1 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. This is the story. I'm Kara Price. 2 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Today I want to spend some time discussing how the 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: Internet has shaped us as individuals. I was exposed to 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: the Internet very early on, with both a techno optimist 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: for a father and attending a school in the early 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: two thousands that insisted every student have a laptop starting 7 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: in fifth grade, I was bred to be chronically online. 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: I started thinking about how this influenced me after reading 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: a new book called Searches Selfhood in the Digital Age. 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: The book is by Jahini Vara, whose debut novel, The 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: Immortal King Raw was a Pulitzer finalist in twenty twenty three. 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: But before diving into creative writing, Vara was a tech reporter. 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: She worked at The Wall Street Journal in the early 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: two thousands, when Silicon Valley was rapidly becoming the force 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: it is today, among the first to cover companies like 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: Facebook and Oracle. VARA's curiosity for tech stayed with her 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: through the years. In twenty twenty one, she wrote Ghosts, 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: an experimental essay where she collaborated with a nascent version 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: of chat GPT to intimately write about her sister's untimely death. 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: When Vara was a teenager. When she wrote Ghosts, being 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: Vulnerable with your chatbot of choice wasn't yet a thing. 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: In her latest book, Searches Self Food in the Digital Age, 23 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: Vara fully dives into how technology has impacted her life 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: in the most intimate ways. She shares the Amazon reviews 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: that she writes to hold herself accountable when buying from 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: the site. She asked chat gpt to review her chapters 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: as she writes them. All of these exercises to help 28 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: her answer a question that haunts many of us. How 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: have we been shaped by the Internet? And that's where 30 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: I started my conversation with Wahini Vara. I wanted to 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: start with something very broad, your relationship to the Internet 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: growing up and how that relationship has changed since then. 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was born in nineteen eighty two, 34 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: so I was in middle school when I first encountered 35 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: the Internet. It was at the home of like these 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 2: family friends where the daughter was my age. She sort 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: of like pulled me into this room with one of 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: those beige desktop computers and was. 39 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: Like, I have something to show you, and. 40 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: You know, opened up a little window, pressed some keys, 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: tapped a button and that like screechy AOL log in 42 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: sound started going like that, and it turned out she 43 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: was showing me what AOL was and what AOL chat 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: rooms were. Where at the time, for those who can 45 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: remember this, like you would just go into these rooms 46 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: in these little kind of windows on your desktop screen 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: and usually kind of like pretend to be whoever you 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: wanted to be, like a version of yourself, but not 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: really your actual offline self. And I found that really enchanting. 50 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: I found it kind of miraculous. I was like this 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: nerdy middle schooler. We had just moved to a suburb 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: of Oklahoma City from Canada. I had very few friends, 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: and it felt really exciting to like get to go 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: online and be whatever I wanted to be without like 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: the encumbrances of who I was offline. 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: You start as someone who is like playing with the 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: early Internet to now being someone who is a tech reporter, 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: a teacher, a novelist. Why, after all this time being online, 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: do you choose to write a book about selfhood in 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: the digital age. 61 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: So the thing that I understand now that I didn't 62 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: understand then is that this idea that I had back 63 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: then that the Internet was like this safe space for 64 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: self exploration, self expression, where like I didn't have to 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: worry about the kinds of power dynamics I had to 66 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: worry about in my middle school halls. Right Like, there 67 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: was a way in which that was true and beautiful, 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: and there's also a way in which it was an 69 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: illusion then, just like it's an illusion now, because actually, 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: anytime I was engaging with a technology company's product, I 71 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: was providing that product with information about me that they 72 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: could then use to go get more wealth and more power. 73 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: And in the book you describe how your own personal 74 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: and professional trajectory unfolded alongside the tech boom of the 75 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: nineties and early two thousands. 76 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: How So, when I was in middle school the eighth grade, 77 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: my family moved to Seattle, and we lived in a 78 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: suburb of Seattle that was one town away from the 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: town where Jeff Bezos and his wife Mackenzie were building 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: Amazon out of their garage, and they would go have 81 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: their meetings at this Barnes and Noble on Bellevue Way, 82 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: which was the same Barnes and Noble where I would 83 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: like go and sit on the carpet and read magazines 84 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,239 Speaker 2: and books. I was very aware of Amazon at the time, 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: I was also aware of Microsoft because one of its 86 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: co founders, Paul Allen, was engaging in this big campaign 87 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: to buy the Seattle Seahawks and was putting a lot 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: of money into this local political campaign that was bound 89 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: up in that, and so I got access to the 90 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: early use of tech money to influence politics, just by 91 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: virtue of growing up in Seattle. I then went to 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: college at Stanford, and I arrived there right after the 93 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: founders of Google had built Google out of Stanford. My 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: senior year of college, Facebook shows up on campus. I'm 95 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: one of the first, like, I don't know, five thousand 96 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: or so users of Facebook, because I happened to be 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: there when Facebook was just getting started. 98 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: It was still really new. Nobody really knew what this 99 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 3: thing was. 100 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: But it took off super super quickly, and by virtue 101 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: of being the news editor at the time, I edited 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: our papers first stories about what Facebook was and how 103 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: it was growing so fast. We interviewed the journalist who 104 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: interviewed Mark Zuckerberg, and already then he was talking about 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: like creating this space where people could connect, which is 106 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: kind of still the rhetoric he uses now, And so 107 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: I kind of like fell into this world of Silicon 108 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: Valley while being at school. 109 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: And then I graduated from. 110 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: College and my first job was as a tech reporter 111 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: at the Wall Street Journal, where I had previously interned, 112 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: and there I ended up in the San Francisco bureau. 113 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: I happened to be the youngest person in the office 114 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: because I was the newest fresh college grad working there. 115 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: And so I ended up saying to my colleagues and 116 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: to my bureau chief, Hey, there's this new company called Facebook, 117 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 2: and we're not really covering it. I think it's worth covering. 118 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: And because they were a private company and actually not 119 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: that influential yet in the grand scheme of things, my 120 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: editor kind of finally relented and was like, Okay, fine, 121 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 2: if you want to cover this Facebook company, go ahead 122 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 2: and cover them. And then fast forward a couple of years. 123 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 2: I ended up becoming actually a little disillusioned, as maybe 124 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: too strong a word, but maybe not with the state 125 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: of the tech industry at the time then, like it 126 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: felt like these companies like Facebook were already growing really fast, 127 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: and you can imagine this future in which that speed 128 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: and wealth and power became a problem. And I think 129 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: we were having a hard time contending with how to 130 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: write about that journalistically. And so what I did was 131 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: I just I took a leave of absence and I 132 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: went and studied creative writing at the Iowa Writers Workshop. 133 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: And I thought I was sort of like leaving this 134 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: tech stuff behind entirely, but apparently I hadn't mentally, because 135 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: I ended up writing this novel about a tech ceo 136 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: who takes over the world. It ended up being kind 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: of like my way of trying to contend with the 138 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: stuff that I couldn't contend with in journalism. 139 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: So tech has been inescapable for you, yeah, for much 140 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: of your well for all of your life, it seems, actually, 141 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: So eventually you would be among the early users of 142 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: chat GPT with a version that looked very different from 143 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: the one we know today. Can you tell me how 144 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: that came about and also how it inspired you to 145 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: write Ghosts, which ultimately became a viral essay back in 146 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. 147 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: So back in like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, I was 148 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: starting to read about this technology that OpenAI was developing, 149 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: which was first called GPT, then GPT two, then GPT three, 150 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: And so when GPT three came around, I wrote to 151 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: Sam Altman, I had previously profiled him for this magazine 152 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: called California Sunday, so I had his number. So I 153 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: texted Sam Altman and I said, hey, I heard that 154 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: you're working on this thing. 155 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 3: Would you give me access to it so I can 156 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: play around with it? 157 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: And he eventually gave me access to it. It worked 158 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: differently from chat GPT back then. So the way it 159 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: worked was the interface was this kind of web app 160 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: where you would type some text and then hit a 161 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: button and then it would just sort of keep writing 162 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: for you. 163 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: It would kind of complete. 164 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 2: That text, and it did that in a way that 165 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: was often kind of like more interesting, I would say, 166 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: than the text that chatchypt produces. It would be more surprising, 167 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: what you might describe as more creative. And the thing 168 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: that came to mind was that it was promising that 169 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: it could provide language for us when we find ourselves 170 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: at a loss for language. And as a writer, there 171 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: aren't that many things where I find myself at a 172 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: loss for language. But a thing that I have always 173 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: struggled to write about, to talk about is the death 174 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: of my sister when we were in college from cancer 175 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: and my grief over it. I think it's like an 176 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: incomprehensible thing to me that happened, And so I wrote 177 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: this sentence that was when I was in my freshman 178 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: year of high school and my sister was in her 179 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: junior year she was diagnosed with e in sarcoma. And 180 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: then I hit the button and it produced this text 181 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: for me that was like, had nothing to do with 182 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: me or my sister. 183 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: Really, it was a story kind. 184 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: Of from the perspective of somebody whose sister had been 185 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: diagnosed with ing sarcoma in high school. But the last 186 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: line of the little story it produced was she's doing 187 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: great now. So it took like this essay that I 188 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: wanted to write about my sister's death and kind of 189 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: wrote something that was the exact opposite of what I 190 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: was interested in. So I kept trying it over and over, 191 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 2: and each time I would like delete the what GPT 192 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: three had written and add more writing of my own. 193 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: And what I found that was that as I wrote more, 194 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: this technology did a relatively better job like kind of 195 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: matching the subject and tone of what I was writing, 196 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: such that there were these lines that it came up 197 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: with that it generated that sounded to me like if 198 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 2: a human had written them would be really well written lines, 199 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: you know, like lines that moved me that I thought 200 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: were really intellectually engaging. And yet ultimately it wasn't expressing 201 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: my experience on my behalf. 202 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: And so by the end of it, why do you 203 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: decide to write the whole thing yourself? 204 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: It kept not describing what it was like to be me, 205 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: to be my sister having this experience right understandably, like 206 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: it sounds silly in retrospect, but of course, like this 207 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: machine that's built to put words one after another based 208 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 2: on statistical predictions about which words should come after which 209 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: other words was not going to somehow reach into my 210 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: soul and express the thing that I couldn't express. And 211 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: then furthermore, like even if it could, I think, for 212 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: me as a writer, what is important is the actual 213 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: act of writing, as the attempt to take something confusing 214 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: and try to articulate it right. And so you know, 215 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: there is it turns out there is no machine that 216 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: can do that for me, right, because the thing that 217 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 2: I'm trying to do is the act of writing it. 218 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: And so ultimately I was the one who had to 219 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 3: do that. 220 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: After the break how to resist big tech stay with us? 221 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: So from your perspective as someone who's been a tech 222 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: journalist for a long time, who teaches creative writing, but 223 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: who also thinks about these things on a really philosophical level. 224 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 1: How do you engage with but not give yourself completely 225 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: over to these seemingly innocuous technologies. 226 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't have a great answer to that question. 227 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: I think that there's a way in which no matter 228 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: what we do, even when we're using these technologies, say 229 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: we're doing Google searches for how to is this big tech? 230 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: Or we're chatting with chat GBT about all the problems 231 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: with chat GBT, or we're organizing our friends on Instagram 232 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: or Facebook or whatever meta owns social network, right to 233 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: take political action. All of those things are really beautiful 234 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: acts of like of self expression in some ways, of resistance. 235 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: Right. 236 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: And it's a fact that those are legitimate forms of 237 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: self expression, of community building, even of resistance. And yet 238 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: each of those actions that I just described benefit the 239 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: companies that we are attempting to resist. 240 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: Right. 241 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: So when I search in Google for how to resist 242 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: big tech, Google then knows that I'm interested in resisting 243 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: big tech, and it can target messages to me based 244 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: on knowing that fact about me, when I organize friends 245 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: on social media for political action, Meta then knows my 246 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: political orientation and can target messages to me based on 247 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: what it knows about my background. And so any self expression, 248 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: any community action that takes place in these platforms that 249 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: sort of necessarily bound up with them. Interestingly, I'm finding 250 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: this with my book as well. Like I published this 251 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: book thinking of it as a critique, I still think 252 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: of this book as as being a book that contains 253 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: a critique of big tech and uses big technology companies 254 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: products to make that critique. 255 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: But a lot of the headlines that. 256 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: Have appeared about my book and some of the interview 257 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: questions I've gotten have said things like, you know, this 258 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: author collaborated with chat GBT to explore her selfhood. Or 259 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: I've been asked questions like, so what did chat GBT 260 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: teach you about yourself that you didn't already know? 261 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: Right? 262 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: And so it turns out that my book itself, which 263 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: I constructed as a critique, the life of the book, 264 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: like the public life of the book, turns out to 265 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: also be bound up in that that sort of complicit 266 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: relationship that we have with these companies, which at first 267 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: I found really upsetting and now I find kind of 268 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: kind of fascinating. 269 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: The description of collaborating with AI has become a very 270 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: common way of describing how we interact with it. At 271 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: face value, it makes sense, especially in cases where someone 272 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: is approaching it to work through something that in the 273 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: past would have happened with someone else, like a creative 274 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: idea or an emotional problem. So what do you think 275 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: of this description of collaborating with a large language model. 276 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: You know, there's an extent to which we talk on 277 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: Google and we talk on Meta's social media platforms about 278 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: like the problems we're facing, our deepest, darkest secrets. But 279 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: my sense is that people are going even further with 280 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: CHATDBT and products like that in doing that because they 281 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: have the impression that they're talking to something that is 282 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: like another right, but doesn't have the baggage of actual 283 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: human beings. 284 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: Right. 285 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: So we might be talking to chat GPT and feeling 286 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: like it's using the language that our therapists might and 287 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: giving us good advice. 288 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: Right. 289 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: But whereas with our therapist, we pay our therapists, and 290 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 2: our therapist's job is to help us understand something about ourselves, 291 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: and they have training in order to do that well. 292 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: Chat GPT's job is to get information from us, is 293 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: to get us to keep using the product, to like 294 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: the product, to use it more and more. And so 295 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: I think that's why that term collaboration is really problematic. 296 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: It's a term that people like Samul and the CEO 297 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: of open Ai are using a lot. 298 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: I think partly. 299 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: Because they used to say things like AI is going 300 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: to take over all our jobs, are going to be 301 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: any jobs left. Nowadays they talk more about collaboration. They say, 302 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: don't worry, AI is not going to get rid of 303 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: all of us. What's going to happen is that it's 304 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: going to be a really helpful tool we can use 305 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: in our daily lives. It's going to be a collaborator. 306 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: It's going to be helpful, It's going to be useful. 307 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 2: They use language like that a lot, which I think 308 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: is meant to kind of defying the threat of AI 309 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: taking our jobs, right or AI consolidating more wealth and 310 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: power in the hands of people who already have it. 311 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: Given that you did use artificial intelligence at points in 312 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: your book, and I can imagine that tech companies would 313 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: love to claim that you collaborated with AI and it 314 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: helped you explore your selfhood. Do you think they can 315 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: do that? 316 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: Well, It's complicated because using artificial intelligence products in the 317 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: book helps me show what the promise is that these 318 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: companies behind the products are making to us, and what 319 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: we as users do in response to those products, like 320 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: how we engage with those products in response to those promises, 321 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: and also help me show how those promises fall short 322 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: and how ultimately the way in which we're engaging with 323 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 2: these products is bound. 324 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 3: Up in the exploitation of us. 325 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: That was what I was interested in showing by using 326 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: the products in the book. A critical reader will read 327 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: the book and see that, For example, when I ask, 328 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, image generation products from companies like Microsoft and 329 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: open ai to generate images to go along with stories 330 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 2: I'm telling about my mom's childhood in rural India, like, 331 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: those images are not factual representations, unbiased representations, representations that 332 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: bear any relationship with the reality of my mom's experience. 333 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: Right, Like I think, I think. 334 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: I expect readers to see that and think, Okay, I 335 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: see that. I understand what's happening here, right, I understand 336 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: that there's a critique here. 337 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 3: I don't believe that these. 338 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: Products, due to any significant extent, help with self expression, 339 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: help with you know, communication with others, and so that 340 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: was not something I was particularly interested in exploring. However, 341 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: I was interested in the promise these companies were making 342 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 2: that their products could do that. 343 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: Yet we seem to be moving more towards a future 344 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: where people believe that their self expression is bolstered by 345 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: these products. How do we resist the belief that these 346 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: products are actually like aiding in our self expression. 347 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a bigger problem that these 348 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: companies are exploiting. I think there's a bigger problem in 349 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: society in which the kind of like dominant cultures are 350 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: held up as like and dominant sort of ways of 351 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: expressing oneself and communicating are held up as like the 352 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: best ways. So, for example, chat GBT they have this 353 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: kind of style guide that's public and they open a 354 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: eye does and they explain how chat GPT works, and 355 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 2: they say that chat GPT is built to sound kind 356 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: of like a colleague, you know, at an office, presumably 357 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: like a white collar office. It's meant to be polite, 358 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: it's meant to be empathetic, it's meant to be rationally, 359 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: rationally optimistic, I think is the phrase. So they are 360 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: all these ways that chat gypt is built to use 361 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: language that itself is political, right, like the fact that 362 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: they're saying this is how chat GPT should talk, and 363 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: the way it should talk should be like this sort 364 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: of like, you know, the language tends to be American English, right, 365 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: like like office building, white collar American English, because chat 366 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: GPT talks that way, and because chat gbt is held 367 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: up as something that can help us with our writing. 368 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: What chat GPT is really doing when we go to 369 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 2: chat gbt and say, hey, I wrote this, can you 370 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 2: help me make it better? Which is embedded with this 371 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: assumption that we also have in our broader culture that 372 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: like a certain kind of like corporate, white collar, like 373 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: you know, white guy in the cubicle next door kind 374 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: of language is like the best kind of language to use. 375 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: I write in the book about how my dad has 376 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: this habit of like writing me emails and then having 377 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: chat GPT edit them and then sending me the edited version, 378 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: And he wrote this perfectly well written, well reasoned email 379 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: to me at one point in which he uses this phrase. 380 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: You know, he says something like you have to talk 381 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: to people to understand where they're coming from. 382 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 3: Then only can you. 383 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 2: Can you write well about their experiences something like that. 384 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: The chat GBT version inverted the then and the only, 385 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: So the chat GBT changed it to you have to talk, 386 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: you have to spend time with people and understand their experiences. 387 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: Only then can you understand what they went through. And 388 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: the interesting thing about that to me is that then 389 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: only is a very common and very correct construction in 390 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: Indian English, and my dad's from India. Only then is 391 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: American English. And so chat GBT is like purportedly improving 392 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: my Dad's English, but what it's actually doing is just 393 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: turning my Dad's English into American English. And there's this 394 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: like value judgment embedded in that that that American English 395 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: is a better English, right, And so I think when 396 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: we turn to these kinds of products and think that 397 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: they're improving our self expression, like that's not actually what 398 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: they are designed to do. They're designed to like use 399 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 2: a certain kind of language, and so yes, they can 400 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: turn our language into that, but of course, like I 401 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: both question the usefulness of that in self expression, and 402 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: I worry that if there's a future in which, like 403 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: we all start to talk like that, it's going to 404 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: be like culturally problematic, politically problematic, they're all kinds of 405 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 2: issues that are eyes. 406 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: If that happens, I want to go to another I 407 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: think very important piece of your book, which you know 408 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: has to do with the handwringing over AI taking jobs 409 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: of creative workers. To what extent do large language models 410 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: threaten our current definition of what a novel is? And 411 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: do you think it's important that people like yourself, people 412 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: who write both fiction and nonfiction, consider the way in 413 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: which large language models might affect not only writers, I think, 414 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: but more importantly readers and what readers expect from the 415 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: written word. 416 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I love that question because I think 417 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: a lot of scholars of the novel would argue that 418 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: what makes a novel a novel is its novelty and typically, 419 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: like I think, as a culture, historically, what we've celebrated 420 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: in the novel is like finding new ways to express 421 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: ourselves as human beings. So I think AI has come 422 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: along at a moment in which that has been complicated 423 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: by commercial changes to and commercial pressures on the book, 424 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: on the novel and other forms of literature, where the 425 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: publishing industry has become more and more consolidated and dominated 426 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: by just a few companies that do you know, want 427 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: to turn a profit, and because of that, are increasingly 428 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: publishing things that. 429 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: Are going to do well on Amazon. 430 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: And finding that the things that do well on Amazon 431 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: on our books that are not particularly unconventional, that do 432 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: like follow certain well worn paths, Like if the goal 433 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: of a book isn't to find some new way of 434 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: expressing something, but rather to like follow a formula, that 435 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: is something that I think a large language model could 436 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: be trained to do. 437 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: That said, I think all kinds. 438 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: Of readers, including readers of the sort of genre books 439 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: like romance and fantasy that are thought of as following 440 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: certain genres, have a lot of room for experimentation. Like 441 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: they want to see something new, they want to see 442 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: something human feeling in what they're reading. They want to 443 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: know that there's an actual human being behind the text. 444 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 2: And so I think I think like the future of 445 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: books is really going to be determined in some ways 446 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: by readers more than writers, because they're the ones who 447 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: buy the books and create the market. 448 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: And so to sort of answer the question about how 449 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: one exercises autonomy in an age of increasingly less agency, 450 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: just because we're all sort of trapped in this bubble 451 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: of technology that's been created around us that we now 452 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: have to use. It's about kind of insisting on the 453 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: type of stories, information, images, movies, TV shows, poetry, whatever 454 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: it may be, insisting that it's human centered and human created. 455 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: Like that seems to be where the autonomy lies. 456 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the thing that I find really exciting 457 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: is like, we as human beings, as communities, can create 458 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: whatever future we want, right Like, there are certain futures 459 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: that big technology companies are invested in moving us toward, 460 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: but we can be invested in something totally different. In fact, 461 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: we can be invested in something that's in resistance to 462 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: what they want for our. 463 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: Future, and we can build that. 464 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: And Yeah, I think it has partly to do with 465 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 2: the things we choose to engage with, the things we 466 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: choose to spend our time. 467 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 3: On, how we. 468 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: Choose to connect with friends, with family members, with community members, 469 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: right Like, all of those things are important. 470 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: We can also think about our choice of products. 471 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: Right An example I like to give because it's an 472 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: easy one to wrap our heads around is Wikipedia. 473 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 3: Wikipedia is the seventh most. 474 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 2: Visited website in the world, and it's run by a 475 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: foundation It doesn't cost that much to run it, relatively speaking, 476 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: and it's built on volunteer labor. But that volunteer laborer 477 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 2: I don't think of as exploited labor, because everybody is 478 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: sort of coming together to provide this communal service that 479 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: everyone can benefit from, and nobody is trying to make 480 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: a buck off of it. What I mean is there 481 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: is no corporation behind Wikipedia that is trying to use 482 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: Wikipedia as a tool tom. 483 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 3: As wealth to a mass power. 484 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: And so there are lots of different kinds of entities 485 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: like that building technologies that we can think of as 486 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: potential models. We can put our funds together, as communities, 487 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 2: as individuals, as workers, as users. 488 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: We can build things. 489 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: In new ways and not have them be bound up 490 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 2: in you know, technological capitalism in the way that our 491 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: dominant technologies are right now. 492 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think, what's one of the things that 493 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: I find, I don't know, I guess so deeply disconcerting 494 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: is this idea that publishers are now allowing for the 495 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: training of large language models on their pre existing content. 496 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: I think, again, you know, where does autonomy factor in? 497 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: It's now like a new point of contention for both 498 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 1: union workers and well, mostly union workers actually to say, like, 499 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: to what extent do I get to participate in the 500 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: way in which my company does business? 501 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that's something that's really hard about this, 502 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: because you know, I hear sometimes from people who are like, 503 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: you know, I am a teacher and I don't want 504 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 2: to use AI, but my district says that we should. 505 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: Or more commonly, I work at a company. I have 506 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: questions about AI or concerns, but my bosses that I 507 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: need to use it. 508 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 3: Right, What then do you do? And listen? 509 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: I think they're perfectly legitimate uses of these products, of 510 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: products that sort of fall under the AI umbrella, by 511 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: the way, But for those who are interested in resisting 512 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 2: use of these products, who happen to get paid by 513 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: institutions that say, no, you have to use these products, 514 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: like that puts you in a pretty tight spot. I 515 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: think autonomy is very bound up in knowledge, right. I 516 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: mean I write in my book a lot about like 517 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: these gaps and knowledge between big technology companies and us. 518 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 3: But one meaningful thing that we. 519 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: Can do is collect information about how these companies actually 520 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: function as ourselves, questions about like what these companies are 521 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: promising with their products, what they're actually delivering what we're 522 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: delivering to them, and how they might make money from that, 523 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: how that might help them a mass more power. Right, 524 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 2: Just to sort of like ask ourselves questions and understand 525 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: the dynamics that are underlying our use of these products, 526 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: I think is a really valuable thing to do because 527 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: I think you know, for many of us, once we 528 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: understand these dynamics, we feel that we're in a better 529 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: position to enact individual or collective resistance. 530 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: One of the things that I thought was so interesting 531 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: about your book is like, in a certain way, it's 532 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: sort of a self help guide for people who are online, 533 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: right in that like you're asking the reader to think 534 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: about the history of themselves online because you're considering the 535 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: history of yourself online. And so, what are the most 536 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: profound ways in which the Internet and the kind of 537 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: ensuing AI powered internet. H How has it changed your 538 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: life and your idea of selfhood? 539 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean. 540 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: These products have given me sights of self expression, of 541 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 2: communication and communion with other people, have allowed me to 542 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: gain more information about the world about myself, have made. 543 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: My life more convenient. All of these things are true. 544 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: And with each of those things that I just mentioned 545 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: there is a significant cost, and that cost is really 546 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 2: hard to see, and so I think experiencing life with 547 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: these products. But I think, even more importantly, just like 548 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: writing it all down in this book has helped me 549 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: to clarify for myself, like just how bound up the 550 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: things that I get out of these products are with 551 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: the exploitation of myself and of all of us and 552 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: our planet. And the reason I wanted to write about 553 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: this wasn't because I thought anybody should care, particularly about 554 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: my own experience. It was that I know that other 555 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: people are like me. I know that there are other 556 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: people who know all the problems with Amazon and still 557 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: use Amazon, who know about the problems with Google and 558 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: still use Google. And I wanted to talk really frankly 559 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: about my own complicity as a way to kind of 560 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: like open this window for all of us, for readers 561 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 2: to have a conversation about our collective complicity and figure 562 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: out what to do about it, because I don't think 563 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: I come out of the book with an answer to 564 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: the question and now what we should we do about it? 565 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: In part because I don't think that I want to 566 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: be this sort of like single authority figure, like a 567 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: kind of like you know, twin to a Sam Altman, right, 568 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: who has so much conviction about his about the future. 569 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: I don't want to be standing here saying and here 570 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: is the one single future we should move toward, and 571 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: here are the five steps we should take to get there. 572 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: It want us all to be interested in our own complicity. 573 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to me, and I 574 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: just I think your book is such an interesting exploration 575 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: of digital life and one that I think if someone 576 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: isn't thinking about, they're not thinking enough. 577 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This was a 578 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 3: really interesting conversation. 579 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: For tech Stuff, I'm Cara Price. This episode was produced 580 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia. It was executive produced 581 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: by me Oswa Wasshan and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and 582 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode 583 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on 584 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: Friday for the week in tech Oz and I will 585 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: run through the tech headlines you may have missed. Please rate, review, 586 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at 587 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: gmail dot com.