1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. As many of you know, 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: I spent three and a half years living in Rome 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: while Calista served as ambassador to the Holy See. In 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: our time there, we met so many fascinating people, some 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: of whom were American expatriates who now live in Rome 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: full time. My guest today is somebody who had introduced 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: us to Rome many years ago, a very close personal 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: friend and a brilliant person. Elizabeth Love, or Liz as 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: we call her. She is someone we got to know 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: long before we got to Rome. Officially, she's an art historian. 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: She has an amazing ted talk on the Sistine Chapel. 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: She's been working as a guide in Rome for over 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: twenty years and I recommend her very highly. And she 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: teaches at Duquenne University's Italian campus as well as the 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinace. She is just a 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: remarkable teacher who is great fund has great energy, as 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: a ton of ideas, and she's currently teaching a course 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: on the Sistine Chapel. And when she told me that, 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: I begged her to join us for this conversation to 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: talk about our mutual love of Rome. It's our history, 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: cuisine and people and encourage all of our listeners. If 22 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: you haven't been to Rome, added to your bucket list. 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: It is an unbelievable city. Les. Welcome and thank you 24 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: for joining me on the News World. Thank you so 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: much for having me and for inviting me to talk 26 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: about my favorite subject. Well and as I understand that 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: you are on a tour today, yes, I was. What 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: is that like? You must have occasional stories about the 29 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: tour the you lead. I think after twenty years of tours, 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: I think these stories of touring are what we might 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: describe as legion. Today I was taking around a group 32 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: of priests. There are very few things as fun as 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: taking around a group of priests because it allows us 34 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: to talk about the secondary and the tertiary levels of understanding. 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: So instead of having to stop and explain there's a 36 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: guy named Jesus, instead we can really start playing around 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: with deeper meanings and what things might mean and how 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: we could maybe have different prisms of how to look 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: at the Sistine Chapel. So that was a very lovely experience. 40 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: But then being the person to take a young person 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: to the Sistine Chapel for the very first time, as another. 42 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary honor and privilege because it's that moment, 43 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: that really rare and special moment of seeing eyes open 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: as they look at this work of art and it 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: speaks to them. So there are so many wonderful things 46 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: that have happened, and my really fun job. It's just 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: a wealth of happy memories. So you've got a de 48 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: grief near Verse of Chicago, then came to Bologna do 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: gradual work there, and I gather you fell in love 50 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: with Italy and couldn't leave. Yes, Vella know with Italy. 51 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: It's true. I always loved Europe and I loved France, 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: and then later Italy I think, sort of swept me 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: off my feet. So I was always very interested in Europe. 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: It just goes back to reading a lot of European 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: based novels when I was young. But the real seduction 56 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: for me for Italy was the way that I was 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: taught to study art in the graduate program at the 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: University of Bologna, which was very different from the graduate 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: program at University of Chicago. The University of Chicago had 60 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: a very formal analysis, which means that everything in how 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: the work presents itself visually is what we talk about. 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: So we're kind of dissecting where the idea for a 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: certain figure, a composition and use of color comes from. 64 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: Whereas the School of Bologna was very interested in what 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: wine people would call the teroi of a work of art. 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: So what is the soil that produces it, what are 67 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: people reading, what are people thinking about, what is happening 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: in the society, and that that will produce a work 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: of art that is unique to the place where it's found. 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: And that particular methodology when eventually I came to Rome 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: and started doing tours and began to think in terms of, okay, 72 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: what is the soil of the Sistine Chapel, to begin 73 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: to realize how rich that soil was. It gave me 74 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: the possibility of seeing the Sistine Chapel in a way 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: that I was never able to see it to the 76 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: purely formal approach of the University of Chicago, and that 77 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: I opening experience kind of like a drug. I really 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: I wanted to be here where this way of thinking 79 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: about art was something that would not be looked down 80 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: upon by academia, but was actually considered a very serious 81 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: strain of academic approach. As I understand it when you 82 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: came down to finish your thesis, which was on the 83 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: Church will send Giovanni and Petronio in Rome. Suddenly you 84 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: realized you had to live in Rome, that you couldn't 85 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: be you if you weren't in Rome. Explained that often. 86 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I quote that line of Queen Christina of Sweden couldn't 87 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: live another day if I didn't live it in Rome, 88 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: which is funny because my first impression of Rome when 89 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: I first went to Bologna back in nineteen eighty seven 90 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: or so, I came to Rome and I thought it 91 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: was a filthy, dirty, horrible city. And I remember getting 92 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: on the train to go back to Bologna and saying, oh, 93 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: good heavens, I hope I never have to go back 94 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: to that place. But then after I returned and my 95 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: thesis topic brought me back to Rome and came down 96 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: frequently to use the libraries and the archives, and the 97 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: amazing feeling if I'd be reading something in the archive 98 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: and then I would think, hey, I could just walk 99 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: down the street and go see it. And this immediacy, 100 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: that sense of being so much closer to the time 101 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: and the age and the era and the people who 102 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: produced these works of art. Again. It was addictive. I 103 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: wanted to be here where I can read about Bernini 104 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: and then two minutes later I can go see him. 105 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: I can see Caravajo's work and Karachi's work, and I 106 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: can see their teams and their rivalries around the city. 107 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: You can't substitute it elsewhere. It's something about on site 108 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: study really is an advantage. I have to say, as 109 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: a historian who was deeply interested in Imperial Rome, every 110 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: time I walk the streets, I have this chilling feeling 111 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: of being a part of history in a way that 112 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: I can't think of any other city that quite has 113 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: that density of historic experience. I agree with you entirely. 114 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: It's part of history and the way history seems to 115 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: flow through you. So you are part of this huge 116 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: stream of history, and it goes back to this origin 117 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: of this city. It goes beyond me and what will 118 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: happen in the future, and it's being part of this 119 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: very intense and alive current of something that grows and continues, 120 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: and it gives you a real sense of belonging, which 121 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: is a unique, very very beautiful feeling. So many of 122 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: our listeners may get excited by this and decide to 123 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: go to Rome, in your judgment, one of the top 124 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: two or three things they should absolutely make sure that 125 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: they see or do well. I think if you're coming 126 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: to Rome for the first time, you really must see 127 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: the ancient city. You must see the remains of the 128 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: ancient city. A lot of things make sense to you, 129 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: the way that the Romans organized this ancient city, with 130 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,239 Speaker 1: their religious access, their socioeconomic access, the way the city 131 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: changed as these different forms of government changed. The haunting 132 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: image of the Colosseum, the sheer size people can describe 133 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: it to you. But when you're standing outside the Colosseum, 134 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 1: which is two thousand years old, and you just see 135 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: how big and monumental it is, and you think about 136 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: a people who built to leave their mark on eternity. 137 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: It's an essential part of understanding Rome. And from there 138 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: you see the shift into the world of the Vatican 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: or Saint Peter's in the Sistine Chapel, in the Vatican 140 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: muse But it's amazing how that world that Roman Empire 141 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: will morph. It will eventually the Renaissance will pick up 142 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: those fallen pieces of the Roman Empire and create their 143 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: own monumentality, which you see in Saint Peter's Basilica, which 144 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: is a unique, absolutely amazing church. Annexed to it is 145 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: this chapel, this repository of some of the greatest painting 146 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the world has ever seen in the Sistine Chapel, and 147 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: then annexed to that are the papal apartments painted by Raphael. 148 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: It really is almost too much if you're giving me 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: three sites. The third is my favorite place to go 150 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: when you just want to calm down, just like the 151 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: cardinals did once upon a time, they would head out 152 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: onto the Pinsion Hill to visit the beautiful villa of 153 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: Shipioni Borghese. And there in that gallery, with the sculptures 154 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: of Bernini and the paintings of Raphael and Caravajo and Matitian, 155 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: that is a place of otsio, of leisure, of joyful relaxation. Well, 156 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: and I have to throw in from my more childish side. 157 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: It also has a really fine zoo right down the 158 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: street from the Borghese. The Borghesi, to me is one 159 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: of the most astonishingly beautiful collections in the world. Obviously, 160 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: the Patican Museum is massively bigger and has stunning things, 161 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: but the Borghesi has a kind of delicate beauty to 162 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: it that I find endlessly appealing. It also is beautiful 163 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: because of its reflection of basically it's one person's taste 164 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: that maybe the building itself has changed slightly in the 165 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, but the amassing of the original works is 166 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: the reflection of one man who had the vision and 167 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: had the power to do this, and Cardinal Shipione Borghese's 168 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: taste in his sensitivity to art, heralds this brand new period, 169 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: which is the age of the Baroque. So you see 170 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: through the work of a patron, through these genius artists, 171 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: in this creation of a whole new style happening in 172 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: one space. It's like being in the ultimate laboratory of art, 173 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: and you're standing in the Borghese. Well. Now, twenty eighteen 174 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: you wrote a book which you allowed me to take 175 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: an early look at, which I found absolutely fascinating, entitled 176 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: How Catholic Art Saved the Faith. And I think this 177 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: is a really useful kind of entry point to get 178 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: to talking about the Sistine Chapel, but talk for a 179 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: couple of minutes about how the Church consciously built a 180 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: strategy of appealing to people through art. Thank you very much, 181 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: by the way, for the nice things you said about 182 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: my book or encouraging, and the book itself is the 183 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: fruit of two things. One is my doctoral thesis. The 184 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: thrust of it was a discussion of the Reformation art. 185 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: The other part is the fruit of teaching class of 186 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: broke art at Ducane University for twenty years and trying 187 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: to explain to these students what holds these works together. 188 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: And this body of work that is basically produced between 189 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: fifteen seventy and let's say sixteen fifty sixteen sixty, this 190 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: body of work is a very interesting collaboration between the 191 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: Church in various forms, whether it's confraternity, popes, cardinals, bishops, 192 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: the church forming and patronizing artists so that artists will 193 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: produce works of art that will help address issues that 194 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: the Church is facing in this particular period. So it's 195 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: a very very rich period in the sense that artists 196 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: are being offered the possibility to really proclaim great truths, 197 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: great things through their art. And so we see people 198 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: like Caravajo who are participating in the idea of cooperating 199 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: with salvation when he produces the amazing acts of mercy 200 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: in Naples, or artists like Bernini who shows us images 201 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: of the art of dying well. And so in these 202 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: different categories and questions that the Catholic Church finds itself 203 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: trying to defend and explain its faith, it understands that 204 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: art is one of the most potent vehicles for helping 205 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: people or to persuade people, and it recruits these great artists, 206 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: forms them, and then unleashes them into the world to 207 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: leave us this amazing body of art, which is this 208 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: counter reformation into the Baroque. It's very striking the sheer 209 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: genius of that period in terms of art. I've always 210 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: wondered how it came together that you had that handful 211 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: of people who still today five hundred years later, tower 212 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: above us and inspire us, and achieved an ability to 213 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: evoke the world and what's in many ways a romantic 214 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: kind of way that people before them came close but 215 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: didn't get there, and people after them came close but 216 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: didn't get there. Why do you think you had this 217 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: intersection with that many extraordinary artists. I think the circumstances 218 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: of creating a very desirable prize in the world of 219 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: art is what drew so many talents, allowing patrons, allowing 220 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: the public to really sift through and allow the greats 221 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: to rise to the top. If you just have a 222 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: couple of people dabbling in art because it's something that 223 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: they feel called to do, but there's no real incentive 224 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: to really give your all to art, to live and 225 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: die for art, it's a lot harder that you're going 226 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: to find these geniuses coming to the foe. But given 227 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: the fact that the place where you could achieve fame, 228 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: you could achieve status. You could become a voice of authority, 229 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: and you're not some dauber on a wall, but you 230 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: become a voice that stands alongside preachers as mute theologians. 231 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: As Cardinal Palialti put it, the fact is that that 232 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: was an opportunity to shine that drew so many talents, 233 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: and then once those talents were all compressed into the 234 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: same couple of cities, they had to compete with one 235 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: another again, producing even greater and greater work. They become 236 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: more daring, they look for their individual styles. Nobody has 237 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: time to sit back on their artistic laurels because the 238 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: next guy's coming right up behind you. And so I 239 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: think this is kind of the formula for excellence that 240 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: the late sixteenth early seventeenth century was able to produce 241 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: and not to mention the fact that it's such a 242 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: fabulous time for crossroads of science of discovery. I mean, 243 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: think of what's happening in this period. The entire world 244 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: is opening up, so they've circumnavigated the globe, and you 245 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: have information and people's and embassies coming in from all 246 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: over the world for the very first time. A sensitive 247 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: person like an artist is feeding off this universality that's happening. 248 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: You have Galileo pointing at tele scope towards the heavens 249 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: and the human eye can see things that the human 250 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: eye was never able to see before. How can that 251 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: not be exciting and inspiring to an artist, as the 252 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: artist has offered the possibility to be a kind of 253 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: telescope to the heavens. I'll show you something you've never 254 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: seen before. So I think it was a perfect storm 255 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: that happened in that period. All of these guys, because 256 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: it was their passion, they do it their whole lives. 257 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: I think Michael Angelos wasn't his early eighties when he's 258 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: designing the dome for Saint Peter's. Yeah, he's working on 259 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: the dome in his eighties. Dies three weeks shy of 260 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: his ninetieth birthday working on the dome. He is extraordinarily 261 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: broad in his interest, although he's a little bit more 262 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: limited than da Vinci, who is sort of this autodidact 263 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: across everything. But between the two of them, their level 264 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: of invention and ingenuity is blowing things away. It's extraordinarily 265 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: different than anything which had gone before. And yet my 266 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: sense is, at least in the case of Michelangelo, the 267 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: discoveries looking not only up to the sky but looking 268 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: back into the past. The discovery of Greek and Roman 269 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: statues and of various things coming out of the ancient 270 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: world had suddenly widened the possibility of thinking about how 271 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: to perform in a way that would not have been truely, say, 272 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: two hundred years earlier. Absolutely, the rediscovery of these ancient works, 273 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: particularly works like the Apollo Belvedere contained in the Vatican Museums, 274 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: and most famously the Layakawan, the first century sculpture of 275 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: the Trojan priest that was discovered or identified by Michelangelo 276 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: and his friend Julianna Sangallo in fifteen oh six, they 277 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: are as you might describe, game changers that takes us 278 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: back to the period of the Renaissance, where the Renaissance 279 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: starts to dig back in the past and they try 280 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: to find ways of using the beauty of the past 281 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: in order to enhance their present. So in the case 282 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: of the age of Michelangelo, he's actually coming at the 283 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: culmination of this period that in many ways begins with 284 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: people like Thomas Aquinas who successfully capture Aristotle for Christendom 285 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: so that people can use the ideas of Aristotle, even 286 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: though Aristotle is a pagan philosopher. Then the next thing 287 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, you see the artists borrowing different motifs. Then 288 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: you see the popes collecting this kind of ancient art 289 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: and putting artists in front of it. And then we 290 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: see the artists building on these ideas and creating whole 291 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: new compositions using the beauty, the order, the drama, the 292 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: elegance of the ancient world, so using that sort of 293 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: formal affection of the ancient world, but the substance becomes 294 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: completely Christian. And then Michelangelo lives long enough to see 295 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: that hit its apex and then start to move into 296 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: this new age where new things are happening, and this 297 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: period of discovery. In this period of new knowledge, so 298 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: he actually lives long enough he bridges both great phases 299 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: of the Renaissance, and in his case, my impression is 300 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 1: he really starts out as a sculptor. Oh. Absolutely. He 301 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: was first trained briefly as a painter, his father probably 302 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: hoping that Michelangelo would just take the normal curses honorum 303 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: of artists, meaning that he would be apprenticed to a 304 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: successful studio, he would become good at his job, the 305 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: studio head in this case, Domenico Gerlandio, would lean on 306 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: him and eventually michael Angelo would take over the studio 307 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: and he would be a successful businessman. And that was 308 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: the father's limited aspirations. Michel Angelo, who's the only source 309 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: of Michelangelo's life is Michelangelo, so he always have to 310 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: take it with a bit of a grain of salt. 311 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: Clearly clearly had very other ideas about what he was 312 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: destined to be, and so as soon as he saw 313 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: an opportunity, he left the painting school, probably around age fifteen, 314 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: and he began training as a sculptor, and within a 315 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: few years, by the time he was twenty three, he 316 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: had landed a commission to make the Pieta which is 317 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: in Saint Peter's Basilica, and then hard on the heels 318 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: of the Pieta, he gets the commission for the David. 319 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: And it's right after David completed in fifteen oh fourth 320 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: that he gets called to Rome by Julius the second 321 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: again to produce a sculptural tomb. Because michel Angelo had 322 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: focused his attention. He was famous as a sculptor, he 323 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: had produced famous sculptures. So obviously, if Julius the second 324 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: had invited him to Rome to come and paint a ceiling, 325 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: Michael Angelo would have said something along the lines of 326 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: do you not know what I do? What are you 327 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: talking of? So the invitation was actually to produce what 328 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: was planned to be an extraordinary tomb, a monument that 329 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: would have been freestanding and would have rivaled the Seven 330 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: Wonders of the ancient world. I remember you took Calistomy 331 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: and we had this marvelous opportunity to see the Pieta, 332 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: and the idea that he could have carved that at 333 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: that age and had it so exquisite. I mean, that 334 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: could almost be the peak of a normal person's life, 335 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: and for him it's the beginning that's just astonishing. It 336 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: was just standing in front of the copy of it 337 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: today in the Vatican Museums, and it came to my 338 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: mind for the millionth time. It's amazing how perfectly thought 339 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: out that work is for a twenty three year old, 340 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: and perfectly thought out in the way the body is 341 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: going to be rendered. So he's so confident of himself 342 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: that he takes what is fundamentally a Greco Roman style body. 343 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: The body of Jesus in this work is clearly styled 344 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: after a statue of a Greco Roman god. But then 345 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: he adds these touches that come from the observation of 346 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: a lifeless person, so he takes the paradigm of the 347 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: Greek immortal God, and then he makes the God lifeless 348 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: with these very poignant images of a slumped shoulder or 349 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: these muscles that are slumped in the thigh. In certain 350 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: sense that the arrogance of being able to say, those 351 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: ancient people, I have nothing to say to them. I 352 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: just I'm going to take this idea. I'm going to 353 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: apply my own idea. And then the theological acumen that 354 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: is implied in that work by the way that Jesus's 355 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: body is polished so that he becomes Christ, the light, 356 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: the way the body looks like it's going to fall 357 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: on the altar. It reminds me of that story or 358 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: the mythological idea that Minerva sprang complete out of the 359 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: head of Jupiter, so that it's almost like where did 360 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: this from? Michelangelo's art just sprang complete out of nowhere, 361 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: and it isn't really an indication of a man who 362 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: was clearly destined to do great things. I often say 363 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: that when you look at the Pieta, you understand why 364 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: Rome put Michelangelo on a retractable leash at this point, 365 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: because how far away would you let a guy get 366 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: who can do that kind of stuff at age twenty three? 367 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: And he goes from that, which is a very delicate, 368 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: very kind of human moment of Mary holding her dead son, 369 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: and he turns around. He goes back to Florence and 370 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: builds this gigantic statue of the David, which in many 371 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: ways is almost the antithesis. It's huge, he's muscled, he's powerful. 372 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: You can imagine that he of course would have killed Goliath, 373 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: because why would he be afraid of Goliath? And every 374 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: time I've gone to the Academia and seen it, I've 375 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: just been startled by how powerful a figure it is, 376 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: and what a stunning comparison it is to the Pieta. 377 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: The data is an interesting one because, yes, David is 378 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: a colossal statue. It's seventeen feet tall, it's six tons, 379 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: It's a statue meant for an exterior position. It's a 380 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: statue that was made not for a chapel, but it's 381 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: made for the Republic of Florence. So they're very, very different. 382 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: And yet there is a very interesting way that the 383 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: two are united, and they are united through this strange 384 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: dichotomy in the work in the Body of Jesus, in 385 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: the Pieta, we see the body that is evidently meant 386 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: to be that of a Greek god, and yet we 387 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: see these signs of a lifeless man. In the case 388 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: of David, we see this colossal, muscle bound, powerful figure. 389 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: At our first glance is, of course, you look at 390 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: a seventeen foot tall David and you think, how big 391 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: was Goliath? Right? What's the problem here? And you start 392 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: to feel sorry for Goliath in the story. So having 393 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: done that, since the whole point of the David's story 394 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: is that there is no way David could have defeated Goliath, 395 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: Michelangelo's new problem is how do we show the vulnerability 396 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: the weakness of David. And he does it in two 397 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: very interesting ways. One is the strange proportions of the body. 398 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: So if you put David next to a classical Greek sculpture, 399 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: let's say the Apollo we were just talking about, David 400 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: will come across as stranger and stranger, with his excessively 401 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: long legs, his very big hands, his gigantic head on 402 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: top of a small neck. All of those proportions are 403 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: distorted as opposed to the perfect and elegant proportions that 404 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: you see in a classical sculpture. And by elongating and 405 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: giving us this strange, awkward series of body parts, he 406 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: might us that David, at the end of the day, 407 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: he was an adolescent boy. He's giving us the potential 408 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: of David, that seventeen footman he's going to grow into, 409 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: but then he hasn't quite grown into it yet, and 410 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 1: you have that awkwardness of transformation. The second way michael 411 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: Angelo makes David more human is to give us that 412 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: furrowed brow as he stares off into the distance. David 413 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: is worried. He looks into the distance with a furrow 414 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: in his brow, a concern about what's coming. So it's 415 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: a very very interesting system he used where he gives 416 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: us monumentality and vulnerability in the same work. And I 417 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: think that's why David, of all the naked statues that 418 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: we have all over the place in Italy, that's why 419 00:25:48,560 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: David stands out. So I have this guy now who 420 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: has had two extraordinary successes as a sculptor. He ends 421 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: up in Rome and Julius second says, Oh, by the way, 422 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: now it's your turn, because this is what you're teaching. 423 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: How does it happen? He says to michel Angelo, build 424 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: me this tomb. And michel Angelo starts work on the tomb, 425 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: he finds the Layacawan. Everything is going amazingly well, and 426 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: then suddenly the money dries up. And there's michel Angelo 427 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: who's so convinced he's supposed to be making this tomb 428 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: that he's literally fronting his own money to keep the 429 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: job going. And then finally they tell him, listen, we're 430 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: not going to be making the tomb. Could you paint 431 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: the twelve apostles in the Sistine Chapel ceiling? And here 432 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: is the problem. The twelve apostles in the Sistine Chapel 433 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: ceiling is going to look like every ceiling in Italy. 434 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: You have traveled from north to south in this country, 435 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: you walk into a chapel, you look up at the ceiling, 436 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: and the ceiling is a blue sky with stars, with 437 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: some evangelists or with some apostles, few figures against a 438 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: blue sky. Michelangelo cannot afford to do something like that 439 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: because it will be mistaken for every other ceiling in Italy. 440 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: It's like you've had two Academy Award winning movies and 441 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: then they ask you to do a commercial, and so 442 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: Michelangelo instead comes back to the Pope and that same arrogance, 443 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, that same self confidence, which is extraordinary. 444 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: He goes back to the Pope and he says, yeah, okay, 445 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: so I'm thinking we could do stories of Genesis and Julius. Rightfully, 446 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: objects like, no, we can't do stories on the ceiling. 447 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: If you look at all those famous paintings of the 448 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: predecessors of the people who taught Michelangelo, like Gerlando Balticelli, 449 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: friend of Michelangelo's, even Leonardo da Vinci, all of them 450 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: conceive painting in the same way you make a space, 451 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: you fill up the space, and that is how painting works. 452 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: You use perspective, you use depth, you use composition, but 453 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: you create a space and then you fill it up. 454 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: If you take a painting with a filled up space 455 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: and you put it on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, 456 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: which is twenty seven feet off the ground, it will 457 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: look like a Jackson Pollock painting. And Julius doesn't think 458 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: it can be Dnice, I don't want a bunch of 459 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: figures on the ceiling, and no one understands what's happening. 460 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: And when michael Angelo shows him the drawings he has planned, 461 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: when he shows him the idea for the ceiling, Julius 462 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: realizes he has the one man in the entire world 463 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: who can paint a scene on a ceiling and make 464 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: it understandable because he's got a sculptor in front of 465 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: him and not a painter. And as a skull, Michelangelo 466 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: has trained to look at a piece of stone and 467 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: to think reductively. A sculptor takes away, reducing piece after 468 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: piece after piece, until this single figure tells the story 469 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: in and of itself. It is the opposite from how 470 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: a painter thinks, where the painter takes the space and 471 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: fills it. And from that moment, Julius says to Michelangelo, 472 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: what do you want? What can I give you? Please? 473 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: Get started. I can't wait. And the rest truly is history. 474 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: Where we have a watershed in the history of art, 475 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: a painting on a ceiling that is evidently and obviously 476 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: created by a man who was thinking in terms of 477 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: a sculptor architect. So basically Michelangelo, that tomb he had 478 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: wanted to build so badly. He built it anyway. He 479 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: built it in paint, and he built it on the 480 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. First of all, when you're 481 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: in the chapel, he look up your eyes, banda scaffolding 482 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: to climb up every single day, and then he lays 483 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: on his back. The technique they're using is very laborious 484 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: and very time sensor. Can you walk through how they 485 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: were actually because it's not painting in the sense of 486 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: oil and putting it on canvas. It's a very very 487 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: different and I think harder process. It is a very 488 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: exacting technique. The fresco painting technique that he used on 489 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: the ceiling. He had been taught in the studio of 490 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: Gerlindo when he was a boy how to do this technique, 491 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: and perhaps more importantly than the actual physical mixing and 492 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: application of color, he learned about running the studio that 493 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: has to produce the fresco. Because fresco is a lime 494 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: plaster and lime plaster that is applied on the wall. 495 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: And to be perfectly honest, it's not just one layer. 496 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: There's three layers that have to be put up on 497 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: the wall. The final layer will receive the paint while 498 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: the final layer, a very fine plaster, is on the wall. 499 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: The painter approaches with a pigment dissolved in water essentially watercolor, 500 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: and paints onto the wet plaster, hence the term frescos 501 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: and like fresh paint, and there's a chemical reaction that 502 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: happens between the lime in the plaster and the water 503 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: in the watercolor. It essentially sweats calcium carbonate and it 504 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: becomes colored stone. There is a six hour window from 505 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: the application of the plaster to when it will dry, 506 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: which means for a fresco painter. For Michelangelo in particular, 507 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: when he got up on that scaffolding, he had to 508 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: have a very small team, So the idea that he 509 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: was working alone is flat out. Someone has to be 510 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: grinding pigment, someone has to be mixing plaster, someone has 511 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: to be applying the sketches to the ceiling. Someone's got 512 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: to go get peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. There's got 513 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: to be a team working, so that six hours is 514 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: very efficient. He has to know exactly what he's doing. 515 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: It is not a technique allows winging it. If you 516 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: make a mistake and the paint dries, you are going 517 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: to have to chisel it out. So it was a 518 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: very very demanding technique, but it does require that he 519 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: worked with a certain amount of speed. So what the 520 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: painter does to modulate his work is he decides how 521 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: much space he thinks he can cover in six weeks. 522 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: And when he first started towards the entrance of the 523 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: chapel round the scaffolding of his own design, he ended 524 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: up having to design his own scaffolding because all the 525 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: other ideas seemed very silly or even dangerous to him. 526 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: So after he had designed his scaffolding, he gets up 527 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: on the scaffolding and he starts painting in the side 528 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: closest to the entrance. And exit door above the area 529 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: where the lay people were gathered. Those images took a 530 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: very long time to paint, so one of them, which 531 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: would be the story of Noah's arc the Great Flood, 532 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: took about six weeks for him to paint. At the 533 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: end of the three and a half years, he made 534 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: it over to the area by the altar. He was 535 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: working so quickly and so efficiently that the opening scene 536 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: of the Sistine Chapel, the Separation of Light and Dark, 537 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: he succeeded in painting in one day. He painted actually 538 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: in different positions. The most famous position we know he 539 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: painted in was actually standing with his head thrown backwards. 540 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: And the reason why we know this is because michael 541 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: Angelo's dislike of this commission was so great that he 542 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: vented by writing a poem to a friend of his. 543 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: And the poem complains about what it's like having his 544 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: head throw him back and his chest pulled upwards, and 545 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: he feels like a Lombard cat with the cats grow fat. 546 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: And he talks about this, and then he did a 547 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: little caricature on the side, an image of himself painting 548 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: the ceiling. So sometimes he stood, sometime he sat. There 549 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: was a little section on the sidewalls where he could 550 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: sit along the side of the fresco. But no matter what, 551 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: it was a very physically grueling process in which involves 552 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: a lot of paint dropping onto his face, which he 553 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: also complained about at length. How did he envision how 554 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: big it has to be up there to seem normal 555 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: when you're twenty seven lower to me. That's one of 556 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: the most amazing things about the sixteen Chaplains. It all works, 557 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: and yet you realize he's putting the stuff up here 558 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: twenty seven feet for me to look at, and when 559 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: he's doing it, he's right next to us. He must 560 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: have some ability to imagine all this with a perspective 561 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: that normal people would not have had. So what he 562 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: has is a very interesting group of people who are 563 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: highly specialized in this kind of work. So Michael Angelo 564 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: worked out a drawing of what he was going to 565 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: do on the ceiling, and yes, he has to know 566 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 1: a exactly the right size. It has to be perfectly 567 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: measured out, and he brought down a team of Florentine artists, 568 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: and Florentines were very very good at doing what today 569 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: we would put into a photocopy machine and program the 570 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: photocopy machine have it blow it up to whichever proportion 571 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: of ratio we wanted. But these Florentines were very good 572 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: at taking Michelangelo's drawing and breaking them out into actual 573 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: size drawings, so that at the end of the day, 574 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: when he approached each section of the ceiling, he went 575 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: up with a working cartoon, which means that he would 576 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,439 Speaker 1: put it up against the wall. He would either take 577 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: a sharp instrument and punch out the outlines of the 578 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: drawing and then put up charcoal dust so when he 579 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: pulled the drawing away there would be a dotted line. 580 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: Another technique he might use was an incision technique, where 581 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: he would just cut through the lines and make grooves 582 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: into the painting itself. They're different ways of doing this, 583 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: but he had these blueprints, if you will, of how 584 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: each part of the ceiling was supposed to be arranged 585 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: and where it was supposed to be placed. So he 586 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: completes it, it's done, he goes back to being a sculptor, 587 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: and then in fifteen thirty five he comes back to 588 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: paint the last judgment, which is in some ways the 589 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: most striking single thing in the Sisteine Chapel. How did 590 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: that happen. It's an amazing thing that both paintings are 591 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: in the same space because they transmit very, very different moods, 592 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: and the difference between the world that thirty three year 593 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: old Michelangelo knew when he started painting the Sistine Chapel 594 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: ceiling and the world of fifty nine year old Michelangelo 595 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: coming into paint the last judgment was completely different, and 596 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: in the space of a generation, the world in many 597 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: ways was unrecognizable to him. The Protestant Reformation had happened 598 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: in fifteen seventeen, so between these two moments and in 599 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: the Protestant the unthinkable event of a church that have 600 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: been united throughout Europe suddenly breaks in two, three, four 601 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: five pieces. So first of all, we have the fragmentation 602 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: of something that he thought was rock solid. Number two, 603 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 1: the recognition that for him personally, that tomb will never 604 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: be built, that tomb that motivated him to design the 605 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: Systine Chapel to work incredibly quickly so he could go 606 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 1: back to building the tomb that he thought we would 607 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: associate his name with it has become a colossal failure. 608 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: And then the other things that are happening are the 609 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: rise of the printing press and a new way of 610 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: transmitting images and transmitting information that is becoming much faster 611 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: and much more popular. And so he is commissioned in 612 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: the midst of this period of the Reformation by Pope 613 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: Paul the Third, the man who will approve the Jesuits, 614 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: the man who will open the Council of Trent. He 615 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: asks Michelangelo to come and paint on the alter wall 616 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: of the Sistine Chapel image that is not destined for 617 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: your everyday, run of the mill lay people. It is 618 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: an image which is destined to speak to the elite 619 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: group of the papal court who have had the best 620 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: of the Church and are now being reminded of their responsibilities. 621 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: I think it's very interesting that the commission for Michelangelo 622 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: starts putting up his scaffolding immediately after Henry the Eighth 623 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: sends that letter to Pope Clement the seventh which goes 624 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: something along the lines of high starting my own church, 625 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Love Henry, signed by all the cardinals and bishops of 626 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: England except for John Fisher. But the fact is the 627 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: Pope is seeing an exodus on the part of the 628 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be loyal to him, and 629 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: that painting of the Last Judgment, which Michelangelo is expected 630 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: to produce, is meant to be a reminder that it's 631 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: not the Pope that they're going to have to fool, 632 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: it's Jesus. And so the visual language of that work 633 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: is unlike anything anyone has ever seen before in less 634 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: judgment images. Well, and of course nowadays that as the 635 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: room in which the church gathers to pick popes. Absolutely 636 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: when that makes it the ultimate painting of accountability. I 637 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: was just saying about that. You're a cardinal, You're sitting there, 638 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: you're about to vote, and you're looking at judgment and 639 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: you realize that actually the person that will judge you 640 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: as God. Cardinal Powell of Beloved Memory once mentioned what 641 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: it was like to be in there with that painting 642 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: looking down on you as you cast the vote of 643 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: the pope in the urn that goes directly underneath it. 644 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, if you look at 645 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: the way the painting is arranged, the painting looks like 646 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: the tablets of the Ten Commandments, right, so it has 647 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: this feeling of that ultimate, essential, fundamental tenet of the 648 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: faith that's looming behind you. It's tilted slightly forward, so 649 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: it seems like you're about to be completely engulfed in 650 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: this moment of retribution, moment of accountability, a moment of judgment. 651 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: My sense has always been, and I say this for 652 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: all of our listeners who might someday go there, even 653 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: when it's crowded, if you can go in there and 654 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: be quiet and let the room talk to you, that 655 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: it's one of the most extraordinary places on the entire planet. 656 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: And that is just virtually overwhelming. I have seen the 657 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel with no one in it, with tons of 658 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: people in it, with dangerous numbers of people in it. 659 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,479 Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, Nude. I find the first 660 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: of all the artwork of the Sistine Chapel is above 661 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: my head or sort of looking upwards at the space 662 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: of the altar, and so I found that I can 663 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: just make everything else disappear and just get involved with 664 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: the ceiling. I find it much harder to be in 665 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: the Raphael rooms when it's crowded. I can't look, I 666 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: can't understand, I can't think I'm aware of the crowd. 667 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: But the Sistine Chapel has always been a place where 668 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: I felt that there's a way to literally kind of 669 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: rise above in my mind. And it is of course 670 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: also connected to the placement of the works of art, 671 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: and so it's true. Yes, I agree with you well 672 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: in a sense if you're a question the Last Judgment 673 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: may be the most powerful painting over painting. I mean, 674 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: it's there, and it's overwhelming. It it is God, I 675 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: would think so I lately as I take people in there, 676 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: the thing I say to them now is let it 677 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: overwhelm you. Don't be afraid to let it overwhelm you, 678 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: because that's really how you're going to experience it. The 679 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: painting is intended to be overwhelming. It's disruptive. All the 680 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: other paintings in the room, the fifteenth century side paintings, 681 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: the ceiling painting by Michelangelo, everything is compartmentalized, so every 682 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: single image within the side walls and the ceiling is 683 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: contained in some sort of pseudo architectural space. But the 684 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 1: Last Judgment just abruptly fills the wall with this incredible 685 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: Lapis Lazuli color. So the order that is all around 686 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: the rest of the room disappears and you're just consumed 687 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: by this mesmerizing Lapis blue sky, where it looks like 688 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: the wall has dissolved and something supernatural is happening beyond it. 689 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: And at the lower part of the painting there's this 690 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: incredible rustle of movement of bodies, bodies lifting up from 691 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: the ground, demons looking like they're trying to make a 692 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: move out to grab somebody from the crowd in the chapel, 693 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: people being cast into the depths of hell. But as 694 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: you move up a little bit, you begin to see 695 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: that the momentum of the painting is actually a momentum upwards. 696 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: So from the left hand side, another group of people 697 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: are drawn upwards, are being lifted upwards, are being helped upwards. 698 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: And then you find yourself gazing at the upper part 699 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: of the painting at this Winner's circle of Heaven, and 700 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: leading into the center is body after body of superheroes. 701 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 1: It looks like you're looking at a superhero movie with 702 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: these immense bodies. John the Baptist to wait, Locusts and 703 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,240 Speaker 1: Wild Honey, who's flexing like mister Universe. You have Saint Peter, 704 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: who's looking like the buff is seventy year old. You're 705 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: ever going to see these array of saints leading your 706 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: eye to the center where you see Jesus like no 707 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: one's ever seen before. A powerful Jesus, Jesus who's not 708 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: yet fully revealed his full strength and his full glory, 709 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: looking down towards the damned, raising his hand towards the damn, 710 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: about to unleash what looks like the terrifying justice of 711 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: the Lord on a sinful people. But then you look 712 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 1: slightly to his left and they're literally affixed to his side, 713 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: nestle to him in a way that has never been 714 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: done before. There is Mary looking down upon the elect 715 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: and they make this beautiful compliment to each other. Christ 716 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: is the picture of justice, Mary as the picture of mercy. 717 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: And again, if you are willing to brave the painting, 718 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: if you handle it that it's overwhelming you and you 719 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: let yourself be drawn up, and you feel that anxiety 720 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: at being caught up in something that is beyond your control, 721 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: which is the last judgment. You find yourself drawn to 722 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: that image of Mary, who leads you right to Christ's side, 723 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: and this indication that through her you get to him. 724 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: And there is a consoling voice, a comforting voice, an 725 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: advocate for you in this incredible scene. It's an amazingly beautiful, 726 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: powerful work of art, and it sounds of Mary in church, 727 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: which evolves in the following several centuries. I mean Mary 728 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: becoming a central figure, Mary being mother of the church, 729 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: and Mary being the road through which we pray to 730 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: be saved. Absolutely, this is a moment where these Mary 731 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: and themes are very much coming to the four and 732 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: so it shows a Michael Angelo who is sitting at 733 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 1: the cutting edge of Mary and theology to put her 734 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: in that particular physician. It's absolutely wildly innovative in its concept, 735 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: and so it creates this visual complimentarity where you have 736 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: at the sort of center of the scene you have 737 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: man and woman together. You have this image of Christ 738 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: the Savior showing the wounds on his hands for having 739 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: saved redeemed mankind. But at the same time we have 740 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: that gentle conduit to him. She's right by the wound 741 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: in his side. From whence the church sprang, we have 742 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: that gentle conduit of Mary to get to the presence 743 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: of Christ. When somebody has now experienced a Sustaine chapel 744 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: and the way you have described it brilliantly, and they 745 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: now need to contemplate what they've just experienced. What restaurant 746 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: do you recommend they go to contemplated, what a fabulous ending. 747 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 1: I'd go up the hill to Antiko Arco on the 748 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: top of the juniculum, which is quiet. That's a nice 749 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: sort of quiet spot to contemplate. And I know that 750 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: you and Thomas have both become certified chamelier. So while 751 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: you're being quiet and contemplating, do you have two or 752 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: three favorite wines you recommend? So I think Thomas he 753 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: would probably recommend a beautiful red Burgundy Sundini, something fabulously 754 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 1: complex with a rich bouquet. In order to sort of 755 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 1: imbibe all the richness of the Sistine Chapel. I think 756 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,399 Speaker 1: perhaps I would go in a more of either a 757 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: white direction, a little bit of a refreshing moment with 758 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: the wonderful Vermentino are fabulous Mediterranean and a glass which 759 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: we produce in the area around Liguria and Sardinia. But 760 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: actually visiting the Cistine Chapel, visiting the ceiling, the last judgment, 761 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful places in the world. I 762 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: would never say that Champagne aim is out of order, 763 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: because everything about that space makes us want to celebrate life, 764 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: beauty in art. Well, and on that note, I do 765 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,440 Speaker 1: want to point out to people that I'll hur are 766 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: you brilliant and fun, but that you've recently published The 767 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: Silent Night, a history of Saint Joseph has depicted in art, 768 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: and that all of your books can be found on Amazon, 769 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: and we're going to have, of course, on our show 770 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: page all of that information. Plus we're going to list 771 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: your website at www dot Elizabeth dash lev dot com 772 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: so people can be in touch with you and potentially 773 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: if they're coming to Rome, I think they now know 774 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: from this that you are a brilliant guide and that 775 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: they will not just learn a great deal, they'll have 776 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: a heck of a lot of fun. Thank you so much. 777 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,399 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Liz Love. You can learn 778 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: more about her tours of Rome and books on our 779 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced 780 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: by Gingwi stweet sixty and Heartmedia. Our executive producer is 781 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: Garnsey Sloan, our producers Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is 782 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by 783 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: Steve Pendley. Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. 784 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 785 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 786 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 787 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign 788 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 1: up for my three free weekly columns at Gingwich three 789 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:33,320 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is 790 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: Newtsworld