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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: your weekly reminder that we all have to go to

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Speaker 2: work even though the world's largest military has been taken

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Speaker 2: over by fascists, or at least that's what it feels

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Speaker 2: like to me. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. This is

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Speaker 2: a show about cool people did cool stuff. It's in

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Speaker 2: the title. But this week we're gonna try yet another

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Speaker 2: new format. This week, I have a guest on who's

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Speaker 2: going to explain stuff to me about a book that

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Speaker 2: she wrote. My guest is Suzanne Cope. Hi, how are you?

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Speaker 3: Hi? Am great? Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Suzanne Cope is the author of the upcoming book Women

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Speaker 2: of War, The Italian Assassin, Spies and Couriers Who Fought

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Speaker 2: the Nazis, which is out on April twenty ninth from

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Speaker 2: Dutton and you can pre order it now. And I've

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Speaker 2: never done the like I'm interviewing the author of a

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Speaker 2: book on this show, but like, and I usually I'll

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Speaker 2: be real. Usually when I get like emails that are like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you should totally have this author on your show, I'm like, no,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't, but this book was so perfect for you

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Speaker 2: all the audience. I think you'll like it. You probably

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Speaker 2: figured that out because it's called Women of War the

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Speaker 2: Italian Assassin, Spies and couriers who fought the Nazis. That's

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Speaker 2: just basically like cool people did cool stuff in a

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Speaker 2: thick hardcover that looks really good. This book profiles for

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Speaker 2: women anti fascist partisans, all of whom spoiler alert survived

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Speaker 2: the war, so we get sort of happy endings this

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Speaker 2: time too, despite taking enormous risks, and also like really

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Speaker 2: challenging the idea of what it means to be a

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Speaker 2: frontlines fighter versus a support person and how everyone kind

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Speaker 2: of does both in a really interesting way. Is that

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Speaker 2: a fair summation of your book. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds great, and I know I love that

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Speaker 4: you picked up on that because in the epilogue I

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Speaker 4: mentioned that I don't want to not honor the people

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Speaker 4: who are doing the support work, but those stories are

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Speaker 4: just a little less exciting. So I did try to

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Speaker 4: cover both sides. That the support work was so important,

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Speaker 4: but also, you know, killing Nazis is really important work too.

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Speaker 2: It is really important work speaking of people who don't

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Speaker 2: do anything criminal. Sophie is our producer, Hi Sophie Hi allegedly, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: allegedly our producer and our audio engineers, Rory. Everyone wants

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Speaker 2: to say hi to Rory.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: Rory Hi, Rory Hi.

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Speaker 1: Ri.

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Speaker 2: Our theme music was written for us by unwoman. So

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Speaker 2: I'm like, how do we start? Like where do we start?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to start by maybe talking a little

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Speaker 2: bit about Italian fascism and like how that came to

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Speaker 2: be a problem that people decided to try and solve. Sure, Also,

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Speaker 2: you should tell us about you and then we will

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Speaker 2: talk about the contents of your book.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 4: I am a professor at NYU. I teach writing, and

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Speaker 4: I am a little bit of a taught journalist because

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Speaker 4: I used a lot of my skills from my social

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Speaker 4: science degrees and my MFA and creative nonfiction to figure

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Speaker 4: out how to do this kind of deep dive research.

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Speaker 3: And so it was really exciting.

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Speaker 4: This is the second book now where I spent a

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Speaker 4: lot of time in the archives, I interviewed people.

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Speaker 3: I went to places.

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Speaker 4: And it's always a thrill when folks for my last book,

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Speaker 4: Power Hungary and this one call me a historian, because.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I legitimately am.

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Speaker 2: Right now, people sometimes call me a historian, and that's

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Speaker 2: not technically true, because I don't do much original research.

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Speaker 2: Every now and then do but I'm mostly using secondary

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Speaker 2: and tertiary sources. But yeah, you actually are a historian.

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Speaker 2: This is a history book. You went and looked at

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Speaker 2: things that other people hadn't put together yet? Is that

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Speaker 2: a fair way to put it? Like?

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Speaker 4: Yes, And I had to do a deep dive into

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Speaker 4: this time period. I really you know, you think about

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Speaker 4: what you learned or didn't learn in high school and

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Speaker 4: middle school. I have a middle school kid, and I'm

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Speaker 4: thinking he actually hasn't learned a lot about history, and

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Speaker 4: we learn even less. I've found speaking to a lot

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Speaker 4: of people in the United States about World War two

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Speaker 4: or global history if it doesn't have anything to do

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Speaker 4: with the United States. And so I really had to

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Speaker 4: educate myself on what was happening in World War two

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Speaker 4: in Italy at this time, and then of course backtracking

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Speaker 4: and figuring out what got them to be on the

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Speaker 4: side of the axis powers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned you had a different book. I think

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Speaker 2: you should plug that other book too, because I think

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Speaker 2: people will like it. It's a subject we've covered a

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Speaker 2: lot on this show.

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Speaker 3: Excellent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called power Hungry and it's about the women

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Speaker 4: of the Black Panther Party and Freedom Summer, and this

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Speaker 4: is the subtitle, and their fight to feed a movement,

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Speaker 4: and it, you know, everything feels so resonant for our times.

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Speaker 4: But it's really about these women in these two kind

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Speaker 4: of side by side movements, but there are characters that

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Speaker 4: cross over and really bring them together, about women who

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Speaker 4: were using food as a means for social and political change,

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Speaker 4: but also as a way to kind of show their power.

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Speaker 4: But what I found through that book, so you have

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Speaker 4: the Black Panther Party. They have these free breakfasts for

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Speaker 4: children that they're most known for, but that was such

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Speaker 4: a political act and they were really teaching the kids

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Speaker 4: and the families that this is the way it should be,

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Speaker 4: Like socialism should be a thing.

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Speaker 3: We should we have the food, we should feed people.

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Speaker 4: And likewise you have Ellen Quinn and other folks in Macomb, Mississippi,

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Speaker 4: where they are she was using food as a means

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Speaker 4: to bring people together and show people they're welcome, but

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Speaker 4: also to show that people are loved.

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Speaker 3: This community is supported.

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Speaker 4: And so this book, as I was turning my eye

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Speaker 4: towards this time period that I had been interested in

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Speaker 4: in previously, I realized, well, first of all, it's war.

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Speaker 4: There's not a lot of food, so those stories would

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Speaker 4: not be as interesting. But also what was what I

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Speaker 4: found about the power of food and power hungry was

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Speaker 4: that it really was about feminized skills, about the way

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Speaker 4: that women were kind of allowed in these circumstances to

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Speaker 4: show their power. And it wasn't just food. It ended

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Speaker 4: up being other kind of feminized.

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Speaker 3: Ways of power and leadership.

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Speaker 4: And so that's the lens that I took to women

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Speaker 4: of war is how women were able to do a

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Speaker 4: lot of the things that they could do, like being couriers,

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Speaker 4: because they were women and they were underestimated and they

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Speaker 4: were allowed to move around with a little more security

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Speaker 4: until it was the Nazis and the fascists were like, oh, women,

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Speaker 4: they're political too, and then the gig was up a

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Speaker 4: little bit, but yeah, that they didn't lose their nerve

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Speaker 4: despite that.

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Speaker 2: I think it's funny because, as far as I could tell,

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Speaker 2: everything I've read about a war has women doing courier work,

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Speaker 2: especially in an occupied kind of area, like the Irish

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Speaker 2: Revolution had women riding bicycles around Ireland and stuff, delivering

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Speaker 2: messages and all this, and I'm like, how have people

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Speaker 2: not caught on? I guess, like misogyny just runs so

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Speaker 2: deep and the idea of like women can't do anything useful,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, No, it's so true.

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Speaker 4: And there's this story from later in the book this

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Speaker 4: is not a spoiler, where one of the women, Anita,

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Speaker 4: is she has this big prisoner and she told I

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Speaker 4: got the story from her testimony, and so I love

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Speaker 4: hearing her tell the story. And she's like chomping through

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Speaker 4: the forest to take him from one camp to another

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Speaker 4: with this machine gun in his back, and she said.

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Speaker 3: He kept stopping and being like, but you are a woman.

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Speaker 3: You are made to make love.

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Speaker 4: She's like, just keep walking, like you couldn't believe it,

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Speaker 4: this whole wander through the woods.

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Speaker 2: Well, that was one thing that actually struck me that

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Speaker 2: we'll get to you more when we start talking about

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Speaker 2: this woman that a lot of them were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a courier, and like the if you read

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Speaker 2: the cliffs notes versions of these women's story like, oh,

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Speaker 2: a courier, and then you're like, wait, but you also

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Speaker 2: led a prisoner with a machine gun through the I mean,

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Speaker 2: I guess you're courier. In a person at this point,

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Speaker 2: but like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so much more than that. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So okay, wait with this book and this is just

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Speaker 2: my own side interest. Did I read or did you

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Speaker 2: maybe just also talk about did it start as I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do a food related thing and then you

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Speaker 2: moved away from that? Is that?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: The origin of this book was, and also of Power Hungry?

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Speaker 4: Was that eight years ago and change. That number is

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Speaker 4: not a random number. I was looking around at the

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Speaker 4: protests that were erupting around me, and I was doing

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Speaker 4: a lot of work around food studies at the time

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Speaker 4: and thinking about food and culture. And I saw people

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Speaker 4: I knew were groups I was connected with. They were

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Speaker 4: feeding immigrants or refugees, were cooking and teaching about their culture.

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Speaker 4: They were sending pizzas to people who were protesting. And

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Speaker 4: I thought, okay, these are all great things, but what

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Speaker 4: were people doing in the past? And so I thought,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to do this deep dive kind of for myself,

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Speaker 4: but also, you know, thinking how to share this of

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Speaker 4: how food was used during these moments of inflection in history.

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Speaker 4: And so I had this great book proposal I love

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Speaker 4: that almost sold, that had these five different stories of

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Speaker 4: food as I call it now, food is a tool

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Speaker 4: for social and political change. And the feedback I got was,

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Speaker 4: these stories are great, but people just want to read

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Speaker 4: American stories now. And so that ellen Quinn story was

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Speaker 4: the one that was the American story, and so I

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Speaker 4: pulled that out and that turned into Power Hungry. And

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Speaker 4: so as soon as that was done and I could

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Speaker 4: focus on the next project. And this was also, you know,

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Speaker 4: pandemic was waning. Maybe we could travel again. I thought,

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Speaker 4: I need to go to Italy. This is where I

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Speaker 4: want to go for my next book. I just and

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Speaker 4: plus that story was very compelling. It changed very much

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Speaker 4: from what I had researched for the original proposal. And

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Speaker 4: then it turned in yeah, into finding these four different women.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't even actually Bianca was was kind of in

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Speaker 4: that version, but I was really focused on her colleague,

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Speaker 4: Ada Gobetti, who does make an appearance in the book.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, and so that's and then it morphed in

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Speaker 4: many ways since since that proposal to this book.

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Speaker 2: Because we've done a couple episodes about we haven't done

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Speaker 2: a lot of episodes about World War two fascist Italy.

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Speaker 2: We've done a couple episodes about early resistance to fascism

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Speaker 2: in Italy, and one of them, I don't remember which one.

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Speaker 2: We talked at length about this thing that I learned

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Speaker 2: that Mussolini hated pasta.

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Speaker 3: What oh, I didn't come across Massolini.

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Speaker 2: Thought that pasta was basically like turning the Italians into

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Speaker 2: soy boys. Was sort of the equivalent, you know. It

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, it reduces their masculinity. And I think

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Speaker 2: it relied on imported wheat, and so he was a

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Speaker 2: big proponent of rice, whereas Italy is the primary exporter

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Speaker 2: of rice in Europe. Because then the other, okay, the

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Speaker 2: other story about food in Italy. I'm just I'm very

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Speaker 2: excited about telling these things. The song Bella Chow was

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Speaker 2: originally written by the migrant rice workers in northern Italy,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't it actually wasn't a partisan song, or

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Speaker 2: there's no evidence that it was a partisan song. But

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Speaker 2: it's I don't know anywhere. I did a told two

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Speaker 2: parter about Belichow, and then we've done a couple episodes,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just telling you about because say about food history.

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Speaker 2: It's another food history, another radical food history, and named

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Speaker 2: ren AWRAI has done episodes with us about food co

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Speaker 2: ops and a bunch of other stuff.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm a park Slip food co op member.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, cool, Yeah you should go and talk about it, right, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: We've talked a little bit on this show about the

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Speaker 2: rise of fascism, and we talked a little bit about

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Speaker 2: people trying to kill Mussolini. That was the angle of

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Speaker 2: one of the episodes, with all the people who tried

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Speaker 2: to kill Mussolini, including some people eventually succeeded at it.

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Speaker 2: But could you kind of set the scene for us

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Speaker 2: anyone who hasn't listened to previous episodes, or as you

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Speaker 2: pointed out, American history doesn't really talk about this very much.

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Speaker 2: And I actually think that understanding the rise of fascism

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Speaker 2: in Italy is maybe more important than understanding the rise

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Speaker 2: of Nazism in Germany in terms of our own immediate situation.

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Speaker 2: But maybe I'm no, it's miss.

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Speaker 3: It's absolutely true.

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Speaker 4: Is so post World War One people and this was

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Speaker 4: happening around the globe. People had traveled, soldiers had traveled,

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Speaker 4: There was more awareness of what was happening globally, and people.

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Speaker 3: Were getting a little, you know, a little more progressive.

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Speaker 4: And women were making art and they were in the workforce,

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Speaker 4: and this was something that yeah, mostly and well a

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Speaker 4: lot of right wing folks were not so into in Italy,

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Speaker 4: and so he actually was a pretty liberal guy, and

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Speaker 4: he flip flopped during World War One and he was

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Speaker 4: anti war, and then he changed his tune and he

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Speaker 4: saw that he could kind of rile up this conservative base.

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Speaker 4: And he was a media guy. He was a newspaperman,

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Speaker 4: and so he created this his own newspaper that was

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Speaker 4: catering to this right wing perspective, and he, yeah, whipped

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Speaker 4: some people up into a frenzy kind of saying, we

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Speaker 4: need to get rid of this progressive notion. These women

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Speaker 4: who are in the workforce, maybe their skirts are getting shorter.

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Speaker 3: You know, this woke nonsense exactly.

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Speaker 4: And so he got a bunch of you know, Squadristi

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Speaker 4: as they were would come to be known, these kind

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Speaker 4: of proud boys of Italy, and he threatened to this

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Speaker 4: is the whole thing. He threatened to march on Rome

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Speaker 4: and say if you don't, if you basically don't hand

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Speaker 4: over Rome, hand over the government to me, then I'm

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Speaker 4: going to set these like couple hundred I think that's

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Speaker 4: all it was.

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Speaker 3: Guys, loose and we'll make you.

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Speaker 4: And the king was just this weak dude, and he

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Speaker 4: was like okay, and he just kind of let him,

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Speaker 4: let him take it over, and so he you know,

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Speaker 4: it took a couple of years to fully kind of

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Speaker 4: grab control of, you know, all aspects of government.

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Speaker 3: But he, you know, he was not dealing with a

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Speaker 3: lot of pushback, and.

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Speaker 4: People immediately started to make deals with him, and they thought, oh,

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Speaker 4: maybe we could work together, and that quickly was you know,

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Speaker 4: there didn't seem to be very much resistance, and he

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Speaker 4: quickly shut down. I mean, he just changed the government,

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Speaker 4: like he started to change what people learned in school.

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Speaker 4: He was dictating within a couple of years what the

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Speaker 4: curriculum should be. He was separating schools by gender in

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Speaker 4: a lot of places, and women girls would learn certain

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Speaker 4: things and boys would learn other things. And then there

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Speaker 4: was a lot of indoctrination where kids from the very

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Speaker 4: youngest ages were I mean, it was voluntary, but there

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Speaker 4: there's even a couple of stories in the books of

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Speaker 4: kids whose parents didn't put them in these fascist kids

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Speaker 4: groups were sometimes punished in other ways, and it was

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Speaker 4: definitely looked at as being subversive by not putting your

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Speaker 4: kids in these groups where they learned girls learn to

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Speaker 4: sew and boys learned to be soldiers, and they were

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Speaker 4: also indoctrinated with this fascist ideology. But you know, Muslim

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Speaker 4: was kind of inventing fascism in a way. I mean,

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Speaker 4: he had these you know, scholarly guys that were helping

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Speaker 4: him form an ideology. And it was funny when I

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Speaker 4: was writing there, when I was going through the is

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Speaker 4: of the book, and there's some quote that said, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to roughly remember it was like the inherent inequality

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Speaker 4: of people. And my editor said, oh, this is a typo.

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Speaker 4: You mean equality, And I'm like.

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Speaker 2: No, they said fascists. Yeah, they said.

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Speaker 3: It straight up.

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Speaker 4: They said, no, people are unequal. That's the way it is.

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Speaker 4: And so this is what people were taught. And this

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Speaker 4: is starting in the early nineteen twenties. So the folks

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Speaker 4: in this book, the people who were in their twenties

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Speaker 4: during World War Two, they had been completely brought up

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Speaker 4: under this system. And even if your parents, like one

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Speaker 4: woman today's a matte, her parents were the most outspoken

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Speaker 4: out of these four families. And you know, so she

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Speaker 4: was taught what was going on as far as like

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Speaker 4: taught anti fascist ideology. But the other women, it turns

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Speaker 4: out their families didn't support fascism and did things that

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Speaker 4: were would be considered anti fascist, but they didn't. They

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Speaker 4: kind of had to come to their own political understanding

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Speaker 4: on their own because their parents were so afraid to

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Speaker 4: tell them. They're afraid they would, you know, say something

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Speaker 4: at school or or that they would in some way

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Speaker 4: be found out because they were kids and the whole

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Speaker 4: family would be punished.

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Speaker 2: Because I'd actually several of them did that as kids.

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Speaker 2: They like said anti fascist stuff and got in trouble, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean kind of you know Anita where.

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Speaker 4: She was, you know, kind of admitted, you know, she's like,

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Speaker 4: I'm not in this, in this you know, little fascist program.

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Speaker 3: And she came home and she's like, mom, I got

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Speaker 3: in trouble. I didn't win this.

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Speaker 4: Award I was supposed to win because they said I

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Speaker 4: wasn't a fascist. And her mom just her mom slapped

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Speaker 4: her and said, now I'll give you something to cry

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Speaker 4: about it. And she didn't realized for many years later

335
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Speaker 4: that it was her mother protecting her. And yeah, and

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Speaker 4: so she very much she didn't even tell her parents

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Speaker 4: when she did join the resistance. She didn't tell her

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Speaker 4: parents until she had to escape into the hills, and

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Speaker 4: they were they were shocked that she had been doing this.

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Speaker 2: So what happened with like what happened to because Italy

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Speaker 2: immediately before the rise of fascism was full of socialist,

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Speaker 2: communists and anarchists. It was like one of the hot

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Speaker 2: beds of the internationalists left right, and then fascism takes over.

344
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Speaker 2: I've read about individuals who fucked off and went to

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Speaker 2: France or you know. I think some people went to

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Speaker 2: you know, the US and all of these things, right,

347
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Speaker 2: but did most people just kind of shut up to

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Speaker 2: try and stay alive and then come out more when

349
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Speaker 2: they when they got to be partisans when the tide

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Speaker 2: starts turning.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think most people capitulated, you know, and yeah,

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Speaker 4: they the ways. And I didn't research this greatly, but

353
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Speaker 4: of course it came up a lot. But it seems

354
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Speaker 4: like when you know, you have someone who people who

355
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Speaker 4: maybe were still trying to publish anti fascist publications early

356
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Speaker 4: in Mussolini's reign and he had, you know, quickly taken

357
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Speaker 4: control of the major publications, and then you have some

358
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Speaker 4: folks who are like, well, I'm going to I'm going

359
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Speaker 4: to publish what I want to say that I'm against you,

360
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Speaker 4: And they would be punished in various ways. Yeah, you know,

361
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Speaker 4: they might be maybe if they had another job, they

362
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Speaker 4: would be threatened with losing their job, or they would

363
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Speaker 4: lose their job.

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Speaker 3: A lot of times, he'd liked to send people.

365
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Speaker 4: To confinement in Kiinfino, where they just sent all these

366
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Speaker 4: radicals on a kind of a semi deserted island and

367
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Speaker 4: they just kind of hung out in this island for

368
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Speaker 4: a couple of years, and people could even visit them,

369
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Speaker 4: like their families could come visit them for a while,

370
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Speaker 4: and they lived in a little house. But his whole

371
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Speaker 4: thing was like, oh, I don't kill people. I just

372
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Speaker 4: you know, disappear them for a little bit, or lock

373
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Speaker 4: them up, or I forced them to Lackey's forced them

374
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Speaker 4: to drink castor oil. That was a favorite punishment that

375
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Speaker 4: they held you down and made you.

376
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Speaker 3: Chug castor oil.

377
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Speaker 4: So there was a lot of ways where yeah, you

378
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Speaker 4: were just intimidated into being quiet, and people they just

379
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Speaker 4: shut up for all of these yeah, all of these reasons,

380
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Speaker 4: and people like Terisa Matte's father, they also had this

381
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Speaker 4: interesting balancing act. And I did ask a couple scholars

382
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Speaker 4: about this who knew a lot about it, because I

383
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Speaker 4: was so confused. I'm like, well, how come her father,

384
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Speaker 4: for example, Mugo Matte, how come he was allowed to

385
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Speaker 4: like how was he a known anti fascist? And it

386
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Speaker 4: was this balance of allowing people to speak out enough

387
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Speaker 4: as long as he wasn't too influential. Because my feeling is,

388
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Speaker 4: and you know what other folks have said is that

389
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Speaker 4: when maybe people would have revolted if there were too

390
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Speaker 4: many people disappearing, right, So it was almost there's a

391
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Speaker 4: little balance you could let people, you know, almost seem

392
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Speaker 4: like some people could get away with speaking out. Yeah,

393
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Speaker 4: but it seemed like it's this very strange balance that

394
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Speaker 4: also was not an exact science.

395
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so there was some anti fascism that still existed.

396
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Speaker 4: And Terrees's family, for example, they were friends with a

397
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Speaker 4: lot of intellectuals like in Italian Ginsburg and the Olavetti's

398
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Speaker 4: who made the typewriters, and the Rosselli brothers, and they,

399
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Speaker 4: you know, they met for a while, they would do

400
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Speaker 4: things to kind of meet in secret.

401
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Speaker 3: Some of these people ended up dead.

402
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Speaker 4: So it was like, when, at what point are you

403
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 4: crossing the line where they you kind of don't know

404
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 4: at what point you might cross the line and end

405
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Speaker 4: up end up dead.

406
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Speaker 2: Well, do you know what won't leave you dead? It's

407
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 2: the product and services that support this show. They'll all

408
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: keep you alive forever. If you use any of these products,

409
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 2: you will live forever. I think it's the thing I

410
00:20:53,400 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 2: can legally declare about the products. Here's ads and we're back. Okay,

411
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Speaker 2: So fascism takes over. The resistance gets real diminished after

412
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 2: some people try some spicy stuff. At the beginning, there's

413
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Speaker 2: a bunch of people try and kill Mussolini from various

414
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Speaker 2: different political positions.

415
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Speaker 3: See episode number.

416
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I never remember the episode numbers, but

417
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 2: I went over a lot of them. There was the

418
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Speaker 2: cool religious lady, Irish lady, and then there was the

419
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Speaker 2: you know, a whole lot of anarchists, and I think

420
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Speaker 2: some communists got in there and tried to kill them too.

421
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Speaker 2: Clearly none of them succeeded until later. But when does

422
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Speaker 2: partisan resistance start kicking off, or rather does partisan resistance

423
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Speaker 2: only start kicking off kind of once the war starts

424
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Speaker 2: turning against Italy.

425
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so the folks who were part of this resistance.

426
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Speaker 4: A lot of them went underground. They stopped, yeah, doing

427
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 4: things publicly. Maybe they were still connected with each other.

428
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 4: You know, probably if I did a deep dive or

429
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 4: even a medium dive, I would you know, could find

430
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 4: a lot of stories of folks like, for example, someone

431
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 4: that today's Mitte worked with. He was active when he

432
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 4: was in his twenties, and since he was in his

433
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: thirties during the war. This was, you know, midway during

434
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 4: his reign, Mussolini's reign, so he certainly was doing something.

435
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 2: And so people were doing stuff, just not to the

436
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: same degree.

437
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 3: Okay, exactly exactly.

438
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 4: And so what happened was when there was this period

439
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: of time where Hitler goes to war. Everyone knows that

440
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 4: Mussolini and Hitler are friends. There's all this rumbling that

441
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 4: Italy is going to side and join the war as well.

442
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 4: And I mean this was everybody, even Mussolini's buddies, told him, like,

443
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 4: this is a bad idea. We do not have the infrastructure,

444
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 4: we don't have the money for this. We're not gonna

445
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 4: be ready to go to war for.

446
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 3: A couple of years. We need to like kind of

447
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 3: ramp up production.

448
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 4: And you know, he was pressured by Hitler to become

449
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 4: a member the Axis forces, and so he joins the war.

450
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 4: Italy joins the war, and it was instantly unpopular Italians.

451
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 3: They didn't believe in what they were fighting for.

452
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 4: They had been doing all these other military things that

453
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 4: they also didn't really believe in. At one point in

454
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 4: the mid thirties, Mussolani invades Ethiopia because he said, you know,

455
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 4: make Italy great again, bring back the Roman Empire.

456
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, wanted to be an empire again.

457
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, bring back the Roman Empire.

458
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 4: But basically it was all the gist of that, and

459
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 4: so people were just not down with it. They're young

460
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 4: men are dying, they're under you know, under all these rationing,

461
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 4: and they just hate it. And so people were very

462
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 4: he was losing even what little popularity had, you know,

463
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 4: despite people were not big fans of him for a

464
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 4: long time, but they kind of were cowed into being like,

465
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 4: all right, he's our leader, he's keeping us.

466
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: Maybe he'll keep us out of war.

467
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 4: And then when he couldn't even keep them out of war,

468
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 4: that's really when his popularity started to decline. And then

469
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 4: life got more difficult for people in Italy. And then

470
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 4: there's this one moment that I think is kind of

471
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 4: a key moment. I don't think it's the only key moment,

472
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: but I think there's a couple moments like this that

473
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 4: happened that galvanized more and more people. So in March

474
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 4: of nineteen forty three, Italy had been in war for

475
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 4: a while and Bianca Guidetti Serra, she is, you know,

476
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 4: twenty something year old and Turin to Reno, and she

477
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 4: is kind of like a social worker where she was

478
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 4: studying law, but she got a job as a social

479
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 4: worker where she's going to these factories like the Fiat factory,

480
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 4: and she's you know, talking to all of these families

481
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: and you know, the husband died the sun.

482
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 3: You know, they haven't heard from me in forever.

483
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 4: The women are there working, trying to make money to

484
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 4: feed their kids. They're working these long hours, have horrible rations,

485
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 4: paid less than the man doing the same job, you know,

486
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 4: totally legally in the system. And you know, even the

487
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 4: men there were were just unhappy. And all of the

488
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 4: stuff that they're making, it's all going towards this war.

489
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: That they hate.

490
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: And so a handful of folks organized by the communists,

491
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 4: a very deep underground Communist party. They went on strike,

492
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 4: they went out and did this protest.

493
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: Didn't last very long.

494
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: But this is like the first one in like twenty

495
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: years or something.

496
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: Right exactly.

497
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 4: And so they're standing outside of the Fiat factory and

498
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 4: Bianca hears about it, and she's like, I have to

499
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: go see this with my own eyes.

500
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: She's just so shocked. And this was really the moment

501
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: that she and I'm going to.

502
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 4: Project but I think fairly that many other people said, oh,

503
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 4: we can stand up, we could do this, and they

504
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: you know, some of them might have gotten arrested. They

505
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: I mean, they weren't all killed for doing this. They

506
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 4: weren't all jailed. They were kind of sent back to work.

507
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 4: Nothing major happened. And so this was really the moment

508
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 4: that people saw that they could stand up.

509
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: And they also saw, and this is what I think

510
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: is so important.

511
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: About these kind of public actions, they also saw that

512
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 4: other people felt the same way. Yeah, So it was

513
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 4: just this you know, kind of snowball effect of a

514
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: lot of it was quiet. But I think from the

515
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: testimony I've read and what I've heard that kind of

516
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 4: not directly from that moment, but around this time, these

517
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 4: kind of things were happening where people were starting to

518
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 4: stand up for themselves. They were so fed up, and

519
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: it led to Mussolini being deposed. He was kicked out

520
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: of leadership by the king, who is pretty weak, and

521
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 4: they put in this other guy who was basically, you know,

522
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 4: a minor fascist, and then he dilly dally's This was

523
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: in I think it was July twenty fifth, but I

524
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 4: had to double check that date.

525
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 3: Nineteen forty three.

526
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 4: When Mussolini is deposed, and then Badolio, who is now

527
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 4: the leader, he doesn't he want He's negotiating terms of surrender.

528
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: I mean, Italy has been on the bad side of

529
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 4: history for decades, right, and now he's like, maybe I

530
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 4: can get a good deal as we surrender. And what

531
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 4: happens while he's dilly deallying is the Germans are pissed,

532
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 4: so they just start sending all of these soldiers into Italy.

533
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 4: They're occupying Italy for forty five days, and people are

534
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 4: kind of raising the alarm, like, hey.

535
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 3: Should you maybe be stopping this?

536
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 4: Do you know that there's just train loads of German

537
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 4: soldiers just going by at all times, And Vaduli is like, eh,

538
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 4: you know, it's not my problem. And then the moment

539
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: the armistice, the surrender is announced, fighting breaks out and

540
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 4: Germany's like, hey, we have occupied Italy, right, And so

541
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 4: that's the moment. During those forty five days when there

542
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 4: was kind of this vacuum of power, a lot of

543
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: the folks came out of the woodwork, people who were

544
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: in jail, political prisoners, they came out and started organizing.

545
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 4: They had already been organizing in jail, and now they're

546
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 4: organizing with other folks that people know that they need

547
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 4: to do something like, hey, we've been waiting for the

548
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 4: war to end, but I don't know is the war over.

549
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 4: We don't even know what's going on. So people got

550
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 4: activated in that time period. And then as soon as

551
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: the Nazis took over, of course now you get the

552
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 4: sense that being politically active is now suddenly very dangerous.

553
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 4: But people also understood that their their freedom and their

554
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: future was at stake, and so a lot of these

555
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: grew stayed active. And what happened too was a lot

556
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 4: of the men, particularly young men, They instituted a new

557
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 4: draft of people who are going to be forced to

558
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 4: be in this new new fascist army, and a lot

559
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 4: of people had defected from the previous Italian army, but

560
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 4: if you were still a part of the army, then

561
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 4: you are now officially on basically germany side. And so

562
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 4: if you were escaping this army or also they were

563
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 4: taking people off the street and sending them to Germany

564
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 4: just to basically work as labor. And so these folks

565
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: are like, screw you all, I'm not going to just

566
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 4: do what you tell me. Yeah, basically are a punk song

567
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 4: that says that I'm going to make my well. First

568
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 4: they were just hiding out in the you know, in

569
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 4: the mountains, in old barns, and then they're like, we're

570
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 4: going to come together and they're going to form their

571
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 4: own resistance army. And so that's what happened over the

572
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 4: couple months after Germany occupied Italy, starting at the beginning

573
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 4: of September nineteen forty three.

574
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: It's fascinating to me because when I had my little

575
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: sort of impression prior to doing more deep dives into

576
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: Italian stuff, and I didn't know a quarter of what

577
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: you just told me, but you have the sort of

578
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: impression that you're like, oh, as soon as there's fascism,

579
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: there's partisans, right, Because in France, you can kind of

580
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: say that right as soon as the Vshi government takes over,

581
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: people are like, well, we don't like this, we don't

582
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: like fascism. We're going to take to the hills and

583
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: start fighting. And I'd always sort of imagined that in

584
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: Italy that as soon as the war had started, people

585
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: would take to the mountains and start fighting. But the

586
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: thing that you're describing makes so much more sense and

587
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: is what actually happened, which is once they're occupied by

588
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 2: another country, than they formed partisans and start fighting. And

589
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: that's it's interesting to me. I'm like a little sad

590
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: because I wanted to Italy to just be really fighty

591
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 2: and never put up with fascism, you know. But then

592
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: it also is interesting because then you're talking about so

593
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: some of the partisans were in the Italian Army while

594
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: it was an Axis power, so they were acts as

595
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: soldiers who then also then fought on the other side,

596
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: and that's fascinating.

597
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, I went through kind of my

598
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: own awakening around that where you tend to think, yeah,

599
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 4: that as soon as something unjust is happening, that suddenly

600
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: people rise up and they're like, yes, we will fight

601
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 4: this thing.

602
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, movements don't come fully formed, right, and especially.

603
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 4: When you have what was unique about what was happening

604
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 4: in Italy and a lot of historians, you know, call

605
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: it a war on two fronts, is that you had

606
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: a people who were fighting the Nazis, fighting World War two,

607
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 4: but they were also fighting for their own freedom.

608
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: They were fighting a civil war.

609
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 4: So you had plenty of Italians who were siding with

610
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 4: the fashions, siding with the Nazis, people who were like,

611
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: even if they weren't explicitly political, they thought, well, if

612
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 4: I tell in my neighbor, maybe I won't get looked at,

613
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 4: you know, Or if I can continue, you know, being

614
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: a night watchman or whatever and putting up with their agenda,

615
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 4: maybe I'll get better rations. And so you had plenty

616
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 4: of people who it wasn't an ideological choice, it was

617
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 4: just made their life easier to kind of side with

618
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 4: the guys who seemed to have power. And then you

619
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 4: had a lot of people who just most of the

620
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: people just tried to, you know, just just lay low

621
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: and not you know, even if they felt one way

622
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 4: or the other, they just didn't want to get involved.

623
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 4: And then you really only had a relatively small percentage

624
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 4: of people who were actively fighting who were part of

625
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 4: the movement. And what was so necessary is that as

626
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: the occupation went on, as we moved towards the end

627
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: of World War two, is you had more and more

628
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 4: people supporting the movement. And it was so necessary because obviously,

629
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 4: if you are fighting an entire army, you're much you know,

630
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 4: you're less resourced than the Nazis, but they were incredibly

631
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 4: scrappy for what they were able to accomplish despite the

632
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: fact that they were so under resourced.

633
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if there's if you're ever the under

634
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: resourced army, you should be on your own territory and

635
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: in the mountain. Those are the two things you want.

636
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: Maybe swamps inaccessible and your own that's that's the territory

637
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: you want, you.

638
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: Know, the paths.

639
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 4: And then like the old lady up the street, you

640
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 4: know she's gonna hide you under her bails of Hey,

641
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 4: I mean these are ye like real like those are

642
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: the real stories.

643
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: Well, let's let's hear some of the real stories. Do

644
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: you want to tell me about? Well, I'm going to

645
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: say some of them, but eventually I'm going to make

646
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: you tell me about all of the women that are

647
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: profiled in your book. But as Sophie has pointed out

648
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: to me, before we start profiling them, what we should

649
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: really profile is the fact that everything's moral compromise. Here's

650
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: ads and we're back.

651
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: Uh.

652
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell me about some of the

653
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: some of these folks.

654
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: Sure.

655
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 4: So the woman on the front of the book of

656
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 4: which all of your listeners are going to go out

657
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 4: and find this book. I'm looking at the book right now.

658
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 4: So the woman with the cigarette. But don't smoke people.

659
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: Unless you're about to die in a war, and then

660
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: you're allowed one cigarette exactly.

661
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: I mean, they didn't know how bad cigarettes were, right, Yeah.

662
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: And all these women survived the war, so really they

663
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: had no excuse.

664
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

665
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 4: Anyway, I mean, sorry, Carla did get cancer, but I

666
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 4: don't know if it was Lincoln anyway, She this is

667
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: Carla Caponi, And I mean I can't well, I can't

668
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 4: play favorites, but she does.

669
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: Have some really great moments.

670
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: She's the fightiest of them, right yeah.

671
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's well she's the gorilla fighter. Who is

672
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,719
Speaker 4: who's right you know, in front of people like hiding

673
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: around buildings and things where you have Anita who will

674
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: get to is in the mountains fighting. But Carla, so

675
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 4: she's brought up. Her dad dies when she's in high school,

676
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 4: and she finds out kind of near the end of

677
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 4: his life that he was pretty anti fascist, because this

678
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 4: is the in and you know, a roundabout way that

679
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 4: he died.

680
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: He was in mine. He was a mining executive.

681
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 4: They had they had a decent amount of money, and

682
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 4: the fascist already wanted him to join the fat at

683
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 4: some party organization, and he refused, and so they got

684
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 4: mad at him and they sent him, i think, to

685
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 4: Albania and he ends up dying in a mining accident.

686
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 4: And so she's like, you know, of course upset about this,

687
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: and so she's kind of, you know, she knows that

688
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 4: her family has been kind of priming her to be

689
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: anti fascist her whole life.

690
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 3: But she didn't really know what to do.

691
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 4: And so in the very beginning, in fact, it's the

692
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 4: first it's in the prologue, the first scene of the book,

693
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: the Allies bomb Italy because of course Italy's on the

694
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: other side, and they bomb Rome the rally ards that

695
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: are right near the Tairmany station, and so she's working

696
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 4: pretty close by and she just is motivated. She's like,

697
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: I need to do something, and she's you know, dressed

698
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 4: very nicely, like she'd liked to be a little fancy,

699
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: and she just goes to where all this destruction happens

700
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 4: and she starts to you know, help out.

701
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: And so this is kind of the first moment.

702
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 4: And then this is before Musolini was deposed, and then

703
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 4: a couple of days later, actually about a week a

704
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: little over a week later, Mussolini is now kicked out,

705
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 4: and so now she starts to connect in those that

706
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 4: forty five day period, which is known as.

707
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: The forty five days convenient I know exactly.

708
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 4: So between when Mussolini's deposed and the armistice happens and

709
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 4: the Germans take over, that forty five day period is

710
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 4: when a lot happened. So she connects with a lot

711
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 4: of particularly women in the in the movement, and so

712
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: they're teaching her things that she never learned. She didn't

713
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 4: know about, you know, what was happening in the Russian Revolution,

714
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 4: she didn't know it. Have really had very much political

715
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: education at all, and so political education was so important

716
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 4: for all of these women.

717
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 3: They all have their own moments of political.

718
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 4: Education, and part of it is the actual history and

719
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: knowing about these different structures of you know, like what

720
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 4: is the communists and you know, reading these books, like

721
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 4: you know, books by Marx that were just very hard

722
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: to come across in Italy. I mean, I don't know

723
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 4: if they were outright banned, but I think they were

724
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: just very much suppressed. And so when they you know,

725
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 4: reading these things and like, oh my god, I have

726
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 4: this whole new understanding of this world because for so

727
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 4: many of these women and the Italians more broadly, they

728
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 4: just didn't know very much what life was like outside

729
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: of Italy because what do you.

730
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: Do if you're an authoritarian government? You just try to

731
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: ignore history or.

732
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: Change it and limit education and exactly.

733
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: And so she gets hooked up with these resistance folks,

734
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 4: and then after the occupation she is kind of employed

735
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 4: to do some of this career ing that people start

736
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 4: publishing a lot of these underground newspapers, and so she

737
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: helps to bring those around.

738
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 3: She's bringing information.

739
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: It's basically an information network, these couriers where they would

740
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 4: you know, they all have these little cells or these

741
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 4: groups all around the city, and so they'd go and

742
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,959
Speaker 4: get news and bring news and then bring them back

743
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 4: and she gets hooked up with the Gapesti and these

744
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: are the Gorilla fighters. And originally it was just dudes,

745
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 4: of course, but they realize that it's quite handy because

746
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 4: these guys are being snatched off the streets, especially young men.

747
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: They might not have.

748
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: Been they might have been a little old to be drafted,

749
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 4: but certainly they would be under suspicion. You have some

750
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 4: guys just standing in the square, I don't know, watching

751
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 4: Nazis walk by. So they needed the women to kind of,

752
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 4: you know, make kissy face at them on the park

753
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: bench and.

754
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: Pretend that they were young lovers. And so that's what

755
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: they did.

756
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: The women wear their cover, but she ends up, you know,

757
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 4: being an active member, and they would go into for example,

758
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 4: there might be a bunch of fascist trucks parked outside

759
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 4: of the Opera, which is very close to her house.

760
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 4: This was the fun part about researching this is that,

761
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 4: I mean, Rome has been roughly the same for a

762
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 4: really long time, and so I could.

763
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 3: Map where she was and where all of.

764
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 4: These places were, and so I went to this, you know,

765
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 4: I go to these squares where I know, eighty one

766
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: two years ago things were bombed, and you could.

767
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: Just in some pieces exactly.

768
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 4: In some cases you could see the marks still on

769
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 4: the buildings.

770
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 3: It was really really wild, and so they would place

771
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: she and.

772
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: Wait, wait I kind of spoiled it. But what happened?

773
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: She goes to the opera house and what oh, and then.

774
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 3: She and her her this.

775
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 4: Guy who ends up being her partner in in the

776
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 4: CAPSI do you know, I'd have to look up the

777
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 4: exact I mean they were called like the Yeah, it's

778
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 4: a it's an abbreviation GAP.

779
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: That could be oh, the action probably.

780
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, something like that.

781
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 4: And so she and her partner would put the bombs.

782
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 4: They have these sticky bombs that they would stick on

783
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 4: the trucks and then they'd have to light the fuse

784
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 4: and then basically run away before it blew up.

785
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 2: So she's stuck smoking. I mean, if you're going to

786
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 2: go I don't smoke, and no one's just smoking. But

787
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: if you're stock putting sticky bombs in the fuse, I mean.

788
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 4: You have to have matches, right, I mean yeah, yeah,

789
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: so they would, you know, they did different actions like this,

790
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 4: and there's a couple really dramatic.

791
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: Ones and.

792
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: So yeah, so she's kind of moving around Rome and

793
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: things are getting really desperate, and she becomes you know,

794
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: full on part of these partisans, and they her her

795
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 4: partisan group. I mean there's a different cells of capzies around,

796
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: but you know, a couple of books that she would

797
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 4: work with. I mean she you know, she assassinates someone

798
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 4: at one point, and then they planned this audacious act

799
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 4: where they're going to place this giant bomb. And they've

800
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: been watching this German battalion that would go take this

801
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 4: trek every day, and so they place this bomb and

802
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 4: it ends up having very dramatic and it makes them

803
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 4: totally This is they're now marked people. They are now

804
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 4: on the hunt because they've killed so many Germans. And

805
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 4: then someone gives.

806
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: Them away a very I don't even want to spoil

807
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: this part of the story. And so they go on

808
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: the run.

809
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, that's fair. You should you should intentionally leave

810
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: some things to make sure that the listeners become readers.

811
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, story is so crazy.

812
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 4: And then the amazing part is when they're I mean

813
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 4: this whole it was interesting, this whole part on the run.

814
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 4: You know, I'm getting things from Carla wrote a memoir

815
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 4: and her her partner in partner in crime. He wrote

816
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: multiple memoirs.

817
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: And so I called the gap.

818
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 4: Sorry, and so yeah, so I'm getting these stories from

819
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 4: a lot of different places, but yeah, someone betrays them

820
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 4: and they have to go on the run. But it's

821
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 4: this is still this is the via Rosella attacks that

822
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 4: I'm talking about, and it's still very controversial because the

823
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 4: Nazi retribution was pretty.

824
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 3: Awful after that.

825
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 4: But what pisses me off about this is that they're

826
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 4: mad that the Partisans did an action during war that

827
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: was against the people who were terrorizing, and they were saying, oh,

828
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: you should have known.

829
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: That they would have done a reprisal.

830
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm like, that's victim blaming people. I mean,

831
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 4: this is a time of war. This is what you

832
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 4: need to doe.

833
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: That is one of the most common stories in radical

834
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: history and just normal history and going about your life

835
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: is the like who are you more mad at? Are

836
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: you more mad at the fascists or the anti fascists

837
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 2: who are trying to stop the fascists, and like whether

838
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: or not you approve of the specific action, although that

839
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: action's that sounds totally normal, Like I just think about

840
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: it where you're like, the Allies are dropping bombs on

841
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: the city.

842
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: And you're gonna be mad at yeah.

843
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: Like I don't even think bombing civilian centers is ethical,

844
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: but I'm not. I'm glad I'm not in charge of

845
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: a military you know. Yes, But like I was reading

846
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: besides a little bit of your book, I read the

847
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: auto translation of the Wikipedia from Italian cup. None of

848
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: the good stuff is in the English Wikipedia, and I

849
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: was just reading about like, yeah, she would just like

850
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: go out at night and shoot random people, not random,

851
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: she would go shoot Nazis in the back at night,

852
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: but then felt really bad about it. It seems to

853
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: be there.

854
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: There was one moment that I do detail in the book.

855
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 4: I don't know if she went around at least she

856
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: I don't think she would around.

857
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: Not for my research she did.

858
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: Your research is so much more likely than an auto

859
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 2: translation of an I don't use Wikipedia as a source

860
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: in this show. I just was trying to read about

861
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: this before I interviewed you.

862
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 3: This was there was a moment.

863
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 4: It was her first killing, and and she did feel

864
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 4: very bad, but she realized that this is this is

865
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 4: what you need to do. I mean, here are people

866
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 4: who are you know, killing so many Jewish people who

867
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 4: are killing, targeting her friends, terrorizing the entire city, the

868
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: entire you know, much of the world section of the world.

869
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 4: And she realized she made peace with it herself. She's like,

870
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 4: I can't I can't feel bad about this. This is

871
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 4: this is warm and this is what I have to do.

872
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you're saving lives at that point, exactly.

873
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 2: You know, it is a net gain of human life

874
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: in that particular situation. I'm not making great and statements

875
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: more broadly, yeah, yeah.

876
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 4: And so Rome is the first because if you're imagining how,

877
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 4: you know, how Italy is being liberated, you had the Allies.

878
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 4: They they landed in Sicily first, actually before MUSSLINI was deposed,

879
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 4: just southern Italy exactly, and then they started then they

880
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: then they made it their way to the mainland south

881
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: of Rome, but it took them forever to get to Rome,

882
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 4: and so Rome wasn't liberated until how many eight nine

883
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 4: months after they were originally occupied. And so now you

884
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 4: have the Allies coming up from the south. And you know,

885
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 4: even for people who have visited Italy, and I mean

886
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 4: I had visited a number of times before I was

887
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 4: doing this research, and it wasn't until this research where

888
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 4: I realized.

889
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 3: Italy is full of mountains. There's many mountain ranges.

890
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 4: And you know, usually you're going to these cities and

891
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 4: you're just like, oh, maybe I went through a mountain,

892
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 4: but you don't think about it because the trains, you know,

893
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 4: they go through mountains, and so it's really hard to

894
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 4: rain when when the Allies are coming, you know, up

895
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 4: northward from the south.

896
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 3: And then they also were getting distracted.

897
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 4: They don't necessarily care that much about liberating Italy because

898
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 4: Italy they were the bad guys anyway, so they didn't

899
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 4: have this great opinion of the Italian folks, and they weren't.

900
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: Everyone was completely anti racist on the Ally side. You

901
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: must have misread something somewhere along the way. It wasn't

902
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 2: a segregated US army. I don't know what you're talking about.

903
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: Everyone had yeah.

904
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 3: We're sorry, we're all friends, we work together.

905
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 4: So it took a while for these for the Italian

906
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 4: Partisans who are now you know, they're they're obviously on

907
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 4: the same side as the Allies, like let's all just

908
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 4: you know, kill these Nazis, and it took a little

909
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 4: while for them to have the trust of the Allies.

910
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 4: And also they really could have used some more guns

911
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 4: and maybe some winter coats and stuff. They didn't have

912
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 4: a lot of supplies, and so you know, it took

913
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 4: a little bit for the Allies to start to give

914
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 4: them more more resources, and they would do drops into,

915
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 4: you know, in fields and stuff in this very you know,

916
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 4: interesting co orinated way that I talk about using secret

917
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 4: code words.

918
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: And so if you need to know how to coordinate

919
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, you're going to have to read.

920
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: The book exactly if you want to do secret jobs.

921
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 4: And so they but they eventually were making their way northward,

922
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 4: but it took much longer than you would think. So

923
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 4: Italy was the first place to be liberated at the

924
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 4: beginning of June nineteen.

925
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: Forty four, and then it would take a while.

926
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 4: Florence was next, and maybe we could talk about today's.

927
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: A well, I was thinking that probably we should talk

928
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: about today's on Wednesday. That sounds great, But instead we're

929
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: going to leave people here in this land of they

930
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen. Well they do, they

931
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: know that Italy is going to get liberated, but you

932
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: don't know what Today's is going to do. And I

933
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: would have said, Teresa, so I'm really glad that you

934
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: told me how to pronounce her name. So that's our cliffhanger.

935
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: We're going to learn about more people. But first, well,

936
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 2: I guess there's at least one thing you probably want

937
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: to plug, which is your book. But anything else you

938
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: want to plug here at the end.

939
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 3: No, I would. I would love y'allda to buy the book.

940
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 4: There's so much in there that that I can't talk

941
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 4: about in two episodes.

942
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well you're you're good at this. You should

943
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: be a professor. That was one of the main things

944
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: I was thinking while you were talking. So well, thank you,

945
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: and yeah, what do I have to plug? I have

946
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: a book coming out in June. It's called The Immortal

947
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: Choir Holds Every Voice. Yeah, it's a it's a It's

948
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: book three in the Danielle Kaine series. And if you

949
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: want to hear me read the first two, you can

950
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: check out Coolszone Media Book Club. So have you got

951
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 2: anything you want to plug?

952
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 3: Listen to.

953
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 1: Like, who do I want to plug today?

954
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 3: It's like picking.

955
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: It's like picking like your favorite child.

956
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: It's horrible.

957
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: I know it could happen here. I don't think we've

958
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 2: plugged them in a while.

959
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: That it could happen here. Yeah, that's nice. That means

960
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 1: there's several children in that.

961
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: There we go. Yeah, that seems nice, multiple of your

962
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 2: children or your favorite child.

963
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go with that. Listen to It Could Happen Here,

964
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: a daily podcast that talks about the crumbles of society

965
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: and how we can make things better for each other.

966
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: I usually feel better when I listen to it. That's

967
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 2: my big plug for it.

968
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 3: That sounds like a great sentiment.

969
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll try, all right, bye everyone.

970
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

971
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

972
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

973
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

974
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: your podcasts.