WEBVTT - Joan Baez 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:28.996 Pushkin. Joan Baez has always used her voice as a 0:00:29.076 --> 0:00:37.356 tool for social change. Show me the Prison, show me 0:00:37.476 --> 0:00:49.676 the jan show me the Prisoners Lie. At the height 0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:52.396 of her career in the nineteen sixties, Joan was known 0:00:52.436 --> 0:00:55.396 the world over as the Queen of Folk. She used 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:57.596 her fame to help spread the tenets of non violence 0:00:57.836 --> 0:01:00.916 and was a close ally to doctor Martin Luther King Junior. 0:01:01.996 --> 0:01:04.516 Joan also helped introduce Bob Dylan to the world by 0:01:04.556 --> 0:01:06.756 giving them stage time at her shows when she was 0:01:06.796 --> 0:01:10.396 the biggest ticket in town and he was a complete unknown. 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:14.996 In this conversation with Rick Rubin, Joan explains why, after 0:01:15.036 --> 0:01:18.476 performing for over sixty years, she recently made the decision 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:21.476 to stop singing. She also talks about the time she 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:23.476 and Pete Seeger were run out of town by local 0:01:23.516 --> 0:01:27.116 cops after a performance, and how is a badge of honor? 0:01:27.196 --> 0:01:30.236 When the Brazilian government banned her music because they felt 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:37.716 it made people too emotional. This is broken record liner 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:45.516 notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmontain. You're a 0:01:45.596 --> 0:01:50.716 Rick Rubin and Joan Bias. How are you hey, mountain man. 0:01:51.276 --> 0:01:54.316 Nice to see you, Nice to see you. Everything well, 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:57.756 it's been a minute. It's been a minute. Everything's just 0:01:57.796 --> 0:02:00.916 as good as it can be, Beautiful, Tell what's been 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:05.796 going on? What's been going on? Let me think. Well, 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:08.636 I made the decision and quit touring, as you know, 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:11.476 and on New Year's Eve, I made the decision to 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:14.196 not sing at all. So people can't say it, would 0:02:14.236 --> 0:02:16.796 you just do this one? Just that's it. You know, 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:20.276 I'm ready to do other things and don't want to 0:02:20.276 --> 0:02:23.996 put the effort into making this voice sound right, and 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:27.396 it doesn't anyway, So so I'm free of that, which 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:30.516 is wonderful, beautiful. What tell me a little bit about 0:02:30.516 --> 0:02:33.676 the work that would go into keeping your voice working 0:02:33.716 --> 0:02:36.436 in the way that you wanted at work? Well, first 0:02:36.436 --> 0:02:38.716 of all, I had was just hanging on to old 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:43.556 recordings of the last teacher I had, and that went 0:02:43.636 --> 0:02:46.116 back about a year, and I was just doing a 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:48.836 couple of hers just to get through. I didn't bother 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:52.956 anything new. And then my granddaughter started studying with Max 0:02:53.036 --> 0:02:57.636 and Lewis. She was an I cat back in the day, 0:02:57.996 --> 0:03:01.436 and she teaches and she's wonderful and was working well 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:04.116 for Jasmine, and I thought, well, I'd like to sing 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:07.356 with Jasmine a little bit before I stop all this, 0:03:07.996 --> 0:03:11.556 and so I started working with Max Sam was totally 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:14.436 different from anybody else, but one way or another, it 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:18.236 involves conscientious work. You know, it should be five days 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:21.116 of weeks, even if it's twenty minutes a sec. That 0:03:21.356 --> 0:03:25.876 concentrated takes you away from everything else. And honestly, if 0:03:25.996 --> 0:03:28.556 I if the voice sounded more like what I really 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:30.996 wanted to sound like, I made a stuck with it. 0:03:31.036 --> 0:03:34.076 But it won't matter how hard I work. Now you 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:36.796 know they're a muscle in there is not going to 0:03:36.876 --> 0:03:40.076 be what it was, and I'd rather let it all 0:03:40.116 --> 0:03:44.636 go interesting. It's I got to work with Johnny Cash 0:03:44.756 --> 0:03:48.116 at the end of his career and his voice was 0:03:48.196 --> 0:03:51.636 definitely failing at the end, and it was really it 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:56.956 really impacted him emotionally in a great way, in a 0:03:57.036 --> 0:04:03.596 terrible way, exactly, and we found a way through the 0:04:03.756 --> 0:04:07.676 emotion of the words that he was singing to not 0:04:07.836 --> 0:04:11.156 have it being negative but be positive that it wasn't 0:04:11.756 --> 0:04:14.396 that his voice was failing. It's that the things that 0:04:14.436 --> 0:04:19.076 he was singing about were so difficult that it made 0:04:19.156 --> 0:04:23.436 sense for to have difficulty in the words coming out. 0:04:23.516 --> 0:04:25.956 So I don't know, it was at least there was 0:04:25.956 --> 0:04:27.716 a method that worked. If you ever decide to try 0:04:27.716 --> 0:04:30.316 it again, if you ever get the mood that you 0:04:30.356 --> 0:04:32.796 can make it work for you instead of against you. 0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:36.796 I think because my saying was this voice, you know, 0:04:37.196 --> 0:04:40.876 I mean, yeah, good wine and so on up to 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:44.036 a certain point, and then you I mean, and Johnny 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:47.236 because of the nature of himself and his work and 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:49.276 his voice and his songs, he didn't have to do 0:04:49.676 --> 0:04:52.636 that stuff. He just bared his soul. And that's why 0:04:52.676 --> 0:04:56.836 those last albums were so gorgeous. He was apparently happy 0:04:56.916 --> 0:04:59.876 with what was coming out of him. Yeah, he was, 0:04:59.956 --> 0:05:02.476 but he during I will say, during the period, he 0:05:02.556 --> 0:05:06.996 was very uncomfortable with his voice, yeah, and really questioned it. 0:05:07.076 --> 0:05:11.356 And he would say that his voice was the one 0:05:11.436 --> 0:05:13.436 thing that he could always rely upon and now he 0:05:13.476 --> 0:05:17.116 couldn't rely upon that anymore, and it really it made 0:05:17.196 --> 0:05:20.516 him uncomfortable. And we all go through I mean, anybody 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:23.116 who sings that. You don't know that when you're young, 0:05:23.196 --> 0:05:25.796 there's no way to know it. But it's a certain point. 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:30.076 The muscles are like a tennis player just gonna start giving, 0:05:30.356 --> 0:05:33.636 you know, So at any rate, that was New Year's Eve, 0:05:33.716 --> 0:05:38.356 So yeah, tell me about the very what was the 0:05:38.436 --> 0:05:41.796 very last performance in front of an audience, your last concert? 0:05:42.356 --> 0:05:45.876 It was in Spain. It was in Madrid, and it 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:48.516 was glorious. I mean there was a big concert hall. 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:51.716 It was beautiful. It was filled with people. And I 0:05:51.876 --> 0:05:58.756 had Emanciato Prava, a guitar songwriter, singer, famous, you know 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:01.476 the kind everybody goes ah when he walks on the stage. 0:06:01.636 --> 0:06:04.156 And he and I worked on a song together and 0:06:04.196 --> 0:06:06.956 sang it together and it was a big emotional moment 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:12.276 for everybody. And then I sang and that was basically it. 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:14.516 And I got an encore and I sang what I 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:18.196 had been singing, which was if I had wings, and 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:23.036 said goodbye that way. Yeah. What was the emotion of 0:06:23.116 --> 0:06:28.156 the feeling like this is it? Well, I was already 0:06:29.156 --> 0:06:33.356 feeling what was coming, and it was a relief. And 0:06:33.396 --> 0:06:35.756 I wondered, often, is this something I'm going to really 0:06:35.796 --> 0:06:38.956 wish that I know? Everybody says, oh yeah, I'll be 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:41.036 back on the road, and I thought, well, maybe to 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:44.076 be fair, I should leave that open. But I had 0:06:44.236 --> 0:06:47.836 never a second. It was my people and the bus, 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:52.396 my friends, my co workers, the engineer, sound likes. That's 0:06:52.436 --> 0:06:56.756 what I missed, but not being on the stage, not 0:06:56.876 --> 0:06:59.716 all that stuff. It just I mean, and partly I 0:06:59.716 --> 0:07:02.636 think is I walked right into the painting. You know, 0:07:03.516 --> 0:07:06.996 it was like shifting or shifting into another gear, and 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:11.516 so I just something final and wonderful about it. We 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:14.196 were all exhausted because it was the end of it 0:07:14.276 --> 0:07:16.596 was the end of our emotions too. I mean, we're 0:07:16.596 --> 0:07:22.156 all wiped out with that. Yeah. Interesting that so many people, 0:07:22.516 --> 0:07:26.276 we think of, so many artists, have a difficult time 0:07:26.316 --> 0:07:29.756 walking away from it. Yeah. But for some reason, I 0:07:29.756 --> 0:07:32.996 get the sense that you've always had as much of 0:07:33.036 --> 0:07:36.356 a life outside of performance, where so many artists that's all, 0:07:36.476 --> 0:07:39.756 that's all they have, So it seems like you've always 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:44.036 had an inner life to come back to. I think 0:07:44.076 --> 0:07:47.356 that's true. I think partly at the very beginning, when 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:52.236 I was so disciplined and stiff, and this is you know, 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:56.036 traditional songs and everything else was commercial, it set me 0:07:56.156 --> 0:08:00.036 on a path where I had to I had to 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:05.156 keep my spiritual life in order. I'd keep my body 0:08:05.196 --> 0:08:08.236 in order. But I didn't fall into a lot of stuff, 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:10.476 but a lot of my friends did. I never did 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:13.596 the drugs. I'm sure I missed out on a lot 0:08:13.676 --> 0:08:16.436 of stuff. I'm sure that I did. But yeah, I 0:08:16.556 --> 0:08:20.596 pretty much kept it together and there even though you know, 0:08:20.636 --> 0:08:23.556 I went through some heavy duty therapy and found out 0:08:23.556 --> 0:08:26.516 stuff I hadn't known that was causing different behaviors in 0:08:26.636 --> 0:08:29.476 me that I didn't have control of. That basically, there 0:08:29.516 --> 0:08:33.276 was a core there that stayed on track. When did 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:37.276 you first start doing therapy, Hope? You know, I mean 0:08:37.316 --> 0:08:40.076 a lot of therapists. When I was fifteen, I started 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:44.436 getting help from different doctors. Yeah, and that went right 0:08:44.476 --> 0:08:48.356 on through. And I started the deep stuff when I 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:51.556 was fifty, and you know, that was a different kind 0:08:51.596 --> 0:08:54.156 of therapy that was saying, Okay, there's something in here, 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:56.316 I'm going to dig it out. And you know, obviously 0:08:56.356 --> 0:08:58.796 I can't talk about the details, but the fact was 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:02.236 there was therapy that helped me stay together, and there 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:04.636 was therapy that helped me fall apart and put the 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:10.316 pieces back together. So wow, beautiful, Yeah, beautiful. I'm glad. 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:13.556 I'm glad that you found you found help through those 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:17.316 through that work. It's it's it's a miracle when you 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:21.476 find the right you know, the right connection and when 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:23.556 you see where it can go, it's an amazing thing. 0:09:23.716 --> 0:09:25.636 And you know, I think I felt the way A 0:09:25.676 --> 0:09:29.836 lot of people, maybe most people feel that you can changes, 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:33.516 you can switch that, but basically nothing ever changes, and 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:37.476 that for me anyway, has not been true. I mean, 0:09:37.476 --> 0:09:41.196 the change was was just transformative. It tooks a long 0:09:41.276 --> 0:09:43.556 time and a lot of work, but I don't have 0:09:43.636 --> 0:09:45.836 to go through the stuff that I did. You know 0:09:45.956 --> 0:09:48.716 back then, do you have or have you ever had 0:09:48.716 --> 0:09:53.116 a spiritual practice? You know, I've always either invented my 0:09:53.196 --> 0:09:56.396 own or dipped into different people's for a while. And 0:09:56.596 --> 0:09:58.676 the one that makes the most sense to me, but 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:01.956 also takes a discipline that I little short of, is 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:07.796 just Buddhist practice, you know, just trying to be mindful 0:10:07.916 --> 0:10:12.196 and aware. And I always I mean parents were became 0:10:12.276 --> 0:10:15.476 Quakers when I was eight, and so that brought in 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:21.356 the whole nonviolence and in the active part of Quakerism, 0:10:21.396 --> 0:10:24.636 which is American Friends Service Committee, you get involved in 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:28.356 people in the world who need more than we have, 0:10:29.076 --> 0:10:34.076 and so that was a way way back seeing wherever 0:10:34.116 --> 0:10:36.236 the spirit wove in and out of that. I mean, 0:10:36.316 --> 0:10:39.956 my father, his father's father was Catholic, and my father's 0:10:39.996 --> 0:10:43.716 father was a Methodist minister, which means he left Catholicism 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:48.076 in Mexico, and that was not exactly the thing to 0:10:48.156 --> 0:10:52.156 do in those days. And my father preached in his church. Oh, 0:10:52.276 --> 0:10:56.476 my father was eighteen. They were Presbyterian in New York. 0:10:56.956 --> 0:11:01.356 My mother's father was an Episcopalian minister who preached at 0:11:01.396 --> 0:11:03.716 that beautiful church in the middle. I didn't know this. 0:11:03.916 --> 0:11:08.396 I was visiting Edinburgh and that gorgeous little church that 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:10.596 writes back in the middle of town. You can't get 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:13.276 pictures of it because it's too big. You can't back 0:11:13.356 --> 0:11:16.436 off far enough. That's where he preached. So there was 0:11:16.516 --> 0:11:23.476 always a whole line of preachers. Amazing, amazing. Do you 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:29.636 feel like that that the preaching in your blood worked 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:33.836 its way into the music, both since it worked my 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:36.796 way into by talking too much and people in the 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:40.276 hall saying, why don't you shut up and sing? I 0:11:40.276 --> 0:11:42.916 mean I heard that more than once, really, and I 0:11:43.356 --> 0:11:45.636 get it, you know that. I was so intent on 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:49.756 saying what I felt no people should hear, or what 0:11:49.836 --> 0:11:53.316 it was on my mind or politically or spiritually, and 0:11:53.356 --> 0:11:56.916 so I would just, you know, damn the torpedoes and 0:11:57.396 --> 0:12:01.556 say what I needed to say. Tell me more about 0:12:02.156 --> 0:12:05.196 the Quaker faith. I know very little. The only you're 0:12:05.236 --> 0:12:08.276 the first person to ever tell me about about Quakerism. 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:12.476 And is it called Quakerism, Yeah, that's Quakerism. Basically, the 0:12:12.556 --> 0:12:16.236 Quakers are just about the only religion, formal religion that 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:19.916 really will not condone violence. I mean, not World War two, 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:23.236 the favorite wars. You really have to find another way 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:27.036 to live, and it's pretty much a constant challenge, especially 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:29.756 you know, in days like this and a world like this, 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:34.076 a country like this, and so it's an attempt to 0:12:34.156 --> 0:12:39.276 live with through and by non violence. Meaning the bottom 0:12:39.316 --> 0:12:42.716 line is that you are willing to accept suffering but 0:12:42.756 --> 0:12:47.116 not inflicted. So that really determines how you behave publicly 0:12:47.316 --> 0:12:51.116 and personally. And it's very challenging and there are times 0:12:51.116 --> 0:12:54.796 that I am just impossible that you lose track of that. Yeah, 0:12:55.596 --> 0:12:58.636 let's talk about the world that you came into as 0:12:58.636 --> 0:13:01.116 a musician. Tell me about what the world was like 0:13:01.356 --> 0:13:04.676 when you first started making music. We know I was 0:13:04.756 --> 0:13:08.996 already politicized. But what happened was I moved to came 0:13:09.156 --> 0:13:12.476 Bridge and I had heard Odetta and Pete Seeger and 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:16.396 Harry Bellafonti, and those are my introduction, and I heard 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:18.876 the Kingston Trio and I wouldn't admit that to anybody 0:13:18.876 --> 0:13:21.436 because they were supposed to be commercial, but I loved them. 0:13:22.156 --> 0:13:25.116 And then it moved to Cambridge and I the only 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:27.956 school that accepted me because my grades were terrible and 0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:30.996 I had no interest in going to school, was Boston 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:34.836 University Fine Arts. So I was kind of halfway there. 0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:36.716 And then I was fell in love with a guy 0:13:36.756 --> 0:13:39.996 from Harvard, and I wandered around Harvard Square and started 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:43.436 playing in the coffee shops and so at that point 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:46.596 the politics all kind of shriveled up for a while 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:48.316 because I was just busy being in love. And that 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:50.476 went on for two years, and that's where all those 0:13:50.516 --> 0:13:55.476 early Ballots came from. I mean, the political music didn't 0:13:55.516 --> 0:13:58.636 start showing up until it was think it was actually gone. 0:13:58.676 --> 0:14:01.076 On my side was probably the second or third album, 0:14:01.716 --> 0:14:04.876 but the first one was just strictly Ballots. So the 0:14:04.996 --> 0:14:08.636 scene around me was coffee shop, you know people. And 0:14:08.796 --> 0:14:10.596 I wasn't in New York. People think I was in 0:14:10.636 --> 0:14:13.796 New York. I was mostly in Cambridge at the club 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:16.676 forty seven, and so I was in this I remember 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:20.636 walking past one of these coffee shops. My father regretted 0:14:20.636 --> 0:14:24.156 it forever, but he had never seen coffee shop activity 0:14:24.196 --> 0:14:27.436 and students sitting around with somebody performing, So he took 0:14:27.436 --> 0:14:30.556 his three daughters and his wife to see this phenomenon. 0:14:30.996 --> 0:14:34.716 And I looked in one coffee shop, Tula's Coffee Shop, 0:14:34.796 --> 0:14:37.836 and I saw a guy sitting and was playing Plasier 0:14:38.036 --> 0:14:41.476 mur And that was it. I mean, that was just it. 0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:43.676 That's why I wanted to be and what I wanted 0:14:43.716 --> 0:14:47.316 to do. It was it mostly music or was there 0:14:47.316 --> 0:14:50.916 also poetry? And tell me about the coffee shop scene. Well, 0:14:50.956 --> 0:14:53.596 a coffee shop scene where I was in Cambridge was 0:14:53.716 --> 0:14:59.596 not so much poetry to my memory, it was music. 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:03.156 The coffee shop Club forty seven, where I ended up 0:15:03.196 --> 0:15:06.396 singing a few days a week ten dollars a night 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:08.676 to start with, it was a big money for me, 0:15:09.316 --> 0:15:12.236 had been a jazz club and the women who ran 0:15:12.356 --> 0:15:15.596 it were hip enough to see this folk boom coming 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:17.956 into play, so they took two nights a week and 0:15:18.036 --> 0:15:20.796 made it a folk club, and eventually that's what it 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:25.036 was completely And I was a steady I at the 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:28.596 very beginning of that, I was I guess tuesdays. To 0:15:28.676 --> 0:15:31.916 begin with, I sang every Tuesday, and then pretty soon 0:15:32.116 --> 0:15:36.236 people songwriters came in, some known, some not known, Eric 0:15:36.316 --> 0:15:40.956 von Schmidt, very unknown types, a lot of them. That's 0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:44.116 where I got, you know, they were not famous people 0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:47.476 I learned the songs from. Was it hard finding songs 0:15:47.516 --> 0:15:52.116 back then? Well, because everywhere, because I'm a good robber, 0:15:52.356 --> 0:15:57.396 you know, And all I had to do is I 0:15:57.476 --> 0:16:00.636 mean for those ballots, because that's what I loved. They 0:16:00.676 --> 0:16:03.956 were everywhere and you could find Geane Ritchie give you 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:08.556 a whole album's worth of gorgeous old ballots. After a 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:15.556 quick break, we'll be right back with Joan Bayass. We're 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:19.196 back with more from Joan Bayaz and Rick Ruby. So 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:22.956 you're singing in the coffee shop world. And then when 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:26.716 do protest songs make their appearance? Well, you know, before 0:16:26.836 --> 0:16:31.036 this little love affair I had with my Harvard boyfriend, 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:34.956 I had already sung, say, I learned the first Emmett 0:16:34.956 --> 0:16:37.636 Till that came out, I mean I was already there 0:16:37.676 --> 0:16:40.396 in my head. And then there was a kind of 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:43.556 a dip, and then I wanted desperately to have the 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:47.596 songs that could express some of these feelings and the 0:16:48.836 --> 0:16:52.556 obviously when Dylan came along, it was pretty early in 0:16:52.636 --> 0:16:55.276 the game, but that feel that, you know, That's what 0:16:55.476 --> 0:16:59.756 was missing, was that kind of well. He generated so 0:16:59.796 --> 0:17:02.156 many of them, and they were so good and up 0:17:02.196 --> 0:17:04.876 till then I had sung that we shall overcomes, and 0:17:04.916 --> 0:17:07.396 I can't remember them right now, but I was certainly 0:17:07.396 --> 0:17:12.636 already known as a protest singer or protest type. What 0:17:12.676 --> 0:17:14.716 was the first song of his that you heard? Do 0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:17.236 you remember? I think it was hard Rain, he said 0:17:17.236 --> 0:17:19.916 of somebody's house, and I think that's what it was. 0:17:20.596 --> 0:17:24.756 And soon after that was Got on my Side. Got 0:17:24.796 --> 0:17:26.596 on my Side is the first one that I sang 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:30.916 of his. And we were somewhere probably in the South. 0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:34.876 It was boiling hot, and I remember I don't sweat much, 0:17:34.916 --> 0:17:37.996 but the back of my legs it was dripping down 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:42.236 from behind my knees, and I had the words out 0:17:42.236 --> 0:17:44.196 there because I've never sung it before. And I think 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:48.076 Bob was off the side of the stage and wherever 0:17:48.156 --> 0:17:51.076 I sang God on my Side. And later at some 0:17:51.156 --> 0:17:54.316 point he and I were doing concerts together and we 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:58.956 sang William z and Zinger killed Poor Hetty Carroll, The 0:17:58.996 --> 0:18:02.396 Lonesome Death of Hetty Carroll, And the story is about, 0:18:02.796 --> 0:18:05.196 you know, a rich guy basically kills his maid because 0:18:05.196 --> 0:18:08.156 he gets ticked off, it throws his cane across the room. Well, 0:18:08.196 --> 0:18:10.756 we sang it in the area where that guy lived, 0:18:12.116 --> 0:18:16.236 and we suddenly thought, you know, we better get out 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:20.796 of here in a hurry. So that's apropos of not 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:26.036 much except that those were extraordinary days musically. Have you 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:29.596 ever had an issue with censorship? Like? Was where is 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:32.556 your music ever banned? Or were you ever asked not 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:35.956 to perform somewhere because of what you were saying? Now, 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:38.796 the first incomes to mind was performing with Pizza or 0:18:38.796 --> 0:18:43.956 when I was really really young and we realized as 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:46.796 we got into our cars to take off, we thought 0:18:46.796 --> 0:18:51.316 the police were escorting us, they were chasing us. I mean, 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:53.556 they did not want us. I don't remember, somewhere in 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:56.036 the East Coast because he was a pink o comy 0:18:56.116 --> 0:19:00.116 and I was his upstart, you know, so starting pretty young. 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:03.196 The answer is yeah, and they're you know, they're countries 0:19:03.236 --> 0:19:06.916 where my songs have been banned and I've been banned, 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:10.556 and it's sort of a badge of honor. Really. I 0:19:10.596 --> 0:19:15.036 mean I went to visit Latin America. It was Pinochet 0:19:15.156 --> 0:19:20.396 was still in control, but exiles my exile friends here said, 0:19:20.436 --> 0:19:23.156 you know, there's this chance that they're opening up down there. 0:19:23.396 --> 0:19:25.836 This is a good time to go and sing and 0:19:25.956 --> 0:19:28.156 do what it is you do. It was too early, 0:19:28.316 --> 0:19:33.316 and I was banned in Argentina, Chile and Brazil, and so, 0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:36.156 I mean to know, came to the hotel door and 0:19:36.196 --> 0:19:39.516 with a piece of paper saying listen, don't get any 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:42.076 more than X number of feet from the microphone or 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:46.436 you'll be arrested. So yeah, again, that's a badge of 0:19:46.476 --> 0:19:49.876 honor in one of those countries. Yeah, tell me about 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:55.676 Pete Seeger. Pete Seeger first influence. So I don't remember this, 0:19:55.756 --> 0:19:57.716 but my aunt said that she took me to a 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:02.916 Seeger concert and my parents were frantic because all I 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:05.556 was listening to was rhythm and blues. I have a 0:20:05.556 --> 0:20:08.716 little plastic gray radio at night. I listened as late 0:20:08.756 --> 0:20:11.196 as I in the night, rhythm and blues, all the 0:20:11.236 --> 0:20:14.516 black groups. And they thought I'd never go beyond that. 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:17.596 And so she took me to a Pete Seeger concert, 0:20:17.636 --> 0:20:20.116 and they said it took like a good vaccine. You 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:23.796 know that I got it that he was my kind 0:20:23.796 --> 0:20:27.396 of guy, because I was already you know, socially conscious, 0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:30.716 and this guy was doing it both doing it all, 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:34.156 you know. And I'm happy to say that when he 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:37.516 was banned from radio and TV that I had a 0:20:37.596 --> 0:20:40.516 chance to do my bit for him when this Hoot 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:43.196 and Nanny show invited me on and I said, I'll 0:20:43.196 --> 0:20:44.916 come on as soon as you have Pete back on, 0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:49.076 and they did. Said was there a particular song that 0:20:49.156 --> 0:20:52.916 he was banned for? I don't think so. I think 0:20:52.916 --> 0:20:55.556 it was the whole thing, you know. I'm not sure, 0:20:55.596 --> 0:20:59.996 but he was banned. He couldn't say anything anywhere. Do 0:20:59.996 --> 0:21:02.436 you think it was specifically for speaking out against war? 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:06.316 He was at that time period when you were either 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:09.036 a pink or you weren't, you know, were you a communist? 0:21:09.436 --> 0:21:14.076 And he wouldn't say one way or another. You don't so. No, 0:21:14.196 --> 0:21:18.516 it was during those years of McCarthy, just before, just 0:21:18.636 --> 0:21:23.636 after ording, and he wouldn't say the things you're supposed 0:21:23.636 --> 0:21:28.316 to say or name anybody else. Did you like being 0:21:28.356 --> 0:21:31.476 around him? Like spending time with him? He's a funny man. 0:21:31.636 --> 0:21:34.716 He was so shy. He was so shy when I 0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:38.956 sang for him at the Kennedy Center Awards and afterwards 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:42.236 it was a big gathering and dinner and it's dancing 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:46.356 and I went up to him. I said, hey, Pete, congratulations. 0:21:46.356 --> 0:21:55.076 He said, Joan, Joan, joan, and that's all I said, Pete, Pete, 0:21:55.236 --> 0:21:59.636 and I went off and danced with Walter Cronkite. Clearly 0:21:59.756 --> 0:22:03.396 Pete was not gonna dance. He was just shy. In 0:22:03.436 --> 0:22:05.356 his way of saying hello. Also was to put a 0:22:05.436 --> 0:22:08.756 banjo between you and him, and he say, I'm at 0:22:08.796 --> 0:22:11.756 a a meta guy in guatemal He started plunking on 0:22:11.796 --> 0:22:13.796 the on the banger. That way, he didn't have to 0:22:13.836 --> 0:22:16.516 deal with anybody. That's what I think beautiful. And it 0:22:16.596 --> 0:22:19.516 was a sweetheart. No, he was the big sweetheart. And 0:22:19.596 --> 0:22:22.876 he died in the wool to his dying day. Did 0:22:22.916 --> 0:22:24.916 not like having drums. Why do you have to have 0:22:25.036 --> 0:22:27.996 drums in your band? Why do you have to have percussion? 0:22:28.716 --> 0:22:31.396 And so he stayed. He hung in there as a 0:22:31.636 --> 0:22:35.596 you know, a diehard purist. Tell me about first you're 0:22:35.876 --> 0:22:39.236 The first record company round was Vanguard Records, which was 0:22:39.516 --> 0:22:42.796 known for folk music mainly would you say classical and 0:22:42.836 --> 0:22:45.676 then folk? Were you one of the early folk artists 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:49.476 on the label. Pete Seeger was there and the Weavers 0:22:49.476 --> 0:22:54.356 were there, but I was the first major. Pete Seeger 0:22:54.436 --> 0:22:57.476 was a major artist, but this brought it on one 0:22:57.556 --> 0:23:01.476 level closer to culture as opposed to just counterculture. Yeah yeah, 0:23:01.516 --> 0:23:04.436 I mean that's a fun story too. I just I 0:23:04.596 --> 0:23:09.716 was well Albert Grossman, who was the guy who managed 0:23:09.956 --> 0:23:13.796 everybody back then eventually was Dylan and Peter Paul and 0:23:13.916 --> 0:23:17.756 Mary and Janice Joplin and so on, and so Albert 0:23:17.916 --> 0:23:21.436 wanted me to sign with Columbia, which had all these 0:23:21.556 --> 0:23:24.596 artists and which was the biggest and the place to go, 0:23:25.476 --> 0:23:28.756 and that always frightened me. You know, I was looking 0:23:28.756 --> 0:23:32.116 for something where I felt more at home, and classical 0:23:32.196 --> 0:23:36.596 music is what was played in my house. And al 0:23:36.636 --> 0:23:38.876 took me to New York City and he wanted me 0:23:38.916 --> 0:23:41.836 to go to Columbia first. And when we were in Columbia, 0:23:41.836 --> 0:23:43.716 he tried literally try to get me to sign a 0:23:43.796 --> 0:23:47.716 contract there on the spot. And then I said, well, 0:23:47.956 --> 0:23:50.156 you know, now I want to go to Vanguard. He 0:23:50.236 --> 0:23:52.596 really didn't want me to go there, but I did. 0:23:52.676 --> 0:23:55.436 I liked the guy I could. You know. It wasn't 0:23:55.436 --> 0:23:58.356 the showbiz stuff. They didn't have gold albums on the wall, 0:23:58.436 --> 0:24:01.636 they didn't have any gold albums, you know. And I 0:24:01.676 --> 0:24:04.316 was comfortable there and it was clear that. I mean, 0:24:04.396 --> 0:24:07.596 I spent a week trying to trying to figure it 0:24:07.636 --> 0:24:11.676 out because everybody except my parents said, you know, honey, 0:24:11.716 --> 0:24:15.716 you should really go with Columbia and and I didn't. 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:19.556 And you know, I probably would have sold more albums 0:24:19.676 --> 0:24:23.236