1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Joan Baez has always used her voice as a 2 00:00:29,076 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: tool for social change. Show me the Prison, show me 3 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:49,676 Speaker 1: the jan show me the Prisoners Lie. At the height 4 00:00:49,676 --> 00:00:52,396 Speaker 1: of her career in the nineteen sixties, Joan was known 5 00:00:52,436 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: the world over as the Queen of Folk. She used 6 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:57,596 Speaker 1: her fame to help spread the tenets of non violence 7 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 1: and was a close ally to doctor Martin Luther King Junior. 8 00:01:01,996 --> 00:01:04,516 Speaker 1: Joan also helped introduce Bob Dylan to the world by 9 00:01:04,556 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 1: giving them stage time at her shows when she was 10 00:01:06,796 --> 00:01:10,396 Speaker 1: the biggest ticket in town and he was a complete unknown. 11 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:14,996 Speaker 1: In this conversation with Rick Rubin, Joan explains why, after 12 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: performing for over sixty years, she recently made the decision 13 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:21,476 Speaker 1: to stop singing. She also talks about the time she 14 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: and Pete Seeger were run out of town by local 15 00:01:23,516 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 1: cops after a performance, and how is a badge of honor? 16 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:30,236 Speaker 1: When the Brazilian government banned her music because they felt 17 00:01:30,236 --> 00:01:37,716 Speaker 1: it made people too emotional. This is broken record liner 18 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmontain. You're a 19 00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin and Joan Bias. How are you hey, mountain man. 20 00:01:51,276 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: Nice to see you, Nice to see you. Everything well, 21 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 1: it's been a minute. It's been a minute. Everything's just 22 00:01:57,796 --> 00:02:00,916 Speaker 1: as good as it can be, Beautiful, Tell what's been 23 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 1: going on? What's been going on? Let me think. Well, 24 00:02:06,316 --> 00:02:08,636 Speaker 1: I made the decision and quit touring, as you know, 25 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: and on New Year's Eve, I made the decision to 26 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,196 Speaker 1: not sing at all. So people can't say it, would 27 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: you just do this one? Just that's it. You know, 28 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:20,276 Speaker 1: I'm ready to do other things and don't want to 29 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 1: put the effort into making this voice sound right, and 30 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,396 Speaker 1: it doesn't anyway, So so I'm free of that, which 31 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: is wonderful, beautiful. What tell me a little bit about 32 00:02:30,516 --> 00:02:33,676 Speaker 1: the work that would go into keeping your voice working 33 00:02:33,716 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 1: in the way that you wanted at work? Well, first 34 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:38,716 Speaker 1: of all, I had was just hanging on to old 35 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:43,556 Speaker 1: recordings of the last teacher I had, and that went 36 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: back about a year, and I was just doing a 37 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:48,836 Speaker 1: couple of hers just to get through. I didn't bother 38 00:02:48,916 --> 00:02:52,956 Speaker 1: anything new. And then my granddaughter started studying with Max 39 00:02:53,036 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: and Lewis. She was an I cat back in the day, 40 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 1: and she teaches and she's wonderful and was working well 41 00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:04,116 Speaker 1: for Jasmine, and I thought, well, I'd like to sing 42 00:03:04,156 --> 00:03:07,356 Speaker 1: with Jasmine a little bit before I stop all this, 43 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:11,556 Speaker 1: and so I started working with Max Sam was totally 44 00:03:11,556 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 1: different from anybody else, but one way or another, it 45 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:18,236 Speaker 1: involves conscientious work. You know, it should be five days 46 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 1: of weeks, even if it's twenty minutes a sec. That 47 00:03:21,356 --> 00:03:25,876 Speaker 1: concentrated takes you away from everything else. And honestly, if 48 00:03:25,996 --> 00:03:28,556 Speaker 1: I if the voice sounded more like what I really 49 00:03:28,556 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 1: wanted to sound like, I made a stuck with it. 50 00:03:31,036 --> 00:03:34,076 Speaker 1: But it won't matter how hard I work. Now you 51 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:36,796 Speaker 1: know they're a muscle in there is not going to 52 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:40,076 Speaker 1: be what it was, and I'd rather let it all 53 00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:44,636 Speaker 1: go interesting. It's I got to work with Johnny Cash 54 00:03:44,756 --> 00:03:48,116 Speaker 1: at the end of his career and his voice was 55 00:03:48,196 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: definitely failing at the end, and it was really it 56 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 1: really impacted him emotionally in a great way, in a 57 00:03:57,036 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: terrible way, exactly, and we found a way through the 58 00:04:03,756 --> 00:04:07,676 Speaker 1: emotion of the words that he was singing to not 59 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:11,156 Speaker 1: have it being negative but be positive that it wasn't 60 00:04:11,756 --> 00:04:14,396 Speaker 1: that his voice was failing. It's that the things that 61 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: he was singing about were so difficult that it made 62 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:23,436 Speaker 1: sense for to have difficulty in the words coming out. 63 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:25,956 Speaker 1: So I don't know, it was at least there was 64 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 1: a method that worked. If you ever decide to try 65 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: it again, if you ever get the mood that you 66 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:32,796 Speaker 1: can make it work for you instead of against you. 67 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:36,796 Speaker 1: I think because my saying was this voice, you know, 68 00:04:37,196 --> 00:04:40,876 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, good wine and so on up to 69 00:04:40,876 --> 00:04:44,036 Speaker 1: a certain point, and then you I mean, and Johnny 70 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:47,236 Speaker 1: because of the nature of himself and his work and 71 00:04:47,236 --> 00:04:49,276 Speaker 1: his voice and his songs, he didn't have to do 72 00:04:49,676 --> 00:04:52,636 Speaker 1: that stuff. He just bared his soul. And that's why 73 00:04:52,676 --> 00:04:56,836 Speaker 1: those last albums were so gorgeous. He was apparently happy 74 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,876 Speaker 1: with what was coming out of him. Yeah, he was, 75 00:04:59,956 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 1: but he during I will say, during the period, he 76 00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:06,996 Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable with his voice, yeah, and really questioned it. 77 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 1: And he would say that his voice was the one 78 00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:13,436 Speaker 1: thing that he could always rely upon and now he 79 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 1: couldn't rely upon that anymore, and it really it made 80 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 1: him uncomfortable. And we all go through I mean, anybody 81 00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 1: who sings that. You don't know that when you're young, 82 00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 1: there's no way to know it. But it's a certain point. 83 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:30,076 Speaker 1: The muscles are like a tennis player just gonna start giving, 84 00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 1: you know, So at any rate, that was New Year's Eve, 85 00:05:33,716 --> 00:05:38,356 Speaker 1: So yeah, tell me about the very what was the 86 00:05:38,436 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 1: very last performance in front of an audience, your last concert? 87 00:05:42,356 --> 00:05:45,876 Speaker 1: It was in Spain. It was in Madrid, and it 88 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 1: was glorious. I mean there was a big concert hall. 89 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:51,716 Speaker 1: It was beautiful. It was filled with people. And I 90 00:05:51,876 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 1: had Emanciato Prava, a guitar songwriter, singer, famous, you know 91 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: the kind everybody goes ah when he walks on the stage. 92 00:06:01,636 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 1: And he and I worked on a song together and 93 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:06,956 Speaker 1: sang it together and it was a big emotional moment 94 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 1: for everybody. And then I sang and that was basically it. 95 00:06:12,476 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 1: And I got an encore and I sang what I 96 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:18,196 Speaker 1: had been singing, which was if I had wings, and 97 00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:23,036 Speaker 1: said goodbye that way. Yeah. What was the emotion of 98 00:06:23,116 --> 00:06:28,156 Speaker 1: the feeling like this is it? Well, I was already 99 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: feeling what was coming, and it was a relief. And 100 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:35,756 Speaker 1: I wondered, often, is this something I'm going to really 101 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 1: wish that I know? Everybody says, oh yeah, I'll be 102 00:06:38,996 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 1: back on the road, and I thought, well, maybe to 103 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: be fair, I should leave that open. But I had 104 00:06:44,236 --> 00:06:47,836 Speaker 1: never a second. It was my people and the bus, 105 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 1: my friends, my co workers, the engineer, sound likes. That's 106 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:56,756 Speaker 1: what I missed, but not being on the stage, not 107 00:06:56,876 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: all that stuff. It just I mean, and partly I 108 00:06:59,716 --> 00:07:02,636 Speaker 1: think is I walked right into the painting. You know, 109 00:07:03,516 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: it was like shifting or shifting into another gear, and 110 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: so I just something final and wonderful about it. We 111 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:14,196 Speaker 1: were all exhausted because it was the end of it 112 00:07:14,276 --> 00:07:16,596 Speaker 1: was the end of our emotions too. I mean, we're 113 00:07:16,596 --> 00:07:22,156 Speaker 1: all wiped out with that. Yeah. Interesting that so many people, 114 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 1: we think of, so many artists, have a difficult time 115 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:29,756 Speaker 1: walking away from it. Yeah. But for some reason, I 116 00:07:29,756 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 1: get the sense that you've always had as much of 117 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 1: a life outside of performance, where so many artists that's all, 118 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 1: that's all they have, So it seems like you've always 119 00:07:39,756 --> 00:07:44,036 Speaker 1: had an inner life to come back to. I think 120 00:07:44,076 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 1: that's true. I think partly at the very beginning, when 121 00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: I was so disciplined and stiff, and this is you know, 122 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: traditional songs and everything else was commercial, it set me 123 00:07:56,156 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 1: on a path where I had to I had to 124 00:08:01,636 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: keep my spiritual life in order. I'd keep my body 125 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:08,236 Speaker 1: in order. But I didn't fall into a lot of stuff, 126 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 1: but a lot of my friends did. I never did 127 00:08:10,556 --> 00:08:13,596 Speaker 1: the drugs. I'm sure I missed out on a lot 128 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 1: of stuff. I'm sure that I did. But yeah, I 129 00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:20,596 Speaker 1: pretty much kept it together and there even though you know, 130 00:08:20,636 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 1: I went through some heavy duty therapy and found out 131 00:08:23,556 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 1: stuff I hadn't known that was causing different behaviors in 132 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:29,476 Speaker 1: me that I didn't have control of. That basically, there 133 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 1: was a core there that stayed on track. When did 134 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:37,276 Speaker 1: you first start doing therapy, Hope? You know, I mean 135 00:08:37,316 --> 00:08:40,076 Speaker 1: a lot of therapists. When I was fifteen, I started 136 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 1: getting help from different doctors. Yeah, and that went right 137 00:08:44,476 --> 00:08:48,356 Speaker 1: on through. And I started the deep stuff when I 138 00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 1: was fifty, and you know, that was a different kind 139 00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 1: of therapy that was saying, Okay, there's something in here, 140 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:56,316 Speaker 1: I'm going to dig it out. And you know, obviously 141 00:08:56,356 --> 00:08:58,796 Speaker 1: I can't talk about the details, but the fact was 142 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:02,236 Speaker 1: there was therapy that helped me stay together, and there 143 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: was therapy that helped me fall apart and put the 144 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:10,316 Speaker 1: pieces back together. So wow, beautiful, Yeah, beautiful. I'm glad. 145 00:09:10,356 --> 00:09:13,556 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you found you found help through those 146 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 1: through that work. It's it's it's a miracle when you 147 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 1: find the right you know, the right connection and when 148 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 1: you see where it can go, it's an amazing thing. 149 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: And you know, I think I felt the way A 150 00:09:25,676 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 1: lot of people, maybe most people feel that you can changes, 151 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 1: you can switch that, but basically nothing ever changes, and 152 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:37,476 Speaker 1: that for me anyway, has not been true. I mean, 153 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:41,196 Speaker 1: the change was was just transformative. It tooks a long 154 00:09:41,276 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 1: time and a lot of work, but I don't have 155 00:09:43,636 --> 00:09:45,836 Speaker 1: to go through the stuff that I did. You know 156 00:09:45,956 --> 00:09:48,716 Speaker 1: back then, do you have or have you ever had 157 00:09:48,716 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: a spiritual practice? You know, I've always either invented my 158 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 1: own or dipped into different people's for a while. And 159 00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:58,676 Speaker 1: the one that makes the most sense to me, but 160 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 1: also takes a discipline that I little short of, is 161 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 1: just Buddhist practice, you know, just trying to be mindful 162 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: and aware. And I always I mean parents were became 163 00:10:12,276 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 1: Quakers when I was eight, and so that brought in 164 00:10:15,556 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 1: the whole nonviolence and in the active part of Quakerism, 165 00:10:21,396 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: which is American Friends Service Committee, you get involved in 166 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: people in the world who need more than we have, 167 00:10:29,076 --> 00:10:34,076 Speaker 1: and so that was a way way back seeing wherever 168 00:10:34,116 --> 00:10:36,236 Speaker 1: the spirit wove in and out of that. I mean, 169 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:39,956 Speaker 1: my father, his father's father was Catholic, and my father's 170 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:43,716 Speaker 1: father was a Methodist minister, which means he left Catholicism 171 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: in Mexico, and that was not exactly the thing to 172 00:10:48,156 --> 00:10:52,156 Speaker 1: do in those days. And my father preached in his church. Oh, 173 00:10:52,276 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 1: my father was eighteen. They were Presbyterian in New York. 174 00:10:56,956 --> 00:11:01,356 Speaker 1: My mother's father was an Episcopalian minister who preached at 175 00:11:01,396 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 1: that beautiful church in the middle. I didn't know this. 176 00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:08,396 Speaker 1: I was visiting Edinburgh and that gorgeous little church that 177 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:10,596 Speaker 1: writes back in the middle of town. You can't get 178 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:13,276 Speaker 1: pictures of it because it's too big. You can't back 179 00:11:13,356 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 1: off far enough. That's where he preached. So there was 180 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 1: always a whole line of preachers. Amazing, amazing. Do you 181 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 1: feel like that that the preaching in your blood worked 182 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 1: its way into the music, both since it worked my 183 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:36,796 Speaker 1: way into by talking too much and people in the 184 00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 1: hall saying, why don't you shut up and sing? I 185 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:42,916 Speaker 1: mean I heard that more than once, really, and I 186 00:11:43,356 --> 00:11:45,636 Speaker 1: get it, you know that. I was so intent on 187 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 1: saying what I felt no people should hear, or what 188 00:11:49,836 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 1: it was on my mind or politically or spiritually, and 189 00:11:53,356 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: so I would just, you know, damn the torpedoes and 190 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:01,556 Speaker 1: say what I needed to say. Tell me more about 191 00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:05,196 Speaker 1: the Quaker faith. I know very little. The only you're 192 00:12:05,236 --> 00:12:08,276 Speaker 1: the first person to ever tell me about about Quakerism. 193 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:12,476 Speaker 1: And is it called Quakerism, Yeah, that's Quakerism. Basically, the 194 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:16,236 Speaker 1: Quakers are just about the only religion, formal religion that 195 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:19,916 Speaker 1: really will not condone violence. I mean, not World War two, 196 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:23,236 Speaker 1: the favorite wars. You really have to find another way 197 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: to live, and it's pretty much a constant challenge, especially 198 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 1: you know, in days like this and a world like this, 199 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: a country like this, and so it's an attempt to 200 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 1: live with through and by non violence. Meaning the bottom 201 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:42,716 Speaker 1: line is that you are willing to accept suffering but 202 00:12:42,756 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 1: not inflicted. So that really determines how you behave publicly 203 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 1: and personally. And it's very challenging and there are times 204 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 1: that I am just impossible that you lose track of that. Yeah, 205 00:12:55,596 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: let's talk about the world that you came into as 206 00:12:58,636 --> 00:13:01,116 Speaker 1: a musician. Tell me about what the world was like 207 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 1: when you first started making music. We know I was 208 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 1: already politicized. But what happened was I moved to came 209 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:12,476 Speaker 1: Bridge and I had heard Odetta and Pete Seeger and 210 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 1: Harry Bellafonti, and those are my introduction, and I heard 211 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: the Kingston Trio and I wouldn't admit that to anybody 212 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: because they were supposed to be commercial, but I loved them. 213 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: And then it moved to Cambridge and I the only 214 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:27,956 Speaker 1: school that accepted me because my grades were terrible and 215 00:13:27,996 --> 00:13:30,996 Speaker 1: I had no interest in going to school, was Boston 216 00:13:31,116 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 1: University Fine Arts. So I was kind of halfway there. 217 00:13:34,876 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 1: And then I was fell in love with a guy 218 00:13:36,756 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 1: from Harvard, and I wandered around Harvard Square and started 219 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:43,436 Speaker 1: playing in the coffee shops and so at that point 220 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 1: the politics all kind of shriveled up for a while 221 00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 1: because I was just busy being in love. And that 222 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: went on for two years, and that's where all those 223 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:55,476 Speaker 1: early Ballots came from. I mean, the political music didn't 224 00:13:55,516 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 1: start showing up until it was think it was actually gone. 225 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: On my side was probably the second or third album, 226 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: but the first one was just strictly Ballots. So the 227 00:14:04,996 --> 00:14:08,636 Speaker 1: scene around me was coffee shop, you know people. And 228 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 1: I wasn't in New York. People think I was in 229 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 1: New York. I was mostly in Cambridge at the club 230 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 1: forty seven, and so I was in this I remember 231 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:20,636 Speaker 1: walking past one of these coffee shops. My father regretted 232 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 1: it forever, but he had never seen coffee shop activity 233 00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:27,436 Speaker 1: and students sitting around with somebody performing, So he took 234 00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 1: his three daughters and his wife to see this phenomenon. 235 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:34,716 Speaker 1: And I looked in one coffee shop, Tula's Coffee Shop, 236 00:14:34,796 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 1: and I saw a guy sitting and was playing Plasier 237 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 1: mur And that was it. I mean, that was just it. 238 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:43,676 Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to be and what I wanted 239 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 1: to do. It was it mostly music or was there 240 00:14:47,316 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 1: also poetry? And tell me about the coffee shop scene. Well, 241 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: a coffee shop scene where I was in Cambridge was 242 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:59,596 Speaker 1: not so much poetry to my memory, it was music. 243 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:03,156 Speaker 1: The coffee shop Club forty seven, where I ended up 244 00:15:03,196 --> 00:15:06,396 Speaker 1: singing a few days a week ten dollars a night 245 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: to start with, it was a big money for me, 246 00:15:09,316 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 1: had been a jazz club and the women who ran 247 00:15:12,356 --> 00:15:15,596 Speaker 1: it were hip enough to see this folk boom coming 248 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: into play, so they took two nights a week and 249 00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 1: made it a folk club, and eventually that's what it 250 00:15:20,836 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 1: was completely And I was a steady I at the 251 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:28,596 Speaker 1: very beginning of that, I was I guess tuesdays. To 252 00:15:28,676 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: begin with, I sang every Tuesday, and then pretty soon 253 00:15:32,116 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 1: people songwriters came in, some known, some not known, Eric 254 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: von Schmidt, very unknown types, a lot of them. That's 255 00:15:40,956 --> 00:15:44,116 Speaker 1: where I got, you know, they were not famous people 256 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:47,476 Speaker 1: I learned the songs from. Was it hard finding songs 257 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:52,116 Speaker 1: back then? Well, because everywhere, because I'm a good robber, 258 00:15:52,356 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 1: you know, And all I had to do is I 259 00:15:57,476 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: mean for those ballots, because that's what I loved. They 260 00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 1: were everywhere and you could find Geane Ritchie give you 261 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: a whole album's worth of gorgeous old ballots. After a 262 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:15,556 Speaker 1: quick break, we'll be right back with Joan Bayass. We're 263 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:19,196 Speaker 1: back with more from Joan Bayaz and Rick Ruby. So 264 00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 1: you're singing in the coffee shop world. And then when 265 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:26,716 Speaker 1: do protest songs make their appearance? Well, you know, before 266 00:16:26,836 --> 00:16:31,036 Speaker 1: this little love affair I had with my Harvard boyfriend, 267 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:34,956 Speaker 1: I had already sung, say, I learned the first Emmett 268 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: Till that came out, I mean I was already there 269 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 1: in my head. And then there was a kind of 270 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:43,556 Speaker 1: a dip, and then I wanted desperately to have the 271 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:47,596 Speaker 1: songs that could express some of these feelings and the 272 00:16:48,836 --> 00:16:52,556 Speaker 1: obviously when Dylan came along, it was pretty early in 273 00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:55,276 Speaker 1: the game, but that feel that, you know, That's what 274 00:16:55,476 --> 00:16:59,756 Speaker 1: was missing, was that kind of well. He generated so 275 00:16:59,796 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 1: many of them, and they were so good and up 276 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:04,876 Speaker 1: till then I had sung that we shall overcomes, and 277 00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 1: I can't remember them right now, but I was certainly 278 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 1: already known as a protest singer or protest type. What 279 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 1: was the first song of his that you heard? Do 280 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 1: you remember? I think it was hard Rain, he said 281 00:17:17,236 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 1: of somebody's house, and I think that's what it was. 282 00:17:20,596 --> 00:17:24,756 Speaker 1: And soon after that was Got on my Side. Got 283 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:26,596 Speaker 1: on my Side is the first one that I sang 284 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 1: of his. And we were somewhere probably in the South. 285 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 1: It was boiling hot, and I remember I don't sweat much, 286 00:17:34,916 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: but the back of my legs it was dripping down 287 00:17:38,556 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 1: from behind my knees, and I had the words out 288 00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 1: there because I've never sung it before. And I think 289 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: Bob was off the side of the stage and wherever 290 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 1: I sang God on my Side. And later at some 291 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 1: point he and I were doing concerts together and we 292 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: sang William z and Zinger killed Poor Hetty Carroll, The 293 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:02,396 Speaker 1: Lonesome Death of Hetty Carroll, And the story is about, 294 00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:05,196 Speaker 1: you know, a rich guy basically kills his maid because 295 00:18:05,196 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 1: he gets ticked off, it throws his cane across the room. Well, 296 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,756 Speaker 1: we sang it in the area where that guy lived, 297 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 1: and we suddenly thought, you know, we better get out 298 00:18:16,236 --> 00:18:20,796 Speaker 1: of here in a hurry. So that's apropos of not 299 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 1: much except that those were extraordinary days musically. Have you 300 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:29,596 Speaker 1: ever had an issue with censorship? Like? Was where is 301 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:32,556 Speaker 1: your music ever banned? Or were you ever asked not 302 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: to perform somewhere because of what you were saying? Now, 303 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 1: the first incomes to mind was performing with Pizza or 304 00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 1: when I was really really young and we realized as 305 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: we got into our cars to take off, we thought 306 00:18:46,796 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 1: the police were escorting us, they were chasing us. I mean, 307 00:18:51,356 --> 00:18:53,556 Speaker 1: they did not want us. I don't remember, somewhere in 308 00:18:53,596 --> 00:18:56,036 Speaker 1: the East Coast because he was a pink o comy 309 00:18:56,116 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: and I was his upstart, you know, so starting pretty young. 310 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:03,196 Speaker 1: The answer is yeah, and they're you know, they're countries 311 00:19:03,236 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 1: where my songs have been banned and I've been banned, 312 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:10,556 Speaker 1: and it's sort of a badge of honor. Really. I 313 00:19:10,596 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: mean I went to visit Latin America. It was Pinochet 314 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:20,396 Speaker 1: was still in control, but exiles my exile friends here said, 315 00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:23,156 Speaker 1: you know, there's this chance that they're opening up down there. 316 00:19:23,396 --> 00:19:25,836 Speaker 1: This is a good time to go and sing and 317 00:19:25,956 --> 00:19:28,156 Speaker 1: do what it is you do. It was too early, 318 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:33,316 Speaker 1: and I was banned in Argentina, Chile and Brazil, and so, 319 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 1: I mean to know, came to the hotel door and 320 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 1: with a piece of paper saying listen, don't get any 321 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,076 Speaker 1: more than X number of feet from the microphone or 322 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: you'll be arrested. So yeah, again, that's a badge of 323 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: honor in one of those countries. Yeah, tell me about 324 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:55,676 Speaker 1: Pete Seeger. Pete Seeger first influence. So I don't remember this, 325 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: but my aunt said that she took me to a 326 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 1: Seeger concert and my parents were frantic because all I 327 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 1: was listening to was rhythm and blues. I have a 328 00:20:05,556 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: little plastic gray radio at night. I listened as late 329 00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 1: as I in the night, rhythm and blues, all the 330 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 1: black groups. And they thought I'd never go beyond that. 331 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:17,596 Speaker 1: And so she took me to a Pete Seeger concert, 332 00:20:17,636 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: and they said it took like a good vaccine. You 333 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 1: know that I got it that he was my kind 334 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 1: of guy, because I was already you know, socially conscious, 335 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 1: and this guy was doing it both doing it all, 336 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 1: you know. And I'm happy to say that when he 337 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:37,516 Speaker 1: was banned from radio and TV that I had a 338 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,516 Speaker 1: chance to do my bit for him when this Hoot 339 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:43,196 Speaker 1: and Nanny show invited me on and I said, I'll 340 00:20:43,196 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: come on as soon as you have Pete back on, 341 00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:49,076 Speaker 1: and they did. Said was there a particular song that 342 00:20:49,156 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 1: he was banned for? I don't think so. I think 343 00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:55,556 Speaker 1: it was the whole thing, you know. I'm not sure, 344 00:20:55,596 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 1: but he was banned. He couldn't say anything anywhere. Do 345 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:02,436 Speaker 1: you think it was specifically for speaking out against war? 346 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:06,316 Speaker 1: He was at that time period when you were either 347 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:09,036 Speaker 1: a pink or you weren't, you know, were you a communist? 348 00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 1: And he wouldn't say one way or another. You don't so. No, 349 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:18,516 Speaker 1: it was during those years of McCarthy, just before, just 350 00:21:18,636 --> 00:21:23,636 Speaker 1: after ording, and he wouldn't say the things you're supposed 351 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 1: to say or name anybody else. Did you like being 352 00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 1: around him? Like spending time with him? He's a funny man. 353 00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:34,716 Speaker 1: He was so shy. He was so shy when I 354 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 1: sang for him at the Kennedy Center Awards and afterwards 355 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:42,236 Speaker 1: it was a big gathering and dinner and it's dancing 356 00:21:42,276 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 1: and I went up to him. I said, hey, Pete, congratulations. 357 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 1: He said, Joan, Joan, joan, and that's all I said, Pete, Pete, 358 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 1: and I went off and danced with Walter Cronkite. Clearly 359 00:21:59,756 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 1: Pete was not gonna dance. He was just shy. In 360 00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:05,356 Speaker 1: his way of saying hello. Also was to put a 361 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:08,756 Speaker 1: banjo between you and him, and he say, I'm at 362 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: a a meta guy in guatemal He started plunking on 363 00:22:11,796 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 1: the on the banger. That way, he didn't have to 364 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: deal with anybody. That's what I think beautiful. And it 365 00:22:16,596 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 1: was a sweetheart. No, he was the big sweetheart. And 366 00:22:19,596 --> 00:22:22,876 Speaker 1: he died in the wool to his dying day. Did 367 00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: not like having drums. Why do you have to have 368 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:27,996 Speaker 1: drums in your band? Why do you have to have percussion? 369 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: And so he stayed. He hung in there as a 370 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 1: you know, a diehard purist. Tell me about first you're 371 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 1: The first record company round was Vanguard Records, which was 372 00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 1: known for folk music mainly would you say classical and 373 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:45,676 Speaker 1: then folk? Were you one of the early folk artists 374 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: on the label. Pete Seeger was there and the Weavers 375 00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 1: were there, but I was the first major. Pete Seeger 376 00:22:54,436 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: was a major artist, but this brought it on one 377 00:22:57,556 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 1: level closer to culture as opposed to just counterculture. Yeah yeah, 378 00:23:01,516 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: I mean that's a fun story too. I just I 379 00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: was well Albert Grossman, who was the guy who managed 380 00:23:09,956 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 1: everybody back then eventually was Dylan and Peter Paul and 381 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,756 Speaker 1: Mary and Janice Joplin and so on, and so Albert 382 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 1: wanted me to sign with Columbia, which had all these 383 00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 1: artists and which was the biggest and the place to go, 384 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:28,756 Speaker 1: and that always frightened me. You know, I was looking 385 00:23:28,756 --> 00:23:32,116 Speaker 1: for something where I felt more at home, and classical 386 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: music is what was played in my house. And al 387 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: took me to New York City and he wanted me 388 00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: to go to Columbia first. And when we were in Columbia, 389 00:23:41,836 --> 00:23:43,716 Speaker 1: he tried literally try to get me to sign a 390 00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:47,716 Speaker 1: contract there on the spot. And then I said, well, 391 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:50,156 Speaker 1: you know, now I want to go to Vanguard. He 392 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 1: really didn't want me to go there, but I did. 393 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,436 Speaker 1: I liked the guy I could. You know. It wasn't 394 00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,356 Speaker 1: the showbiz stuff. They didn't have gold albums on the wall, 395 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:01,636 Speaker 1: they didn't have any gold albums, you know. And I 396 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:04,316 Speaker 1: was comfortable there and it was clear that. I mean, 397 00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:07,596 Speaker 1: I spent a week trying to trying to figure it 398 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:11,676 Speaker 1: out because everybody except my parents said, you know, honey, 399 00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:15,716 Speaker 1: you should really go with Columbia and and I didn't. 400 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: And you know, I probably would have sold more albums 401 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:23,236 Speaker 1: and so on, but I've never regretted, you know, the 402 00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:30,556 Speaker 1: decision I made. Tell me about Albert Albert Albert Grossman. Yes, Oh, 403 00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 1: he was just you know, he was a big manager guy, 404 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 1: and he would make fun of me for not, you know, 405 00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:40,916 Speaker 1: for not having somebody cooler and more in the fast lane. 406 00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:42,756 Speaker 1: And he says something like, who do you want? Who 407 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 1: do you want? You want brando? I'll get your brando. 408 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: I'd say, al You're not winning me over with this, 409 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:52,476 Speaker 1: you know. Then with his stuff. On the other hand, 410 00:24:52,596 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 1: he was a generous man. He was generous with people 411 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,596 Speaker 1: with his money. But he was just in that fast 412 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:01,956 Speaker 1: lane where I was not going to be comfortable. Ever. 413 00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:06,076 Speaker 1: Do you think that he really appreciated the music? Actually 414 00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. I think. So It's easy for that 415 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 1: to get lost when you're starting to make the money 416 00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:14,076 Speaker 1: at the same time, but I think he did. Yeah. 417 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 1: When was the first time when you were performing and 418 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 1: you thought, wow, this is really getting to be a 419 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:20,156 Speaker 1: big like this is a big deal. You know, when 420 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:22,796 Speaker 1: I was in high school and I was singing and 421 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 1: I started singing of the you know, the talent shows 422 00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:30,276 Speaker 1: and stuff, and my friends were saying, oh boy, you 423 00:25:30,356 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 1: think you're going to be famous someday. I didn't know 424 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,156 Speaker 1: what they were talking about. My idea of the future 425 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: was the following week. I mean, I didn't look ahead 426 00:25:38,236 --> 00:25:41,156 Speaker 1: to that, and so it probably saved me a lot 427 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: of trouble. And then I thought, when I was really 428 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:47,476 Speaker 1: seriously in the public eye, I wouldn't use the word famous. 429 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:50,556 Speaker 1: I'd say, well, I'm well known. I'm well known, but 430 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 1: I mean by then, I mean the fuck I was 431 00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:57,236 Speaker 1: internationally famous. But I just didn't want to get into 432 00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 1: that aura. But with their particular performances where you just 433 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:05,396 Speaker 1: felt like, I don't know, the first time you played 434 00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:08,596 Speaker 1: Carnegie Hall or the first time you played any of 435 00:26:08,636 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: those moments where it just felt like, wow, this is 436 00:26:12,076 --> 00:26:15,076 Speaker 1: it's grown into something where you have to almost pinch 437 00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:17,756 Speaker 1: yourself if this is happening. Did you have those moments 438 00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:22,116 Speaker 1: along the way, you know, maybe early on Carnegie something 439 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 1: like Carnegie Hall, I think it was probably too busy 440 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:27,716 Speaker 1: being nervous then thinking about how you know what level 441 00:26:27,756 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 1: I've reached in the in the ladder of things. I 442 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: remember certain certain concerts that will always stand out to me, 443 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 1: like it's Stumble. It wasn't a stumble. It was south 444 00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:42,916 Speaker 1: of a Stumble, but in an outdoor two thousand year 445 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:47,396 Speaker 1: old amphitheater, and it was just as far as the beauty. 446 00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 1: Around me was a whole city that had been underwater 447 00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 1: at one point, so it was all white stones, Ephesus, 448 00:26:54,316 --> 00:26:57,116 Speaker 1: and I just was in heaven. They asked me back, 449 00:26:57,156 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 1: and I said, I'll come back in a full moon 450 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 1: if you'll get the city there to walk through there 451 00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 1: in the full moon, and they did. Yeah. It was 452 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: a big wall that sounds in edible, so beautiful. When 453 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: you would be on stage and when you'd be singing, 454 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:18,316 Speaker 1: are you thinking about the words? Are you thinking about 455 00:27:18,356 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: the story of the song, are you thinking about what 456 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:24,996 Speaker 1: you're doing? Are you taking in what's around you? Are 457 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: you hearing the audience? Do you disappear? What's the feeling 458 00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 1: that's going on inside during a concert? All of the above, Rick, 459 00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:37,836 Speaker 1: All of the above. I mean sometimes I'm thinking about 460 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:39,796 Speaker 1: the words because I have to, because I don't know 461 00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 1: them that well, or they're in a foreign language. Sometimes 462 00:27:43,196 --> 00:27:46,156 Speaker 1: I feel very much with the audience for doing a 463 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:50,596 Speaker 1: song together, and then I have to say that there 464 00:27:50,596 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: were times when the audience is so lousy that I 465 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:55,516 Speaker 1: am planning what I'm going to wear to bed on 466 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,476 Speaker 1: the bus and I didn't want to tell people that, 467 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 1: but I can now because it's all over. But there 468 00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 1: are those moments when you're doing your grocery list. But 469 00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:07,516 Speaker 1: for the most part, like ninety eight percent of the time, 470 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 1: you're there and watching and being with I had an 471 00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 1: un unfortunate characteristic of seeing everything, absolutely everything. If I 472 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:22,436 Speaker 1: see him, somebody tilt their wrist, I know they're looking 473 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: at their watch, and I'm thinking, oaks. I wonder if 474 00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 1: I'm going on too long, you know, so I caught 475 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 1: everything and somebody stifling a yawn, I would think the 476 00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: same thing, Oh dear, I've gone on long and so on. 477 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:44,716 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Joan Bayass. We're back 478 00:28:44,716 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 1: with the rest of Rick Ruban's conversation with Joan Byass. 479 00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 1: How would you say activism has changed over the course 480 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 1: of your life from how did you see it when 481 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:57,196 Speaker 1: you were fifteen and how do you see it now. Well, 482 00:28:57,196 --> 00:29:00,436 Speaker 1: in some ways it's absolutely consistent. You know, when I 483 00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:04,756 Speaker 1: was fifteen, was the first activism I did was on 484 00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 1: my own, and I stayed in school during an air raid. 485 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:12,156 Speaker 1: Drill was all, you know, sound goes off. Also was 486 00:29:12,196 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 1: to run home or have your parents pick you up 487 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:18,356 Speaker 1: before the bomb gets here from Russia, you know. And 488 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:20,956 Speaker 1: I asked my father, who's a physicist, how long it 489 00:29:20,956 --> 00:29:23,836 Speaker 1: would take a missile to get from Moscow to Palo 490 00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 1: alto high school. And it was clear to me that 491 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:30,916 Speaker 1: it was all just ridiculous. So as a you know, protest, 492 00:29:30,996 --> 00:29:36,316 Speaker 1: I stayed in class. And it's pretty fascinating. I mean 493 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:40,876 Speaker 1: I went down to the office and pink slip or 494 00:29:40,916 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 1: whatever and talked to the secretaries, the principle vice. Principally, 495 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,436 Speaker 1: I had no idea, you know, about what we were 496 00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 1: really doing on that day, So I started started early. 497 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,756 Speaker 1: And in some ways that the kind of protests you 498 00:29:55,836 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 1: do on your own, and you know, and as some 499 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:00,996 Speaker 1: of the some of the things I admire so much, 500 00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:04,196 Speaker 1: like you know, Gretta said Gretat Thumberg sitting in front 501 00:30:04,236 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 1: of Parliament all by herself, Kaepernick taking a knee all 502 00:30:08,196 --> 00:30:10,716 Speaker 1: by himself. You kind of cross your fingers and hope 503 00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 1: somebody will join you, but you do it anyway. So 504 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 1: that part remains the same. And I think trying to 505 00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: find a way to explain how it is we want 506 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:23,756 Speaker 1: to explain it, how we want people to hear us 507 00:30:24,276 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 1: is just it's different now. And it's different partly in 508 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 1: my mind because there was a period. There was a 509 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 1: time period when, as one young kid told me after 510 00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: that period said, you know, you guys had everything. You 511 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:40,796 Speaker 1: had the political reason to be on the streets, you 512 00:30:40,836 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 1: had the music, you had the songwriters, you had the glue. 513 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,436 Speaker 1: And what we're missing is the glue. I think that 514 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 1: the feeling that we're all together in this. And I 515 00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 1: can say that for young people who never experienced that. 516 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:57,476 Speaker 1: We all got to experience it when Obama was running 517 00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:00,916 Speaker 1: for office and it was a high five strangers on 518 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 1: the subway. That can't continue. I don't think when you're 519 00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 1: in office it didn't. But everybody that I know was 520 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:11,676 Speaker 1: aware enough to say, oh my god, this is what 521 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:15,316 Speaker 1: it could feel like. And we don't have that feeling now. 522 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:18,316 Speaker 1: We have lots of good things happening, we have people 523 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:22,956 Speaker 1: taking risks. We don't have that cohesive stuff that makes 524 00:31:23,036 --> 00:31:26,436 Speaker 1: us feel like a movement and be a movement. Have 525 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:33,036 Speaker 1: you seen protests any particular protest songs change in meaning 526 00:31:33,196 --> 00:31:35,836 Speaker 1: over the years, Like when you first heard them, they 527 00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 1: meant one thing, and then over time either the meaning 528 00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:40,836 Speaker 1: is changed or the context is change in a way 529 00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 1: where either the song becomes obsolete or it takes on 530 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:50,356 Speaker 1: a whole new interpretation. I have to tell you this 531 00:31:50,396 --> 00:31:52,596 Speaker 1: is a fun story too. I was in Brazil and 532 00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:55,676 Speaker 1: I was not allowed to sing anywhere officially. So I 533 00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:59,956 Speaker 1: got into a big audience. This was the plan, or 534 00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 1: to friends, who got me in the middle of an 535 00:32:01,596 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 1: audience and at a certain point the singer I was 536 00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:06,916 Speaker 1: supposed to sing, but they wouldn't let me. So the 537 00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:10,516 Speaker 1: person performing that night would stop and it would have 538 00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:13,396 Speaker 1: said something, and I would stand up by myself in 539 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,916 Speaker 1: the middle of this auditorium and sing. So I sang 540 00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:21,036 Speaker 1: a couple of songs, wonderful response. And then I sang 541 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:24,716 Speaker 1: a song. This probably the most famous song I've ever sung, 542 00:32:24,836 --> 00:32:27,396 Speaker 1: but it's in Europe. It's Here's to You. It's about 543 00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:30,836 Speaker 1: Saco and Vinzetti, and I sang this it's a little 544 00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:34,716 Speaker 1: kind of a little chant and it's so popular in 545 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:37,756 Speaker 1: Spain and Italy and France. It's what they wait for 546 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 1: at the end of the concert. And it's a protest song. 547 00:32:41,156 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 1: And I sang this, there was this dead silence. It 548 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:46,956 Speaker 1: had been taken to be used as a recruiting song 549 00:32:46,996 --> 00:32:52,396 Speaker 1: for the army. So yeah, that's exactly what you're talking about. 550 00:32:52,596 --> 00:32:56,156 Speaker 1: And that's amazing. It's amazing how these things can happen, 551 00:32:56,596 --> 00:32:59,236 Speaker 1: either with us watching them or without us knowing. We're 552 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:02,836 Speaker 1: just like, oh, the whole context just changed. That's amazing. 553 00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 1: You got to test it out ahead of time, is 554 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:08,156 Speaker 1: what I learned from that. So you were allowed to 555 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,196 Speaker 1: physically be in Brazil, you just weren't allowed to sing 556 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:13,436 Speaker 1: in front of an audience, you know. I was allowed 557 00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:15,876 Speaker 1: to have a press conference every morning, which I did, 558 00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:19,156 Speaker 1: but it was the singing. They didn't want me singing. 559 00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:21,196 Speaker 1: And I talked to the press about it. I said, 560 00:33:21,236 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 1: why is this going on? And they said something about, well, 561 00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:29,756 Speaker 1: Brazilians are very emotional and that if they would be 562 00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:32,716 Speaker 1: moved not by the words but by the music, that 563 00:33:32,796 --> 00:33:36,436 Speaker 1: was the only explanation everybody gave me. That this is 564 00:33:36,436 --> 00:33:39,356 Speaker 1: a country where the music is what moves people to do. 565 00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: One thing and another and that that would be not 566 00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:48,676 Speaker 1: desirable by the government. Tell me how you see protest 567 00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 1: songs functioning in society, that, what they do, what they 568 00:33:52,996 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 1: don't do that, how does it work? Do you mean? 569 00:33:55,636 --> 00:34:02,556 Speaker 1: Now ever? Ever? Oh, I suppose it is the emotional factor. 570 00:34:03,116 --> 00:34:05,396 Speaker 1: And I mean you can listen to somebody talk forever, 571 00:34:05,956 --> 00:34:13,316 Speaker 1: speeches forever, but the music literally literally crosses the barriers 572 00:34:13,436 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 1: one country to another from one. I mean, I remember 573 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 1: when I was second album came out, and there was 574 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,996 Speaker 1: a guy. They told me about it later in the 575 00:34:22,076 --> 00:34:24,476 Speaker 1: record stores. My records were all piled up like that, 576 00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 1: and this guy wanted to buy one, but he didn't 577 00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:30,036 Speaker 1: want to buy one, but he did, and apparently he 578 00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:34,076 Speaker 1: paced back and forth and then he said that bitch 579 00:34:34,116 --> 00:34:37,436 Speaker 1: Shirken sing he was a Republican, couldn't stand my politics, 580 00:34:37,476 --> 00:34:43,316 Speaker 1: and he bought the album. No, he does had Tony. 581 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. So it crossed whatever that barrier. Unbelievable for 582 00:34:51,636 --> 00:34:54,116 Speaker 1: a protest song to work. Does the song have to 583 00:34:54,156 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 1: be great regardless of the content. I don't think so. 584 00:34:58,516 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 1: I first of all, I think it's about context. I 585 00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:05,396 Speaker 1: mean I used to saying green grass of Home, which 586 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:07,796 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with politics, and I would dedicate 587 00:35:07,836 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 1: it to my husband who was in jail for draft resistance, 588 00:35:11,116 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: and so it had we just take a song that 589 00:35:14,316 --> 00:35:17,356 Speaker 1: hasn't nothing to do with politics, and you put it 590 00:35:17,396 --> 00:35:20,676 Speaker 1: in that and then you've made your point and everybody's 591 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:23,196 Speaker 1: enjoyed the song, and it's kind of a win win. 592 00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:26,036 Speaker 1: What do you think is the greatest protest song I've 593 00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 1: ever written? Or what's or should I say, what's your 594 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:33,436 Speaker 1: favorite protest song? Made better question? Oh? I think, um, well, 595 00:35:33,436 --> 00:35:35,836 Speaker 1: there's the Italian when I was talking about, but that's 596 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:39,756 Speaker 1: not known. I would think that probably blowing in the Wind, 597 00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:42,756 Speaker 1: because I've heard it in every language. I've heard boy 598 00:35:42,796 --> 00:35:46,196 Speaker 1: scouts in Germany on the beach singing blowing in the wind, 599 00:35:46,476 --> 00:35:51,356 Speaker 1: blowing as the wind, you know. And it's just partly 600 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:55,396 Speaker 1: because it's known most songs. You learn the hook and 601 00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:58,276 Speaker 1: learn a bit of the course. People all around the 602 00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 1: world know every word to blowing in the wind, So 603 00:36:01,636 --> 00:36:06,996 Speaker 1: it's a joy to sing beautiful. Can you I feel 604 00:36:07,716 --> 00:36:10,476 Speaker 1: uncomfortable asking this, but I want to know the song 605 00:36:10,516 --> 00:36:12,836 Speaker 1: that you're talking about that's not known. Is there a 606 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:16,236 Speaker 1: way you could demonstrate it without feeling like I'm asking 607 00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:19,516 Speaker 1: for anything that goes against what you're doing. It just 608 00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:23,996 Speaker 1: says it was written by Morticone. It was a film 609 00:36:24,036 --> 00:36:28,156 Speaker 1: about Saco and Vinzetti, and they came to me. I 610 00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:30,916 Speaker 1: was in my hotel room in Rome, and said will 611 00:36:30,956 --> 00:36:33,916 Speaker 1: you write the music for this movie? And I said 612 00:36:33,956 --> 00:36:37,316 Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly, but he gave me these gave me 613 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:40,916 Speaker 1: the music and they wanted three ballads written, and I did, 614 00:36:40,996 --> 00:36:43,556 Speaker 1: wrote one a day and then that was done, and 615 00:36:43,596 --> 00:36:45,516 Speaker 1: then he said, oh, this one more thing. I want 616 00:36:45,516 --> 00:36:48,556 Speaker 1: to put a tag at the end of the song. 617 00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:52,156 Speaker 1: It was just catchy, little brief melody and what I 618 00:36:52,196 --> 00:36:55,436 Speaker 1: write the words, and I just said, here's to you, 619 00:36:55,636 --> 00:37:01,316 Speaker 1: Nicola and Bart, rest forever in our hearts. The last 620 00:37:01,316 --> 00:37:05,796 Speaker 1: and final moment is yours. This agony is your triumph. 621 00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:07,676 Speaker 1: And I have to say that it was a combination 622 00:37:07,716 --> 00:37:11,556 Speaker 1: of the words and the little melody and whatever happened happened. 623 00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:16,996 Speaker 1: And if you'll find it under Nicola and Bart amazing, amazing, 624 00:37:17,036 --> 00:37:19,836 Speaker 1: And that's and that has lived. It has taken on 625 00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:25,156 Speaker 1: a life of its own forever, and every summer it 626 00:37:25,196 --> 00:37:27,876 Speaker 1: comes out again in Italy. It's a big hit. And 627 00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:31,916 Speaker 1: if I had taken the royalties for that, I wouldn't 628 00:37:31,956 --> 00:37:34,476 Speaker 1: have had to ever do anything else. But I wouldn't 629 00:37:34,676 --> 00:37:38,436 Speaker 1: because I figured Saco and Vinzetti is sacred territory. I 630 00:37:38,436 --> 00:37:42,356 Speaker 1: didn't have any right taking money for that. We're just 631 00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:45,316 Speaker 1: kind of ridiculous because the record company did. But it 632 00:37:45,356 --> 00:37:49,876 Speaker 1: was my stuffy way of I'm turning down more money. 633 00:37:50,476 --> 00:37:52,996 Speaker 1: You've been good at that over your career, I've been 634 00:37:53,036 --> 00:37:55,636 Speaker 1: really good at that. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had 635 00:37:55,676 --> 00:38:00,276 Speaker 1: a relationship with gospel music? Yeah? I have. First of 636 00:38:00,316 --> 00:38:03,956 Speaker 1: all in the South fifty nine sixty well sixty two 637 00:38:04,036 --> 00:38:07,356 Speaker 1: or sixty three, and the black churches down there and 638 00:38:07,676 --> 00:38:10,756 Speaker 1: working with King and his people and all of us. 639 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:13,276 Speaker 1: And I would end up in gospel and the churches. 640 00:38:13,316 --> 00:38:16,036 Speaker 1: And I remember that one of the churches that people 641 00:38:16,076 --> 00:38:18,236 Speaker 1: had already it was a hot day, I think it 642 00:38:18,276 --> 00:38:22,716 Speaker 1: was in Mississippi, and people were they called it getting happy, 643 00:38:22,916 --> 00:38:26,596 Speaker 1: you know, they're going stiff and being carried out by 644 00:38:26,636 --> 00:38:30,876 Speaker 1: the women in the white dresses. And I heard the 645 00:38:30,956 --> 00:38:34,436 Speaker 1: preachers saying, a good friend from the north is here 646 00:38:34,516 --> 00:38:36,716 Speaker 1: today to sing for us. I thought, oh my god, 647 00:38:36,716 --> 00:38:39,796 Speaker 1: that means me. And I went and sang break bread 648 00:38:39,836 --> 00:38:43,836 Speaker 1: together and a couple of people went got happy. I thought, 649 00:38:43,836 --> 00:38:47,356 Speaker 1: you know what, I just got my strives. Wow, and 650 00:38:47,476 --> 00:38:51,276 Speaker 1: everybody sang with me. Yeah. So that would be a 651 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:55,956 Speaker 1: genuine relationship with with gospel incredible. And then later on 652 00:38:55,996 --> 00:38:59,556 Speaker 1: I had a producer, Alan Abrahams, who produced three albums 653 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:03,556 Speaker 1: and mostly what he does is gospel beautiful. Let's talk 654 00:39:03,556 --> 00:39:08,516 Speaker 1: about when folk music and rock music joined together. What 655 00:39:09,196 --> 00:39:12,836 Speaker 1: is the feeling in the air when that was going on. Well, 656 00:39:12,876 --> 00:39:17,916 Speaker 1: I was still a snotty purist. So the famous time 657 00:39:17,956 --> 00:39:21,836 Speaker 1: of Dylan coming to Newport and going electric, I was 658 00:39:21,956 --> 00:39:25,436 Speaker 1: just like Pete Seeger, how can he do this to us, 659 00:39:25,516 --> 00:39:30,156 Speaker 1: you know, our golden boy? And so I was really behind, 660 00:39:30,556 --> 00:39:32,236 Speaker 1: you know, I was on the slow freight, as my 661 00:39:32,316 --> 00:39:37,596 Speaker 1: mother would say. And then you know, sort of watching 662 00:39:37,716 --> 00:39:41,236 Speaker 1: what Dylan meant to the Beatles and vice versa when 663 00:39:41,236 --> 00:39:45,236 Speaker 1: they came to the States. I think whatever it was 664 00:39:45,276 --> 00:39:47,956 Speaker 1: in me that had a problem sort of wore off 665 00:39:48,036 --> 00:39:51,236 Speaker 1: because the music was good. You know, did you get 666 00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:54,436 Speaker 1: to spend time with the Beatles at all? And a 667 00:39:54,556 --> 00:39:57,676 Speaker 1: funny evening with I have these stories, you know, I 668 00:39:57,716 --> 00:40:00,236 Speaker 1: guess that's what life is about. You're my age. It 669 00:40:00,276 --> 00:40:03,836 Speaker 1: is mostly stories. M Yeah. When the first time they 670 00:40:03,876 --> 00:40:05,876 Speaker 1: came to the States, I had sung in the Red 671 00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:10,076 Speaker 1: Rocks Amphitheater and they were the the next night, and 672 00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:12,836 Speaker 1: I had the next night off, so I stayed and 673 00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: I was in there. They have a labyrinth for the 674 00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:18,596 Speaker 1: press down under the stage, and I was down there 675 00:40:18,596 --> 00:40:23,556 Speaker 1: with I swear two hundred press and somebody came and said, 676 00:40:23,556 --> 00:40:26,516 Speaker 1: the Beatles would like to meet you. And I went 677 00:40:26,556 --> 00:40:29,876 Speaker 1: to their dressing room and I said, Hi, I'm Joan, 678 00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:33,356 Speaker 1: and one by what was it, Hello, I'm Ringo, Hello, 679 00:40:33,436 --> 00:40:35,436 Speaker 1: I'm John. I said, listen, you guys are in the 680 00:40:35,516 --> 00:40:39,076 Speaker 1: cover of every newspaper magazine in the world. I know 681 00:40:39,116 --> 00:40:43,316 Speaker 1: who you are. Yeah. And then I traveled with them 682 00:40:43,356 --> 00:40:46,116 Speaker 1: out to California and watched some more of their shows, 683 00:40:46,156 --> 00:40:50,276 Speaker 1: and it was It's something I'd never experienced before. I mean, 684 00:40:50,276 --> 00:40:53,356 Speaker 1: when they came out on stage at Red Rocks, it 685 00:40:53,396 --> 00:40:55,916 Speaker 1: would be like standing in back of a jet and 686 00:40:56,036 --> 00:40:59,596 Speaker 1: the sky lit up with the cameras. It was bright, 687 00:40:59,636 --> 00:41:02,076 Speaker 1: and there was just screaming. Was you didn't hear them 688 00:41:02,156 --> 00:41:04,876 Speaker 1: at all. You didn't hear them unless your head was 689 00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:08,116 Speaker 1: in one of the speakers. And a few years later, 690 00:41:08,796 --> 00:41:12,956 Speaker 1: there is that Epstein was he still with them, their manager, 691 00:41:13,276 --> 00:41:16,676 Speaker 1: whoever it was. They were playing somewhere in San Francisco, 692 00:41:16,916 --> 00:41:20,196 Speaker 1: and I was there, and there was this little second 693 00:41:20,236 --> 00:41:22,916 Speaker 1: of time when the screaming stopped. He said, this is 694 00:41:22,956 --> 00:41:26,876 Speaker 1: our last tour in the States. That was their last show, 695 00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:29,436 Speaker 1: that San Francisco is their last show. This is it, 696 00:41:29,476 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: We're not coming back. Did you have any you talked 697 00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:36,916 Speaker 1: about paying attention to the audience, always being with them, seeing, 698 00:41:37,636 --> 00:41:41,316 Speaker 1: noticing if things were going well or not. Yeah, did 699 00:41:41,356 --> 00:41:45,436 Speaker 1: you have any tricks if you felt like things were 700 00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:48,236 Speaker 1: starting to go south at a show that you could 701 00:41:48,236 --> 00:41:52,036 Speaker 1: do to get the audience back. Mostly what I did 702 00:41:52,156 --> 00:41:56,116 Speaker 1: when it really got rough was because I've had something 703 00:41:56,156 --> 00:41:59,076 Speaker 1: of a band for many, many years. We'd look at 704 00:41:59,156 --> 00:42:02,716 Speaker 1: each other, you know, and just a little wink or 705 00:42:02,756 --> 00:42:05,796 Speaker 1: a little cross eye meant we had each other. So 706 00:42:05,836 --> 00:42:08,676 Speaker 1: it didn't matter so much about trying to get somebody 707 00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:11,676 Speaker 1: if they weren't really gettable. But I mean, I would 708 00:42:11,716 --> 00:42:14,836 Speaker 1: say that was so rare that we really wanted to 709 00:42:14,916 --> 00:42:17,796 Speaker 1: chuck it in. Yeah, I feel like people would come 710 00:42:17,836 --> 00:42:20,716 Speaker 1: to see you because they loved you. That seems like 711 00:42:21,676 --> 00:42:25,036 Speaker 1: we always thought so too. Once in a while, you know, 712 00:42:25,156 --> 00:42:28,236 Speaker 1: like a like a resort town or something. They're coming 713 00:42:28,276 --> 00:42:30,276 Speaker 1: because that's the only game in town, and they've been 714 00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:33,916 Speaker 1: out on the beach getting too much sun and drinking. 715 00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:37,076 Speaker 1: So you know, there's just so much you can do 716 00:42:37,316 --> 00:42:42,636 Speaker 1: in that situation. Yeah, tell me how you started painting. Well, 717 00:42:42,636 --> 00:42:45,396 Speaker 1: all my life, I've sketched, you know. When I was 718 00:42:45,436 --> 00:42:49,836 Speaker 1: in second grade, I I sketched a Mickey Mouse and 719 00:42:49,996 --> 00:42:55,196 Speaker 1: sold it for three cents. And Bambi and then I 720 00:42:55,356 --> 00:42:58,716 Speaker 1: sketched because they had an eye for likenesses like a draw. 721 00:42:59,036 --> 00:43:02,196 Speaker 1: And then in junior high school, I started drawing Jimmy 722 00:43:02,276 --> 00:43:06,436 Speaker 1: Deane and then members of the class, and I sold 723 00:43:06,476 --> 00:43:09,676 Speaker 1: some of them, as I remember, that's very funny. And 724 00:43:09,716 --> 00:43:14,556 Speaker 1: then just undisciplined different kinds of painting. During my recovery work, 725 00:43:14,596 --> 00:43:18,996 Speaker 1: I did dreams of recovery painting, you know. But this 726 00:43:19,396 --> 00:43:24,116 Speaker 1: the portrait started, I mean, this journey into portraiture started 727 00:43:24,156 --> 00:43:28,036 Speaker 1: about nine years ago and I just all of a sudden, 728 00:43:28,076 --> 00:43:30,116 Speaker 1: it was an all of a sudden, passed the frame 729 00:43:30,156 --> 00:43:33,116 Speaker 1: shop and looked in. I thought, hmmm, I think I'll 730 00:43:33,116 --> 00:43:35,996 Speaker 1: get my hands into this one. And I started and 731 00:43:36,036 --> 00:43:40,756 Speaker 1: it never stopped that, you know, the first for the 732 00:43:40,796 --> 00:43:42,636 Speaker 1: first year and a half. I think I did mostly 733 00:43:42,716 --> 00:43:45,156 Speaker 1: collages and then I thought, you know what, I really 734 00:43:45,156 --> 00:43:48,316 Speaker 1: would like to do a portrait. I'll bet that's really difficult. 735 00:43:48,916 --> 00:43:51,716 Speaker 1: And guess what it wasn't And I didn't have to 736 00:43:51,756 --> 00:43:55,036 Speaker 1: go to school. I get tricks from different people. How 737 00:43:55,036 --> 00:43:57,756 Speaker 1: do you paint eyeglasses? So you know, somebody tells me 738 00:43:57,756 --> 00:44:01,396 Speaker 1: a little trick. That's all I needed. I'm sure there's 739 00:44:01,436 --> 00:44:03,756 Speaker 1: a lot that I could be learning, and I just 740 00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:06,756 Speaker 1: don't want to leave my own studio and go to school. 741 00:44:06,956 --> 00:44:10,956 Speaker 1: You know, how much time do you spend painting? Typically, well, 742 00:44:10,996 --> 00:44:13,796 Speaker 1: in a time like when getting ready for that last show, 743 00:44:14,356 --> 00:44:18,076 Speaker 1: and when I'm in the cycle of doing paintings, it 744 00:44:18,156 --> 00:44:20,796 Speaker 1: could be a few hours a day, a few three 745 00:44:20,836 --> 00:44:24,236 Speaker 1: or four hours a day. And like now, since the 746 00:44:24,356 --> 00:44:27,436 Speaker 1: last painting, which was Stacey Abrams, that's a few months ago, 747 00:44:27,636 --> 00:44:31,316 Speaker 1: I haven't done anything. I just started. This is the 748 00:44:31,396 --> 00:44:34,956 Speaker 1: first day I've been back in the studio and I 749 00:44:34,996 --> 00:44:37,916 Speaker 1: started painting. There was a photograph of one of the 750 00:44:37,996 --> 00:44:44,316 Speaker 1: policemen who was being beaten. It's an extraordinary It's a 751 00:44:44,316 --> 00:44:49,716 Speaker 1: profile of him and this panicky look and you can't 752 00:44:49,756 --> 00:44:53,076 Speaker 1: see any of the details, just this face and I thought, well, 753 00:44:53,116 --> 00:44:57,556 Speaker 1: you know, there's probably an entire exhibit from the insurrection. 754 00:44:58,436 --> 00:45:03,476 Speaker 1: I would love to see those. Any relationship between interpretive 755 00:45:03,916 --> 00:45:09,916 Speaker 1: singing and interpreting in paint, Oh my, I guess I 756 00:45:09,956 --> 00:45:14,236 Speaker 1: don't know if there's a relationship. There are similarities, you know, 757 00:45:14,396 --> 00:45:17,476 Speaker 1: they just sort of refusal to get any formal education 758 00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:20,796 Speaker 1: about it that it just has to come. I know 759 00:45:21,036 --> 00:45:23,996 Speaker 1: that it's as you know, it's a mystery to me 760 00:45:24,116 --> 00:45:27,116 Speaker 1: where the voice came from and how it worked. And 761 00:45:27,156 --> 00:45:30,916 Speaker 1: it's equally it's a mystery to me how these paintings 762 00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:35,036 Speaker 1: are showing up. And then we talked a little bit 763 00:45:35,036 --> 00:45:37,756 Speaker 1: on the show the other night about upside down drawings. 764 00:45:38,516 --> 00:45:43,316 Speaker 1: They're just fascinating to me. I literally draw the thing 765 00:45:43,436 --> 00:45:46,636 Speaker 1: upside down, and sometimes I know what I'm going to draw. 766 00:45:46,756 --> 00:45:49,676 Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't. I just start in and then I 767 00:45:49,756 --> 00:45:51,796 Speaker 1: turn it background, and I see what it looks like, 768 00:45:52,116 --> 00:45:54,796 Speaker 1: and I see what it's saying to me, and usually 769 00:45:54,796 --> 00:45:57,756 Speaker 1: a pun or something silly. Turn it background and I 770 00:45:57,796 --> 00:46:01,196 Speaker 1: write what I you know, what came to my mind 771 00:46:01,636 --> 00:46:04,356 Speaker 1: and all of that's insane, and I know that the 772 00:46:04,516 --> 00:46:07,076 Speaker 1: something happens in the brain that allows that to happen. 773 00:46:07,316 --> 00:46:10,196 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. I don't really care. 774 00:46:10,516 --> 00:46:14,956 Speaker 1: It's beautiful. I imagine. It's not so different than the 775 00:46:14,996 --> 00:46:18,636 Speaker 1: way many people I know write songs, which is almost 776 00:46:18,676 --> 00:46:22,436 Speaker 1: like a form of automatic writing. You know. It's it's 777 00:46:22,476 --> 00:46:25,636 Speaker 1: not sitting down to write a particular thing. It's more 778 00:46:25,876 --> 00:46:31,956 Speaker 1: almost through improvisation, words appear and then looking at what 779 00:46:31,996 --> 00:46:35,276 Speaker 1: those words are, trying to say that the song reveals itself. 780 00:46:36,076 --> 00:46:39,436 Speaker 1: That sounds like a good possibility. I haven't written anything 781 00:46:39,876 --> 00:46:44,956 Speaker 1: for thirty years except that snarky song about Trump that 782 00:46:45,076 --> 00:46:48,116 Speaker 1: I just quit. So my granddaughter writes. And she was 783 00:46:48,156 --> 00:46:51,356 Speaker 1: sitting at the piano and she was singing this song 784 00:46:51,636 --> 00:46:53,236 Speaker 1: and then it got quiet. I looked at her, she 785 00:46:53,356 --> 00:46:56,876 Speaker 1: staring up at the ceiling, and when she stopped, I said, 786 00:46:56,876 --> 00:46:58,876 Speaker 1: were you just writing? And she said, yeah, the word 787 00:46:58,956 --> 00:47:02,996 Speaker 1: I was singing the words. Thank you so much for 788 00:47:03,196 --> 00:47:05,476 Speaker 1: talking and it's great seeing you again. And I'm glad 789 00:47:05,476 --> 00:47:12,356 Speaker 1: you're so well. You look great. Thanks Rick, cheers. Thanks 790 00:47:12,356 --> 00:47:15,676 Speaker 1: to Joan Baiez for sharing so many fascinating stories from 791 00:47:15,676 --> 00:47:17,836 Speaker 1: her life. You can hear all of our favorite Joan 792 00:47:17,916 --> 00:47:20,796 Speaker 1: Baias songs on my playlist at Broken record podcast dot 793 00:47:20,876 --> 00:47:23,556 Speaker 1: com and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel 794 00:47:23,756 --> 00:47:27,156 Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you 795 00:47:27,196 --> 00:47:30,356 Speaker 1: can find extended cuts of new and old episodes, and 796 00:47:30,516 --> 00:47:33,596 Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 797 00:47:33,676 --> 00:47:37,676 Speaker 1: Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, 798 00:47:37,836 --> 00:47:42,156 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafey. 799 00:47:42,276 --> 00:47:45,316 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Nei La Belle. Broken Record is 800 00:47:45,316 --> 00:47:47,876 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and it's like a show. 801 00:47:48,036 --> 00:47:51,116 Speaker 1: Please remember to share, rate, review us on your podcast at. 802 00:47:51,436 --> 00:47:54,516 Speaker 1: Our theme music by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond, bas