1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:19,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I want you to think back to your school 2 00:00:20,076 --> 00:00:22,796 Speaker 1: days for a second. What was the worst grade you 3 00:00:22,876 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 1: ever got? How did it make you feel? And now 4 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: think about the best grade. How is that grades? Even 5 00:00:34,036 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: decades after graduation, we can still remember what those marks 6 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:40,956 Speaker 1: felt like. And it makes sense that grades affect us 7 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:45,196 Speaker 1: so deeply because they're important. I mean, they're kind of 8 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:51,476 Speaker 1: synonymous with education, aren't they. Well, it turns out not really. 9 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:56,276 Speaker 1: In fact, grades are a relatively new invention. For almost 10 00:00:56,276 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: seven centuries, schools got by without them. As a professor myself, 11 00:01:01,516 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 1: I find that incomprehensible. I mean, generation after generation of 12 00:01:05,916 --> 00:01:09,516 Speaker 1: scholars completed their studies without anything akin to a grade 13 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 1: point average. How could my predecessors tell students apart? How 14 00:01:13,316 --> 00:01:15,956 Speaker 1: did they sort pupils who worked really, really hard from 15 00:01:15,956 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 1: those who just phoned it in? Back in seventeen eighty five, 16 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: all that changed, so we had the stuff that Karen 17 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 1: found for us today. I recently went on a pilgrimage 18 00:01:27,156 --> 00:01:29,316 Speaker 1: to a special spot at Yale where I teach, the 19 00:01:29,436 --> 00:01:33,036 Speaker 1: Binnick Library, in order to see an important document, one 20 00:01:33,076 --> 00:01:36,236 Speaker 1: that's kept alongside a copy of the Declaration of Independence 21 00:01:36,516 --> 00:01:39,396 Speaker 1: and one of the oldest pieces of literature in the world. 22 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:41,836 Speaker 1: I wash my hands, but I can just open it. 23 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:43,996 Speaker 1: It's like not going to break it. I was able 24 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 1: to hold the Diary of Ezra Styles, seventh President of 25 00:01:47,956 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 1: Yale University. So cool. So the important part is right here. 26 00:01:53,916 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 1: On April fifth, seventeen eighty five, he recorded the details 27 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 1: of an exam he'd conducted that spring Tuesday with fifty 28 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: eight of his students. My colleague Mike Morand pointed me 29 00:02:04,396 --> 00:02:07,796 Speaker 1: to a short but revolutionary footnote twenty opt to me 30 00:02:08,796 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: second Optimy twelve inferiories Bonnie ten and the unlikely event 31 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:20,116 Speaker 1: that you're someone who doesn't speak Latin, let me translate 32 00:02:20,156 --> 00:02:23,476 Speaker 1: for you. Styles was splitting his students up into four 33 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:28,636 Speaker 1: different grades from Optimy best to pajoras worse. With this 34 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: tiny footnote, just a few lines. It's argued that Styles 35 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:36,236 Speaker 1: invented the four point o grading system we still use today. 36 00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:38,796 Speaker 1: I mean, this is amazing. It's like a single line, 37 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 1: his handwritten text and the biggest thing in education that 38 00:02:42,436 --> 00:02:45,156 Speaker 1: shaped our history. It's right there in my hand. I 39 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 1: got to hold the first ever grades. Nowadays, we don't 40 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 1: just have GPAs, we have SATs and gres in advanced 41 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: placement tests and everything in between. It's estimated that the 42 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 1: average American child takes more than one hundred standardized tests. 43 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: But we don't just grade in education. We think ratings 44 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: are a good incentive for all our behavior years, and 45 00:03:09,996 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 1: that means we're constantly being evaluated, from the number of 46 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: stars and our uber driver rating, to our positivity percentages 47 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: on eBay to a performance review on the job. We 48 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:23,236 Speaker 1: seem to love being measured, and when we get good grades, 49 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 1: it feels great. All those a pluses, the gold stars, 50 00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:30,396 Speaker 1: those little smartphone vibrations when we hit our goal. They 51 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:34,596 Speaker 1: encourage us to become better, more virtuous people. Or do 52 00:03:34,636 --> 00:03:37,876 Speaker 1: they are chasing? These incentives really as good for our 53 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: happiness as we think. Our minds are constantly telling us 54 00:03:47,996 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 1: what to do to be happy. But what if our 55 00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 1: minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, 56 00:03:52,956 --> 00:03:55,396 Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy. 57 00:03:56,516 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the 58 00:03:58,956 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction. 59 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. 60 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:13,356 Speaker 1: The first time I eboxed it, I felt kind of 61 00:04:13,396 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 1: like a dweeb. This is Emma Lord, she writes for 62 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:19,996 Speaker 1: Bustle dot com. Back in twenty fourteen, she broke her foot. 63 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 1: I couldn't run for a little while while I was 64 00:04:22,436 --> 00:04:24,436 Speaker 1: waiting for a fracture to heal. And that's kind of 65 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:27,436 Speaker 1: how the whole thing started was I was pretty much 66 00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:29,516 Speaker 1: told not to run for like six weeks, and to me, 67 00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:32,196 Speaker 1: that kind of seemed like a nightmare. Emma was worried 68 00:04:32,236 --> 00:04:33,996 Speaker 1: she wouldn't be able to stay in shape while she 69 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: was injured, so her mom bought her a new step 70 00:04:36,316 --> 00:04:39,036 Speaker 1: tracking device, a Fitbit, hoping it would make her feel 71 00:04:39,036 --> 00:04:42,076 Speaker 1: better and keep moving while she healed. But I, you know, 72 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: the first day I used it, it did that thing 73 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:46,836 Speaker 1: where it buzzed when I got to ten thousand steps, 74 00:04:46,836 --> 00:04:48,876 Speaker 1: and I was like, ooh, like this is such a 75 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: nice feeling. I just got instant validation from it, and 76 00:04:53,436 --> 00:04:56,476 Speaker 1: then I was just kind of hooked. Emma quickly experienced 77 00:04:56,476 --> 00:04:59,636 Speaker 1: what science shows happens when we start grading our performance 78 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:03,036 Speaker 1: with incentives like a fitbit buzz we humans are like 79 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:06,476 Speaker 1: little lab rats when it comes to external rewards. Those 80 00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:09,716 Speaker 1: buzzes and good grades and gold stars work really well. 81 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 1: They change our behavior quickly, but often more quickly than 82 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:17,556 Speaker 1: we expect. I guess after that first day, the baseline 83 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 1: goal was to always hit the ten thousand steps, and 84 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:22,556 Speaker 1: then you know, it started getting to the threshold where 85 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if I can do ten thousand, I 86 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:28,036 Speaker 1: could do fifteen. And that was when Emma started seeing 87 00:05:28,036 --> 00:05:31,436 Speaker 1: the problem. External rewards like the buzz of a fitbit 88 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:35,396 Speaker 1: are so powerful that they often work a little too well. 89 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:41,076 Speaker 1: I think the first moment I felt myself becoming a 90 00:05:41,116 --> 00:05:43,396 Speaker 1: little bit addicted to it was and I realized I 91 00:05:43,476 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: was suddenly getting on the metro two hours before work 92 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:48,356 Speaker 1: just so I could get in the ten thousand steps 93 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: before work, because I just wanted that validation, like really 94 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:53,716 Speaker 1: early in the day. So it was going to be 95 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:55,756 Speaker 1: like off my conscience, which is like such a weird 96 00:05:55,876 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 1: thing to think about, because like nobody was gonna the 97 00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 1: police weren't going to come for me if I didn't 98 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 1: hit ten thousand steps that day. But I just felt 99 00:06:03,036 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 1: better after it had buzzed. The scary thing was at 100 00:06:06,036 --> 00:06:09,676 Speaker 1: the fitbit wasn't just affecting Emma's happiness. It also started 101 00:06:09,676 --> 00:06:13,396 Speaker 1: affecting Emma's relationships. When I got a new job once 102 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:16,836 Speaker 1: and there was a fitbit like leaderboard to see who 103 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:19,116 Speaker 1: had the best steps, and some guy in the office 104 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 1: had like thirty thousand, and I went out that weekend 105 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 1: and crushed it. And I came in the next day 106 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 1: and I was like, I got thirty five thousand, and 107 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: like nobody was pleased with me, and I was like, 108 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:32,676 Speaker 1: not the way to make friends. The level of competition 109 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 1: emma experience with her fitbit was reminiscent of another time 110 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 1: in her life when she felt super competitive back in school. 111 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: I came from one of the most competitive school districts 112 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:43,636 Speaker 1: in the country, so it was like one of those 113 00:06:43,636 --> 00:06:45,916 Speaker 1: things where everybody was like the hungry he was in there. 114 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:49,316 Speaker 1: So I definitely do think that this is related to 115 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 1: that in some ways. I definitely was one of those 116 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: kids who was very, very manic about my grades. In 117 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Emma shared her experiences in an article on 118 00:06:58,836 --> 00:07:02,836 Speaker 1: Bustle entitled nineteen very real emotional struggles of having a 119 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: Fitbit or does your Fitbit have you? I thought it 120 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:09,836 Speaker 1: would be relatable to other people who are kind of 121 00:07:09,876 --> 00:07:11,956 Speaker 1: going through the motions on that too, and weirdly I 122 00:07:11,996 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: got more response from that article than maybe anything I've 123 00:07:15,076 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 1: written on this entire site, because you know, it is 124 00:07:17,796 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: such a relatable kind of mania, especially because you know, 125 00:07:22,156 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 1: I think people are so confused about where that compulsion 126 00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: is coming from that it's almost a relief to be like, oh, 127 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 1: I'm not the only crazy one. But despite her own 128 00:07:31,636 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: experiences with fitbit and the response to her piece years later, 129 00:07:36,436 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 1: Emma's still tracking. You know, even after the foot injury healed. 130 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:43,716 Speaker 1: I found myself still counting, even when I was running, 131 00:07:44,036 --> 00:07:45,756 Speaker 1: and that was like something I'd never really felt the 132 00:07:45,836 --> 00:07:48,836 Speaker 1: need to count before, just to have that number there 133 00:07:48,876 --> 00:07:50,876 Speaker 1: and to like know exactly how many steps I had 134 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 1: in a day. I mean, it's been four years and 135 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:59,596 Speaker 1: I'm still doing it. Emma's experience shows that seemingly innocuous 136 00:07:59,676 --> 00:08:03,476 Speaker 1: benchmarks can quickly change our behavior for the worse. But 137 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 1: they're more insidious than we realize. Every external reward has 138 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: the power to turn love into hate and virtue into vice. 139 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:16,116 Speaker 1: They can even relentlessly play on our most primal fears. 140 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:30,556 Speaker 1: The happiness lab will be right back. Where do you 141 00:08:30,596 --> 00:08:33,836 Speaker 1: stand on Obamacare? It's one of the most bitterly divisive 142 00:08:33,876 --> 00:08:36,916 Speaker 1: issues in US politics today. I bet you have a 143 00:08:36,956 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: pretty strong opinion about it. So what do you think 144 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:43,036 Speaker 1: it would take to shift that opinion significantly? Would you 145 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:45,596 Speaker 1: believe me if I said I could manipulate your view 146 00:08:45,916 --> 00:08:49,956 Speaker 1: with some arbitrary incentive, like giving you a fake grade. 147 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 1: Let me explain. Back in nineteen sixty one, Robert Bostrom 148 00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: and his colleagues surveyed more than two hundred students on 149 00:08:57,236 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: a couple hot button issues. They asked whether America should 150 00:09:00,796 --> 00:09:04,196 Speaker 1: legalize gambling and if the nation should adopt socialized medicine. 151 00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 1: A few weeks later, all the participants were assigned to 152 00:09:07,636 --> 00:09:10,956 Speaker 1: write essays about these issues. But, and this is crucial, 153 00:09:11,356 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 1: they were asked to defend the very view they had 154 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:17,356 Speaker 1: staunchly opposed. People who viewed gambling as an evil had 155 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 1: to write in support of casino owners. Those who saw 156 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 1: socialized medicine as creeping communism were told to act as 157 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:28,436 Speaker 1: its cheerleaders. The scientists collected the essays, but didn't even 158 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 1: bother reading them. Bosterm and colleagues knew that the simple 159 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: act of writing about the opposite view was likely to 160 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,276 Speaker 1: soften everyone's opinions, changing their minds slightly. But what effect 161 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:41,756 Speaker 1: would smacking an arbitrary grade on those essays have? The 162 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 1: next day, the researchers handed them back randomly, giving a 163 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 1: third of them an A, a third of them a D, 164 00:09:47,716 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 1: and a third no grade at all. After seeing their marks, 165 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 1: students took the original survey again. So what happened. Students 166 00:09:55,916 --> 00:09:58,316 Speaker 1: who got no grade or a bad grade A D 167 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: changed their minds a bit, But something much more incredible 168 00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 1: happened to the group that got inn A. Remember, the 169 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:08,316 Speaker 1: grades were given totally randomly. The A graded essays weren't 170 00:10:08,316 --> 00:10:12,516 Speaker 1: better or more thoroughly researched than the others. Nevertheless, students 171 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: who got that fake A shifted their views more significantly 172 00:10:15,876 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: than those who got a bad grade. The simple act 173 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:22,356 Speaker 1: of getting that A cause students to change their core beliefs, 174 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:26,076 Speaker 1: isn't that chilling views we hold? Deer can be swayed 175 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: by the simple act of evaluation, even if that evaluation 176 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:34,916 Speaker 1: is totally bogus. Let's play a little game. It's called 177 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,636 Speaker 1: Unscrambled the Letters. I'm going to give you a series 178 00:10:37,676 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: of letters, and you need to turn them into an 179 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 1: English word. Here's an easy one, just three letters, ready, 180 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 1: k O A. Time's up? Did you get it? The 181 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: answer is oak. Here's a harder one, five letters, ready 182 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: c L P A E, Time's up the answer place. 183 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 1: And now an even harder one. It's got nine letters 184 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:17,676 Speaker 1: ready O n V O t U I l E. 185 00:11:19,996 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: Time's up the answer evolution. Think about how much you 186 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: enjoyed playing this game. Unless you're a huge puzzle fiend, 187 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 1: the last one with nine letters might have been a 188 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 1: bit taxing. The first one with three letters probably wasn't 189 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 1: that great either. It was a little too easy to 190 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:38,716 Speaker 1: be fun. I bet the one in the middle was 191 00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: just right. When playing a game like this, we prefer 192 00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:45,116 Speaker 1: puzzles that are hard but doable. Those are the ones 193 00:11:45,156 --> 00:11:47,996 Speaker 1: we tend to enjoy the most. The same holds for 194 00:11:48,036 --> 00:11:51,956 Speaker 1: little kids. Back in the seventies, child psychologists Susan Harder 195 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 1: tested sixth graders on Anna Gramps just like this. She 196 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:58,596 Speaker 1: gave them super easy ones with just three letters, and 197 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 1: ones with six letters that were pretty tough for children 198 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 1: their age. What did she find? Overall, the kids were 199 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: happiest when pushing the boundaries of their abilities. They even 200 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:11,876 Speaker 1: smiled almost twice as much when doing the harder puzzles. 201 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:15,956 Speaker 1: But what happens when you throw grades into the mix 202 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:18,876 Speaker 1: To test that Harder told a different group of sixth 203 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:21,556 Speaker 1: graders that the puzzles were part of a school exercise 204 00:12:21,796 --> 00:12:25,516 Speaker 1: and that they would be graded on their performance. The result, 205 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:30,956 Speaker 1: it's actually heartbreaking. Here's how Harder described it. Children working 206 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 1: for grades chose significantly easier anagrams to perform. Not only 207 00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: did subjects respond below their optimal level, but they manifested 208 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:46,116 Speaker 1: less pleasure and verbalized more anxiety. When working for grades. 209 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:50,596 Speaker 1: The kids did worse, felt worse, and aimed lower. Grades 210 00:12:50,636 --> 00:12:54,076 Speaker 1: can take experiences that our minds normally find really enjoyable 211 00:12:54,396 --> 00:12:57,876 Speaker 1: and turn them into a source of dread. My earliest 212 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:00,516 Speaker 1: memory of this was actually when I was in seventh grade. 213 00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:04,236 Speaker 1: This is Tracy George. She spent her whole career advising 214 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 1: students suffering from severe academic stress. She's seen firsthand how 215 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 1: grad can become a dangerous obsession, how they robbed students 216 00:13:12,276 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: of joy and even worse. I was going to a 217 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: private middle school outside of Cleveland, Ohio, where I'm from, 218 00:13:18,516 --> 00:13:21,956 Speaker 1: and one day a girl I know was crying at 219 00:13:21,956 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 1: her locker. Right It was in the middle of class. 220 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 1: She kind of snuck out. I'd left to go to 221 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 1: the bathroom and she was there alone crying, and I 222 00:13:28,556 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: asked her what was going on, and she said she 223 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 1: had gotten her first to be and she was so 224 00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:34,796 Speaker 1: worried she would not be able to get into the 225 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 1: school she wanted to go to, and she had already 226 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:39,316 Speaker 1: picked whatever IVY league she wanted to go to at 227 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:42,476 Speaker 1: that time, at eleven or twelve. And it was really 228 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:45,036 Speaker 1: hard to see that that she was so distraught and 229 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 1: so worried about and really terrified. I mean she was 230 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:50,676 Speaker 1: crying and almost like shaking about what this would mean 231 00:13:50,716 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 1: for her future. And it was the first time I 232 00:13:52,796 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 1: realized I really wanted to help people and students, growing 233 00:13:56,556 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: adults learn what is important to them today. Tracy is 234 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:03,076 Speaker 1: the founding director of the Good Life Center at Yale University. 235 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: Tracy and I teamed up to develop this new resource 236 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:09,716 Speaker 1: on campus in order to improve student well being. Note 237 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 1: the irony here. The very college where GPAs were invented 238 00:14:13,596 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: now employs Tracy as well as a host of other 239 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:18,996 Speaker 1: staff members to deal with the fallout of that two 240 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: hundred year old system At Yale. There's a long, long 241 00:14:21,836 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 1: wait list to see a mental health counselor here, and 242 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:26,556 Speaker 1: that's really one of the purposes of the Good Life 243 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: Centers to create a space for this overflow of where 244 00:14:29,996 --> 00:14:31,876 Speaker 1: does students go when they need to learn how to 245 00:14:31,916 --> 00:14:35,676 Speaker 1: manage this daily fear or the daily stress, the daily anxiety. 246 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:38,276 Speaker 1: And this isn't just an Ivy League problem or a 247 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:40,356 Speaker 1: Yale problem. This is the thing that colleges are seeing 248 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 1: nationwide right right, absolutely, this is an American thing. This 249 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:47,876 Speaker 1: is our country and how we are approaching education, and 250 00:14:47,956 --> 00:14:51,596 Speaker 1: it's really detrimental and is breaking students down. It's one 251 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 1: thing to feel a little stressed about getting your first 252 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,156 Speaker 1: b or to get a bit neurotic about missing your 253 00:14:56,156 --> 00:14:59,916 Speaker 1: fitbit buzz, but that's not what we're talking about. College 254 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:02,716 Speaker 1: mental health centers aren't just dealing with a few obsessive, 255 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 1: stressed out students. We are facing a real epidemic. In 256 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: a national survey, more than four percent of college students 257 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:13,876 Speaker 1: reported they're too depressed to function. More than half of 258 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:17,276 Speaker 1: current students say they feel hopeless a lot of the time, 259 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:21,916 Speaker 1: more than sixty percent said they experienced overwhelming anxiety, and 260 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 1: more than one in ten say they've seriously considered suicide 261 00:15:25,556 --> 00:15:28,276 Speaker 1: in the last year. And these are not numbers that 262 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 1: we should be seeing in this young population. This is 263 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 1: when their brains are continuing to form, They're starting to 264 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:34,276 Speaker 1: figure out who they are, what they want to do 265 00:15:34,356 --> 00:15:38,116 Speaker 1: in the world. This isn't just a surface level amount 266 00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:41,676 Speaker 1: of stress or worry. It's really this fear based reaction, 267 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 1: just like I had experienced in seventh grade, This fear 268 00:15:45,076 --> 00:15:47,756 Speaker 1: about what it will mean for your future really far 269 00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 1: down the line. What's most disturbing about all this fear 270 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:55,116 Speaker 1: and stress isn't how it's making students feel. It's affecting 271 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 1: students physical health, the basic way their bodies function. And 272 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:03,036 Speaker 1: so this constant, low level stress has a trickle down 273 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: effect of physical effects like our higher blood pressure, higher 274 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:11,996 Speaker 1: heart rate, quicker breathing, which is the activation of our 275 00:16:12,036 --> 00:16:15,556 Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system that was designed to help us fight 276 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:18,036 Speaker 1: off an animal or flight run away from an animal 277 00:16:18,276 --> 00:16:21,036 Speaker 1: in a very direct way with our evolution, like a 278 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:23,196 Speaker 1: tiger is attacking us basics right right, there is a 279 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:25,396 Speaker 1: tiger in the bush, and we need to respond. So 280 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: our muscles tense as if we're actually getting ready to 281 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: hit something or runaway. Our heart rate goes up, our 282 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 1: blood pressure goes up in order to get the blood 283 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 1: to our muscles to activate those muscles, and a lot 284 00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 1: of functions decrease that we don't need for immediate survival, 285 00:16:39,156 --> 00:16:41,716 Speaker 1: like we don't need digestion, we don't need reproduction, we 286 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 1: don't need a lot of major systems to survive in 287 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:46,476 Speaker 1: the moment. And there's a ton of research that shows 288 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 1: regular fight or flight response causes chronic stress in the 289 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:51,956 Speaker 1: body and has a trickle down effect of health impacts. 290 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 1: The problem is we see this system activated, and students 291 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:59,116 Speaker 1: see these little lines and tigers and bears behind every 292 00:16:59,116 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 1: bush in their daily modern lives. So it's not a line, 293 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 1: a tiger, or a bear, it's an exam or a 294 00:17:05,596 --> 00:17:08,996 Speaker 1: transcript or an application that's actually causing the same reaction. 295 00:17:09,476 --> 00:17:11,436 Speaker 1: So when you talk to students and you ask about 296 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 1: their stress responses, especially chronic stress responses, they often talk 297 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 1: about headaches, muscle tension, digestive issues, even reproductive or sexual issues, 298 00:17:21,396 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 1: and they don't realize until they're getting this process, this 299 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: biological process explaining that it's actually chronic stress causing this 300 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 1: trickle down effect of physical issues. It's really problematic, especially 301 00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:35,916 Speaker 1: because I see the most that students are wrapping up 302 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:38,556 Speaker 1: their sense of value and purpose as a human in 303 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 1: their grades. They're not just being graded in their classrooms. 304 00:17:41,596 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 1: They're being graded with everything you know, from their Instagram 305 00:17:45,356 --> 00:17:48,516 Speaker 1: likes to their what their fitbit is telling them. Absolutely, 306 00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:50,796 Speaker 1: I've heard some students just in the hallways going like, 307 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: why didn't this picture get enough likes? Or why did 308 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:56,556 Speaker 1: this like I stopped getting likes after so many days 309 00:17:56,676 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, any app that is designed to 310 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 1: support us in a certain activity, like a running app, 311 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 1: and even meditation apps, right, so even that's become even 312 00:18:07,436 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: meditation apps are competitive now. Yeah, it's totally crazy. Actually 313 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:12,796 Speaker 1: haven't opened a meditation app in a while because of this. 314 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: I mean, even students who come back to my class, 315 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 1: the mindfulness class that I teach here at Yale, are 316 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:22,636 Speaker 1: talking about themselves as being quote unquote bad meditators. Tracy 317 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: and I have had lots of conversations about what we 318 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 1: can do to fix things, but we both worry it's 319 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 1: going to take more than a wellness center. It's going 320 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:33,796 Speaker 1: to take major structural changes to how we and our 321 00:18:33,836 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: institutions think about external rewards. The culture the system has 322 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:41,596 Speaker 1: to change as well, especially for the school that invented 323 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:44,636 Speaker 1: this four point grading scale. We invented this process. We 324 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:46,516 Speaker 1: are in a great position to try to untangle that 325 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:49,196 Speaker 1: a little bit and to give a new generation of 326 00:18:49,196 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 1: students of fighting chance at being functional and happy and successful. 327 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:57,316 Speaker 1: But that kind of change is really hard. We might 328 00:18:57,396 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: even need to abandon the ways we've educated students since 329 00:19:00,756 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 1: the time of Ezra Styles. All right, let's get started. 330 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:09,676 Speaker 1: Welcome everybody to Psychology and the Good Life today. What 331 00:19:09,716 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 1: we're going to go through is just a quick introduction 332 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: to the course. If you've been listening to the Happiness 333 00:19:15,316 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 1: Lab for a while, you know I teach a class 334 00:19:17,356 --> 00:19:20,116 Speaker 1: at Yale called Psychology and the Good Life, an entire 335 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: class devoted to teaching students how to be happier. Over 336 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 1: a thousand students enrolled the first time I taught it. 337 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 1: This gets back to the reason why I want to 338 00:19:28,276 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 1: teach this class, which is that I actually want to 339 00:19:31,196 --> 00:19:33,516 Speaker 1: help you. I also want you to find ways to 340 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,956 Speaker 1: overcome the stress, because it's not healthy. But even an 341 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 1: Ivy League class devoted to making students happier had to 342 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:42,996 Speaker 1: include the one thing that I knew would make my 343 00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:46,116 Speaker 1: students the most miserable. These are the things, by the way, 344 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 1: that you are graded on. If we're going to talk 345 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: about our grades are stupid and you shouldn't worry about them, 346 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 1: but I have to give you one because y'all, college 347 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:53,396 Speaker 1: you one let me teach this scourse if I didn't, 348 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 1: and I wish I didn't have to grade you, but 349 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:59,196 Speaker 1: I do. That's right. Despite everything I just told you, 350 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 1: I still had to grade my students, and while showing 351 00:20:02,556 --> 00:20:05,476 Speaker 1: them the research that grades don't work the way we think, 352 00:20:05,796 --> 00:20:07,516 Speaker 1: but I still tried to give them a way out. 353 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:09,476 Speaker 1: Like ya, college one let me teaches clad. It was like, 354 00:20:09,556 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: what are they greeted on? Like methic because they don't 355 00:20:11,316 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 1: get any grades like and they're like, no, you haven't. 356 00:20:13,636 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 1: They get on something. But you have a mechanism to 357 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:18,796 Speaker 1: thwart this because you can't say, aha, provisitudos has to 358 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,676 Speaker 1: de gree me on something. I'm going to take the 359 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 1: class Credit D. Credit D is the Yale version of 360 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: pass fail. You get a grade, but there are no 361 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:29,396 Speaker 1: A minuses and B plus, just credit or no credit. 362 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,836 Speaker 1: But I still couldn't force students to give up their grades. 363 00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: They had to elect to take my class Credit D 364 00:20:36,076 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: of their own accord. I did a lot to try 365 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:41,916 Speaker 1: to convince them, why do I care? Because everything we're 366 00:20:41,956 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: going to learn the course suggests that grades are really dune. 367 00:20:44,276 --> 00:20:47,116 Speaker 1: You learn less, you're more anxious, and you're less happy 368 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 1: because everything this course is supposed to play against what 369 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: I have to provide you a degree. So just in 370 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 1: the class credit D. Like, seriously, I know how many 371 00:20:55,836 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: students actually took the class credit D. I don't know 372 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:02,996 Speaker 1: because professors at Yale aren't allowed to know. It's still 373 00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 1: considered a stigma for a student to choose to take 374 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:07,996 Speaker 1: a class without a letter grade, so they get to 375 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:13,676 Speaker 1: keep it a secret. Two hundred years after Yale, President 376 00:21:13,676 --> 00:21:17,316 Speaker 1: Ezra Styles created grades. This is how deep his beliefs go. 377 00:21:17,796 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: They're so entrenched, they're like a religion. I was starting 378 00:21:21,396 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: to lose faith in this system. But to find a 379 00:21:23,756 --> 00:21:26,156 Speaker 1: path forward, I had to talk to one of the 380 00:21:26,236 --> 00:21:29,476 Speaker 1: few true heretics who are willing to raise their voices 381 00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: and fight. But if you're asking, should we just get 382 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: rid of grades? Yes, I mean grades poison everything they touch. 383 00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. Writer 384 00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: Alfi Khan has been America's fiercest critic of our grading 385 00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 1: obsession for decades. This could be revolutionary. You have to 386 00:21:55,036 --> 00:21:57,716 Speaker 1: change the way you think about parenting because how many 387 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 1: of you out there have offered bribes to get your 388 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:04,356 Speaker 1: kids to stop crying. His stark warnings about the dangers 389 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 1: of external rewards got him invited on Oprah twice in 390 00:22:07,436 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: one year back in the nineties. You think kids are 391 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 1: being punished by the rewards in the long run, right, 392 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:17,916 Speaker 1: But in the short run it works. Alvie's classic book, 393 00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: Punished by Rewards was just reprinted to markets twenty fifth anniversary, 394 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 1: twenty five years longer than my college students have been alive. 395 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:30,116 Speaker 1: Alfie's been railing against the creed of ezra styles for 396 00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:33,836 Speaker 1: more than a quarter of a century. Grades are problematic 397 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:39,556 Speaker 1: because of a larger phenomenon of using extrinsic inducements doggy biscuits, 398 00:22:39,676 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: carrots and sticks. Choose your metaphor to try to make 399 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:53,676 Speaker 1: students perform, rather than authentically engaging students in dealing with questions, problems, 400 00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:58,276 Speaker 1: and projects that they find interesting and worth their curiosity. 401 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: And the three effects of graves overall are one. They 402 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 1: undermine student's interest in learning. To the best of my knowledge, 403 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:10,916 Speaker 1: every study that has ever paired students with and without 404 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:14,996 Speaker 1: grades in terms of their excitement about the learning has 405 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:18,716 Speaker 1: found a negative effect from grades. The second effect is 406 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: that grades lead students to try to avoid challenging tasks. 407 00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:28,276 Speaker 1: If they have an opportunity to do that, they will 408 00:23:28,316 --> 00:23:32,156 Speaker 1: then pick the shortest book or the most familiar topic 409 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 1: for their project. That's not because they're lazy, it's not 410 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 1: because they're snow flakes. It's because this system has led 411 00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: them to respond rationally to an irrational demand. I mean, 412 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:47,316 Speaker 1: if the point is to get an A, of course, 413 00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 1: you're more likely to do that if you're doing something easier. 414 00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:52,476 Speaker 1: And then we turn around and blame the students for 415 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: not being motivated or when the grading system has elicited 416 00:23:57,116 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 1: a very predictable response. And the third effect of grades 417 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 1: is that it leads students to think in a shallower 418 00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 1: or more superficial way. They're less likely to really press 419 00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 1: to say, how do we know that's true? Or isn't 420 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:14,556 Speaker 1: that contradictory to what we did last week? They're more 421 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 1: likely to say, do we have to know this? Is 422 00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:18,836 Speaker 1: this going to be on the test? And again, the 423 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 1: problem is not with the students, it's with the fact 424 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:24,996 Speaker 1: of giving grades. Research finds that when you get rid 425 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:30,876 Speaker 1: of things like grades and indeed all rewards, kids spontaneously 426 00:24:30,996 --> 00:24:35,396 Speaker 1: pick harder things to do. So you can't improve the 427 00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:40,236 Speaker 1: system by merely tweaking the way grades are done. You've 428 00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:42,316 Speaker 1: got to get rid of it, which a number of 429 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:45,356 Speaker 1: schools have done, including some colleges and high schools, and 430 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 1: even more middle schools and elementary schools. When I first 431 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 1: met Alfie at his home in Massachusetts, I took him 432 00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:54,716 Speaker 1: at present a photocopy of the Ezra style's diary entry 433 00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:58,036 Speaker 1: I saw back at Yale, the first grades ever. I 434 00:24:58,076 --> 00:24:59,716 Speaker 1: thought he might get a kick out of seeing it. 435 00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:02,756 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how strong his reaction would be. This 436 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: is like showing me the first paddle that was used 437 00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 1: to hurt a kid. This is something I look at frowning. 438 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,596 Speaker 1: This is not something I treat as a as a 439 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:15,756 Speaker 1: cherished relic. As an educator. That's a tough thing to hear. 440 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:18,876 Speaker 1: Alphia is placing the grades I give my students on 441 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:23,076 Speaker 1: a spectrum that includes the horrifying practice of corporal punishment 442 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 1: beating my students. That's one thing I've learned from studying 443 00:25:27,036 --> 00:25:30,756 Speaker 1: this topic for thirty years is that rewards, like punishments, 444 00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: are ultimately about power. If I threaten you with a punishment, 445 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 1: you do this or I'm going to make you suffer. 446 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 1: It's obvious I'm trying to control you. But if I say, 447 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 1: if you jump through these hoops, here's the goodie I'll 448 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: give you, it should be obvious. But it isn't always 449 00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:53,996 Speaker 1: that that's just as much about control because it's treatily, 450 00:25:54,516 --> 00:25:57,796 Speaker 1: you know, because it's dipped in sugar syrup. We often 451 00:25:57,836 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 1: don't realize this is just as much about doing two 452 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:06,396 Speaker 1: rather than working with Alphie argues that we tend to 453 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:09,796 Speaker 1: see motivation as a single entity, when in reality, there 454 00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:13,356 Speaker 1: are two distinct forces which drive us, one intrinsic, the 455 00:26:13,436 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: other extrinsic. The first is a hero, but the second 456 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 1: is somewhat of a villain. Intrinsic motivation in general just 457 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:23,076 Speaker 1: means you get a kick out of whatever is you're doing. 458 00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: It means you enjoy doing something for its own sake, 459 00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:30,836 Speaker 1: and that can be reading a book, solving a problem, 460 00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:35,316 Speaker 1: writing code, painting a picture, helping someone who needs to 461 00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 1: help anything. Extrinsic motivation means you do something that's for 462 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:44,476 Speaker 1: something extrinsic to or outside of the task itself, such 463 00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 1: as getting a reward, and that reward could be money, 464 00:26:48,076 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 1: a grade, a certificate. It could be praise, good job 465 00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:56,916 Speaker 1: that's just a verbal doggy biscuit, or fear of punishment, 466 00:26:56,996 --> 00:26:59,916 Speaker 1: which is another kind of extrinsic motivation. So the question 467 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 1: I mean because you could see someone who really wanted 468 00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:05,356 Speaker 1: to motivate kids thinking, well, if they are already interested 469 00:27:05,356 --> 00:27:07,876 Speaker 1: in learning, why don't I add an additional reward on 470 00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:10,316 Speaker 1: top of that. You know, like two rewards should be 471 00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: better than one, right, right. The problem is that, first 472 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:18,836 Speaker 1: of all, you can't motivate someone other than yourself, and 473 00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:22,556 Speaker 1: the more you try, the more you paradoxically undermine the 474 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:26,316 Speaker 1: very thing you're trying to promote. So, for example, about 475 00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:29,596 Speaker 1: a half dozen studies have found that children who are 476 00:27:29,636 --> 00:27:35,076 Speaker 1: rewarded or praised are less generous than their peers. When 477 00:27:35,116 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 1: you say, good job, I really like how you shared 478 00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:42,396 Speaker 1: your brownie with Diane. You're so generous. Good for you. 479 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 1: That kid just became a little more selfish because you 480 00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 1: taught her that Diane's feelings are irrelevant. What matters is 481 00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:54,436 Speaker 1: what you'll get from helping, in this case, a patronizing 482 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 1: pat on the head. If you wanted to destroy a 483 00:27:57,396 --> 00:28:00,556 Speaker 1: child's interest in reading, you should give the kid a prize. 484 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:05,196 Speaker 1: For reading a book A that's manipulative, and people don't 485 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 1: like to be manipulated. B It intrinsically devalues the thing 486 00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 1: for which you got the reward. Now the kid figures 487 00:28:13,436 --> 00:28:15,796 Speaker 1: while reading must suck. If it's something they have to 488 00:28:15,836 --> 00:28:18,796 Speaker 1: bribe me to do, you have reframed it in the 489 00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: person's head. That's why it's so remarkable to watch little 490 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 1: kids who have not yet been graded and rated and 491 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:32,516 Speaker 1: ranked and so on, following their interests. You're looking at 492 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 1: intrinsic motivation in its undiluted form, where little kids can't 493 00:28:38,876 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 1: wait to figure out how to make sense of those 494 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:45,156 Speaker 1: squiggles on the restaurant menu. They want to know, as 495 00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 1: my daughter asked, are their bones in my tummy? They 496 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 1: keep asking us until we give them doggy biscuits for 497 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:56,876 Speaker 1: successful answering the question, and then they start asking a 498 00:28:56,916 --> 00:28:59,516 Speaker 1: different question, which is do we have to know this? 499 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 1: And we're continuing to treat our children, our students, our employees, 500 00:29:03,796 --> 00:29:07,956 Speaker 1: and sometimes even ourselves in effect like lab animals. It's 501 00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 1: not just dehumanieing. The research shows it's counterproductive, not merely ineffective. 502 00:29:14,756 --> 00:29:17,036 Speaker 1: The students I teach at Yale are far removed from 503 00:29:17,076 --> 00:29:20,796 Speaker 1: the innocent children. Alfie describes, after years of a's and b's, 504 00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:24,036 Speaker 1: they have internalized the pursuit of grades as the prime 505 00:29:24,036 --> 00:29:27,716 Speaker 1: motivation for paying attention in class. I worry the idea 506 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:29,716 Speaker 1: that they should learn because it brings them pleasure and 507 00:29:29,796 --> 00:29:33,516 Speaker 1: stimulation is long forgotten. They are way down a path 508 00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 1: leading them away from their own happiness. The question is 509 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:42,196 Speaker 1: not how much achievement do they have under their belts, 510 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 1: what's happened to their souls? It's what's happened to the 511 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 1: desire to figure stuff out that all human beings start with. 512 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:53,916 Speaker 1: Many of them are joyless. So we're in this situation 513 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,436 Speaker 1: where most educational systems are using grades. What's the solution. 514 00:29:57,836 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 1: If you're an individual teacher, you do what you can 515 00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:04,196 Speaker 1: in the long run by organizing and mobilizing your peers 516 00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:07,876 Speaker 1: to change the structure, rather than treating grades as a 517 00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 1: fact of nature, like the weather that's just always going 518 00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 1: to be with us and we have to cope with it. 519 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:16,796 Speaker 1: Is not it's a political decision. And there are plenty 520 00:30:16,796 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 1: of pilot projects and schools showing that you not only 521 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,996 Speaker 1: can do without grades, but that students do much better 522 00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: without them. As I talked to Alphie. More and more, 523 00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:28,876 Speaker 1: I started to believe it is possible to go back 524 00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,676 Speaker 1: to a world without grades, to what education was like 525 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:35,636 Speaker 1: before Ezra Style started this new creed. Alphie understands that 526 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:38,716 Speaker 1: it's a long road ahead, but he believes the revolution 527 00:30:38,796 --> 00:30:42,396 Speaker 1: is worth it. He even thinks are fundamental values goals 528 00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:45,796 Speaker 1: like equality and intrinsic worth depend on it. I think 529 00:30:45,836 --> 00:30:48,476 Speaker 1: your primary goal should be to help everyone to succeed. 530 00:30:49,076 --> 00:30:51,396 Speaker 1: If you had to use grades, then you would want 531 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:53,996 Speaker 1: everyone to get aids. The idea that there is a 532 00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 1: little normal distribution. A bell curve sits in the head 533 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,596 Speaker 1: of a lot of instructors, even when they're not creating 534 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:03,796 Speaker 1: on a curve. Greating on a curve is immoral. There's 535 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:05,716 Speaker 1: no other word for it. To say that, no matter 536 00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:10,236 Speaker 1: how well everyone does, some of you cannot get the 537 00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:14,316 Speaker 1: best grade. Suggest that it's a war of all against all. 538 00:31:14,756 --> 00:31:18,596 Speaker 1: The more we tend to see life in adversarial terms, 539 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:22,836 Speaker 1: where I can succeed only if you fail, the more 540 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: all of us are dragged down to failure. Even the 541 00:31:25,756 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 1: winners ultimately lose. So what should you take away from 542 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 1: this episode? First, the external rewards aren't all They're cracked 543 00:31:37,836 --> 00:31:40,396 Speaker 1: up to be Adding in a grade or a fitbit 544 00:31:40,436 --> 00:31:43,076 Speaker 1: buzz might change your performance in the short term, but 545 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 1: it'll cost you dearly. Pursuing success on those terms can 546 00:31:48,596 --> 00:31:51,596 Speaker 1: rob you of the joy you may experience in your studies, hobbies, 547 00:31:51,756 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 1: or even career, and that means we need to find 548 00:31:54,356 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 1: ways to return to our internal rewards. Run because you 549 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:01,236 Speaker 1: enjoy the sensation, not to beat some arbitrary number on 550 00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:05,356 Speaker 1: an app, take a class to satisfy your intellectual curiosity, 551 00:32:05,956 --> 00:32:08,716 Speaker 1: not to get on the honor roll and make a 552 00:32:08,796 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 1: podcast us for the fun of it, not to tap 553 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:15,316 Speaker 1: the charts. As people and as a society, we need 554 00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: to find ways to reduce these systems of external rewards 555 00:32:18,476 --> 00:32:21,396 Speaker 1: that we've surrounded ourselves with. It's the only way to 556 00:32:21,436 --> 00:32:24,876 Speaker 1: return to our childlike joy of learning just for learning sake, 557 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 1: just because it's fun, just because we dig it. And 558 00:32:29,236 --> 00:32:31,276 Speaker 1: if you want a completely grade free way to learn 559 00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:33,796 Speaker 1: about the other lives of your mind, then I really 560 00:32:33,796 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 1: hope you'll come back for the next season of The 561 00:32:35,916 --> 00:33:02,276 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab 562 00:33:02,356 --> 00:33:04,956 Speaker 1: is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show 563 00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 1: is mixed and mastered by Evan Viola and edited by 564 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:12,276 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, checking by Joseph Friedman, and our original music 565 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Mia LaBelle, 566 00:33:17,636 --> 00:33:23,036 Speaker 1: Carly mcgliori, Heather Faine, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, and Jacob Weisberg. 567 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 568 00:33:27,036 --> 00:33:28,836 Speaker 1: and me Doctor Laurie Sanders