WEBVTT - SCOTUS Lifts Restrictions on ICE Stops in LA 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law, with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.800 We know that this is simply un American, but as 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.520 enraging as the news is for Minny Angelinos and people 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.159 across the country, let me make this very clear for 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.640 the press and to our country that we will not 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:29.040 allow the Supreme Court or anyone to divide us. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:34.080 Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass slammed the Supreme Court's emergency 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.000 ruling on Monday that lifted a federal judge's order that 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.120 barred ice agents from stomping people solely on the basis 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.559 of their race, language, job, or location. The ruling was 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.440 six to three down ideological lines, and the conservative majority 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:56.440 didn't provide an explanation for their decision, but immigration advocates 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:01.160 say it means the court has basically legalized racial profiling. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.400 Emigration agents are now being given the power to profile, stop, detain, 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.840 and arrest people because of the color of their skin, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.880 the language they speak, or the work that they do. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.759 We should not have to live in a country where 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:23.400 the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.800 and appears to work a low wage job, wrote Justice 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:28.560 to the mayor. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.800 Justice Sonya Sotomayor wrote a blistering descent for the Court's liberals, 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.800 writing that she would not stand idly by while our 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.360 constitutional freedoms are lost and pointing out that the reasoning 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:48.000 behind the Court's entirely unexplained order is anyone's guests. My 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.240 guest is David Harris, a professor at the University of 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:56.080 Pittsburgh Law School and an expert in racial profiling. David, 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.800 under the Fourth Amendment, when can law enforcement agents stop someone? 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.040 People can be stopped by the police under the Fourth 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:09.080 Amendment when there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.560 afoot and they may be involved in the crime, and 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.920 reasonable suspicion is less than probable cause, but it is 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:19.840 based on facts and reasons. Now, when we transition from 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.560 detecting crime to looking at immigration issues, the standard is 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.000 still reasonable suspicion. There must be facts and there must 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.760 be proper inferences. But what we're looking for, of course, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.600 is whether a person is in immigration status or not. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.160 And you're still looking at reasonable suspicion. So what would 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.400 those factors be for immigration? The standard is the same. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:48.600 You just have to reference facts. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.560 What exactly did the Supreme Court do in its decision 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:54.000 on Monday. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.280 Well, what they did was to stop the decision of 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.640 the lower court stay it. The lower court in Los 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:06.480 Angeles had decided that ICE and its law enforcement allies 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:13.080 were using factors to stop people that inevitably led to 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:18.760 unconstitutional stops. And the lower court had said, you may 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:23.720 not use, either alone or in combination, the factors of 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:30.320 somebody's Hispanic or Latino appearance, speaking Spanish or having an 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.440 accent to speak Spanish appearance, that you are engaged in 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:39.720 low wage work and being at a location associated with 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.480 day labor. And the Court said, you can't do this 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.960 anymore because I can see from the evidence that I took. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.320 The judge said that this is being done in ways 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.640 that violate the Constitution. And what the Supreme Court did 0:03:55.720 --> 0:04:00.160 on its emergency docket was to say, no, no, this 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.080 order will not go into effect. We're holding it for 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.480 now until we have more time to look at it. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.960 And Justice Kavanaugh wrote an opinion that is not a 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.160 full opinion, it is not for the court, saying that 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.479 he believed that the administration of Trump and his allies 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.359 who want to be able to use those factors will 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.760 succeed when they get to a full hearing that they'll win, 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.719 and therefore Ice and the police allies can go back 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.920 to using those factors when they stop people to see 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.920 if they are in violation of the immigration laws. And 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.760 this called forth some opinions from the other justices, notably 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.720 Justice Sonia Sotomayer, who said that this was going to 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.200 lead us in the wrong direction. You'd have people being 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:58.080 stopped just for their Hispanic appearance, just for speaking Spanish. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.880 So is what the courts do. Though the court conveniently, 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.520 as you mentioned, did not issue a majority opinion, so 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.480 we don't know why they said this. But are they 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.240 basically saying, well, racial profiling's okay. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.039 Then what they're doing is they're looking back and this 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.760 is the best we can tell. We're not really sure because, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.760 like you said, there is no opinion, there's been no 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.200 briefing on this, there's been no argument, there's no full opinion, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.280 so we're having to speculate to some extent. But what 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.000 they seem to be saying, based on the fact that 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.840 they stopped the lower court's ruling, which would have put 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.680 a stop to all of this, and Justice Kavanaugh's opinion 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:41.480 for himself is it's okay. To use some combination of 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:46.880 those four factors, ethnic appearance, Spanish speaking or accent, appearance 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.440 of being a low wage worker in these particular locations. Now, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:54.720 Kavanaugh was clear on saying, you can't just say, well, 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.080 this person looks Mexican and that's enough. That wouldn't be 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.440 alone by itself. But it's a very slippery slope down 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:06.200 to exactly that point. Our experience with this sort of 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.839 thing goes back many years now. I've been studying racial 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.640 and ethnic profiling for well over thirty years, and we've 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.240 seen it. We've seen exactly this kind of thing before. 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.800 We saw it when Arizona enacted they show your paper 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.160 statue back in about two thousand and eight or so, 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.760 and Sheriff Joe Arpaio went to town on that and 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.400 it was just picking up people because of how they 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:33.680 looked and their Spanish speaking or their accent. And that 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.280 is racial profiling by any other name. I mean, we 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.920 don't want to call it that, fine, but that's what happened. 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.440 Law enforcement begins to lean on the most obvious factors, 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.240 and that's what the judge saw in Los Angeles, and 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.400 that's why the judge stopped them from doing this in 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.520 the first place. So all of this will move immigration 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.599 enforcement efforts right up to that very same line, and 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.400 we will have people getting picked up just for how 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.080 they look, weather they're Spanish speaking. It's going to happen 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:04.440 as night follows day. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.039 And I mean, the only way you'll get to see 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.600 what the officers relied on is if a case is 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:13.440 brought right. 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.000 Exactly, and there will be some cases broad chances there, 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.640 because one of the other effects of this is going 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.720 to be that lots of people will be interrogated and 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.600 even picked up and arrested who are in good order 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.520 as far as immigration law. That's another thing that we see. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.160 Whenever there is widespread sort of dragnet pulling people in 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.880 on these very basic factors, they end up making mistakes 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.520 law enforcement folks do when they're allowed to lean on 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.760 those kind of factors, and we will get a few 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.040 people who end up in custody, maybe for a few days, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.200 maybe for a long time, maybe even getting deported before 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.600 it can be reversed and they can bring a case. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.720 Justice Kavanaugh says in his opinion, well, look, if everything's 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.760 in order, they'll just let you go. And he says 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.080 it's an important problem in Los Angeles, because there's an 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.880 estimate of stake two million people who are undocumented in 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.480 Los Angeles. But what he does say is that there 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:20.480 are millions more who share those characteristics, who have ethnic 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.880 features of people from Latin America, who speak Spanish, who 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.320 have a Spanish accent, and they're going to be swept 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.880 up in this too, and that's where the cases will 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:29.960 probably come from. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.840 Just as Kavanaugh said, as for stops of those individuals 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.920 who are legally in the country, the questioning in those 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:41.400 circumstances is typically brief, and those individuals may promptly go 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.760 free after making clear to the immigration officers that they 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.560 are US citizens or otherwise legally in the United States. 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.640 He doesn't mention that one of the plaintiffs here, Jason 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.839 Brian Gavidia, who's an American citizen, was stopped by immigration agents, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.079 shoved into a metal fence and his arm was twisted 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.480 behind his back, all the while that he's shouting, I'm American, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.440 I was born in East LA And there's video of 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.640 it that anyone can see on the internet. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:16.679 Look literally based off with skin color. 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.640 Gavidia says that he was frightened and the agents took 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.839 his phone and ID. He was released, but he never 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:27.319 did get his ID card back. 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.080 Yeah, I mean this is going to happen. This is 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:36.040 going to happen more now that everybody can see, including 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.960 the ICE agents and the police are helping them, that 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:42.320 they've been given the green light. So we will have 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.800 that happen. It's a certainty. And for Justice Cavanaugh to say, hey, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.079 it's all fine as long as you carrying your papers 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.960 with it, well, I mean, do you carry your birth 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.600 certificate to work? I mean does everybody do that? And 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.480 even if you do, you might not get those things back. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.200 You can be in big trouble even if you have 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.640 crushed every t and dited every eye and you were 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.080 born here. So I just really took offense at that. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.200 I think it's somebody who never has to confront these 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.280 problems making a pronouncement he knows nothing about. 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.079 So Justice Sodomayo wrote a stinging descent quote, we should 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.040 not have to live in a country where the government 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.400 can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.080 to work a low wage job. She quoted a nineteen 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.840 seventy five case that said it was unconstitutional for the 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.320 border patrol to stop a car and question its occupants 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.240 when the only ground for suspicion was that they appeared 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.880 to be of Mexican ancestry. Does this shadow docket decision 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.080 contradict that decision or is it broader. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.640 It's a little broader, But again we're less to speculate 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.400 because it's just on the shadow docket and there's been 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.679 no full opinion. There was no briefing for the court, 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.240 there was no argument. But that's a live question. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:10:59.880 For sure. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.280 There is an older case that says things like that 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:08.240 you have to go beyond just ethnic appearance, but certainly 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.080 it does also say that same case, ethnic appearance counts. 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.280 And my experience, in the experience of those who study 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.680 this as I have, is that when that's a factor 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.240 that is relied on, even with others in the mix, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.400 law enforcement leans heavily on. It discounts the other factors 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.720 that may go in the other direction, and you get 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:35.199 mistakes and the enforcement itself becomes less efficient. But more 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.080 than that, people who are in good order will have 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.800 this imposed on them, and it'll be up to them 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.959 to prove no, no, I'm here legally, I was born here, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.559 whatever it is. Instead of the other way around. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.559 Coming up is Chicago. Next, this is Bloomberg. I've been 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.840 talking to Professor David Harris of the University of Pittsburgh 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.160 Law School about the Supreme Court in a six to 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.880 three decision and lifting a restraining order from a judge 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:07.840 who found that roving patrols were conducting indiscriminate stomps in 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.680 and around LA. The order had barred immigration agents from 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:16.600 stomping people solely based on their race, language, job, or location. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.840 So Ice has promised in an online post to quote 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.880 continue to flood the zone in Los Angeles. So they 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.120 seem to be taking this as an okay from the 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:29.000 Supreme Court. 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.720 Absolutely, it's the green light. They can all see it. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.600 Everybody can read it. And when they say flood the zone, 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.520 they mean lots and lots of people from our force 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.840 will be out there doing this. And you know, like 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.240 I said before, this is just so unfortunate because when 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.160 we pour people into a problem like this and we 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.840 give them, give them the green light and the thumbs up, 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.079 we know that some people are going to be impacted 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.480 negatively who have done nothing wrong and shouldn't have to 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:00.800 be imposed upon. And long range, what you care about 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.920 is public safety. If that's on your agenda, you are 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.640 doing the wrong thing. You're cutting off your nose despite 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.960 your face. Because public safety depends on public support. You 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.600 need the public to give the police information about what's 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:18.200 what in the neighborhoods. If this is happening not just 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.360 to people who might be deported legitimately, let's say, but 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.520 to other members of their family who are here legally, 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.199 to people who are just in the neighborhood and who 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.200 have been born here because they look a certain way. 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.320 That is going to alienate people, not just from ice 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:40.320 but from police generally. And that is a terrible message 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.080 to send out, and it makes them less likely to 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.800 cooperate with any policing of any type, and that will 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.440 leave predators on our streets. So this immigration policy of 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:55.480 flooding the zone with forces with these low accuracy factors, 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.760 this is going to make it more dangerous for us 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.120 just on the level of regular crime. 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.880 The way they're stopping based on these factors, I mean, 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.080 is that proving to be a good way to find 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.040 people who are here illegally. Are they making a lot 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.400 of arrest because of that? 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.840 Undoubtedly they are making some arrest of people who are deportable. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.240 There's no doubt about that. It works. Sometimes the question 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.800 is isn't there a better way that doesn't also sweep in 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.120 lots of people who have nothing to do with this, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.880 who are not part of whatever you consider the immigration problem. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.200 If you simply rely on this sort of blunt instrument, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.720 you're going to be doing damage along with whatever you 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.280 see as moving toward your goals. So it will work, 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.160 There's no question that sometimes it will work. Can I 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.240 give you a number? No? Is it nine out of 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.200 ten times? Is it one out of two times? Nobody knows? 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.640 And this stuff isn't being tracked. But when you lean 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:59.800 on ethnic or racial appearance even as one factor along, 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.480 the data for years and years has been clear that 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:08.280 this kind of approach is far less accurate than others 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.120 you might use, and it alienates the public that you 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:13.600 really need to support you. 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.800 Yeah, I was reading that in some neighborhoods in Los Angeles, 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.400 when they see those vans with tinted windows, the neighbors 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.840 who are here legally go out and warn people. 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.280 And absolutely, and we can't be surprised by that given 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.600 what we've seen, given the way that force has been 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.320 used on people, and that has been sort of publicized, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.000 pushed out. Look, this is a good thing. Is it surprising? 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.120 Not at all? People have been put in fear by this, 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.720 and quite deliberately put in fear. So you can't be 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:52.080 shocked when members of the public turn around and say, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.880 this isn't the kind of thing I want going on, 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.760 and they start warning people. You know, they're not on 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.040 the enforcement team, they're on the non enforcement team. Think 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:03.520 of it like. 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:07.920 That immigration advocates say and fear that this is going 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:12.280 to open the door to racial profiling of Hispanic people 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.800 across the United States. Do you think now that the 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.560 Supreme Court has said this is okay in Los Angeles, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.440 it'll be okay in Chicago or New York or other cities. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.920 Well, again, we're left without full knowledge of what the 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.120 Supreme Court has done or will do, because they have 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.760 made this statement, put out this stay of the lower 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.640 court's order, and then you have Justice Kavanaugh's opinion, which 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.480 doesn't represent the whole court. We don't know how far 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.760 they will go or what they will say in the end. 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.960 But people who know just the headline, if they're in 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.200 the enforcement business, that's how they're going to take it 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:55.280 Supreme Court says it's okay to use racial or ethnic appearance. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.040 They're not even going to make the distinction that Justice 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:03.280 Kavanaugh does, which is that wouldn't be enough by itself. 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.560 They're going to take it as racial profiling is okay. 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:08.840 And if it's okay in LA, why wouldn't it be 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.280 okay in Chicago or New York. So this has the 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.159 potential to do a lot of damage in ways that 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.680 we would probably want to avoid. But with this decision, 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.600 the way it's come out and the insufficient explanation, I 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:23.920 think there's no avoiding it. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.760 And just as so Demayor pointed out that there's no 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.879 way of knowing what the reasoning of the Court was. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:35.240 That it's anybody's guess what they based this on. I mean, 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.479 is it possible that they didn't base it on what 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:38.480 Kavanaugh says? 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.760 No, he's probably got most of it in the sense 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.600 that there is a legitimate legal issue about issuing an 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.280 injunction under the current standards of the court to stop 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.119 activity like this, and there's a legitimate legal issue about 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:59.360 whether you can have ethnic or racial appearance being a factor. 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.320 And he suggests that he thinks the law is clear 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.040 on that, and that's going to be debated if there's 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.359 ever a full argument and a full briefing of this 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.800 for the court, and we'll see where the court comes out. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.119 But if he's an indication, that's how many of the 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.199 justices on the right we'll see it. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:20.320 The judge below made some specific findings. Now the case 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.720 is going to go forward. I mean, is there any 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.199 chance that there'll be some different kind of findings that 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.520 will change the Supreme Court's mind? It seemed like the 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.360 court below is pretty thorough. 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.160 It was, and no matter what the Supreme Court does, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.240 let's say that they follow what we have on the 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.920 books now, which leaves us guessing with a full opinion 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:48.720 that basically follows up and down with what Justice Kavanas said. 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.040 If that's the case, you will have lower courts still 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.080 confronted with lawsuits by people who are citizens or legal 0:18:56.119 --> 0:19:01.280 permanent presidents. You will have lower courts receiving information about 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.520 what ice is done. Have they only relied, for instance, 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.520 on racial appearance, ethnic appearance without considering other factors, and 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.040 cases will continue to come. What tells me that is 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.000 prior experience when this kind of an order comes out. Hey, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.879 let's flood the zone. Let's get in there, let's get everybody, 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.639 vacuum them up. Mistakes are going to be made, and 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.240 those will end up in a record, and a lower 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.760 court will walk along the lines dictated by the Supreme 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.119 Court whatever it decides. But I don't think these cases 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.040 will stop coming, just given the volume of activity and 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.520 the way the people from ICE are being urged to 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.240 proceed by those in charge. 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:45.480 There's a preliminary injunction hearing schedule for September twenty fourth, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.960 But in light of this Supreme Court decision, can a 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.280 judge is your preliminary injunction at this point? 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.120 And whatever it was that the lower court did is stayed, 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.479 So proceedings will not go forward on that level until 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:01.440 there's clarity. 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.320 And when will their reclarity? 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:05.479 Your guess is as good as mine. I don't think 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.320 anybody knows. And the more of these emergency shadow docket 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.480 cases we get with the half opinions that aren't supposed 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.240 to be precedents, but then Justice Gorsuch tells us no, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.560 the lower court should be looking at them as authoritative. 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.920 In the National Student Health case, I mean, confusion is 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.800 really sprouting here. It's really really hard for lower courts 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.560 and for anybody to know what's happening when and when 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.800 we might have some real clarity on any of these issues. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.000 Yes, Justice gor such did not like that in the 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.880 space of a few weeks, all these different courts were 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.560 not following the Supreme Court's obvious guidance. 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.000 Yeah, that's right. And yet that quote obvious guidance is 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.040 coming in a form which has always been regarded as 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.000 without presidential value. So for him to say that, I 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.720 really think was just out of line. The lower Court 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.720 in that instance apologized that he did not mean to 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.800 ignore them. But what are you supposed to do? I mean, 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.199 I wouldn't want that job right now of trying to 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.560 figure out what the Supreme Court is telling me to do. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.439 And now, apparently in Chicago, local activists said that, you know, 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:21.040 ICE agents had been targeted in their tactics presenting warrants 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.760 at specific homes or detaining people an immigration court. But 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.719 now they're stopping people on the streets in what seems 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.919 to be a fairly random fashion. So it seems to 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.120 be copying what they did in La. 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.680 Well, exactly random stops, that kind of roving, random stops, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.160 that's exactly what the lower court judge had in mind. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.720 Those don't have to be unconstitutional in the legal sense, 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.639 but they lead to that behavior. That's essentially what the 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.919 judge in the Los Angeles case found. And you know, 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.120 when you basically tell them it's all up to you. 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.119 All you have to do is see somebody who looks 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.959 hispanic and is dressed for low wage work. You know 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:07.199 they're just going to go to town with that. You know 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.119 they're going to follow the direction that the Supreme Court 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:13.080 has pointed them. So I hope nobody is surprised to 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:13.399 see that. 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.199 So, David, how big a win is this for the 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:17.280 Trump administration. 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.960 Well, it's a win in the sense that a judge 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.960 in Los Angeles on the ground ordered this activity stopped 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:27.359 in the form that it was taking, and now the 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.080 Supreme Court has said no, it can go forward. It's 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.280 not a permanent win, even if we have good indications 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.800 that this is the direction that the Supreme Court is 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.280 going to go. But again, we're less in a little 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:43.280 confusion about that. What we do know is that now 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.919 Ice and whatever law enforcement allies have signed up to 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.000 help will go ahead and keep doing things the way 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.760 they were in Los Angeles, with these kind of randomized 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:58.320 activities sweeping in lots of people, some of whom are 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:03.120 undocumented and some of whom are not. And I would predict, 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.720 without knowing how people think in the White House, that 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.160 they're going to applaud that and remind me. 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.800 What happened with the show me your papers in Arizona. 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.840 Yeah, what happened there is the law passed. It was 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.920 a state law, and police started going with that, and 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.000 Sheriff Joe, you know, chief among them, and it was 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:28.639 pretty quickly found that he was using ethnic appearance, focusing 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:33.200 on Latino people in ways that violated the Fourth Amendment 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:37.280 and violated the Equal Protection claw. A judge ordered it stopped, 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:39.879 and he went ahead and did it anyway, and he 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:43.080 ended up in criminal contempt. That's why Trump eventually had 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:43.920 to pardon him. 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:46.960 Now it's coming back to me. Thanks so much, David, 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:49.879 It's always great to talk to you. That's Professor David 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:53.880 Harris of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Coming 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.520 up next on The Bloomberg Law Show. President Trump calls 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:01.480 a birthday note he allegedly sent to Joffree Epstein a 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:06.480