1
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law, with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 2: We know that this is simply un American, but as

3
00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,520
Speaker 2: enraging as the news is for Minny Angelinos and people

4
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,159
Speaker 2: across the country, let me make this very clear for

5
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,640
Speaker 2: the press and to our country that we will not

6
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 2: allow the Supreme Court or anyone to divide us.

7
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass slammed the Supreme Court's emergency

8
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: ruling on Monday that lifted a federal judge's order that

9
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: barred ice agents from stomping people solely on the basis

10
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,559
Speaker 1: of their race, language, job, or location. The ruling was

11
00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 1: six to three down ideological lines, and the conservative majority

12
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 1: didn't provide an explanation for their decision, but immigration advocates

13
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 1: say it means the court has basically legalized racial profiling.

14
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,400
Speaker 3: Emigration agents are now being given the power to profile, stop, detain,

15
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 3: and arrest people because of the color of their skin,

16
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,880
Speaker 3: the language they speak, or the work that they do.

17
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,759
Speaker 4: We should not have to live in a country where

18
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:23,400
Speaker 4: the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish,

19
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,800
Speaker 4: and appears to work a low wage job, wrote Justice

20
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 4: to the mayor.

21
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 1: Justice Sonya Sotomayor wrote a blistering descent for the Court's liberals,

22
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,800
Speaker 1: writing that she would not stand idly by while our

23
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: constitutional freedoms are lost and pointing out that the reasoning

24
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: behind the Court's entirely unexplained order is anyone's guests. My

25
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: guest is David Harris, a professor at the University of

26
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Law School and an expert in racial profiling. David,

27
00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,800
Speaker 1: under the Fourth Amendment, when can law enforcement agents stop someone?

28
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 5: People can be stopped by the police under the Fourth

29
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 5: Amendment when there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is

30
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 5: afoot and they may be involved in the crime, and

31
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,920
Speaker 5: reasonable suspicion is less than probable cause, but it is

32
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 5: based on facts and reasons. Now, when we transition from

33
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 5: detecting crime to looking at immigration issues, the standard is

34
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,000
Speaker 5: still reasonable suspicion. There must be facts and there must

35
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 5: be proper inferences. But what we're looking for, of course,

36
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 5: is whether a person is in immigration status or not.

37
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 5: And you're still looking at reasonable suspicion. So what would

38
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 5: those factors be for immigration? The standard is the same.

39
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 5: You just have to reference facts.

40
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 1: What exactly did the Supreme Court do in its decision

41
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 1: on Monday.

42
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 5: Well, what they did was to stop the decision of

43
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 5: the lower court stay it. The lower court in Los

44
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 5: Angeles had decided that ICE and its law enforcement allies

45
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:13,080
Speaker 5: were using factors to stop people that inevitably led to

46
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 5: unconstitutional stops. And the lower court had said, you may

47
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 5: not use, either alone or in combination, the factors of

48
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 5: somebody's Hispanic or Latino appearance, speaking Spanish or having an

49
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,440
Speaker 5: accent to speak Spanish appearance, that you are engaged in

50
00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 5: low wage work and being at a location associated with

51
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 5: day labor. And the Court said, you can't do this

52
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 5: anymore because I can see from the evidence that I took.

53
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 5: The judge said that this is being done in ways

54
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 5: that violate the Constitution. And what the Supreme Court did

55
00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,160
Speaker 5: on its emergency docket was to say, no, no, this

56
00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,080
Speaker 5: order will not go into effect. We're holding it for

57
00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,480
Speaker 5: now until we have more time to look at it.

58
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 5: And Justice Kavanaugh wrote an opinion that is not a

59
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 5: full opinion, it is not for the court, saying that

60
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,479
Speaker 5: he believed that the administration of Trump and his allies

61
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,359
Speaker 5: who want to be able to use those factors will

62
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 5: succeed when they get to a full hearing that they'll win,

63
00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 5: and therefore Ice and the police allies can go back

64
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,920
Speaker 5: to using those factors when they stop people to see

65
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 5: if they are in violation of the immigration laws. And

66
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,760
Speaker 5: this called forth some opinions from the other justices, notably

67
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,720
Speaker 5: Justice Sonia Sotomayer, who said that this was going to

68
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 5: lead us in the wrong direction. You'd have people being

69
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:58,080
Speaker 5: stopped just for their Hispanic appearance, just for speaking Spanish.

70
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 1: So is what the courts do. Though the court conveniently,

71
00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, did not issue a majority opinion, so

72
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,480
Speaker 1: we don't know why they said this. But are they

73
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 1: basically saying, well, racial profiling's okay.

74
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,039
Speaker 5: Then what they're doing is they're looking back and this

75
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,760
Speaker 5: is the best we can tell. We're not really sure because,

76
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 5: like you said, there is no opinion, there's been no

77
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 5: briefing on this, there's been no argument, there's no full opinion,

78
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,280
Speaker 5: so we're having to speculate to some extent. But what

79
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,000
Speaker 5: they seem to be saying, based on the fact that

80
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,840
Speaker 5: they stopped the lower court's ruling, which would have put

81
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 5: a stop to all of this, and Justice Kavanaugh's opinion

82
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:41,480
Speaker 5: for himself is it's okay. To use some combination of

83
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 5: those four factors, ethnic appearance, Spanish speaking or accent, appearance

84
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,440
Speaker 5: of being a low wage worker in these particular locations. Now,

85
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,720
Speaker 5: Kavanaugh was clear on saying, you can't just say, well,

86
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,080
Speaker 5: this person looks Mexican and that's enough. That wouldn't be

87
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 5: alone by itself. But it's a very slippery slope down

88
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 5: to exactly that point. Our experience with this sort of

89
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 5: thing goes back many years now. I've been studying racial

90
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 5: and ethnic profiling for well over thirty years, and we've

91
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,240
Speaker 5: seen it. We've seen exactly this kind of thing before.

92
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 5: We saw it when Arizona enacted they show your paper

93
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 5: statue back in about two thousand and eight or so,

94
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 5: and Sheriff Joe Arpaio went to town on that and

95
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 5: it was just picking up people because of how they

96
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,680
Speaker 5: looked and their Spanish speaking or their accent. And that

97
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 5: is racial profiling by any other name. I mean, we

98
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 5: don't want to call it that, fine, but that's what happened.

99
00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 5: Law enforcement begins to lean on the most obvious factors,

100
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,240
Speaker 5: and that's what the judge saw in Los Angeles, and

101
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 5: that's why the judge stopped them from doing this in

102
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 5: the first place. So all of this will move immigration

103
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 5: enforcement efforts right up to that very same line, and

104
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,400
Speaker 5: we will have people getting picked up just for how

105
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,080
Speaker 5: they look, weather they're Spanish speaking. It's going to happen

106
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 5: as night follows day.

107
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,039
Speaker 1: And I mean, the only way you'll get to see

108
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: what the officers relied on is if a case is

109
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:13,440
Speaker 1: brought right.

110
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,000
Speaker 5: Exactly, and there will be some cases broad chances there,

111
00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,640
Speaker 5: because one of the other effects of this is going

112
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 5: to be that lots of people will be interrogated and

113
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 5: even picked up and arrested who are in good order

114
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,520
Speaker 5: as far as immigration law. That's another thing that we see.

115
00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 5: Whenever there is widespread sort of dragnet pulling people in

116
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 5: on these very basic factors, they end up making mistakes

117
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 5: law enforcement folks do when they're allowed to lean on

118
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 5: those kind of factors, and we will get a few

119
00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,040
Speaker 5: people who end up in custody, maybe for a few days,

120
00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,200
Speaker 5: maybe for a long time, maybe even getting deported before

121
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 5: it can be reversed and they can bring a case.

122
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 5: Justice Kavanaugh says in his opinion, well, look, if everything's

123
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 5: in order, they'll just let you go. And he says

124
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 5: it's an important problem in Los Angeles, because there's an

125
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 5: estimate of stake two million people who are undocumented in

126
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 5: Los Angeles. But what he does say is that there

127
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 5: are millions more who share those characteristics, who have ethnic

128
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,880
Speaker 5: features of people from Latin America, who speak Spanish, who

129
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 5: have a Spanish accent, and they're going to be swept

130
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 5: up in this too, and that's where the cases will

131
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 5: probably come from.

132
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 1: Just as Kavanaugh said, as for stops of those individuals

133
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 1: who are legally in the country, the questioning in those

134
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 1: circumstances is typically brief, and those individuals may promptly go

135
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 1: free after making clear to the immigration officers that they

136
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 1: are US citizens or otherwise legally in the United States.

137
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't mention that one of the plaintiffs here, Jason

138
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,839
Speaker 1: Brian Gavidia, who's an American citizen, was stopped by immigration agents,

139
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,079
Speaker 1: shoved into a metal fence and his arm was twisted

140
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: behind his back, all the while that he's shouting, I'm American,

141
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 1: I was born in East LA And there's video of

142
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 1: it that anyone can see on the internet.

143
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:16,679
Speaker 6: Look literally based off with skin color.

144
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 1: Gavidia says that he was frightened and the agents took

145
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,839
Speaker 1: his phone and ID. He was released, but he never

146
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,319
Speaker 1: did get his ID card back.

147
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this is going to happen. This is

148
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 5: going to happen more now that everybody can see, including

149
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 5: the ICE agents and the police are helping them, that

150
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,320
Speaker 5: they've been given the green light. So we will have

151
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 5: that happen. It's a certainty. And for Justice Cavanaugh to say, hey,

152
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,079
Speaker 5: it's all fine as long as you carrying your papers

153
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,960
Speaker 5: with it, well, I mean, do you carry your birth

154
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,600
Speaker 5: certificate to work? I mean does everybody do that? And

155
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 5: even if you do, you might not get those things back.

156
00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 5: You can be in big trouble even if you have

157
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 5: crushed every t and dited every eye and you were

158
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 5: born here. So I just really took offense at that.

159
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,200
Speaker 5: I think it's somebody who never has to confront these

160
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 5: problems making a pronouncement he knows nothing about.

161
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,079
Speaker 1: So Justice Sodomayo wrote a stinging descent quote, we should

162
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: not have to live in a country where the government

163
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears

164
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,080
Speaker 1: to work a low wage job. She quoted a nineteen

165
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: seventy five case that said it was unconstitutional for the

166
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 1: border patrol to stop a car and question its occupants

167
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 1: when the only ground for suspicion was that they appeared

168
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: to be of Mexican ancestry. Does this shadow docket decision

169
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,080
Speaker 1: contradict that decision or is it broader.

170
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 5: It's a little broader, But again we're less to speculate

171
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 5: because it's just on the shadow docket and there's been

172
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,679
Speaker 5: no full opinion. There was no briefing for the court,

173
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 5: there was no argument. But that's a live question.

174
00:10:59,480 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 6: For sure.

175
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,280
Speaker 5: There is an older case that says things like that

176
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 5: you have to go beyond just ethnic appearance, but certainly

177
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,080
Speaker 5: it does also say that same case, ethnic appearance counts.

178
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 5: And my experience, in the experience of those who study

179
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,680
Speaker 5: this as I have, is that when that's a factor

180
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 5: that is relied on, even with others in the mix,

181
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 5: law enforcement leans heavily on. It discounts the other factors

182
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,720
Speaker 5: that may go in the other direction, and you get

183
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,199
Speaker 5: mistakes and the enforcement itself becomes less efficient. But more

184
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,080
Speaker 5: than that, people who are in good order will have

185
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 5: this imposed on them, and it'll be up to them

186
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,959
Speaker 5: to prove no, no, I'm here legally, I was born here,

187
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,559
Speaker 5: whatever it is. Instead of the other way around.

188
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,559
Speaker 1: Coming up is Chicago. Next, this is Bloomberg. I've been

189
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,840
Speaker 1: talking to Professor David Harris of the University of Pittsburgh

190
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 1: Law School about the Supreme Court in a six to

191
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,880
Speaker 1: three decision and lifting a restraining order from a judge

192
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,840
Speaker 1: who found that roving patrols were conducting indiscriminate stomps in

193
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,680
Speaker 1: and around LA. The order had barred immigration agents from

194
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: stomping people solely based on their race, language, job, or location.

195
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 1: So Ice has promised in an online post to quote

196
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 1: continue to flood the zone in Los Angeles. So they

197
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 1: seem to be taking this as an okay from the

198
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court.

199
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,720
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's the green light. They can all see it.

200
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 5: Everybody can read it. And when they say flood the zone,

201
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 5: they mean lots and lots of people from our force

202
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 5: will be out there doing this. And you know, like

203
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 5: I said before, this is just so unfortunate because when

204
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160
Speaker 5: we pour people into a problem like this and we

205
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,840
Speaker 5: give them, give them the green light and the thumbs up,

206
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,079
Speaker 5: we know that some people are going to be impacted

207
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,480
Speaker 5: negatively who have done nothing wrong and shouldn't have to

208
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 5: be imposed upon. And long range, what you care about

209
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,920
Speaker 5: is public safety. If that's on your agenda, you are

210
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 5: doing the wrong thing. You're cutting off your nose despite

211
00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,960
Speaker 5: your face. Because public safety depends on public support. You

212
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,600
Speaker 5: need the public to give the police information about what's

213
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 5: what in the neighborhoods. If this is happening not just

214
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 5: to people who might be deported legitimately, let's say, but

215
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 5: to other members of their family who are here legally,

216
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,199
Speaker 5: to people who are just in the neighborhood and who

217
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 5: have been born here because they look a certain way.

218
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 5: That is going to alienate people, not just from ice

219
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,320
Speaker 5: but from police generally. And that is a terrible message

220
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,080
Speaker 5: to send out, and it makes them less likely to

221
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,800
Speaker 5: cooperate with any policing of any type, and that will

222
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 5: leave predators on our streets. So this immigration policy of

223
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,480
Speaker 5: flooding the zone with forces with these low accuracy factors,

224
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,760
Speaker 5: this is going to make it more dangerous for us

225
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,120
Speaker 5: just on the level of regular crime.

226
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 1: The way they're stopping based on these factors, I mean,

227
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 1: is that proving to be a good way to find

228
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 1: people who are here illegally. Are they making a lot

229
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 1: of arrest because of that?

230
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,840
Speaker 5: Undoubtedly they are making some arrest of people who are deportable.

231
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 5: There's no doubt about that. It works. Sometimes the question

232
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 5: is isn't there a better way that doesn't also sweep in

233
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 5: lots of people who have nothing to do with this,

234
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 5: who are not part of whatever you consider the immigration problem.

235
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 5: If you simply rely on this sort of blunt instrument,

236
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 5: you're going to be doing damage along with whatever you

237
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 5: see as moving toward your goals. So it will work,

238
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 5: There's no question that sometimes it will work. Can I

239
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 5: give you a number? No? Is it nine out of

240
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 5: ten times? Is it one out of two times? Nobody knows?

241
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 5: And this stuff isn't being tracked. But when you lean

242
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 5: on ethnic or racial appearance even as one factor along,

243
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 5: the data for years and years has been clear that

244
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,280
Speaker 5: this kind of approach is far less accurate than others

245
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 5: you might use, and it alienates the public that you

246
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 5: really need to support you.

247
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was reading that in some neighborhoods in Los Angeles,

248
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: when they see those vans with tinted windows, the neighbors

249
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 1: who are here legally go out and warn people.

250
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 5: And absolutely, and we can't be surprised by that given

251
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 5: what we've seen, given the way that force has been

252
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 5: used on people, and that has been sort of publicized,

253
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 5: pushed out. Look, this is a good thing. Is it surprising?

254
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 5: Not at all? People have been put in fear by this,

255
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 5: and quite deliberately put in fear. So you can't be

256
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 5: shocked when members of the public turn around and say,

257
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 5: this isn't the kind of thing I want going on,

258
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 5: and they start warning people. You know, they're not on

259
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 5: the enforcement team, they're on the non enforcement team. Think

260
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 5: of it like.

261
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 1: That immigration advocates say and fear that this is going

262
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: to open the door to racial profiling of Hispanic people

263
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: across the United States. Do you think now that the

264
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 1: Supreme Court has said this is okay in Los Angeles,

265
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: it'll be okay in Chicago or New York or other cities.

266
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 5: Well, again, we're left without full knowledge of what the

267
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,120
Speaker 5: Supreme Court has done or will do, because they have

268
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 5: made this statement, put out this stay of the lower

269
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 5: court's order, and then you have Justice Kavanaugh's opinion, which

270
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 5: doesn't represent the whole court. We don't know how far

271
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 5: they will go or what they will say in the end.

272
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 5: But people who know just the headline, if they're in

273
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 5: the enforcement business, that's how they're going to take it

274
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 5: Supreme Court says it's okay to use racial or ethnic appearance.

275
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 5: They're not even going to make the distinction that Justice

276
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 5: Kavanaugh does, which is that wouldn't be enough by itself.

277
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 5: They're going to take it as racial profiling is okay.

278
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 5: And if it's okay in LA, why wouldn't it be

279
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 5: okay in Chicago or New York. So this has the

280
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,159
Speaker 5: potential to do a lot of damage in ways that

281
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,680
Speaker 5: we would probably want to avoid. But with this decision,

282
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,600
Speaker 5: the way it's come out and the insufficient explanation, I

283
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:23,920
Speaker 5: think there's no avoiding it.

284
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: And just as so Demayor pointed out that there's no

285
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 1: way of knowing what the reasoning of the Court was.

286
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: That it's anybody's guess what they based this on. I mean,

287
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,479
Speaker 1: is it possible that they didn't base it on what

288
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh says?

289
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 5: No, he's probably got most of it in the sense

290
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 5: that there is a legitimate legal issue about issuing an

291
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 5: injunction under the current standards of the court to stop

292
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 5: activity like this, and there's a legitimate legal issue about

293
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,360
Speaker 5: whether you can have ethnic or racial appearance being a factor.

294
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 5: And he suggests that he thinks the law is clear

295
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 5: on that, and that's going to be debated if there's

296
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 5: ever a full argument and a full briefing of this

297
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 5: for the court, and we'll see where the court comes out.

298
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,119
Speaker 5: But if he's an indication, that's how many of the

299
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,199
Speaker 5: justices on the right we'll see it.

300
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: The judge below made some specific findings. Now the case

301
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: is going to go forward. I mean, is there any

302
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 1: chance that there'll be some different kind of findings that

303
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: will change the Supreme Court's mind? It seemed like the

304
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,360
Speaker 1: court below is pretty thorough.

305
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,160
Speaker 5: It was, and no matter what the Supreme Court does,

306
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,240
Speaker 5: let's say that they follow what we have on the

307
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,920
Speaker 5: books now, which leaves us guessing with a full opinion

308
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,720
Speaker 5: that basically follows up and down with what Justice Kavanas said.

309
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 5: If that's the case, you will have lower courts still

310
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 5: confronted with lawsuits by people who are citizens or legal

311
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 5: permanent presidents. You will have lower courts receiving information about

312
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 5: what ice is done. Have they only relied, for instance,

313
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 5: on racial appearance, ethnic appearance without considering other factors, and

314
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 5: cases will continue to come. What tells me that is

315
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 5: prior experience when this kind of an order comes out. Hey,

316
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 5: let's flood the zone. Let's get in there, let's get everybody,

317
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 5: vacuum them up. Mistakes are going to be made, and

318
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 5: those will end up in a record, and a lower

319
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 5: court will walk along the lines dictated by the Supreme

320
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,119
Speaker 5: Court whatever it decides. But I don't think these cases

321
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 5: will stop coming, just given the volume of activity and

322
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 5: the way the people from ICE are being urged to

323
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,240
Speaker 5: proceed by those in charge.

324
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 1: There's a preliminary injunction hearing schedule for September twenty fourth,

325
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 1: But in light of this Supreme Court decision, can a

326
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: judge is your preliminary injunction at this point?

327
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 5: And whatever it was that the lower court did is stayed,

328
00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 5: So proceedings will not go forward on that level until

329
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 5: there's clarity.

330
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 1: And when will their reclarity?

331
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,479
Speaker 5: Your guess is as good as mine. I don't think

332
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 5: anybody knows. And the more of these emergency shadow docket

333
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 5: cases we get with the half opinions that aren't supposed

334
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 5: to be precedents, but then Justice Gorsuch tells us no,

335
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,560
Speaker 5: the lower court should be looking at them as authoritative.

336
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 5: In the National Student Health case, I mean, confusion is

337
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 5: really sprouting here. It's really really hard for lower courts

338
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 5: and for anybody to know what's happening when and when

339
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 5: we might have some real clarity on any of these issues.

340
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Justice gor such did not like that in the

341
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,880
Speaker 1: space of a few weeks, all these different courts were

342
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 1: not following the Supreme Court's obvious guidance.

343
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. And yet that quote obvious guidance is

344
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 5: coming in a form which has always been regarded as

345
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 5: without presidential value. So for him to say that, I

346
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 5: really think was just out of line. The lower Court

347
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 5: in that instance apologized that he did not mean to

348
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 5: ignore them. But what are you supposed to do? I mean,

349
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 5: I wouldn't want that job right now of trying to

350
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 5: figure out what the Supreme Court is telling me to do.

351
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,439
Speaker 1: And now, apparently in Chicago, local activists said that, you know,

352
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: ICE agents had been targeted in their tactics presenting warrants

353
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: at specific homes or detaining people an immigration court. But

354
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,719
Speaker 1: now they're stopping people on the streets in what seems

355
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: to be a fairly random fashion. So it seems to

356
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 1: be copying what they did in La.

357
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 5: Well, exactly random stops, that kind of roving, random stops,

358
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 5: that's exactly what the lower court judge had in mind.

359
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 5: Those don't have to be unconstitutional in the legal sense,

360
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 5: but they lead to that behavior. That's essentially what the

361
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 5: judge in the Los Angeles case found. And you know,

362
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 5: when you basically tell them it's all up to you.

363
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 5: All you have to do is see somebody who looks

364
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,959
Speaker 5: hispanic and is dressed for low wage work. You know

365
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 5: they're just going to go to town with that. You know

366
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 5: they're going to follow the direction that the Supreme Court

367
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 5: has pointed them. So I hope nobody is surprised to

368
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 5: see that.

369
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: So, David, how big a win is this for the

370
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 1: Trump administration.

371
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 5: Well, it's a win in the sense that a judge

372
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 5: in Los Angeles on the ground ordered this activity stopped

373
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 5: in the form that it was taking, and now the

374
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 5: Supreme Court has said no, it can go forward. It's

375
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 5: not a permanent win, even if we have good indications

376
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 5: that this is the direction that the Supreme Court is

377
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 5: going to go. But again, we're less in a little

378
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 5: confusion about that. What we do know is that now

379
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 5: Ice and whatever law enforcement allies have signed up to

380
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 5: help will go ahead and keep doing things the way

381
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 5: they were in Los Angeles, with these kind of randomized

382
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 5: activities sweeping in lots of people, some of whom are

383
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 5: undocumented and some of whom are not. And I would predict,

384
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 5: without knowing how people think in the White House, that

385
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 5: they're going to applaud that and remind me.

386
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: What happened with the show me your papers in Arizona.

387
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, what happened there is the law passed. It was

388
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 5: a state law, and police started going with that, and

389
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 5: Sheriff Joe, you know, chief among them, and it was

390
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 5: pretty quickly found that he was using ethnic appearance, focusing

391
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 5: on Latino people in ways that violated the Fourth Amendment

392
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 5: and violated the Equal Protection claw. A judge ordered it stopped,

393
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 5: and he went ahead and did it anyway, and he

394
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 5: ended up in criminal contempt. That's why Trump eventually had

395
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 5: to pardon him.

396
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: Now it's coming back to me. Thanks so much, David,

397
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: It's always great to talk to you. That's Professor David

398
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: Harris of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Coming

399
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: up next on The Bloomberg Law Show. President Trump calls

400
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: a birthday note he allegedly sent to Joffree Epstein a

401
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: dead issue, but many Democrats and Republicans I'm June Grosso

402
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg. House Democrats on the committee

403
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: that's looking into the Jeffrey Epstein case have released a

404
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: photo they say is from a compilation of the fiftieth

405
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: birthday messages for Epstein. It's allegedly written and signed by

406
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: President Trump, something the White House has consistently denied. President

407
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: did not write this letter. He did not sign this letter,

408
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: and that's why the President's external legal team is aggressively

409
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: pursuing litigation against the Wall Street Journal and they will

410
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: continue to The compilation, also known as the Birthday Book,

411
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: is from two thousand and three. Trump has said in

412
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: the past that he had a falling out with Epstein

413
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: in the mid two thousands. This comes as lawmakers on

414
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: both sides of the isle are calling for the entirety

415
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: of the files on Jeffrey Epstein's case to be released

416
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: to the public. Joining me is Laura Davison, Washington Deputy

417
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: Bureau Chief. You know, the talk today has been about

418
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: this birthday card to Epstein, allegedly from Trump. Tell us

419
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: how we got here? Yes.

420
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 6: So, this was something that The Wall Street Journal originally

421
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 6: reported on over the summer back in July, and they,

422
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 6: you know, referenced a birthday card where Trump was referring

423
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 6: to a wonderful secret and it included sort of a

424
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 6: suggestive drawing and was signed by the President to Jeffrey

425
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 6: Epstein and given to him for his fiftieth birthday. At

426
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 6: the time, you know, Trump vehemently denied this. All know,

427
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 6: He's team still denies that this is an authentic document

428
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 6: that he that he sent, but we've never had the

429
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 6: image of it. So what's happened over the past couple

430
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 6: of months as the the Epstein story has really become

431
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 6: a wedge issue for Republicans that you know, you have

432
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 6: a group of Republicans including some you know, people who

433
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 6: have been known to be very staunch Trump allies. People

434
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 6: are like Marjorie Taylor Green and James Comer at the

435
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 6: Resite Committee in the House, they have been pushing to

436
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 6: release more documents from Epstein's estate. This actually came to

437
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 6: a head at the at the very end of July

438
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 6: in the House, Mike Johnson sent his members home early

439
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 6: because this is becoming such a hot button political issue.

440
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 6: It did not die over the August recess, and as

441
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 6: lawmakers have come back to Washington this week. They have

442
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 6: subpoenaed and then received documents from Epstein's estate. So this

443
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 6: includes not only this birthday card that they released Democrats

444
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 6: will not released the image of it, but it also

445
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 6: include other papers from his estate, things like entries from

446
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 6: his contact books spanning a couple of decades, and you know,

447
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 6: information about his bank accounts, as well as his last

448
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 6: will and testament. So there was a lot of papers

449
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 6: that have been released. You know, this has been the

450
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 6: piece of information that has you know, certainly gotten the

451
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 6: most buzz. You know, it was released yesterday afternoon and immediately,

452
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 6: i mean Trump's team came out and said that, you know,

453
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 6: it couldn't possible. They say that the signatures don't match.

454
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 6: You know, Trump has said that he doesn't draw, and

455
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 6: so therefore this couldn't be, you know, something he would

456
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 6: have created. I'll note that there are several other drawings

457
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 6: out there in the public domain that he's donated to

458
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 6: various groups. But this has been you know, a sort

459
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 6: of Trump Denny Deny strategy is clearly what his team

460
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 6: is employing here.

461
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: And he said today that this is a dead issue.

462
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: What makes him think that it doesn't.

463
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 6: Seem dead it's certainly not a dead issue if you

464
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 6: ask both Democrats as well as Republicans on the hill

465
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 6: and also you know, out on you know, kind of

466
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 6: among his base. This is something that has also animated

467
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 6: a lot of voters as well. But this is something

468
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 6: that that Trump wants.

469
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: To go away.

470
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 6: And so by branding it a dead issue, he is,

471
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 6: you know, signaling that he does not want to talk

472
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 6: about this. But of course this because he continues to

473
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 6: be a political issue that is dogging him and splitting

474
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 6: the Republican Party.

475
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: I know, I had to look twice or three times

476
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: when I saw the picture of Marjorie Taylor Green being

477
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: hugged by Rocanna. So, I mean that goes to the

478
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: fact that there are Republicans pushing for the release of

479
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: the Epstein, all the Epstein documents.

480
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 4: Reck.

481
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean, so Marjorie Taylor Green, you know, who

482
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 6: is you know, among one of the most vocal and

483
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 6: conservative voices in the House of Representatives, has joined forces

484
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 6: with Rocanna, who is a Democrat from California, you know,

485
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 6: someone who's also thought to sort of be a rising

486
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 6: star within the Democratic Party, you know, seeking higher office

487
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,479
Speaker 6: and higher ambitions. They have joined together in this effort

488
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 6: to get the people Epstein abused to come forward. Marjorie

489
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 6: Taylor Green has said she would come forward and you know,

490
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 6: release more information on the House floor. This is a

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 6: very unlikely duo and on perhaps any other issue they

492
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 6: would not agree. But this just shows that one, this

493
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 6: is something that is really ignited a fire among some Republicans,

494
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 6: and you know, has also been an issue for Democrats,

495
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 6: you know, cynically, you know, some Republicans are saying Democrats

496
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 6: are just using this as a way to embarrass the

497
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 6: president or as a way to you know, kind of

498
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 6: further sew division among the Republican party. But there's no

499
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 6: denying that this has become a political issue, whether or

500
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 6: not Trump wants it to be.

501
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: Explain what's happening with this discharge petition.

502
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 6: So essentially what Thomas Massey, again a Republican who has

503
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 6: actually had sort of his own uh splits with Trump

504
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 6: on on other issues relating tax policy and and government spending,

505
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 6: they had been pushing for this discharge position petition, which

506
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 6: is essentially a way to force a vote on the

507
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 6: House floor. Generally, it is the majority party, you have

508
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 6: the speaker and the majority leader who's determining what things

509
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 6: come up for a vote. But there is a way

510
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 6: that if you get enough support from from fellow UH

511
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 6: House members, that you can force an issue up.

512
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: For a vote.

513
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 6: They have so far not gotten enough support to make

514
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 6: this happen, but if they could, they could, you know,

515
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 6: one put some Republicans in a very tricky situation where

516
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 6: they may you know, politically, uh, you know, sort of

517
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 6: be of two minds of whether they should break with

518
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 6: Trump and vote to release more of these Epstein documents

519
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 6: or uh, if they side with Trump, with the potent

520
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 6: actually you know, anger their own voters by you know,

521
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 6: sort of asking to quell some of these documents from

522
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 6: being released.

523
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: They have something like more than thirty thousand documents. How

524
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: many more are there?

525
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 6: You know, I don't know the total number of documents

526
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 6: that exist, though the House Republicans, you know, they started

527
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 6: releasing these as they've been getting them. There's more to come,

528
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 6: and they you know, a lot of what has been

529
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 6: out there at least and last week that they started

530
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 6: releasing was already in the public domain or was heavily redacted. Essentially,

531
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 6: they want, you know, sort of the full bounty of

532
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 6: documents released without reactions so they can finally, you know,

533
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 6: they say, if they have these kind of get to

534
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 6: the bottom of you know, who Jeffrey Epstein was in

535
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 6: contact and who else might have been implicated, you know,

536
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 6: in you know, his activities with the underage girls.

537
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: So when does this end? I just I see no

538
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: end in sight here.

539
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 6: What is really difficult here is that, you know, Republicans,

540
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 6: at least before Trump was in office, really primed their

541
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 6: base their supporters that there would be some sort of

542
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 6: smoking gun, some answer just as long as they could

543
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 6: get their hands on these documents, that there was a

544
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 6: client list. Pam Bondi said out there that she would

545
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 6: be releasing what is you know, frequently the case in

546
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 6: some of these very messy situations where you have, you know,

547
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 6: you know, someone who is now deceased and you're trying

548
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 6: to piece together a very complicated and you know, perhaps

549
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 6: sordid affair is that there aren't solid and specific answers

550
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 6: that you can get posthumously. So as long as both

551
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 6: Republicans and Democrats continue to be this drum, it will

552
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 6: be an issue whether this continues to be an issue

553
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 6: into the midterms or in twenty twenty eighties that's a

554
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 6: very long way away. Hard to know if that will

555
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 6: continue to be out there, but it's clear that there's

556
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 6: probably not going to be some very decisive answer that's

557
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 6: just going to pop up in a document that will

558
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 6: put this matter to rest.

559
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Laura. That's Washington Deputy Bureau Chief Flora Davison,

560
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

561
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

562
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law PODCA. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

563
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law,

564
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

565
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

566
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg