1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. And before we turn the mics on, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: or actually after we turned the mics on, but before 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: we officially started the episode, we were just talking about, 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: is there a better eighties action movie than Point Break? Um? 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: I mean, arguably there there are some definitely some action 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: pictures that I love more than Point Break. But Point 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: Break has a purity to it, you know, this like this, this, 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: this the weird nobility of this band of nomadic surfers 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: who are also bank robbers. And uh. And then the 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: man who is pursuing them, a man who must become 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: a surfer in order to catch surfers. Because isn't that 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: it meant the old saying in order to catch a surfer, 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: you must become a surfer. Uh, something like that. Patrick 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: Swayzy is the key to the movie. Oh and hey, 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: by the way, if you're out there some kind of 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: pedants saying wait a minute, Point Break didn't come out 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. How are you saying it's the 21 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: best eighties action movie. As we all know, Cinna in 22 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: the cinema world the nineteen eighties lasted until nine. Okay, yeah, 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: I think that's a solid argument. But yeah, this was 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: This was some some really great sways in this film, 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: Like sways. He just has such such a unique charisma 26 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: that he's it's it's like with with the Roadhouse. You know, 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: he's he's able to be just so serious in this 28 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: role and it's you're you're laughing because it is ridiculous, 29 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: but at the same time you're totally buying into this presentation. 30 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: He's giving you absolutely the deep seriousness in the delivery 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: of the lines like pain don't hurt, the fact that 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: he is is trying to commit to this character who's 33 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: like a philosopher bouncer in Roadhouse. Yeah, in Roadhouse, but now, 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, I think he's playing the same character 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: in Point Break, and that in Roadhouse he's a pill 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: asper bouncer. In Point Break, he's the same character. He's 37 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: now become a philosopher surfer slash bank robber. Yeah, and 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: and he's he's tremendous. He just like he eats that 39 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: they've seen he's in Point point Break is a great 40 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: example of one of these eighties again, but it was 41 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: the eighties. Eighties action movies that is so silly in 42 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: a way that like, there are still action movies that 43 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: have a great spirit of silliness that aren't like these unpleasant, 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: self serious action movies. Uh. You know. A good example 45 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: is like the later movies in the Fast and the 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: Furious franchise, which can be a lot of fun, but 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: they are they're in on the joke, like the rock 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: is winking at the camera. It's you know, it's played 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: explicitly for a kind of like wet laughter that like 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: cars can fly and all this, but that's not what's 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: going on in Point Break, Point Break, and and some 52 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: of the movies like it are just as silly as 53 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: the later Fast and the Furious movies, but they're not 54 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: they're not winking at you. They're not in on the joke. Instead, 55 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: they've got Patrick Swayzy who stay in himself. Real seriously, 56 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if part of that is that a film 57 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: like Point Break like building on the in a sense, 58 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: even though it's an eighties and so technically nineties film, 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: it's building on like the grittier uh, like a film 60 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: heritage of the nineteen seventies that preceded it, and where 61 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: whereas nineties films are are proceeding from the eighties films, 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: uh and so forth to where there's just like the 63 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: initial groundwork underneath something like The Fast and the Furious. 64 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: It's just that much sillier and that that and just 65 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: further removed from like nineteen seventies cinema. Wait a minute, 66 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: why are we talking about Point Break? Oh? Yeah, we're 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: talking about it because this episode is about surfing the indertals. 68 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's also not about surfing neandertals, but it 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: is about neandertals. It's about surfer's ear and uh, surfing 70 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: the Andertal's the working title of Point Break that was 71 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: on the script. It it's exactly where my mind went 72 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: when I first read a very recent scientific paper the 73 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: came out about the under tolls and surfers here. But 74 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: but before we get into all that um and we 75 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: may come back two point break. As we proceed again, 76 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: I want to be clear that this episode is not 77 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: really about surfing. It doesn't have that much to do 78 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: with surfing, But I do want to point out the 79 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: ancient origins of this aquatic practice we call surfing. What 80 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: surfing wasn't invented in the nineteen sixties, No, no, no, 81 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: And I was looking at a couple of sources on this, 82 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: but but one of the better ones that came across 83 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: um was a book by Ben R. Finny and James D. 84 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: Houston called Surfing A History of the Ancient Hawaiian Sport. 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: And uh, it's pretty insightful. They point out that that 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: all you need really to surf is a surfer and 87 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: a board and of course waves um or something standing 88 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: in for a board, such as a canoe, or even 89 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: the surfer's own body. I mean, you can body surf. 90 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: What you don't need a surfballfall, you don't need a 91 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: surf suit. Well, as we'll discuss, it can be very helpful, 92 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: especially in the colder waters. Uh. You know, it's just 93 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: it's ultimately and I don't know, have you ever surfed, Joe, 94 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: Have you ever? No, I've I mean very limited water experience. 95 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: I've done like knee boarding, and that's I know that's 96 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: not surfing. I'd say that's the closest to that. But 97 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: you've you've gotten up on your knees on a surfboard, well, 98 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: not on a surfboard on a knee board. I don't 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: know how different they are. I've gotten up on my 100 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: knees on a floating thing that was being towed behind 101 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: a boat. Okay, well a little. It's not close, but 102 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: but it's it's enough. We can we can build from here. 103 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: So I am not a surfer, but I on a 104 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: trip to who I, um, you know, like like twenty 105 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: years ago or something. Um, I was encouraged by a 106 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: friend to go out and try it. This friend had 107 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: surfed before. This is very helpful I find if you 108 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: were going to try to surf, uh, certainly go someone 109 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: who has at least done it once before, but proverably 110 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: somebody who who is more skilled than that. But there 111 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: is this kind of magical moment where you're you're pushing 112 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: the board, You're you're paddling and kicking, you're just going 113 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: as hard and as fast as you can. Uh, and 114 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: then it comes this this almost magical moment where the 115 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: wave catches the board and suddenly the waves propelling the board. 116 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: And this is the point where then you can climb 117 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: up on onto your knees on the board. And then 118 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: then once you you know, have your figure out what 119 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: you're doing. This is where you can rise up on 120 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: both of your feet on the board and you can 121 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: ride the surfboard like a surfer rides a surfboard. And 122 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: it sounds hard. I mean, it's it's it's one of 123 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: those things where I definitely would have given up had 124 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: I not been encouraged to keep doing it, you know, 125 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: to just keep do it again once more. Let's let's 126 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: paddle back and then paddle as hard and fast as 127 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: you can to try and catch this magical moment when 128 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: the when the board catches you. Um yeah, and so 129 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: like once so, all you need is a board, the waves, yourself, 130 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: and then like the patience and or courage to to 131 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: reach that point where you can rise up on the 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: board and become comfortable enough doing so that you can 133 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: manipulate the bird board further. Okay, so of surfing was 134 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: not invented by the beach boys in the mid twentieth century, 135 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: Where does surfing actually come from? Well, as the authors 136 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: at this point out how Hawaii is of course strongly 137 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: associated with surfing, and humans seem to have first arrived 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: at these far flung Polynesian islands by between three hundred 139 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: and four hundred ce. Now, longboards would have developed over time, 140 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: and the author's guess that Hawaiian surfing is ultimately perhaps 141 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: a thousand years old. Yet the principles involved would have 142 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: been known to Pacific islanders and the first pioneers to 143 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: enter the Pacific as far back as two thousand b C. So, um, 144 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those again, it's one of 145 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: those things where the necessary technology, uh, and and and 146 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: ability you know, is not something that were It did 147 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: not exist before thousand years ago, you know, conceivably uh, 148 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, these more ancient cultures knew of the properties involved. 149 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: So we don't know for sure how far back it could, right, 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: And there's also some debate whether a form of stand 151 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: up paddle boarding practiced by the pre Incan civilization in 152 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Peru would have constituted surfing some two thousand years ago. 153 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: Of course, that's another thing you get into, you know, 154 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: discussions of the terminology. Is it truly surfing, is it's 155 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: something else? Are are the people on these paddle boards 156 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: ever reaching that point where the you know, the magic 157 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: of the wave takes over and propels them. But anyway, 158 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: I just I found it. It'll be useful I think 159 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: to just think of that as we proceed, uh, in 160 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: order to also keep it connected to surfing in some way. 161 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: To think of of surfing as this thing that is 162 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: at least a thousand years old, maybe older, and uh 163 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: and ultimately, just based on the technology involved, is not 164 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: all that uh, you know, constrained to a particular portion 165 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: of human time. For all we know dinosaurs for surfing. 166 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: Definitely dinosaurs. Well, no, the dinosaurs were not surfing. But 167 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, to come back to the title of 168 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: the episode, when you start wondering if Neanderthals surfed, there's 169 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: that really no evidence that they did. But when you 170 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: start considering the technology involved, yes, somebody could make a 171 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: case for it, and it would be you know, you 172 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: wouldn't have be able to prove it necessary that we 173 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to disprove it. So what we're gonna 174 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: be talking about though in this episode is more a 175 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: matter of what is known as surfers ear. Okay, Now, 176 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: I remember from when I was a kid, people I 177 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: knew getting swimmers ear. But that was just like ear infections, 178 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: right right, Swimmers ear is is a different thing. Is 179 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: bacterial infection of the outer ear, often caused by trapped water, 180 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: so water or debris, it gets trapped in the ear 181 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: and it can cause an infection. And uh and depending 182 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: on like the state and condition of your your ear canals. Uh, 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: some people are more uh you know, have more tendants, 184 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 1: more a greater tendency to uh to get swimmers eer 185 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: than other people. I remember people with swimmers ear being 186 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: treated by just getting like ethyl alcohol pulled in there 187 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: or maybe I don't know what kind of some kind 188 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: of alcohol alcohol uh poured in their ear. Yeah, there's 189 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: just a stest standard swimmer's ear um droplets you can get. 190 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: I use some, like just the other day because I 191 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: swim fairly regularly. But uh. But but then also not 192 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: to be confused with the drops you would get for 193 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: a full blown ear infection. Like this is where yeah, 194 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: everything is actually getting like more and more painful in 195 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: your ear, and that may require uh, some more advanced drops. 196 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: But that's not really what we're talking about here. What 197 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: we're talking about here is exostosis of the external auditory 198 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: canal or external auditory exostosis or e a E, also 199 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: known as surfer's ear. And then the game, Yeah, and 200 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: it's it's a condition. It's a condition that affects both 201 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: modern humans and our our prehistoric ancestors. So what is 202 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: E A E? Well, these are dense bony growths that 203 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: that that grow that slowly extend into the auditory ear canal. 204 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Whoa bony growths in the ear canal? Now please read 205 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: sure me Robert that these growths are not like spiny 206 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, no, No, these are rounded growths um that 207 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: you know. Basically if you look at it, if you 208 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: look at an image of this, it looks like they're 209 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: bony growths on you know, underneath the skin on either 210 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: side that are like that are that are pushing in, 211 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: causing kind of a cave in, gradual cave in of 212 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: the auditory canal. That still doesn't sound good. So the 213 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: question is what causes them? Well, this is where it 214 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: gets weird. It is uh, we basically still have a 215 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: lot of questions about surfers here. But the widely accepted 216 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: hypothesis is the is the aquatic hypothesis, and that is 217 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: that it is caused by repeated exposure to cold water 218 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: or or in some cases cold wind, but especially cold water, 219 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: and it's typically encountered in cold watered in cold water foraging. 220 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: Among traditional and ancient peoples as well as among cold 221 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: water sports practice today, such as surfing. Coming back to 222 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: a question of what is required for surfing, and you 223 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: asked about body suits and wet suits or dry suits, 224 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and and a part of this 225 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: is has to do with the fact that, in addition 226 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: to having to deal with, you know, potentially being scraped 227 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: up against things you don't want your body scraped against, 228 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: you're often also surfing in colder environments and uh, and 229 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: you want to protect your body from the cold. But 230 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: cold water is is also an irritant to the inner 231 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: ear and uh, and it is the most commonly observed 232 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: irritant that leads to surfer's ear and repeated irritation leads 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: to this growth. Now, wait a minute, it sounded like 234 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: you were alluding to their being potential multiple potential explanations, right, Well, 235 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: this is I mean, well, this is the primary explanation. 236 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: Um and I did not encounter another explanation that that 237 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: was really presented. Basically, it's just there are some mysteries 238 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: remain about exactly how it occurs. Uh and uh. Anybody 239 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: that's discussing surfers here like is sticking to the equatic 240 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: hypothesis here, uh, and then certainly the evidence bears it 241 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: out that it's I mean, you look at at where 242 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: surfers here occurs, and it occurs in the ears of 243 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: individuals who are engaging in a lot of cold water activity, 244 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: be it foraging, you know, pearl diving, that sort of thing, 245 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: or surfing. But you know, other forms of irritation can 246 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: can can technically cause it, uh, because it's just gonna 247 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: result in tissue inflammation in the inner ear. Now that's 248 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: gonna happen after just like you have a couple of 249 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: bad days in cold water and you get these growths. No, no, no, 250 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: it's uh, this is something that's going to develop over 251 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: the years. So typically you see it manifest in a 252 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: person during their like their mid to late thirties or 253 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: possibly in their forties, lining up with the timeline of 254 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 1: their exposure to the irritation. It could potentially occur earlier though, 255 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: but like this is like when you think about like 256 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: someone's prime surfing years and at what point they've been 257 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: surfing for uh, you know, for say twenty years that 258 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Uh, it's gonna line up with this, 259 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: So you're more likely to see it in people who 260 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in the water over a 261 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: long period of their lives. Right, Yeah, they're spending a 262 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: lot of time in cold water, like they're going surfing 263 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: a lot, where they're going pearl diving a lot with 264 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: with a uh, you know, a fair degree of regularity. Well, 265 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: so it would seem like having bony growths protruding into 266 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: your ear canal would not be a good thing. Right, 267 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: So for for the for the longest, it's not really 268 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: an issue, but you know, it'll reach the point where 269 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: you'll have potential complications from your Essentially you're closing ear canals. 270 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: That includes decreased hearing capability uh and increased likelihood of 271 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: blockage and infection due to trapped ear wax or debris. 272 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: And you know, you see generally you're looking at a 273 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: five to eight millimeter diameter ear canal, but this can 274 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: be narrowed to almost total blockage over time by surfers. 275 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: Ere am I imagining that there's kind of a cultural 276 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: stereotype where the you know, the the archetype, the surfer dude, 277 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: the surfer person uh is saying like, what would you 278 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: say A lot? Is that? Is that just my imagination 279 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: or does that exist as part of the stereotype. UM. 280 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there's certain certainly a crossover between like the 281 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: surfer stereotype and sort of the the dude and sort 282 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: of hippie freewheeling stereotype. I don't know if lack of 283 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: hearing is really part of it, but it would make 284 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: sense that that it would be right because based on 285 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: what we're discussing here, I mean, this is this is 286 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: where you're going to see some potential hearing loss due 287 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: to exposure to the cold water. Now. An important thing 288 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: to stress though, is that we only discovered surfers here 289 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: in the last century or so. I believe the first 290 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: report on it was a German paper by Welker h 291 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: Uber in eighteen sixty four. And uh, and so you know, 292 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: we haven't had that long to like really study it 293 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: and figure out what's what the deal is with it, 294 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: or even to figure out how, you know, ways to 295 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: treat it or how to to prevent it. But the 296 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: most obvious ways to prevent it are, of course, to 297 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: avoid regular cold water activities, UM, which may not be 298 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: an option or or desirable for you if if you're 299 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: really into surfing or you depend on some sort of 300 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: cold water foraging. But I've read that cold water surfers 301 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: are six more likely to experience it than warm water surfers, 302 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: and sounds like a significant effect. Now, you can also 303 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: wear varying forms of ear protection that will help, ranging 304 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: from special plugs to cat special caps to go over 305 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: your head in your ear, to certain varieties of wet suits. 306 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: But if you reach the point where where the bony 307 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: protrusions have grown to the point that it's an issue, 308 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: doctors can also remove the expoptosis with a surgical drill there. 309 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: I think two different procedures, two different ways of going 310 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: in there and drilling back the bone the bony growths. 311 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: And the good news is that if if you have 312 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: this done, you'll probably you really probably only have to 313 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: do it once because generally, given the timeline of of 314 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: them growing back, they can grow act, but you probably 315 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: won't reach that second point where you'll need to have 316 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: them removed. All right, looks like we need to take 317 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: a break, But when we come back, we will ask 318 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: the question of why the these spurs and the ears? 319 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. All right, So we've been talking 320 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: about surfer's ear, or the idea of external auditory exostoses 321 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: or E A E. And these are these bone like 322 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: protrusions into the ear canal that seemed to pop up 323 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: in people who spend a lot of their lives in 324 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: cold water. If you're constantly irritating the ear canal with 325 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: cold water, these things are likely to pop up. Now, 326 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: I guess we haven't addressed yet why they occur. Well, 327 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: if you'll think back to the Bible, you have Cane 328 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: and Able and uh Able you know was was really 329 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: into staying on the land. Cane was a big surfer, 330 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: So God punish it now. Um has nothing to do 331 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: with that. Now, Now this is another area where it's 332 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of open questions about it now, 333 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: so some are you it's essentially like bone spurs, you know, 334 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: which these occur either due to these occur you know, 335 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: due to constant irritation or stress, generally in the feet 336 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: where you have these bony um. You know, protrusions that 337 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: are forming in the foot could be quite painful. So 338 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: one idea is that it's basically that irritation leading to 339 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: growth leading to symptoms. And there's not a lot else 340 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: beyond that in terms of why, Like what is the reason, 341 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, because it's like asking what is what is 342 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: the reason for bone spurs? What is you know, what 343 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: are the reason for for various ailments that afflict us 344 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: due to the things that we insist on doing due 345 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: to our you know, our our human desire to to 346 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: ride waves or climb mountains to ridiculous heights, that sort 347 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: of thing. But there is one area where you will 348 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: see an argument for a purpose behind all that. Unfortunately, 349 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: it's in aquatic eight theory. Oh yeah, So aquatic ape 350 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: theory has come up on the show before, and I 351 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: think we've talked about how this is one of those 352 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: theories that's like that's sticky. It's sticky beyond its explanatory power. 353 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: And it's hard to know exactly why some some hypotheses 354 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: are like this, but I think it tends to be 355 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: the ones that are just the most uh, that offered 356 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: the most totalizing explanation for the most phenomena through the 357 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: most interesting image. And it does that. It but it 358 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: is also widely rejected by science. Yeah, and we can 359 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: talk about some reasons for that in a minute. Yeah, 360 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: but it does continue to come up, and you know, 361 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: in fact, it was it was recently it brought up 362 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: and by none other than Sir David Attenborough himself. No, 363 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: he apparently on a BBC four um series he talked 364 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: about it and he there's something that criticized him for, 365 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: you know, bringing up, you know, a redundant scientific theory. Well, 366 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna slam. I mean, you know, we talk 367 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: about theories that are not accepted because you know, it's 368 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: okay to talk about things. I agree, Yeah, you don't 369 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: have to think something is correct to talk about it. 370 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: But it sounds like he was sort of advocating it. Well, 371 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, he has a history of being interested in it. 372 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: I read that he also organized the symposium on the 373 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: topic back in But you know, it's like you said, 374 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: we discuss theories and hypotheses on this show that that 375 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: are you know, sometimes definitely under the category of of 376 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: rejected or unprovable. Uh. And I think my my opinion 377 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: is that it is okay to discuss these It's informative 378 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: to discuss these ideas, you know, as long as you're 379 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: approaching them with the right attitude and you're not like, 380 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're not seeking to to prove them, you know, 381 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: in in your discussion of the of of of what 382 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: is unprovable, right, You're not becoming an evangelist for something 383 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: based on bad evidence. Uh. Now, So for a brief 384 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: refresh in case you don't recall us talking about this 385 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: theory in the past, the short version is, I think 386 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: that the original idea was that in nineteen sixty a 387 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: marine biologist named Alistair already proposed this idea that we 388 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: had an aquatic primate ancestor maybe four to seven million 389 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: years ago, and he proposed this in this article a 390 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: new scientist. I think he also gave a big talk 391 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: about this. I think the idea is that us having 392 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: a an aquatic or semi aquatic primate ancestor could explain 393 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: many interesting morphological features of humans that distinguish us from 394 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: our closest relatives like the other great apes. And there 395 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: are a lot of examples of this, like why do 396 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: we have less body hair than the other great apes? 397 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Why do we have this, you know, smoother skin. And 398 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: his idea was, well, maybe we lost body hair and 399 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: got smooth skin to streamline us for swimming, to reduce 400 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: drag in the water. Um, why do we have a 401 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: thicker layer of subcutaneous fat uh than some of the 402 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: other than I think all the other great apes, and 403 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: his idea here is, well, maybe that's like what we 404 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: see in marine mammals that they use for water insulation 405 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: to help keep their bodies warm. Why do we stand 406 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: upright instead of walking on all fours. The ideas well, 407 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: maybe we had to wade in the shallows and that 408 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: got us standing up. And while it is an interesting idea, 409 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: and I think you know Hardy it was it was 410 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: clever for Hardy to come up with this. I think 411 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: we now have better explanations for a lot of these 412 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: interesting differences between humans and the other gray apes. And 413 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: there's also no direct physical evidence for the aquatic ape theory. 414 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: But to bring it back to the context here is this. 415 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: You're saying that some enthusiasts of the aquatic ape theory 416 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: would believe that our ear canals or features of our 417 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: ear canals would seem to fit in with that list 418 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: of supposed aquatic adaptations. Yeah, I've read e a positioned 419 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: as possible evidence. You know that it's a narrowing of 420 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: the ear canals and keeping with the narrowing of ear 421 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: canals and aquatic mammals, because true enough, the ear canals 422 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: and toothed whales are narrow and clogged with debris and wax. 423 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: In baileeen whale ear canals are plugged with a waxy cap. Now, 424 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, they're obvious problems with this because it's not like, 425 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's not some sort of Lamarchian scenario going 426 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: on here where surfers starts surfing and then their ears 427 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: mutate into into weird forms. It's not like the children 428 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: of surfers have have permanently plugged ear holes or anything. 429 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: But maybe the idea would be that we evolved the 430 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: the adaptation that gives our bodies the capability to adapt 431 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: to repeated water exploit or or we would have developed 432 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: the genetic predisposition for for surfers here, and we do 433 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: have a genetic predisposition for surfers here. Uh that that's 434 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: that seems to be the case. But um, I think 435 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: it's it's a stretch to tie it in with this 436 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: uh largely refuted theory. Yeah, well, I mean I want 437 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: to say again, not that we accept the theory or 438 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: would advocate it, but in the defense of this theory, 439 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it is interesting to consider, and there's nothing 440 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: inherently implausible about the situation. It imagines no nor insidious. 441 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: It's not like an anti science theory, right, right, right, 442 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: It's just so there's nothing implausible about like prehistoric primates 443 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: migrating to a partially aquatic lifestyle and gaining biological adaptations 444 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 1: in the process. It happened with other mammals, right, so 445 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: it's not hard to believe that a similar thing could have, 446 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: in principle happened with primates. But the question is, just 447 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: is that what the evidence we have today's supports, And 448 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: I think most experts, for good reasons, think the answer 449 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: is no. U. Most experts today believe the evidence for 450 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: humans having an aquatic ape ancestor doesn't hold up very well. Again, 451 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: there's zero direct evidence of it, so we don't have 452 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: like remains of an aquatic ancestor that just doesn't exist. 453 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: So you're you're having to hypothesize a sort of like 454 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: lost period that we haven't found direct evidence of yet, 455 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: but just reason backwards from traits that exist later. But 456 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: there's a basic question here. I can't I came across 457 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: this on from the writings of some paleo anthropologists, and 458 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm sorry now I'm forgetting the the person's name. But 459 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: here here's the basic answer. If all these traits that 460 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: are they're trying to explain through the aquatic ape theory 461 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: were acquired through an aquatic lifestyle that happened maybe four 462 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: to seven million years ago, why were all the aquatic 463 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: traits retained for millions of years after our ancestors supposedly 464 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: moved back to dry land. You would you would expect, 465 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: like then that these traits would be lost because now 466 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: they'd be vestigil. Yeah, we'd grow all that lovely hair back, 467 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: unless you pose it like, well, actually, it turned out 468 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: once you moved back on the land, there was a 469 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: good reason for retaining that trait. Now now it stayed 470 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: because it served some other survival purpose. But then you 471 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: could just short circuit the aquatic ape situation and say, well, 472 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: maybe we just got those traits because it served some 473 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: other purpose. So, like, like coming back to the the 474 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: hair theory of like the less hair you have, the 475 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: more you're able to show off that parasite free skin. Right, 476 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: that's a common theory. I mean, so there are a 477 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: couple of major theories that exist now to explain why 478 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: humans ancestors lost a lot of the body hair they 479 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: originally had, and we don't know the answer but some 480 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: fairly plausible answers seem to be that that it helped 481 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: with with heat dispersal uh, and that it was maybe 482 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: a very good sexual selection signal. It it showed off, 483 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: I don't have any lice on me because look how 484 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: little hair I have. And it turns out that I 485 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: think there are better explanations like that, And again we 486 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: don't know them for sure, but they seem like very plausible, 487 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: fitting with the evidence, explanations for all of these traits 488 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: that are answered through the aquatic ape theory. So why 489 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: do we stand up on two legs? We don't know 490 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: the answer, but a good candidate for that seems to 491 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: be that we were using our hands for things we 492 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: adapted to have to want to have free hands uh 493 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: and other things like Oh. A common one that's cited 494 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: for the aquatic ap hypothesis is that why do we 495 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: have voluntary control over our breath? Right? We wouldn't need 496 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: that less we were trying to be able to dive 497 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: underwater to get you know, marine mollusks or something is prey. 498 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: But what if we evolved voluntary control of the breath 499 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: because we needed to speak right, to speak to seeing, 500 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, to to communicate with each other with each other, 501 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: that these are activities that require control of breath. Yeah, so, 502 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: I guess my main takeaway is that, you know, I 503 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: don't want to slam aquatic ape too hard. It's not 504 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: like an odious theory or something. It's just that I 505 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: think it's something that is. It's unfortunately sticky, and there 506 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: are better hypotheses more in line with the actual evidence. 507 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: We have to explain the same morphological features that people 508 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: appeal to the aquatic ape theory to explain. All right, well, 509 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: on that note, let's take one more break. But when 510 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: we come back, we will we'll get to some more 511 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: good stuff discussing surfer's ear in human remains but also 512 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: in the remains of Neanderthals. Thank alright, we're back. So 513 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: I think all this stuff about surfer's ear is fascinating 514 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: in and of itself. But the the extra cool thing 515 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: here is that surfer's ear is detectable in human remains, right, 516 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: because it's not just soft flesh. They're like bony protroser. Yes, 517 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: so we can we can look to coastal humans of 518 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: the past and judge to what degree they were interacting 519 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: with cold water, and then we can also based on that, 520 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: determine how such acts were divided between the genders based 521 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: on the skeletal remains. For instance, in December of researchers 522 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: from Washington University in St. Louis discovered skeletal evidence of 523 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: surfer's ear in a pre Columbian Panamanian village. They were 524 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: looking at a hundred and twenty five skulls from nine 525 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: burial sites, and they found seven cases in males, one 526 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: in female. So this is this is interesting. You think 527 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: of Panama and you think of you You You may think 528 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: of warmer waters, but the water in the Gulf of 529 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: Panama is actually quite cold between January and April. And 530 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: the researchers believe that the divers here, that the remains 531 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: that they found were likely specialized pearl divers UH probably 532 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: going after stuff like like mother of pearl or um 533 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: or the orange and purple pearls that derived from two 534 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: species of thorny oysters. These were These were popular in 535 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: the region and you also find these artifacts among the 536 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: very dead in these grave sites. Also, Spanish explorers would 537 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: later record the activities of such pearl divers as well 538 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: as you know, staying there. They were trained since childhood 539 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: to dive down four fathoms that's twenty four ft or 540 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: seven point three meters deep. My ears are hurt and 541 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: just thinking about that. Uh. So you know, surface certainly 542 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: like these would have been individuals diving down into those 543 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: cold waters of training from an early age and developing 544 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: these bony protrusions that would that were then detectable. Um 545 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, you know ages later when we look back 546 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: and try and figure out how they lived. So you know, 547 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: it's a little things like that that are insightful about it. 548 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: But of course we're talking about the recent past. We're 549 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: talking about human remain you know, Almo Sapiens, is there 550 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: is there a reason you brought up Neandertells early on. 551 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: I feel like, yes, we've got a connection here, and 552 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: that's because there's a very recent study and this one 553 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: came from Washington University. Uh, Eric trink Us at All, 554 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: author to paper External auditory exostosis among Western Eurasian late 555 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: Middle and Late Pleistocene humans, and this was published in 556 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: Plos one. So, uh, just a refresher about the Neanderthals 557 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: who we've we've talked about on the show before and 558 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: we'll continue to talk about because there's always some sort 559 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: of cool Neanderthal related story coming out. Uh. They are 560 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: our closest extinct relatives. They lived in Eurasia two hundred 561 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: thousand to thirty thousand years ago. We don't know exactly 562 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: what happened to the Neanderthals. They likely transitioned from they 563 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: were out likely originally translition transition from Homo antecessor to 564 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: Homo neanderthal insis a hundred and fifty thousand years ago, 565 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: and then they went extinct thirty thousand years ago. Now 566 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: we're continuing to learn a great deal about them, how 567 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: they differed from a physically, but also what their culture 568 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: may have consisted of. They were ideal cold weather hominids, 569 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: shorter and stockier than Homo sapiens. They had large brains, 570 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: but it seems that their brains were were far more 571 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: suited for intense visual processing rather than social processing, which 572 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: would have been needed in the lower light northern climates 573 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: of Europe. Homo sapiens, on the other hand, are ultimately 574 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: the evolutionary project product of higher light regions of Africa. 575 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: So enter this new study from Eric Trinkaus. At All, 576 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: they examined well preserved ear canals and the remains of 577 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: seventy seven ancient humans, including Neanderthals and early modern humans 578 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: of the Middle too late Plicetocene epoch of western Eurasia. 579 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: So the rate of Homo Sapiens surfers ear was more 580 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: or less standard. But half of the twenty three Neanderthals 581 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: sampled had E A and their cases were mild to severe, 582 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: and we're seeing at roughly twice us the frequency of 583 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: Homo Sapiens examples. So the obvious explanation would be that 584 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: Neanderthals simply foraged in cold waters more than Homo sapiens, 585 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: and that might well have been part of it. Certainly 586 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: it highlights that the water, the cold waters were part 587 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: of their foraging, uh, you know, realm. But it also 588 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: could mean that they just had an even greater genetic 589 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: predisposition for E A. Because again, humans have a pre 590 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: disposition for E A. Uh, and we we see that 591 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: in modern human genetics as well. So here's just a 592 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: quick quote from from drink House about the study. Quote. 593 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: An exceptionally high frequency of external auditory exotosis among Neanderthals 594 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: and a more modest level among high latitude earlier Upper Paleolithic, 595 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: modern humans indicate a higher frequency of aquatic resource exploitation 596 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: among both groups of humans than is suggested by the 597 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: archaeological record. In particular, it reinforces the foraging abilities and 598 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 1: resource diversity of the Neanderthals. Well, that's interesting. So it's 599 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,239 Speaker 1: saying that this is an indication that maybe humans and 600 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: especially Neanderthals of the time, we're spending more time foraging 601 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: in the water than other evidence in the archaeological record 602 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: would predict. Just another example of possible evidence for for 603 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: Neanderthal exploitation of marine resources for for food or whatever. 604 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: Is A is a paper I was looking at from 605 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: P and A s from two thousand and eight by 606 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: Stringer at all that found is I was looking at 607 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: the Gibraltar region and the authors said that what we 608 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: find indications that Neanderthals had knowledge of the geographic distribution 609 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: and behavior of their prey. We present here the evidence 610 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: from Gibraltar sites showing that Middle Paleolithic humans exploited not 611 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: only mollusks, but also seals, dolphins, and fish through a 612 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: wide spread of time. Dolphins and seals. So we got 613 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: Neanderthals of the period potentially hunting marine mammals. Not quite wailing, 614 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: but a modest form of marine mammal hunting. And yeah, 615 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: and then in the process of doing it, developing surfers 616 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: here possibly to the point of of deafness. And and 617 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: by the way, there's a there's another paper and paper. 618 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: It was also from drink Us from Seen, in which 619 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: he and his team found an old, older Neanderthal from 620 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: about fifty thousand years ago who had suffered multiple injuries 621 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: and become deaf. As such, he argued that the elder 622 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: must have relied on the help of others to avoid 623 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: prey and survive well into his forties. So, you know, 624 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: sort of like sandwiching these two separate studies together, it 625 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: like it kind of paints this picture, you know, of 626 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: these you know, these these these Neanderthals of foraging in 627 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: the cold waters, diving down for mala's, going after these 628 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: uh uh, these other marine creatures, and in doing so, 629 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: like the the the older members of the society, at 630 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: least the ones that are that are engaged in the 631 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: aquatic foraging, uh you know, going death and then having 632 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: to depend on other members of their society to survive. 633 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: So I know you've been picturing them as Patrick Swayze, 634 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: the entire time. Well no, but but for some reason, 635 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: when I first read the headline, like last week or 636 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: the week before, my my mind instantly went to point break. 637 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: It is the surfing movie. Uh par excellence. Wait what 638 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: about what about Surf Ninja's. I've never seen Surf Ninjas 639 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: can't vouch for it, I have anything. I guess we'll 640 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: have to come back and check out Surf ninja Is. 641 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: I just looked it up. Oh it has Rob Schneider 642 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: in it. One don't know, uh not that I can 643 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: see right here, and unletus he's a cameo. Okay, it's 644 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: goot Leslie Nielsen, tone Loke, Rob Schneider, Ernie Reyes Jr. 645 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: And All Star Gas. All right, well we'll have to 646 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: leave it there. But you know again, Neanderthal's continue to 647 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: be a topic of interest, and they're just there's always 648 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: so many. There are always so many great, uh potentially 649 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: interesting studies that are coming out about them. So I'm 650 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: sure we'll come back to the world at the end 651 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: at Alls in the future on Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 652 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other 653 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over 654 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: to Stuff to blow your Mind dot com. You can 655 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: also find our other show, Invention at invention pod dot com. UH. 656 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: That's our our journey through human techno history looking at 657 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: various inventions. We haven't done one on the surfboard, but 658 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: that's exactly the kind of thing we could do because 659 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: we try, and we've been trying to cover a wide 660 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: variety of inventions, from like major recent technologies to ancient 661 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: in inventions that are lost to time, from you know, 662 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: from the the advanced and the and and the to 663 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: the simple, from the obvious, uh, to the to the 664 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: far less obvious. So check out that show if you 665 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: haven't already, and if you want to support these shows 666 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: that we're putting together for you, the best thing you 667 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: can do is tell your friends about us. Wherever you 668 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: get the podcast, rate and review us, leave us some 669 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: stars and a nice comment that helps us out a lot. 670 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Maya Cole. 671 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: If you'd like to get in touch with us with 672 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic 673 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hello, you can email 674 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 675 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart 676 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: Radios How stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 677 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 678 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.