WEBVTT - Made, Not Born: How Grit Helps Us Change 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:23.716 Pushkin Happy New Year's Slight change listeners. New Year's resolutions 0:00:23.756 --> 0:00:27.236 can feel impossible to keep, but in the last few years, 0:00:27.276 --> 0:00:30.116 I've made it a point to internalize research insights from 0:00:30.116 --> 0:00:33.516 behavioral science, and they've helped me set smarter goals and 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:36.676 actually stick to them. And so we've decided to go 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:39.676 back into the archives and share interviews with experts who 0:00:39.716 --> 0:00:43.276 delve into some useful strategies for making change. They'll give 0:00:43.276 --> 0:00:45.996 you the practical tools and motivation you need to not 0:00:46.036 --> 0:00:49.436 only set great goals, but to sustain your commitments well 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:52.796 into twenty twenty three. In our final episode of this 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:57.356 special New Year's miniseries, will hear from psychologist Angela Duckworth, 0:00:57.716 --> 0:01:01.276 who teaches us how to cultivate more grit, a power 0:01:01.356 --> 0:01:05.316 combo of passion and perseverance. Plus she offers advice on 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:07.676 how we can resist some of the daily distractions that 0:01:07.756 --> 0:01:10.356 often get in the way of reach our goals and 0:01:10.516 --> 0:01:14.716 spoiler alert, it will not involve self control. As always, 0:01:14.756 --> 0:01:17.596 I'd love to hear which insights resonate most with you. 0:01:17.596 --> 0:01:20.516 You can connect with me on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 0:01:30.916 --> 0:01:34.916 What makes a great graphic designer? You know? Same as 0:01:34.996 --> 0:01:38.076 like a great ballerina, but also the same as like 0:01:38.076 --> 0:01:40.876 a world class mathematician, but also the same as a 0:01:40.956 --> 0:01:44.836 civic activists. Like what do they have in common? According 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:49.516 to psychologist Angela Duckworth, the answer is grit, a power 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:54.516 combo of passion and perseverance. Angela says natural ability and 0:01:54.636 --> 0:01:58.076 access to opportunity will, of course give you a head start, 0:01:58.436 --> 0:02:00.836 but they alone won't get you to the finish line, 0:02:01.516 --> 0:02:04.716 and focusing too much on natural ability can be counterproductive 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:08.436 because it's something we can't change about ourselves. So when 0:02:08.476 --> 0:02:11.716 it comes to taching our big goals, Angela wants us 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:14.756 to reorient our focus to the thing we can change, 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:17.916 which is the sustained effort we pour into the things 0:02:17.956 --> 0:02:20.716 we care about. When we say like, oh, well, you 0:02:20.756 --> 0:02:23.436 know she or he's a genius and I'm not. I mean, 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:26.436 it really does let you off the hook, right, Like 0:02:26.516 --> 0:02:30.156 if they have something you don't have, some magical X factor, 0:02:30.356 --> 0:02:33.436 right then you don't have any obligation to wake up 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:36.196 at five in the morning and train and to like, 0:02:36.556 --> 0:02:40.436 you know, do all the hard things. On today's episode, 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:43.916 Angela Duckworth teaches us how to cultivate grit channel that 0:02:43.996 --> 0:02:47.116 grit and resist some of the temptations that often get 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:51.316 in the way of achieving success. I'm Maya Shunker, and 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:54.196 this is a slight change of plans, a show about 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:56.996 who we are and who we become in the face 0:02:57.116 --> 0:03:12.756 of a big change. Angela is a true expert on grit. 0:03:13.116 --> 0:03:15.676 She's been studying the topic for over a decade now 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:19.436 as a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. She's also 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:22.956 the recipient of the McArthur Genius Grant, and her ted 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:26.356 talk on Passion and Perseverance has garnered over twenty five 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:30.436 million views. I started at our conversation by diving into 0:03:30.476 --> 0:03:34.476 the basics, starting with the definition of grit. I define 0:03:34.556 --> 0:03:40.276 grit as the combination of passion and perseverance over the 0:03:40.556 --> 0:03:43.236 very long term. So that doesn't mean that like every 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:45.556 day you're doing the exact same thing, but you have 0:03:45.596 --> 0:03:48.836 a kind of overall ambition or goal, you know, like 0:03:48.876 --> 0:03:52.436 I want to help people live better lives through behavioral science. 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:54.596 You know, I want to be the best pediatrician that 0:03:54.676 --> 0:03:56.756 I can be. You know, I want to be a 0:03:56.796 --> 0:04:00.476 great musician, whatever it is. And there's also a perseverance 0:04:00.596 --> 0:04:04.076 like working really hard, taking feedback and learning. I mean 0:04:04.116 --> 0:04:08.116 really trying to stay in a game and work hard 0:04:08.196 --> 0:04:11.236 at that game in a resilient way over time, so 0:04:11.356 --> 0:04:15.476 passion and perseverance for long term goals. When I was 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:19.156 a kid, I remember feeling like it was all about 0:04:19.236 --> 0:04:23.516 natural talent. Like in music school, everyone was so quick 0:04:23.596 --> 0:04:28.436 to try to identify the latest prodigy. Absolutely, I remember 0:04:28.516 --> 0:04:31.996 there was this violinist Rachel. Not that I still remember you, Rachel, 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:34.596 but you were amazing. Hi Rachel, Hi Rachel. I won't 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:36.316 say your last name because I don't embarrass you, but 0:04:36.636 --> 0:04:39.076 she was a few years younger than me, and she 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:42.916 was such a gifted violinist. I mean, I felt like 0:04:43.436 --> 0:04:46.436 everything that was hard for me seemed to come easily 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:51.276 to her. And rather than internalizing, oh, I guess this 0:04:51.316 --> 0:04:53.276 is a lesson to me that I need to work harder, 0:04:53.916 --> 0:04:57.716 I actually just felt despondent, right. I felt like, Okay, 0:04:57.756 --> 0:04:59.836 well should I just give up? Because I don't have it. 0:04:59.956 --> 0:05:02.436 I don't have what it takes, and so the only 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:05.316 way forward was for me to just keep practicing. But 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:08.556 I can't say that wasn't without some suffering and mental 0:05:08.676 --> 0:05:11.316 anguish about the fact that I always felt like I 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:14.676 was a little behind, And so I feel so passionately 0:05:14.756 --> 0:05:18.716 about evangelizing your research in this space because I feel 0:05:18.756 --> 0:05:21.636 like I fell victim to aspects of it as a child. Right, 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:24.476 it actually hurt my psychology. Do you do you know 0:05:24.556 --> 0:05:27.836 the research of Chia Jung? Say you wrote about her 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:30.716 in your book, right, yeah, okay, right, so exactly, and 0:05:30.836 --> 0:05:34.436 I wrote about how Chio was a musician like you, right, 0:05:34.476 --> 0:05:39.716 and how she I think, you know, given her personal 0:05:39.756 --> 0:05:42.716 experience with music, I mean, I think that music in particular, Right, 0:05:42.716 --> 0:05:46.276 there are certain domains where, you know, people talk about prodigies, 0:05:46.316 --> 0:05:49.476 and you know, there are YouTube videos of prodigies and 0:05:49.516 --> 0:05:51.436 really is amazing. And you see a kid who's five, 0:05:51.876 --> 0:05:54.036 you know, do something that it just makes you think, 0:05:54.076 --> 0:05:57.876 like that must be something that's born, not made, and 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:02.636 those people are special and and like you, she really felt, 0:06:02.676 --> 0:06:05.996 I mean so impassionate about like, hey, you know, come 0:06:06.036 --> 0:06:09.476 see the thousands of hours of practice, and you won't 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:12.876 use the word natural, you know, so flippantly, And I'll 0:06:12.916 --> 0:06:15.436 just say that, you know, it's not that anybody, or 0:06:15.476 --> 0:06:18.356 at least that I would say that we're all equally talented. 0:06:18.436 --> 0:06:20.956 I mean, I think that would be right, like ridiculous 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:23.996 and I think the key is is that you know, 0:06:24.276 --> 0:06:26.476 when you're young and you're trying to figure out like 0:06:26.476 --> 0:06:28.396 should I keep going or should I not keep going? 0:06:28.476 --> 0:06:31.076 Or Frankly, I guess at any age, if you just 0:06:31.276 --> 0:06:35.036 obsess about these differences in things that you can't change, 0:06:35.116 --> 0:06:38.796 I do think it can overshadow you know, the things 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:41.436 that you can change, right, and and all those thousands 0:06:41.476 --> 0:06:44.116 of hours of practice that that you put in, that 0:06:44.236 --> 0:06:47.156 Shea put in, you know, those are like not very 0:06:47.196 --> 0:06:50.156 fun to watch on YouTube. Frankly, yeah, you know, I 0:06:50.396 --> 0:06:53.876 want to hear Maria Angela. Why why are we such 0:06:53.916 --> 0:06:56.556 suckers for natural ability? Like I was talking with my 0:06:56.636 --> 0:06:59.316 husband the other night, and he was saying, in high school, 0:07:00.436 --> 0:07:03.716 you're really cool if you got good grades without trying 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:05.796 at all. And by the way, I mean really cool 0:07:05.876 --> 0:07:10.276 in very nerdy circles. I just to clarify, just to clarify, 0:07:10.356 --> 0:07:12.796 just to clarify. But it's like, oh, he got to 0:07:12.876 --> 0:07:15.556 be plus without studying, Like imagine if he had studied, 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:18.276 you know, And there's this this is aura around people 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:22.396 who don't try hard. What in our human behavior gives 0:07:22.516 --> 0:07:26.316 rise to this fascination with natural ability? Well, I can 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:30.076 only speculate. But people do have a preference for people 0:07:30.156 --> 0:07:33.436 that we consider it to be naturals, and we prefer 0:07:33.476 --> 0:07:36.316 them over strivers, even when we know that they have 0:07:36.316 --> 0:07:39.516 accomplished the same thing. And you know, I remember reading 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:41.756 what Nietzsche wrote about this, and he said, you know, 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:44.636 when we consider that other people are naturals, but we aren't, 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:47.476 right when we say like, oh, well, you know she 0:07:47.676 --> 0:07:49.676 or he's a genius and I'm not. I mean, it 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:53.076 really does like let you off the hook, right, Like 0:07:53.156 --> 0:07:57.156 if they have something, you don't have some magical X factor, 0:07:57.356 --> 0:08:00.436 right then you don't have any obligation to wake up 0:08:00.436 --> 0:08:03.236 at five in the morning and and train and to like, 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:05.436 you know, do all the hard things. I think there's 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:08.316 at least a part of it that's like that. And 0:08:08.556 --> 0:08:11.036 you know, there's thing kind of fun about thinking that 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:14.116 people are like demigods or like we tell little kids like, oh, 0:08:14.156 --> 0:08:18.116 you're a child prodigy in piano or painting. I think 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:20.916 there's just something fun and mystical about it too, right, 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:23.756 Like we like to think they're they're just qualitatively different. 0:08:23.996 --> 0:08:27.196 I do think though, that if we can, you know, 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:31.316 till things such that the honor and the glory goes 0:08:31.356 --> 0:08:33.756 to people who have earned what they do in a 0:08:33.876 --> 0:08:39.116 very transparent way that's maybe not as romantic. Then we 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.596 will be doing a great service to our kids, because 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:45.756 I mean, I really don't know anybody who has become 0:08:45.876 --> 0:08:49.196 world class and economics or at being a political leader 0:08:50.556 --> 0:08:53.316 or anything else. You know, a classroom teacher, a nurse 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:56.236 like without you know, just years and years of effort. 0:08:56.996 --> 0:08:59.596 So at this point in our conversation, Angela has made 0:08:59.596 --> 0:09:03.196 a strong argument for the importance of grit. But it's 0:09:03.236 --> 0:09:05.916 grit like talent, one of those things you've either got 0:09:06.036 --> 0:09:09.276 or you don't like. In addition to raw talent, did 0:09:09.356 --> 0:09:13.436 Rachel the violinist also have more grit than me? Okay, 0:09:13.516 --> 0:09:16.396 she probably did that. That's because she's Rachel, and so 0:09:16.436 --> 0:09:19.636 of course she did. But here's the good news. We 0:09:19.836 --> 0:09:23.996 can cultivate grit. Angela says there are four key things 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:26.556 we can all do in our lives to build some grit. 0:09:27.436 --> 0:09:31.396 Number one, find out what interests you. People who are 0:09:31.396 --> 0:09:34.556 really gritty have this intrinsic interest and curiosity about what 0:09:34.556 --> 0:09:37.716 they're doing, So you can, you know, start a book club. 0:09:37.796 --> 0:09:39.916 If you're at work in a job and you're like, hey, 0:09:39.996 --> 0:09:42.076 I don't learn a lot. You can, you know, start 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:44.116 listening to a podcast like this one that you know 0:09:44.156 --> 0:09:47.116 really engages your mind, etc. But interest, I think is 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:51.836 the first seed of passion. You know, interests are you know, 0:09:51.916 --> 0:09:54.156 what naturally grabs our attention. I think that's the best 0:09:54.196 --> 0:09:56.436 definition of what an interest is. It's like, you know, 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:59.636 without effort or without will, you just want to think 0:09:59.676 --> 0:10:01.996 about it. Yeah, And one thing you've said is that 0:10:02.676 --> 0:10:06.076 our interests actually remain relatively stable over the course of 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:08.876 our lives and even our personalities. And so one way 0:10:08.876 --> 0:10:11.836 we and identify what we're naturally interested in is to 0:10:11.916 --> 0:10:14.756 look back at our childhood and try and remember what 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:16.916 it is that let us up or made us tick. 0:10:17.276 --> 0:10:19.396 I do want to say, man, it's important to know that, 0:10:19.436 --> 0:10:21.996 you know, interests evolved, so they're not static. So it's 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:23.956 not like, you know, if you're interested in something when 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:27.116 you're fourteen, that's exactly what you'll be interested in when 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:29.716 you're fifty four. But I do think actually, if you 0:10:29.916 --> 0:10:32.476 introspect a little bit and you remember what you were 0:10:32.516 --> 0:10:35.956 like in high school, right, this is during the period 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:40.356 of adolescence when interests tend to get more specific and 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:43.356 differentiated and if you think back enough. I think back, 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:46.636 you know, to my own sixteen and seventeen year old self. 0:10:46.676 --> 0:10:48.836 What was I interested in? Well, I signed up for 0:10:48.956 --> 0:10:52.716 a summer school class in psychology, and I signed up 0:10:52.756 --> 0:10:55.956 for a summer school class in nonfiction writing. Right, I 0:10:55.996 --> 0:10:59.356 didn't pick chemistry, I didn't pick philosophy, I didn't pick 0:10:59.436 --> 0:11:01.876 up So I think in some ways, you know, what 0:11:01.956 --> 0:11:03.796 do I do now? Well, I do a lot of 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:06.876 psychology and I do a lot of nonfiction writing. So 0:11:07.436 --> 0:11:10.716 I do think that trip down memory lane can sometimes 0:11:10.796 --> 0:11:13.956 just you know, remind us in a way of the things. 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:17.676 But another tip for you if you don't want to 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:20.716 just introspect, is like literally ask the people that you 0:11:21.716 --> 0:11:24.396 that you love most. You know, if I asked my husband, 0:11:24.436 --> 0:11:26.876 like Jason, what am I interested in? I mean, it 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:29.076 sounds like a crazy thing to ask, like shouldn't I know? 0:11:29.396 --> 0:11:31.436 But he will tell me what he observes. He's like, well, 0:11:31.436 --> 0:11:33.356 when I see you read the newspaper, you're always reading 0:11:33.356 --> 0:11:36.436 the food section, vows you know, Like He's like, you 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:38.396 just when we went to visit houses, when we were 0:11:38.396 --> 0:11:42.196 shopping for houses, instead of asking about the plumbing and 0:11:42.316 --> 0:11:45.996 the mortgage and the abatement. I was like, so then 0:11:46.036 --> 0:11:48.796 they got divorced, and then what happened the relt are 0:11:48.876 --> 0:11:50.476 was like, well and then and my husband was like 0:11:50.916 --> 0:11:53.156 and this has nothing to do with this house. And 0:11:53.196 --> 0:11:55.236 I'm like, I know, but it's so interesting. I just 0:11:55.276 --> 0:11:58.036 want to know. So that's me and human nature. So 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:01.076 take a trip down memory lane. But also ask some 0:12:01.116 --> 0:12:03.036 people who know you and love you. You know, what 0:12:03.076 --> 0:12:04.516 do you think I'm interested in? And I think you 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:06.876 might learn something? Yeah, oh my gosh, you and I 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:09.316 are totally the same. That's always my interest too. I 0:12:09.396 --> 0:12:12.236 must not buy a house to get a terrible bathway. 0:12:13.196 --> 0:12:16.756 Angela's second tip for building grit once you found an interest, 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:21.396 go all in, engage in focus, practice, and set clear goals. 0:12:22.356 --> 0:12:24.836 Step three is all about thinking about the big picture. 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:28.396 Angela says to ask yourself, why are you doing the 0:12:28.396 --> 0:12:31.956 thing you're doing, what's your sense of purpose? And then, 0:12:31.996 --> 0:12:36.276 finally step four, cultivate a growth mindset, which is the 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:38.236 idea that we should think about our mind as a 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:42.596 muscle that can grow with hard work and perseverance. Basically 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:47.836 being optimistic about how people's abilities can change and how 0:12:47.876 --> 0:12:51.236 we're not necessarily as fixed as sometimes we're tempted to 0:12:51.236 --> 0:12:54.756 think we are. And it's something that you know, I'm 0:12:54.756 --> 0:12:58.036 still working on. I saw him slip into a fixed 0:12:58.036 --> 0:13:01.196 mindset sometimes, and I try to let my growth mindset 0:13:01.276 --> 0:13:05.556 voice have it say. One person who inspires Angela to 0:13:05.636 --> 0:13:08.596 keep her growth mindset front and center is a former 0:13:08.676 --> 0:13:12.196 student of hers, David Long. So, David Long I met 0:13:12.476 --> 0:13:16.836 years ago when METSI more than twenty maybe now. I 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:19.956 was a high school math teacher in the San Francisco 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:23.356 Public schools and David was in my class. And I 0:13:23.476 --> 0:13:26.276 noticed from you know, the first week of school that 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:29.916 this kid, David really liked math, and frankly was pretty talented, 0:13:29.956 --> 0:13:32.876 but apparently not talented enough to have made it past 0:13:32.916 --> 0:13:35.316 the cut score that would have placed him in his 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:38.156 freshman year in a higher level math class. So I 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:40.796 marched David over to the department share whose name was Liz, 0:13:41.036 --> 0:13:43.436 and I say, Liz, like, you know, a grievous error 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:45.676 has been made. This kid should be in the higher 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:48.876 level math class. And Liz is amazing, and she moved 0:13:48.876 --> 0:13:52.236 things around. So what happened next, Well, David graduated from 0:13:52.276 --> 0:13:54.916 high school and then he went on to get a 0:13:54.916 --> 0:14:00.196 PhD in aerospace engineering as somebody who basically uses math 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:03.636 every day. And so I think the lesson of David 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:07.316 is that it's very easy to make a mistake, you know, 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:10.596 about somebody's potential. You know, like oh they're SAT scores 0:14:10.676 --> 0:14:12.276 not high enough. You know, it's like, oh, you're not 0:14:12.316 --> 0:14:14.956 gifted and talented. But these other kids, they are gifted 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:16.876 and talented. You know, these kids they're going to go 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:19.916 to AP calculus. Those kids they're not. And we do 0:14:19.916 --> 0:14:22.236 it all the time, right, And I think if we 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:27.756 can restructure education in a way that doesn't have these like, um, 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:30.676 you know, problems of off ramps and on ramps where 0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:33.476 we're like sorting kids and frankly, we're doing it very 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:36.556 early in their life. And if we could say instead, hey, 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:39.436 if you have the motivation and if with support you 0:14:39.436 --> 0:14:43.236 can keep up in these classes, like the door is open. 0:14:43.356 --> 0:14:44.956 I mean, I think that would be a much better 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:47.396 way to run things. Yeah, And one thing I loved 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:49.916 about David's story is that when he was moved to 0:14:49.916 --> 0:14:53.076 the advanced class and initially wasn't scoring very well on 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:55.476 those early exams, right getting a C and then getting 0:14:55.476 --> 0:14:57.796 a D, he he brush it off. He's like, I 0:14:57.836 --> 0:15:00.316 wasn't happy about it, but you know he didn't He 0:15:00.356 --> 0:15:03.516 wasn't demoralized. He didn't give up. He just kept working harder. 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:06.956 You know that knife edge, right, you get a d 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:09.916 or a ce. My own daughter, Amanda, when she was 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:12.396 maybe a little younger than David, I think she was 0:15:12.436 --> 0:15:15.956 still in middle school, but she had tested into this 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:18.956 more advanced track and so she, you know, she settles 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:21.276 in and you know, she's getting her first exams back. 0:15:21.356 --> 0:15:24.396 I think she failed. I mean failed. She's gonna see 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:28.236 like failed, I believe, like the first few exams, and 0:15:28.316 --> 0:15:31.036 I had to confess to you, Maya. I was like, oh, 0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:33.236 maybe this isn't for you. I mean I looked at 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:35.876 this math curriculum and I was like, holy smokes, like 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:38.116 this is really hard. You get like all the way 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:41.036 through BC calculus before the end of junior year. I 0:15:41.076 --> 0:15:43.796 was like, why don't you just not do this hard thing? 0:15:44.076 --> 0:15:46.236 And my husband was such a better parent than me. 0:15:46.356 --> 0:15:48.916 He you know, worked with her, and I remember the 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:51.116 stacks of scrap paper they had. I mean, they just 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:53.516 put in so much work, and I think for him 0:15:53.556 --> 0:15:56.036 it was very important that at that young age that 0:15:56.156 --> 0:15:59.196 she not encode. I can't do this like I'm not 0:15:59.276 --> 0:16:01.836 smart enough, Like I'm a girl, I'm whatever, but like 0:16:02.236 --> 0:16:04.556 I can't do this. So he didn't really care that she, 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:07.436 you know, became a mathematician. But I will tell you 0:16:07.476 --> 0:16:11.156 what the epilogue of that story is. Amanda's twenty She 0:16:11.676 --> 0:16:16.076 is on track to being a math major at Harvard Um. 0:16:16.116 --> 0:16:18.876 You know, she would not say that things come easily 0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:20.836 to her, like she would not say that like in 0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:24.396 her math classes, you know, you know she's the fastest 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:27.036 or that, but but she does love math. And I 0:16:27.076 --> 0:16:29.956 think those early experiences where it was a threat to 0:16:30.036 --> 0:16:33.476 her you know, self image, but then that she had 0:16:33.516 --> 0:16:35.476 a loving parent who I wish I could say it 0:16:35.516 --> 0:16:37.716 was me, but it was it was my you know, 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:40.516 my better half. I just think that's really important. And 0:16:40.556 --> 0:16:42.716 I know that one of the things that you have worked, 0:16:42.796 --> 0:16:45.716 you know, you know, so hard on his equity, and 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:48.276 I think that, like, you know, one of the very 0:16:48.356 --> 0:16:51.196 deep issues in this country is like how many kids 0:16:51.476 --> 0:16:54.236 have somebody in their life who's going to do what 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:56.556 my husband did for my daughter, or do what I 0:16:56.636 --> 0:16:58.756 had time to do with David and his you know, 0:16:58.836 --> 0:17:01.236 his other teachers, and you know how much you know, 0:17:01.436 --> 0:17:03.556 wasted potential is there, and how many kids are walking 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:06.516 around thinking they're not that smart because you know, they 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:08.676 haven't had the opportunity to see what they can do. 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:14.396 We'll be back in a moment that the slight change 0:17:14.396 --> 0:17:29.316 of plants. We're back with Angela Duckworth. He's teaching us 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:31.956 about the science of grit and how it can help 0:17:31.996 --> 0:17:35.636 us achieve our goals. Once we've cultivated grit, the next 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:37.876 step is to make sure we channel whatever grit we 0:17:37.956 --> 0:17:40.756 do have in the right way, and this is where 0:17:40.876 --> 0:17:45.236 deliberate practice comes into play. Deliberate practice is a term 0:17:45.276 --> 0:17:48.996 that was coined by Andres Eriksson, who was a great 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:52.476 cognitive psychologist. I mean really he was the world expert 0:17:52.876 --> 0:17:56.796 on world experts and really believe strongly. He always, you know, 0:17:56.796 --> 0:18:00.276 would talk about growing up in Sweden in a family 0:18:00.556 --> 0:18:04.236 that you know shared with him the worldview that like honors, 0:18:04.276 --> 0:18:07.196 you know, if you're really interested in something and you 0:18:07.236 --> 0:18:09.796 are willing to work hard at it, like who would 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:11.756 be the one to say that you couldn't do great things? 0:18:12.076 --> 0:18:14.716 So he grew up without a kind of talent myth 0:18:14.796 --> 0:18:17.316 in his own personal life, but then he encountered it 0:18:17.356 --> 0:18:19.356 as he you know, would then move on into like 0:18:19.636 --> 0:18:22.916 you know, wider circles, and so a lot of his 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:26.556 research was on the practice element of excellence. In fact, 0:18:26.596 --> 0:18:28.636 you could argue, like all of his research in some 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:32.436 ways was that there are let's say three elements, but 0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:34.116 if you if you count the fact that you have 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:36.276 to do them again and again in repetition, then you 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:40.196 could say, therefore, of deliberate practice, one is that when 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:43.276 you're practicing something right, and we're all practicing something right, 0:18:43.276 --> 0:18:44.916 you know you want to make a better on lith 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:47.036 you want to be a better podcaster, you want to 0:18:47.036 --> 0:18:49.716 be a better writer, better leader, better mother, or whatever 0:18:49.876 --> 0:18:51.556 whatever it is that you're working on, you have to 0:18:51.596 --> 0:18:55.436 actually fractionate your overall performance into like tiny parts. And 0:18:55.716 --> 0:18:58.076 what experts do is they only work at one thing 0:18:58.076 --> 0:18:59.876 at a time. So this is kind of laser like 0:18:59.916 --> 0:19:04.516 focus on one small element of their overall performance. Right. Yeah, 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:08.676 I love this notion of sub goals and it reminds 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:12.076 me when I was working in government in public policy, 0:19:12.596 --> 0:19:15.156 there was research coming out on how we can motivate 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:18.116 folks to seek employment after they lost their jobs, So 0:19:18.156 --> 0:19:21.756 folks that are on unemployment insurance, and it's very psychologically 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:25.676 daunting to say my goal is to find work, and 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:29.436 so parsing it into these micro steps, these more manageable steps, 0:19:29.476 --> 0:19:32.196 like Tomorrow, I'm going to go get a business suit. Friday, 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:35.236 I'm going to edit the top half of my CV. Saturday, 0:19:35.276 --> 0:19:38.676 I'm going to reach out to three different employers. You know, 0:19:39.036 --> 0:19:42.916 that type of technique was so effective and accelerating people's 0:19:42.956 --> 0:19:46.156 success when it came to finding work. You know, whether 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:49.036 it's learning to walk again or whether to write you know, 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:52.476 how to write a book? You know, what does anything 0:19:52.476 --> 0:19:55.196 that's daunting to you, like applying to college, you know, 0:19:55.516 --> 0:19:59.756 getting your driver's license. You know the secret to doing 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:02.036 those things is to not do the big thing, but 0:20:02.156 --> 0:20:04.956 to make it into manageable small things. And if you 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:07.916 ask me how small, I would say, you can't go 0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:11.036 too small. And and that is because like, if you 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:13.996 do accomplish the tiny, tiny goal that you set, guess what, 0:20:14.116 --> 0:20:17.396 you just have more confidence going into the next one. Yeah. 0:20:17.476 --> 0:20:20.836 So we've talked about articulating specific goals versus general goals. 0:20:21.476 --> 0:20:25.636 What's next after that second element is that you really 0:20:25.676 --> 0:20:28.756 have to focus one hundred percent. I mean you have 0:20:28.876 --> 0:20:31.916 to try. You know, it's like the opposite of multitasking. 0:20:32.556 --> 0:20:35.676 And I know this sounds kind of simple and straightforward 0:20:35.716 --> 0:20:39.036 and obvious, but just as an indication of what honors means. 0:20:39.076 --> 0:20:43.076 I mean, really, the top performers that he tended to 0:20:43.076 --> 0:20:45.876 study would only do true deliberate practice at this level 0:20:45.876 --> 0:20:48.636 of focus and concentration for a few hours a day. 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:51.596 Was seemingly not possible to do much more than that, 0:20:51.676 --> 0:20:54.596 even at the peak of your powers. So that's full 0:20:54.636 --> 0:20:58.356 concentration and effort. And then the third element is feedback. 0:20:58.796 --> 0:21:02.396 And feedback is that gift that you know, we don't 0:21:02.396 --> 0:21:04.316 want to unwrap, right, And I think one of the 0:21:04.396 --> 0:21:07.556 remarkable things about these world class performers, you know, much 0:21:07.556 --> 0:21:10.556 more than their gold medals or there's statues or their trophies, 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:15.196 is that they are remarkably open to and even eager 0:21:15.316 --> 0:21:20.716 for feedback, especially when it's critical. And that's the remarkable thing. So, so, 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:23.836 do those three things have a precise goal? What exactly 0:21:23.876 --> 0:21:25.756 it is that you're working on. Work on that with 0:21:25.756 --> 0:21:30.276 one hundred percent focus and attention, get feedback usually immediately 0:21:30.436 --> 0:21:34.636 is the best, and then after processing that feedback, repeat 0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:38.916 the cycle. Okay, so now we've got our four strategies 0:21:38.916 --> 0:21:41.956 for building grit, and a deeper understanding of what it 0:21:41.996 --> 0:21:46.356 means to really practice. So we're all set right, not quite, 0:21:46.956 --> 0:21:50.316 And that's because temptations of all kinds creep into our 0:21:50.396 --> 0:21:53.676 daily lives and prevent us from acting on these recommendations. 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:58.116 And so Angela being Angela has four tips to help 0:21:58.156 --> 0:22:01.676 us reel in the temptations. My number one trick for 0:22:01.716 --> 0:22:06.516 this is is to use your situation for you, not 0:22:06.596 --> 0:22:08.796