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Speaker 1: I'm Talia Shlanger and you're listening to here's the thing

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Speaker 1: from my heart radio. The netflix show love on the

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Speaker 1: spectrum is a reality dating series, but it is totally

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Speaker 1: different than anything you might have come to expect from

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Speaker 1: the crowded and, let's be honest, often staged world of

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Speaker 1: reality dating shows. The series is full of heart and

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Speaker 1: promise and it features people who don't often get the spotlight.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kaylin, I'm twenty four years old and

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Speaker 1: I'm single and I'm looking for a boyfriend. Why do

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Speaker 1: you want to find them? I don't want to die alone.

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Speaker 1: Being around people is straining, but I don't like being alone.

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Speaker 1: I like to be with my friends, I like to

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Speaker 1: be with my family. I don't like to be really alone,

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Speaker 1: just day to day. So I think having love, having

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Speaker 1: a boyfriend, would really be helpful. I basically have every

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Speaker 1: learning disability you could have, um dyslexia, dyscalcula, dysgraphy, a

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Speaker 1: D H D and autism. It makes a lot of

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Speaker 1: the different aspects of my life challenging. That's Kaylin partlow,

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Speaker 1: one of the participants, in a clip from the show.

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Speaker 1: The subjects looking for love are all on different parts

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Speaker 1: of the autism spectrum and throughout the series you see

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Speaker 1: them navigate the pressures, struggles and successes of dating life

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Speaker 1: through Swiping, speed dating and, yes, even ghosting. There are

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Speaker 1: already two seasons of the original Australian version of love

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Speaker 1: on the spectrum. The American version premiered earlier this year.

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Speaker 1: Just this month it won three Emmy Awards, including best

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Speaker 1: unstructured reality series. Coming up I'll talk with the show's

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Speaker 1: relationship expert, Jennifer Cook, who is herself on the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: but first I spoke with Creator, producer and director Keyan o'clary,

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Speaker 1: and participant Kalin partlow, who is also an autism therapist

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Speaker 1: and advocate. I was curious about how partlow felt this

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Speaker 1: series compared with the traditional portrayals of autism we've seen

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Speaker 1: in the media. Yeah, I think it's been pretty consistent

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Speaker 1: in terms of portrayal. In the media we see a

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Speaker 1: lot of genius stereotypes, people with incredibly high I Q s,

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Speaker 1: people who are classified as savants, and they're usually men

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Speaker 1: and that's just not the reality. For their the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of people on the spectrum, we on average, do

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Speaker 1: not have genius level. I use it but yeah, in

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Speaker 1: the media they portray autism as somebody who is a savant,

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Speaker 1: who is a genius, who has these special abilities above

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Speaker 1: other people, and that's just not the reality that most

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Speaker 1: of us face. Klin, I know you answer this question

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Speaker 1: in the show, but for our purposes here and for

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Speaker 1: people who haven't watched love on the spectrum yet, do

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Speaker 1: you mind answering it again? What does autism mean for you?

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Speaker 1: For me it means I've always kind of been a loner,

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Speaker 1: and not by choice. It's always been kind of difficult

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Speaker 1: to connect to people um and kind of form those

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Speaker 1: relationships and then maintain those relationships. I think when I

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Speaker 1: was younger I was missing a lot of those skills

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Speaker 1: and now, as an adult, I'm missing a lot of opportunities. Sometimes. Um,

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Speaker 1: it also means sensory sensitivities and a lot of routines. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so when you first heard about this show, love on

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Speaker 1: the spectrum, and the idea that it would be a

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Speaker 1: spectrum of people with a range of presentations of autism,

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Speaker 1: what was your reaction to the idea of this show? Well,

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Speaker 1: I loved the Australian version. I love both seasons. I

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Speaker 1: loved the diversity that they tried to accumulate for everybody

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Speaker 1: in the series and even the amount of like orientations

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Speaker 1: that they had. Not Everybody was straight, and I thought

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Speaker 1: that was really important. Yeah, for sure. And Kian, I

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Speaker 1: want to know you. You've said that after doing two

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Speaker 1: seasons of the show in Australia, you've said that it

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Speaker 1: was important for you to bring the show to the US.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Well, look, it was just a great

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Speaker 1: opportunity to make a show that we'll potentially reach and

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Speaker 1: even to audience, you know, a bigger audience. So it

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Speaker 1: was just a great opportunity to keep exploring that, the

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Speaker 1: diversity of the spectrum, but not just reaching a water

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Speaker 1: audience but exploring even further. You know, everybody is so different.

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Speaker 1: We're not fictionalizing anything, we're not over dramatizing things, we're

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Speaker 1: not editing things to look at a certain way. So

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Speaker 1: it's just a great way for people to get to

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Speaker 1: know people and hopefully to have some fun in the

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Speaker 1: process and enjoy the experience of, you know, watching their

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Speaker 1: stories unfauld. You know, we also get messages from people

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Speaker 1: on the spectrum themselves, families, people, just saying what a

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Speaker 1: difference it's made to them. and to their lives, which

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Speaker 1: is great. So it's just great to be able to

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Speaker 1: have this platform. When people see a story of someone

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Speaker 1: like Kalin. You know, she was so important to include

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Speaker 1: because Kalin presents in a way that people are very

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Speaker 1: surprised that she's on the spectrum, and that's really important

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Speaker 1: because it's that invisible thing, you know. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: people tend to equate high functioning artism to easy artism,

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Speaker 1: and it's not that it might be easier for those

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Speaker 1: around me, but it doesn't necessarily mean that my experience

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Speaker 1: is easy. I have a lot of language and so

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Speaker 1: it can kind of throw people off to learn that

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Speaker 1: I have a disability that can impact my communication just

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Speaker 1: because my expressive language is so good. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: account for the social anxiety that I'm feeling and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't certainly account for the isolation that I've experienced as

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Speaker 1: a result of having a brain that is wired differently.

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Speaker 1: Is there a term that you prefer to high functioning

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Speaker 1: that you like people to use? Sometimes, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to describe somebody, as you know this person is autistic,

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Speaker 1: rather than using higher low functioning as descriptors, you might

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Speaker 1: say instead they're autistic their language abled, or they're autistic

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Speaker 1: and they have language deficits or language impairments or language difficulties,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of a mouthful, but it might give

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Speaker 1: you a better idea of the person that they're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Key and I was very curious about how you went

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Speaker 1: about finding blind dates for people or deciding, deciding whether

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Speaker 1: even to draw on the neurodivergent or her atypical communities

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Speaker 1: when you're setting up individual participants. Maybe you can see

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Speaker 1: a bit more about that. Yeah, well, I guess the

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Speaker 1: one element of the series that is, I guess, or constructed,

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Speaker 1: or the one element of the series that we do

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Speaker 1: as producers, kind of create, is that we find matches

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Speaker 1: for people, and that's mainly because if we were just

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Speaker 1: following someone on their dating journey, not a lot might

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Speaker 1: happen in some cases, for example so so bod who

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Speaker 1: had never been on a date in his entire life.

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Speaker 1: So he was kind of really hoping we could help

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Speaker 1: him with that. His family were hoping we could really

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Speaker 1: help him with that. So I guess in terms of

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Speaker 1: how we look for people and how we find people,

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Speaker 1: it's very different depending on the person. So it's all

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Speaker 1: about getting to know people really well. And then we

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Speaker 1: have our production team and as producers we kind of

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Speaker 1: actors matchmakers as best we can. The main thing we

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Speaker 1: try and do is match people that we think will

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Speaker 1: at least have something in common get along. Even if

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Speaker 1: something romantic doesn't happen, they might find a friend. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of what we hope for. And Yeah, we we

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Speaker 1: find people in old different sorts of ways, again, depending

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Speaker 1: on who the person is. That way trying to match. Calin,

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Speaker 1: still hoping to find someone, but you know, there's always time. Calin,

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Speaker 1: you've had a lot of interest since the show, I believe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have had a lot. I can't say that that

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Speaker 1: interest has always been reciprocated, but there has been quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of interest. Bet So, there was quite a

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Speaker 1: different technique for you. We saw you go to a

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Speaker 1: speed dating event to meet potential dates. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: me through that? What was that experience like for you? Well,

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Speaker 1: I had never been speed dating before, so I wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure what to expect, but once I started I realized

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Speaker 1: how efficient it was in terms of time. Um, you

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Speaker 1: kind of get to know people very quickly and so

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't know everything about them, but you know

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Speaker 1: at the very least if you're interested in seeing them again,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought that was a really efficient way

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Speaker 1: to date and honestly, more people should try it. We also,

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Speaker 1: I mean we also saw you do some advent chers

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Speaker 1: in online dating. Can you speak a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what that experience is like? Online dating? Online dating has

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Speaker 1: not been fruitful and I don't know that it will

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Speaker 1: be even given time. It's been a couple of years

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Speaker 1: now and it's just not gone very well. And I

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell you why, I because I'm sure there are

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Speaker 1: plenty of Nice guys out there. It's just finding them

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Speaker 1: and connecting with them is the hard part. Yes, you

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Speaker 1: were quite funny and talking on the series about a

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Speaker 1: particular trend that you noticed in many men's photos, and

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Speaker 1: I think anybody who's listening who's done online dating can

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Speaker 1: relate to this. The dead animals, and particularly the dead fish.

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Speaker 1: Every time, and you know I said it, somebody asked

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Speaker 1: me this the other day. I said, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: this might be a little gross, but is the fish

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Speaker 1: meant to be like a euphemism for something? Is it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to represent something? Because there's just so many people

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Speaker 1: who are holding up the fish. There's got to be

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Speaker 1: some significance either that or my other thought was, is

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Speaker 1: it that they're showing that they are a good provider,

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Speaker 1: because we go to the grocery store? So that's great,

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Speaker 1: but it's not very necessary. That would definitely be a

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Speaker 1: more appealing photo full grocery cart. And Look, I think shop.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic. That's a life skill. Lots of people don't

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Speaker 1: know how to do that, but I'm not particularly impressed

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Speaker 1: by fishing. So, Caitlin, I know you answered this question

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Speaker 1: on the show, but I'm going to ask it to

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Speaker 1: you because I think it sets up a good context

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Speaker 1: for the way that we're talking about this. What does

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Speaker 1: autism mean for you in a dating context? I think

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Speaker 1: for dating it means that I'm more careful and maybe

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Speaker 1: picky or choosy about who I am spending time with.

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Speaker 1: Um I've had a couple experiences where I've allocated my

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Speaker 1: time towards somebody only to find out that they're not

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Speaker 1: somebody who is compassionate to people with disabilities, even before

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Speaker 1: finding out that I am a person with a disability

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Speaker 1: and that's really important to me. So me aside if

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Speaker 1: they cannot have compassion or understanding for other people, disabled

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Speaker 1: or otherwise. That's not somebody I'm gonna want to spend

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Speaker 1: my time with. So it's made me more picky, I think,

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Speaker 1: in that regard, and it's also kind of harder to

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Speaker 1: relate and to connect to people just because my hobbies

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Speaker 1: and interests have never been what's been considered typical or

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Speaker 1: normal Um, and even if they were something that was

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Speaker 1: typical or normal, they would be more intense than what

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Speaker 1: would be normally expected of somebody. So that can make

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Speaker 1: it harder to connect with other people. That's really interesting

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Speaker 1: that there would be a period of time where you

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Speaker 1: get to know somebody's general attitudes towards people with maybe

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Speaker 1: neuro divergence without even knowing that the person that they're

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Speaker 1: on a date with, who is you, is part of

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Speaker 1: that community. How do you decide when to share that

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Speaker 1: part of yourself with somebody that you're getting to know?

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Speaker 1: I think I've had the, you know, the experience of

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Speaker 1: being on the show and it has made me more

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Speaker 1: confident in disclosing that information to people and not being

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Speaker 1: afraid just because I think I know how to handle it.

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Speaker 1: Now I've come into so much contact with success that

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Speaker 1: I'm able to do it and not feel so nervous

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Speaker 1: about it. But otherwise I would say that I don't

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Speaker 1: usually lead with that information. I try to get to

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Speaker 1: know them first and if it's relevant to the conversation

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Speaker 1: or if I think it will be useful for some reason,

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Speaker 1: then I'll share that, but usually I'll wait until I

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Speaker 1: get a little bit closer to them. Yeah, Kien, can

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Speaker 1: you tell me a bit about your approach as a

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Speaker 1: filmmaker to capture these really intimate moments but also, I guess,

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Speaker 1: not be in the way of what was unfolding? MHMM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the way I like to work we just try

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Speaker 1: to have a really small footprints and I think that

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Speaker 1: just really helps to, I guess, make people feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: and for people to sometimes forget the way around and

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Speaker 1: to be able to capture things that are really truthful

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Speaker 1: and honest. When my filming dates, we we try and

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Speaker 1: hang quite far back and use longer lenses, so we're

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Speaker 1: just trying to be as low impact as possible and

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Speaker 1: I think that helps to tell those stories in a

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Speaker 1: in a way that feels real. Kalen, I've seen some

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Speaker 1: of your social media and that people have commented publicly

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Speaker 1: on your post to tell you how much your participation

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Speaker 1: means to them. Can you say a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what the reaction has been like for you in particular?

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Speaker 1: I kind of knew that it was gonna be I

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Speaker 1: would gain some followers and people would message, but I

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Speaker 1: never could have predicted the amount of people who are

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Speaker 1: so impressed and so inspired by it. Um and, more importantly,

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Speaker 1: the people that relate to me. I kind of thought

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Speaker 1: I was an outlier in terms of just where my

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Speaker 1: specific deficits are in terms of relating to autism and

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Speaker 1: the things that I struggle with. I kind of thought

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Speaker 1: I was a bit unusual. You know, I've seen bits

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Speaker 1: and pieces of myself in other autistic people around me,

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Speaker 1: but I've never met somebody who was truly like me,

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Speaker 1: if that makes sense, especially in an adult. And so

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Speaker 1: seeing that on social media, getting messages from other autistic

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Speaker 1: women saying I relate to you for all these reasons

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Speaker 1: and giving all the specific information that they have in

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Speaker 1: common with me after seeing my story. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know the word for it, flabbercacid, surprise, Um, incurridge, all

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Speaker 1: of those. You know, it's been wonderful. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be pretty cool. I mean it's amazing. What were you

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Speaker 1: hoping would happen when you participated in the show in

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Speaker 1: the first place in terms of how autism is represented

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Speaker 1: on screen? I was hoping, kind of like keyns talked

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Speaker 1: about before, to bring some awareness to just the different

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Speaker 1: parts of the spectrum and how it can show up

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Speaker 1: differently for different people. That aside, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: just expecting to have a fun you know, I've never

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Speaker 1: experienced anything like this. Most people probably haven't experienced anything

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Speaker 1: like this, and so I was just hoping for kind

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Speaker 1: of a new experience, to do something fun Um, and

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Speaker 1: it's met and exceeded my expectations. From love on the spectrum.

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Speaker 1: That's director Kian o'clary and participant Kalin partlow. If you

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Speaker 1: love conversations about real people's stories, check out our episode

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Speaker 1: with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns. I would just suggest, too,

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Speaker 1: that these big themes, these big stories, the constituent building blocks,

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Speaker 1: are these intimate, bottom up stories, more often than not,

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Speaker 1: of people that you don't know, and so, like William Blake,

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Speaker 1: we're finding the world in a grain of sand and

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Speaker 1: that changes, particularizes, literally atomizes, the way you tell these stories.

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Speaker 1: So it isn't just the thirty thousand feet great man

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Speaker 1: history of the presidency in generals and wars. It's something

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Speaker 1: that is bottom up and you and you touch on

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Speaker 1: the African American experience, which is in almost every film

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Speaker 1: we've made. And when you learn from so called ordinary people,

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Speaker 1: then it sort of mitigates the tension of the big idea.

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Speaker 1: Here the rest of the conversation with Ken Burns at.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing, dot org, when we return, autism advocate

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Speaker 1: Calin partlow shares what she feels is most misunderstood about

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. I'm Talia S Langer and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. Director Kiano' CLARY had made two seasons

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Speaker 1: of the series. When he set out to film the

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Speaker 1: US version of love on the spectrum, I wondered if

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Speaker 1: he ever felt pressure about the show's portrayal of the

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Speaker 1: artistic community. Yeah, there is a sense of like a

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Speaker 1: weight of responsibility that these stories are, you know, probably

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest representations of autism now in the media. So,

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Speaker 1: given they are real people's stories, that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: most comforting thing for me, is that you know these

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Speaker 1: are we're just we're trying to give voice to people,

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Speaker 1: to tell their own stories as much as we can,

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Speaker 1: which is why we have those muster interviews where people

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Speaker 1: are looking down the barrel. It looks like they're looking

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Speaker 1: straight at the audience. They're looking at me through a

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Speaker 1: mirror thing, just things like that that just helped to

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Speaker 1: feel like we're giving people a voice rather than trying

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Speaker 1: to present people. Kaalen. Do you feel that public views

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Speaker 1: are changing or evolving about our atism? I think so.

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Speaker 1: I think some countries are doing really well, in some

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Speaker 1: countries are not quite caught up in terms of accurate

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Speaker 1: information or information at all, and so I think in

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Speaker 1: some places and in some aspects we're doing really well

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Speaker 1: in terms of autism awareness, and in some places and

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Speaker 1: some aspects there's lots of work to be done. What

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Speaker 1: do you wish that more people understood about autism? I

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Speaker 1: think something important to be considered, to be understood by

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Speaker 1: people about autism would be just that autism can present

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Speaker 1: in so many ways and that you shouldn't make assumptions

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Speaker 1: about the autistic person that you are meeting based on

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Speaker 1: the last autistic person that you've interacted with. So they say,

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Speaker 1: once you've met one person with autism. You've met one

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Speaker 1: person with autism and we're all so incredibly different that

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Speaker 1: there are going to be traits that we have in

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Speaker 1: common and similarities that will have between us, but the

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Speaker 1: way that those present in each person are just going

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Speaker 1: to be so different. I'm wondering what are some things

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Speaker 1: that you love and appreciate about your own autism? One

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Speaker 1: thing I really like is my ability to have great

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Speaker 1: passion for the work that I'm doing, be that with

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Speaker 1: dogs or with children. I think I've just been really,

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Speaker 1: really passionate about everything that I've kind of set out

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Speaker 1: to do in my life and I don't know that

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Speaker 1: I would have had that same passion and drive if

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Speaker 1: I weren't autistic. Yeah, I wanted to read a quote

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Speaker 1: from the Autistic Self Advocacy Network and the quote is

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Speaker 1: our society says that disability is the problem and that

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Speaker 1: the solution is to cure the disability or to try

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Speaker 1: and make the person, quote, less disabled. Unquote. The disability

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Speaker 1: rights movement says that people with disabilities are not the problem. Instead,

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Speaker 1: society is the problem when it does not accommodate people

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Speaker 1: with disabilities. Do you agree and how can we change it?

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Speaker 1: So I come at it from two angles, both as

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Speaker 1: a provider of services for disabled people as well as

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Speaker 1: a disabled person myself. There are definitely some systemic and

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Speaker 1: societal problems that, if they were removed, our lives would

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Speaker 1: be significantly easier. That said, there is no amount of

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Speaker 1: societal changes that is going to give somebody the ability

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Speaker 1: to communicate without being taught. That doesn't mean that they're broken,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with them, it

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Speaker 1: just means they need to be taught in a way

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Speaker 1: that they can understand. Like all people. All people have

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Speaker 1: skills to learn, all people have things that they need

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Speaker 1: to learn in their lives and no amount of turning

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Speaker 1: the lights down or changing the physical environment is going

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Speaker 1: to give somebody an ability that they didn't have before.

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Speaker 1: That is so well explained and it's also so applicable

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Speaker 1: just to humanity in general, to the human experience. It is,

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Speaker 1: and I think people might criticize me for saying but,

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Speaker 1: like you just said, it's it's so applicable to humanity,

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Speaker 1: not just the disabled portion of humanity, it is for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Accommodations are wonderful and they do help a lot of

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Speaker 1: people and they help for a lot of different things Um,

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Speaker 1: but it is not going to cure the problem. Not

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Speaker 1: to say that being disabled as a problem that needs

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Speaker 1: to be cured, but just to say that if you

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Speaker 1: are having a difficulty, a societal change might help you,

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Speaker 1: a systemic change might help you, but depending on what

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Speaker 1: it is, it also might not help you. I've enjoyed

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Speaker 1: talking to you both so much. Thank you. I've learned

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Speaker 1: a lot and I've I've really loved watching this series.

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Speaker 1: So Calin, thank you, and Kien, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. It's great director Kian o'clary and

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Speaker 1: Klin partlow from love on the spectrum. My next guest,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Cook, is a speaker, consultant, autism advocate and the

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Speaker 1: author of several books on autism, including her memoir autism

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Speaker 1: in heals, the untold story of a female life on

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. Cook works as a dating coach with the

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Speaker 1: participants on the Netflix show love on the spectrum. She

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Speaker 1: brings her own experience as a person with autism to

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Speaker 1: her work and she really tailors her help to suit

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Speaker 1: each individual's particular needs. Before we talked about the show itself,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hear how she defied autism in her

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Speaker 1: own words. So the technical answer is going to be

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Speaker 1: that it's a neurological and neurodevelopmental disorder, and you can

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Speaker 1: certainly say that that is true. It's Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: clinically it's a disability, and that's how any professional is

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Speaker 1: going to go ahead and describe it. However, that being said,

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Speaker 1: I think it's more like a constellation. You know, if you,

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Speaker 1: if any of us, look up into the night sky

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Speaker 1: and we see, you know, let's say we're looking at

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Speaker 1: the big dipper. Okay, well, we're imagining that. There's a

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Speaker 1: picture there. Those are all their own little, you know,

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Speaker 1: stars in the sky, but if we journeyed on over

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Speaker 1: to Mars and we looked up in the same place,

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't see that same picture. That's because those stars

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Speaker 1: are really, you know, in and of themselves. They're doing

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Speaker 1: their own thing. It's together the cluster that we are seeing,

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Speaker 1: that we're imagining together, we're putting a parameter around that

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Speaker 1: is what we then label the big dipper. That's a constellation, right.

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Speaker 1: That's the same thing we do with autism. It's a cluster,

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Speaker 1: a constellation of otherwise unrelated that's what syndrome means otherwise unrelated,

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Speaker 1: you know, issues, challenges. I don't like to use the

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Speaker 1: word symptoms because that to me, that sounds like I mean,

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Speaker 1: that could be a cold, you know, it just sounds wrong,

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Speaker 1: but that we then associate together and form this concept

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Speaker 1: that we call autism. That was very well explained. And

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Speaker 1: given that it's a spectrum and everything is is different

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Speaker 1: for every single individual, just as you sort of just

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Speaker 1: made clear for us, because we're talking about dating and

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Speaker 1: people on the autism spectrum dating, can you give me

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Speaker 1: a sense sort of in general what some of the

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Speaker 1: challenges that people on the spectrum might face when it

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Speaker 1: comes to romantic relationships? Absolutely, you know. So you'll notice

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Speaker 1: I speak and a lot of metaphors and that in

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Speaker 1: and of itself will challenge a lot of beliefs that

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Speaker 1: in fact, I've I've I've heard before. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can't be autistic. You use too many metaphors for an

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Speaker 1: autistic person to understand. And my point is, well, that's ironic,

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Speaker 1: because I am in fact and I can clearly understand

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. So I think maybe that's not where

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Speaker 1: the challenge lies. I think, as with anything else, that

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Speaker 1: there are uh different levels of ingredients and everybody's secret

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Speaker 1: recipe and everyone's secret sauce, and it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: going to starbucks and seeing the menu where you can

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Speaker 1: get a million different kinds of, you know, Latte this

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Speaker 1: and Latte that and refresh her this and whatever else,

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Speaker 1: and it's essentially the same ingredients just kind of mixed

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Speaker 1: in different recipes. Right. Well, that's what it's like being

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Speaker 1: on the spectrum too. So it looks a little different

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Speaker 1: because the end result of that recipe is going to

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Speaker 1: be a little bit different for each person. But it's

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Speaker 1: less of a linear spectrum and more of a mixology

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. And if you can imagine that the

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Speaker 1: same ingredients are going in and whether that's sensory sensibilities,

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Speaker 1: whether that is challenges with social cues. The biggest one

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Speaker 1: is what I call mind blindness, which is literally the

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Speaker 1: inability to innately, organically step into somebody else's shoes, into

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Speaker 1: someone else's perspective. We can learn to do it beautifully,

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Speaker 1: we can learn to intellectualize the process that comes organically

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Speaker 1: to others, but we have to do it intellectually. We

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Speaker 1: have to learn to do it. So all these things

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00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: add up to a cocktail, if you will, of challenges

429
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: when it comes to making any kind of relationship work,

430
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean even just a romantic relationship. Means

431
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: friendships too, an employee employer relationships, pretty much everything. So

432
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: if you know that a dating relationship, if it's going

433
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: to work and be of any substance, has to have

434
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: a foundation of friendship first anyway, right, then it kind

435
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: of makes sense that you can understand if you're in

436
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 1: a position where you naturally don't take somebody else's perspective

437
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: and your communication, your social communication queues, might be a

438
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: little bit different. You might tend to go on and

439
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: on and on when you know something well and not

440
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: realize you're, quote unquote, taking up all the air in

441
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: a conversation. Things like that. It's doubly hard. Dating is

442
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: hard for everybody. You know, it's not an easy thing.

443
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: Be No need for dating coaches, right, but throw these

444
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: little challenges in the way and again, with maybe a

445
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 1: little bit more here and a little bit more there,

446
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: the recipe is always kind of, kind of be the same.

447
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: So you see a lot of masking sometimes and a

448
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: lot of mimicking, and that's not always a bad thing,

449
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: right I want to talk a little bit more about

450
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: mind blindness that you mentioned, because I think putting yourself

451
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: in another person's shoes, are connecting with them by imagining

452
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: what they might be thinking or feeling is a part

453
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 1: of dating for lots of neurotypical people. So can you

454
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about how how one learns

455
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: to work around the tendency towards mind blindness when interacting

456
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: with somebody else? Sure you know it's you're gonna hear.

457
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: Everything that I say is going to be applicable for

458
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: everybody on the human spectrum. I mean that's the reality.

459
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 1: Nothing that I say is truly unique to people who

460
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: are autistic. It's that it's life with the volume turned up,

461
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: if you can kind of imagine, with all the intensities

462
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: turned up. So that being said, mind blindness is not

463
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: something you can train yourself out of. What you can do, though,

464
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: is become aware that you have it. So, just like

465
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm terribly nearsighted, I mean terribly, so I know very

466
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: well that if I don't have my contacts in, what

467
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: I see is a big smudge that perhaps resembles reality,

468
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: but in no clearer perspective. I know that. So I

469
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: know I've got to put in contacts or I know

470
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: I've got to put glasses on so that I can see,

471
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: so that I can make heads or tails of the world. Well,

472
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: it's the same thing if you know that you're going

473
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: to have to ask more questions that might seem obvious

474
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: to others. First of all, nobody gets annoyed if you say,

475
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: could you tell me a little bit more about you,

476
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: or could you explain more about that? Nobody's going to

477
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: get annoyed when you want to show more interests. That's

478
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: you know, that's sort of a misconception, and this is

479
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I coach a lot. It's okay

480
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: to not have it all together in the moment. It's

481
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: okay to say, what's that like for you? I can't

482
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: even imagine. Literally, I can't even, because maybe couldn't you know,

483
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what's that like, and I think

484
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: they're communication skills that truly would only benefit anybody. Thinking

485
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: of a game that you sort of played with one

486
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: of the participants on love on the spectrum. That was

487
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: the ball rolling game, where you sort of modeled what

488
00:26:07,960 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: it's like to have a conversation. Can you say a

489
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: little bit about that, because I think it does applied

490
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: to everyone. UH, no matter. Yeah, absolutely so. We're using

491
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: a ping pong balls myself and one of the participants.

492
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: Her attention was real short and she would kind of

493
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: be here, there and everywhere, and that makes it hard

494
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: to have any real connection with somebody else. Obviously you know,

495
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: because if you're not playing, almost like you know when

496
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: you're in the pool or when you're a kid and

497
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: you play that game with balloons and it's how many

498
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: times you can both keep it up together, you're not

499
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: competing against each other, you're working together. Right, okay, it's

500
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. That's what a conversation is. So

501
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: among the dating tips that I give you know, one

502
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: of them is that you have to start with the

503
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: foundation of friendship. But in another one that I'll often

504
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: say is that when you are having conversations, you are

505
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: not interviewing someone and you're not also testing to see

506
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: if they can keep up with you. This is not

507
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: a moment to try to show off either. So what

508
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to do was ground her with a concrete

509
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: experience that would go to get it at an abstract topic,

510
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: the idea of being a conversation right, not being one side.

511
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I did first was

512
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: I had a whole bunch of pain pung balls and

513
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: we were on the ground and I said, okay, now,

514
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: what your favorite color was? That, you know, four or

515
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: five questions in a row when I rolled them all

516
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: at her. Perfect. So I'm gonna roll this to you,

517
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: but I'm going to roll a bunch of them ready.

518
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: So what do you like to do? What's your favorite color?

519
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: My favorite color like dogs. Yes, my favorite color. That's

520
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. It is a lot of questions.

521
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: When somebody asks you a lot of questions like that,

522
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: it's hard to figure them out and listen to what

523
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: they're saying, which means I didn't get to know anything

524
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: about abby right. Okay, so let's try something different. Will

525
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: you roll the balls back at me? What's your favorite

526
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: thing to do? I like to play with my dog.

527
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: What's your favorite thing to do? Work out and swim.

528
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Roll it back. Okay, Great. What do you like best

529
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: about swimming? Because that Mermaid Swim, but I don't want

530
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: to go too far out where there's dangerous and roll

531
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: it back. You just gave me a good answer. Yeah,

532
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: that's true. Sharks can be scary. Right. Do you know

533
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: what you just did? You just had a conversation with me.

534
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: Oh my God, so what it instead? And then, right,

535
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: was then, okay, let me roll this question to you

536
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to roll it back to me

537
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: with an answer, and then I'll roll it back to

538
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: you with a tell me more, and in doing so,

539
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: you've got to adapt, you've got to move, you've gotta shift.

540
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: Rigid thinking is like being uncooked spaghetti. Right. So it's

541
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: that unbendable snap here, if you will. Right, but that,

542
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: with a little time and a little more like the

543
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: little nice bath in the water, you can be flow ere,

544
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: you can be flexible. This is you're literally having to

545
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: go with the flow, actually, and get that grabbed, that

546
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: little ball, that conversational nugget, and keep it going. And

547
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: that's the goal. What the best part of that experience

548
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: was for me was seeing how she absolutely didn't realize

549
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: what was happening until it was over and I said

550
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: to her, you just you just had a conversation and

551
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: it was this Whoa, I did moment. It's kind of

552
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: like being a kid and you're on the bike and

553
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: they're pushing you along and they're not pushing you along

554
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: anymore and you haven't realized that you're actually the one

555
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: riding the bike by yourself. That's what she had done.

556
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: You sort of, I guess, hinted at the balance between

557
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: helping her have a conversation that would be engaging for

558
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: somebody else, but also celebrating the fact that the way

559
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: that her mind works makes her an exciting person to

560
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: talk to. So maybe you can speak a bit to

561
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: this idea of as a coach, like how do you

562
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: guide somebody in dating while also helping them to be

563
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: their full selves on the spectrum? You know, I think

564
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: it's just as any good, if you will, teacher would do. Right,

565
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: a teacher isn't a doctor, and neither as a coach,

566
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: and not there to to fix someone, because I don't

567
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: believe they're broken. Right. I don't believe that I'm in

568
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: there to repair something or get the autism out of them. Right.

569
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: It's that there's a very able list, if you will.

570
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: You know perspective right now, that that's what is. That

571
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do when you're learning social rules

572
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: or your practical absolutely, from my perspective, absolutely not. It's

573
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: a matter of having multiple choices. It's a matter of

574
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: being a little bit bilingual, having social ease as a

575
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: second language in your back pocket that maybe you can

576
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: use to express your authentic self as well. And, Um, abby,

577
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: the participant we're talking about, definitely she's Quirky, she's out there,

578
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: she's funny and if she were stayed and reserved, I'm

579
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: sure she would be fascinating, but she wouldn't be abby,

580
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: and so that wouldn't be putting her out there in

581
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: a real way. And so, Um, if we want abby

582
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: to be happy and find somebody, which she has, then

583
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, you've got to be able to do it, coach,

584
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: in a way that's still, like you said, keeps that

585
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: authentic self, says that true, true center. Yeah, yeah, you

586
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: also mentioned masking or mimicking before. Can you help me

587
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: understand those concepts a little bit better? Sure, and they're

588
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: different and they can both work for you and against you.

589
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: So start with the mimicking first. One of the things

590
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: that you'll see with kids on the spectrum oven times

591
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: is they'll they'll be able to script, that is too

592
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: play off of an actually um re enact scripts from

593
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: their favorite TV shows or books to the letter. I

594
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: did a lot of theater growing up. I think that

595
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: actually helped me in that I could pick and choose

596
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: lines from characters that I played two then play characters

597
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: in real life a little bit, not in a way

598
00:32:54,320 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: that made me inauthentic or falls but if I wasn't

599
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: really sure what might best fit this social situation, especially

600
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: if it was around peers. That was my hardest we

601
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: tend to struggle the most when we're around our own

602
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: peer group. Um, we do better if we're with somebody

603
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: younger or older, or if we see your role or

604
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: we are in charge, we are or the subordinate, but

605
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: when it's spontaneous, pure relationships, which, of course, that's what

606
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: dating is going to be usually, you know, that can

607
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: be the hardest. So for me I literally would use

608
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: scripts Um and I would use the different like stage coaching.

609
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: You know that you would get from a director, and

610
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: that's one of the hard things the scripting can be.

611
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: It can be wonderful, it can in that it does,

612
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: it can empower you and give you a vocabulary, but

613
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: it can also be really challenging and cause dangers when

614
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: you are not fully aware of the entire situation. The

615
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: entire plot that you're bringing with with that script. Can

616
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: I also ask like when you're doing that, in that

617
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 1: moment it sounds almost like there's a split going on,

618
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: like you're aware of yourself as a as a person,

619
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: and then you're aware of a sort of script that

620
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: you're trying out to fit into a social situation. And

621
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: My understanding that correctly? Yeah, no, you are. It really

622
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: reminds me with again, with a foreign language. Right, so

623
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: if you're at a level with a foreign language where

624
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: you can speak pretty clearly, pretty fluently, but you still

625
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: are having to think it and then there's that moment

626
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: after you've finished speaking, where you're going. Please, did I

627
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: say the right thing? Right? You know, I speak Spanish,

628
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: but I can, I can think very clearly back to

629
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: a time when I said that, which means I said

630
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: ladies and horses in stead of Ladies and gentlemen, Right,

631
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: and it took me a moment to realize what I

632
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: had done and white people were looking at me strangely.

633
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: So it's sort of that same thing in that you

634
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: know you you are watching for reactions, and doesn't mean

635
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: you're always going to interpret the reactions correctly either. So, yeah,

636
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 1: there is that that momentary. It's like a lag, I suppose,

637
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, making sure you don't have to bleep something out.

638
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: It's sort of like that in real time. And is

639
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: that something typically that some people on the spectrum do

640
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: in order to navigate their way through social situations, almost

641
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: like that second foreign language, is social interaction? Yeah, it's

642
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: exactly what it is. And so, and that's where we

643
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: get to what we call masking. And masking can be

644
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: conscious or unconscious, right, it can be the I am

645
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: trying to quote unquote, look normal, and this is where

646
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I always point out that, you know, normal and typical

647
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: or not actually synonyms. But yeah, and that's where masking

648
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: can get very dangerous, because if you are trying to

649
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: suggestribly to be something else, then you are, you know,

650
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: if there's subterfuge happening, I mean you're literally, you know,

651
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: destroying your own self in an effort to be something

652
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: and someone who you are not. And we we can

653
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: look at all groups in society and see where that

654
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: has happened and why. You then get higher rates of

655
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: suicide and depression and eating disorders and self harm, and

656
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: that's what you'll see, especially among women and girls on

657
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: the spectrum. The rates are very, very high. In fact,

658
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: in my work one of the things I'll say frequently

659
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: is that if a girl or a woman has an

660
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: eating disorder, truly disorder, then that should be considered a

661
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: red flag to consider whether or not choose on the spectrum,

662
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: because it's that prevalent. So, that being said, you know,

663
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: masking can also be away if you're if you sort

664
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: of know what you're doing. You can also give you

665
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: a sense of control, and that's not a bad thing

666
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: because you can feel a little bit more like, okay, look,

667
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: when we put on our clothes every day, we're putting

668
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: on a costume. It's not a false one, it's what

669
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: we're choosing to present to the world. So in that

670
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: sense I think it can be a good thing. But yeah,

671
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: it is very much like speaking a second language. Yeah,

672
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 1: the masking sounds quite painful and it sounds like it's

673
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: very much based in a sort of almost like double think,

674
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: of what society expects you to be like versus who

675
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: you are. Yeah, no, and you're a hundred percent right.

676
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: What it means is that I can mask, if you will,

677
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: so well that whatever support or help I might need,

678
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: you won't see it, and so you're getting this this

679
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: sort of duel will experience where you're probably going to

680
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: be much more included, right, like. I know I've gotten

681
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: this a lot from the show, you know. And just

682
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: in like, you don't look autistic, you don't seem autistic

683
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: or you know, it's sort of then lends itself to

684
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: the like. You know, what does what does that mean exactly?

685
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: And I know what it means generally. What that means

686
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: is that because I've got high language skills. I mean,

687
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: I suppose I'm the gift of Gab word girl. So

688
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: that makes it look like there's no challenges, but that's

689
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: because I'm really good at mimicking, right, at copying and

690
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: then playing around with it and twirling those words into

691
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: something that works. I'm pretty good at speaking of foreign language.

692
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: Is What it comes down to. But Um to the

693
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: larger question, just, you know, of masking and mimicking and

694
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: where it all comes together, is that that's one of

695
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: the reasons that I tend to be pretty even flowing

696
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to language. Uh, using the verbage. Regarding

697
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: the spectrum, I don't care much whether people stay people

698
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: with autism, person with autism, autistic person like it, just

699
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: it doesn't bind. Language is powerful and important, but it

700
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me so much one way or the other.

701
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: I'd rather just make sure we can get to the

702
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: nut and be able to have a conversation rather than get,

703
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: you know, caught up in language or in the specifics

704
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: of verbiage. But the one exception to that is the

705
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: phrase high functioning or low functioning. I find that really

706
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: disturbing because, well, so many reasons, but one of them

707
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: is that you can be, you know, you can literally

708
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: be a non speaking autistic and have a verbal IQ

709
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: in the genius range. So I mean there is that,

710
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: you know, but when you stay high functioning or low functioning,

711
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: you're generally not taking account and not taking into account

712
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: the work that's going on to mask, to put it

713
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: out there, to be and so if you're too good

714
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: at it, if you're too good at your second language,

715
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: then you know it doesn't look like you need to

716
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: board or help. And if you ask for it, which

717
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: you probably won't anyway because you're not really sure what

718
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: that would that help would look for like, it's going

719
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: to seem more like you being lazy or difficult or

720
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: a know it all. That kind of thing, right. There

721
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: is a suggestion that you might have for listeners in

722
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: terms of terms that you do, uh, a lot of. Yeah, yeah,

723
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: I like to use more or less obviously in need

724
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: of support. Oh cool, yeah, yeah, you know. So I

725
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: think that's just kind of what I say and and

726
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: it works. Um. Again, I'm hard to offend, truthfully, but

727
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: I think that gives a I think it gives a

728
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: little bit more um onus to what's going on underneath.

729
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: That's author and advocate Jennifer Cook. If you're enjoying this episode,

730
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: don't keep it to yourself, tell a friend and be

731
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on the I heart radio, APP

732
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. After the break,

733
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: Jennifer Cook shares how the terms normal and typical I

734
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: mean two very different things. I'm Tallyash Langer and you're

735
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: listening to here's the thing. While Autism Advocate Jennifer Cook

736
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: is clearly an expert in the space, she actually wasn't

737
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: aware of being on the spectrum herself until she was

738
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: in her thirties. I was curious about how the later

739
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: in life identification affected her. The phrase autism, and you

740
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: know well, women and girls in general, that they didn't

741
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: go hand in hand. You know, Um, it would have

742
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: been more of a classically autistic child that would have

743
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: gotten that diagnosis, something someone who was non verbal, really

744
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: hard to integrate into society. That that was not me.

745
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: I was the goody good girl who, you know, was

746
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: the overachieving teacher's pet. I mean, let's that's well, I'll

747
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: just put it right there. That's what I was because

748
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: I was following all the rules. I was looking to

749
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: see how to be and how to be were. What

750
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: got rewarded the most was, you know, being what the

751
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: adults were telling me to do. I was not diagnosed

752
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: or identified, or whatever phrase you want to use, until

753
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: after my three children. Now my kids are now I

754
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: have a daughter who's nineteen, a son who's sixteen son

755
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: who's thirteen. But this is going back eleven years ago,

756
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: and at that point I had really fought for my

757
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: daughter's diagnosis, and I say fought for in the sense

758
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: that she was checking off boxes. But what wasn't quite well,

759
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: the phrase was weird enough that I was told she

760
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 1: wasn't weird enough to fit the bill. Basically, my kids

761
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: were diagnosed with what was then asperer's syndrome. You know,

762
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: it's now just all considered to be under the autism spectrum,

763
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: bubble Um, an umbrella. I was identified because I went

764
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: through and really I saw myself in my kids. My

765
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: Dad had passed away not long beforehand. He had he

766
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: was just a classic absent minded professor and that is

767
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: a real that's a persona of of Asper Syndrome. So

768
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: it was kind of like, okay, I think that I'm

769
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: the missing link between the generations because Pretty Dang sure

770
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: he had it. So therefore, but I had to really

771
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: sit back and go through all of these bullet points

772
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: of how autism presented, or how aspergers presented, what it

773
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: might look like. But all the ways that it, quote unquote,

774
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: might look tended to be very, quote unquote, manly or

775
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: boy focused. Right like, the questions would be things like,

776
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, does the child line up their toy cars

777
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: and trucks? Now, I didn't have toy cars and trucks

778
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: growing up. First of all, that question always throws me

779
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: because doesn't one line up things that are like aren't

780
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: lines of traffic? Lines of traffic anyway? It's so, but

781
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: this would be the autistic reaction. Is that I'm questioning

782
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: the questions, I'm getting right, that there's the autistic reaction

783
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: is that I'm getting into the nuances while missing the

784
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: bigger picture. But what I could say that I did

785
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: with my barbies is that I would set them up

786
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: in Tableau and I would take pictures of them and

787
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: that would be their adding albums. Rather or script we

788
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: go back to the scripting or script news stories that

789
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: they were then, you know, re enact other little kids

790
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: not necessarily doing that. You know they're not really interested

791
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: in doing that. So for me, finally getting the the

792
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: identification at thirty five, it took me having to go

793
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: through every one of those bullet points, UN zipping them

794
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: and saying, okay, well, what is it that in this

795
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: by doing this, in this behavior, somebody's trying to achieve?

796
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: What is the need that's being met? Ironically, I was

797
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: asking the diagnosticians to change perspective, which was what I

798
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: was not supposed to be able to do. Only most

799
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: of them were not doing and it was by doing

800
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: that that I could kind of go through it all

801
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: and say here's why, and yeah, and that's how it happened.

802
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. How did your life change. When you came

803
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: to that realization, you know, it was very much the

804
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: moment of okay, self forgiveness. You know, when I was

805
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: a kid I used to think I had somebody once

806
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: say to me you're too smart for your own good,

807
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: and I you know, that's an expression and I realized

808
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: that they probably didn't mean it, but I really took

809
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: that to be the case and I thought, okay, well,

810
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, what do you do with that? I remember

811
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: clearly starting to write a book when I was in

812
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: fourth grade. I had titled It Smart Because I thought

813
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: that was the problem with my life, was just being smart.

814
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: But can you imagine that? Now I would break my

815
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: heart to hear a child doing you know that, feeling

816
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: that way. But but no, for me it was a

817
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: great relief because it made everything else makes sense, that

818
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: I could be a genuinely kind, good person who also

819
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: was clueless at the same time and, you know, seemed

820
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: too smart to be clueless. It all just made sense,

821
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: and so for me that was a great, great gift.

822
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely he said a little while ago that normal and

823
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: typical are not synonyms and it sort of went by.

824
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you to please elaborate on

825
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 1: that sure. So this is one that I I really

826
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,959
Speaker 1: like staying in front of crowds where I can pick

827
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: someone out of the crowd who might be saying visually

828
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: a minority. So I will tell a story. There was

829
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: a very small woman who was turned out. She was

830
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: of Pakistani descent, and I said to her, would you

831
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: come up here with me please, on the stage and

832
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: in making this point, and she was a spectrum mom

833
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, let me ask you a question.

834
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: Would you agree that it is less typical to be

835
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 1: a Pakistani American woman? Then say me, German and Irish,

836
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: French American woman, because when we're talking about typical, we're

837
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: talking demographics, we're just talking numbers, pure numbers. That's it.

838
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: And she said yeah, that's true. There are simply fewer. Okay, perfect, great,

839
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: and I said all right, so we would say that

840
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: it's that you are less typical. And then I said,

841
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: but if I said you are less normal than me,

842
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: what would you say? And she said, Oh hell no,

843
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: and it was great because there's this little, teeny tiny

844
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: woman and just oh hell no, and I said exactly right, ma'am.

845
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. You may sit down to the

846
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: whole audience community cheered for and it was great, because

847
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: that's the point. One has everything to do with demographics

848
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: and numbers and there you know. It's absolute value stuff.

849
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: There's nothing attached to it's neutral. The other normal is

850
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 1: everything about judgments and everything about wanting to be something,

851
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: wanting to fit. Everybody wants to be, quote unquote, normal,

852
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: but do you really? I mean we all want things

853
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: to be easier in life. Nobody wants to have to

854
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: fight a fight and I think that's normal and that's

855
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: that is normal, and I think and I think that's okay.

856
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: It's it's all right to not want to have to

857
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: fight more battles than you have to already. Life is

858
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: not an easy thing. But that being said, you know,

859
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: there really is no normal. And when we are, if

860
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: we are believing that by being less than typical, we

861
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 1: are less than normal, then I think that's and self

862
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: esteem goes by the wayside. That's when you get into levels,

863
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, of depression and self harm, of loneliness,

864
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: of there being a great disjointed nous between intelligence and

865
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: career progression. Things just don't look good when you don't

866
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: when you can't find a way to see yourself in

867
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: normal right. What do you see as the difference between

868
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: autism awareness and autism acceptance or even celebration? To me,

869
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: acceptance sort of implies that there's something that's not ideal

870
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: that you have to accept, versus even inclusion or, as

871
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: you've just said, celebration. So talk to me about that. Yeah, yeah,

872
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: so inclusion to me, you know, like inclusion is that

873
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 1: should be like. That is not something to celebrate, like look,

874
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: we're being inclusive, like that's like being in elementary school

875
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: where you have to invite every kid in the class

876
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: to your birthday party. Do you want to be the

877
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: kid that everybody had to in? No, you don't want

878
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: to be that kid. That's inclusion, right, and that shouldn't

879
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: be the goal. That should be the baseline where you started,

880
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: start off from. So to me, I think a lot

881
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: of it, and maybe this is just the way mine works,

882
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: I see autism awareness or autism acceptance and I think

883
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: a lot of it has to do with a literation,

884
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: to be very honest, and then it works out easily,

885
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: but it's my works that way. So I see the

886
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: a's and I'm like, well, obviously that goes together, but

887
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 1: I think yeah, you know, when we think of tolerance

888
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: or we think of, you know, awareness or acceptance, it

889
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: can be really hard to not like equated with like

890
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: an ingrown tonnail or something that you've just learned to

891
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: like acceptly. there. Yeah, I deal with right. You know,

892
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm on the Board of the Council of autistic

893
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: advisors from the for the Autism Society of America, and

894
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: it was a huge deal to get to the point

895
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: of being able to say autism acceptance, because that was so,

896
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: so controversial even to some. Beyond going beyond awareness, I

897
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: like to push it. I like to say, can we

898
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: celebrate in the same way that you celebrate pride month

899
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: or whatever else? You know, it is by having difference

900
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: that we come up with something richer, more hybrid, vigor

901
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: in our world. So yeah, yeah, I think a little

902
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 1: bit of a little bit of melody to the tune

903
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: makes nice harmony. Okay. So just to close off then,

904
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: how can we all sing together? How can we all

905
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: help people in the autistic communities to be celebrated in

906
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: the way that they deserve to be? I think through

907
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: moments like like this, through listening to autistic voices. I

908
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: think for the autism community, if it's up to us

909
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: to try to explain a lot, just without disdain, without

910
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, there when you've been through a lot of hurt,

911
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: it can make you bitter, and I think so you'll

912
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: see that there there can be a lot of bitterness

913
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: or anger Um amongst those who have felt rejected or

914
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 1: other for a long time, and that, I think, can

915
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: be dangerous. So for the autism community ourselves, I think

916
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: what it comes down to is patience and gentleness and

917
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: kind nous, that which we would expect and hope for

918
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: for ourselves, for the rest of the rest of the world,

919
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: if you will. It's willingness to not be afraid of

920
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: the word autism so that when somebody is saying Golly,

921
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: I think I identify with that. There's something in there

922
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: that makes sense to me that the response to that

923
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: isn't no, you're not, no, you're not now you can't be,

924
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: which really has more to do with the person who's

925
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: reacting that way in the first place. It's about listening,

926
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: it's about learning, it's about having more depictions like this

927
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: show that are real, that aren't, you know, scripted, but

928
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: that are respectful. It's not autism porn if you will.

929
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's not. You know it's it's not playing

930
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: to a disability that everyone let's all stare at the

931
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: autistic people. You know. It's instead giving a platform to

932
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: real people, getting to be real people. Jennifer, I've learned

933
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: so much from talking with you. Oh, I'm so glad.

934
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: I'm just extremely grateful for your your clarity and your openness,

935
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for making the time to

936
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: talk today. Oh, I really really appreciate it was wonderful.

937
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: My thanks to Jennifer Cook, Kean O' clary and Kaylin partlow.

938
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: You can find love on the spectrum. Both the Australian

939
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 1: and American seasons on Netflix were produced by Kathleen Russo,

940
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: Zach mcneice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineers this week are

941
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: frank imperial and Brent bow drug. Our social media manager

942
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: is Danielle Gang Rich. I'm Talia Schlanger. Alec Baldwin will

943
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: be back next week. Here's the thing. Is brought to

944
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 1: you by I heart radio.