WEBVTT - Andrew Zimmern 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.680 My guest today is a lion of the food world, 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.720 Andrew's Zimmer Andrew. Good to have nice to be here, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.880 Thanks Bob. So, how have you been coping with COVID? 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.000 What's your life look like for the last eighteen months? Um? 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.120 I think when when I when I hear the word 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.840 coping and COVID in the same sentence, Uh, it makes 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.240 me feel tired, sad and angry. Uh, tired because we've 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.720 been working harder than we've had to to stay above water. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.360 And what I mean by that is that we've needed 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.839 the help of our fellows, and I'm not sure we've 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.639 gotten that. A percent. We've needed the help of our governments, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.920 and I'm not sure we've gotten that. I think we've 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.280 needed to come together in a way that is quite 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.880 frankly been because Austin and we we haven't been able 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:03.880 to achieve that as a nation. I thought this would 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.440 be the kind of thing that would be an automatic. Um, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:12.080 you know, a a public health crisis, global public health crisis, 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.960 and safety and wellness of our citizenry is government's number 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:21.840 one obligation in my opinion. So tired, Uh, sad, I've 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.399 lost I've lost friends, I've lost loved ones, I've lost businesses, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:32.000 I've lost money, I've lost time. I've lost so many 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:40.120 things to this horrific uh pandemic. And UH angry because 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.560 when I start talking about those first two, it just 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:47.720 makes me really piste off. We we we we could 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.880 have had this thing. And I mean that in the 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.960 full expression of the colloquial sense in which I suggested. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.120 I mean, we really could have had this thing. Um. 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.160 I was very publicly outspoken about the I even used 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.880 the word genocide at one point with the Trump administrations 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:10.920 handling of this uh pandemic in our country, although it 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.880 did have very serious international implications, as we found out 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.440 later when when tapes of the former president came out. Um. 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.440 And I wasn't joking about that. I I you know, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.480 we we fumbled the ball, fumbled the ball, fumbled the ball. Uh, 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:31.160 then we get a vaccine. Uh. And we're now in 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.440 a situation with the delta variant where we're we see 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:36.760 ourselves going down the exact same path that we did 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:41.200 uh in uh you know, a year and a half ago. 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:46.560 So UM, Yeah, tired, sad, and angry, Okay, let's break 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.440 it down to the more micro level. Since the lockdown 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.680 of March. Where have you been? Have you been still 0:02:54.720 --> 0:03:00.760 been in the Minnesota area? Has you traveled at all? Sure? Uh? 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.800 I did the Bill Mar Show. I think the last 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:08.440 weekend before the country shut down. Uh it was either 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:13.360 the first uh weekend of March, end of February, beginning 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.360 of March. I did the Mars show. Uh. There was 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.200 no one in the audience. They didn't quite know what 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.959 to do. They were about to go into lockdown. UM. 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.400 I remember no one being on the streets in Los Angeles. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:29.960 I remember coming home and was here for uh, you know, 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.680 going back and forth between my home and my my 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.280 private office. There was an advantage to having an office 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:41.000 that's a huge loft space with uh four different doors 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.200 uh going into it. It's a it's a one floor 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.880 uh sort of little mini complex we have for all 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.280 of our businesses. So we very quickly you know, masked 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:58.040 signs tape on the floor, and three or four business 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.840 leads and are controller in there every day, uh, trying 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.440 to make sure that, um, you know, to keep our 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.720 businesses to float. And you know, we had to downsize 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.720 and you know, lost some businesses and and lost some 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.760 business within the businesses that were open. UM. I've started 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:21.560 traveling again in uh early summer, UH because we found 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.760 a window and the ability to shoot some stuff outside 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.160 that we could make some episodes of Family Dinner, my 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.520 show for Magnolia and do it safely, UH, with testing 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.120 with masks, with all of the precautions that were necessary 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.720 to take and UH, you know, no one's sick. I'm 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.080 super proud of the fact that our company we have 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:47.359 a spotless record. UM. And and that includes the families 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.560 that we worked with. I did one or two day 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.599 trips to places during the summer. You know, I looked 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.040 at some real estate and Nashville for a restaurant deal. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.479 I did you know, some other stuff like that. UH 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.080 went out to l A and shot a bright shiny 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.360 floor you know, game show for another network. UH, and 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.400 did some stuff like that. UM. And went and visited 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.760 my kid. You know that my son goes to school 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:16.480 outside of the home in another state, and UH I 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.760 was unable to see him. He was home, I guess 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.280 for his last home visit. The beginning of February, right 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.640 for COVID went went bonkers and they didn't allow kids 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.640 to leave the facility or parents to pick up their 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.120 kids for a a local visit until the end of June. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.159 And that was the longest I went without seeing my child. UM. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.600 And I know some people haven't seen their parents or 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.080 other family members in in longer. UM. I only have 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:50.000 my own experience. Those five months were absolutely brutal. UM. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.480 And you know I you know, no vacations, no nothing. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.800 We we shot a couple of things over the last 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.839 couple of months. Uh. It's been nothing like our my 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:06.960 regular travel schedule, that's for sure. Everything's been canceled and UH. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.880 And now I'm not so keen on traveling again until 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:12.320 I see where this thing is going over the next 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.000 couple of weeks, and certainly not to the places that 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:20.680 we uh you know, typically find very easy uh pickings 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.080 for shooting. UM, which is in a lot of states 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.520 that offer us a lot of flexibility, but also happened 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:33.080 to be ones that are exploding with outbreaks of real 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:37.440 life cases of the Delta variant and shuttered hospitals and 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.760 and story numbers. UM. We're in a Minnesota. By the way, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.480 I think rates is substantial on the CDC website in 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:51.159 terms of UH uh exposure and caseload for the Delta variant. Uh, 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.599 but we're in the orange, but we're not in the red. Okay, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.760 almost a non sequitur. You said you were on the 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.640 Bill mar Show, and I watched the show and it's 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.160 a fun show. Other than literally the experience. Do you 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.960 find that gives you any benefit? Does it? You know, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.640 in the old days viewer on TV, everybody saw you 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.520 in a world where only a couple of million people 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.720 might see the number one readed network show. What's that like? 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.240 Brilliant question. Um, some shows I do because they're fun 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.520 and I want to do them. Uh. And it has 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.800 nothing to do with the exposure. You know. Sometimes people 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.320 say to me, hey, would you do this show? Do 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.160 you do that show? You're gonna get a lot of exposure, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.720 And I remind people that I have, you know, hundreds 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.640 of hours of television available on an international streamer. That's 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.040 you know, available in a hundred and seventy five countries 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.440 around the world. Um. And I certainly am at that 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.400 point in my career where I'm not doing things for 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:55.720 for exposure. Um, the Mars Show, you have to remember, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.960 timing wise, my MSNBC show What's Eating America had just 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:06.080 UH premiered two weeks beforehand, and so I wanted to 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:10.120 promote that show to a very like minded audience. UM. 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.200 I had done the Set Meyers Show, I had done 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:18.280 a whole bunch of other uh, you know, marketing and 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:24.000 pr stuff around the MSNBC show UH in early February 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:30.040 and late January, especially UH with jose Andres, who was 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.800 the in the first episode with me. UM. And when 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.199 I got the invite to do the mar Show as 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.280 someone who watches it every weekend, it was an automatic. Yes. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.560 Bill is very food obsessed and very opinionated about the 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.880 necessity for human beings to eat clean, healthy food, and 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.720 he actually wanted to talk about things that other shows 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:58.600 would rather not discuss, and I find that fascinating. UM. 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:04.120 And you know, fun these days in my career. If 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.080 it's not fun, and if it's not with people that 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:11.360 I'm really excited about talking to, sitting with, UH, visiting 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.480 who are who are kind of into talking about ideas 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:19.440 the way I am, I'm much less interested. What is 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:28.520 the number one publicity vehicle to get your message out? UH? Great? Great, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:34.080 great question. UM. I would love to be UH doing 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:42.000 more in in cable news because as noisy as that is, 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:46.600 I know that a lot of people who deal with 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.920 public policy and and the making of laws are watching 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.800 those shows. And I believe if I do, if I 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.440 rant for fifteen minutes in one of my shows on 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:04.040 a lifestyle network about UH food policy or about uh 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.400 you know, aquaculture or other things that I believe are 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.520 are are vital or the necessity for a foods are 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.680 a cabinet level position UH and pulling food out of 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.800 AGG and and U S d A, f DA, etcetera. UM, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:24.640 I think that the percentage of people who are watching 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.040 that lifestyle show do not that they want to be 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.160 entertained by me, and they want me to be teaching 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.560 them other things. And I believe when I'm doing my work, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.320 most notably on MSNBC of late, UM, I believe I 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.920 have the greatest impact. And that's kind of what I'm 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.560 looking to do uh these days. UM. And they are 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:49.600 also you know, UH opportunities online in the digital space 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.280 where you know, a good one minute clip of me 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.560 UH talking about the something that I'm really impassionate about 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:03.280 on certain websites, podcasts, etcetera. I think I have a 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:08.520 tremendous opportunity to influence UH outcomes or a greater percentage 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.160 of a chance to influence outcomes. Okay, there has been 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.040 a lot of news about the impact of COVID in 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.960 lockdowns on restaurants. UH. The latest news prior to this 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.640 delta variant putting a huge question mark in was the 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.600 ability to get help. So this is where you have 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.040 a lot of expertise. What I'm asking you is to 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:37.040 what degree have the restaurants and the restaurant industry been 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.480 affected by this? To what degree can they get out? 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.560 And what are the economics of a restaurant. I know 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.480 some people that say, well, you know, they're asked to 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.520 invest in restaurants in Los Angeles and they get reservations, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.480 but they're not looking to get their money back. Then 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.400 you have Danny Meyer's got an empire. So what are 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.520 the economics of the restaurant world? And then square that 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:05.920 with both the economics during COVID and especially the help situation. Well, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.400 it's it's both those things are true at the same time. 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.920 It's it's as if you could invest in a a 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.000 Taylor Swift record and the latest Crosby record at the 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.760 same time. You know, you're you're you're looking at two 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:26.439 very different things, but both our music. Right. UM, let 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.600 me let me take a step back and then bring 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.000 up to this this question of what we're looking at 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.360 now in terms of pay rate in restaurants, which is 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:39.600 extremely extremely important piece of the puzzle. UM. When COVID 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.280 went down and restaurants started to shut her, and we 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.240 saw the writing on the wall, seventeen of us, then 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.040 forty of us, on a series of emails and phone 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:54.120 calls and and skype calls and then zooms over a 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.920 two week period, co founded a group called the Independent 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.520 Restaurant Coalition Save Restaurants dot com. Every One can go 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.480 there and see everything that we've been up to. UM. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:08.320 Chief among us were some people from very diverse backgrounds. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:13.400 Uh Sam Cass uh incredible chef, but had also been 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:19.000 uh former First Lady Michelle Obama's Uh foods are uh, 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:24.840 Tom Collichio Jose Andres myself, Uh, the whole slew of 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:30.760 incredible human beings. Um. But several of us, especially people 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.000 like Tom Jose myself who had been talking for years 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:38.280 about raising a hundred thousand dollars at the gala to 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.839 dump that money into a bucket with two hundred thousand 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.840 dollar holes at the bottom of it, wasn't doing anything 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.960 to advance the causes that were so near and dear 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.439 to us. UH. Tom had started a Food Policy Action 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.160 Committee a few years beforehand, and for him, politics was 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.680 a love language. Jose Andres had founded World Central Kitchen 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:03.000 a few years before UH, and for him, UH, it 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.520 was feeding a hungry planet, especially those in crisis, was 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.280 his love language. UM I was about educating human beings 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.679 and and telling stories and changing hearts and minds with 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.760 that storytelling. With the politics kicker on the end of it, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.120 and you know, with along with all the other folks 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.200 who were involved U with us, we knew that we 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.760 had to get federal funding for restaurants and we need 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:33.840 to start working on it right away. So the i 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.240 r C was founded with a very very simple premise 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:41.520 protect independent restaurants UH and do so by making sure 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.720 that we were getting laws passed on Capitol Hill. So 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.080 first UH we worked to get the p p P. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.440 Then we worked to change the p p P. Thanks 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.880 to UH Republican Chip Roy of Texas and Democrat Dean 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.840 Phillips of Minnesota who pushed the p p P change legislation. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.080 It fixed a Swiss horrible piece of legislation, actually made 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.640 it work for some people. And then we went to 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:12.000 work with UH Senators uh wicker And and Cinema and 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:18.920 Earl Blueman, our Congressman of Oregon, and UH they drafted 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:25.360 Earl drafted the Restaurant Relief Act Restaurants Act, excuse me, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.200 and the Restaurants Act. We had done a lot of 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:33.560 work and invested tons of money on a lot of 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.520 economic studies to see exactly how much money was needed. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.200 We came up with a figure of a hundred and 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.800 twenty billion the OMB, a whole bunch of other independent 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.800 studies I think Mackenzie had done one as well, a 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.920 bunch of other big accounting firms had done them. Everyone 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.360 came up with roughly the same number. Cost a hundred 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.640 twenty billion dollars to save restaurants. But that would be 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.280 worthwhile because you know, independent restaurants would lose a quarter 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.520 of a trillion dollars just through the last three quarters 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.040 of that year. UM. So it seemed like the easiest 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.360 thing to do. Let's let's get those restaurants back stopped, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.720 UM so that we would have those restaurants to return 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:17.840 to whenever UH this thing ended and restaurants could fully open. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:23.760 That never happened until finally, with some last minute wrangling 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.040 and thanks to some incredible work from some of our 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:33.280 members UH Centator Schumer included or got included twenty five 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.960 point nine billion dollars into the Restaurant Relief Fund administered 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.240 by the s b A in the America Cares Act, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.920 which was the big tranche that the Biden administration passed 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:51.200 UH earlier this year. Now, the s b A opened 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:56.600 and it took applications for UH for these forgivable loans 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:01.960 and grants, and they took on eight billion dollars, rounding 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:07.640 up from seventy nine points something eighty billion dollars in applications. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.760 They only had twenty five point nine billion to give out. UH. 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.280 So there is a substantial number of people who have 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.080 applied for this, deserving of it been approved, who were 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.800 sitting here waiting for money. So the I r C 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:27.399 is desperately trying to get that Restaurant Relief Fund refilled. 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.880 It is of vital importance. If we don't, we're going 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.840 to have an economic tragedy of what I fear will 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.160 be biblical proportions, and here's why, and then we'll get 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.880 to the cost of doing business with the employees. The 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.359 independent restaurants, when you pull them on together, pull them 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.520 all together, are the second largest business in America behind 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.840 only behind the US government. UH. It is a trillion 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.560 and a half dollar industry, represents about five and a 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.080 half percent of g d P. But it only keep 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.520 seven percent of the money that flows through it. And 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.040 of that seven percent, well over half of it is 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.560 put back into the business buying broken glass, replacing broken glasses, 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:16.960 broken dishwashers, stuff like that. So it is an incredible 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:23.000 vital piece of turnaround money economics. UH. And restaurant taxes 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.760 also go to give municipalities to buy books for schools 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.879 and paint lines on roads and put new lights on 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.160 main Street and all that other stuff. Restaurants are also 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:38.040 vital to the tourism industry. They're vital to the cultural 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:43.080 identity of main street America. UH And most importantly, because 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.359 I believe that that everything is about people. When you 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.760 look at the people that are employed in restaurants, where 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.600 the number one employer of single moms, number one employer 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.920 of single dads, number one employer of returning citizens, those 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.520 coming back from jails and institutions, number one UH first 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:04.320 time UH job provider and now most recently the number 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:09.919 one last job provider. UM. It is a depending on 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.240 whose stats you look at, the number one or number 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.360 two for immigrants and new arrivals to this country. So 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.960 you can see this is a very very special population. 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.960 They're not gonna go leave a restaurant and the next 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.879 week go to work at Ernst and Young. It's just 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.720 not how it happens. It is a vital population that 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:32.880 needs these jobs. The if you look at the supply chain, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.320 all the food and the goods and the booze and 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.919 everything else that goes into a restaurant. Uh, the impact 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.560 on our economy isn't limited just to that trillion and 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.439 a half dollars and that five percent of g d P. 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.520 It multiplies by three or four times. Quick little fact, 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:55.480 just to to justify my point making UM, seventy five 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:01.720 cent of fish and seafood harvest did in America in 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.919 all our coasts, by all of our fishing industries is 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.200 sold in restaurants. Right, That's where the majority of people 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.920 eat their seafood. So just the impact on the American 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.680 seafood industry. You're taking away eight When when restaurants were closed, uh, 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.760 you know, four or five months into COVID, UH, the 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.560 American fishing industry literally came to a halt. Just to 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.239 give you an idea, that's where you saw it. By 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.480 the way, those tragic pictures on the cover of the 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.920 New York Times of the zucchini farm in a Maacoli, Florida, 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:35.560 or the lettuce uh farm in the Salinas Valley literally 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:40.320 tilling under the fruit and vegetables as far as the 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.240 eye could see because there's no one, no one to 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.520 pick it, and no place to sell it into, and 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.800 no one to ship it truck it right. It's is 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:52.680 an incredible, incredible impact on our nation's economy. And when 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:58.000 restaurants closed, So when restaurants reopened more vigorously a couple 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.560 of months ago, and some were getting federal bunnies and 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.119 some had been able to finatal things with p p P, 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.520 the vast majority had taken on a ton of debt, 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.239 everything from people who in a little pizza parlor who 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.640 had maxed out their credit cards to UH savvy restaurateurs 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.359 who've been able with their track record to get loans 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.640 from banks. Everyone took on a staggering amount of debt, 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.399 gambling that they were either going to get relief from 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.880 the government in form of the restaurant refund being top 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.000 back golf, or they were going to be able to 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.399 open fully. Now you have to remember even those restaurants 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.040 that were open fully, and I walked by some in 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.600 my hometown and was like, Wow, they're doing great business. 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.159 But I also knew that they had taken on a 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:45.320 year and a half of debt and they missed a 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.639 year and a half of profit, and to make that 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.359 up would take five or six years of being full 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.280 all the time just to get back to zero, just 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.240 get back to where they were at the end of 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:02.879 beginning of One of the things is that UH folks 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:10.160 never saw coming with COVID UH was the the human 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:15.840 capacity for enduring pain and misery and coming up with 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.040 a better solution for their own lives. And I believe 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.040 that and the low pay and some of the toxic 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:29.440 UH issues surrounding the restaurant business are the two biggest 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.520 reasons that we are struggling to find people to work 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.080 in restaurants. UM. So many people who were servers, bussers, 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:45.200 hosts and hostess bar backs, uh line cooks, dishwashers, simply 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.520 found a different way to make a living. And as 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:52.400 things went on during COVID, they realized, wow, this is 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.480 this is pretty good for my lifestyle, or or I've 0:22:55.600 --> 0:23:00.080 changed what I'm doing. Um, I've found another way to 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.159 supplement my life. Remember a lot of people in the 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.520 restaurant industry are lifers. They're they're devoted to restaurants. They're 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.439 always gonna work in restaurants. They love restaurants. But the 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.240 vast majority of them are actually they're temporarily their college 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.200 students moving on to something else. They're actors in New York, 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:21.240 their musicians in Nashville, right, Um, they're doing something else 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.760 in transitioning. So people found a better and different way. 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:29.760 And I believe very very strongly that a lot of 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:34.880 people were working in restaurants that we were unbalanced, where 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:39.840 there was no vacation pay, there was no health benefits, 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.560 there was no types of insurance there there there wasn't 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.360 a professionalized atmosphere within the restaurants they were working in, 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.080 and they felt that those issues were toxic to their 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:54.080 returning that decided to make a career switch. I have 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.200 seen now. I was just on a two weeks ago, 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:03.200 was on an interview and with Tom Collegio. And the 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.560 reason I bring him up is that extremely famous chef 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.600 with you know, a half dozen restaurants around the country, uh, 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:16.359 maybe more um and someone who very much uh is 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.280 at the the tip of the iceberg when it comes 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:23.440 to fame and and also skill set, an incredible chef, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.200 incredibly talented. Right before we went on, he was telling 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:31.520 me that, UM, he was only open I think at 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:38.040 that point Wednesday through Sunday. Uh. And the reason was is, uh, 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.679 he couldn't find enough staff. And there were some people 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.639 in this position who actually found that their restaurant in 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:48.840 their own lifestyle function better than being open seven days. 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:50.680 They were willing to do less money and keep a 0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:54.240 little bit themselves and find it easier to manage. I 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:56.000 know of a lot of local restaurants here in the 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:58.960 Twin Cities, obviously, and I speak to more restaurant owners 0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:00.679 here in the Twin Cities on a regular basis that 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.159 I do anywhere else. But we're a big modern metro uh. 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:07.280 And by the way, in summertime where people can sit outside, 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:10.600 they're all off there. Only there some are open limited hours. 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:14.119 They've limited their menus so that they could shrink the 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:18.240 number of people on their staff. It is a huge, 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:23.480 uh crisis. The employment crisis and restaurants is very real. UM, 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:29.240 I do happen to believe, uh, like uh some other 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:33.399 people in my industry, UM that a level setting of 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:38.520 hourly and salary employees, a level setting of the tipping mechanisms, 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:42.800 a level set, level setting of guests charges. In other words, 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:47.440 letting everybody in the restaurant profit equally from this success 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:58.440 is of vital, vital, vital importance. Okay, Denny made that. 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:00.919 You know, we included the service me then after COVID 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:04.480 got eliminated. Uh, I know him, but very you know 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.000 a fraction. Have you spoke with him in terms of 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:11.479 how that worked before the COVID? Was it working for him? Yeah, well, Danny, 0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:14.320 I've I've known Danny for twenty five years and I 0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:18.760 consider him a good friend and uh we do speak 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.160 and uh he is someone who I consider to be 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:27.679 uh one of the brightest, uh smartest business people and 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.720 human beings I've ever met in the restaurant business or elsewhere. 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:36.040 He also is one of the folks. If he's not 0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:38.280 the leading light. He's one of the two or three 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:41.800 leading lights in our industry. Everyone looks at what Danny 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:46.560 does in his businesses um uh and his book Setting 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:49.919 the Table is probably the only mandatory piece of reading 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.680 and the restaurant business that I reckon. When everyone says, 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:54.520 what's the one thing I should read, I said, you 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.080 read Setting the Table by Danny Meyer. It's the It's 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:00.520 the best book about restaurants and hospital so much so 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:05.120 that there you know our business leaders who who make 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:07.720 it mandatory reading for their C suite people, they're not 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:09.480 even in the food business. It's a it's a really 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:13.680 brilliant book I recommended for everyone. Danny several years ago, 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:18.080 pre covid H, decided to experiment with service charges and 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:21.040 doing away with tipping. He was, like many other things, 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:25.159 way ahead of his time, too much, too soon, and 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:27.920 without other people doing it in the industry, was very, 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:33.600 very confusing to consumers. So Danny went back to tips. Uh. 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:37.080 The other issue that restaurants have charged. I'm being completely 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:39.520 transparent here is someone who is a partner in several 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:44.080 restaurant groups and invest in restaurants himself and talks to 0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:47.160 a lot of restaurant owners. People had talked about doing 0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:53.960 this pre COVID again, because it is very crucial. Restaurants 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:58.240 have not been able to charge what food really costs 0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:01.680 on a plate for many, any many decades. They've been 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:06.760 artificially deflating their prod uh, the their what they charged 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:09.560 their prices on their menu and trying to make it 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:12.600 up at the bar. You've probably heard this colloquially at 0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:15.080 dinner parties a lot for anyone who's invest in restaurant. Well, 0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:18.200 we're gonna do at the bar. We're gonna do fifty 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.840 percent of revenue from our bar. We're gonna make a 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.639 bar that happens to serve food and every other version 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:25.800 of that and in every because your profit margins are 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:27.720 higher and there's less waste than all the rest of 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:29.639 that kind of stuff, and you need fewer people to 0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:36.400 serve liquor than you do to serve food. Uh. But fascinatingly, um, 0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:39.760 right before COVID, a lot of restaurateurs were calling me 0:28:39.800 --> 0:28:42.000 to explore the idea of what it would take to 0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:46.800 go with a service charge, And in talking to them, 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:48.400 the one thing they all had in common was they 0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:51.760 all believe they would lose a lot of employees, they 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:54.479 would have to go to restricted hours for a couple 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:59.440 of weeks or a month as they onboarded new employees. 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.240 Right as you in board those new employees who have 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:07.080 different expectations of dollars, you can then retrain your staff. 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:09.280 That's a huge expense for a restaurant. One of the 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:13.520 biggest expenses restaurants have, uh independent restaurants is that is 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.960 the dollars takes to train and on board a new employee, 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:22.880 and the the old employees would leave because a server 0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:26.400 that was making a good night is now gonna make 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:28.440 twenty five and a good night and he's gonna be 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:32.200 sharing money with other people and taking less for himself. 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.600 So those people tend to leave and go to another 0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:37.800 restaurant that isn't implementing service charges. So a lot of 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:42.600 people shied away from it. COVID put everyone in the 0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:48.040 same boat. And so now that we're out of COVID, 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:50.880 I would say the majority of restaurants that I've been 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:54.200 in in the last five six months, uh and that's 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:58.080 uh four months that I've been dining out. Uh. The 0:29:58.280 --> 0:30:01.320 I would say the restaurants that I go to all 0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:04.480 have a service charge on them. We just in Minnesota 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:10.200 today one of our the Twin cities most beloved newcomers. 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.640 A and by the way, this place that serves hamburgers 0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:17.280 uh and ice cream and French fries. That's not a 0:30:17.320 --> 0:30:22.440 fancy restaurant UH called baby Zito's, just beloved by Minnesota's 0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:24.880 hot new place. Everyone loves it. Have you had their burger? 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:27.840 Have you had their ice cream? Run by incredible young people, 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:31.360 really impassion just announced that they're going to a service 0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:35.040 charge of eighteen percent so that they can share the 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:38.080 money with all of their employees and and actually get 0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:41.600 the economics of their own business right. And you're seeing 0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:43.840 this more and more and more. And the reason is, 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.960 we have to pay our employees better. We have to 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.760 offer them paid sick leave, we have to offer them 0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:52.640 some form of insurance that they earn into. We have 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.880 to professionalize and get those dollars up for these employees 0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:58.959 because so many of them have been kicked in the 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:03.480 butt by artificially depressed wages. And the reason that restaurants 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:08.240 can't pay the same dollars that other businesses do is 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:11.720 because they haven't been able to charge what that plate 0:31:11.760 --> 0:31:14.680 of chicken really costs on the plate. For decades and 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:18.440 decades because no one, because the American consumer, and I'm 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:21.240 sure you've heard this before from from other thought leaders, 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:27.640 is hooked on cheap fast food. And I don't just mean, uh, 0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:31.080 you know, the McDonald's of the world. You know, Americans 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:34.680 believe that, you know, a red piece of red meat 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:37.240 that's eight to twelve ounces should only cost them X 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:39.320 number of dollars and come with the giant baked potato 0:31:39.360 --> 0:31:42.280 and a salad bar. And they're not factoring in what 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:45.440 that food really cost to get to the table, what 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:51.840 it costs to be planted, picked, trucked, prepped, stored, cooked 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:55.880 and served and cleaned up after that plate of food. 0:31:55.920 --> 0:32:00.200 Dining in restaurants is a more expensive proposition. As we 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.000 want this huge moment in American history where food is 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:07.760 the new rock right where we've we've never had. There's 0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.720 no culture in America, no culture in the world that 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.600 has had a more romantic relationship ever with food that 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:18.040 America has in the last ten, twelve, fifteen years. But 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:20.840 we're not willing to pay for it. And now the 0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:25.800 swallows have returned to Capistrano, and in the spirit of 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:29.640 tortured metaphors everywhere, it's time to pay the piper. Okay, 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:34.400 you mentioned all these household names. Certainly two people paying attention, uh, 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:39.040 you know, Tom Collickio Jose Andres. I gotta ask you 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.400 some of these people, certainly Bobby Flay seems to be 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:46.400 on food television seven. To what degree is their camaraderie 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:51.280 and to what degree is their competition both? I think 0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:53.880 it's like any other business. You know, food people are 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:56.680 the best people in the whole world. I really truly 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.640 believe that I'd rather be with food people than any 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:03.640 other human beings on planet Earth. If I'm with uh, 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:07.360 food people who are recovering addicts and alcoholics as well, 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:10.640 that to me is the the apex of human being. 0:33:10.720 --> 0:33:14.000 But I have a lot of personal bias there. Um. 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.560 You know, there is a ton of mutual respect to 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:19.080 some people not like each other. Of course, it's just 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:22.520 like anywhere else. Um, But there's a ton of respect 0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:26.080 because you have to work really hard, uh to get 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:29.480 to a place of achievement uh in the food world, 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:32.920 and it's even harder to stay there. I think people 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:37.600 unfairly criticized people like Bobby Flay. I'll just use him 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:40.560 as as an example. I've heard things from friends of 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:42.520 mine like, well, he can't really be a good cookies 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:46.719 on TV. He's actually one of the most phenomenal chefs cooks. 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:51.240 When he actually touches food, he's he's an incredible, incredible craftsperson. 0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:54.440 Same thing with Tom Callikio. There's a whole generation of 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.760 people who only think of Callikio as someone who turns 0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:00.520 to Podma when she's ready to tell folks to pack 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:03.160 their knives and go home. It's one of the greatest 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:06.320 chefs of his generation. Um. These are people who I 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:09.279 believe thirty years from now will still be talked about 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:15.400 for their cuisine at the same time that camaraderie. Uh. 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:18.719 You know, there's only so many TV stations they're willing 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.560 to put people on. There's only so many customers, there's 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.200 only so many fannies to go in so many seats. 0:34:24.400 --> 0:34:27.080 There's only so many hotels that will give a chef 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:30.439 a deal and take their one or two units and 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:34.359 turn it into ten. Um. So obviously there's a lot 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:38.719 of healthy competition. UM. I don't think there's any competition 0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:44.799 for people like Jose andres Uh. Josiandre's is uh to 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:50.160 me uh in rarefied air. Um. Not only is he 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.640 one of the handful I'm talking about Top thirty forty 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.400 best chefs in the world, Top fifty for sure. I 0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.839 don't get an argument from from anyone. His skill set 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:04.319 is legendary. Um, we're talking three star Michelin. But can 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.640 also put together a sandwich on his vegetarian food truck 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:11.280 Tomato as well as anyone. Um. But he's also created 0:35:11.520 --> 0:35:16.840 a a a global UH network for help with his 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:19.560 nonprofit World Central Kitchen. That I mean he was. He 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:21.839 was one of the three finalists for a Nobel Peace 0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:24.640 Prize this year. For gosh sakes, first time a chef 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:28.040 has ever been a finalist for a Nobel Peace Prize. 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:33.000 And I hope people understand because of the unique aspects 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:37.279 and talent sets that this community of culinarians has. It's 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:40.400 why I really want to see UH, someone with a 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:43.600 food background become our first foods are And I really 0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:48.520 hope before his time as president ends, whether that's one 0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:53.760 or two terms, UH, that our current president UH adds 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:57.000 a cabinet level position UH to deal with food in 0:35:57.040 --> 0:36:01.760 America because it is that big an issue. It touches everything. 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.440 You know, we're in a state of permanent climate emergency. 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:07.880 We're in a permanent state of hunger and waste emergency 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:11.200 in this country, all related to food. The immigration issues 0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:15.640 in America, the largest number of illegal immigrants work in 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:19.120 the food business, and and the legal migrants come in 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:22.160 on visa programs that are managed by a group that 0:36:22.239 --> 0:36:26.000 doesn't understand food. And so consequently, I believe that all 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:29.359 those things, lumped together, as well as a dozen other 0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:33.360 issues we can talk about, make it a requirement that 0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:39.920 we established a cabinet level secretary position around food. Okay, 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:43.440 that foods are you talk about all these issues of production, 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.680 et cetera. How about something that's been bandied about a 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:50.000 lot in terms of consumption. You're old enough to remember 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:52.880 in the Reagan era when it's school lunches, catch up 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:56.720 was considered a vegetable. So the issue of what people 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:00.760 are consuming, these big multinationals, they literally we have people 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:04.520 creating what is commonly referred to as junk food to 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:08.239 be addictive. Okay, so on some level you can't even 0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:12.800 blame the consumer. Can this be turned around? Can of 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:17.319 foods are do something? Or is it's just too late? No, 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:21.200 it's not well for the for a national school lunch program, 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:23.400 it's not too late. In fact, we're seeing it. I 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:28.040 think we're up to uh fourteen states now that have 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:33.680 taken it upon themselves to pass legislation UH requiring all 0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:39.000 schools to provide food free of charge to students. And 0:37:39.080 --> 0:37:42.880 that's the first step. What I'm insisting on is a 0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:48.600 two step process. I would like food two or three 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:52.680 meals a day uh to be because it's the place 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.520 to feed kids. Well, let's let's back up one second. 0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:58.319 We have a hunger crisis in America. We had it 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:04.120 beaten down to of human beings that were food insecure, 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:06.719 which I think is a bullshit piece of terminology. I 0:38:06.800 --> 0:38:12.120 think it's too areadite. It's called hunger of Americans were hungry, 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.440 they didn't know where their next day's meals were coming from. 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:20.680 COVID dropped another fifty of human beings below the poverty line, 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.360 So now many of those are hungry. I believe we're backup. 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:29.120 Statistics say twenty uh to I think realistically the number 0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:33.399 is more like thirty uh. But even those that are 0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:37.360 eating are not eating well. To your point, they're buying 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:40.440 their food at dollar general stores. We profiled all these 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.640 stories in my MSNBC show What's eating America. I could 0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:45.960 cite you chapter and verse on the explosion of these 0:38:45.960 --> 0:38:49.719 dollar general stores that do not sell fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, 0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:55.040 produced fruit, meats, etcetera. Uh, they sell process food. It's 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.840 it's like a a cheap dollar store version of the 0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:01.680 center of the super market is supposed the perimeter where 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:06.280 all the fresh food is for kids. I think it's 0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:09.480 it's I mean, look, hungry children in America are no 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:13.839 longer a national embarrassment or a shameful piece of our 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:18.080 current situation. I believe it's a criminal situation. Hungry children 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:23.440 in the richest, most successful country in the history of civilization, 0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:26.720 to me, is a criminal act. To keep children hungry 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:31.120 as a criminal act. The solutions are widely available. We 0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:33.480 have the skill in this country to fix the problem. 0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:37.120 We do not have the political will currently to fix 0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:40.000 this problem. And this is not red or blue, or 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.640 left or right. This has been an issue like the 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.239 immigration reform that is so desperately needed, that has been 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:50.040 kicked down the road. Uh, you know, like an old 0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:53.600 tin can for thirty five or forty years, going back 0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:56.600 as you so, you know the reaganeer, a ketchup is 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:59.280 a vegetable, right, so what do we have to do. 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:01.600 We have to makes school lunch free for everyone. We 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:04.400 have to start cooking again in schools. You and I 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:07.200 are of the same generation. When I was young and 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:10.200 was in school, there were lunch ladies and they actually 0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:13.440 had tilt skillets and giants saw tape, and they actually 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:17.680 made food, uh and it and and it came from 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:20.560 There were boxes with heads of lettuce that were cut 0:40:20.640 --> 0:40:23.640 up that went into a salad bar. And you know 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:27.600 that that Salsbury steak sometimes tasted like a hockey puck, 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.880 but it was made with fresh meat and real ingredients 0:40:30.880 --> 0:40:36.200 and what we call whole foods. Right, they weren't empty calories. Now, 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:40.359 even in public schools that are offering free lunch, so 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:43.719 much of the food that's being uh served there are 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:48.239 empty calories. And because the laws in this country say 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:50.520 that kids have to have a certain number of calories, 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:53.640 the easiest way to make the number up if you're 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:58.560 putting healthy food, fruits, vegetable salads, lean meats on a tray. 0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:02.440 The way that these schools get around so laws is 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:06.440 stick a caramel roll onto the corner of the tray 0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:09.759 and you've you've got your caloric intake number. We're poisoning 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:14.440 our children. Kids who don't eat well in school are tired, 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:19.759 they don't get good grades, their outcomes are are less successful. 0:41:19.840 --> 0:41:22.279 This is statistics that I mean. You know, it's very 0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:25.640 easy to access from the biggest and most reliable UH 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:29.719 institutions in the country. The pew UH Foundation does incredible 0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:34.400 research UH in this regard um it is. It is horrific. 0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:38.839 And I will add this to that. Anywhere I've I've 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.760 been screaming this from the mountaintop for twenty years. Any 0:41:41.840 --> 0:41:45.960 place that the public dollar intersects with food, we are 0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:49.880 under serving the people that need the hug that good 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:58.480 food h gives. Public hospitals, public senior centers, public schools, 0:41:59.000 --> 0:42:04.160 UH jails, institutions. These people need good, healthy food to 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:10.279 help them recover, live respectfully, get better outcomes in the 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:14.880 cases of kids, lower recidivism rates, the cases of people 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:19.080 who are incarcerated. The warm hug that food gives. That's 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:21.560 talked about in the center fold of those food magazines 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:24.000 where there's like that ten million dollar house in Nantucket 0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:26.319 and all the wonderful red, white and blue pley, the 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:30.400 golden retriever, you know, roving around and piles of lobster 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:33.399 and clams. That's a fantasy. That is for the one 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:39.319 tenth of the one percent we have of the population 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:42.920 in this country that need the hug and the nutrition 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:45.719 that good food gets, and we we have the ability 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:48.360 to give it to them. We just don't have the 0:42:48.440 --> 0:42:51.960 political will right now to make that a reality. And 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:54.200 that's why I'm working so hard to make that a 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:58.440 reality by trying to talk to politicians, tell these stories, 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:02.040 you know, my MSNBC series What's Eating America out there 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:05.040 and talking about this on shows like yours, because it's 0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:08.960 vitally important for people to understand that, you know, as 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:11.760 the late great center of Paul Wellstone, my political mentor 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:14.600 here in Minnesota, used to say, we all win when 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.480 we all win, and if we want, if we want 0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:20.319 to fulfill the promise of this great nation, we have 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:23.399 to start feeding people properly. We just have to to 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:27.279 not do so is is criminal dereliction. Okay, But one 0:43:27.320 --> 0:43:31.719 thing we know is it's expensive to eat healthy. So 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:35.080 it's easy. It's cheaper to eat at rallies than to 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:38.759 make a fresh meal at home. And in an addition, 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:42.600 if you it takes time. Okay, In addition, if you're 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:45.799 Oprah and you have a private chef, it's amazing what 0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:49.680 they can make taste good, but we also know their 0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:53.400 costs involved. Is there any way to make healthy food 0:43:53.560 --> 0:43:59.040 more economically available to people who are challenged financially? Of 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:01.839 course there is, and there's tremendous their tremendous programs out 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:06.239 there in the school lunch front. Uh, you know, challenged 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:09.960 with that same problem. Hey, there's no way for a 0:44:10.040 --> 0:44:12.880 dollar seventy nine a meal, you know, or whatever it 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:14.920 is that the public schools at Can you make a healthy, 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:19.200 nutritious meal for kids that they'll eat well. Chef Dan Jiusti, 0:44:19.320 --> 0:44:22.719 who was the Chef de cuisine at Noma when it 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:26.520 was America the world's number one restaurant, started a group 0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:29.840 called Brigade B R I G A I d UH 0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:35.040 in the UH Northeast. He's based, I believe, out of Connecticut, 0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:38.720 UM and his company is now working with public schools 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:41.000 I think in three or four states and has proved 0:44:41.320 --> 0:44:46.040 that you can by buying smart and preparing fresh, uh, 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:49.160 you can do it and still meet the economic requirements. 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:53.160 It does require extra investment from the government, but what 0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:55.520 better use of our funds? And I don't want to 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:58.759 use the old cliche, uh, you know, let's have more 0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:02.320 bake sales and fewer aircraft carriers. But that cliche was 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:05.719 true for a reason. I think we do overspend in 0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:08.440 a lot of areas that we don't need to overspend in. 0:45:08.840 --> 0:45:11.759 Where just a few hundred billion dollars a year, and 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:13.560 I know that's a big amount of money, but when 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:15.319 you compare it to some of the costs of things 0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:18.120 we're wasting so much money on, becomes a drop in 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.319 the bucket. And I also will say this, Bob, that 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:25.920 we have skewed the food system in this country to 0:45:26.080 --> 0:45:33.000 reward the farm to freighter agricultural community. Giant agribusinesses that 0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:36.640 grow seed corn and soybeans and cotton and all the 0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:39.080 rest of that are the ones that get what are 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:44.120 now insurance incentitives, incentives that are also called subsidies. Right. 0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:47.240 It's it's just transferred over into crop insurance and stuff. 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:50.160 They're able to farm ten thousand acres with just five 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:53.760 to ten employees because they're driving these giant behemoth machines 0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:58.360 that plant and picked the food food fit for human consumption. 0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:02.040 All of it has been legally labeled. This is why 0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:04.640 we needed. Foods are has been legally labeled a specialty 0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:08.640 crop so they can't get crop insurance right. And yes, 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:10.360 in a sense it is especially great. It has to 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:12.759 be picked by You can't a machine can't pick a 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:15.480 tomato or a great has to be picked by hand. 0:46:15.760 --> 0:46:18.120 Let us has to be picked by hand. Payers have 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:21.120 to be picked by hand. But if we could invest 0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:25.720 in food, what better thing to invest in then feeding Americans. 0:46:25.800 --> 0:46:29.000 It is the to me, it is a no brainer. 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:32.319 That's where we should be investing. And if we invested 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:37.279 federal moneys and subsidized farmers who were raising food for 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:40.560 human consumption to the same degree that we're allowing insurance 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:44.840 subsidies for these farms to freighter economy farmers, uh, the 0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:48.399 system would literally self correct all by itself. If we 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:51.440 invest in real nutritious food. We've just done the opposite. 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:54.840 You know, we all know we've heard that that point. 0:46:54.880 --> 0:46:58.080 It's true. Seventy of the food in America is produced 0:46:58.080 --> 0:47:02.640 by the same seven companies. We're destroying our biospheres with 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:05.719 these giant agri businesses. All of the runoff from those 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:09.960 farms and those chicken uh, giant chicken farms and feed 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:14.120 lots where the cows are standing in their own filth 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:17.400 goes into our water system. We never had algae blooms 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.320 to the degree that we do now. Uh, stifling algae 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:27.880 blooms that kill off huge swaths of our coastal fishing zone. UM. 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:31.360 Until we started interesting these chemicals into the waters. We 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:34.719 can literally trace them from the Gulf into farms in 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:38.120 the giant agri businesses in the Midwest. Because all of 0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:41.160 that filth is going into the rivers like the Mississippi 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:44.080 and dumping into the Gulf. We need someone with common 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:47.320 sense ruling the roost. Here. Foods are for the wind. 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:57.960 From time immemorial, there's been the image of the tyrant, 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:02.400 abusive chef. All of a sudden seen comes along. We 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:06.239 have the me too era Mario Batali, let's use the 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:10.200 word was outed. What is really going on? And will 0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:14.120 progress be made? Has progress been made? An amazing amount 0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:16.439 of progress has been made, and it requires a lot 0:48:16.480 --> 0:48:19.760 more progress. That toxic environment that I talked about before, 0:48:21.000 --> 0:48:23.320 the part that relates to this question is often referred 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:28.799 to as toxic masculinity and restaurants. UM. You know, the 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:32.359 the majority of chefs in America for generations have been 0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:38.120 uh you know, old white men, and they have been 0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:46.239 allowed uh societally, culturally, uh to create environments that are 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:51.839 uh unfair, uh in many ways, illegal in many ways, 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:56.280 and toxic in many ways. UM. Let's start with pay structure. 0:48:56.680 --> 0:49:00.880 It's it's ridiculous that the you know, a active man 0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:03.480 or woman at twenty something up at the front of 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:05.279 the host and makes thirty dollars an hour and a 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:09.040 dish dishwasher makes eight nine or ten and worse, eight 0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:14.000 nine or ten under the table with no benefits. UM, 0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:19.160 that's ridiculous the amount of uh. And this is something 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:21.040 that has been a problem in our industry for a 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.520 long time, and I think it's unfair when people say that, 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.080 uh it's no longer a problem. It's a problem. Alcohol, 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:31.160 drugs and mental health issues in the restaurant community is 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:34.640 at a number that is, depending on who study you 0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:39.080 look at, uh six seven percent higher than it is 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:43.279 in the in the rest of our population. UM. I'm 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:45.960 working with an organization out of Atlanta called the Giving 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:51.839 Kitchen UH working on their alcoholism and addiction programs as 0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:56.120 they roll out these programs into other states to try 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:58.760 to help people because the restaurants have done a really 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:02.799 lousy job of doing it. If you work at you know, uh, 0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:06.760 the company down the road and you're having mental health issues, 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.680 rugger alcoholism problems, you can actually get your company to 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:14.160 help you with the HR department will help you access treatment, etcetera. 0:50:14.160 --> 0:50:16.840 It's one of those places that restaurants, despite being a 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:20.799 trillion and a half dollar industry, are hundreds of thousands, 0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:25.600 six hundred seventy, six hundred and eighty thousand, to be exact, uh, independent, 0:50:25.640 --> 0:50:28.840 little micro businesses, some of them very small, couple hundred 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:30.799 grand a year little mom and pop Delhi on a 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.680 tiny little town on Main Street, or that twenty million 0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:35.839 dollar a year restaurants in New York City or Los 0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:38.320 Angeles that everyone is dying to get into, and everything 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:43.200 in between. We need to service our employees better, We 0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:46.319 need to take better care of them, and we need 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:54.360 to understand that the byproducts of decades of decades and decades, 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:57.359 and in this country four hundred and two years of 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:03.480 white privilege has created toxic levels of intolerance in many 0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:09.239 businesses all across America, and restaurants are no exception to 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:14.000 this rule. Um, but restaurants can fix themselves faster than 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:19.120 big corporations, and what we've seen is incredible leaders uh 0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:21.800 in all states. I mean I could start naming names 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:24.640 and and never stop. We don't have time to list them. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:27.960 All of people who have created open source playbooks for 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:33.120 retraining employees, for managing restaurants, for instituting profit sharing and 0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:37.920 coop based revenue systems, who have figured out ways to 0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:42.120 to pay people better than a living wage, uh, so 0:51:42.200 --> 0:51:44.520 that people don't have to have two or three jobs 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:47.360 to uh, you know, put a roof over their family's 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:50.680 head and feed them uh and pay for the basic necessities. 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.760 And still doing it in the restaurant industry, I think 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:57.800 one of the silver linings. And I hate talking about 0:51:57.840 --> 0:52:01.000 this topic. I almost feel guilty, and I know I'm 0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:04.640 gonna get a lot of letters about it. The fact 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.200 of the matter is is that while COVID has kneecapped 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:10.240 our industry and has destroyed, you know, put thirty percent 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:12.200 of it out of business, and maybe more now with 0:52:12.280 --> 0:52:16.080 this explosion of the delta variant, the one saving grace, 0:52:16.680 --> 0:52:20.279 uh is that I think twenty years from now, when 0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:21.640 we have the numbers and we're gonna be able to 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:26.720 look back and realize that it was in knock on Wood. 0:52:26.719 --> 0:52:30.560 Things don't get too much worse that we literally shifted 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:34.120 from doing business and restaurants one way to a variety 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:38.480 of other business models that actually worked better, were fairer 0:52:38.520 --> 0:52:42.200 for everyone, and didn't just reward the few, but instead 0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:46.000 rewarded the all. And I don't mean that in the 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.640 commonly when whenever I talked about these people immediately start 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:52.120 screaming socialist at me. Couldn't be further from the truth. 0:52:52.239 --> 0:52:56.360 I am very much a capitalist. Uh I believe in capitalism. 0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:59.800 I actually believe as an entrepreneur that that small business 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:05.120 and big business can actually save uh culture can save 0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:10.400 this country uh In for many different reasons, UM, but 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:13.200 I very much of the capitalist. I just believe that 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:16.320 we have used the wrong economics and the wrong revenue 0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:22.160 system in restaurants and been benefiting the onlys. And I 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:24.920 think that the I think that's time. That time has come, 0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:28.440 and I think smart and savvy operators have realized they 0:53:28.480 --> 0:53:33.759 can actually be more successful in uh In using more 0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:37.719 varieties of business models, keeping the cash register ringing, not 0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:41.520 just in lunch and dinner, uh using bonuses and incentives 0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:45.200 and and yes even co op models, and yes, even 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:50.600 paying their employees more Uh. Michael Thestoria Um owns a 0:53:50.600 --> 0:53:53.399 a booming franchise, one of the one of the most 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:57.160 popular pizza franchises in America and one of the fastest growing, 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:00.439 by the way, called and Pizza. Uh. People can look 0:54:00.520 --> 0:54:05.160 him up Michael Historian his companies and Pizza. I think 0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:08.439 he's got forty locations around the northeastern United States something 0:54:08.520 --> 0:54:12.440 like that, and growing very quickly. Um. He's paying people 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:15.520 what everyone else considers an exorbitant rate and is one 0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:19.839 of the most outspoken proponents of taking care of your 0:54:19.840 --> 0:54:21.800 own people first, which, by the way, is a Danny 0:54:21.800 --> 0:54:24.799 Meyer idea. Danny Meyer was the one thirty years ago 0:54:24.920 --> 0:54:27.399 who said the customer is not the most important person 0:54:27.440 --> 0:54:29.840 in the restaurant. The most important person in the restaurant 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.480 are the employees. If you don't take care of your 0:54:32.480 --> 0:54:34.839 own people, then you have nothing to offer someone who 0:54:34.840 --> 0:54:38.320 walks in the door when you're open. And I believe 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:42.480 those principles are very very important. Okay, Earlier you mentioned 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:45.799 that given a choice, you'd like to hang with restaurant 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:50.120 employees in those in recovery. What is special about those 0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:53.480 in the recovery? Is it just a shared experience, or 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:56.640 do you learn something that those who have not been 0:54:56.640 --> 0:55:04.160 through the process don't have uh the latter um, And 0:55:04.239 --> 0:55:06.160 by the way, I should expand that, I was saying 0:55:06.200 --> 0:55:08.759 that with a with a smile and a wink. UM. 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:12.760 I like hanging out with people who have been through 0:55:12.840 --> 0:55:17.719 some heavy ship. I like hanging out with people who 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:22.719 have been forced to make some changes, have either had 0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:26.680 a phoenix like experience rising from the ashes, had the 0:55:27.160 --> 0:55:31.319 Joseph Campbell Hero's journey, and he was talking about, you know, 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:37.000 the odisious of of ancient Greek mythology. Tested kept away 0:55:37.000 --> 0:55:39.920 from home for thirty years until finally returning to his 0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:44.319 beloved athens um and that was the way that he 0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:48.760 became spiritually fit and closer in understanding to what made 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:54.800 him happy. UM. I believe that people who have uh 0:55:55.120 --> 0:56:00.000 not been tested in life, who have not faced uh 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:02.760 at because I think we all do at some point 0:56:03.040 --> 0:56:08.120 incredible challenges UM, don't become the fullest versions of themselves. 0:56:08.480 --> 0:56:12.040 And I really love being I think food people are 0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:15.399 most generous people in the whole world. I mean one 0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:18.720 reason while our industry has been kneecapped for the last 0:56:18.800 --> 0:56:22.160 nineteen twenty months. I mean literally kneecapped. Who are what 0:56:22.200 --> 0:56:24.920 are we doing? We're just borrowing money from banks to 0:56:25.040 --> 0:56:28.359 feed first responders. I mean, you know, food people are 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:31.760 still cooking for other people and we can't we can't 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:34.280 help it. We This is how we believe in serving 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:39.359 our communities. UM. And I believe people in recovery once 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:43.680 they've established a a a firm handle on their own 0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:47.960 sobriety from whatever they're recovering from whatever there is um 0:56:48.120 --> 0:56:51.360 is UM. I think those people who are doing the 0:56:51.440 --> 0:56:53.959 real work to change themselves are some of the most 0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:58.400 inspirational people in the whole world. UM. I wish uh 0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:01.440 that uh someone who look like Santa Claus but without 0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:06.640 a hat, parted the clouds and whispered the the truth 0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:09.920 of life, the answer to all the questions that I 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:12.920 have about you know, how to be happy, joyous and free. 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:17.480 I wish that that that happened to me, but it 0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:22.400 never has. Where I've heard and learned from people is 0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:26.280 from folks who have been through the same challenges in 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:30.640 life that I face or will face. UM, who share 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:33.560 their experience, strength and hope with me. And when they 0:57:33.600 --> 0:57:36.880 do that, I believe that's actually my higher power talking 0:57:36.920 --> 0:57:40.720 to me. Without getting to out there. I hear the 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:44.240 answers all the time from other human beings. That's who 0:57:44.320 --> 0:57:48.160 That's where I get my spiritual strength from. Uh. Is 0:57:48.200 --> 0:57:50.680 not from Santa Claus in the sky, but from other 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:54.320 human beings. Okay, how does a nice Jewish boy from 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:57.280 New York City like you who goes to you know, 0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:01.240 high level institutions like Dalton and end up in the 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:05.160 food world? Oh? Boy, I knew when I was four 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:09.560 years old. I think those other detours were I was 0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:14.520 very lucky that my parents had me in those places 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:18.800 because I I received an education that allowed me to read, write, 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:25.880 and think critically, um, and have some heightened level of 0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:30.240 intellectual curiosity and really be tested at school and enjoy 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:36.840 it um and uh. But all along my parents were 0:58:36.880 --> 0:58:40.240 also traveling with me all around the world, cooking with me. 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.200 My mother was an incredible cook, my father was an 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:46.680 incredible cook. They both loved to travel. UH. We ate 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:48.520 to travel and travel to eight. I've been around the 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:50.200 world two or three times by the time I was 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:56.240 fifteen years old. Um, what did you My dad was 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:59.360 in the advertising business, and at one point his domestic 0:58:59.400 --> 0:59:02.240 agency decided they were going to go international and so 0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:04.480 they had to take a bunch of executives and actually 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:06.960 be out on the road for years and years and 0:59:07.080 --> 0:59:12.640 years establishing these outside agencies. First by uh what's now 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:16.680 called acquisition, right. You acquire an agency in London or France, 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:20.400 or Rome or Paris or Rome, uh, and then you 0:59:20.840 --> 0:59:23.840 stock it with some people to establish your own culture. 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:27.720 And then you send your c suite executives over there 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:30.840 on a regular basis to be checking up on things. 0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:33.120 You know, there was you know, this is the sixties 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:36.080 and seventies, by the way. Um. And so my father 0:59:36.160 --> 0:59:38.400 would you know, he'd have to go to Paris for 0:59:38.480 --> 0:59:41.400 three or four days because there was an issue over there. 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:44.720 And if I was staying with him my parents were divorced, 0:59:45.320 --> 0:59:48.600 I would go. There was no nanny or babysitter. And 0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:51.800 my father believed that me going away with him was 0:59:51.960 --> 0:59:54.920 learning as much as I would anywhere else. Uh. The 0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:58.920 very progressive Dalton school that I was in h agreed. 0:59:59.120 --> 1:00:02.240 And so I would find myself at age nine sitting 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:07.960 in a little seafood restaurant in LaSalle in Paris. The 1:00:08.000 --> 1:00:12.360 old the old fishing docks and and the just a 1:00:12.400 --> 1:00:17.280 place where there was danger, where there was you know old, 1:00:17.480 --> 1:00:20.480 you know, dirty music on the jukebox, where the lights 1:00:20.520 --> 1:00:23.400 were low, where there was a baseball bat and a 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:26.080 gun behind the bar that had been used. But the 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:29.240 food was incredible. And we're sitting there eating these tiny 1:00:29.280 --> 1:00:33.640 little big ornio, these steamed periwinkles, these little tiny blue 1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:39.120 snails because my father's counterpart, who ran the French agency, 1:00:39.960 --> 1:00:46.760 Jacques Lange, loved drinking pastie and eating uh, these big 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:50.720 orno and then having a saute piece of fish for dinner. 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:53.640 And my father loved it too. And I just sat 1:00:53.640 --> 1:00:57.240 there reading my book while they talked business, and it 1:00:57.320 --> 1:00:59.440 was it was life changing for me. I was hooked. 1:00:59.640 --> 1:01:01.840 I want it to be a part of that mystique 1:01:02.240 --> 1:01:05.880 and that that that or I loved everything about the 1:01:05.880 --> 1:01:08.680 food business. And then when I was the summer I 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:12.680 turned fourteen, I asked my dad for that the spring 1:01:12.720 --> 1:01:15.919 before I turned four. You're the only you're the only 1:01:16.000 --> 1:01:19.280 kid or the other only child, only child, but my 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:21.840 my father, I'm a July baby. So in you know, 1:01:21.920 --> 1:01:24.880 April of that year, I went to my dad and said, hey, 1:01:24.920 --> 1:01:27.880 summer's coming up. I kind of like an allowance raise, 1:01:28.440 --> 1:01:30.840 and you know, I think I was getting whatever seventy 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:34.520 five cents. I'd like a buck And my dad looked 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:36.880 at me and he said, what do you mean? And 1:01:37.160 --> 1:01:39.280 I said, you know, allow, it's a little a little 1:01:39.320 --> 1:01:43.320 something something for me. Now. My father, greatest generation, lied 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:46.000 about his age, went into the Navy, you know, it 1:01:46.040 --> 1:01:48.760 was in the Pacific for three years, came back, helped 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:53.000 build a big company. Um didn't take any crap from anybody. 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:58.280 He was a legendary figure in the ad agency world 1:01:58.280 --> 1:02:01.840 of the fifties, sixties and seventies, and and you know, 1:02:02.080 --> 1:02:03.760 he was the He was one of those people who 1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:10.120 had gravitational pull around them. Everyone loved my father, UM, 1:02:10.360 --> 1:02:14.000 and you know that that everything slanted towards him when 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:17.040 he walked into the room. I'm a pale version of 1:02:17.080 --> 1:02:20.680 my dad, much paler. And my father looked at me 1:02:20.720 --> 1:02:24.160 and laughed and told me to to get out of 1:02:24.200 --> 1:02:26.720 his room. I mean literally chase ma. And I was like, 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:30.760 what what did I do? And the next day he explained, 1:02:30.840 --> 1:02:33.080 my dad loved to make me sleep on stuff. And 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:35.120 the next day he explained to me that I was 1:02:35.120 --> 1:02:37.680 going to turn fourteen, allowance was over time to get 1:02:37.680 --> 1:02:42.080 a job. M That irked me for a while, but 1:02:42.240 --> 1:02:45.760 I immediately countered with great, I want to work at 1:02:46.440 --> 1:02:49.120 the Quiet Clam, which was a seafood restaurant that some 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:53.040 family friends owned on the Montauk Highway in East Hampton. 1:02:53.400 --> 1:02:57.760 This is nineteen and uh, my father said, you can't 1:02:57.760 --> 1:03:00.000 work in a restaurant. How are you can't bike there? 1:03:00.040 --> 1:03:03.160 It's too far. I said, I'll get someone to drive me. 1:03:03.240 --> 1:03:06.000 I'll find I'll get a lift. He goes, well, Maggie 1:03:06.040 --> 1:03:09.080 and Irene haven't even offered you the job yet. I said, 1:03:09.120 --> 1:03:13.320 I'll go ask them. And thus became the process, a 1:03:13.440 --> 1:03:15.880 month long of negotiating with my parents to work at 1:03:15.920 --> 1:03:18.880 this seafood restaurant, which I did, and I had a 1:03:19.000 --> 1:03:21.439 natural ability for it. I cooked with my mother for 1:03:21.720 --> 1:03:24.960 you know, a decade. Um, I'd forged. We didn't call 1:03:25.000 --> 1:03:28.040 it foraging. Uh we we we gather food. We'd rake 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:32.040 for clams at Barnes Landing. We'd surfcast for striped bass. 1:03:32.480 --> 1:03:35.640 We uh you know, go crabbing in the ponds beyond 1:03:36.480 --> 1:03:40.200 the Georgia Coad Breakwater. Um, we would go ealing in 1:03:40.320 --> 1:03:43.280 three mile Harbor. I mean, you know, my father loved 1:03:43.280 --> 1:03:45.040 to collect food and throw it on the grill at 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:47.760 the beach or whatever. We pull muscles up from in 1:03:47.800 --> 1:03:51.160 between the rocks on the jetties. Uh. And my mother 1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:55.960 had a huge garden at our home, and so I'd 1:03:56.080 --> 1:03:58.360 been food for so I knew how to chop a tomato. 1:03:58.360 --> 1:04:00.560 I knew how to shock a clam. I knew how 1:04:00.640 --> 1:04:03.520 to grill a piece of meat. And I also had 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:07.520 a natural aptitude for it. And so I became pretty 1:04:07.560 --> 1:04:12.040 successful throughout my high school years cooking at this restaurant. 1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:14.880 Went away to college because my father believed I needed 1:04:14.880 --> 1:04:18.640 to go to a good college, uh and studying art 1:04:18.720 --> 1:04:20.400 history and history. For a while, I thought I was 1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:23.920 going to teach art history. Um, there's a lot of 1:04:23.920 --> 1:04:28.120 similarities that art history has uh with with food. You know, 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.400 you look at a painting. I remember Madam Karetsky in 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:32.840 the in the first day of the first class of 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.920 you know, Renaissance painting, put a put a painting by 1:04:36.960 --> 1:04:41.200 a Dutch master up on a wall from from the 1:04:41.240 --> 1:04:45.480 Northern Renaissance era. UM. And you know, it was a 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:47.720 woman and she's standing in front of a window, and 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:49.720 there's a table and a dog and a bowl of 1:04:49.760 --> 1:04:52.120 fruit on the you know, and that's really all you 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:55.040 can see. And she asked everyone to write down everything 1:04:55.040 --> 1:04:59.400 you see in that painting. So everyone did. It wound 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:02.720 up being, you know, fifteen twenty nuns. And then she 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:04.720 spent the rest of the forty five minutes after calling 1:05:04.720 --> 1:05:07.160 on a few students, just to verify that no one 1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:09.840 could actually look at this painting the way she could. 1:05:10.400 --> 1:05:15.040 And she then spent forty five minutes explaining what she saw. Uh, 1:05:15.080 --> 1:05:17.640 there were pineapples. They don't grow in the fruit ball, 1:05:17.680 --> 1:05:20.240 they don't grow in holland that met the family was wealthy. 1:05:20.400 --> 1:05:23.960 Through the window you could see boats. That was probably there's. 1:05:24.000 --> 1:05:27.480 They were traders based on the dress, the material, the 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:31.160 jewelry she had. And so she told this story of 1:05:31.480 --> 1:05:37.960 you know, of of you know coastal uh the coastal Netherlands, um, 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:41.440 you know, in the fifteen hundreds in a way that 1:05:41.560 --> 1:05:43.880 was like Sherlock Holmes to me. I mean, how did 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:48.200 she deduce this? I was staggered, and so I fell 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:50.440 in love with our history. Had always studied history. I'm 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:54.880 a double major, you know, got a essentially a degree 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:58.080 in both. And I realized one day when I was 1:05:58.120 --> 1:06:01.040 staring at a bowl of china fina a jungle market 1:06:01.280 --> 1:06:04.520 in nicaraguach. I'm fine as a stew made of inners 1:06:04.640 --> 1:06:08.480 guts of the animals. It's you know, couching, a povera, 1:06:08.680 --> 1:06:11.640 the food of the poor, right, and it's it was 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:15.160 made in big ten gallon barrels and all the workers 1:06:15.240 --> 1:06:17.200 and the people who finally got off work at ten 1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:20.040 o'clock at night after starting at seven in the morning. 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:22.480 By the way, I would come by and for a 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:26.120 few uh you know, shekels be able to have a 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:29.840 big bowl of this incredibly nutritious food, but one made 1:06:29.880 --> 1:06:33.840 with parts that other people overlooked. And I looked at 1:06:33.880 --> 1:06:36.080 my bowl. It was probably the third or fourth season 1:06:36.120 --> 1:06:38.640 of Bizarre Foods and I and I just started talking 1:06:38.680 --> 1:06:42.840 about what this bowl of food looked like to me. 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:47.840 And I didn't see, you know, intestines and livers and 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:52.080 hearts and lungs um and onions and hot chilies, uh 1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:57.680 and and coconut milk. I saw, you know, families and 1:06:57.720 --> 1:06:59.840 the struggle to put food on the table and not 1:07:00.040 --> 1:07:03.160 being able to afford anything else, and raising animals and 1:07:03.280 --> 1:07:05.840 keeping the the innards to yourself when you had to 1:07:05.880 --> 1:07:08.160 harvest them and sell them, uh so that you could, 1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:10.720 you know, buy some school books for your kid. And 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:14.400 I started to talk about Nicaraguan culture in you know, 1:07:15.120 --> 1:07:19.120 fourteen uh, the same way that Madam Koretsky talked about 1:07:19.680 --> 1:07:24.720 you know, Northern European culture in fifteen sixty eight, and 1:07:24.880 --> 1:07:27.000 I realized that it was the exact same thing. You 1:07:27.080 --> 1:07:30.040 have to look at something and get a snapshot of history. 1:07:30.040 --> 1:07:33.320 It's actually what drew me. And I'm not blowing smoke 1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:37.640 where I shouldn't. We've just met, but in full transparency, 1:07:37.720 --> 1:07:40.080 we have been emailing each other back and forth several 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:42.120 times over the last couple of years. It's one of 1:07:42.160 --> 1:07:45.640 the things that I loved about your newsletters that I'm 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:49.640 addicted to because you you do the same thing. You 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:53.120 draw inferences and are able to illuminate parts of our 1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:57.160 contemporary culture or do comparative cultural studies to the way 1:07:57.280 --> 1:07:59.280 things may have been thirty or forty years ago to 1:07:59.320 --> 1:08:02.640 the way they are now in talking about music, and 1:08:02.760 --> 1:08:06.320 I feel that I do the same thing, uh in 1:08:06.520 --> 1:08:09.400 with food. Maybe I'm also a paler version of you, 1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:13.120 although I am an art history major too. Are you 1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:18.799 really absolutely, oh my gosh, fantastic, But making it about you, 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:23.000 You're in college, you know, the next period of your life. Hey, 1:08:23.000 --> 1:08:26.799 are you working in restaurants? Be? Does that make it separate? 1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:30.920 You separate from the people? Advass or see you graduate? 1:08:31.160 --> 1:08:32.880 How do you get into the industry? And how do 1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:36.840 you fall off the edge with alcohol and drugs, etcetera. 1:08:36.920 --> 1:08:40.400 So that period, I was already a daily cocaine user 1:08:40.560 --> 1:08:44.600 and a a chipper, a weekend heroin user. By the 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:47.960 time I graduated college high school in the nineteen seventy nine, 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:51.880 I mean pillows every day, smoking weed every day, doing 1:08:51.920 --> 1:08:58.400 coke every day. Weekends are for uh, we're for sniffing heroin. 1:08:59.080 --> 1:09:03.479 And I had fallen in love with hallucinogenic mushrooms and 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:06.800 so two or three times a week I'm eating those. 1:09:07.120 --> 1:09:09.600 I'm a true New York City garbage head. Um. It 1:09:09.720 --> 1:09:17.560 was impossible to uh maintain the focus on my school work. Impossible. Um. 1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:20.040 After my first Tuesday after my freshman year in college, 1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:23.040 I was asked to take a mandatory semester off. UM. 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:29.120 So the summer of nineteen eighty I went to Italy 1:09:30.320 --> 1:09:35.840 and I worked for nine months uh in a restaurant. Lie. 1:09:36.240 --> 1:09:39.280 I worked for four months in a restaurant in Venice 1:09:39.400 --> 1:09:43.360 during their peak time, UH called a La Columba restaurants 1:09:43.360 --> 1:09:46.160 that's still there, uh, right around the corner from the 1:09:46.160 --> 1:09:51.799 tavernas La Finch uh stone's throw from Saint Mark's Place. 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:54.240 And I worked there for four or four and a 1:09:54.280 --> 1:09:57.200 half months, UM, and then I went to Paris and 1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:00.679 worked for at Last Center at a restaurant called Larca 1:10:00.760 --> 1:10:04.040 Strata uh, in the same building that now houses are 1:10:04.160 --> 1:10:08.599 Peg another very famous three star Michelin restaurant. A Larca 1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:11.000 Strata had three Michelin stars. At the time, there was 1:10:11.040 --> 1:10:13.800 no Italian How did you get these gigs? Well, those 1:10:13.840 --> 1:10:17.000 were the days. This is fascinating. I mean you talk 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:19.320 about a time shift. Those were the days when if 1:10:19.360 --> 1:10:22.720 you were an American culinarian, uh, you could knock on 1:10:22.760 --> 1:10:26.120 the back door of a fancy restaurant and asked to 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:29.439 work there, And if you were smart, you just said, 1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:33.760 I'll work for free, knowing that if you're good, they'll 1:10:33.760 --> 1:10:35.800 wind up paying you something. But at least they'll let 1:10:35.800 --> 1:10:38.200 you sleep on the banquets at night, or they have 1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:41.479 a place where people can sleep. I remember at one 1:10:41.479 --> 1:10:45.799 point at Alla Columba, I was sleeping in in literally 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:50.719 an attic of a of a farm. There were cows 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:52.400 living below me. And I was up in the attic. 1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:55.439 It was the best living. I slept like a baby 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:58.679 every single night, probably because I was so exhausted. Uh 1:10:58.720 --> 1:11:01.040 But but then the chef would pick me up in 1:11:01.080 --> 1:11:04.120 the morning and we'd walk to the vegetable market and 1:11:04.160 --> 1:11:06.519 the rialto seafood market, and we pick up all the 1:11:06.560 --> 1:11:09.360 stuff for the restaurants. And I learned about ingredients because 1:11:09.400 --> 1:11:13.479 I was the guy carrying the chef's stuff and wheeling 1:11:13.560 --> 1:11:17.439 it on this two wheeler through the cobblestone streets of Venice, 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:19.200 because I was the lowest guy in the totem pole. 1:11:19.479 --> 1:11:23.800 But as that uh well about to term nineteen year old, um, 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:28.120 I was learning about ingredients I've never seen before in America. Right, 1:11:28.280 --> 1:11:31.759 I'd never seen a razor clams as thin as a pencil. 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:34.760 I never knew to open them. You dip the end 1:11:34.800 --> 1:11:36.840 in a little pile of salt that you keep in 1:11:36.880 --> 1:11:39.120 a cup in your station, and they sort of open 1:11:39.240 --> 1:11:41.160 up for a second. You can run your finger through 1:11:41.200 --> 1:11:44.120 and not damage the raw razor clam, still keep them 1:11:44.120 --> 1:11:46.720 alive and remove them from the shell. I didn't know 1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:49.280 there were eight types of trevisa lettuce that we commonly 1:11:49.320 --> 1:11:52.599 call ridicio in this country. Um and that the tight 1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:54.920 head of ridicilo that we eat in this country was 1:11:55.080 --> 1:11:59.639 unknown to Italy. We actually genetically engineered it to the 1:11:59.640 --> 1:12:02.160 whole and tight use Americans like stuff where you get 1:12:02.160 --> 1:12:04.840 a lot of weight for your money, right, um. And 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:07.000 so I learned all this stuff in this restaurant. Then 1:12:07.040 --> 1:12:09.360 I went to Paris to stand knocked on a door. 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:14.759 So in those days, this is the late seventies, early eighties, 1:12:14.760 --> 1:12:18.160 you could actually do that. I was talking to Thomas Keller, 1:12:19.040 --> 1:12:22.720 one of the deans of American cooking and you know, 1:12:23.000 --> 1:12:26.439 arguably the most important chef of the last fifty years 1:12:26.479 --> 1:12:30.840 in America. Um and and again someone for whom he 1:12:30.880 --> 1:12:34.200 will still be in the books a hundred years from now. Um. 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:38.879 And I asked him about stagiers and interns from cooking schools. 1:12:39.080 --> 1:12:41.800 I said, how many applications do you get a year 1:12:42.240 --> 1:12:45.439 two stage and intern in your restaurants? Because if you 1:12:45.479 --> 1:12:47.400 could work for three or four months in a Thomas 1:12:47.479 --> 1:12:50.799 Keller restaurant, it gets you a much better, more plumb 1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:52.920 position at the next place that you move on to 1:12:53.080 --> 1:12:55.200 and it and it gives you connections to some of 1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:59.519 the best culinarians in the world. And uh, he said, well, 1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:02.439 we stopped counting fifteen years ago when we hit ten 1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:06.439 thousand applications a year. So that just shows you how 1:13:06.479 --> 1:13:09.360 popular food is. I went to the Culinary Institute of 1:13:09.360 --> 1:13:13.160 America at one point because I thought I should go 1:13:13.160 --> 1:13:16.600 to cooking school. And I didn't have a great experience 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:19.160 there on the on the day that I was I 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:21.559 was there, Um, I already knew a lot, had been 1:13:21.560 --> 1:13:25.240 cooking a lot, and and the CIA was you know 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.479 that there was no waiting list. I think now there's 1:13:27.520 --> 1:13:29.280 like a five year winning list to get into the 1:13:29.280 --> 1:13:32.320 c I A. I mean, it's just it's it's an incredible, 1:13:32.560 --> 1:13:38.800 incredible explosion in the food business in America on every 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:42.800 single front. Um, when I was cooking and coming up, 1:13:43.080 --> 1:13:44.680 and I think it was a good thing, because I 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:47.400 may have abandoned the thing I love more than anything 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:49.599 in the whole world if it had been more difficult 1:13:49.640 --> 1:13:52.639 for me. Um, I was such a horrific drug addict 1:13:52.640 --> 1:13:55.880 and alcoholic. I somehow and by the way, alcoholism at 1:13:55.880 --> 1:13:59.120 the level that I was, uh suffering from the disease 1:13:59.240 --> 1:14:04.960 is oftentimes exemplified by you know, gross irresponsibility and gross 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:08.320 responsibility at the same time, right, So I would show 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:12.840 up for work and kick ass and make myself literally indispensable, right, 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:17.240 I mean literally indispensable. Um. And then I would just 1:14:17.280 --> 1:14:20.040 disappear on a bender for three days, or steal a 1:14:20.120 --> 1:14:24.439 hundred dollars from the till, or take two bottles of vodka. 1:14:24.439 --> 1:14:27.519 And folks in the food business and the restaurants that 1:14:27.560 --> 1:14:29.479 I was working in, and by the way, some very 1:14:29.520 --> 1:14:32.000 good ones put up with this because I was the 1:14:32.000 --> 1:14:33.880 only guy that could put out two d orders of 1:14:33.960 --> 1:14:36.479 risotto on a Saturday night in three hours on only 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:39.519 four burners. Um. I remember one restaurant I was in 1:14:40.160 --> 1:14:43.160 hearing a discussion between the general manager and the owner. 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:45.680 The owner saying, you have to fire this guy, the 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:49.320 general manager saying to him, who's gonna do two hundred 1:14:49.400 --> 1:14:53.320 egg dishes on Sunday brunch? We don't have anyone to 1:14:53.439 --> 1:14:56.160 do that. So I the general manager, saying, I don't 1:14:56.280 --> 1:15:00.960 care that he steals bucks worth of booze from every weekend. 1:15:01.439 --> 1:15:04.640 You know, is he an addict? Sure? Is he you know, 1:15:04.680 --> 1:15:08.640 a reprehensible mess? Sure? Is he an alcoholic? Absolutely? Is 1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:10.679 he a thief? For sure? But we know what he's 1:15:10.720 --> 1:15:14.280 doing and he can cook the gosh darn eggs um 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:19.160 and eventually my food career. I cooked in some really 1:15:19.160 --> 1:15:21.920 great places and made quite a good name for myself 1:15:21.960 --> 1:15:23.840 in New York. Then the wheels came off and I 1:15:23.880 --> 1:15:27.439 became a homeless mess. I wound up trying to kill 1:15:27.479 --> 1:15:32.240 myself in a flop house hotel in January, uh, in 1:15:32.560 --> 1:15:35.680 New York City. Some friends found me, and a few 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:38.520 days later I woke up and I was in a 1:15:38.560 --> 1:15:44.480 hospital attached to what is now Hazel and Betty Ford. 1:15:45.200 --> 1:15:48.520 You say you tried to kill yourself, A little bit slower. 1:15:49.360 --> 1:15:51.759 You were in such a bad place. Was his heroine? 1:15:52.160 --> 1:15:54.320 You're in the floor. Give me a little more detail, 1:15:54.360 --> 1:15:57.080 a little more fot I kicked. I kicked hard drugs 1:15:57.120 --> 1:16:03.800 three years before I went homeless. Um. In negotiation with 1:16:04.479 --> 1:16:09.120 my friends, my girlfriend, my parents, Oh, the problem is 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:11.599 hard drugs. I'll get rid of those, right. The problem 1:16:11.680 --> 1:16:14.120 wasn't hard drugs. The problem was me. The problem was 1:16:14.439 --> 1:16:17.160 I couldn't handle taking anything that affected me from the 1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:19.880 neck up. Uh. But the drugs and alcohol are just 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:23.439 a symptom. I I had a life problem. I had 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:27.519 a responsibility problem. I had a spiritual illness. I was 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:32.439 I was soul sick. I was I was incapable of 1:16:32.479 --> 1:16:36.280 living life on life's terms. I I I I didn't 1:16:36.320 --> 1:16:39.760 need to be rehabilitated. I needed to be hubilitated. I 1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:43.760 didn't have any of it. So um, little by little, 1:16:43.760 --> 1:16:46.799 I gave up everything, and then eventually I just got 1:16:46.920 --> 1:16:49.080 you know, I went from that phase. It's it's a 1:16:49.160 --> 1:16:54.000 very unique thing for alcoholics and drug addicts. You you 1:16:54.000 --> 1:16:56.760 you're in a phase where you tell people, when confronted 1:16:56.800 --> 1:17:00.679 with the truth, you know, by by people who love you, Hey, 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:03.599 I love you, You're my best friend, You're you're you're 1:17:03.600 --> 1:17:06.200 a mess, and you've done X, Y and Z, and 1:17:06.240 --> 1:17:08.080 you got fired from your job, and your wife is 1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:09.960 leaving you, and the dog won't talk to you, and 1:17:10.000 --> 1:17:12.320 you you're you've got no money in the bank account. 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:14.559 And the police said all this stuff is you have 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:17.720 all these horrific things that have happened to you, your consequences, 1:17:18.120 --> 1:17:21.280 and you sit there and and you deny it. Oh, oh, 1:17:21.800 --> 1:17:23.960 well here's why, and that's not really the case. And 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:26.800 well I wasn't really arrested. And she I really don't 1:17:26.800 --> 1:17:28.639 want to have that relationship with her, So I'm happy 1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:31.200 she's out of my life. And you just make every 1:17:31.200 --> 1:17:35.840 excuse in the book. And I went from that place 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:40.880 about four years before I sobered up, to a place 1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:43.559 where if you confronted me with those things, I told 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:45.559 you to go screw yourself and get out of my way. 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:48.800 I didn't care. I didn't care that I was that way. 1:17:49.360 --> 1:17:52.080 And then eventually you get a case of what in 1:17:52.160 --> 1:17:55.720 recovery we call the buckets, where you're just like, you 1:17:55.800 --> 1:17:59.479 don't care. Fuck it. And at that point I did 1:17:59.600 --> 1:18:02.920 lower and lower and lower and lower, and crossed lines 1:18:02.960 --> 1:18:07.960 and barriers, uh that I never thought. I never thought 1:18:08.040 --> 1:18:10.519 I would I would cross. I never thought I would 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:13.760 become a petty, petty criminal. That wasn't when when I 1:18:13.840 --> 1:18:19.200 was ten fifteen years old, that wasn't in my Hey, someday, 1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:22.120 I want to be so desperate that I'm gonna stand 1:18:22.160 --> 1:18:25.080 in the freezing cold outside of nightclubs in New York 1:18:25.120 --> 1:18:28.000 that I know, and when a drunk business guy in 1:18:28.040 --> 1:18:31.080 an expensive custom suit, because I could recognize one right 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:34.719 go stumbling by. If he's not with any other friends, 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.360 I'm gonna follow him, push him into the alley, grab 1:18:37.400 --> 1:18:40.920 his wallet, and run, or I'm gonna steal purses off 1:18:40.960 --> 1:18:44.320 the backs of restaurant chairs on a summer's day and 1:18:44.360 --> 1:18:48.200 Madison Avenue, run to the wall at Central Park, vaulted 1:18:48.640 --> 1:18:51.080 and head down to Alphabet City and sell the credit 1:18:51.120 --> 1:18:54.760 cards and passport and get some cash to to get 1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:57.640 high with. I never thought I was going to be 1:18:57.720 --> 1:18:59.639 that person. I never thought I would be the person 1:19:00.080 --> 1:19:02.559 whose parents would think they were dead. And I knew 1:19:02.600 --> 1:19:05.840 they thought that I was. It wasn't around, but didn't care. 1:19:05.880 --> 1:19:09.400 I'd rather just keep drinking and drugging endlessly. Wake up 1:19:09.400 --> 1:19:13.240 and use pass out, wake up and use pass out. UM. 1:19:13.280 --> 1:19:17.160 Eventually I got UH evicted from my There is a 1:19:17.240 --> 1:19:19.120 Sheriff of New York by the way. This was are 1:19:19.120 --> 1:19:26.920 a sheriff of Los Angeles, UM the UH. Shockingly, the 1:19:26.960 --> 1:19:30.800 Sheriff of New York UM knocked on my door one 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:35.599 day with an eviction notice, and I wound up going 1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:38.559 down to the bar. I had no one to call 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:43.200 for help. There was there was not a single human 1:19:43.280 --> 1:19:46.040 being whose number I could call. There was not a 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:51.280 single human being who would take my call. UM. I 1:19:51.320 --> 1:19:53.920 had burned every bridge, and so I went down to 1:19:54.080 --> 1:19:58.200 the bar where I drank. This is by the way 1:19:58.240 --> 1:20:01.160 around the corner from the port authority a shot and 1:20:01.400 --> 1:20:04.240 beer bar that is the last stop on the on 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:07.639 the subway for uh many people. Most of the regular 1:20:07.680 --> 1:20:10.479 customers in there just died of alcoholism, were wound up 1:20:10.800 --> 1:20:14.759 in institutions. And um, I would drink with these people 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:16.799 till four or five in the morning. Then they closed 1:20:16.800 --> 1:20:19.519 the place for half an hour, spray it down, and 1:20:19.520 --> 1:20:21.760 then let you back in. And I went down there 1:20:21.760 --> 1:20:24.240 and this this old drunk named a J. I can 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:28.080 see him. I've never forgotten what he looked like that night. 1:20:28.120 --> 1:20:31.080 He didn't have all his teeth, he had a big beard, glasses. 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:34.160 He was the loudmouth guy, but he was kind of 1:20:34.160 --> 1:20:36.200 like the ringleader, was the cock of the walk in 1:20:36.280 --> 1:20:39.680 that bar. And he's like, what's up? And I was 1:20:39.760 --> 1:20:42.719 just like God evicted. And he said, sleep with us tonight. 1:20:42.760 --> 1:20:44.600 And I said, where are you sleeping? He goes, we 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:48.560 have an abandoned building down on Sullivan Street that were squatting, 1:20:49.560 --> 1:20:52.280 and uh, I said, okay, I had a by the 1:20:52.280 --> 1:20:55.360 way that I had a duffel bag of dirty clothes 1:20:55.400 --> 1:20:58.479 with me, and so I spent eleven months of my 1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:00.960 life sleeping on that pile of dirty clothes in an 1:21:01.000 --> 1:21:07.440 abandoned building on Sullivan Street. Uh, cement casements in the windows. Um. 1:21:07.479 --> 1:21:12.040 It was when I look back on it, it was awful, 1:21:12.240 --> 1:21:15.360 and to me it was completely okay at the time. 1:21:15.920 --> 1:21:19.440 I used to steal a bottle of comic cleanser, uh 1:21:19.479 --> 1:21:23.120 every couple of days at the bodega down the street. Uh, 1:21:23.280 --> 1:21:26.599 you know, put some comic cleanser in your jacket pocket 1:21:26.760 --> 1:21:29.360 by a pack of smokes kind of thing, and then 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:34.559 sprinkle a circle of comic cleanser around, uh my pile 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:37.400 of dirty clothes so the rats and roaches wouldn't crawl 1:21:37.439 --> 1:21:41.160 over me when I passed out. Um. And eventually one 1:21:41.240 --> 1:21:43.240 day I woke up there and I just realized there's 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:46.639 winners and losers in this world. Will Actually, right after 1:21:46.680 --> 1:21:50.880 New Year's Eve or New Year's Day, I woke up 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:55.320 there and I just thought, I've I'm irredeemable and I'm hopeless. 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:58.640 This is I literally should just end it all. I 1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:01.840 was in so much pain getting up every morning that 1:22:02.600 --> 1:22:06.920 hitting the bottle even you know, chugging at it, and 1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:09.000 you know, you know, like I said, I kicked the 1:22:09.120 --> 1:22:11.679 hard drugs, but I was still drinking booze and smoking 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:14.320 with and drinking. By the way, a lot, a lot 1:22:14.800 --> 1:22:17.160 large volumes of alcohol. I was very turned out. It 1:22:17.240 --> 1:22:18.640 was very sick. I found out when I got to 1:22:18.680 --> 1:22:21.360 the hospital unit at Hazelden I needed to be there 1:22:21.400 --> 1:22:23.840 for four or five days and said the usual one 1:22:23.920 --> 1:22:26.439 or two because they were very concerned about my body 1:22:26.680 --> 1:22:30.879 giving out, UM, my organs, my my liver and kidney's 1:22:30.960 --> 1:22:35.800 most importantly. UH. And I just decided that I was 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:38.880 I was gonna end it all. And I stole some 1:22:38.960 --> 1:22:41.759 jewelry from my godmother and I went in and I 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:45.080 hocked it in New Jersey. By the way, huge mistake. 1:22:45.320 --> 1:22:49.000 Never steal something in one town, cross the state lines 1:22:49.040 --> 1:22:51.519 and hocket another and leave a paper trail with your 1:22:51.600 --> 1:22:58.000 name on it. UH. That's very typical alcoholic behavior. I 1:22:58.040 --> 1:23:00.719 wound up facing that charge when I was two years 1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:06.000 sober in Minnesota, UH, and pled guilty to it because 1:23:06.040 --> 1:23:09.280 I did it, and recovery had taught me to answer 1:23:09.360 --> 1:23:11.759 for the stuff that I did, and I was facing 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:14.559 a couple of years in the workhouse at at best, 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:17.479 and I wound up getting an action in contemplation of 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:19.880 dismissal because of the service work that I had done. 1:23:20.160 --> 1:23:24.160 Thanks to the loving community here in Minnesota, that got me. Well, um, 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:28.080 but when when I went to kill myself and I well, 1:23:28.120 --> 1:23:30.479 I took this money that I from the jewelry at Hawks, 1:23:30.560 --> 1:23:34.000 and I went to the San Pedro Hotel and I 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:36.479 just bought a ton of vodka and just went into 1:23:36.479 --> 1:23:39.280 this hotel and just started chugging booze around the clock, 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:42.000 knowing I just knew in my gut my body's gonna 1:23:42.520 --> 1:23:46.920 gonna quit. I was very, very sick, and I drank around. 1:23:47.000 --> 1:23:48.800 I know I was there for at least three days, 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:53.040 but no more than five. Uh and uh based on 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:57.120 you know, the information my friends had about that they 1:23:57.160 --> 1:23:59.120 got from the hotel person about when I got in 1:23:59.200 --> 1:24:03.479 and when they came around me. And uh, two days later, 1:24:03.560 --> 1:24:13.799 I was on the plane one way ticket to Minnesota. Okay, 1:24:13.800 --> 1:24:16.280 a couple of things. One, you know, just like the 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:19.919 TV show Intervention, someone can need to go to rehab, 1:24:20.720 --> 1:24:24.320 but they either don't want to or they go and 1:24:24.439 --> 1:24:30.040 they jump. So, okay, what's your thought process? And then 1:24:30.120 --> 1:24:33.240 you get out your Minnesota, how do you get back 1:24:33.240 --> 1:24:37.120 into the food world? Super super easy, I mean easy 1:24:37.160 --> 1:24:41.080 answer to both, but I guess I'm really talking beyond that. 1:24:42.840 --> 1:24:44.640 You end up building let me let me get to 1:24:44.680 --> 1:24:48.240 my question a little more specifically, you end up building 1:24:48.280 --> 1:24:53.479 this empire. Most people, when asked that question, they say, well, 1:24:53.479 --> 1:24:57.120 it just happened. Okay, I'm sophisticated enough to know it 1:24:57.280 --> 1:25:01.080 never just tapped. It was very intentional on very so 1:25:01.240 --> 1:25:06.600 walk me through accepting rehabilitation and then deciding that you 1:25:06.720 --> 1:25:11.599 wanted to be more than just a chef and a restaurant. Um. 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:15.080 Really very simple story. Um. It was not my first 1:25:15.080 --> 1:25:19.440 go round at recovery. The difference was that that particular 1:25:20.439 --> 1:25:23.320 uh time, I would have sobered up in a liquor store. 1:25:23.400 --> 1:25:25.439 I was sick and tired of being sick and tired, 1:25:26.000 --> 1:25:30.120 and I had just this tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little 1:25:30.479 --> 1:25:34.719 light that came under my door, and I just focused 1:25:34.720 --> 1:25:37.400 on that little tiny light. And I had a series 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:40.800 of experiences my first thirty days in recovery sufficient to 1:25:40.880 --> 1:25:45.240 get me to point C, D and E. I went 1:25:45.320 --> 1:25:47.519 to a half I had a good experience in my 1:25:47.640 --> 1:25:50.479 primary treatment at Hazel, and I went to I. I 1:25:50.560 --> 1:25:52.360 just said yes to everything I was told to do. 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:55.800 I got a sponsor, I went to meetings, I went 1:25:56.120 --> 1:25:59.200 lived in the halfway house first seven months. Uh, they 1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:01.200 told me get a job. I got a job washing 1:26:01.280 --> 1:26:08.799 toilets uh in the the workhouse and jail system in St. 1:26:08.840 --> 1:26:13.400 Downtown St. Paul. That was so horrific a job. I 1:26:13.439 --> 1:26:16.600 got another job two days later as a dishwasher in 1:26:16.640 --> 1:26:19.120 a coffee shop. Now a coffee shop here in Minnesota 1:26:19.160 --> 1:26:21.800 kind of like once in New York. Uh is a 1:26:21.880 --> 1:26:24.360 place not like a Starbucks, but a place that opens 1:26:24.360 --> 1:26:27.040 at six am and serves breakfast and lunch all day long. 1:26:27.439 --> 1:26:29.479 And they have lots of hot coffee and just sit 1:26:29.560 --> 1:26:34.000 on stools and UH. Sometimes that the employees who worked 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:35.840 in the kitchen, there were two of them, wouldn't show up. 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:38.720 I showed up every day, uh for that job. It 1:26:38.800 --> 1:26:41.160 was the best job I ever had. I never wanted 1:26:41.160 --> 1:26:43.559 a job so much in my life is that job. 1:26:44.200 --> 1:26:49.559 And I treated it like like gold. And uh when 1:26:49.560 --> 1:26:52.439 they were sick, I would cook or or they wouldn't 1:26:52.439 --> 1:26:56.679 show and I would cook and the owners were like, Wow, 1:26:56.720 --> 1:26:59.920 you're sandwich is looking really good today. In the soup 1:27:00.040 --> 1:27:04.120 seems really good. And uh so I got, you know, 1:27:04.160 --> 1:27:06.599 a little bit of a raise and some preferential hours. 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.080 But I was just very anonymous and going back to 1:27:10.160 --> 1:27:17.280 my halfway house every night. And eventually I decided to 1:27:17.280 --> 1:27:20.479 become a dishwasher at a better restaurant, and my plan 1:27:20.600 --> 1:27:22.080 was to still to go back to New York when 1:27:22.080 --> 1:27:24.040 I got out of the halfway house, and so I 1:27:24.080 --> 1:27:28.559 went to this uh, French restaurant in that had just opened. 1:27:28.800 --> 1:27:31.640 It was like two days old. And I knew that 1:27:31.760 --> 1:27:35.920 the restaurant was owned by two French guys in New 1:27:36.000 --> 1:27:39.040 York that I knew from partying days in sag Harbord. 1:27:39.680 --> 1:27:42.320 They owned a restaurant in New York of the same name, 1:27:42.560 --> 1:27:45.040 Cafe and de Ti in the Theater District. And they 1:27:45.080 --> 1:27:47.280 had opened a Cafe and de Ti in the Fauchet 1:27:47.439 --> 1:27:50.040 Tower right around the corner from the Theater District here 1:27:50.080 --> 1:27:55.120 in the Twin Cities. Um and uh, you know, so 1:27:55.160 --> 1:27:58.360 I knew that it would be a good place to work, 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:00.880 and so I went there and I got a job 1:28:00.920 --> 1:28:03.679 as a dishwasher. And one day one of the cooks 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:08.880 didn't show up for work, and um, it was really 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:10.920 pretty straightforward. I went up to the owner and the 1:28:11.000 --> 1:28:12.600 chef and I said, look, I can put out that 1:28:12.640 --> 1:28:15.479 guy's station. And it was the grill station onion, soup, 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:20.839 steak free. It's you know, a couple of appetizers, scargo 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:22.720 went under the broiler there. It was a very very 1:28:22.720 --> 1:28:25.280 simple station. It did a couple of specials that day, 1:28:25.280 --> 1:28:27.679 and the lunch menu a chicken pie ard, a couple 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:31.559 other things. Um, but you know it's ten twelve items 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:33.479 on the menu came off of that station. It was 1:28:33.520 --> 1:28:37.360 the easiest station I thought in the restaurant um. And 1:28:37.640 --> 1:28:39.600 I've been watching for a couple of weeks. You know, 1:28:39.600 --> 1:28:42.559 as the dishwasher, you're running down and grabbing bus tubs 1:28:42.560 --> 1:28:45.760 of pots and pants from underneath the counters where the 1:28:45.840 --> 1:28:49.120 chefs are cooking. The cooks are cooking, and you know, 1:28:49.400 --> 1:28:51.680 my perch in the dish room, I could see what 1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:53.760 all the people were doing. And frequently, when there's no 1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:56.320 more dishes to watch your peeling potatoes, are working on 1:28:56.720 --> 1:28:59.840 prep for the chef. And so you know, I'm just 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:03.479 oiling an anonymity. They're very blissfully by the way. This 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:05.680 guy gets sick. They don't have a choice. They have 1:29:05.800 --> 1:29:08.479 to let me cook. And they're like, well, the dish washer, okay, 1:29:08.520 --> 1:29:09.720 keep an eye in and we'll take a couple of 1:29:09.800 --> 1:29:12.360 dishes away from you so it's easier. I'm like, I 1:29:12.400 --> 1:29:13.880 can do it. I can do it. They're like, well, 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:15.560 do you know how to grill the salmon. It's like, 1:29:15.560 --> 1:29:16.840 I don't know how to I know how to grill 1:29:16.880 --> 1:29:21.080 the salmon. Um. And after the lunch shift ended, the 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:23.680 owner of the restaurant, I remember, opened the door to 1:29:23.760 --> 1:29:26.479 his office and as I was walking by, and I 1:29:26.560 --> 1:29:29.400 remember just seeing his finger and I walked in the 1:29:29.439 --> 1:29:31.559 office and he he sat me down and he said, 1:29:31.600 --> 1:29:33.880 can you answer me one? I have one question for you? 1:29:33.960 --> 1:29:36.720 And I said sure. He said, can you explain to 1:29:36.760 --> 1:29:42.080 me why my dishwasher just put out food better than 1:29:42.120 --> 1:29:45.719 the chef in my restaurant does? And why when everything 1:29:45.760 --> 1:29:47.720 went to ship on the line in the middle of 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:50.080 lunch because they were packed. I mean they were just 1:29:51.000 --> 1:29:55.519 murdered with business, um, and with lunch, you're just slammed 1:29:55.520 --> 1:29:57.599 all at once. They were doing a full second turn, 1:29:57.720 --> 1:30:01.600 which is how popular it was. But great, there was 1:30:01.640 --> 1:30:04.599 no French bistro in that town. Every rest every city 1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:07.200 needs a French bistro in a big seat like Minneapolis, 1:30:07.280 --> 1:30:12.760 right in downtown. It was quite famous. Um. And I said, 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:16.080 I've worked in restaurants all my life and I'm just 1:30:16.200 --> 1:30:18.479 here in Minnesota for a while. And the guy said, 1:30:18.479 --> 1:30:24.000 why And I told him and he said, well, he says, I, 1:30:24.000 --> 1:30:26.519 I'll make you the chef in this restaurant. And I said, well, 1:30:26.560 --> 1:30:30.680 first of all, you're you're offering that to me immediately 1:30:30.760 --> 1:30:33.240 shows me that you don't know what you're doing. I said, 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:35.040 so I'm less inclined to take that job. But I 1:30:35.120 --> 1:30:36.640 also can't take that job because I'm living in a 1:30:36.640 --> 1:30:38.400 halfway house. I have to go home and I have 1:30:38.439 --> 1:30:42.040 to be there every night at five o'clock, right And uh, 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:45.080 I said, but I love my my job dishwashing here 1:30:45.080 --> 1:30:48.640 and I'd like to keep it. And he said, uh, well, 1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:50.120 I'm gonna talk to the chef. We're gonna have you 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:52.519 prepping and do it. So I was washing dishes, I 1:30:52.560 --> 1:30:55.479 was waiting some tables, I was prepping and uh. I 1:30:55.560 --> 1:30:57.720 worked there for four months and then I got out 1:30:57.720 --> 1:31:01.080 of the halfway house and I needed to earn money 1:31:01.160 --> 1:31:03.599 to put a roof over my head. And I went 1:31:03.640 --> 1:31:05.719 back to him and I said, is that job offer 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:08.920 still available? And he said yes, and I said, great, 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:12.680 I'll take it. And he said, do you want to 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:16.240 negotiate salary? I said not at all. I said, you 1:31:16.280 --> 1:31:18.800 pay me whatever you think is fair. He said, you're 1:31:18.880 --> 1:31:21.519 kidding me, and I said no. I said, you're gonna 1:31:21.560 --> 1:31:24.120 pay me more three months from now and six months 1:31:24.160 --> 1:31:25.880 from more, but you start me whatever you want, because 1:31:25.880 --> 1:31:29.080 remember I'm going from dishwasher at six dollars an hour 1:31:29.240 --> 1:31:31.839 whatever it was back then, to like the highest salary 1:31:31.920 --> 1:31:35.160 position in the restaurant. Um. But I also knew that 1:31:35.200 --> 1:31:37.840 I could change that restaurant and make it great, uh, 1:31:37.880 --> 1:31:40.719 and that the current team there was was not capable 1:31:40.760 --> 1:31:43.360 of that. And I told him I just need these 1:31:43.400 --> 1:31:45.400 These are the three nights off that I can't work 1:31:45.400 --> 1:31:47.639 because I need to go to my meetings. I want 1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:50.880 permission to have a daytime meeting from noon, sorry, from 1:31:50.920 --> 1:31:53.120 two to three o'clock, three days a week in the 1:31:53.160 --> 1:31:56.320 back of the dining room. He said sure, And I 1:31:56.400 --> 1:31:59.519 negotiated some other stuff all around my recovery, stuff that 1:31:59.600 --> 1:32:02.479 my my sponsor in the twelve step program that I 1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:06.280 was attending, had insisted on, by the way, and uh. 1:32:06.479 --> 1:32:09.120 And that was it. And after five or six years 1:32:09.160 --> 1:32:11.600 of you know, that restaurant, we within a year I 1:32:11.680 --> 1:32:15.280 replaced everyone and was arguably I mean not my words, 1:32:15.360 --> 1:32:18.200 wasn't are the magazines and newspapers you know called it 1:32:18.240 --> 1:32:22.040 the best restaurant in town. It was. Uh. We did 1:32:22.080 --> 1:32:26.000 so well it allowed the managing partner in Minneapolis to 1:32:26.040 --> 1:32:29.040 buy the place back after I've been there a year, 1:32:29.120 --> 1:32:31.160 from the French partners in New York who didn't want 1:32:31.160 --> 1:32:34.400 to run it or own a restaurant in Minneapolis anyway. 1:32:34.560 --> 1:32:36.519 UM and so I felt very good about what we 1:32:36.560 --> 1:32:39.360 achieved there. And then I decided. I had a moment 1:32:39.360 --> 1:32:44.080 of clarity about five six years in. I realized I 1:32:44.120 --> 1:32:47.200 was telling stories with my food and telling stories to 1:32:47.240 --> 1:32:51.639 my staff, but I felt my stories needed a bigger audience. 1:32:51.920 --> 1:32:56.120 And I wasn't going to be the best version of 1:32:56.160 --> 1:33:00.599 myself if I stayed cooking in a restaurant as much 1:33:00.640 --> 1:33:09.760 as I love them. And this is ninete eight nine nine, UM, 1:33:09.920 --> 1:33:14.040 and I left. I resigned, and I got a job, 1:33:14.160 --> 1:33:18.920 an internship, unpaid at a radio station, a magazine, the 1:33:18.960 --> 1:33:25.240 Big Glossy Monthly Minneapolis State Paul Magazine, Radio State, big 1:33:25.320 --> 1:33:29.960 radio station in town doing a weekend radio show for 1:33:30.000 --> 1:33:34.879 an hour on food. And a TV station, a local Uh. 1:33:35.880 --> 1:33:39.120 It was a up N station after it was Channel nine. 1:33:39.160 --> 1:33:41.240 It was an independence In those days in the Midwest, 1:33:41.280 --> 1:33:45.360 there was still radio independent TV stations owned by single people. 1:33:45.840 --> 1:33:49.439 Like a person owned this station and programmed it with 1:33:49.439 --> 1:33:52.720 stuff from all the other stuff that just doesn't exist. 1:33:52.760 --> 1:33:54.880 And I don't think there's a TV station like that 1:33:54.960 --> 1:33:59.759 left in America. But Stu Swartz owned this, this station 1:33:59.800 --> 1:34:01.720 that him a up N station, then a Fox O 1:34:01.880 --> 1:34:06.040 and O, UM and I started doing their morning. I 1:34:06.120 --> 1:34:08.519 was a food feature reporter and once the week I 1:34:08.520 --> 1:34:12.519 would do a little food recipe thing. And after ninety 1:34:12.560 --> 1:34:14.519 days of working for free for all of them, I just, 1:34:15.240 --> 1:34:18.200 I mean, it's my it's no secret. Get a job 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:20.960 for free, make yourself indispensable, the wind up paying you. 1:34:21.360 --> 1:34:26.519 UM and I just I very much had a one, 1:34:26.680 --> 1:34:30.559 five and ten year plan, and I just put you know, 1:34:32.200 --> 1:34:34.799 my dream wasn't a dream, it was a goal because 1:34:34.840 --> 1:34:38.599 I had actual steps leading up to what it would 1:34:38.600 --> 1:34:41.760 take to achieve my goal. I wanted to have a 1:34:41.840 --> 1:34:47.679 TV show that broadcast internationally talking about food and culture 1:34:48.080 --> 1:34:51.080 as a unifying element in a world that I felt 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:53.760 we were only talking about the things that divided us. 1:34:54.400 --> 1:34:59.639 And I I, if you try to sell that show, 1:34:59.680 --> 1:35:02.040 no one's go to Bube. So I knew I had 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:03.600 to invent a hook. So I sort of sold a 1:35:03.640 --> 1:35:07.720 Trojan Horse UM and I the hook that I created was, 1:35:07.880 --> 1:35:10.439 you know, fat white guy goes around the world, eats 1:35:10.479 --> 1:35:12.960 bugs and sort of exaggerating, but you you get where 1:35:12.960 --> 1:35:16.880 I'm going with this. And the network said, okay, great, okay, 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:19.559 but a little bit slower. Which network? And this was 1:35:19.640 --> 1:35:23.920 literally your first pitch other than Stu Schwartz station. Yeah, 1:35:24.080 --> 1:35:27.880 well it wasn't my first, UM, but it kind of 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:32.120 was my It was my only. Uh I, So I'm working. 1:35:33.040 --> 1:35:36.559 My goal was to be good enough at the TV station, 1:35:36.600 --> 1:35:38.880 the radio station, the magazine to put together a deck 1:35:39.040 --> 1:35:42.519 on myself. And with the TV work, I could put 1:35:42.520 --> 1:35:45.879 together a real and if I was doing food feature 1:35:45.880 --> 1:35:48.439 reporting and interviewing, and I was like, you know, Al 1:35:48.520 --> 1:35:52.000 Franken was had returned to Minnesota, was doing a radio 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:54.479 show and writing these books. So his very first book 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:56.559 came out and he came on and cooked with me. 1:35:56.800 --> 1:35:59.200 So I snipped that clip out and I went out 1:35:59.200 --> 1:36:01.479 to this farm and did a package. You know, because 1:36:01.479 --> 1:36:04.160 I learned, I created my own syllabus. I wanted to 1:36:04.240 --> 1:36:06.720 learn how to be in front of a camera, edit 1:36:07.320 --> 1:36:10.400 with a cameraman. I needed to know about cameras and 1:36:10.520 --> 1:36:13.439 lighting and I just had to learn the basic stuff 1:36:13.439 --> 1:36:15.080 of the business. And the only way to do that 1:36:15.160 --> 1:36:17.400 is do it in live local news. There's no other 1:36:17.439 --> 1:36:20.840 place to do it, right. And then I had enough 1:36:20.960 --> 1:36:25.200 stuff and I started trying to take meetings, um, but 1:36:25.280 --> 1:36:26.760 no one would meet with me. I was just a 1:36:26.800 --> 1:36:30.679 guy with an idea, right. Uh. But eventually I weaseled 1:36:30.720 --> 1:36:34.559 my way into enough doors and uh that I got 1:36:34.600 --> 1:36:37.679 the attention of some people here in town who were 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:42.400 producing shows for h G TV local production companies, and 1:36:42.439 --> 1:36:45.320 so I became the in house chef. I was doing 1:36:46.040 --> 1:36:50.160 episodes a year on Typical Mary Ellen, which was an 1:36:50.320 --> 1:36:54.719 HDTV home tips show early days of h G and 1:36:54.920 --> 1:36:59.639 on a syndicated program called Rebecca's Garden. And so then 1:36:59.680 --> 1:37:03.120 I had clips of myself on nationally syndicated TV shows, 1:37:03.920 --> 1:37:06.559 and so that I took that and sent it around 1:37:06.640 --> 1:37:12.760 and eventually it caught the eye of a first year employee, 1:37:13.120 --> 1:37:17.360 the lowest person on the totem pole at Food Network, 1:37:17.479 --> 1:37:21.040 by the name of Alison Page. Alison Page wound up 1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:24.680 running Food Network twenty years later and is now the 1:37:24.800 --> 1:37:29.439 runs Magnolia Network, the partnership between Chip and Joanna Gaines 1:37:29.560 --> 1:37:33.439 and Discovery, and she is one of the smartest and 1:37:34.400 --> 1:37:37.559 best human beings in the TV business. Um, and I 1:37:37.560 --> 1:37:41.280 got to meet with her and uh, she said, I 1:37:41.320 --> 1:37:43.320 don't know if I can help. I know, I'm literally 1:37:43.320 --> 1:37:45.040 the person here was the least amount of juice. But 1:37:45.080 --> 1:37:47.080 I'm gonna tell them that you're great and you've got 1:37:47.080 --> 1:37:49.679 great tape. She did. She actually told them to try 1:37:49.680 --> 1:37:52.680 to do something with me, and it of course they 1:37:52.680 --> 1:37:57.240 said no, uh, but she did tell me. Uh, she 1:37:57.280 --> 1:37:59.360 gave me one great piece of advice. She said, look, 1:37:59.600 --> 1:38:01.559 if you come on Food Network, you're gonna be on 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:04.519 Saturday mornings and there's gonna be there's twenty other shows 1:38:04.560 --> 1:38:07.400 being tried out then. And I said, well, my show's 1:38:07.400 --> 1:38:09.559 difference about Traveling is that she goes, yeah, why don't 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:13.439 you talk to Travel Channel. Travel Channel is just hired 1:38:13.479 --> 1:38:16.360 a new president and they're trying to change and it 1:38:16.479 --> 1:38:18.519 really sort of hasn't been put out there a lot, 1:38:19.760 --> 1:38:24.240 but they're they're they're going away from unhosted programs and 1:38:24.280 --> 1:38:28.280 they're gonna start doing hosted shows. And that was radical 1:38:28.360 --> 1:38:31.400 Travel Channel at that time. This is about two years 1:38:31.479 --> 1:38:34.880 three years before uh, the first episode of Bizarre Foods. 1:38:34.880 --> 1:38:38.759 There was just like World's Best bathrooms, world sexiest beaches, 1:38:38.880 --> 1:38:41.920 world's you know, biggest houses, all that kind of stuff, 1:38:41.960 --> 1:38:46.639 all unhosted. Um. So I started knocking on the because 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:49.840 I'd rather be one of my business gurus taught me 1:38:49.880 --> 1:38:51.800 a long time ago, better to be the only than 1:38:51.840 --> 1:38:56.840 be the best. So I decided that I wanted to 1:38:56.880 --> 1:39:00.599 be the only food guy on Travel Channel. I wound 1:39:00.680 --> 1:39:03.559 up being one year late by the time they bought 1:39:03.600 --> 1:39:05.360 the show, but it wound up being good for me 1:39:05.400 --> 1:39:09.080 because that other person was Anthony Bourdain. Um. But I 1:39:09.120 --> 1:39:11.080 went and I just all I do is I focused 1:39:11.080 --> 1:39:14.200 on Travel Channel. But at this point I'm a I'm 1:39:14.400 --> 1:39:16.479 known to people in the business because I'm on two 1:39:16.600 --> 1:39:19.120 nationally syndicated shows and sort of like I'm only doing 1:39:19.200 --> 1:39:22.160 five minutes an hour on someone else's show, but I'm 1:39:22.160 --> 1:39:25.680 a regular, right. So I finally got someone to meet 1:39:25.720 --> 1:39:28.680 with me a Travel Channel. I made a tape on 1:39:28.760 --> 1:39:31.760 my own. They didn't look at it for six or 1:39:31.880 --> 1:39:35.559 nine months. Meanwhile, they hire Samantha Brown to host a show. 1:39:36.040 --> 1:39:38.840 They buy Tony Show a Cooks Tour, put it on 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:42.320 for a year, and then wind up doing uh no 1:39:42.439 --> 1:39:49.840 reservations with him, uh and uh one day uh. The 1:39:49.840 --> 1:39:52.960 the head of the network, uh, finds my disc in 1:39:53.000 --> 1:39:57.120 his briefcase. This is a true story, and he hadn't 1:39:57.160 --> 1:39:59.800 watched it, and he'd run out of content and others 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:01.479 up to do when he was stuck in an airport 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:03.920 and he slid it into his computer in the days 1:40:04.000 --> 1:40:07.320 when for those who are younger, discs actually could go 1:40:07.360 --> 1:40:09.800 into your computer in the side. There's a little port 1:40:09.960 --> 1:40:13.320 that opened up, and he watched it, and he really 1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:15.960 liked me and the show. And I got an invitation 1:40:16.000 --> 1:40:20.840 to go to Discovery headquarters in Bethesda, Uh, Maryland and 1:40:20.920 --> 1:40:23.880 pitch my idea to the head of the network, Pat 1:40:23.960 --> 1:40:26.160 Young and about ten other people in the room. Okay, 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:30.679 just as an intermediary point, why Bizarre Foods. I didn't 1:40:30.720 --> 1:40:32.600 name it. I had a worse name for it. It 1:40:32.640 --> 1:40:35.599 would have died if I had been allowed to name 1:40:35.640 --> 1:40:39.759 the show. But the wee relevant of the moniker. Well 1:40:40.000 --> 1:40:43.360 what here here, here's what Here's what I came up with. 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:47.200 I walked in that room and I told him, I said, 1:40:47.320 --> 1:40:50.040 you know, here's you know, the Wandering Spoon or whatever 1:40:50.120 --> 1:40:52.599 horrible show that I had. I'm going to go into 1:40:52.600 --> 1:40:56.120 countries and cultures and I'm going to tell stories through 1:40:56.200 --> 1:40:59.680 food about their culture to illuminate our commonalities and not 1:40:59.760 --> 1:41:03.240 dwell in our differences. I'm going to show viewers that 1:41:03.439 --> 1:41:08.400 through fun and entertaining food series, uh, we can learn 1:41:08.479 --> 1:41:11.519 to practice better patients, tolerance, and understanding with each other. 1:41:11.720 --> 1:41:13.920 Because at the end of the day, sitting down to 1:41:13.960 --> 1:41:16.880 a meal with a family in Chicago is identical to 1:41:16.960 --> 1:41:19.799 sitting down with tribal people in the middle of the 1:41:19.840 --> 1:41:23.519 African veld Um. It's just that what's being served at 1:41:23.520 --> 1:41:28.080 the table is different. And here's my point of difference. 1:41:28.240 --> 1:41:31.880 I'm not telling stories about chicken breasts or you know, 1:41:32.960 --> 1:41:37.559 fetucchini alfredo or you know, pork wantons. We're gonna be 1:41:37.640 --> 1:41:42.320 eating you know, grilled African word hog and scorpions and 1:41:42.400 --> 1:41:45.479 in but in the countries where they actually eat those things, 1:41:46.720 --> 1:41:52.200 question why why this fantastical, crazy food that sounds nuts 1:41:52.600 --> 1:41:55.160 And it's like, well, everyone loves to eat. So if 1:41:55.200 --> 1:41:57.120 we can accept that this is what's part of the 1:41:57.160 --> 1:42:01.280 regular diet in another part of the world. Uh, you know, 1:42:01.320 --> 1:42:04.240 one man's weird as another man's wonderful, then maybe we'll 1:42:04.280 --> 1:42:08.280 have some empathy and some level of understanding for a culture. 1:42:08.400 --> 1:42:13.080 I said, Americans inhale other cultures first and foremost through 1:42:13.120 --> 1:42:17.280 their mouths. Then we learned to love their music and 1:42:17.320 --> 1:42:19.240 their people and all the rest of that kind of stuff. 1:42:19.280 --> 1:42:25.160 But we love other cultures food first and foremost and uh. 1:42:25.479 --> 1:42:27.120 The next day, I got a call from the network 1:42:27.160 --> 1:42:30.920 and they said, if in its current format, we're gonna pass. 1:42:31.880 --> 1:42:33.680 And I said, well, what do you mean is his 1:42:33.760 --> 1:42:41.560 current format? And Pat Young said to me, it's entertainment educational. 1:42:41.720 --> 1:42:43.519 He says, but if you can figure out a way 1:42:44.040 --> 1:42:51.200 to come pitch it to me again where it's seventy entertainment, uh, education, 1:42:51.720 --> 1:42:53.960 I'll help you find a production company and I'll put 1:42:54.000 --> 1:42:56.240 this show on in a hundred and seventy five countries. 1:42:56.760 --> 1:42:58.400 He says, I think you're gonna be a big star. 1:42:59.160 --> 1:43:04.360 And I I went back to the drawing board and 1:43:04.400 --> 1:43:08.719 I kind of repositioned the whole thing and created six 1:43:08.760 --> 1:43:11.200 acts that were all different in this show. And he 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:14.200 ended up giving me a list of approved production companies, 1:43:14.240 --> 1:43:16.080 some of whom were in Minnesota. I went to because 1:43:16.120 --> 1:43:19.240 I had never delivered a show before, so I went 1:43:19.240 --> 1:43:22.200 to this production company. They were thrilled to get a 1:43:22.200 --> 1:43:27.240 show that was essentially sold um. And when we went 1:43:27.280 --> 1:43:30.160 to shoot the pilot. They were still airing Cooks Tour 1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:33.439 reruns of Cooks Tour, Tony's first show. By the time 1:43:33.479 --> 1:43:39.040 my show delivered, he'd had a season on Travel Channel. UM, 1:43:39.080 --> 1:43:43.720 they put Pat Wanted Immersive Talent, and you know, it 1:43:43.800 --> 1:43:48.200 was just uh, Samantha Brown, Tony then me. He put 1:43:48.240 --> 1:43:52.519 Tony and I on Monday nights back to back, UM, 1:43:52.600 --> 1:43:59.000 and the ratings just exploded, and it was you know, 1:43:59.200 --> 1:44:01.560 the following year, I got my own night Tuesday, and 1:44:01.600 --> 1:44:05.719 they built shows around me. UM. I got very lucky. 1:44:05.800 --> 1:44:08.240 The show's you know, everything is ratings, as you know. 1:44:08.600 --> 1:44:13.439 So the premier comes out, we do okay. Second week, 1:44:13.479 --> 1:44:15.080 we go up a couple of tents of a point. 1:44:15.600 --> 1:44:19.840 Third week, third week we come out and we come 1:44:19.840 --> 1:44:22.960 out of the gate and we're a couple of tents 1:44:23.080 --> 1:44:25.599 below and I'm ready for them to cancel the show, 1:44:25.880 --> 1:44:28.360 fully ready for them to cancel the show. But it 1:44:28.439 --> 1:44:32.000 was the episode when we were in uh Ecuador and 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:36.559 a shaman, the witch doctor, who is not supposed to 1:44:36.560 --> 1:44:38.879 be in the show. I had to beg the producer 1:44:38.960 --> 1:44:42.960 of the photographer to come into this witch doctor's residence 1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:46.720 with me to get an exorcism performed on my body 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:49.800 and he spat up on me and he I mean, 1:44:49.840 --> 1:44:52.800 anyone can google this. It's it pops up right away 1:44:52.840 --> 1:44:56.559 and resimmering witch doctor Ecuador, and he spits on me. 1:44:56.640 --> 1:44:58.720 He lights me on fire. I'm naked by the way 1:44:58.840 --> 1:45:03.160 in his us he kills two guinea pigs by beating 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:05.360 him on my chest. He throws all this stuff. He 1:45:06.000 --> 1:45:08.280 break out in hives because he beats me with this 1:45:08.560 --> 1:45:14.960 giant bunch of herbs and he Uh, I walk out 1:45:14.960 --> 1:45:18.320 of there and uh, I'd like to say something funny 1:45:18.360 --> 1:45:20.559 the camera. Well, I feel better, And it was a 1:45:20.680 --> 1:45:23.160 very very very very funny sort of moment in the 1:45:23.200 --> 1:45:27.880 history of the show. Um. Now, when it aired, the 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:29.920 ratings the next day were not as good, and I'm 1:45:29.920 --> 1:45:32.439 ready for the thing to be canceled. But you can't 1:45:32.479 --> 1:45:34.559 remember I'm on Monday nights, right, So the next day 1:45:34.640 --> 1:45:37.160 was Tuesday, we get the ratings. Wednesday morning, I get 1:45:37.160 --> 1:45:40.240 a call from the booker at the tonight show. Uh, 1:45:40.439 --> 1:45:43.519 we've we saw this scene and we showed it to 1:45:43.640 --> 1:45:46.200 Jay and Jay would like you to be on the 1:45:46.240 --> 1:45:51.600 show Friday night. And I literally I said, you know, 1:45:52.080 --> 1:45:54.599 you know, Michael stopped I thought it was my friend 1:45:54.640 --> 1:45:59.880 pulling my leg and I flew out Thursday night. Friday night, 1:46:00.040 --> 1:46:03.800 I was on the Tonight Show. UH and Jay we 1:46:03.800 --> 1:46:06.439 we had a great time and Jay said, You've got 1:46:06.439 --> 1:46:10.160 to come back. We love having you. Uh. And the 1:46:10.200 --> 1:46:15.960 next week the ratings quadrupled. Quinn tuppled because those were 1:46:15.960 --> 1:46:18.479 the days when your very first question that you asked me, 1:46:18.840 --> 1:46:20.559 what do you what? Where do you need to be 1:46:20.760 --> 1:46:24.240 to spread your message? In those days, the Tonight Show 1:46:24.640 --> 1:46:27.360 was the most watched thing other than the Super Bowl 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:31.400 and Saturday Night Live, Right, And um, I wound up 1:46:31.439 --> 1:46:33.200 doing the Tonight Show four or five times over the 1:46:33.280 --> 1:46:36.960 next two or three years. And UM, I think without 1:46:37.080 --> 1:46:40.200 that invitation from j the show, who knows who would 1:46:40.200 --> 1:46:42.080 have happened. It could have found an audience or not. 1:46:42.160 --> 1:46:45.400 But all I know is thanks to that that witch 1:46:45.439 --> 1:46:49.360 doctor in Ecuador, I had a great year after that exorcism. 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:53.360 I mean it was good. Uh. And the moral of 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:56.479 the story is, anytime you can have an exorcism in 1:46:56.560 --> 1:47:00.559 Oda Vallo, Ecuador, in the Central Highlands, do it the 1:47:00.600 --> 1:47:05.720 brew harrows. They're the mail which is have incredible power. Um. 1:47:05.760 --> 1:47:08.080 And it was successful. But I also to your point, 1:47:08.680 --> 1:47:13.800 had a desire to start multiple businesses and do multiple 1:47:13.920 --> 1:47:17.240 things with the gifts that I had been given. UM. 1:47:17.840 --> 1:47:21.320 I have a marketing company of a production company that's 1:47:21.360 --> 1:47:23.479 now eight years old that makes TV for me and 1:47:23.520 --> 1:47:27.519 lots of other people, that's successful hospitality company, and I've 1:47:27.800 --> 1:47:31.080 you know, I've written books, and I've written for magazines, 1:47:31.120 --> 1:47:33.680 and I've done all the things that you're supposed to 1:47:33.720 --> 1:47:36.800 do in in my career, mostly because it's stuff that 1:47:36.840 --> 1:47:38.599 I want to do that has fun, but it also 1:47:38.640 --> 1:47:41.599 has to have a service element to it. We we 1:47:41.680 --> 1:47:45.120 believe very seriously at our companies that everything has to 1:47:45.160 --> 1:47:48.400 leave the world a better place, otherwise we're not going 1:47:48.439 --> 1:47:51.120 to do it. That that feeling has become stronger over 1:47:51.160 --> 1:47:52.880 the last ten years than it was the first ten 1:47:53.000 --> 1:47:57.479 years when we started um Our Companies. Uh, my first 1:47:57.520 --> 1:48:01.080 company is still alive part of this triad of groups 1:48:01.120 --> 1:48:04.559 and we're nineteen years old. UM it's a very very 1:48:04.600 --> 1:48:08.680 powerful statement. I think about what can happen when you 1:48:08.800 --> 1:48:13.719 treat human beings with dignity and respect. UM. I I 1:48:13.800 --> 1:48:18.120 was an unredeemable user of people and taker of things 1:48:18.160 --> 1:48:23.840 when I arrived in Minnesota January and the community here, 1:48:23.960 --> 1:48:28.320 loved me up and gave me, uh a little bit 1:48:28.320 --> 1:48:30.880 of respect and a little bit of dignity even when 1:48:30.920 --> 1:48:34.160 I didn't deserve it, and they watered me like a plant. 1:48:34.200 --> 1:48:38.000 And I think this is why human beings need to 1:48:38.000 --> 1:48:40.880 be treated better in this country, because there's a million 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:44.840 versions of me out there that they're they're sleeping on corners, 1:48:44.880 --> 1:48:48.680 they're in homeless shelters, they're in public hospitals, they're in 1:48:48.760 --> 1:48:51.559 jails and institutions, and we need to take better care 1:48:51.600 --> 1:48:54.439 of them because our society would be better off if 1:48:54.479 --> 1:48:57.080 we actually love them up and gave them the dignity 1:48:57.120 --> 1:49:01.120 and respect they needed to get well. Uh Um. It's 1:49:01.120 --> 1:49:03.519 why I'm proud is when people say what's the what's 1:49:03.560 --> 1:49:05.400 the most important thing you do? It's like I'm I'm 1:49:05.560 --> 1:49:07.599 on the board of a group of New York called 1:49:07.680 --> 1:49:10.760 Services for the Underserved, where we're able to take care 1:49:10.760 --> 1:49:13.599 of thirty five thousand New Yorkers that no other agency 1:49:13.640 --> 1:49:16.519 will take care of. Those are the things that that 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:19.479 I'm proud of. St of I. I love having an 1:49:19.479 --> 1:49:22.320 Emmy on the mantel in the house. I love having, 1:49:22.880 --> 1:49:25.760 you know, all the James Beard Awards and all the 1:49:25.760 --> 1:49:28.320 other stuff that I have, and you know, I turn 1:49:28.360 --> 1:49:30.920 on the TV and there I am and a bunch 1:49:30.960 --> 1:49:35.000 of different streamers or Magnolia or whatever. That's great, but 1:49:35.120 --> 1:49:37.800 it pales in comparison to all the other stuff that 1:49:37.840 --> 1:49:40.960 I do, because that's the stuff that makes me feel 1:49:41.520 --> 1:49:45.400 like I'm actually of this world and not taking from 1:49:45.400 --> 1:49:54.840 this world. Okay, I only have a few minutes left, 1:49:54.880 --> 1:49:58.599 so let's do lightning round quick answers. What's your goal now? 1:49:59.080 --> 1:50:02.320 Change more public policy and laws in America to make 1:50:02.360 --> 1:50:09.480 it easier for people uh to get fed, take themselves 1:50:09.560 --> 1:50:16.000 out of the hunger category that they're in, and help 1:50:16.120 --> 1:50:19.760 to remake our food system in America. It's a small goal. 1:50:20.160 --> 1:50:24.960 You're divorced. And to what degree did your lifestyle terms 1:50:25.000 --> 1:50:27.400 to travel around the world contribute to that? And can 1:50:27.479 --> 1:50:30.640 people in this world, in the food world, certainly in 1:50:30.680 --> 1:50:34.600 the food travel world, can they maintain a healthy relationship? No, 1:50:36.720 --> 1:50:38.760 I think you need to. I think you need to 1:50:38.840 --> 1:50:43.439 change things in your life. If you want your relationships 1:50:44.240 --> 1:50:47.320 to prosper, you need to invest in them and you 1:50:47.360 --> 1:50:51.920 need to do the work. Um, you can't be I 1:50:51.960 --> 1:50:56.280 mean nowadays we can play words with friends, so you 1:50:56.320 --> 1:50:59.160 know you can you play scrabble from anywhere in the world. Sure, 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:02.559 sure you can, there's an app for that. Uh, all 1:51:02.640 --> 1:51:05.519 the face times in the world can't help you with 1:51:05.600 --> 1:51:08.000 your primary relationships. You have to put the work in. 1:51:08.960 --> 1:51:11.360 Where have you not been that you want to go 1:51:11.479 --> 1:51:16.680 to Czechoslovakia? And why? Why? Is so ready an answer? 1:51:16.720 --> 1:51:18.200 And why have you not been? And why do you 1:51:18.200 --> 1:51:21.439 want to go? I've been to a hundred and seventy 1:51:21.439 --> 1:51:24.000 seven countries, and I'm not talking about passing through. I 1:51:24.000 --> 1:51:28.240 mean actually been, uh, spend time there. I've been to 1:51:28.360 --> 1:51:31.360 China eighteen times. I've never been there for less than 1:51:31.400 --> 1:51:34.400 two weeks. I've never seen the Great Wall. And the 1:51:34.439 --> 1:51:36.640 reason is that I go in and I and I 1:51:36.720 --> 1:51:39.680 haven't experienced there that no one else gets to have. 1:51:40.240 --> 1:51:44.839 You know, I go to Botswana. I saw one square 1:51:44.920 --> 1:51:48.000 mile of that country because I lived with the Juntoasi, 1:51:48.439 --> 1:51:51.040 a protected tribe, the tribe from the movie The Gods 1:51:51.120 --> 1:51:53.880 must be Crazy. No one has been allowed to live 1:51:53.920 --> 1:51:58.960 with them for a week in forty years except me. Um, 1:52:00.280 --> 1:52:07.479 you know, you know there's I nothing can come to 1:52:07.479 --> 1:52:09.519 measure that. But I'd love to go back to Box 1:52:09.520 --> 1:52:11.639 want and see the rest of this amazing country. I'd 1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:13.559 love to go to China's a tourist and actually see 1:52:13.600 --> 1:52:15.439 some of the sights and sounds and smells that I 1:52:15.520 --> 1:52:18.200 never saw. Um. I'd like to go back to some 1:52:18.240 --> 1:52:20.080 of the countries I've only been to once that were 1:52:20.080 --> 1:52:22.960 really awesome. I actually I've been to Croatia twice. I 1:52:22.960 --> 1:52:24.960 wish I could go to Croatia every year. It's an 1:52:25.000 --> 1:52:29.760 incredible country with amazing people. Um, killer food, beautiful, But 1:52:31.600 --> 1:52:34.760 never been there, just just scheduling and a couple of 1:52:34.800 --> 1:52:36.960 times that it was on the docket to go shoot there, 1:52:37.280 --> 1:52:39.920 some other talent was going there and they decided we 1:52:39.960 --> 1:52:42.040 want zimmer and somewhere else. And you know, you don't 1:52:42.040 --> 1:52:45.919 get everything you want, even if you're successful in this industry, 1:52:46.000 --> 1:52:48.120 so a lot of times I had to take a 1:52:48.120 --> 1:52:51.680 back seat to somebody else. Um. And just this is 1:52:51.720 --> 1:52:54.120 crazy that I've been to a hundred seventy seven countries 1:52:54.200 --> 1:52:56.280 and and someone like me has never been to Prague 1:52:56.479 --> 1:52:59.600 or any of Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic. I mean, it's just 1:53:00.800 --> 1:53:03.560 so a lot of people want to travel where ultimately 1:53:03.600 --> 1:53:06.599 it's somewhat familiar. They go to the UK, they speak English. 1:53:06.640 --> 1:53:09.680 My experiences I've had the best times in places like 1:53:09.760 --> 1:53:13.800 bo Guitar and Mumbai. Well, mum by the speaking to 1:53:14.400 --> 1:53:18.200 But you know, for me, just like with food, the 1:53:18.360 --> 1:53:20.600 crazier if they don't speak English. The more out of 1:53:20.640 --> 1:53:24.560 place I am, the better I enjoy it. How about you, 1:53:24.560 --> 1:53:26.320 you want to go to an exotic place where your 1:53:26.400 --> 1:53:28.439 number or you want to go with her some comfort. 1:53:29.280 --> 1:53:32.280 I will double down on that actually and turn it 1:53:32.320 --> 1:53:34.400 a little bit around. But I bet you can relate 1:53:34.439 --> 1:53:37.040 to it. My guess is knowing you, having read so 1:53:37.120 --> 1:53:39.360 much of what you've written and listening to your podcast, 1:53:40.240 --> 1:53:42.600 I get the feeling you'll really relate to this. I 1:53:42.640 --> 1:53:46.040 am the best version of myself when I'm traveling in 1:53:46.080 --> 1:53:49.519 a place, and I'm the best version of the best 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:52.920 version of myself when I'm challenged the most. When I'm 1:53:52.920 --> 1:53:56.679 out of my comfort zone, I take more risks. I'm 1:53:56.840 --> 1:54:00.120 I'm less risk averse, I asked more questions. I'm not 1:54:00.200 --> 1:54:03.920 a smarty pants. I don't pretend. I like myself best 1:54:04.360 --> 1:54:08.040 when I have a bag over my shoulder and I'm 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:12.280 walking across Ethiopia. That's the best version of me there is. 1:54:12.920 --> 1:54:16.600 I am curious, I am friendly, I am alert, I 1:54:16.640 --> 1:54:21.439 am open to everything. I'm teachable, I am spontaneous, I 1:54:21.479 --> 1:54:23.880 am all the things I want to be in my life. 1:54:24.040 --> 1:54:27.479 I am that person because of the challenges of travel 1:54:27.840 --> 1:54:34.080 is transformative. Travel is transformative. So consequently, what's amazing about 1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:36.120 it is that you can then export some of that 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:41.120 back into your life in America. Right, So, like you 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:45.000 in those places you mentioned, you were forced to do 1:54:45.080 --> 1:54:47.600 some new things, and you come back and changed human beings, 1:54:47.600 --> 1:54:50.760 sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big impactful ways, but 1:54:50.880 --> 1:54:57.480 you're changed. Travel is transformative. Okay, what are your favorite 1:54:57.560 --> 1:55:04.040 one or two cuisines? You know there's a song by 1:55:04.560 --> 1:55:07.160 Sunday Afternoon by the Kings and Ray Davis. You know, 1:55:07.360 --> 1:55:09.680 give me two good reasons why I ought to stay. 1:55:09.760 --> 1:55:12.080 So I usually say too, but you know I'm not 1:55:12.120 --> 1:55:14.480 holding you to the ones that you know, Hey, you 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:16.440 gotta eat this cuisine for the rest of your life. 1:55:17.040 --> 1:55:21.400 I'll answer it this way. The two most sophisticated cuisines 1:55:21.480 --> 1:55:26.880 for depth and breadth, for variety of ingredients, for variety 1:55:26.920 --> 1:55:33.240 of techniques, for uh, just just for just the deepest 1:55:33.280 --> 1:55:35.280 and the widest. And I think they are the two 1:55:35.360 --> 1:55:41.240 cuisines that sit atop the culinary in culinary Valhalla, are 1:55:41.840 --> 1:55:47.000 Chinese cuisine and Mexican cuisine. Now from that comes a 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:50.440 lot of stuff. So if you go down to southeastern China, 1:55:50.520 --> 1:55:53.960 you're gonna eat fusion cuisine that has a lot of 1:55:54.040 --> 1:55:57.560 tie and vietnames. E vibe to it right, with fresh 1:55:57.640 --> 1:56:00.680 chilies and garlic and their version of fish sauce and 1:56:00.760 --> 1:56:03.920 things like that. Now, look, do I love the beauty 1:56:03.920 --> 1:56:07.480 and simplicity of Japanese cuisine? And Japanese cuisine is always 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:11.120 the easy answer, or Italian cuisine. Every time I'm in France, 1:56:11.240 --> 1:56:13.360 I turned to whoever I'm traveling with, I'm going you 1:56:13.400 --> 1:56:16.040 know something, as cliches as it is, French food is 1:56:16.040 --> 1:56:18.960 fucking amazing. And it is. But at the end of 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:21.400 the day, when I'm really being intellectual about it and 1:56:21.400 --> 1:56:24.520 I'm measuring all the strengths and weaknesses, I would rather 1:56:24.680 --> 1:56:29.400 take from high to low, bottom to top, side to side. 1:56:30.160 --> 1:56:33.520 Chinese and Mexican. I think they are the two cuisines 1:56:33.640 --> 1:56:38.080 that are the most complex in every measurable way. Uh 1:56:38.280 --> 1:56:41.200 we can. And I've eaten enough around the world to 1:56:41.280 --> 1:56:45.800 have some some perspective on that question. Eat out or 1:56:45.840 --> 1:56:51.240 stay home? Stay home? Just because you travel so much, No, 1:56:51.440 --> 1:56:55.040 I like to stay home and eat. Uh. Here's here's 1:56:55.040 --> 1:56:58.720 the difference I think from professional chefs. Um and certainly 1:56:58.800 --> 1:57:02.600 you know, I'm sixty. I've cooking for for money since 1:57:02.640 --> 1:57:05.840 I was fourteen, almost with you know, except for a 1:57:05.840 --> 1:57:09.440 couple of times. Here they're almost an unbroken line. Um, 1:57:09.520 --> 1:57:12.320 And I've had the experience of you know, I mean 1:57:12.440 --> 1:57:16.080 the food experiences that I've had eating out and traveling, 1:57:16.120 --> 1:57:18.720 I would put up against anyone's. I'm not sure the 1:57:18.720 --> 1:57:21.960 way that TV is no longer made in in oh 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:24.720 will buy thirty or forty more episodes they buy eight. 1:57:25.000 --> 1:57:27.400 In the age of the streamer, they're buying eights and twelves. 1:57:27.720 --> 1:57:30.400 I don't think anyone will ever travel the world and 1:57:30.520 --> 1:57:33.560 eat the way Tony and I have had the opportunity 1:57:33.600 --> 1:57:35.800 to when we were doing what we were doing at 1:57:35.920 --> 1:57:38.360 Travel Channel. When we were doing that, I just don't 1:57:38.400 --> 1:57:44.520 I don't think it will ever happen again. Um and I. 1:57:44.520 --> 1:57:47.840 I love restaurants. I love the feeling of being in restaurants. 1:57:47.920 --> 1:57:52.560 I love seeing what other chefs are doing. But at 1:57:52.600 --> 1:57:55.400 the end of the day, and maybe it's more about 1:57:55.600 --> 1:57:59.760 the age that I am, Um, I have the ability 1:57:59.760 --> 1:58:01.920 to look so many different things. There's so many things 1:58:01.960 --> 1:58:04.920 I want to cook. I'm now it's switched around. Instead 1:58:04.960 --> 1:58:08.720 of like I have to fly to Hong Kong to 1:58:08.920 --> 1:58:13.280 eat at restaurant X. Instead of that, I'm like, I 1:58:13.360 --> 1:58:16.040 have to be able to get these ingredients so I 1:58:16.080 --> 1:58:20.360 can recreate this dish or series of dishes from this book, 1:58:20.400 --> 1:58:23.160 from this restaurant in Scandinavia that I've been dying to 1:58:23.320 --> 1:58:26.920 And I where am I gonna find baby seagulls legally 1:58:26.960 --> 1:58:29.280 in America? This is gonna be a toughie, but I 1:58:29.320 --> 1:58:31.920 gotta find him. Has got to recreate this dish. That 1:58:32.160 --> 1:58:38.160 is the stuff that excites me. Uh now, okay, hey 1:58:38.600 --> 1:58:42.240 was norma as good as the rep B. What are 1:58:42.240 --> 1:58:46.800 the two best restaurants you've ever been to? For you? Uh? 1:58:47.080 --> 1:58:52.120 Noma was because and is because not only is Renny 1:58:52.200 --> 1:58:57.360 Riseeppe is as phenomenal an executor of food. If you 1:58:57.400 --> 1:58:59.800 asked him to make you real scalapini, he would do 1:58:59.840 --> 1:59:02.840 with lawlessly. He has that skill set. It's like you've 1:59:02.880 --> 1:59:06.120 studied art. It's like the impressionists. You know, mon A 1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:08.120 man A, Sir, all those folks. They all went to 1:59:08.160 --> 1:59:11.760 the Accold, to Bozar and then they rejected it. They 1:59:11.800 --> 1:59:14.560 could literally paint a hand as if you were looking 1:59:14.600 --> 1:59:17.480 at a photograph, even though photographs haven't been invented. When 1:59:17.480 --> 1:59:22.160 they were paying the they once you can create a 1:59:22.240 --> 1:59:24.760 hand that looks like it does in real life, then 1:59:24.800 --> 1:59:27.840 you can create your impression of one. So these people 1:59:27.880 --> 1:59:31.400 who are doing molecular gastronomy or very progressive cuisine or 1:59:31.760 --> 1:59:35.640 cuisines that we see as being way out there, um, 1:59:36.000 --> 1:59:39.800 have the culinary skill set to do anything. They are 1:59:40.040 --> 1:59:44.440 masters of technique and craftspeople and so yes, Noma was. 1:59:44.520 --> 1:59:46.720 But it was also progressive in the sense that they 1:59:46.720 --> 1:59:49.880 were using ingredients from a part of the world that 1:59:50.360 --> 1:59:55.360 wasn't the southeastern United States or Mexico or Vietnamena where 1:59:55.360 --> 1:59:57.840 you can get so many things and everything grows and 1:59:57.840 --> 2:00:00.960 it's incredibly fertile. They were were working with a limited 2:00:01.000 --> 2:00:05.120 number of ingredients, doing a limited number of things. Um. 2:00:05.160 --> 2:00:08.120 So the answer is yes, it was two best meals 2:00:08.200 --> 2:00:15.520 of my life. Uh Well, prow house seafood house um 2:00:15.600 --> 2:00:20.640 off an island uh In at the bottom of the 2:00:20.720 --> 2:00:25.920 Filipino island chain just north of Borachai. Uh. You park 2:00:26.000 --> 2:00:29.360 your car in a field and you walk down a 2:00:29.400 --> 2:00:33.480 series of planks laid on logs in the mud. Thank God, 2:00:33.560 --> 2:00:36.280 the tide goes out at night when they're open, because 2:00:36.280 --> 2:00:38.320 the only way to walk to the restaurant, which is 2:00:38.360 --> 2:00:44.200 a hut in the middle of a tidal estuary, and 2:00:44.240 --> 2:00:47.440 the fishermen come by and push food and fish and 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:49.360 vegetables up through a hole in the middle of the 2:00:49.400 --> 2:00:53.120 restaurants the whole middle of restaurant, like huge bunches of bananas. 2:00:53.160 --> 2:00:55.360 They were making a banana drink that night with ice 2:00:55.920 --> 2:00:58.600 that I had like sixteen of. But all the fish 2:00:58.600 --> 2:01:00.680 in the shrimp they you know, it's whatever the chef 2:01:00.720 --> 2:01:03.440 is making, and he makes batches this stuff and spreads 2:01:03.480 --> 2:01:06.520 it around every table. We probably had thirty seafood courses 2:01:06.560 --> 2:01:08.920 that night. Once you're there, you're there. You can stay 2:01:09.000 --> 2:01:11.600 for five hours, six hours if you like, or you 2:01:11.600 --> 2:01:13.400 can just walk back to your car at any point 2:01:13.440 --> 2:01:16.680 in time and pay your bill. Um. I wrote about 2:01:16.680 --> 2:01:19.400 it in my first book, UH one of the most 2:01:19.400 --> 2:01:23.720 transcendent food experiences of my life. UM. And then the 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:31.120 second best one was at a um Uh, a little 2:01:31.160 --> 2:01:35.440 az tech village about two hours north of Mexico, two 2:01:35.440 --> 2:01:41.040 hours sorry south of Mexico City, um a town where 2:01:42.600 --> 2:01:46.360 there's a large number of people of ast Aztec descent 2:01:47.000 --> 2:01:52.080 still cooking pre contact, pre colonial food and still speaking 2:01:52.200 --> 2:01:54.720 what is essentially a dead language. But it's not dead 2:01:54.760 --> 2:01:57.600 because there's enough of them speaking it. But it's the 2:01:57.720 --> 2:01:59.840 last place to get a taste of history where these 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:02.440 people that the oral tradition has passed these foods down. 2:02:02.440 --> 2:02:04.480 And there's a small, little six seat restaurant in the 2:02:04.520 --> 2:02:09.160 market there that a husband and wife run. Uh. That, 2:02:09.280 --> 2:02:12.760 to my mind, is still the one of the top 2:02:12.840 --> 2:02:15.040 meals that I've ever had in my life. I find 2:02:15.040 --> 2:02:17.280 it interesting when I think of that question, just without 2:02:17.360 --> 2:02:20.600 thinking about it. It's two restaurants that are as far 2:02:20.680 --> 2:02:24.000 off the grid and as far away from anything resembling 2:02:24.200 --> 2:02:28.680 tablecloths and silverware as anything I could think of. I think, 2:02:28.720 --> 2:02:33.200 the more stuff you have. Uh, sometimes we forget that 2:02:33.280 --> 2:02:37.360 food comes from the heart, not from the head. And 2:02:38.360 --> 2:02:42.040 those two food experiences were ones that I consider them 2:02:42.040 --> 2:02:45.280 a restaurant because number one, there was a financial transaction, 2:02:45.320 --> 2:02:48.320 but more importantly, there was an emotional transaction. I don't 2:02:48.320 --> 2:02:52.200 believe the history of restaurants by definition, is one that 2:02:52.240 --> 2:02:54.680 starts with a financial transaction. I believe it starts with 2:02:54.760 --> 2:03:00.520 a a an emotional transaction. Um, I think restaurants are 2:03:00.600 --> 2:03:04.080 thousands of years old, not hundreds as other historians think. 2:03:04.160 --> 2:03:08.440 And my favorite thing to argue them, um, and both 2:03:08.440 --> 2:03:16.280 of those restaurants gave me an emotional transaction experience that 2:03:16.480 --> 2:03:19.280 I think we're superior to anything else I've ever had, 2:03:19.840 --> 2:03:22.240 be it a temple of gastronomy or some great street 2:03:22.240 --> 2:03:25.440 food place or whatever they were. They price stand above 2:03:25.480 --> 2:03:27.560 and beyond all the others. Is the two best meals 2:03:27.560 --> 2:03:30.680 of my life. Okay, going back to the beginning, let's 2:03:30.720 --> 2:03:35.640 say money was no object. You know, the billionaires coffers 2:03:35.680 --> 2:03:39.520 were open. Do you believe this is fantasy land that 2:03:40.120 --> 2:03:44.680 as a result of foodie culture, et cetera, could we 2:03:44.920 --> 2:03:49.360 bring blue and Red together from the bottom via food 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:52.360 is Would that even be possible because we're not bringing 2:03:52.400 --> 2:03:57.640 them together at the top. Yes, I believe. I mean 2:03:57.720 --> 2:04:01.960 and and Jose and I talked about this all the time. Uh, 2:04:02.160 --> 2:04:05.920 we need bigger tables. It's it's really that simple. We 2:04:05.960 --> 2:04:08.640 need bigger tables. I wanted to do a show called 2:04:08.640 --> 2:04:12.280 Dinner with the Dictator. Hopefully, if there's some network person 2:04:12.360 --> 2:04:17.080 listening for me, we'll we'll talk about it. Um, because 2:04:17.120 --> 2:04:19.080 of some of the places I've traveled and being the 2:04:19.120 --> 2:04:22.520 only person who's ever made TV in some of these places, 2:04:23.160 --> 2:04:26.880 or the first person to make TV there. Um, the 2:04:26.920 --> 2:04:30.280 head of the country wants to have dinner with you, 2:04:30.400 --> 2:04:34.000 and I don't believe in saying no, because I'm curious, 2:04:34.040 --> 2:04:39.920 even if that person is a international narco trafficker, terrorist, 2:04:40.000 --> 2:04:43.320 bad guy person, I want to go. I'm I'm an 2:04:43.320 --> 2:04:46.600 experienced collector and a storyteller, and so I want to 2:04:46.600 --> 2:04:50.480 go and see what that's like. And UM, I've never 2:04:50.560 --> 2:04:56.360 left a table having a meal with someone disliking them more. 2:04:57.280 --> 2:05:01.000 I've always understood more about them, and I believe if 2:05:01.040 --> 2:05:05.400 we actually sat down and broke bread in the literal 2:05:05.480 --> 2:05:09.160 sense with other human beings. I did a food dinner 2:05:09.160 --> 2:05:13.480 once for four hundred people in Aspen, Colorado. Uh. It 2:05:13.600 --> 2:05:16.520 was a buffet thing. We did whole roasted lambs, uh 2:05:16.880 --> 2:05:20.640 in two different ways, lots of sauces and sides. But 2:05:20.720 --> 2:05:25.240 I had assage, which is a North African Middle Eastern 2:05:25.480 --> 2:05:28.880 dome that's used to cook very thin flatbreads on and 2:05:28.920 --> 2:05:31.720 we're making bread to order. It only takes like thirty 2:05:31.720 --> 2:05:33.840 seconds and it's enough for like three or four people, 2:05:33.880 --> 2:05:35.480 so it kind of worked. As they came through the 2:05:35.520 --> 2:05:38.880 line and we're throwing these giant loaves of flat bread 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:42.320 down into this basket and people would stare it, and 2:05:42.360 --> 2:05:44.920 I said, just you and these other two people in 2:05:45.000 --> 2:05:46.600 line with you, just grab it and tear it and 2:05:46.640 --> 2:05:48.840 break it. That's for you. Three. This pieces big, it's 2:05:48.880 --> 2:05:51.120 for you for this piece is smaller. It's for YouTube. 2:05:51.240 --> 2:05:54.480 And we'd actually have them physically break bread and watching 2:05:54.520 --> 2:05:56.440 them do that, this is seven or eight years ago, 2:05:57.280 --> 2:06:00.480 watching them smile and watching what happened when you physically 2:06:00.520 --> 2:06:02.320 broke a piece of bread with someone as you had 2:06:02.480 --> 2:06:06.520 by the way, people you did not know just reaffirmed 2:06:06.560 --> 2:06:08.960 for me. In addition to the hundreds of times I've 2:06:08.960 --> 2:06:11.240 sat down to eat with people I was sure I hated. 2:06:12.640 --> 2:06:16.560 I may leave. They're still knowing they're a bad human 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:19.640 being doing bad things, and I don't believe in what 2:06:19.680 --> 2:06:21.960 they're doing, and I would still call the cops on 2:06:22.000 --> 2:06:26.280 them if I could, or whatever. But I understand more 2:06:26.320 --> 2:06:29.200 of them because I actually listened to them when we're 2:06:29.280 --> 2:06:31.800 at a meal. I believe the shouting ends and we 2:06:31.840 --> 2:06:35.280 can listen to them. What's heat in America? My MSNBC show, 2:06:35.320 --> 2:06:38.120 I had I had a meal with people who were 2:06:38.200 --> 2:06:40.080 on the other side of the issues. And in the 2:06:40.120 --> 2:06:45.440 case of the Secretary of State of Alabama, UM John 2:06:45.480 --> 2:06:49.680 Merrill at the time, someone who I thought was, you know, 2:06:49.720 --> 2:06:56.480 the architect of the Southern voters suppression UM and still 2:06:56.520 --> 2:07:00.000 a very very polarizing figure, and I believe a very 2:07:00.080 --> 2:07:06.560 very evil person, UH with with bad intent and UH 2:07:06.600 --> 2:07:10.440 and I and and the voting suppression issue in America 2:07:10.520 --> 2:07:12.760 is is one that I mean, I devoted a whole 2:07:12.760 --> 2:07:14.920 hour to it in What's Eating America? So I mean, 2:07:15.120 --> 2:07:16.880 you know where I stand on this. But in that 2:07:17.280 --> 2:07:20.440 What's Eating America episode, I actually dined with several people 2:07:20.680 --> 2:07:22.920 who were on the opposite side of the issue for me, 2:07:23.680 --> 2:07:29.520 and it changed none of my viewpoint about the issue, 2:07:30.480 --> 2:07:34.840 but I I got some insight into where they're coming from. 2:07:34.880 --> 2:07:40.520 Sufficient Two, if I was another politician or someone who 2:07:40.600 --> 2:07:42.760 was in that place to be able to work with 2:07:42.840 --> 2:07:46.400 them on something, could begin to do some things to 2:07:46.520 --> 2:07:52.240 at least put all put some hold, put some awareness, 2:07:52.240 --> 2:07:55.480 put some boundaries, make some improvements. The way we're going 2:07:56.200 --> 2:07:58.760 scares the ship out of me. I mean, this thing 2:07:58.800 --> 2:08:01.440 with vaccine, you know, we talk about restaurants. You know, 2:08:01.480 --> 2:08:05.880 these cities all around the country and restaurateurs. Danny most 2:08:05.880 --> 2:08:09.920 famously on CNBC the other day said, we want vaccine 2:08:09.960 --> 2:08:12.960 people have to show a vaccine card to make a 2:08:13.000 --> 2:08:16.680 reservation in the restaurant, right, So these vaccine mandates where 2:08:16.920 --> 2:08:19.400 you have to show your vacs to get into something. 2:08:19.920 --> 2:08:23.000 I do believe the federal government needs to come out 2:08:23.040 --> 2:08:25.880 and say that and take this awful burden off of 2:08:25.960 --> 2:08:29.760 restaurants and businesses and municipalities and states. We we we've 2:08:29.800 --> 2:08:32.480 got to start to do stuff like that. I don't 2:08:32.520 --> 2:08:36.560 think there's an option for it. But that's also going 2:08:36.600 --> 2:08:40.720 to create some real tension and some real escalation of 2:08:40.760 --> 2:08:43.640 trouble in this country, and I don't know if we're 2:08:43.640 --> 2:08:45.760 gonna be able to recover from it. It's a we're 2:08:45.800 --> 2:08:49.520 in a very, very dangerous time in America. Andrew, we 2:08:49.560 --> 2:08:51.680 could go on for another two hours. There's so many 2:08:51.680 --> 2:08:53.840 other things I wanted to ask you about. We'll have 2:08:53.920 --> 2:08:57.800 to wait for another time. You're fantastic your natural rock 2:08:57.880 --> 2:09:01.040 and tour. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you 2:09:01.080 --> 2:09:03.680 as a real, real honor and a privilege. I wanted 2:09:03.720 --> 2:09:05.240 to do this for a long time. I've been a 2:09:05.240 --> 2:09:08.960 big fan of what you do UH for several years now, 2:09:09.120 --> 2:09:11.960 and and this conversation I feel the exact same way. 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:14.600 Next time I'm in Los Angeles and we if we 2:09:14.680 --> 2:09:16.879 can go out to eat, let's go share our meal somewhere. 2:09:17.400 --> 2:09:20.840 I would love that. Until next time. This is Bob 2:09:20.960 --> 2:09:21.440 left sitt