Speaker 1: Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
Speaker 1: with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: People thought Jonathan Wilde was a good, upstanding kind of guy.
Speaker 2: He was a thief taker who was very good at
Speaker 2: catching criminals. The Privy Council advisers to the Crown consulted
Speaker 2: with him on methods of controlling crime in London. Highway robbers,
Speaker 2: who were having their own golden age of crime at
Speaker 2: the time, were a scourge on the city and Jonathan
Speaker 2: had them in his sights. But what most people did
Speaker 2: not know was that Jonathan himself was actually a very
Speaker 2: bad guy. Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria Tremarki.
Speaker 1: And I'm a Holly Frye. So we thought we'd do
Speaker 1: a one to eighty for this episode and talk not
Speaker 1: about highway robbers, but the people who highway robbers feared
Speaker 1: the thief takers. In England between roughly sixteen seventy five
Speaker 1: and eighteen thirty, if you witnessed a crime t you
Speaker 1: were legally obliged to apprehend the perpetrator if it was possible.
Speaker 1: At a minimum, you were expected to report the crime
Speaker 1: to a magistrate or other official, but citizens were uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and or unwilling to police their own city. As crimes
Speaker 1: became more and more violent in nature and more frequent.
Speaker 1: Before the establishment of a professional police force in London,
Speaker 1: which didn't happen until the nineteenth century, thief takers began
Speaker 1: to fill the need. They were private citizens who captured
Speaker 1: criminals and recovered stolen goods for a reward. That's it.
Speaker 1: Those are the basics of the gig. They didn't have
Speaker 1: the same level of training or oversight as what we
Speaker 1: would expect from law enforcement officials or even private investigators
Speaker 1: or bounty hunters of today. Often thief takers were former
Speaker 1: or sometimes active criminals themselves, and many frequently used illegal, unethical,
Speaker 1: or unscrupulous methods to get their bounty. Thief takers and
Speaker 1: thieves they were often one and the same.
Speaker 2: Thief takers are considered the result of legislation passed in
Speaker 2: sixteen ninety two called an Act for Encouraging the Apprehending
Speaker 2: of Highwaymen. That act established a monetary reward for the
Speaker 2: capture and conviction of highway robbers, and it also gave
Speaker 2: a free pardon to criminals who gave up their accomplices.
Speaker 2: Records show thief takers received from the sheriff forty pounds
Speaker 2: for each criminal they apprehended that led to a conviction,
Speaker 2: Plus there was a bonus of one hundred pounds quote
Speaker 2: if the crime was committed within five miles of Charing Cross.
Speaker 2: A single capture in London would earn the thief taker
Speaker 2: the equivalent of five years earnings in average employment. In addition, quote,
Speaker 2: any crime committed by the thief taker during his apprehension
Speaker 2: was also pardoned. So thief taking was a really attractive deal.
Speaker 1: But as you may imagine, not all of those people
Speaker 1: who chose the occupation were honest and well meaning people.
Speaker 1: For instance, thief takers often used their sway to blackmail
Speaker 1: criminals with that threat of turning them in for arrest,
Speaker 1: or on the flip side of that, they could offer
Speaker 1: thieves protection from being arrested. That, though came at a price.
Speaker 1: Thief takers also often paid known criminals to testify with
Speaker 1: true or false evidence against other criminals and sometimes even
Speaker 1: against innocent people, to ensure there was a conviction so
Speaker 1: that they received their reward.
Speaker 2: The act was also supposed to encourage victims of theft
Speaker 2: to prosecute the person who had stolen from them and
Speaker 2: to incentivize victims to try to recover their stolen property,
Speaker 2: so again enter the thief takers for help when it
Speaker 2: came to recovering that stolen property. Sometimes a thief taker
Speaker 2: would act on behalf of the victim as a go between,
Speaker 2: helping to negotiate the return of items from those who
Speaker 2: stole them. Sometimes thief takers made deals with thieves turn
Speaker 2: in the stolen goods in exchange for a cut of
Speaker 2: the reward. Sometimes thief takers planted stolen property in order
Speaker 2: to collect the reward for recovering said stolen property. Talking
Speaker 2: about the corrupt opportunities can seem kind of dizzying, but
Speaker 2: there's more. Thief takers were also known to extort money
Speaker 2: from individuals by threatening to accuse them of thievery unless
Speaker 2: they paid a fee. It wasn't rare, either, for thief
Speaker 2: takers to be involved in violent confrontations with the criminals
Speaker 2: they were attempting to capture. They weren't shy about using
Speaker 2: physical force to get their mark and their reward. Some
Speaker 2: thief takers went undercover, pretending to be thieves to infiltrate
Speaker 2: criminal organizations to get their target. As You may imagine
Speaker 2: from how we've spoken about this job so far, it
Speaker 2: may not be a surprise to hear that a lot
Speaker 2: of thief takers were criminals themselves who got into the
Speaker 2: business to give their own crimes some sort of legitimacy
Speaker 2: and themselves some protection. The whole set up religious seems
Speaker 2: to have encouraged corruption, blackmail, perjury, you name it.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a break here for a word from
Speaker 1: our sponsors, and when we're back we will talk about
Speaker 1: Jonathan wild thief Taker General, one of the most famous
Speaker 1: thief takers in England's history.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Criminalia. Now that we know about thief takers,
Speaker 2: let's meet one of the VIPs in the job, Jonathan Wilde.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Wilde was a thief taker, but he was so
Speaker 1: much more. He played both sides of the law. He
Speaker 1: was a thief, a fence, a highway robber, a smuggler,
Speaker 1: a swindler, and engaged in many other nefarious acts before
Speaker 1: he found himself at the gallows at Tiburn.
Speaker 2: Wild grew up in Wolverhampton and Stafford. His father was
Speaker 2: a carpenter and his mother a costermonger. That's a street bender.
Speaker 2: Who sells fruits and vegetables. He was baptized on May sixth,
Speaker 2: but the year is a bit in question. He was
Speaker 2: likely born in sixteen eighty two, but maybe sixteen eighty three,
Speaker 2: or possibly but unlikely, sixteen eighty nine. Because Jonathan was
Speaker 2: bound in an apprenticeship to a buckle maker in Birmingham,
Speaker 2: his formal education ended at age fifteen. As a bound apprentice,
Speaker 2: Wilde was obligated to remain learning the trade for a
Speaker 2: certain period of time. For Jonathan that may have been
Speaker 2: as many as seven years or so. When his term ended,
Speaker 2: he returned to Wolverhampton and married. He and his new
Speaker 2: wife had a son.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't even two years into this marriage when
Speaker 1: Jonathan decided he was going to leave for London. And
Speaker 1: there's no record of why he deserted his wife and
Speaker 1: child for a new start in the city, but we
Speaker 1: do know that at first when he got there, he
Speaker 1: practiced his trade, or tried to. After just a few months,
Speaker 1: though he had already gotten himself so far into debt
Speaker 1: that quote being of extravagant disposition. He was soon arrested
Speaker 1: and thrown into debtors prison at Wood Street Compter during
Speaker 1: the four years that he spent in jail, Wild listened
Speaker 1: and learned about criminal life and its secrets from his
Speaker 1: fellow prisoners, who were mainly petty thieves and tradesmen. He
Speaker 1: also befriended the prison guards at wood Street, who sent
Speaker 1: him on errands, but they also granted him the privilege
Speaker 1: of what was called the liberty of the Gate. That
Speaker 1: meant that he was allowed to be outside the prison
Speaker 1: at night to help apprehend thieves. It was his first taste,
Speaker 1: at least that we know of, of thief taking the
Speaker 1: fact that he was allowed outside the prison walls may
Speaker 1: sound surprising, but Wild was jailed for non payment of debts,
Speaker 1: and some debtors were allowed special privileges that prisoners who
Speaker 1: were incarcerated for criminal offenses were not.
Speaker 2: While Jonathan was at Wood Street, he met Mary Milliner,
Speaker 2: a well known sex worker and pickpocket. She taught him
Speaker 2: everything she knew about being a small time thief. The
Speaker 2: pair moved in together in seventeen twelve after they were
Speaker 2: both released from Wood Street, and she introduced him to
Speaker 2: all of her corrupt contacts. Together, they made a tidy
Speaker 2: bit of money, mainly using a scheme that was known
Speaker 2: as the Buddock and Twang. While Mary entertained clients, Wild
Speaker 2: hit them with a cudgel and robbed them literally with
Speaker 2: their pants down. They opened a public house called the
Speaker 2: King's Head, a criminal friendly establishment. Wild became a small
Speaker 2: time fence. He often bought stolen goods from his patrons
Speaker 2: and resold the items for a profit. Upstairs, Mary managed
Speaker 2: a group of sex workers, and the couple reportedly would
Speaker 2: rob the client tell not just of coins and jewelry,
Speaker 2: but also personal letters and diaries to be used as blackmail.
Speaker 2: Wild began to quote rapidly accumulate property and began to
Speaker 2: think of himself a man of consequence. He dressed in
Speaker 2: least clothes and wore a sword.
Speaker 1: We're gonna pause here again for a word from our sponsors,
Speaker 1: and when we return we will talk about how Wild
Speaker 1: was deeply involved in London's criminal underworld while he was
Speaker 1: also a thief taker, and how that was definitely a
Speaker 1: conflict of interest.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Criminalia. Let's talk about how Jonathan was
Speaker 2: finally caught playing both sides of the law after more
Speaker 2: than a decade of his two faced game.
Speaker 1: There were two celebrated thief takers in England, in the
Speaker 1: eighteenth century Jonathan Wilde and Charles Hitchin. In seventeen thirteen,
Speaker 1: Hitchin had become the under Marshal of London, a post
Speaker 1: that made him responsible for maintaining order in the city.
Speaker 1: It was a paid position that served under the Lord Mayor.
Speaker 1: He wasn't a very good under marshal, though. He was
Speaker 1: suspended after ten months, accused of accepting stolen goods as
Speaker 1: well as engaging in other generally sketchy practices. And he
Speaker 1: was doing all of that. Mostly he was forcing criminals
Speaker 1: to pay him for protection from arrest, and expected businesses
Speaker 1: to bribe him to keep the thieves away from their establishments.
Speaker 2: Both Hitchin and wild practiced thief taking in London. Both
Speaker 2: men also were up to no good, and each had
Speaker 2: built his own criminal empire. Hitchin recruited Jonathan to keep
Speaker 2: the local thieves under control until his suspension was lifted
Speaker 2: and he was reinstated to his office, which happened in
Speaker 2: April of seventeen fourteen. The pair were known to take
Speaker 2: late night walks together under the guise of reforming areas
Speaker 2: of the city considered to be public nuisances. These strolls,
Speaker 2: though were nothing more than excuses to collect protection money
Speaker 2: from the locals and to traffic stolen goods. According to
Speaker 2: the popular Newgate Calendar, a catalog of often moralized stories
Speaker 2: about crimes and criminals, the two grew jealous of each
Speaker 2: other and parted company. But they weren't done done with
Speaker 2: each other, if you know what we mean. Each published
Speaker 2: pamphlets attempting to selly the other's thief taking reputation. Mainly,
Speaker 2: they just lobbed accusations at each other for engaging in
Speaker 2: unethical and criminal dealings.
Speaker 1: But Wild and Hitchin didn't really need each other. There
Speaker 1: was enough to go around legally and illegally. In the
Speaker 1: absence of any police force. They both exploited the strong
Speaker 1: public demand for action during a deepening crime wave in
Speaker 1: the city. It's said that Wild alone sent upwards of
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty people to the gallows. Based on
Speaker 1: his testimonies and leaks from his informants to the authorities,
Speaker 1: many people believed Wild performed a vital public service for
Speaker 1: the city, not only by capturing criminals, but also by
Speaker 1: returning lost valuables to their owners. London citizens supported him,
Speaker 1: presenting himself as an honest Officer of the law. He
Speaker 1: now self titled as thief Taker General of England and Ireland.
Speaker 1: But Londoners didn't know that he had simultaneously built a
Speaker 1: massive criminal empire that has been compared to a mafia
Speaker 1: like enterprise, involving robbery, fencing, prostitution, racketeering and really any
Speaker 1: other crime worth a profit, and he used his legal
Speaker 1: crime fighting role to take down his rivals and launder
Speaker 1: the proceeds of his own crimes.
Speaker 2: By December of seventeen fourteen, Wilde had moved to a
Speaker 2: new house known unofficially as the Office of Intelligence for
Speaker 2: Lost Goods, and he heavily played up his role as
Speaker 2: a middleman who helped victims recover their stolen items from robbers.
Speaker 2: Reported The Bridge his journal at the time, quote, as
Speaker 2: soon as anything is missing suspected to be stolen, the
Speaker 2: first course we steer is directly to the office of
Speaker 2: mister Jonathan Wilde.
Speaker 1: One technique wild used was advertisements in newspapers calling for
Speaker 1: any quote unquote lost valuables to be dropped off at
Speaker 1: his house with the promise of rewards and of course
Speaker 1: no questions asked. And this went both ways. Victims too,
Speaker 1: would advertise for help from thief takers, such as this
Speaker 1: advertisement posted in the London Gazette. Quote robbed the tenth
Speaker 1: of November last from mister Joseph Bullock of Bristol, on
Speaker 1: the road between Hungerford and Newbury and Berkshire, one silver
Speaker 1: watch in case, there being on the backside of the
Speaker 1: case an almanac, a hangar with a plate hilt, a
Speaker 1: buff belt with silver buckles by three men. The one
Speaker 1: a middle sized man, full faced, a short white wig,
Speaker 1: much curled in an old cloth color riding coat, on
Speaker 1: a flea bitten horse about fourteen hands high, his brows brown.
Speaker 1: The other a middle sized black favored on a gray
Speaker 1: horse above fourteen hands high, with black hair or wig
Speaker 1: and thin favor. The other a full set man, thin favored,
Speaker 1: with curled dark brown hair. Whoever can discover the persons
Speaker 1: aforesaid to mister Bullock of Bristol, or at the three
Speaker 1: cups in Bread Street, London, the said robbers, having killed
Speaker 1: one John Thomas, the said mister Bullock's servant, shall have
Speaker 1: their charges and ten pounds reward. Ironically, though, when a
Speaker 1: victim asked wild to help find a thief or recover
Speaker 1: missing items, they did not know that it was highly
Speaker 1: likely that Wild already knew the perpetrators and had the
Speaker 1: items in his possession, because odds were super good that
Speaker 1: he was the one that ordered the theft in the
Speaker 1: first place.
Speaker 2: Regularly, as a way to increase his reputation as an
Speaker 2: honest person, Jonathan would round up a number of known
Speaker 2: thiefs for arrest a look at how safe the city
Speaker 2: is because of me kind of scenario. He almost always
Speaker 2: targeted thieves who didn't cooperate with him, and if anyone
Speaker 2: questioned him, Wild turned them over to public officials.
Speaker 1: In seventeen twenty two, Wild's decade long Lucky Street started
Speaker 1: to sour after he was severely injured by highwayman Joseph Blake. Blueskin,
Speaker 1: as Blake was known, had informed on his gang associates,
Speaker 1: and for doing so, he expected to receive a reward
Speaker 1: from Wild for that information. That was how it was
Speaker 1: supposed to work, but Jonathan instead turned him in and Blueskin,
Speaker 1: surprised and angry over the betrayal, slit Wild's throat. Wild
Speaker 1: survived this attack. It was one of three serious injuries
Speaker 1: he endured while in the thief taking business, and Blueskin
Speaker 1: went on to be executed by hanging.
Speaker 2: Jonathan's criminal and non criminal careers ended a few years
Speaker 2: later when he was arrested in February of seventeen twenty
Speaker 2: five for his alleged involvement and a riot engineer to
Speaker 2: spring an associate from Newgate Prison. He was charged with theft, shoplifting, miscellaneous,
Speaker 2: and perverting justice. His trial began on May thirteenth. While
Speaker 2: his popularity might have led to an acquittal, and he
Speaker 2: had been quite popular for keeping the streets safer, there
Speaker 2: had been a recent growing change in the public's view
Speaker 2: of him. People were beginning to think of him as
Speaker 2: violent and maybe not the kind of person they wanted
Speaker 2: in charge of their safety. Witness testimony at his trial
Speaker 2: revealed that he was both a thief taker and the
Speaker 2: leader of an organized crime organization, and that he benefited
Speaker 2: financially from the return of stolen goods. When they realized
Speaker 2: that their boss was not going to escape justice this time,
Speaker 2: Wilde's Underworld gang turned on him. Because he didn't employ anyone,
Speaker 2: at least not directly, it was always hard to pin
Speaker 2: crimes on him, but it wasn't so hard when his
Speaker 2: associates brought evidence against him. Straight to the court. Testimonies
Speaker 2: against him painted a picture of a Jonathan Wilde, who
Speaker 2: maintained long standing secret correspondence with criminals, had knowingly taken
Speaker 2: possession of items that had been stolen, which is known
Speaker 2: as receiving, and that he had found and fenced stolen
Speaker 2: goods for his own profit. Wild was acquitted of theft,
Speaker 2: but the jury convicted him of an offense that would
Speaker 2: become known as Jonathan Wilde's Act. He was guilty of
Speaker 2: perverting justice because he'd accepted reward without attempting to catch
Speaker 2: or prosecute the thief. He was sentenced to execution.
Speaker 1: In the History of the Life of the Late Mister
Speaker 1: Jonathan Wilde the Great, which was a satirical novel about
Speaker 1: the thief, taker Henry Fielding wrote that wild pickpocketed the
Speaker 1: Newgate Ordinary on the way to the gallows, and quote
Speaker 1: died with the eloquent Troup in his hand. That trophy
Speaker 1: he describes was a corkscrew. Is this the truth, Probably not,
Speaker 1: but it is an accurate nod to how Jonathan just
Speaker 1: couldn't keep his hands out of anyone's pockets. Now branded
Speaker 1: a so called director of a corporation of thieves, and
Speaker 1: a most famous receiver. Wild was executed at Tiburn on
Speaker 1: May twenty fourth, seventeen twenty five, to allegedly cheering crowds.
Speaker 1: The proceedings of the Old Bailey summed up the case
Speaker 1: quite briefly, quote the jury acquitted the prisoner of the
Speaker 1: first indictment of theft and found him guilty of the
Speaker 1: other death.
Speaker 2: One final account of Jonathan to share with you suggests
Speaker 2: that quote. In his gay hours, when his heart was open,
Speaker 2: he took pleasure in recounting his past rogueries, and with
Speaker 2: a great deal of humor, bragged of his biting the world.
Speaker 1: Huh, do you need a swig from the hip flask?
Speaker 2: Let's take a snap and see.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Jonathan happened in terms of like when we
Speaker 1: record at a time that was fortuitous because I had
Speaker 1: been craving a particular type of alcohol and it works
Speaker 1: for this because I wanted to think of something, because
Speaker 1: he had this kind of dual life where people thought
Speaker 1: he was one thing and then discovered he was another,
Speaker 1: or some people knew he was both. Some people liked him,
Speaker 1: some people didn't. I wanted to see if I could
Speaker 1: come up with something that starts with a drink that
Speaker 1: not everyone likes, but could disguise it in a way
Speaker 1: that it tastes yummier to people who think they would
Speaker 1: not like it. Ah, so it's sambuca time at last.
Speaker 1: I know you thought it was gonna be absinthe.
Speaker 2: But I actually thought that we're going to dip artoes
Speaker 2: into kampari again.
Speaker 1: But I mean also that uh no, So right, Sambuca,
Speaker 1: like absinthe, has a strong licorice or annis note, and
Speaker 1: that's what some people either love like me or hate,
Speaker 1: like my beloved. So this is we have a household
Speaker 1: where we can test this right out of the can,
Speaker 1: and like there's like I love for me, which is
Speaker 1: not the drink today, but it's it's the base of
Speaker 1: it a sambuca sour where it's just like two ounces
Speaker 1: of sambuca, an ounce of lemon juice and an ounce
Speaker 1: of syrup, and like put it in a little nick
Speaker 1: and Nora and it's perfect for me, not for everyone.
Speaker 1: The good thing is that's not a super high ABV drink.
Speaker 1: Sambuca is closer to a liqueur, like you don't you
Speaker 1: just don't have as much hoot in it. But I
Speaker 1: was like, how can I take this drink that I
Speaker 1: love desperately and make it a drink that even someone
Speaker 1: who's not into sambuca might like. And so here's what
Speaker 1: we did. The measures are different than what I just said.
Speaker 1: So you are going to into your shaking tin put
Speaker 1: three quarters of an ounce of lemon juice, three quarters
Speaker 1: of an ounce of simple syrup, one and a half
Speaker 1: ounces of sambuca, and a half ounce of vanilla liqueur.
Speaker 1: That's optional because you could also, if you love sambuca
Speaker 1: and you don't want it sweetened up like that, switch
Speaker 1: that out and use vodka instead. You'll get a harder
Speaker 1: hitting drink. But if you just love sambucan don't want
Speaker 1: that that taste obscure, that's your option here. And then
Speaker 1: you're gonna shake that with ice until it's nice and cold,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna strain it over fresh ice, and then
Speaker 1: just kiss it with a couple ounces of club soda.
Speaker 1: And this makes almost like a lemonady looking drink because
Speaker 1: of the lemon or the vanilla liqueur. But here's the thing.
Speaker 1: You can taste the annis note in it, but because
Speaker 1: it has that rounded base note of vanilla, it just
Speaker 1: softens it up in a way, and I gave it
Speaker 1: to my husband. And usually I will say, this has
Speaker 1: the thing you're not gonna like in it, blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, and I did this time as well. And often,
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes I will say, like, just try this
Speaker 1: and tell me what you think, so that there's no
Speaker 1: preconceived notions. But I actually said, this has something you're
Speaker 1: not gonna like in it. And I gave it to
Speaker 1: him and he drank it and said, oh, that's not bad,
Speaker 1: which is so we have made sambuca into something he
Speaker 1: would drink. Oh, Like I said, if you love sambuca,
Speaker 1: put in vodka instead. Listen you'll there will be more drinkies,
Speaker 1: but it's not a lot more vodka, but it kicks
Speaker 1: it up a little bit. To do a mocktail version
Speaker 1: of this, we're gonna make it super simple. So you
Speaker 1: just need an Annis or a licorice syrup. You can
Speaker 1: find Annis syrup online. It's super easy. Again, a vanilla
Speaker 1: syrup is optional. You could also if you wanted, grate
Speaker 1: a little fresh vanilla in there or put a little
Speaker 1: vanilla extract. You just want to kiss it with vanilla
Speaker 1: so that the licorice gets grounded and then same thing,
Speaker 1: lemon juice, a little simple syrup, and just I would
Speaker 1: put more soda in those, so you're essentially making like
Speaker 1: an anis and vanilla soda and just let it be
Speaker 1: a nice give it a good swizzle with your barspoon,
Speaker 1: or if you just want to swizzle it around with
Speaker 1: your straw, that's fine. But it makes a nice summer sip.
Speaker 1: It's also more than one hundred degrees here, so that's
Speaker 1: part of why I wanted to do a drink that
Speaker 1: went over ice and had a little more liquid to
Speaker 1: it that would be a little more hydrating, because the
Speaker 1: real feel is one hundred and eight right now, and
Speaker 1: I need I need something to soften that eat. And
Speaker 1: we're calling this one up to no Good because that
Speaker 1: seems like the only appropriate thing for a Jonathan Wild
Speaker 1: drink because it includes the word good in it. But
Speaker 1: that wasn't what he was actually doing, so we're remaking
Speaker 1: it into something that hides it's true nature a little bit.
Speaker 1: That's Jonathan Wild for you. Thank you for giving me
Speaker 1: this opportunity to drink sambouca Maria. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: really need permission, but I have been craving it and
Speaker 1: it was a good excuse. So there you go. You're welcome.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love it. I'll just man put that
Speaker 1: in a poost cafe and when I get to that layer,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited and I'm so excited. If you make
Speaker 1: this you find it yummy. If you are a licorice person,
Speaker 1: like I said, and you make the cocktail version, which
Speaker 1: I am, Oh man, give me black licorice everything. I
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, throw that baby together in your set
Speaker 1: for summer. We hope if you make this that you
Speaker 1: find it yummy. We will be right back here again
Speaker 1: next week with another tale of highway robbery and some
Speaker 1: drinks to go along with it. Criminalia is a production
Speaker 1: of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from Shondaland Audio, please is it the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,