WEBVTT - Hwang's Stiff Sentence, Trump's Revenge & Mass Torts 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.920 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.400 Former billionaire investor Bill Huang was sentenced to eighteen years 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.720 in federal prison today over the stunning collapse of Arcago's 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:23.920 capital management, which the prosecutor called a national calamity. In July, 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.800 a jury convicted h Wong on ten criminal charges, including 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.760 wire fraud, securities fraud, and market manipulation for orchestrating a 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.760 scheme to mislead banks into providing Arkagos with billions of 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.920 dollars in trading capacity, which ultimately led to the collapse 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.240 that cost Wall Street Banks more than ten billion dollars. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.080 Joining me as Bloomberg Legal reporter Chris Domesh who covered 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.440 the trial and was in the courtroom for the sentencing. Chris, 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:57.160 this sentencing didn't follow this sort of normal script or procedures. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.440 It was really just very bisarreble knowing procedures are very 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.560 straightforward and move it a very time capted script. You know, 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.959 the two sides get up, they argue over sentencing guidelines 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.200 and other things in the presending report, and then you know, 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.399 the government gets up, they make their arguments for whatever 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.520 their recommendation is. The defense gets up and they make 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.080 their recommendation. In this case, it kind of proceeded very slowly, 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.160 in an odd way, and the judge said at the beginning, oh, well, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:25.319 this might take all day long. We might have to 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.839 come back tomorrow morning, which everyone was like, that's very bizarre. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.640 We don't see many two day sentencing hearings. In the end, 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:33.800 that is what happened. But he did pronounce sentence today, 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.000 and there was a lot of back and forth between 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:38.800 the judge and the defense lawyers. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.600 It just didn't go, you know, by scripts. 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.399 As it usually does, and in the end, the judge 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.720 pronounced sentence without kind of making this the soliloquy that 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.600 he usually does when when they're pronouncing sentences, which is 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.600 to repeat all the factors they have to take into consideration, deterrence, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.360 the seriousness of the offense, all those things, and instead 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.320 he just kind of pronounced them in a very succinct, 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.280 quick manner. And they're coming back tomorrow morning to talk 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.600 about some remaining issues, which include forfeiture and possible bail 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:09.360 pending appeal. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.840 The prosecutors had asked for twenty one years, which is 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.160 a heavy sentence in a white collar case, and the 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.440 judge gave them close to what they wanted. Eighteen years. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.320 That's a long sentence, especially considering that he's sixty years old. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.799 Yes, the one thing you can kind of take from 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.160 that his attorneys that asked for no jail time, and 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.000 the judge called that ridiculous. He took the defense attorneys 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.440 to task on that request and kind of drilled down 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.240 on them to get them to come up with what 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.359 they thought was a more reasonable sentencing recommendation, which in 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.919 the end was forty six to fifty seven months. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.160 And clearly the judge felt that. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.080 Given the amount of losses in this case, he didn't 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.160 really have the opportunity to send a lesser sentence here. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.440 If you get more than I think it's eleven and 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.960 a half years, you have to go basically a higher 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.960 security prison that leads to all kinds of others, whereas 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.080 a lesser sentence would maybe send him to a minimum 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:04.919 security or a camp or something like that. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:05.919 So that's what they. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.360 Wanted, but in the end the judge clearly was not 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.560 swayed by any of that. And this is a pretty 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.320 heavy sentence for a sixty year old man. 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:18.600 Hwang is a devout Christian and his nonprofit foundation has 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.040 donated something like six hundred million dollars to different causes 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:23.079 like homelessness. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.480 Did the judge take that into consideration. 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.640 Well, he did to actually take that into consideration, he 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.040 just didn't seem to give it much weight, and he 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.120 said essentially that a lifetime of good work doesn't offset 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.720 the massive clauses in this case. You know, one of 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.040 the factors that the judges have to consider when they're 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.720 sentencing people is specific deterrence as to whether the individual 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.119 would you do it again? And clearly the judge said, look, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.400 I'm not worried about that year. You know, he's a 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.240 sixty year old man. He's probably not going to commit 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.520 another crime. But he's a little worried about, you know, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.120 his indifference towards what happened to him in the past 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.960 when his former firm, Tigler Global pleaded guilty and that 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.080 led to the formation Barkingos. But like I said, in 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.880 the end, the judge was not swayed by that. Look, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.040 Bill has a great reputation in terms of outside of 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.480 these allegations. You know, he's well liked by his friends, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.920 he's known for his charitable works, he's a religious man. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.400 But just those things alone don't offset a thirty six 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:19.480 billion dollar loss. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.159 What was the prosecutor's argument for why they wanted so 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:24.279 much jail time? 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.760 Was it under the sentencing guidelines. 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.200 The sentencing guidelines are actually much more draftonian than that. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.360 They would call for him to serve two hundred years 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.520 in prison, and that's the kind of sentences that are 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.600 normally reserved for people who commit mass murder or terrorists 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.000 or things like that. So they were well within their 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.480 bounds to argue for this, And there arguments that are really 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.279 driven by the losses and the fact that other people 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.799 were hurt by this, not just the banks, including his employees, 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.680 some of whom lost millions of dollars into third compensation 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.600 and lost their job. The prosecution clearly wanted him to 0:04:58.640 --> 0:04:59.640 go to jail for a long time. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:00.440 Seeded. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.520 Usually in white collar crime we see much lower sentences 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.240 just because the losses tend to drive up the guidelines 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.000 and what they recommend. You don't usually see the government 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:11.920 get close to what it wants when it wants to 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.719 draw cunning and. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.200 That's what made it surprising when I saw the number. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.160 What was Wong's reaction? 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.800 He really didn't react, which is kind of keeping with 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.200 how he's been throughout the trial, very stoic and drinking 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.800 water throughout, staring straight ahead, and you know, presumably he 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.919 thinks he has a shot on appeal. They've asked for 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.880 bail pending appeals. You know, the judge himself acknowledges their 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:34.800 issues that are right for appeal. The one thing he 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.159 kind of took the prosecution it's pasked for, is the 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.840 argument that he is unrepentant. And the judge said, he's 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.960 always kind of uncomfortable with arguments like that by the 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.560 prosecutors because people have a right to fight the charges 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.400 against them. And he said, vastly maintain he's not guilty here, 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.240 so he has that right. And the judge said, you know, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.640 he doesn't really like this kind of arguments. Whether that 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.680 appeal will be successful is obviously something at it for 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:01.640 the future. 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:03.200 On that point. 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.120 That's what makes it difficult sometimes for these defendants who 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.719 are appealing to then speak to the judge and tell 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:11.760 them they're remorseful. 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:13.320 What did Wang say. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.080 Yeah, he stopped short of that, for sure. That's a 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.720 good question. Often you see defendants kind of, you know, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.000 make their case to the judge, get emotional Bill thanks 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.200 the judge for taking the time to be thorough in 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.760 reading his sentencing letters that his friends and family sent 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:31.920 to him, and he praised his friends and family for 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.119 writing the sentencing them most and he said he felt 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.880 bad for the people who suffered. But I would say 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.560 that the statements stopped short of admitting that he did 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.440 something wrong. And maybe that is because of the appeal. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.320 And certainly, you know, we see that often. 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.440 Not during the trial. A lot of his supporters came 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.039 every day. Did they have any reaction to the sentence? 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.320 They seem to hang their heads. They were here every day. 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.719 They spent a lot of time in the courtroom, in 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.280 the cafeteria, in the courthouse, and they were there for 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.200 him the whole time. And he thanked them and he 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.880 greeted them today just like he did every day of 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:06.360 the trial. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.560 Did the defense ever tell his story, I mean, he 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.120 has an amazing story, really a rags to Riches's story. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.440 He came here from Korea and had nothing. 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.520 They did go into that. That was kind of the 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.440 heart of their initial argument, is that you know that 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.840 he came here when he was a teenager. His father 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.080 had gotten a job as a pastor, and he emigrated 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.160 when he was nineteen, came here seeking better, you know, 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.920 treatment options for a legally blind brother, and then his 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.400 father died within years of him arriving here, and they 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.920 had to find a way to survive because a job 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.239 as a line cook a McDonald's worked at swap meets, 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.920 and then moved to la with three thousand dollars to 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.320 his name and lived in the shed in the back 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.760 of a church with his family. They played up the charity, 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.640 you know, they said this was not a scheme. Really, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.600 it was an effort to help people. They don't want 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.880 to make everything he did seem like some sort of 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.840 nefarious when they argued these were just for you know, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.240 he's a god fearing man and these were his attempts 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:07.840 to do good by his community. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.600 What about restitution? 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.920 How much do the prosecutors say was lost here and 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.920 how much restitution do they expect? I understand he says 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.240 he's not a billionaire anymore. 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.280 Yeah, he says he only has fifty five million dollars, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.320 some of which are in enjoying assets with his wife. Yeah. Actually, 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.880 restitution is being deferred for a little while. They're going 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.319 to talk about forfeiture tomorrow and possibly any other issues 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.600 like bail, pending appeal and maybe you know, reporting dates, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.640 the kind of things that come at the end of 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.199 sentencing hearings. After somebody's been pronounced with. 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.200 Forfeiture, would they have to trace it back to his 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.239 alleged misdeeds somehow? I mean, how would they decide forfeiture? 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.880 So that's probably the most difficult proposition here. 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.280 The defense says there should be no forfeiture. That argument 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.719 seems to be a little less forceful than they're one 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.839 about restitution. But the government is seeking nine point eight 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.839 billion dollars in restitution as reimbursement for the victims the 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.920 counterparty banks, and they're seeking more than twelve billion dollars 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:14.680 in forfeiture. Now, the government acknowledges here that he doesn't 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:15.360 have the money. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.280 They say that regardless of the fact. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.959 That he doesn't have the money, these shills should be 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.840 subject to the forfeiture amount, just like say drug dealers 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.720 who are convicted, who do a drug deal and lose 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.840 the drugs. It was a very interesting artist, you know 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.640 it often that often is a confusing proposition for people. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.600 Why are you going to ask somebody to forfeit money 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.959 they don't have, But I guess it's a tempting to 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.960 establish a framework for anyone who would would seek to 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:44.240 recover money in the kid. 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.280 Does the judge think he has more money than he's saying, 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.360 because I noticed the judge said something about Huong buying 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.439 a new condo in Hudson Yards. 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.120 Yes, he did, note that it's hard to say the 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.160 judge did. There's an extended question on that, so he's 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.520 definitely not clear on what he needs to do here 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.480 or how it could be done. So that that is 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.400 going to be the meat of tomorrow's argument. 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.600 And as far as appellet issues, do we already know 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.680 one of the issues because the judge kirktailed Wong's defense. 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.280 Yeah, that's certainly one of the issues that they're going 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.760 to raise. You know, they certainly raised it in some 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.000 of their post trial briefings, in their in their applications 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.720 for bail pending appeal, they've noted that they call out 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.400 some of the expert testimony for the prosecution's expert when 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.840 she calculated that some of the the trading losses were 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:43.400 directly attributable to to Wong conduct or misrepresentations, and they 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.400 say that that can't be proven. So, you know, whether 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.600 or not he actually they can they can attribute that there. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.800 That might be one of the main things for appeal. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:55.640 So a lot more to come, Chris, and I know 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.680 you'll be there tomorrow to tell us about it. Thanks 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.960 so much. That's bloom Our legal reporter Christopher Domesh coming 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.959 up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. Donald Trump has 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.240 vowed to get revenge on a long list of prosecutors, 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.720 political opponents, and private citizens. Will he use the Justice 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.600 Department to do that? I'm June Grosso and you're listening 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:18.280 to Bloomberg. 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.480 It's the enemy from within, all the scum that we 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.720 have to deal with that hate our country. That's a 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.839 bigger enemy than China and Russia. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:33.000 Donald Trump has long railed against his perceived enemies from 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.959 within and vowed to get revenge on a long list 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:40.600 of prosecutors, political opponents, and private citizens. And there seems 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.760 to be little doubt that the President elect intends to 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.160 use the Justice Department to help him get his revenge. 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:52.240 We will completely overhaul Kamala's corrupt Department of Injustice. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.000 And now Trump is putting together a team of loyalists 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.240 at the Justice Department that would be positioned to carry 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.720 out his vows of retribution. Joining me is Steven Gillers, 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.439 an ethics professor at NYU Law School. What does the 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:10.640 choice of Matt Gates as Attorney General signal to you? 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.400 Well, a lot of things. His selection has created a 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:21.040 kind of apocalyptic response in the American bar. He is 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:26.920 subsingularly inappropriate to serve as Attorney General by experience or 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:32.439 temperament or knowledge that the only explanation for this election 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.560 is that Trump wants someone heading Justice who will be 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.400 devoted to Trump over any other consideration, and who will 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:47.160 follow Trump's instructions about targeting what Trump views as his enemies. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.800 Trump has been very open on the campaign trail about 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:57.000 getting revenge against those who supposedly wronged him, and reportedly 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.760 some current and former Justice depart and FBI officials are 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:06.560 already contacting lawyers in anticipation of being investigated. I mean, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.760 do you think that they need to be worried even 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.920 if they don't think they did anything wrong. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.400 Yeah, they need to be worried because even if they 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.200 did nothing wrong, and even if they are vindicated in 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.240 any civil or criminal case that the Justice Department brings 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:27.199 against them, the cost of the vindication can be enormous 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:33.280 in terms of lawyer fees, anxiety, lost time at their job. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.800 So yeah, they should be worried. They should lawyer up. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.280 They should take Trump at his word. They should expect 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:45.000 to be a subject of investigation. Remember back in the 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:51.160 first Trump administration, there was an IRS investigation of James Comy. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.360 Now that's the IRS, not the Justice Department, but a 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.800 full IRS Audit is I'm consuming expensive. It has been 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:07.839 described as the legal equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's very 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.880 dispiriting to have to go through that, and Komi had 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.840 to go through that. As it happened, it turned out 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:19.200 that the RS found that he overpaid his taxes. But nonetheless, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.560 the cost of getting to that point for Coombe in 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.400 money and anxiety would have been enormous. Well, the same 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.920 thing can happen in civil or criminal investigations by the 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:30.960 Justice Department. 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.800 Also, if you investigate someone long and hard enough, you 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.920 can find other things in their past that may be 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:43.280 illegal but not connected to the investigation, like tax infractions 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.720 or smoking marijuana where it isn't legal. Special Counsel John 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:52.640 Durham conducted years and years of investigations and the only guilty. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.720 Ply he got was from an FBI lawyer who had 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.880 lied on some documents. So something not related to the 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.320 purpose of an investigation, right. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:07.000 You know, a thorough investigation can turn up evidence or 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.840 a parent evidence of wrongdoing civil or criminals that wasn't 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.360 on your radar screen when you started the investigation. When 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.760 you turn over every document, when you look at every email, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.880 you could find things that arguably indicate some basis for 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.600 a lawsuit or an indictment that you didn't know about 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.960 at the beginning. But again, you know, if someone is 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:36.000 charged with a crime in fact or suits civilly, ultimately 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.520 there's a trial. If there's no settlement and there's a judge, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.360 the government can cause a lot of pain without ever 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.440 having to prove a case a trial. Just by conducting 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.520 the investigation. It can bring a case to trial and 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:57.280 drop the case. So vindication is not a victory for 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:02.400 the target of the government. Hostility and eviction or a 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:07.520 money judgment is not necessarily the goal of a justice 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:13.400 department that is out for revenge. The cost in money, 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.240 time and anxiety alone can be extremely punishing. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.320 Special Counsel Jack Smith is one of the people that 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.760 Trump has mentioned over and over and over again. What 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.120 kind of investigation or prosecution of Smith. 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:31.200 Can they do well? 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.960 Smith is an interesting situation and from Trump's point of 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.080 view judgment from what he has said, Smith is Trump 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.960 Enemy number one. He must be in the President's site 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:49.480 as the dominant person to terrorize with legal remedies and 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:54.480 legal threats. Now anything Jack Smith did to antagonize the President, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.920 as Trump saw it, he would have done as an 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.960 employee the Justice Department. Jack Smith is in a summer 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.000 different positions than other potential alleged enemies. He would have 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.080 to be defended by the government. That is, a Justice 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.920 Department lawyer who is accused of wrongdoing after leading government 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.640 is entitled to a government defend. There are some exceptions, 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:20.520 but if the wrongdoing or the alleged wrongdoing is within 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.040 the scope of the lawyer's job, the government will defend him. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.919 Now Here, that's not possible because there will be the 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.960 government itself that is targeting Jack Smith. So the Justice 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.760 Department can't be both the prosecutor and the defense lawyer, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.320 and so Jack Smith will have to be provided with 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.560 the cost of a highly skilled defense law firm to 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:52.160 respond to any DOJ effort to investigate or prosecute him. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.520 That may be good for Jack Smith in the sense 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.240 that he doesn't have to pay out of his own pocket, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.120 although even there I imagine that DOJ might argue that 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.400 Smith is not entitled to the cost of a defense 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.080 for some reason that justice comes up with, and then 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.200 that question has to be litigated, and Smith will need 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.280 a lawyer to represent him on the question of whether 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.360 or not the government has to defend him or pay 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.760 for his defense when the charge comes from the government itself. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.640 So litigation before the litigation. What about Manhattan District Attorney 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.000 Alvin Bragg, who brought the hush money case, the only 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.240 case against Trump to actually go to trial. Trump has 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.600 excoriated him, and also New York Attorney General Letitia James, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.639 who won that four hundred and fifty million dollar verdict 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:43.400 against Trump. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.800 Well, Bragg and James are also in the Trump target range. 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.160 Both of them will get a defense from New York States, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.840 so neither of them would expect to have to pay 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.240 out of their own profit for the court of a defense. Indeed, 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.640 the state might defend them through a state agency, or 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:07.880 it might pay for private counsel, so that's beneficial for them. 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.399 They don't have to bankrupt themselves defending themselves. But again, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.960 the anxiety and the time commitment of fighting the government 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:22.879 can be extremely painful, even if the cost of the 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.400 defense is borne by the government itself. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.240 I'm trying to think of what kind of prosecution the 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.000 Justice Department could bring against either one of them. I mean, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.679 Trump has said over and over again that they brought 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.800 these cases for political reasons. That claim fail before the 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.040 trial judges. I mean, is any of that actionable? 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.360 There is no doubt that Trump lawyers, be the publical 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:54.720 private would be able to articulate a remotely plausible theory 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.600 for targeting James or Bratt, a theory that will fail 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.000 in court. But all you need to do to get 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.920 revenge is to conduct the investigation. Now, it is unlikely 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:10.600 that the Justice Department will ever represent Trump against Bragg 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.879 or James. Trump would have to get private counsel to 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:19.240 bring those cases. I don't see how the investigations by 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.359 Bragg and James can be turned into a DOJ case 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.800 as opposed to a private case brought by Trump himself. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.960 He may do that. Another option for Trump if he 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.720 wants to get even with Bragg and James. He doesn't 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.080 have to pursue his own claims. He can just call 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:45.000 up any of the relevant regulatory agencies. Of course, the 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.080 irs is the most obvious, but truly not the only 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.840 to look into their behavior in going after him, and 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.760 that could be enough to cause them a great deal 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.520 of anguish even if nothing comes of it. 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.560 I assume out the wind though, is the idea of 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:07.040 the Justice Department being nonpartisan and being independent of the 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:07.679 White House. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.880 Yeah, you know at Bonham. The problem here is that 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.280 the Supreme Court has told us that the president controls 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.680 all power of the executive branch, all of it. That's 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.679 a direct quote, all of it, And so Trump can 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.920 control the agenda for DJ There's no check and balance 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:36.040 within the executive branch, and Trump is the decider all 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.840 by himself about what the executive branch will will not 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:44.399 do in the way of exercise of executive power. So 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:50.040 the tradition of norms by which the Justice Department operates 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:55.360 independently of the president, that tradition is not legally mandated, 0:21:55.760 --> 0:22:00.840 and Trump did change it by an effect through Gates 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.800 taking control of the decisions of the Justice Department that 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.400 are of particular interest to him. Ninety nine point ninety 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.280 nine percent of what DOJ does will be of no 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.160 interest in Trump at all, But a sliver of matters 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.960 will be of great interest to him because they benefit 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:25.120 him or friends of his, or because they target his enemies. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.720 And where those matters arise or could rise, Trump is 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.480 the decider. And so what we've done is flip the 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:37.800 switch so that at one time the Attorney General was 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:42.159 the decider and the executive the White House stayed away 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:46.960 from those decisions. Now, for a very small but important 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.480 sliver of DOJ decisions, the White House will be the decider. 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.639 And there's nothing that DOJ lawyers can do to resist that, 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.600 and the ones that Trump has chosen may not wish 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:00.359 to reap. 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.800 Trump also has chosen two of his personal lawyers who 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:10.359 represented him at the Hushbunny trial for top positions at 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.320 the Justice Department, with his attorney Todd Blanche taking the 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.200 number two spot at DOJ. 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:18.760 Does that raise alarms or is it concerning? 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.359 Yeah? It is concerning because you want people running Justice 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:25.960