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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: Guys, thank you for being with me. I know this

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Speaker 2: is a departure from our usual analysis of murder trials

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Speaker 2: and high stakes games lawyers play in court criminal investigations.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about an investigation of

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Speaker 2: a different sort. I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 2: the truth of the Shroud of Teuran. And I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you why, because today a phenomenal book has hit the market.

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Speaker 2: I already got up this morning and got it on

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Speaker 2: Amazon in kindle form. It's called The Only Witness, and

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Speaker 2: I want to show you the picture of the front

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Speaker 2: of it. The Only Witness a History of the Shroud

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Speaker 2: of Turan, and it is written by a friend and colleague,

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Speaker 2: Gui Powell. I have known Gai for many many years

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Speaker 2: through our Sunday school class that he led for years,

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Speaker 2: and when I heard he was writing this book, I

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Speaker 2: was so happy because when I first heard learned about

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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turan as a Christian, or try to

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Speaker 2: be a Christian, a seeker, I'm more of a seeker

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Speaker 2: of Christ. I was so thrilled. And it was many

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Speaker 2: many years ago that I learned about the Shroud of Tehran.

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Speaker 2: And then there were the debunkers, and I've got to

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Speaker 2: tell you, I almost wished I hadn't heard what they said,

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Speaker 2: because I wanted very much to believe that the Shroud

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Speaker 2: of Turin was real. Whether it is or isn't changes

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Speaker 2: nothing about the resurrection. Now apparently the debunkers have been debunked.

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Speaker 2: What is the truth with me? Is Guy Powell, author

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Speaker 2: of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turan. Guy,

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to get to speak to you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Nancy, And I really like your

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Speaker 3: introduction because back in nineteen seventy eight is when I

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Speaker 3: really first learned about it. There was a I can't

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Speaker 3: remember it for the time, or a Life magazine article

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Speaker 3: that I said, Wow, what's that. I'd never heard of that,

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Speaker 3: and that then kind of got me interested in it.

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Speaker 3: And then when you talk about the debunkers, that was

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight when a handful of scientists and laboratories

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Speaker 3: did some radiocarbon testing on it and they came out

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Speaker 3: at the end and said that the shroud is from

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Speaker 3: dates from twelve sixty to thirteen ninety. And then at

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Speaker 3: that moment, then you know, I heard that and I said,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, it's fake.

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Speaker 2: You know, wait just a minute, guy Powell, we don't

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Speaker 2: say omg on ng.

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Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, thank you. So so in anyway, in any

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Speaker 3: case they said the shroud is fake, it was. They

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Speaker 3: said they flogged it, they faked it.

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Speaker 2: And oh wait, just talk right there. Yeah. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever seen those movies where there is like an evangelical

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Speaker 2: pastor and you can't see me, but I'm using air

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Speaker 2: quotes when I say pastor and they're healing people and

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Speaker 2: they turn out to be a big fraud. Or when

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Speaker 2: you hear about a pastor or a preacher that is

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Speaker 2: like cheated on his wife, and I say he is,

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Speaker 2: there are female pastors. In fact, our church is about

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Speaker 2: to get a female pastor. They cheat on the wife

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Speaker 2: and with all these ladies. I remember a case I

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Speaker 2: covered at Court TV. It was the case of Rabbi

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Speaker 2: Fred Neilander, and he was a renowned rabbi. I believe

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Speaker 2: he was saying, hey, sid could you look. I think

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Speaker 2: he was in Cherry Hill, anywhere, somewhere really rich where

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Speaker 2: all the rich people are, and this very very tony synagogue, cheating, cheating,

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Speaker 2: Cheery Hill. Okay, yeah, and I'm getting there. Wait a minute.

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Speaker 2: You know, you know how I go off in tangents sometimes.

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Speaker 2: So he killed his wife. Long story short, and I

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Speaker 2: remember listening to his son speaking. You know, when something

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Speaker 2: to do with our Judeo Christian heritage is debunk or

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Speaker 2: they take a chink in the armor, I just feel

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Speaker 2: like it's fodder for naysayers. And when I heard the

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Speaker 2: Shroud of Turin was a fake, I'm like, oh, that's

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Speaker 2: a black eye. That's another black eye for us. I mean,

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Speaker 2: so I was very I was disappointed when I heard that.

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Speaker 2: You know, justice when anything to do with our beliefs,

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Speaker 2: even when our government, for Pete's sake, when you find

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Speaker 2: out that there has been some sort of wrongdoing and

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Speaker 2: the highest arena within our government, it's a kick in

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Speaker 2: the teeth. Or when I hear about a cop, a

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Speaker 2: dirty cop coming from l E. Law enforcement, I take

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Speaker 2: it really personally. So this means a lot to me. Guy,

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Speaker 2: Now you're saying that when you heard about the shout

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Speaker 2: of tearing back in the seventies, Okay, pick it up

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So there was a group of scientists that

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Speaker 3: went over and their primary purpose was to determine what

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Speaker 3: made that image on there and the team was made

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Speaker 3: up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics. That had

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Speaker 3: a couple of Jews on there, and I had a

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Speaker 3: couple of atheists. And when they got done studying the

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Speaker 3: shroud of one hundred and twenty consecutive hours over five

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Speaker 3: days straight, all of them came back and they said,

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Speaker 3: this is not a painting. It has not died, it

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Speaker 3: has not stained. It is something that they have never

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Speaker 3: seen before, that it is not you know, probably or

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Speaker 3: most likely not created by the hands of man. That

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Speaker 3: was kind of their conclusion.

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Speaker 2: Now let me understand, so this is the group that

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Speaker 2: d bunked the d bunkers, Well, this is.

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Speaker 3: Actually no, this is actually before that. And one of

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Speaker 3: the tests that they wanted to run at that time

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Speaker 3: and they weren't allowed to was a radio carbon dating.

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Speaker 3: And the problem with radio carbon dating.

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Speaker 2: Like carbon fourteen is that what you're saying, carbon fourteen.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right, radio carbon dating using carbon fourteen. And

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Speaker 3: the problem with that is that it is a destructive test.

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Speaker 3: So you have to take a sample out of the shroud.

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Speaker 3: You have to cut a sample out of the shroud,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, you know, that's a if this is

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Speaker 3: truly the relic that is the Burial o'clock or Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to touch it and you don't want

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Speaker 3: to cut anything out of it. And so it took

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Speaker 3: another ten years in nineteen eighty eight when samples were

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Speaker 3: actually cut under a lot of scrutiny, but also done

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Speaker 3: it cut incorrectly. Where they took those samples from was

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Speaker 3: not agreed was not the agreed on places. And so

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Speaker 3: they did the testing and as I mentioned before, the

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Speaker 3: results of that testing were that the date of the shroud,

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Speaker 3: according to that test, was twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult. From my scientific background. I deal with

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Speaker 2: DNA data, hard data every day. It's very hard for

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Speaker 2: me to reject carbon fourteen dating.

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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. And so for probably twenty years, the research

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Speaker 3: on the shroud kind of fell apart, and you know,

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Speaker 3: everything went dark. There wasn't really much done. There was

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Speaker 3: a lot of you know, a lot of depression about

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Speaker 3: the you know, hey, what are we doing now? It's

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Speaker 3: fake And yet we don't know how that image was made,

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Speaker 3: This wonderful image of this man that clearly suffered was crucified.

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Speaker 3: And then this cloth somehow picked up an image of that.

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Speaker 3: And then it was only recently and I don't remember

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Speaker 3: exactly the date now that the raw data that went

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Speaker 3: into the carbon fourteen testing that the raw data was

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Speaker 3: made public and it was it was made public by

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Speaker 3: the British Museum only at the at the urging and

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Speaker 3: the constant urging by a handful of people and in

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Speaker 3: particular one Tristane Costabianca, and he got the data and

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Speaker 3: found out that they had they had flogged it. They

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Speaker 3: had flogged the data that they used, and there's some

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Speaker 3: statistical tests that are done and without getting into the

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Speaker 3: details of that, they purpet well, it is believed that

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Speaker 3: they purposefully flogged the data using their word and they

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Speaker 3: did not follow the statistical rigor that would need to

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Speaker 3: be done on the results that they got, and yet

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Speaker 3: they published it anyway. And it's now as that now

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Speaker 3: has because I mean coming to light and you know

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Speaker 3: here over the last few years that now there's d bunker,

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Speaker 3: these three de bunkers, these labs have now been debunked.

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Speaker 3: And that's one test that.

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Speaker 1: They did as well, Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: So the d bunkers come in, they c fourteen, carbon fourteen,

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Speaker 2: the shroud of Turin, and they say that the shroud

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Speaker 2: was created. I believe you said with the eighteen hunt.

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Speaker 2: When did you say?

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Speaker 3: Twelve sixty, twelve sixty two, thirteen ninety.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And it's very very difficult for me to reject. Well,

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Speaker 2: I cannot reject the car A fourteen test because I

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Speaker 2: know it to be true. You are now telling me, guy,

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Speaker 2: that they data used in the carbon fourteen test was

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Speaker 2: intentionally skewed to prove falsely the shoud of Turin was

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Speaker 2: a fake.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So one of the things when you get

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Speaker 3: so what happens is that the carbon fourteen test and

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Speaker 3: the results from their test on the samples and that's

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Speaker 3: a critical word, on the samples that they took, are

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Speaker 3: most likely correct that the date of those samples actually

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Speaker 3: range from somewhere between twelve twelve sixty to thirteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: The problem is twofold. The first one is where did

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Speaker 3: they take those samples from on the shroud? Number one. Normally,

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Speaker 3: what you would do is, if you really really wanted

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Speaker 3: to do a pure scientific test, you would take a

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Speaker 3: sample from one corner from the middle, from the edge,

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Speaker 3: another corner, you would take them all around the whole claw.

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Speaker 3: You would not take them from exactly the same place.

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Speaker 3: The second thing is because they didn't do that, and

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Speaker 3: that was the agreed on approach, and then all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden they decided not to do that. They took

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Speaker 3: it from one spot. Well, the spot that they took

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Speaker 3: it from had potentially two things wrong with it. First

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Speaker 3: of all, when the shroud was displayed over the last

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Speaker 3: two millennia, that is where the shroud was held by

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Speaker 3: the bishops and the senior church hierarchy when they actually

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Speaker 3: wanted to display it to the public, So the grime

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Speaker 3: on your hands, the oil on your hands would contaminate

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Speaker 3: and probably dominated that spot that it took.

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Speaker 2: He just said, something I can connect to contaminate, like

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Speaker 2: contaminated DNA. So what I think you're saying, and of

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Speaker 2: course I'm a jd I'm no scientist, is that. Of

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Speaker 2: course it is not the carbon fourteen method that is

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Speaker 2: in question, because it simply is not, just like evolution

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Speaker 2: is not in question. That's the way it happened. Now,

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Speaker 2: how you want to look at evolution through the filter

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Speaker 2: of Adam and eve that's the whole other can of worms.

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Speaker 2: But carbon fourteen testing is not the problem here. The problem,

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Speaker 2: as I understand you saying, is that the linin itself

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Speaker 2: is very very polluted, contaminated by for instance, where it

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Speaker 2: was kept, how it was handled over all those years.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying? So the carbon fourteen testing

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Speaker 2: and pristine laboratory conditions would have been fine, but that

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Speaker 2: the object, the shroud itself was polluted.

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Speaker 3: That is, uh, there's and there's two or three areas,

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Speaker 3: but yes, that's the first one.

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Speaker 2: Is there aren't traces of fungus and calcium carbonate found.

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Speaker 3: That's a different thing. But yes, there were traces of

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Speaker 3: calcium carbonate and uh, and other other dust that is

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Speaker 3: only found in Jerusalem.

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Speaker 2: And isn't it true that certain areas of the shroud

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Speaker 2: were darned in other words, repaired later on?

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Speaker 3: And yes, absolutely, And that's been the second dimension of

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Speaker 3: why potentially the the the carbon dating was wrong in

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Speaker 3: that that area where the shroud is held hundreds and

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Speaker 3: maybe thousands of times. Is that that area where they

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Speaker 3: took that sample not only may have been contaminated by

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Speaker 3: may have been repaired with modern material.

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Speaker 2: Wow, you know, guy, I remember when I heard I

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Speaker 2: read that the Shroud of Turin was a fake. I

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Speaker 2: remember that moment like I remember where I was exactly

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Speaker 2: when I found out Elvis Presley was killed, or that

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Speaker 2: you know that the war in Ukraine had started, just

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Speaker 2: the OJ Verdict or just O J. Simpson, very so

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Speaker 2: many moments in time you never forget. And I remember

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Speaker 2: immediately running to David, to whom I'm now married, and saying,

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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turin is a fake. And I was upset,

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Speaker 2: although I have absolutely no connection to the Shroud of

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Speaker 2: Turin at all, and in my mind, whether it's real

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Speaker 2: or not real has no bearing on the truth of

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Speaker 2: Christ's teachings.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm going to ask you, s absolutely, guy, what

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Speaker 2: led you to write The Only Witness, a History of

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Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turan.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of funny. So we had the seventy

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Speaker 3: eight research, we had the nineteen eighty eight debunking, and

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Speaker 3: then about I don't know, fifteen twenty years later, my

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Speaker 3: brother sent me a book on the Shroud of Turin

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Speaker 3: and it was called The Blood and the Shroud, The

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Speaker 3: Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson, and I remember

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Speaker 3: reading it and it's a history book and it's basically,

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Speaker 3: on thirteen fifty six this happened, and on thirteen fifty

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Speaker 3: seven this happened, and on thirteen fifty eight this happened.

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Speaker 3: And I got there it sounds terrible, No way that exactly,

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Speaker 3: no way that anybody It was also.

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Speaker 2: About thirteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting,

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Speaker 3: and I remember it very distinctly, it is somebody ought

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Speaker 3: to write there as a historical fiction. And that's exactly

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Speaker 3: what I did. And that's what the impetus for me was.

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Speaker 3: I took all of those facts, you know, as they

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Speaker 3: were laid out by Ian Wilson many others of course,

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Speaker 3: and I said, you know, so, how could we tell

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Speaker 3: a story about something that is this significant and tell

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Speaker 3: a story that other people would read and be able

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Speaker 3: to then consume it and read it and learn about

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Speaker 3: the shroud and go, wow, look at that. This is

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Speaker 3: very interesting? Is they? You know? And they can ask

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Speaker 3: the question themselves as to whether the shroud is authentic

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Speaker 3: or not. And but and that's that was really the

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Speaker 3: genesis of me writing that book. And I remember was

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Speaker 3: that weekend when I read that, I said, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to write the first chapter and I wrote the first chapter,

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Speaker 3: and then it was twenty years before I actually started

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Speaker 3: to really write it when I alway wanted to write it.

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Speaker 3: And then it was COVID and I remember sitting here

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Speaker 3: and I said, I need to finish that book, and

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Speaker 3: I picked up what I had written and I started writing.

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Speaker 3: And that's them where the book came from.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with me Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Guys, for those of you just joining us, I'm talking

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Speaker 2: to a friend and colleague and also a Amazon number

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Speaker 2: one bestseller of another book completely different topic has written

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Speaker 2: The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin.

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Speaker 2: Guy Powell is with me. And you know, guys, there

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Speaker 2: are some people in the world that you take everything

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Speaker 2: they say with a box of sault. As I like

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Speaker 2: to say, not a grain of salt, but a box

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Speaker 2: of salt. Guy Powell is someone you would seek out

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Speaker 2: for an opinion or advice or the true facts. And

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Speaker 2: hearing you speak about your book, I mean, I got

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Speaker 2: it this morning. Have you voiced it yet? Have you

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Speaker 2: got an audio yet? In the process of trying to

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Speaker 2: do that, I need it in an audio so when

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Speaker 2: I go jog, haha, or walk, I can listen to it,

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Speaker 2: but yes, I got it on Kendle this morning. So

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Speaker 2: it struck you after reading one kind of a historical

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Speaker 2: view of the shroud to write, you know, first of all,

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Speaker 2: what is a burial shroud? A lot of people are

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Speaker 2: not familiar with a burial shroud.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So a shroud is a burial cloth. So

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Speaker 3: it's a cloth that would be wrapped around somebody that

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Speaker 3: had just died, and then you would be certainly at

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Speaker 3: the time of Christ, then you would wrap the body

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Speaker 3: in the in this piece of cloth, and then you

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Speaker 3: would bury that person in the tomb. And there's a

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Speaker 3: couple of different pieces that might take place. The one

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Speaker 3: is the cloth, a single piece of cloth that wraps

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Speaker 3: from the back of the feet all the way up

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Speaker 3: to the back of the head, over the face, and

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Speaker 3: then down to the front of the feet, and that's

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Speaker 3: what the the the shroud of Turin is. And then

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Speaker 3: possibly and very probably, then there was another strip, a

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Speaker 3: strip of linen that is wrapped around the body to

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Speaker 3: hold that piece of cloth on the body, you know,

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Speaker 3: just to make sure that it just stays there and

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Speaker 3: stays together. And so there's there's a couple of different

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Speaker 3: met mentions of that in the in the Book and

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Speaker 3: John of course, these linens and the strips of linins,

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Speaker 3: and so that's where those two things come from. And

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Speaker 3: this is then believed to be the burial cloth of

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: In other words, this cloth, according to many believers, was

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Speaker 2: there in the tomb as silent witness to the resurrection.

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Speaker 3: Exactly it is, and that's thing where the title came from.

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Speaker 3: It is the only witness. So it was there during

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Speaker 3: that moment of resurrection. So that's then believed to be

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Speaker 3: what caused that image to be imprinted onto that cloth.

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Speaker 3: And then the book, of course, is the only witness.

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Speaker 3: It's a history. It's not the history. Nobody knows what

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Speaker 3: the history is. But it's a history, a plausible history

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Speaker 3: of the shroud of Turin as it progressed them from

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Speaker 3: that day in Gold and then in the tomb and

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Speaker 3: then all the way up to where it is today

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Speaker 3: in Turin, Italy.

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Speaker 2: So was it thrown away and recovered? Was it revered

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Speaker 2: as one of the most important relics in human existence?

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Speaker 2: Guy takes facts and hypotheses to write a history of

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Speaker 2: this cloth, this burial cloth of Christ, as it travels

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Speaker 2: from Golgotha, where Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, through the

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Speaker 2: Roman Empire, through Byzantium, through Europe, and how this cloth

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Speaker 2: protected for centuries lands in Turin, surviving fire, war, plague, floods,

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Speaker 2: to become to many the single most valuable Christian relic

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Speaker 2: or not. You know, it strikes me, guy, as we're talking,

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Speaker 2: how it is a miracle that, for instance, the Bible

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Speaker 2: or the Torah's our Old Testament even survived, but particularly

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Speaker 2: the New Testament, because after Christ's crucifixion, Christians were of

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Speaker 2: course persecuted, and it was more important to them to

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Speaker 2: keep the faith. They would leave their homes, go living

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Speaker 2: cave rather than denounce what they believe to be the truth.

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Speaker 2: And it strikes me now, guy, how blessed we are

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Speaker 2: to be able to even talk, be able to even

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Speaker 2: talk about the Shrid of Churin, or the Bible or

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Speaker 2: the Torah. How they survived over all the years and

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Speaker 2: were not destroyed. To me, that is the miracle in itself.

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Speaker 2: But you know, guy, there are countries all around the

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Speaker 2: world where Christians and others are persecuted, jailed, killed even

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Speaker 2: now because of their beliefs. And you and I can

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Speaker 2: just take to the airwaves and talk about is the

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Speaker 2: shrid of Churan real or is it a fake? It's

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Speaker 2: how blessed are we?

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Speaker 3: Yes? You are so right. When I think about those Christians,

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Speaker 3: the Apostles, and then the early converts and and then

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Speaker 3: the Romans. Uh, you know, destroying the Temple in early

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Speaker 3: the first century and then persecuting the Christians for another

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Speaker 3: couple of hundred years. How hard was it for them

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Speaker 3: to be a Christian? How hard was it? And uh?

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Speaker 3: And nowadays to your point, here we are talking about,

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Speaker 3: you know, Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking about this

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Speaker 3: miraculous potentially miraculous relictis out of turin. We are truly

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Speaker 3: truly blessed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, just thinking about what I said at the

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Speaker 2: beginning about seeking the teachings of Christ. Whenever I am

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Speaker 2: a doubt like Thomas, and I'd like to remind everyone

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Speaker 2: when Thomas doubted, Christ did not reprimand him or kick

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Speaker 2: him out. He wooed him, he loved him. Anyway, Whenever

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Speaker 2: I have feelings of doubt, I think about those early

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Speaker 2: Christians who would rather die than renounce their faith or

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Speaker 2: the disciples. Do you remember Peter would not even agree

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Speaker 2: to be crucified. He thought it was too similar to

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Speaker 2: the way Christ was killed, so he insisted he'd be

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Speaker 2: crucified upside down. They would rather die than renounce. I

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Speaker 2: hope and pray that you are correct that the Shroud

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Speaker 2: of Turin israel I cannot reject science. But I have faith.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait to finish. It just got started this morning,

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Speaker 2: Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin. And how

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Speaker 2: long did it take you to write the book? Guy?

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Speaker 3: Well, it was from start to finish. When I really

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Speaker 3: got into it, it was three years.

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Speaker 2: Three years, wow, guys. And where can everyone find it?

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Speaker 2: The only Witness a History of the Shroud of Turin.

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Speaker 2: Where can it be found?

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Speaker 3: Well, definitely on Amazon. So today is the launch the

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Speaker 3: first availability of the book. I'm kindle it'll be available

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Speaker 3: shortly in print form on Amazon. It's available, and it'll

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Speaker 3: be available through any bookstore, and certainly hope to have

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Speaker 3: it available in different Christian bookstores. And then lastly, if

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Speaker 3: you want to, you can also get it from my site,

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Speaker 3: Guy Powell dot com and there you can sign up

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Speaker 3: for the book, also purchase the book and learn even

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Speaker 3: more about the out of Turn This.

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Speaker 2: Is the labor of love and I really look forward

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Speaker 2: to reading it. Guy Powell, thank you for being with

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Speaker 2: us today.

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Speaker 3: Nancy, thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Bye. Friend,