1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: Welcome back to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: This was part two of a conversation between Payne Lindsay 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: and Carrie Rawson, the daughter of BTK aka Denis Raider. 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: So who is your dad? 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 3: Is he all these different things? 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: Is he whoever he's mirroring in the moment and then 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: he's something else at this point in time? Is he 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: all these things? Is he anybody? Or is he no one? 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 4: People would say Dennis Raider's ninety percent denistrator and ten 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 4: percent BTK. The detective says he thinks he's ninety percent 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 4: BTK and ten percent denistrator, and I want to push 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 4: back and say, no, he's ninety percent my. 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 5: Dad and just a little bit BTK. 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 4: I finally kind of come to this point where he's 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 4: both all the time. When I was growing up and 16 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 4: we would be out fishing, say the game warden's coming along, 17 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 4: you know, just to check make sure you're got your 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 4: permen and you're not over a limit, he would chain 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 4: like he always. My dad was really big on uniforms 20 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 4: and jobs with uniforms, like with the military ADT Compliance officer, 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: but he almost had a uniform to fish in, like 22 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 4: he would change his hat to walk the dog, or 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 4: change his shoes to go take out the garbage. 24 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 5: It was like, I. 25 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 4: Don't know how intentional he was, but he had a 26 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 4: tendency to take it to the max so that he 27 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 4: looked exactly like you would expect somebody to look. And 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 4: then the game warden comes along and he changes his 29 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 4: posture changes, he strains up, he changes his voice. He's 30 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 4: very like respectful and yes sir or no sir. He 31 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 4: talks cot but he doesn't quite top cut because it's 32 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 4: a warden, so he talks wharden. I'm telling you he's 33 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 4: mirroring so like if he was sitting here with you, 34 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 4: he would sit like you because he's trying to make 35 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 4: you feel more comfortable. I don't think he feels comfortable 36 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 4: anywhere he is, so he's trying to blend in. Is 37 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 4: he Is it because he's not feeling comfortable or is 38 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 4: it because he wants everyone to just accepting face value. 39 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 4: This guy is fishing. This guy's being very respectful. You know, 40 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 4: I'm not aware that he has bondage stuff in his 41 00:01:58,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 4: car that he's going. 42 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 5: To do stuff with after the kids go to bed. 43 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 4: In the tent, Like he it's very careful, but you 44 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 4: see it, Like the arrest video, there's a clip of 45 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 4: him where they're pushing him and he's like they're trying 46 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 4: to get him to say it's BTK. He changes, like 47 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 4: I know him well enough, you can, like the voice changes, 48 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 4: just like the way he looks, like people have said, 49 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: like his eyes change. 50 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 3: What in the world is that? 51 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 4: It's those layers in those masks of like removing that 52 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 4: every everyday guy Midwest mister Dennis Rader mask and letting 53 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 4: you see BTK. I mean, the only person that survived 54 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 4: BTK is Kevin Bright and so really like here, my 55 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 4: dad had this secret for thirty one years. 56 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 5: No one knew who he was. 57 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 4: The cops are pushing him for hours on that Friday 58 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 4: he was arrested. They know, I mean, they know it's him, 59 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: and he finally just lets it go and lets him know. 60 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 4: They're like say it. 61 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 5: You know. 62 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 4: They had to push him so hard. They were like 63 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: telling him, we're going to tear up your house, like, 64 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 4: don't do this to Paula, don't do it to the kids. 65 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 4: They're like, we know you have souvenirs somewhere. You've got 66 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: to have at least Wagerly's driver's license, Like, where is 67 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 4: that Stefan was under the floorboards in our hallway? He 68 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 4: had a false bottom built underneath a storage drawer in 69 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 4: our hallway. 70 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: Do you think he feels bad of how he traumatized 71 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: your family? 72 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 5: So they literally did use us to wedge. 73 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: That's how you know that dad did care about us 74 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 4: and that we mattered to him, because that was what 75 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 4: they used to wedge him. And if he didn't care 76 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 4: about us, he wouldn't have cared about that house being 77 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 4: torn up. And he did care because he knew what 78 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 4: it would have done to my mom. But you can 79 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 4: see where he changes. There's video of him at the trial. 80 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 4: Now he's very uncomfortable. He's in his church suit. My 81 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 4: uncle's cared enough. They went and got his suits out 82 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: of our house and shoes so that he wouldn't just 83 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 4: be in prison gear. He's in court. He's uncomfortable because 84 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 4: he you know, he's being seen and being known. You know, 85 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 4: here's this big narcissist that wants to be known and 86 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 4: now people know he doesn't. 87 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 5: He's not comfortable with it. 88 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: Well, he's not in power anymore. 89 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 4: No, he's not completely out of power. So he's trying 90 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 4: to maintain power by being in like that power suit. 91 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 4: And he's standing there in court and he knows he's 92 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 4: going to plead guilty, and he's expecting the judge to 93 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 4: just have him say I'm guilty. Maybe one time. We're 94 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 4: on the ten counts. Now, all those family are there, 95 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 4: all the detectives are there. He hates the detectives. 96 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: They know what he is, and just trying to understand 97 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: how somebody could do these things. This is kind of 98 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: a personal question. If you're uncomfortable, it's fine, But do 99 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: you know much about the sex life between your mother 100 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: and father. 101 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 4: My dad's talked about like his sex life with my mom. 102 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 4: I mean, Douglass goes over at Ramslin's book and now 103 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 4: when he was arrested, one of the very first concerns was, 104 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 4: how do we been sexually abused? 105 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 5: You know? 106 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 4: And I know the pastor asked us ride away to 107 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 4: check to make sure we weren't in some like. 108 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 5: Horrific abuse situation that we were covering up. Yep, what 109 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 5: I mean. 110 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 4: My dad has even said it was just like a 111 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 4: normal sexual relationship, Like he says in Ramslan's book, he 112 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 4: would never hurt my mom or somebody like her, that 113 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 4: he loved her and that he could have a normal, giving, 114 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 4: normal relationship with somebody like my mom. 115 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: But these sort of bondage fantasies and stuff like that, 116 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: fetishes that never made its way into the bedroom. 117 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 5: As far as I know. 118 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 4: No, Now there's some debate. My dad claims in Ramslin's 119 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 4: book that my mom caught him twice playing his bondage 120 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 4: stuff in the house. He didn't think she was going 121 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 4: to come home, and she came home because he said 122 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 4: he liked the mayor, the full mayor in our bathroom 123 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 4: and in our hallway. Now, my dad is saying this 124 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 4: on record at least a Ramsland, probably before. Okay, so 125 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 4: it's so well known that it's even recreated in mind Hunter. 126 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 4: Now I haven't seen the scene. So I'm finding out 127 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 4: in sixteen that's my mom saw him twice and almost 128 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: divorced him, or threaten a divorce. It's what my dad claims. 129 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 4: So I'm finding out in sixteen. So I call my 130 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 4: mom and she just says. 131 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no, that never happened. 132 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: Do you believe that? 133 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 5: I mean, my mom's the truth teller. 134 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 4: But like dad says that there was a book my 135 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 4: mom got like self help book trying to figure out 136 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 4: what was wrong with my dad and help him. And 137 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 4: he says that other people back that up too, that 138 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 4: like that she had talked to some friends or something 139 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 4: about what about trying to figure out why does this 140 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 4: guy have this weird feedationian like why is he in 141 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 4: women's clothing? 142 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 5: And how can I help him? I know the book? 143 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 5: It was like on the. 144 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: Top of my bookshelf when I was a kid, and 145 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 4: I got in trouble for finding it. 146 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 3: What was it? 147 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 4: Just something I would have to find? The title is 148 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 4: in Ramslin's book. I know that that book exists, So 149 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 4: does the rest of the story exist? 150 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 5: Who knows? 151 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 4: And my dad's a pathological liar, so like what is true? 152 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: But he's so honest about other things? Is anybody going 153 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 4: to push my mom to find out? 154 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 5: It doesn't really matter? 155 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 4: I mean, are you still going to jump from this 156 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 4: man in women's clothing to BTK? And the thing is, 157 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 4: in hindsight, it's really easy to sit over here and say, well, 158 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 4: he had all these tendencies, or he spelled this way, 159 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 4: or but like a lot of the stuff the police knew, 160 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 4: they never released until after he was arrested. You know, 161 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 4: there was this puzzle he sent this weird word search 162 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 4: puzzle thing in one of his communications in two thousand 163 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 4: and four. Far as I know, that was not released 164 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: publicly until after he was arrested. And I after he 165 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 4: was arrested, I went and I printed it off, and 166 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: I swear I found my address in it and some initials. Now, 167 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 4: am I finding things in there that he didn't even 168 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 4: intend to be in there? In hindsight, possibly as far 169 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 4: as I know, that was not released or I had 170 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: never seen it. 171 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 5: I don't think it was released before after murdered Nancy Fox. 172 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 5: He used to pay phone. 173 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 4: He was actually in his ADT truck park there, and 174 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: there's a very quick audio recording of him calling in 175 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 4: and he called in a homicide, which is kind of 176 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 4: a weird word for a non cop to use, but 177 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: he's trying to talk cop, right because he's reporting it. 178 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 5: Now. 179 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 4: That recording was played over and over. Far as I know, 180 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 4: I did not hear it until the night of his arrest. 181 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 4: I was trying to alibi him. I went digging into crimes. 182 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 4: I found crimes that weren't even his. Everything got me 183 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 4: really messed up, and I found the recording. I listened 184 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 4: to it and I said, that's Dad. But I wasn't 185 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 4: home and oh for So there's like this lingering question 186 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 4: if I had been home and oh four and like 187 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 4: because I was into like detective stuff and growing up 188 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 4: and all of that with that, like would I have 189 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 4: been trying to solve this crime at home? There's that 190 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 4: question of like what would I have known? And then 191 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 4: what would have happened in my home if we had 192 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 4: like found out, would. 193 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 5: We be alive? I can't answer that. 194 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: What's this with these frog figurines? 195 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 4: So after my dad played guilty in June of five, 196 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 4: somehow Larry Hadiberg, who was a local witch Ta k 197 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 4: TV journalist, was able to call him in the president interviewing. Now, 198 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 4: this was very rare. There hasn't been much access to 199 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 4: my dad. Somehow Larry was able to make this phone 200 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 4: call to my dad. He's telling Larry that there was 201 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 4: a demon frog in his brain named Bader Batteer that 202 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 4: was making him commit these murders. 203 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 3: How do you feel about that? 204 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 4: You know, five, I knew it was bullshit. Now it's 205 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen. I'm finally home in Wichita. I'm sitting down 206 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 4: with Larry for the first time in my life, and 207 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: Susan Peters. They're working for PBS KPTS. They had covered 208 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 4: all the btks, they had covered the trial. They were 209 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 4: great people to work with. And Larry's bringing up that 210 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: he interviewed my dad and he brought up the frock. 211 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 4: So I'm sitting there on camera and I said, the 212 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 4: frog is bullshit, Larry. You know, maybe I said crab 213 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: because I'm trying not to cuss on camera. And then, 214 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 4: you know, we go on with the interview. My dad 215 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: has a TV. He saw that interview, he saw my 216 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 4: other interviews. He heard me on the radio, so he 217 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 4: hears me calling him out on the frog. He's hearing 218 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: that in February of nineteen and a few weeks later 219 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 4: in the mail, I get an eight x ten photo 220 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 4: I can show you of a demon frog and at 221 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 4: the bottom he writes. 222 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: Batar, this is from your dad to you. 223 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, because one he knows the frog's BS. He knows 224 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 4: that I know the frog's BS. So one, he's kind 225 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 4: of proud of me for knowing that it's BS. And 226 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 4: two he's just reminding me to remember him. 227 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: Why is he making all this stuff up? 228 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 5: Because he likes the yank people's chains this way, he's 229 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 5: not helpful. 230 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 4: Like literally Douglas talks about they went to Son of 231 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: Sam to find out about BTK, and Son of Sam 232 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 4: was not bored. He wasn't interested, and then said, look, 233 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 4: btk's mentioning you. And they got Son of Sam to 234 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 4: talk for hours, right, and to try to help them 235 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: develop these profiles. My dad is not helpful. They don't 236 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 4: go to my dad as far as I know, because 237 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 4: he likes to yank everybody's chains. Like I've talked to 238 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 4: a detective and he said, after Ramslm's book came out, 239 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: they had to go clear a few more cases that 240 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 4: were close enough to my dad and brought up in 241 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 4: the book unsolved cases, and he's like, we had to 242 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 4: go out there and talk to your dad. Of course, 243 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 4: it makes my dad feel empowered and remembered and important. 244 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 4: And they hate it, you know, they don't want Nobody 245 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 4: wants to deal with my dad. He's such a jerk, 246 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: Like he's not helpful. I mean that's why I like 247 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 4: I had start cutting him out of my life. It 248 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 4: was like I was getting stronger, like aus I got 249 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 4: to know who he was and this other side, and 250 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 4: I started speaking up, and I was becoming stronger as 251 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 4: a person and surviving this, not just surviving, but starting 252 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: to really start getting my life back. I was getting 253 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: strong enough to push back against him and call out 254 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 4: his bullshit. And so I'm on a podcast, you know, 255 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 4: we're talking about serious things, but also that dark humor 256 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: and just releasing and like, damn, look what I've survived. 257 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 4: So I'm prob calling him names than just being flipping 258 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 4: being myself. When one of his minions, one of his 259 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 4: fan clubs, saw it, they called my father at the prison. 260 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 4: They said, she's she's in Orlando. Now she's moved. I 261 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 4: hadn't holding my head moved, and she's over here saying 262 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: these things about you. And so he literally is trying. 263 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 4: My dad's trying to get a hold of me. Now 264 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 4: is he trying to get a hold of me because 265 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: he's worried about me? Or is it because he's a 266 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 4: narcissistic stalker. So he has these minions then reach out 267 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 4: to me through email and social media, like a handful 268 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 4: over the last two or three years they'll write me 269 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 4: and say, well, we talked to your dad. 270 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 5: He's a really nice guy. 271 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 4: We don't know what your deal is, Like they literally 272 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 4: just invade like my Instagram. 273 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 3: That is ridiculous. 274 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 4: It's absolutely ridiculous because he uses them. Their serial killer 275 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 4: like minions, like fan club women that get attached to 276 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 4: my dad. He's using them. He's very well known for 277 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: like the murder black market now with memorabilia. I mean 278 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 4: it's like a back alley thing. These serial killers and 279 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 4: well known criminals they like do art or they'll sell 280 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 4: like like there's like on Instagram there's like these murder 281 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: museums starves and you can pay hundreds of dollars for 282 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 4: these drawings from these guys. So there's a Son of 283 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 4: Sam law that people like my father cannot profit off 284 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 4: of his murders, right, and it's there to protect the 285 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: victims and protect families like mine. But then like you 286 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: talk to these art dealers and stuff and they're like, well, 287 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 4: we're just trying to make a living. I'm like, you're 288 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 4: literally selling like a sheet of paper that's got somebody's 289 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 4: pubes on it. 290 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 5: Like why is this a thing? 291 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: So my father like in fifteen was like, well, if 292 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 4: you want to make some money, he's like, you can 293 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: help me with this. 294 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 5: So like literally he skirted the son of Sam laws 295 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:49,239 Speaker 5: for six years. 296 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 2: Is he actually skirting the law? Is he just breaking 297 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: the law? Sounds like he's just breaking the law. 298 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 4: I mean, he's legit breaking the law, but nobody's really 299 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 4: stopped it. He sent sweatpants in the last few years 300 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 4: that were stamped raider for the prison. He sent gold fillings. 301 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 4: Now why does he even have his gold fillings? Or 302 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 4: is he the one actually sending him? Like is there 303 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: a black market at the prison? So, I mean it's 304 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 4: been in the news, you know, I've talked about it, 305 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 4: The Eagles looked into it. This has been getting worse 306 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 4: and worse, so I started talking to some detectives about it, 307 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 4: and I started cutting on. My last letter to my 308 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 4: dad was in the fall of seventeen because my dad 309 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: was trying to insert himself into my media and trying 310 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 4: to insert myself. He wanted to do like an art 311 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 4: book with me, and he wanted to be part of 312 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 4: my book, and I couldn't trust him anymore. I couldn't 313 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 4: trust anything I wrote him because journalists were contacting him 314 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: or contacting me to try to get to him. So 315 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 4: I didn't mean for that to be my last letter. 316 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: It just was. 317 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 5: Now it's like Spring of twenty. I just got out 318 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 5: of the hospital. 319 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 4: I had COVID pneumonia in March of twenty. It's like 320 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 4: April of twenty twenty. I'm like in bed rest recovering 321 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: from COVID. Of course he doesn't know this, and I'm 322 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 4: finding out on Instagram. Contacted me that somebody sent my 323 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 4: dad the front page of my book. Now, my dad's 324 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 4: not allowed my book, so if somebody tried to send 325 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 4: my book, the mail room at the prison would stop it. 326 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 4: But somebody tore out the front page of my book 327 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 4: that I had autographed, and there aren't that many out there, 328 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 4: and he had done a BTK autograph. He's not legally 329 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 4: allowed to be doing that. So he's known for this 330 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 4: BTK autograph that he sent to the media in the seventies. 331 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: They used it to authenticate his work in the two 332 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: thousand and four, he's well known for this autograph. 333 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: Does that make you angry? 334 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: Oh? 335 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 4: I was so just torn up and mad and just disappointed, 336 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 4: just disappointed in the man I knew and my father 337 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 4: that we had done all this work. 338 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 5: We were communicating. 339 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 4: It was just Dad and me again, and then to 340 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: find out he's autographing my book with his upside down 341 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 4: b that are like boobs with a T and they're 342 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: like a penis on my book, so like a contacted detective. 343 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 4: And I was like, I'm done now. I didn't sign anything, 344 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 4: I didn't do any official but he took care of it. 345 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: He's had a long time sitting in prison to do 346 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: some introspection, I would imagine. But doing things like signing 347 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: pictures of girl's dead bodies doesn't give me the impression 348 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: that he cares more about why or how he did this, 349 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: just that he did it at all. 350 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 351 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: I mean that's a sign of no remorse and horrible 352 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 4: behavior on as part. If he ever wanted any sort 353 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 4: of even letter relationship with me, Like, that's not showing 354 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 4: any sort of growth, any sort of change, any sort 355 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 4: of I'm sorry, that's just him being a dickhead. 356 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 5: That's being him being BTK. 357 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: I almost feel like once he became outed as the 358 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: BTK killer, it almost took over or something. Once the 359 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: secret was exposed. Maybe since he no longer had to 360 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: suppress it, his entire being is more overcome by it. 361 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: It at least appears that way based on the way 362 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: he's communicating about it. 363 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, but he's. 364 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 4: Still protective, Like he won't talk crime with me. He 365 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 4: won't talk BTK, doesn't like the acronym with. 366 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: Me, doesn't want to it seems like he's ashamed of 367 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: it around you. 368 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 4: Well, he's protective of me, right, But then he wants 369 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 4: me to remember him, like like on my birthday or 370 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 4: mother's days thinking about me or is he wanted me 371 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: to remember him. 372 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 5: So he's making me a carter. He's sending me a 373 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 5: creepy photo. 374 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 4: I'm not a photo but a drawing of like these 375 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 4: these sea creatures with these gaping teeth. He calls himself 376 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 4: the Kansas Pisces. His zodiac is Pisces, and he got 377 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 4: into all these like zodiac stuff now astrology, and he 378 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 4: calls himself the Kansas Pisces, and he calls it like 379 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 4: the canvas with the c canvas. 380 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 5: Cave, his BTK cave. 381 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 4: So like after Hamaselon's book came out, she let him 382 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 4: make book plates. So again, I literally have a photo 383 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 4: of it. He drew a bondage rack like it's literally 384 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 4: an upside down bondy track because he said an oh 385 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 4: for his last murder, he thought about hanging her upside down. 386 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 4: So he draws this Bondwe track in black and white. 387 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 4: Somebody photo copies several of these for him. Who is 388 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 4: this person? 389 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 5: I don't know. 390 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 4: He's coloring them, he's numbering them and autographing them, and 391 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 4: they're going out to people that bought Ramslun's book. So like, 392 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 4: finally somebody came to me from the media and said, 393 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 4: can you vouch him vet this for your dad? Because 394 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 4: sometimes people come with to me with something and say, 395 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: is this your dad's? And usually if I know, I know, 396 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 4: they just want that like someone that knows knows. 397 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: But instead of spending that same amount of time and 398 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: effort and energy into making amends with you guys, he's 399 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 2: relishing in all the evil things that he did to 400 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: a degree, Duode. 401 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 4: Didn't notice it was a bondie track, Like that's that's 402 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 4: insane to me, did the criminologist? 403 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: Somebody's letting stuff slip through here? 404 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 5: I mean, right, And so I've been progressing. I've been 405 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 5: resting on that. 406 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 4: Why it's like the girl that has no criminology training 407 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 4: finding the bondage track, Like, it's not really awesome that 408 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 4: I know my dad in that way. 409 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: Now, did a part of you want to go back 410 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 2: to just the good times you have with your dad? 411 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 5: Absolutely? 412 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: Is that what you were trying to do by communicating 413 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: with him? 414 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 4: I mean early on after his arrest, I started writing 415 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: him within like the first week. We knew my dad 416 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 4: was guilty early on, and so we basically started a 417 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: writing campaign letting him know, like that we knew he 418 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: was guilty. Literally, like there's letters that I've shared where 419 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 4: I'm saying, like, you know you're guilty, Please take this 420 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 4: guilty plea for like the community, the victim's famili's, our family, 421 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 4: stop putting us through all this hell, you know, man 422 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 4: up and take the plea. So, from March of five 423 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 4: until when he pled in June of five, we were 424 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 4: all on this writing campaign, my brother, my mom, me, 425 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 4: you know, old friends, people in church, lots of family. 426 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 4: And then after he played guilty, my mom never wrote 427 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 4: him again. 428 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: Why she was done? Did a part of you feel 429 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 2: like you wanted to make it better? 430 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 3: Somehow? 431 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: I wanted to help him That back and forth it's 432 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: got to be just so draining and frustrating. 433 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, you just want to die. 434 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 2: It's almost like you can't let go of that feeling 435 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: that you are my Dad. 436 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 3: I do love you, I do want you to be okay. 437 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: I want to understand how you got this way, But 438 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: at the same time, I'm so mad. And so what 439 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: is the two major feelings you have? Like going back 440 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: and forth between. 441 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 4: You just have to find that balance and try not 442 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 4: to stait here too long. But you have to find 443 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 4: that balance. And so day to day, you know, I 444 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 4: lived my life and I'm a mom, I'm a writer, 445 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 4: an advocate. I try to find something good. I had 446 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 4: to get to a point of like coming to terms 447 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: with what dad was, coming to terms with who I 448 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 4: am in context with my dad, and then after therapy 449 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen, figuring out what the hell was going 450 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 4: to do this and then seeing that it was doing 451 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 4: some good me talking and knowing that there was some 452 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 4: good that could come out of this, and then I 453 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 4: could almost I can't reset what my dad did. 454 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 5: I can't give people their lives back. 455 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 2: When you've told people who you are and who your 456 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: father is, have you seen them change the way they 457 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: act towards you, or just even their facial expressions? 458 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean. 459 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 4: Usually get that like oh my god, face, like what 460 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 4: am I going to do with this now? I mean 461 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 4: I literally was just on an interview with BBC Radio 462 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 4: and she didn't know My interviewer didn't know my background story, 463 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 4: and so she's just sitting there saying like like almost, 464 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 4: oh my god's why you're on the interview. You know 465 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 4: now you're not in person with that, but you're kind 466 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 4: of like you came to interview me, so you should 467 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 4: be able to deal. There's just like this, you have 468 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 4: to decide who to tell and when. So literally, like 469 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 4: as I'm traveling for work, I'm traveling to discuss my father, 470 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 4: discuss my journey, advocate for people like me to heal 471 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 4: to advanced knowledge. Right, I should be proud of how 472 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 4: far I've come. I should be proud of who I am. 473 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 4: I should be proud that I have this book. But 474 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 4: do I really want to tell? Like you're sitting next 475 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 4: to sing and airplane, they're like, what do you do 476 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 4: for work? Do you tell them that you're writing? So like, literally, 477 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 4: I met the Salan last week, You're chatting what do 478 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 4: you do for work? 479 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 5: I'm a writer? What if you write do you answer that? 480 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: What would you answer be? 481 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 4: It just really depends on the situation, Like if I 482 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 4: can like if I can get away with not saying, 483 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 4: you know, I wrote a book called A Serial Killer's Daughter. 484 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 4: I try not to like literally, the lady that did 485 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 4: my names, we chatted for two hours about everything else, 486 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 4: and then she went in to connect with me on 487 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: Instagram and I said, just google me. You know, that's 488 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 4: like my go to answer sometimes with people still is 489 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 4: just google me and you'll find me in thirty seconds, 490 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 4: because it's easier than try and explain who I am 491 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 4: and who my dad is and what I do. 492 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: Is it strange at all that this is your work? Now? 493 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 4: It's not the life I would have chose at all, 494 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: you know, a lot of coming back to life and 495 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 4: finding myself and what's trying to figure out what am 496 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 4: I going to do with this? Like this isn't obviously 497 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 4: I didn't choose this life. I didn't choose my father 498 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 4: to be this. I would do anything for him not 499 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 4: to be b TK. I would do anything to just 500 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 4: have my dad, like to wipe everything out he did 501 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 4: and just have my dad and just be normal and 502 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 4: nobody knew. 503 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 5: Who I was. This is reality. 504 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 4: A lot of my trauma therapy, a lot of dealing 505 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 4: with things, was coming to terms with it, Like I 506 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 4: didn't even know I was a writer. I mean, I 507 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 4: had done like ap English in high school. I went 508 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 4: to the same high school as my parents, graduated in 509 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: ninety six. Then I was pre vet, so I was 510 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 4: the science track. I ended up with a life science 511 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 4: degree elementary education degree. I had no idea I was 512 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 4: a writer, and then these people came along and they said, 513 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 4: we think you naturally have some gift for writing, and 514 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 4: then you can hone it. Writing ended up being the 515 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 4: thing that could reach those broken and shattered places in 516 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 4: me that nothing else could, that therapy couldn't. So in 517 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, unfortunately, because I was trying to get everything 518 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: so right and accurate for that interview, I basically unleashed 519 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 4: all the stuff I had not dealt with with my dad, 520 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 4: like crime scene photos, details of these people, these victims, 521 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 4: faces of my father, and I had like unleashed all 522 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 4: of it, and I was falling apart with my night 523 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 4: terrors were horrible. I couldn't sleep. I was getting the 524 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 4: images of these dead women in my head. 525 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: What would you see? 526 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 5: Literally like I. 527 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 4: Had looked at the crime scene photos and now like 528 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 4: it was like seared like trauma in my brain of 529 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 4: like the woman strangled like. 530 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 5: Possibly with like the ties still harder. 531 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 4: Blood Like I literally had like Nancy Fox's face stuck 532 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 4: in my head. And so I had to go back 533 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 4: to trauma therapy. I had seen the trauma therapist in 534 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 4: O seven, and I went back in fifteen, literally almost 535 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 4: like crawling into her office. And when I went in 536 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 4: and O seven, I barely could say BTK. 537 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 5: I was like. 538 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 4: Whispering BTK to her. Why I was fearful of my 539 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 4: dad for two years? I was scared to death of 540 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 4: him realistically. I mean, I know he's in solitary. I 541 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 4: know he's in maximum security. I know he's an old man, 542 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: even when he was sixty. I know he wasn't ever 543 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 4: going to hurt me. But you've got to realize, like 544 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 4: when you've been in a situation with somebody in like 545 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 4: my dad and your survivor of like verbal and emotional abuse, 546 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 4: you can go back and. 547 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 5: Be that four year old with a scary dad. 548 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 4: But now like you find out so much more so 549 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 4: you're like, I mean literally, like I'm showing you the 550 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 4: cover of my book, like that photo sets me off. 551 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 3: How do you feel when you see that, Well. 552 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 5: It's his arrest photo. 553 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 4: So he's really mad and sullen because he's been interviewed 554 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 4: for like thirty hours and he's in his prison orange 555 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 4: and he's pissed as hell because he's been caught and 556 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 4: he has at Hanne's sleep And they interviewed him for 557 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 4: thirty hours after he was arrested, and then they told 558 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 4: him they were done with him. 559 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 5: They had everything they needed. He confessed and they took 560 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 5: a photo of me. 561 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: When you see that picture, do you see your dad? 562 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 5: No, this is my dad. That's my college graduation. 563 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: And how do you feel when you see that picture? 564 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 5: Just happy, like happy memory. 565 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 4: I mean it hurts now, it hurts to seem like that, 566 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 4: but I mean literally, I'm putting decorating the Christmas tree 567 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 4: with him. I'm putting an angel on the tree. When 568 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 4: I was lily, he has me lifted up. It was 569 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 4: like we took turns every year. I got two one 570 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 4: year and my brother in the next. 571 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: Both pictures of your dad, but you feel differently about. 572 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: Both of them. 573 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 4: Realistically, this is my dad. But literally I was just 574 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 4: in trauma therapy of like a month ago in Orlando 575 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 4: now where I live, and she's reading my book to 576 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 4: help me, and she set me off with this photo 577 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 4: and we ended up talking for an hour. We ran 578 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 4: down like BTK poles because literally, and then I realized 579 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 4: that photo had triggered me. So now watch what am 580 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 4: I gonna do. I'm gonna flip it. This is my 581 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 4: book and I don't like it's sitting there on my 582 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 4: bookshelf with dad. I didn't have any choice. They put 583 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 4: him on the cover. So I'm literally flipping it right 584 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 4: now so. 585 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 5: I don't have to look at it. 586 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 4: But it's better than being torn up inside and questioning 587 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 4: everything and questioning yourself and questioning reality and dying. So 588 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 4: it's either dying inside or this. 589 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 5: So it's this, And what is this helping? Hopefully? 590 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 4: I mean it's hard to sit here and talk and 591 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 4: you're probably like, why is she doing this to herself? 592 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 4: I mean it helps me to talk about it gets 593 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 4: some of that out. Like I'm literally, you know, if 594 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 4: I go back into trauma therapy, I'm and be like, 595 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 4: well I cried at this moment and she's like, Okay, 596 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 4: well there's something in. 597 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 5: There we got to dig at. 598 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 6: But I've been told by so many people I'm helping. 599 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 6: I want to help. I've always wanted to help I 600 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 6: wanted to help my dad, right, I'm like the little 601 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 6: girl wanting to help my dad not be angry, like 602 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 6: I'm the opposite of him. 603 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's what you're doing now. 604 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 4: So I it helps me and helps other people. 605 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 2: You said earlier that you think that your dad was 606 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: ninety percent Dennis Raider ten percent BTK. Do you feel 607 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 2: like once the news broke and there became fan clubs 608 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: and different weird stuff like that, that it maybe further 609 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 2: empowered the BTK in Dennis Raider to where he almost 610 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: became more proud of it. 611 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 5: Yeah. 612 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 4: I mean when I talked to detectives, they're like, the 613 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 4: worst thing you can do to somebody like my dad 614 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 4: is not talk about it. 615 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 5: Not talk to him, not give. 616 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 4: Him any power, not ask him anything, not come to 617 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 4: him with anything, but just completely not talk about him 618 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 4: like he doesn't exist. That's the worst thing you can 619 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 4: do to my father, and probably the best thing you 620 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 4: can do. And so, like when we're talking about the 621 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 4: word monster or something, these guys become bigger than life 622 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 4: because of all the lore and the legend around him 623 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 4: and the massive amount of impact they've had in the 624 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: decades of people that have studied them and made careers 625 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 4: around them, and you know, trying to solve these things 626 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 4: and figure out what's wrong with these guys and how 627 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 4: can we stop and quicker like they become these these big, huge, 628 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 4: bigger than life things. But are we still applying that 629 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 4: same sort of rigid psychopathy profile to the guys we're 630 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 4: trying to catch now or are we looking for the 631 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 4: d'angelos and the raiders? 632 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 5: Are we I don't know, maybe somebody else can answer that. 633 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 5: Do they still exist? Are they still active? 634 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 4: And are we looking for the right or are we 635 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 4: looking for that narrow list of what a psychopath is? 636 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Carrie Rawson for reaching out and being 637 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: such a pivotal part of this show. You can find 638 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: her books, including A Serial Killer's Daughter and Breaking Free 639 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: at Barnes and Noble or wherever you get your books. 640 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: And remember to listen to the main series of Monster 641 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: BTK and even more bonus content and early and completely 642 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: ad free on iHeart Truecrime Plus. Thanks for listening.