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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Philip Center with us. He's a teacher, Orthodox Christian theologist.

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Speaker 2: Philip has published one hundred and three peered reviewed research

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Speaker 2: articles to date, with research specializing in paleontology with an

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Speaker 2: emphasis on dinosaurs, zoology with an emphasis on reptiles, and

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Speaker 2: an investigation of the Young Earth. Philip, I'm looking forward

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Speaker 2: to this, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Tell me about the book?

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Speaker 3: Oh well, the title sums it up pretty well, the

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Speaker 3: real story of dinosaurs and dragons, because the fake story

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Speaker 3: is out there, promoted by answers in Genesis and other

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Speaker 3: anti evolution organizations, and the fake story has been given

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Speaker 3: a lot of credence in certain circles. And I would

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Speaker 3: like to get of you the real story.

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Speaker 4: We'll get to that.

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Speaker 2: When you were a little boy, did you have these

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Speaker 2: rubber little dinosaurs.

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Speaker 3: The plastic but yes, yes, I got a set of

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Speaker 3: those for the fifth birthday and the love of them

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Speaker 3: just never stopped.

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Speaker 4: Same with me.

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Speaker 2: I love the baranasaurces, the Tyrannosaurus rexes. They were just fantastic,

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Speaker 2: weren't they?

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Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, kids loved monsters and these are real ones.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever been to the Smithsonian many times?

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Speaker 3: In fact, I was there just recently conducting some research.

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Speaker 4: They've got some great structures there, don't they.

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Speaker 3: That they do, and so many really good displays, and

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Speaker 3: you'd be amazed how much of the good stuff is

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Speaker 3: off display.

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Speaker 4: What led you to write the book on dinosaurs and Dragons?

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Speaker 3: Well, one of my comparative anatomy students made a statement

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Speaker 3: in class that I just floored me. We were mentioning evolution,

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Speaker 3: and he came out with, I think evolution as a hoax.

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Speaker 3: And I almost didn't know how to respond to this

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Speaker 3: because this was a senior in college, and I thought,

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Speaker 3: how is it that a biology major makes it through

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Speaker 3: four years of college without knowing the evidence of evolution

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Speaker 3: to such a degree that it's obviously correct. And so

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Speaker 3: I began to look at the various arguments that the

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Speaker 3: anti evolution camp has come up with so that I

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Speaker 3: know how to answer things in class if stuff came up. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: the book spun out of that because the dinosaur parts

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Speaker 3: of what answers in Genesis and so forth are promoting

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Speaker 3: are just so fun to devour, incorrect though they may

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Speaker 3: be that they just make for a fun read.

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Speaker 2: Intriguing to be sure, did the dinosaurs really get wiped

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Speaker 2: out by that asteroid?

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Speaker 3: Possibly? The juries still out on certain aspects of that,

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Speaker 3: but it appears that they were mostly wiped out by

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Speaker 3: other things by the time the asteroid hit, and it's

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Speaker 3: quite possible that it just dealt a death blow to

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Speaker 3: the few that were still there.

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Speaker 4: Exciting to be sure.

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Speaker 2: And you're still a professor of zoology, aren't you at

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Speaker 2: the Facial University State.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct, a Fatbelle State University and Fayetteville, North Carolina.

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Speaker 4: Good for you. How long you've been doing.

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Speaker 3: That since two thousand and seven?

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Speaker 4: What got you there?

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Speaker 3: A job opening? I think, I guess that's the short answer.

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Speaker 3: I was working as a professor in the biology department

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Speaker 3: at Lamar State College, Orange in southeastern Texas for four years.

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Speaker 3: But it's a great place to work. I loved it,

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Speaker 3: loved my colleagues, and there was an opening for a

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Speaker 3: zoology professor and that's that was right up my alley.

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Speaker 3: So I figured higher salary, a greater variety of course

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Speaker 3: work that I could teach, which makes it more fun.

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Speaker 3: And off we went. And also, North Carolina is where

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Speaker 3: most of the extended family live or is close to.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've got relatives in North and South Carolina

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Speaker 3: and Virginia, and that's a whole lot closer to them

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Speaker 3: than Texas.

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Speaker 2: Was always thought dragons were myth. I'll chime with the

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Speaker 2: Kimodo dragon.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you're partly right about dragons being myth, and

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Speaker 3: yet yet they're not a very cool thing. Is The

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Speaker 3: word dragon comes from the Latin draco and Greek racon,

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Speaker 3: and these words to the ancients meant serpent and serpents

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Speaker 3: are real, snakes are real. The ancients had kind of

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Speaker 3: like we do two different words. What we say snake

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Speaker 3: informally and serpent formally for if we're trying to be

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Speaker 3: poetic or or other formal situations. Likewise, the ancient Greeks

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Speaker 3: said opis for informal, an informal way to say snake,

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Speaker 3: and then racon was the formal way. That's what you

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Speaker 3: see in the poetry and in the myths. And the

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Speaker 3: Romans did this the same thing. They they said anguish

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Speaker 3: or serpents for as we would say snake, and then

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Speaker 3: draco as we would say serpent, and there were all

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Speaker 3: these stories and myths uh legends of serpents interacting with

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Speaker 3: people and with nature, and in the in the myths,

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Speaker 3: of course, they would use the formal term racon or draco.

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Speaker 3: And we see from the artwork that these animals in

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Speaker 3: the stories were in fact meant as snakes, because the

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Speaker 3: ancient Greeks and Romans they painted them as snakes, they

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Speaker 3: sculpted them as snakes. And it's not till the Middle

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Speaker 3: Ages that we see the dragon evolve into this monstrous

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Speaker 3: sort of thing with the feet and wings and did

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Speaker 3: the fire breathing and all that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where did that come from?

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Speaker 4: The wings? From the fire breathing.

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Speaker 3: M The fire breathing was the first thing that was

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Speaker 3: the first change to be made. And by the third

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Speaker 3: century of the Christian era, Christian giographers, that is to

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Speaker 3: say that the people who writing the stories of the

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Speaker 3: saints were starting to add fantastic elements and we're kind

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Speaker 3: of modeling the way they did the stories around the

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Speaker 3: classical that is to say, the Greek and Roman way

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Speaker 3: of writing writing myths and legends. And one of the

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Speaker 3: things they used to add was a Saints encounter with

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Speaker 3: some serpent, often a talking serpent, and kind of using

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Speaker 3: a similar formula to the Greek and Roman myths. And

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Speaker 3: part of that formula is that the the serpent in

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Speaker 3: these stories very often emits venom, and well, venom burns,

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Speaker 3: as anyone who's ever been bitten by a venomous snake

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Speaker 3: can attest, and so it was associated with fire. Well

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Speaker 3: that the early Christian stories that used the the serpent

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Speaker 3: motif traded venom for fire. So it's not much of

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Speaker 3: a stretch in the ancient mindset to go from venom

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Speaker 3: spitting to fire spitting. And that is how Christianity invented

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Speaker 3: the fire breathing dragon. And when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: wings and feet, that happened later. And yet not when

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Speaker 3: it comes to the wings, because there were certain dragons

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Speaker 3: and certain myths that could fly. The Witch media had

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Speaker 3: a flying dragon, and the hero Tryptolemos, who taught agriculture

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Speaker 3: to humans, would spread it around by going from place

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Speaker 3: to place on this chariot that was drawn by flying dragons.

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Speaker 3: But the thing is that the flying in these serpents

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Speaker 3: was considered abnormal, that they were flying dragons in the

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Speaker 3: same way that pay I guess this was a flying horse.

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Speaker 3: In other words, that's not normal for a horse, you know.

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Speaker 3: So in the Middle Ages, though, wings became the norm

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Speaker 3: in dragons by way of artistic creativity, because it wasn't

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Speaker 3: through the stories that dragons became habitually winged. It was

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Speaker 3: an art first. There was a period in the eighth

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Speaker 3: century when English artists were putting these fantastic animals as

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Speaker 3: a background background decoration to various items. And the animal

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Speaker 3: would have kind of the head of a mammal, and

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Speaker 3: the feet that kind of kind of looked like lion pause,

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Speaker 3: and then the wings on the back, and then this

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Speaker 3: really long sinuous tail that sort of resembled a serpent tail.

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Speaker 3: And in the following century we see that sort of

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Speaker 3: beast being placed into roles where the literature would put

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Speaker 3: a dragon like versus a saint or versus the archangel Michael.

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Speaker 3: And and by the time this tenth century rolls around,

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Speaker 3: it's starting to become standard to put dragons with this

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Speaker 3: bodily form. So how the dragon got associated with this

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Speaker 3: fantastic animal that they the English were using as a

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Speaker 3: background decoration, I can't say, but that's apparently what happened,

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Speaker 3: or at least it's what it looks like to me.

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Speaker 2: How did the garden of Eden become synonymous with the

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Speaker 2: devil the serpent?

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Speaker 3: Ah, There's a good question, because in Genesis the devil

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Speaker 3: is not mentioned. So now early Christian writers were equating

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Speaker 3: the Eden serpent with Satan. And I have a feeling

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Speaker 3: it has something to do with the Book of Revelation,

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Speaker 3: because in Revelation Satan is described metaphorically as a serpent

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Speaker 3: and a dragon. By the way, the writer uses the

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Speaker 3: Greek ophis, which means snake, and then the racon on

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Speaker 3: the next line, which means serpent, and it calls him

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Speaker 3: at one point that old serpent or that old dragon.

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Speaker 3: And I think the Christian writers ran with this and went, oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: that must be the Eden serpent. I think that's probably

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Speaker 3: where the connection came in.

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Speaker 2: Take away the flying wings, take away the fire breathing,

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Speaker 2: where dragons the real deal?

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Speaker 3: Well, take away the wings and feed and take away

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Speaker 3: the fire, and what you've got left is a snake.

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Speaker 3: And yes, snakes are real, so in a sense, Greek

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Speaker 3: dragons are indeed real. And in fact, I used to

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Speaker 3: have a PowerPoint presentation that I would excuse me do

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Speaker 3: in libraries with that title, and you know, not explaining,

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Speaker 3: just saying Greek dragons are real and then hoping that

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Speaker 3: would draw draw people in.

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Speaker 2: What about biblical monsters like Leviathon and things like that.

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Speaker 3: Leviathan is a fun one. There were serpent myths long

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Speaker 3: before the word dragon was ever used in them, as

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Speaker 3: that is as far as we know, as far as

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Speaker 3: the recorded use of the word dragon, and in the

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Speaker 3: ancient Near East, some of this involved a creature who

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Speaker 3: was known as lo tan or Litan in the Canaanite

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Speaker 3: tongue and Leviathan in Hebrew, and we've anglicized that to Leviathan,

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Speaker 3: and the the ancient literature calls Leviathan a tanine, which

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Speaker 3: is Hebrew for serpent. And see the Hebrews, just like

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Speaker 3: the Greeks and Romans and English speakers today had you know,

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Speaker 3: the informal way to say snake, which was nahash in

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Speaker 3: Hebrew and in the formal way which was tanin, and

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Speaker 3: Leviathan is called both things in the Hebrew text of

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Speaker 3: the Bible. And the Leviathan's story is pretty pretty cool.

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Speaker 3: He battles the supreme deity, and of course the supreme

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Speaker 3: Deity puts him down like a rabid dog. And there's

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Speaker 3: a bit more to it. In the Book of Job,

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Speaker 3: Leviathan is said to emit fire from his mouth, and

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Speaker 3: this may have helped inspire the fire spitting in the

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Speaker 3: early Christian dragon stories. But see an ancient Hebrew, it

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Speaker 3: might not have been meant literally, because fire breathing was

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Speaker 3: an ancient Hebrew idiom that means intent to cause harm.

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Speaker 3: So even the deity himself, God himself was said to

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Speaker 3: breathe fire in the Psalms.

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Speaker 2: What is the story about you when you were overseas

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Speaker 2: that you're always.

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Speaker 4: Had eaten by a dragon?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I did that. That was a fun day. The

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Speaker 3: ancient Romans used the word draco not just for snakes

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Speaker 3: and stories, but for real life pythons. Pythons were imported

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Speaker 3: from further south in Africa into the temples of Asclepios

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Speaker 3: and Alexandria. And because they always kept sacred snakes in

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Speaker 3: the temples of Asclepios, and the species that they used

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Speaker 3: in Greece was not present in Alexandria, so they had

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Speaker 3: to import whatever large species was there, and they got

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Speaker 3: the megal large ones of the pythons, so Draco became

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Speaker 3: equivalent to python for a time when Latin was the

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Speaker 3: was so common in the Mediterranean world. Anyhow, I grew

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Speaker 3: up in Liberia where there are pythons, and yes, one

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Speaker 3: tried to eat me once.

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Speaker 4: Yeah how old are.

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Speaker 3: Yes? I was eighteen. The thing is it did not

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Speaker 3: succeed because it was only about three and a half

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Speaker 3: feet long, and which makes the story less exciting, of course.

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Speaker 3: But what was going on was this was a python

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Speaker 3: that was in my care and a friend of mine

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Speaker 3: was hoping to use it for a science fair and

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Speaker 3: the goal was to try and feed it to cold

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Speaker 3: blooded things, knowing it wouldn't eat them, and then try

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Speaker 3: to feed it something warm blooded in front of the

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Speaker 3: crowd at the science fair to show to test the

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Speaker 3: hypothesis whether pythons prefer warm blooded to cold blooded prey.

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Speaker 3: So anyhow, I had the smell of bird on my

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Speaker 3: hands because I was getting the sacrificial bird ready for

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Speaker 3: the event, and I didn't wash my hands before transferring

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Speaker 3: Bloodthirsty that was his name, from one cage to the next.

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Speaker 3: And when I reached in, Bloodthirsty since the heat of

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Speaker 3: my hands, probably because they can do that, they've got

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Speaker 3: heat sits and pits on their faces, smelled the bird

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Speaker 3: and went home. Dinner's here and bloodthirsty just shot out

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Speaker 3: or wrapped around my wrist, and in no time I

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Speaker 3: could feel the constriction. It was oh, super fast, and

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Speaker 3: the constriction was super powerful. This snake had wrapped around

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Speaker 3: my neck numerous times just to be carried from here

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Speaker 3: to there gently. But this was not gentle. This was

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Speaker 3: an attempt to squeeze the life out of my wrist,

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Speaker 3: which it.

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Speaker 2: Point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they they when when they are about to constrict,

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Speaker 3: that's the first thing they do. They they pop at

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Speaker 3: you with their mouth open. They grab you at the

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Speaker 3: open mouth, and then if you are a small enough

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Speaker 3: animal to do this, then they roll with you and

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Speaker 3: it's the rolling that wraps them around you and then

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Speaker 3: they just squeeze. So anyhow, he kind of rolled himself

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Speaker 3: in mid air around my wrist and squeezed. It was

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Speaker 3: easy to flick him off because he was so small,

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Speaker 3: so the attempt only lasted a second or two. But still,

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Speaker 3: I'm one of the few people who can say a

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Speaker 3: python did try to eat me and I survived.

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Speaker 4: If it were a ten footer, what would have happened.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that would have gone a different way. It wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be It wouldn't have been as easy to flick a

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Speaker 3: ten footer off off my body, but it I mean,

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Speaker 3: given the size of me at age eighteen, I don't

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Speaker 3: think it would have succeeded, but I might have needed help.

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Speaker 4: I'd be interviewing the python right about now about the

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Speaker 4: little kiddy.

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Speaker 3: Eight you might, yes, which which might even be more interesting.

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