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Speaker 1: February two thousand and four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,

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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.

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Speaker 1: Join the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,

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Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting

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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Murray Saturday's seven sixth

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Speaker 1: Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new network

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Speaker 1: for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM

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Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. Prosecutors presented new evidence against

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Speaker 1: Curs Nichol, who's accused of strangling his wife. There is

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Speaker 1: DNA underneath the victim's fingernails that is consistent with the

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Speaker 1: defendant's DNA. Police a the family's three children were inside

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Speaker 1: the home in August when Kuris strangled his wife. Our

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Speaker 1: concern with him was largely a danger to himself and

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Speaker 1: a danger to his children. Headwise officers that he had

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Speaker 1: been he'd left their absence and went to the store,

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Speaker 1: return home. That's when he found his wife on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Police reports also way to Kate Nichols had wounds on

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Speaker 1: his arm and head. Don't you just hate it when

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Speaker 1: you leave the house for fifteen minutes to run through

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Speaker 1: McDonald's and get a cheeseburger, large fries in a dcy

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Speaker 1: diet coke. But of course, since I don't let my

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Speaker 1: children have soda, if I have to break down and

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Speaker 1: have a soda, I refer to it as prune juice

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Speaker 1: on eyes. Believe me, they never even asked to taste it.

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Speaker 1: It works. So you leave, you got fifteen minutes, and

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Speaker 1: you come back and your wife's dead. Isn't it funny

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Speaker 1: how that whole thing works. You got fifteen minutes, you

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Speaker 1: come back and your wife is dead. And what's really

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Speaker 1: crazy about it is your three young children are there

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Speaker 1: in the home and guess what when you ask them

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Speaker 1: what happened to mommy? They don't know anything. Probably do

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Speaker 1: you think one of them did? It? Isn't a coincidence

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Speaker 1: how that happens. And just a little sliver of time

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Speaker 1: that the husband is gone? Is he? Grace? This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me

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Speaker 1: forensics expert DestinE investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics

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Speaker 1: at jacksonvill State University. Also with me investigative reporter with

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Speaker 1: people magazine, Steve Helling. Of course, I'm talking about thirty

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Speaker 1: five year old Curtis Ray Nichols. Poor guy. He goes

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Speaker 1: to McDonald's for a big mac and he comes home.

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Speaker 1: He's barely white, the special sauce off his mouth, and

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Speaker 1: his wife is dead. What happened, Steve, Well, that's his story.

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Speaker 1: He ran a couple of areas, comes back, his wife's

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Speaker 1: unconscious on the kitchen floor. Now you know, like any

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Speaker 1: normal husband, he calls nine one one. That's his story.

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Speaker 1: I'm loving this picture of him. He has on a

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Speaker 1: blue button down shirt with a very nice looking Paisley

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Speaker 1: looking blue tie, and it looks to be an expensive belt,

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Speaker 1: and his dress slacks. His hair looks awesome in a

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Speaker 1: kind of a shag way, and he's got the defense

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Speaker 1: lawyer by his size, got a little fleet of defense

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Speaker 1: to with him because, of course suspicion fell on him.

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Speaker 1: Is this guy actually get to get out of this?

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Speaker 1: I gotta take a look at this picture again. He

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Speaker 1: looks a lot different than the mug shot. So let's

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Speaker 1: get back to the crime before I put too much

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Speaker 1: focus on what he looks like. Now again, can't judge

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Speaker 1: a book by their cover, So let's get back to

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Speaker 1: the timeline. That's where we start with everything. Tell me

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Speaker 1: the timeline to start at the beginning, Steve Helling, you

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Speaker 1: know they were there in this you know they lived

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Speaker 1: in this house. This husband and wife, were their three kids.

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Speaker 1: They were agent my star. She's beautiful. Yeah, she actually

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Speaker 1: looks like a Robin Wright, the actress and Princess Bride. Oh,

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Speaker 1: she looks like Robin and Princess Bride. Okay, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: just threw me off for a minute. Go ahead, back

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Speaker 1: to your story. They were living this great life, it

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Speaker 1: looked like. And he goes out to run some arians,

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Speaker 1: including going to McDonald's. And he says he's only gone

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Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes. And he comes back. She is unconscious

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Speaker 1: in the or you know, not not responsive in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen floor. And you know upstairs as the kids against

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Speaker 1: age of seven five and two, none of them seven

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Speaker 1: five into they're upstairs. Now let me understand this, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, let's just let's pause. I can't even

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Speaker 1: count the crime scenes, the autopsies. Do you name it

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Speaker 1: that the two of us have investigated? Right there? Alarms

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Speaker 1: are screaming in my head. So there's no sex assault,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing stolen. Three children seven, five and two? Or upstairs?

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Speaker 1: Have you seen this crib? I mean, check it out,

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Speaker 1: Jackie and Richard, the Saint Shabby. I mean, hey, I

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Speaker 1: went in mind look at this. It's a beautiful home

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Speaker 1: in a cushy neighborhood. He comes home from McDonald's. The

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Speaker 1: children upstairs, she's dead in the kitchen. What happens then?

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Speaker 1: Four days four days after her body is found, a

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Speaker 1: librarian calls them. Librarian calls the police and says they

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Speaker 1: recognize his face from news stories. The woman the librarian,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's my dream job. Joe Scott and Steve.

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Speaker 1: I worked at the library for years when I was

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Speaker 1: in school in the back. They wouldn't let me around people.

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Speaker 1: Why don't know, But I worked in the back with

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Speaker 1: sister Mary. She was a nun. Okay, processing books. Don't

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Speaker 1: you ever wonder how those things get in the book

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Speaker 1: that go off when you try to steal it? That's me, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll send the bat doing that. Luckily, this librarian comes forward.

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Speaker 1: She recognizes him, she says, and he had been in

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Speaker 1: her library using public computers, she says, for some time.

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Speaker 1: According to a warrant. When they go and interview the librarian,

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Speaker 1: she gives them copies of papers Nichols had actually printed out.

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Speaker 1: Guess what they were about, Steve Howling. They were about

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Speaker 1: case law and extreme emotional distress defenses. He had also

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Speaker 1: been copying newspaper articles, but was being very secretive, she says,

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Speaker 1: very secretive. And she goes on to say, as the

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Speaker 1: investigating officer concludes, I believe there's information he may be

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Speaker 1: searching a defense strategy or ways to hinder, delay, or

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Speaker 1: prevent prosecution for crimes he's been charged with. That's what

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Speaker 1: happened at the library. Steve Helling, you're leaving out a

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Speaker 1: major fact here. What about the librarian, Steve Helling, People Magazine.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a very good point, Nancy. And the thing is,

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Speaker 1: you don't think he had a computer in the house.

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Speaker 1: You don't think he had a phone in his house.

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Speaker 1: But no, he goes to the library, and at the

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Speaker 1: library he's looking up all this stuff about how to

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Speaker 1: get away with murder, basically, And that's what the cops

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Speaker 1: say that they have gotten on him, that this man

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Speaker 1: went somewhere and surreptitiously started looking up this information. And

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Speaker 1: if this librarian hadn't come forward, he probably wouldn't. They

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have known this information. Steve Helling, Investigative Reporter, People Magazine.

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Speaker 1: Now you're talking my man. He goes to the library

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Speaker 1: does the research because he is no idiot. Some legal

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Speaker 1: sleuths would argue, he doesn't want these searches turning up

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Speaker 1: on his home computer, his laptop, is iPad, or his

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Speaker 1: cell phone, so he goes to the public library and

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Speaker 1: does all the researching. Joseph Scott Morgan. I am so happy.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I just got this information served up

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Speaker 1: on top of the Christmas treet. So he goes to

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Speaker 1: the library a little did he know the librarian was

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Speaker 1: watching him, and she says he was quote very secretive

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Speaker 1: and stayed there for quote some time. He knows Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Isn't it true the devil's in the details? Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is, Nancy, It always is. Can I tell you

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Speaker 1: about a guy that I believe murdered his wife and

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Speaker 1: then set the house on fire to hide it. I

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Speaker 1: went to the crime scene, I was looking around what

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Speaker 1: was left in the house, and I know I turned

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Speaker 1: around to my investigator, Ernest, I went, he's a businessman

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Speaker 1: wear all his suits. Well, needless to say, I got

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Speaker 1: like thirty subpoenas in my hot little hands and started going.

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Speaker 1: And this is before you could just google mapp it.

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Speaker 1: I looked up in the phone book the pain all

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Speaker 1: of the dry cleaners within a ten mile radius of

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Speaker 1: the home, and we went. We drove, day in, day

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Speaker 1: out to every dry cleaner until guess what we found

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Speaker 1: all of his suits and shirts, everything had been cleaned

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Speaker 1: out of the closet, dropped at the dry cleaners in

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Speaker 1: the week before the fire. What's the likelihood that every

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Speaker 1: single armpit and every single shirt and every single suit

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Speaker 1: was stinky at the same time and everything had to

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Speaker 1: go to the dry cleaner just before the house burns down.

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Speaker 1: And your wife's dead with the blow to the head.

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Speaker 1: How does that happen? So at the devil's in the details.

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Speaker 1: My point is he screwed up going to the library. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what do we know about the cause of death? Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Well, I know this. He spent too much

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Speaker 1: time in the case law section of a library he

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Speaker 1: should have gone to He should have gone to the

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Speaker 1: forensics section if they have one of the library. Because

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Speaker 1: this is an evidence rich case, Nancy. What we do

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Speaker 1: know from the medical examiner is that this lady was

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Speaker 1: essentially strangled. Well wasn't her neck broken? Well? Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and this is a very personal crime, very personal crime.

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Speaker 1: And don't we see this time and time again when

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Speaker 1: we have case involving intimates like this. This is another

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Speaker 1: thing that we look at in forensics and something that

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Speaker 1: is detailed here. There was no sign of forced entry

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Speaker 1: or struggle in the environment. That means you don't have

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Speaker 1: when is knocked out, you don't have doors forced in.

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Speaker 1: It was a pristine scene other than the fact that

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Speaker 1: this guy's wife has been murdered, apparently there in their kitchen.

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Speaker 1: No sign of breaking at the home. That must have

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Speaker 1: been a severe, severe strangulation. Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the

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Speaker 1: death investigator because you can strangle somebody without breaking their

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Speaker 1: bones in their neck. All you have to do is

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Speaker 1: cut off their air source for you know, a minute,

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Speaker 1: two minutes, they're dead. Why do you have to break

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Speaker 1: the bones manually? Because this is a manual strangulation, not

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Speaker 1: a ligature, which means his fingers were around her neck

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Speaker 1: according to police, with such intensity it broke the bones

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Speaker 1: in her neck. What does that say to you, Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan protracted, protracted period of time with an intense

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Speaker 1: what we refer to as an intense amount of foot

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Speaker 1: pounds of pressure that it takes for the human for

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Speaker 1: the human hands to actually snap a bone in the neck.

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Speaker 1: Contrary to what you see in the movies and on television,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. It's not an easy process. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go too far afield here, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: but this guy has got some serious anger issues here,

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Speaker 1: and they had some things going on I think here

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Speaker 1: in this What do you mean by that? I mean

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Speaker 1: you can't just throw that out in the universe without

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Speaker 1: me following it up free inches up your tailpipe, buddy,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean issues? Oh? Well, you go ahead,

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Speaker 1: Hey listen, it's this environment that they live in. Most

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Speaker 1: of these cases where you have someone that is manually

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Speaker 1: strangled like this, this involves intimacy. You're right up close

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Speaker 1: and personal. Most of the cases that I've worked over

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Speaker 1: my career involving manual strangulation involve a lot of anger.

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Speaker 1: And this isn't a reactionary thing. This is him getting

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Speaker 1: up in her face, sitting on top of her, probably

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Speaker 1: and choking the life out of her body. Children upstairs

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Speaker 1: breaks the bones in her neck. I wouldn't be surprised

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Speaker 1: if one of the children didn't say this. There's two,

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Speaker 1: five and seven. Okay, hold on just a second. Let

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Speaker 1: me understand something. Steve Helling, investigative reporter with People Magazine,

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Speaker 1: colleague and friend, question, do you the librarian is not

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Speaker 1: just her eyewitness identification, which a defense will have a

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Speaker 1: field day at trial trying to destroy her eyewitness idea? Well,

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Speaker 1: how far away were you? How is the lighting? Don't

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Speaker 1: you wear glasses? How many people do you see a day?

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. Okay, he checked out a book. He

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Speaker 1: checked out a book, so there is a written record

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Speaker 1: of him being there, So don't jump on the little librarian. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but this is what I'm asking you about. Am I crazy?

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Speaker 1: Or wait? Wait, don't answer that. Am I correct that

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Speaker 1: this guy is out on bond? Steve Helling? You are

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Speaker 1: correct that he's out on bond, and you know that's

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Speaker 1: because well who knows why he is. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would think that this is a case. If there's ever

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Speaker 1: a case where somebody's going to be held without bond,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to think. It's a man who is accused

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Speaker 1: of strangling and breaking the neckbones of his wife while

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Speaker 1: his children are upstairs. You would think that that would

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Speaker 1: be a no bond situation. But yes, he is out.

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Speaker 1: He's out. Not only is he out, and he's out

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Speaker 1: on one hundred thousand dollars bond cash bond. The prosecutors

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Speaker 1: tried to get him sent back to jail, arguing that

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Speaker 1: he is a danger to himself and the children. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's a danger to the children because if one of

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Speaker 1: them is a witness, that's a problem. I always say,

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Speaker 1: when you don't know what somebody will do, look at

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Speaker 1: what they have already done. Back to Mike, don't groan

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Speaker 1: alan deep, but when you don't know a horse, look

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Speaker 1: at his track record. See what he's already done, because

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Speaker 1: that's what he's going to do. According to police, he's

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Speaker 1: already murdered his wife with his bare hands, with the

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Speaker 1: children upstairs. If one of them heard a struggle, if

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Speaker 1: one of them heard her scream and came down and

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Speaker 1: witness that, there's the state's chief witness catch this. One

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Speaker 1: of the grandmothers will not let police talk to the children,

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Speaker 1: and Daddy's out on bond. What judge did that. The

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Speaker 1: prosecutors tried to get him sent back to jail, according

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Speaker 1: to KUTV Channel two, but the judge and all of

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Speaker 1: his wisdom, deferred his ruling until a late quote later date,

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Speaker 1: which means this guy is a freeman talk about a

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Speaker 1: murder then trying to subvert justice by coming up with

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Speaker 1: the defense defenses at the library and ways to get

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Speaker 1: out of it. What I don't understand, what's why he's

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Speaker 1: out on bond, why the police can't speak to the children.

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Speaker 1: And one other fact, to Joe Scott Morgan, what can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about potential DNA in this case deoxy

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Speaker 1: ry bony clake ascid. What can you tell me the

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Speaker 1: DNA demonstrates that we've got connectivity between these two. It's

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Speaker 1: beneath the fingernails. In this particular case, Nancy, you have

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Speaker 1: to be able to explain how did the DNA get

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Speaker 1: underneath the fingernails. And the only way you can really

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Speaker 1: come back to this is that if somebody's attempting to

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Speaker 1: defend themselves where they're scratching and their clawing, and you've

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Speaker 1: got a tussle that's going on, and this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a key in this particular case to talk

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Speaker 1: about the violence that's involved. In this case, a DNA

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Speaker 1: sample taken from under Robin's fingernails, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the first things you do at a murder scene is

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Speaker 1: you quote bag the victim's hands with pay paper bags

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Speaker 1: and you seal them with a string or a rubber

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Speaker 1: band at the wrist, so in transit from the scene

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Speaker 1: of the murder to the morgue and during the movement

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Speaker 1: from the van to the autopsy table, you don't lose

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Speaker 1: that very very important DNA which may be invisible to

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Speaker 1: the naked eye from under the fingernails. The fingernails are

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Speaker 1: then clipped very carefully with a pristine clipper, and then

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Speaker 1: put it under a microscope and you vary carefully with

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Speaker 1: a metal utensil like a little file, scrape the nails,

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Speaker 1: or you simply process the nail itself to determine if

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Speaker 1: there is DNA in addition to the DNA in the fingernail.

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Speaker 1: That's what they did, and in this case under Robbin's

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Speaker 1: fingernails is her husband's DNA. And isn't it true Steve

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Speaker 1: Helen that the night of her murder her husband was

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Speaker 1: found to have marks on his arms and forehead that

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Speaker 1: appear to be scratch marks. That's absolutely right, Nancy, and

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Speaker 1: the police say that they are consistent with defensive marks.

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Speaker 1: You know, because obviously, if somebody has their hands around

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Speaker 1: your neck, you're going to start grabbing at their forearms

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Speaker 1: to try and pry them away, and your fingernails are

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Speaker 1: going to scratch their skin, and that's what police believe happens.

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Speaker 1: Oh I can say is judge, revoke this bond. Revoke

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Speaker 1: this bond an issue, and order for those children to

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Speaker 1: be able to speak to police. I want justice. Curtis

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Speaker 1: Ray Nichols, I'm onto you. When you run your own business.

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Speaker 1: You know, time equals money. That's not just an old saying,

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Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot com. He had his choe in the

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Speaker 1: Oval office. He was that close to the White House.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine teen porn obsessed? According to reports, Anthony

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Speaker 1: Wiener allegedly convinces his teen girl victim to get naked

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Speaker 1: and touch herself on Skype. Whoa okay, hold on, Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: I am going to bust you so hard you're going

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Speaker 1: to leak and limp for a month. Really, is this

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Speaker 1: what Anthony Weiner actually wrote to a little girl? And

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Speaker 1: now he wants the judge to allow him to remain free.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start at the beginning with me. Is investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter for People Magazine, Steve Helling and Psychologists out of

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Speaker 1: New York. Karen Stark. You know, I'm thinking about my

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Speaker 1: son and daughter, my babies, with some PERV on the

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Speaker 1: other end of the phone, asking them to take their

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Speaker 1: clothes off and touch themselves, telling one of them that

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Speaker 1: they would leak and limp for a month after he

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Speaker 1: pounded them. Okay, Steve Halling, do I need to know

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Speaker 1: any more facts or do I have it pretty much

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Speaker 1: capsualized right there? I mean, you really do know the

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Speaker 1: facts here, and they're ridiculous because, like we said, are

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Speaker 1: these are teenagers, these are underage girls. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: for him to be sexting whoever he wants, if she's

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Speaker 1: twenty five or thirty. It's another thing when they're fifteen

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Speaker 1: and he's they're graphic, and he's clearly the ones if

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Speaker 1: you read the transcripts, he's the one who's leading these conversations.

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Speaker 1: She's not sexting him, he's sexting her, and so it's

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Speaker 1: outrageous the stuff that he said that he says here.

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Speaker 1: The case led the FBI to reopen its probe into

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Speaker 1: presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton's private email server after investigators found

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Speaker 1: messages between Clinton and Wayn's wife, Huma Okay, Huma Abidant

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Speaker 1: the beautiful brunette you see with Hillary Clinton all the time.

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Speaker 1: That's his beautiful, intelligent and accomplished wife. Her husband is

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Speaker 1: sending pictures of his private parts via text email to

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Speaker 1: several different people while his wife is making a living

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Speaker 1: about to take a position in the closest closest quarters

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Speaker 1: in the White House, dragging him along with her. And

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Speaker 1: this is who is gonna walk into the Oval office?

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? So? Long story short, These texts

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Speaker 1: and emails, this case is what led the FBI to

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Speaker 1: reopen its investigation into Hillary Clinton's email servers just before

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Speaker 1: the election. And you know what happened. Then everything went

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Speaker 1: sideways for Clinton, this guy, and now he is in

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Speaker 1: court begging for leniency. Let's take it from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: What do we know? Oh my goodness, just saw a

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Speaker 1: picture of Anthony Wayner without a shirt own? Did I

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Speaker 1: really need to see that? Karen start? Before I go

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Speaker 1: back to Steve Helling, to start at the beginning with

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Speaker 1: the facts. Karen, start, Why does a guy get a

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Speaker 1: thrill about sending naked shots of himself to somebody else?

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're not even in the same room. How

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Speaker 1: does that whole thing work? Don't get too graphic. Okay,

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Speaker 1: my children can tune into Serious one thirty two and

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Speaker 1: hear this. Okay, So how does that work? It starts

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Speaker 1: pretty early, Nancy. It's a sexual obsession. This guy is

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Speaker 1: not just doesn't have a perversion. But what happens when

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Speaker 1: you can only get turned on a certain way is

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Speaker 1: that it compels you to continue despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: he's been in trouble repeatedly. And if you notice, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't learn from his past experiences. It doesn't matter that

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Speaker 1: it ruined his own career. He's obsessed to continue in

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Speaker 1: this manner. It could be a young girl, an older person.

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Speaker 1: He's an exhibitionist. He has to do this. You know,

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Speaker 1: you could argue, I've got to go rob a bank.

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Speaker 1: That's just I've just got to do right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I am not buying that. Now you're saying that he

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Speaker 1: hasn't learned from his past experiences. Again, Steve Helling, investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter with People Magazine, Let's start at the beginning, because

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Speaker 1: I've been saying Anthony Weiner in the news, that's an

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Speaker 1: unfortunate last name for this scenario. But in the news

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Speaker 1: from the beginning, apologizing for this and apologizing for that.

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Speaker 1: What all has he been apologizing for? Didn't he run

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Speaker 1: from mayor as well? And that got torpedo because of

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Speaker 1: the things like this. Yeah, he actually ran from mayor twice,

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Speaker 1: once in two thousand and five, once in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: I've lost track, Nancy would. I would have to do

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Speaker 1: a deep research of how many times we've listened to

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Speaker 1: him apologize for this exact same behavior. Now, sometimes some

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Speaker 1: of the times the women were grown ups, but still

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Speaker 1: it was like he did something on Twitter, he did

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Speaker 1: stuff on text. Oh my stars, Wait a minute, guess

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Speaker 1: what the text says with the naked Torso picture. I'm

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Speaker 1: in the hot tub. Okay, right there, that would be

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Speaker 1: enough to make me just go off the edge for

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Speaker 1: some naked guy in a hot tub to send to

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Speaker 1: my daughter, I'm in the hot tub, just saying, mmm,

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Speaker 1: my fists are actually my fingers are tingling because they

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Speaker 1: want to be in a note. They don't want to

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Speaker 1: be in a fist. They want to grab him around

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Speaker 1: the neck right there at the Adam Apple and then

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Speaker 1: just please really hard. So okay, let's just start at

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Speaker 1: the beginning. First, he got busted in a sexting with

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Speaker 1: a grown lady, right, and that was when was that

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Speaker 1: when he was running from here in two thousand and five? No,

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00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: that was later than that. You know, great, she's a

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Speaker 1: grown lady, but still it was aggressive. She wasn't into it. Again,

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Speaker 1: one thing, if she's into it, but he doesn't care.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't care if they're fifteen, he doesn't care if

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Speaker 1: they're a grown woman. He doesn't care whether they want

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Speaker 1: it or not. He's going to sext if that's what

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Speaker 1: he wants. And that's a real problem right now. We're

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Speaker 1: all working so hard to keep the Internet devoid of

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Speaker 1: sex predators. Karen Stark. It started off with him sexting

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Speaker 1: other women his at body parts. And I remember I

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Speaker 1: was literally walking to the set at Headline News and

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Speaker 1: it hit hit the airways. Wiener's at it again, this

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Speaker 1: time for sending shots of his penis. Somehow it went

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Speaker 1: to other people. How did that work? How did we

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Speaker 1: find out about it? He was trying to send it

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Speaker 1: as a direct message. Instead he tweeted it out. That's

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Speaker 1: what happened. Okay, that's certainly not what I want to

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Speaker 1: wake up and you wonder, and you wonder, was there

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Speaker 1: a Freudian slip in that he tweeted out a picture

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Speaker 1: of his peepee? Is that right? Wait a minute, was

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Speaker 1: it a naked peepee or was it him and his

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Speaker 1: undee with him and his underwear? As I recall, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is clarify, there was a thin layer of cotton

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Speaker 1: over that. Was that the one where his little boy

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Speaker 1: was in bed with him? No, that's a different time.

424
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, I'm getting them a little confused now, Okay,

425
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: So after that, what happened Steve? Hell? Oh gosh, I

426
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: mean yeah, so of course it becomes a big saying

427
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: whom it stands behind him? And then women have been

428
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 1: coming forward ever since then with different levels of credibility

429
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: about Oh, he sexted me, he sent me this, he

430
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: sent me that, But there were pictures of his naked

431
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: penis that you know, ended up leaking wind. The way

432
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: you say it like it's a secret. Like when I

433
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: grew up in Macon, we wouldn't say cancer. We would

434
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: say she's got cancer. Okay, So I noticed that, you know,

435
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: the subtle lowering of your voice. Yeah, okay. Since having

436
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: boy girl twins, you know, I don't think anymore about it, really,

437
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's there. Everybody knows about it. It's not

438
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: a secret anymore. I want to get back to the

439
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: teen girl, which is what he's in court for, facing

440
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: time behind bars, and according to sources, the state wants

441
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: two years behind bars. Yeah, tell me what happened. Prosecutors

442
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: say that you know, he knew full well that she

443
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: was a fifteen year old girl, and he's asking her

444
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: to engage in like all this sexually explicit conduct, both

445
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: on Skype and on snap Chat, and you know that

446
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: Snapchat everything disappears, So who knows what else he's done? Well,

447
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, I can tell you. According to

448
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail, and I'm sure this is all coming

449
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: out a transcription court with me psychologist out of New York,

450
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: Karin Stark and Steve Helling, reporter, People Magazine, there are

451
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: allegations Anthony Wiener carries on a long time sex relationship

452
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: with online sex relationship with a very troubled teen girl,

453
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: telling her she made him quote hard, asking her to

454
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: dress up in quote schoolgirl outfits, and pressing her to

455
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: engage in quote rape fantasies. She repeatedly tells him she

456
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: is just a teen, that she is a sophomore in

457
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: high school. She lets him know repeatedly she's a teen

458
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: girl under age, and he knows that quote. In one message,

459
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: he tells the little girl, I would bust that type

460
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Peu star star y. She claims he asked her to

461
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: undress and touch herself and say his name over video chat,

462
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: that he would get completely naked but usually shirtless wearing boxers.

463
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: He does not deny exchanging quote flirtatious messages with the

464
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 1: little girl. Well, isn't all this pretty easily verifiable? After

465
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 1: all my years prosecuting, I'm pretty sure that police can

466
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: forensically dig up his text and likely his photos he sent,

467
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: although Snapchat or live is going to be more difficult,

468
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: if not impossible matter. So let me ask you this,

469
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, Why should I believe now that anything is

470
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: going to change? Because, yeah, we can all get a

471
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: laugh about him sending out shots of his private parts

472
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: and his underwear accidentally on Twitter, or how we perceive

473
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: his texting and emailing and videoing with grown ladies, But

474
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: this is a child and we can't laugh because of

475
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: his past because right now children are in danger. They

476
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: are in danger, And I don't care how rich he

477
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: is or educator who he's married, to or how close

478
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: he is to the White House. This is a child

479
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: under the law. So why should I believe, after this

480
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: long record of missteps and apologies that anything is going

481
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: to change. You shouldn't believe it. Nobody should believe it.

482
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: The judge shouldn't believe it. It's really important that they

483
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: ignore the fact that he's making excuses again and saying

484
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: he's so much better, and look at all the terrible

485
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: things he did and he ruined careers, and none of

486
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: it matters because he will do this again. He's compelled

487
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: to do it. He's shown that he will continue to

488
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: do it. And if anything, Nancy I would say, and

489
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: this is really important, that he will get worse because

490
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: he started with adult women, which was bad enough that

491
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: he went public that way and took those kind of

492
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: chances when he was running for office. But now he's

493
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: going to children, and once you begin with underage children,

494
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: you can see that it's progressing and getting worse. Nothing

495
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: that happened to him was able to be stopped. He

496
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: went into therapy, supposedly, he said he got help. Each

497
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: time he said he was getting better, he would be different,

498
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: and obviously he can't be, which is known child molesters

499
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: unknown for the fact that they can't be stopped. There

500
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: is no therapy thus far that's been able to help

501
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 1: somebody and change the fact that they are attracted to

502
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: these kind of situations. So I really do believe that

503
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: something needs to be done to make sure this doesn't

504
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: happen with him. He goes by the handle Carlo's danger.

505
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: You know what, I don't think one shrink can handle this.

506
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: I think we need whole team from Vienna to work

507
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: on this. Carlo's danger and tea dog. Okay, that's not

508
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: a crime. I'm just putting it out there, according to

509
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: the reports. So tell me, what are the judges choices?

510
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: Steve Helling from People magazine, What can the judge do?

511
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: The government has asked that Wiener gets sentenced to the

512
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: prison term of twenty one to twenty seven months. That's

513
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: what they're asking for. Obviously, his lawyers are saying that

514
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: he's made remarkable progress in his therapy, which you know,

515
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: like you said, who knows, So they're saying that, you know,

516
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: they'd like a lot less. So we'll see what the

517
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: judge decides and how much prison sentence he gets. But

518
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, if the prosecutors get their way, he'll be

519
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: in prison for a couple of years. Take a listen

520
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: to what Wiener says in two thousand and eleven when

521
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: he resigns from Congress. Have the outset. I'd like to

522
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: make it clear that I have made terrible mistakes that

523
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: have hurt the people I care about the most, and

524
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm deeply sorry. I have not been honest with myself,

525
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: my family, my constituents, my friends and supporters, and the media.

526
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: Last Friday night, I tweeted a photograph of myself that

527
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: I intended to send us a direct message as part

528
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: of a joke to a woman in Seattle. Once I

529
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: realized I had posted it to Twitter, I panic. I

530
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: took it down and said that I had been hacked.

531
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: I then continued with that story. To stick to that story,

532
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: which was a usually regrettable mistake. This woman was unwittingly

533
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: dragged into this and bears absolutely no responsibility. I'm so

534
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: sorry to have disrupted her life in this way. To

535
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: be clear, the picture was of me and I sent it.

536
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm deeply sorry for the pain this has caused my wife, Huma,

537
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: and our family, and my constituents, my friends, supporters, and staff.

538
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: In addition, over the past few years, I have engaged

539
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: in several inappropriate conversations conducted over Twitter, Facebook, email, and

540
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: occasionally on the phone with women I had met online.

541
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: I've exchanged messages and photos of an explicit nature with

542
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: about six women over the last three years. For the

543
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: most part, these these communications took place before my marriage,

544
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: though some have sadly took place after. To be clear,

545
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: I have never met any of these women or had

546
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: physical relationships at any time. I haven't told the truth,

547
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: and I've done things I deeply regret. I vote pain

548
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: to people I care about, the most, people who believed

549
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: in me, and for that I'm deeply sorry. I apologize

550
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: to my wife, with our families, as well as to

551
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: our friends and supporters. I'm deeply ashamed of my terrible

552
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: judgment and actions. Then there's the two thirteen episode, and

553
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: this is his long suffering wife, Huma Abdeen. Listen to

554
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: what she has to say. Our marriage, like many others,

555
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: has had in tups and it's downs. It took a

556
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: lot of work and a whole lot of therapy to

557
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: get to a place where I had support handle It

558
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: was not an easy choice in any way. But I

559
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: made the decision that it was worth staying in this marriage.

560
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: That was a decision I made from me, for our

561
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: son and for our family. I didn't know how it

562
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: worked up, but I did know that I wanted to

563
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: give it a try. Anthony's made some horrible mistakes, both

564
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: before he resigned from Congress and after, but I do

565
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: very strongly believe that that is between us in our marriage.

566
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: We discussed all of us before Anthony decided to run

567
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: from heyor So. Really, what I want to say is

568
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: I love him, I have forgiven him, I believe in him,

569
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: and as we have said from the beginning, we are

570
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: moving forward. To me, it seems as if we're getting

571
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: this all tangled up in the presidential election with Hillary

572
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: Clinton and Donald Trump, and that winner brought down the

573
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: Clinton nominee because they thought the whole issue of her

574
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: having a private email server, which would of course defeat

575
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: everybody reading her email, government officials, it wouldn't be public email.

576
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: That investigation, I think was closed, and then because of

577
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: Weiner and all of his texting and email, it reopened

578
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: that just before the election, which Hillary Clinton now says

579
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: was part of her undoing. That reopening the investigation. She

580
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: doesn't say Anthony Weiner brought me down. She says that

581
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: the reopening Comey's reopening of the investigation destroyed her a

582
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: chance at the White House. Is that true? I don't know,

583
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: But I do know this sexual predator on a child

584
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: has gotten enmeshed between Clinton and Trump. I don't see

585
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 1: it that way at all. I don't give a flying

586
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: figure about that. I care about this. I care about

587
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: whether a judge will look at him as a powerful politico,

588
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: part of a power couple even though they're in divorce

589
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: proceedings now, and give him a break. If he were

590
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: a poor white guy or a minority or uneducated, history

591
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: room would be under the jail for this. So let's

592
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: see what judge is going to do with Anthony Weiner. Well,

593
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: you know what, I think A Texas couple kicks out

594
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: they're seven year old. What now? I've heard of parents

595
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: kicking out their son when he's you know, thirty five,

596
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: and they come home from work and he's laying on

597
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 1: the sofa eating chips and drinking a beer watching Days

598
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: of Her Lives if that's still on or Maury Povich

599
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: or whatever. I get that, But kicking out a seven

600
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: year old child. Why because they insist the seven year

601
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: old is possessed by demons. They kick the baby out

602
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: of the house and tell him to never come back again. Gee,

603
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: I wonder if meth has anything to do with this.

604
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: Straight out to Ashley Wilcot, child advocate, what exactly happened

605
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: in this story? A little boy is kicked out and

606
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: they abandoned the baby, and you know, to look at them,

607
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: I swear, Ashley, I think that they could be driving

608
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: through the car pool right in front of me. But

609
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: in fact, this Hook's Texas couple kick the boy out

610
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: and tell him never to return because he is possessed

611
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: by demons. What they didn't just kick him out Once

612
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: he went back home, they did it again. A neighbor

613
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: took him back home, thinking, oh, they must not be home. No,

614
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: they look normal, they appear normal. There they are, We're

615
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: going to drop him off. He goes back to the

616
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: neighbors again and they allegedly admit to the police, Yes,

617
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: we kicked him out. He has demons. It's a horrible

618
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: abandonment issue. But at least these two yohos have been

619
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: consistent and said we're kicking him out. He can't come

620
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: in our house. Joining me right now. In addition to

621
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, child advocate is Steve Helling, investigative reporter with

622
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: People Magazine. Let's start at the beginning. I'm just trying

623
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: to get my mind around a seven year old boy.

624
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 1: Seven year olds, they don't even always remember to wipe

625
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: their ear end. Okay, let me just put it out there,

626
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: and you put the child out and locked the door

627
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: and say don't come back. What more do we know?

628
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: Start at the beginning. Steve Halling, investigative reporter, People Magazine,

629
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: walk me through this. Take it from the beginning. Sure,

630
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: this little boy is goes over to a friend's house.

631
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: He plays with a friend, and then finally dinner time

632
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: comes and the mom says, hey, it's time to go home,

633
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: which we've all done that with our kids friends. The

634
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: little boy goes home, comes back, says he can't get

635
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: in the house. The neighbor thinks, oh, that must just

636
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: mean that maybe they're not home, maybe they're in the backyard, whatever.

637
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: So the neighbor drives over to the house and the

638
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 1: dad is mowing the lawn. The kid comes back crying

639
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: again and says, you know, they locked me out. They

640
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: won't let me come home. Now, let's talk about the

641
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: issue that they claim. The reason they kicked him out

642
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: was he's possessed by demons. Possessed by demons? Okay, Steve Halling,

643
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: how exactly do you determine if somebody's possessed by a demon? Well, listen,

644
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: I have six kids and I just had to get

645
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: them out of the house to school, and I believe

646
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: half of there they possessed by demons. Absolutely, But you know,

647
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there are kids that have their

648
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: behavior things someday, and I think that's what they're saying.

649
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: This little boy wasn't behaving, so they made this leap

650
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: to say it's demons, which of course it's not. You know,

651
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: it's he's a seven year old boy. And like you said,

652
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: well let me ask you questions, Steve Helling, People Magazine.

653
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: When he was playing with the little friend, they didn't

654
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: seem to have a behavioral problem, did they not at all?

655
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: They let him play there for hours, and believe me,

656
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: when the neighborhood kids get out of my nerves, I

657
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: send them home. Okay, So let me get this. There's

658
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: only a problem when the parents that get involved. It's

659
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: also my understanding, Steve Helling, and you're the expert in

660
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: the facts. But didn't their pastor tell them their sons

661
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: possessed by demons? Yes? Absolutely, and so you know, obviously

662
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: there was this church environment that thought that that was

663
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: an appropriate thing to say about a seven year old kid.

664
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott not only renowned child advocate but also practicing

665
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: lawyer or former judge. Ashley question, there's got to be

666
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: a way to charge this preacher. I know that's not

667
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: a popular alert theory, but to me, he's part and

668
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: parcel of it. He's the one that told the family this,

669
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: they believed it. He's in a position of authority, they

670
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: bought into it, and they abandoned the baby. That's exactly

671
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: what I was going to say, is where's the liability

672
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: of this preacher and criminal charges? I believe even under

673
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: the Texas Statute, they could charge him with child and

674
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: endangerment because of his saying this child's possessed by demons.

675
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: What else did he say? Possessed by demons, could never

676
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: be cured, Get him out of your house. Who knows

677
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: what he said. I absolutely think he should be charged.

678
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: You know, again, looking at these people I'm talking about

679
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: this couple. This East Texas couple who kicked their seven

680
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: year old son out of the house, insisting he's possessed

681
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: by demons, also telling him never to return. The couple

682
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: live in Hooks, Texas. I'm looking at them right now,

683
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: and the husband, Ronald Keith Wright, he looks like he

684
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: should put on a suit and go to work at

685
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: the bank. The deputies were called by a neighbor in

686
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: a church parking lot near the Rights home. They claimed

687
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: the Rights boy had spent almost the whole day playing

688
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: with their son. He left around dinner time, but he

689
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: came back ten minutes later. Can you imagine that you

690
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: go home, it's dark outside, your parents say, look, we

691
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: told you to leave and don't come back, and all

692
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: the doors and windows are locked. So the kid turns

693
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: around and trudges back to the neighbor's house. Earlier, a

694
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: neighbor had said that he had driven by driven the

695
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: boy back home, and he actually saw the dad out

696
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: front in the yard. He could see the family was home,

697
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: so he let the boy out of the truck. The

698
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: boy came back to the neighbor's home crying and said

699
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: his parents told him again to go away and never

700
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: come back home. The neighbor says that the mom and dad,

701
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: Randy right is the mom had discussed their son with

702
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: their a preacher, a preacher who told them the boy

703
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: was possessed by a demon. When deputies asked whether this

704
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: couple used meth meth amphetamine, they were told it was

705
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: quote more of a hobby. Steve Helling, investigative reporter with

706
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: People Magazine. Maybe I'm wrong, but everybody I know or

707
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: know of that has used meth ends up looking starved.

708
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: They look like they're about eighty years old, covered in

709
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: bug bites that they've scratched till they bleed on their face.

710
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: That's what I know about meth. And once you start,

711
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: you can't stop. It's over. Plus your hair falls out.

712
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: Ashley FYI, Okay, so how Steve Helling, People Magazine, is

713
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: this a hobby? They don't look like meth heads from

714
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: their mug shots. Now they don't. They really don't. But

715
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: I've got to say, you don't do meth as a hobby.

716
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: You go bowling as a hobby. Clearly, if they're starting,

717
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: they could be in the beginning of using math, which

718
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: could account for why it's been seven years and they

719
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: haven't kicked the kid out yet, and now they are.

720
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 1: You know, this could just be something new that they're doing.

721
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: That's a big question to me, Steve Helling. Do we

722
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: know if there are other children in the home. I

723
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: believe that there are. We don't know. I don't know

724
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: their ages or that type of thing, but you know,

725
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 1: there are references in local media too. You know their family,

726
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: and it sounds like there's probably other children. If they are,

727
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: you know, then does that mean that they selected one

728
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: and decided that this one needed to go? I don't know.

729
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: You know, another issue here, and these are not young

730
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: parents like you know, they're not nineteen or eighteen, and

731
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: you think, well, they're idiots because they don't know any better.

732
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: This is a fifty six year old man, Ronald Right,

733
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: and his thirty nine year old wife, Randy Right forces

734
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: that means physically pushes kicks the young son out of

735
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: their home and was told by the mom and stepfather

736
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: he's being kicked out of the house because he's possessed

737
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: by demons. That's a whole another can of worms. Ashley

738
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: Willcott child advocate, because in all the years that I

739
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: prosecuted child molestations, child abuse, child murder the mother without fail.

740
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking ten years a felony, child abuse and murder

741
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: cases without the mother stood by the lover, husband, live

742
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: in boyfriend, x, stepfather, whatever he was. Always took the

743
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: husband's side, the man's side, over the child. Can you

744
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: like shed some light on that for me? Asked she,

745
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: Because to this day I don't get it. I don't

746
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 1: get it, and I don't think that there are any

747
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: research projects that indicate why. But it is true statistically,

748
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: it is true they stand by their partner and put

749
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: that over the needs of the children, and they fail

750
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: to protect their own children. And it is significant to

751
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: note in my opinion that this is a stepfather of

752
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: the child. That doesn't mean anything to me other than

753
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 1: she is choosing him over the child. Now think about too,

754
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: if there are other children, this is probably the target child, right,

755
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: But what are they saying to any other children in

756
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: the home if they do have others to make them

757
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: not even open the door for their brother. So there's

758
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: other aspects of child and dangerment that I would submit

759
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: they've committed against other children if they're in life, you

760
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: know it. It reminds me two things. Remind me to

761
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: come back to Adrian Jones Ashley Steve Helling. That's the

762
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: case that we've been covering for quite a while where

763
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: the little boy, I think he was seven as well,

764
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: was ultimately murdered, but he was abused horribly right for

765
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: his death. The parents made him stay outside overnight in

766
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: a pool up to cold water up to his neck

767
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: all night with his arms over his head, and then

768
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: watch him on the video surveillance to see if he'd

769
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: lower his arms all night, and he was out there

770
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: begging to eat, begging to come in. That made him

771
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: live in a shower stall. That's just the tip of

772
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: the iceberg. He had so many broken bones, I can't

773
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: even count them. I want to come back to him,

774
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: Adrian Jones. But I remember Steve so vividly. I was

775
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: actually prosecuting a murder case and the victim was the

776
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: brother of an apd in on a police department, so

777
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: you know, I investigated it out the ying yang. During

778
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: that trial, I learned that the sister of the victim

779
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: had been molested her whole life. It was a big

780
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: family and they had oh I don't know, seven or

781
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: eight maybe more children. She was singled out. She was

782
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: the one that was molested, and it traumatized her the

783
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: rest of her life because not only the dad, according

784
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: to her, molest her all those years in the home.

785
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: The mother knew about it. That is the first time,

786
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: and that was in an unrelated murder case. I mean

787
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: it was tangentially related, but I wasn't prosecuting a child molestation.

788
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: But I couldn't understand for all these years. You know,

789
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: your girl, you know, four years old, five years old,

790
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: six years up until she leaves the home, is being

791
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: molested in the worst way by the father, right, I mean,

792
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: at the very least I'd kick him out and report

793
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: him to police, at the very least. You know what

794
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Ashley, I was just gonna say, you do

795
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: more than that. But yeah, I don't want to hear

796
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: you described my murder plans. Sadly, I've given away most

797
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: of my murder ideas in my Murder Mistress. So anyway,

798
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: I don't get the moms standing by while this is happening. Here,

799
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: she's standing by while the stepfather's kicking her baby out

800
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: of the house. What is wrong with her? I think, Nancy,

801
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: that there's this weird dynamic a lot of times with

802
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,919
Speaker 1: these women who have these kids that do this, and

803
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: my wife will will argue with me if I'm giving

804
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: the kids too much junk food, you know. So it's

805
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: amazing to me that these women don't don't stand up

806
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: for their own children. Guys. I'm taking a look right

807
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: now at the what is the tech Sarcana Gazette, and

808
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: I'm looking at these pictures of Ronald Keith Wright and

809
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: Randy Joe right. And the reason I keep talking about this,

810
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: I swear they look like they just came off the

811
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: tennis court or they're heading to their corporate jobs. It

812
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: really shows to me, Ashley Wilcought, you cannot judge a

813
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: book by its cover, right, Absolutely not. And do you

814
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: remember there was it was a People article, and it

815
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: was a few years ago at least, but there was

816
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: a group of soccer moms, beautiful women taking care of

817
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: their kids, doing all of the work in the home,

818
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: and they started doing meth. You all remember this story,

819
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: and if you looked at their pictures, you would never

820
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 1: in a millionaires realize they were using meth. But again,

821
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: the pictures were taken before it became such an obsession

822
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: that they were using it on a constant basis, and

823
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: it altered their looks. So you know, meth does affect

824
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: your physical looks, but not initially, not if you're doing

825
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: it periodically. But I do think these parents in this case,

826
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: regardless of how they look, they've admitted to using meth.

827
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: You cannot assume these irrational individuals who are going to

828
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: protect a child. Well, here's the other kicker. They're out

829
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: on bond. You throw your seven year old who can't

830
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: take care of himself, they are out on bond. You know,

831
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: statistics show there are nearly seventy thousand children who are

832
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: confirmed victims of child to be neglect in Texas alone,

833
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: nearly seven tventy thousand. And guess what, nearly eighty percent

834
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: of those the abuser is their parents. Well, all I

835
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: can say is for these two I'm talking about Ronald

836
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: Right and Randy J. Wright, I got a pretty good

837
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: feeling you're going to end up where you belong, Hell,

838
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: with a little pit stop in the jailhouse. This is Texas,

839
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: and they don't play. I'm really surprised they're even out

840
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: on bond. I swish I could put my arms around

841
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: that little boy and bringing home here crime stories. Nancy

842
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: Gray signing off goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing

843
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group

844
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: of people just like you to talk motives and alibis with.

845
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: If so, join the crime Con Cold Case Club and

846
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover

847
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Speaker 1: new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt.

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Speaker 1: Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of

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Speaker 1: nursing student Maura Murray in two thousand and four, and

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Speaker 1: it's free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up now

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Speaker 1: or find more info at ub dotcrimecon dot com. That'sclub

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Speaker 1: dot crimcon dot com.