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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast, and

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Speaker 1: Happy Halloween. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. So it's ghost Day.

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Speaker 1: It is um and so we decided we would talk

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Speaker 1: about ghosts. We tweeted a few weeks ago that we

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Speaker 1: needed to come up with a Halloween topic, and I

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Speaker 1: forget the verbatim tweet response, but it was something along

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Speaker 1: the lines of gender differences with ghosts. So I started

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Speaker 1: looking some stuff up and quickly came across, uh, a

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Speaker 1: pop music story that probably a lot of folks will

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Speaker 1: have heard about, and it's about a certain certain lady

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Speaker 1: named Kesha. You mean Dollar Sign? Yes, yes, yeah, she

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Speaker 1: she in an interview. Well, she called into Ryan seacrest show,

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Speaker 1: which I'm very credible, and she said that she'd had

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Speaker 1: sex with a ghost and that experience inspired her song Supernatural. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and she explained it to Ryan Seacrest. Thus, Lee, it's

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Speaker 1: a bad experiences with a supernatural, but in a sexy way.

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Speaker 1: I had a couple of experiences with a supernatural. I

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Speaker 1: don't know his name. He was a ghost. I'm very

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Speaker 1: open to it. That's a direct quote. I hope she

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Speaker 1: said it like that, yeah, and it kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: you gotta give it to Kesha a k A Dollar

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Speaker 1: side for coming out and and saying, hey, guess what

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Speaker 1: I wrote a song. It's about the time I had

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Speaker 1: sex with a ghost. Yeah, because that obviously happened, because

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Speaker 1: well it obviously happened because it happened to Anaticle Smith too,

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Speaker 1: who was another very credible source back in the day.

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Speaker 1: She she claimed that a ghost climbed up her leg

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Speaker 1: and had sex with her and she was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, it was so scary. And then I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: you're not hurting me and it's kind of nice, so

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Speaker 1: let's just keep doing this. So uh, you know, if

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Speaker 1: it seems kind of laughable, oh, Kesha had sex with

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Speaker 1: a ghost. Haha. But one of the first um search

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Speaker 1: results that I found was from our company affiliates over

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Speaker 1: at Discovery News that did a little bit of digging

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Speaker 1: into ghosts sex. And you know what, ghost sex this

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Speaker 1: is not just something that that you know, pop pop

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Speaker 1: stars claim here and there. This ghost sex has been

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Speaker 1: going on for quite a while. So we decided that

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Speaker 1: since it's Halloween and what better topic could there be

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Speaker 1: for stuff? Mo'm never told you to talk about then, well,

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Speaker 1: can you have sex with a ghost? Should you use ghosts? Uh?

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Speaker 1: You probably shouldn't have sex with a ghost if you

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Speaker 1: can help it. But the thing is you can't help it. No,

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Speaker 1: these spirits will have their way with you. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, like the ghost sex is not consensual,

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Speaker 1: but I don't want to get I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get ahead of myself because then on the other on

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Speaker 1: the other side of it, you have people who are

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Speaker 1: into ghost sex. Like I would say Kesha would fall

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Speaker 1: into this category because she said that she she was

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Speaker 1: really enjoying her ghost sex and even wrote a song

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Speaker 1: about it. Um. And this is referred to as spectrophilia. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well basically yeah, it's it's across cultures, the idea of

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Speaker 1: this ghost that can come attack you in the night sexually. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are Arabian jin's, the Greeks had Stader's, Hindu boots,

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Speaker 1: and Celtic I hope I pronounce it right, doucy. And

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Speaker 1: then this was my favorite form of these spirits, these

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Speaker 1: sexy spirits that that we found Medieval Chinese and Japanese

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Speaker 1: female spirits would take the form of foxes and they

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Speaker 1: were thought to visit, seduce, and later kill lonely bachelor's,

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Speaker 1: particularly scholars. So beware the fox in the night. I

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Speaker 1: suppose as you're writing with your quill pens um. But

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Speaker 1: they're okay, So so they we we have all these

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Speaker 1: different forms of them, and very quickly this becomes a

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Speaker 1: major concern for the church, the Capital ce Church, the

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Speaker 1: Christian Church. Yeah. Well, originally it wasn't such a big

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Speaker 1: deal if you had a nighttime sexy time dream, because

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Speaker 1: in the medieval period a lot of theorists were arguing

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Speaker 1: that nocturnal sexual encounters were just dreams, no big deal.

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Speaker 1: But that'll change in fourteen eighties six, when the text

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Speaker 1: Malleus Maleficarum a k a. The Hammer of Witches was published. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we go from saying like, hey, okay, you have a

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Speaker 1: sex dream. Well, that's fine. It's just like a simple indulgence.

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Speaker 1: You can't help it. It just happened. And then this

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Speaker 1: idea of the of the ghosts coming back to have sex.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of comforting that even after death there

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Speaker 1: was a chance to have physical pleasure once again. But

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Speaker 1: then in four eighties six, all that is thrown out

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Speaker 1: the window and it's it's kind of funny because at

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Speaker 1: first in in the medieval period period, the theorists had

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Speaker 1: it right saying like, oh, these are just dreams, and

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Speaker 1: the church is like no, no, no, these are legitimate

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Speaker 1: demons and ghosts. And the Malleus Maleficarum has a section

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Speaker 1: that explains that sex with the unknown is inherently evil

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Speaker 1: and a sign that you are fraternizing with Satan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and these city spirits have a name, and you've probably

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Speaker 1: heard them. I've heard them. One is a terrible band

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Speaker 1: uh Incubus and Succubus. Yeah, this is a quote from

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Speaker 1: Malius Maleficarum. Here follows the way whereby which is copulate

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Speaker 1: with those devils known as incubi. That's a good creepy

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Speaker 1: voice for Halloween, I know, practicing ll trick a triatas.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, So the incubus was the male ghost and

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Speaker 1: the succubus was the female ghost. So named because the

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Speaker 1: incubus was on top and the succubus would be underneath.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes the incubus and the succubus would be sort

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Speaker 1: of be the same, the same entity, but just going

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Speaker 1: through different phases. For instance, John Klein, who's a clinical

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Speaker 1: psychologist and a professor Yale talks about in certain medieval lore,

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Speaker 1: the incubus would come along impregnate a woman in a

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Speaker 1: very Rosemaries baby esque kind of way, who would then

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Speaker 1: give birth to a succubus that would then attack a

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Speaker 1: male victim, and once in possession of that male victim sperm,

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Speaker 1: the succubus would take on a male form that's becoming

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Speaker 1: an incubus again. And the circle FLFE that you come,

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Speaker 1: full demonic circle, Yeah, full full circle indeed. So okay,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Are we really? Are we really getting

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Speaker 1: attacked by ghosts at night? Well? Yeah, because this is

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Speaker 1: not just something that that stays in medieval times, and

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Speaker 1: it's not just something that that popped up with uh

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Speaker 1: with Kesha. These nighttime ghostly um experiences I'm putting experiences

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Speaker 1: in big giant quotes right now are still common. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: it has a lot to do with what your brain

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Speaker 1: is doing when you're asleep, because have you ever had

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Speaker 1: a sleepy time experience that you feel is just so

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Speaker 1: vivid You way up and you're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and I are getting married, or you know,

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Speaker 1: you just feel like something's holding you down. Or you

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Speaker 1: feel like you're falling, or you're twitching weird, or you're

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Speaker 1: having sex with a ghost or you're having sex with

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Speaker 1: a ghost. Well, this is all sleep paralysis stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I've had sleep paralysis before. I haven't. It's usually um

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Speaker 1: corresponding with narcilepsy and there's some other stuff going on.

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Speaker 1: I have never had an ecailepsy that I have had

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, which is basically you um are awake more

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Speaker 1: than you should be during rem sleep when your muscles

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Speaker 1: are turned off, so you're kind of conscious, but you

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Speaker 1: cannot move. And so I've gotten this feeling before, like

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Speaker 1: there's someone in the room and they want me to

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Speaker 1: come do something, and my my brain process is like

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Speaker 1: hang on, hang on, I can't get up, And you

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Speaker 1: do start to feel kind of afraid, like okay, well

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Speaker 1: someone's in the room and I need to get up

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Speaker 1: and move, but I can't. And so it's this whole

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Speaker 1: idea of of sleep paralysis and hallucinations while you're in

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Speaker 1: that kind of twilight in between stage that have led

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Speaker 1: to a lot of superstitions and believing in spirits attacking

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Speaker 1: you in your sleep. Yeah, there's a name for this, uh,

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Speaker 1: the old hag syndrome. Uh, this idea that it's an

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Speaker 1: old hag that comes and sits on your chest, which

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Speaker 1: is why you can't move. And folklorist David J. Hufford

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of research on this and he he

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Speaker 1: thought when he was doing this research that it would,

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Speaker 1: you know, he would find like a few people, but

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Speaker 1: it ballooned into this giant project because he found it

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Speaker 1: about fifteen percent of people. This is written about in

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Speaker 1: his book The Terror That Comes in the Night of

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Speaker 1: people experience being assaulted in their sleep by an unknown

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Speaker 1: entity at some point in their lives, probably as a

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Speaker 1: result of sleep paralysis. And now Kristen mentioned the old

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Speaker 1: hag phenomenon, this is not necessarily the same time of

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Speaker 1: the same idea as having sex with with a ghost

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Speaker 1: or some entity in your sleep. The old hag phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: as it's known through North America and England, is more

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Speaker 1: like the feeling that something terrifying is pressing down on

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Speaker 1: you while you're sleeping. So it does kind of tie

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Speaker 1: into the idea of the incubus in that way, because

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Speaker 1: it's supposedly on top of you, trying to suffocate you

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Speaker 1: when you're sleep. Yeah, and since it is also Halloween. UM,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it is necessary to point out too

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Speaker 1: that should you be ghost hunting tonight, uh, you should

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Speaker 1: abstain from having sex. Just go to sleep you might

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Speaker 1: encounter an old hag. Okay, but you really Uh one

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Speaker 1: of the rules. I did not know this before doing

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Speaker 1: this research, but ghost hunters are encouraged to abstain from

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Speaker 1: sex after they go ghost hunting because they're at high

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Speaker 1: risk of having their genitals possessed. I'm not making this

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Speaker 1: up now. I read it too, and it just um

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Speaker 1: of having their genitals zested by the ghosts of a hunt.

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Speaker 1: And this is coming from an article written by Karen

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Speaker 1: stoles now over at the Commitical the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry.

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Speaker 1: And Um. She goes on to quote Marianna Chatelaine Moresby.

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Speaker 1: He's talking about this potential danger associated with ghost hunting. Quote,

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Speaker 1: many male ghost hunters are prone to such anal ghost

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Speaker 1: intrusions and possessions. So you wanna you wanna wait, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't immediately go infecting your partner with ghost well,

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Speaker 1: and also speaking of this is going to be the

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Speaker 1: weirdest transition I've probably ever made on this podcast. But

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Speaker 1: speaking of anal probes. Also from this article the Skeptics Dictionary,

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Speaker 1: the author Robert Carroll talks about how he thinks that

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Speaker 1: alien abduction these ideas that the more modern day ideas

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Speaker 1: that we have of of alien abductions are modern day

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Speaker 1: versions of ghost sex, because so often the purported victims

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Speaker 1: will claim sexual abuse and anal probing. Interesting, so maybe

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Speaker 1: alien abductions are the twenty first century ghost sex. Yeah, intriguing. Um.

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Speaker 1: The Skeptical Inquirer in March had an article about the

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Speaker 1: spectrophilia of which we speak and they made an interesting

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Speaker 1: point and I think this this ties along with the

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Speaker 1: church's finger wagging of ghost sex. Uh. They write that

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Speaker 1: attributing sexual dreams or sexual thoughts to a supernatural force

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Speaker 1: is a guiltless absolution for those with moral objections. And

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Speaker 1: so maybe back in the day those priests were having

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Speaker 1: sexy time dreams and we're like, oh, I didn't know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. It was a demon. But however,

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Speaker 1: if you're a woman back in the day who thinks

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Speaker 1: that you have spirit sex, you might be a witch

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Speaker 1: and you might be burned for it. Now I should

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Speaker 1: point out to possibly new listeners out there, Uh, we

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Speaker 1: are not speaking this as offering this as scientific fact

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Speaker 1: that ghosts come around and have sex with people. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of these articles even in um you know,

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Speaker 1: on on skeptic sites will say, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: there there has been no there's no proof that anyone

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Speaker 1: who's that that an incubus or a succubus actually exist.

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Speaker 1: And it is like we talked about, attributed now to

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, because it turns out that those medieval theorists.

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Speaker 1: If we had just listened to the medieval theorists who said,

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Speaker 1: yes on the one thing, that it's all in our

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Speaker 1: brains making dreams, um, then then that that's all it is.

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Speaker 1: We we would could have saved ourselves. Um. But then

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't have all of this this folklore to talk

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Speaker 1: about for Halloween. Um. And speaking of Halloween to James

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Speaker 1: McLennan and Emily Edwards Uh published an article in the

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Speaker 1: journal Southern Folklore in looking at whether or not um

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Speaker 1: horror movies and instances of ghost sex or assault in

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Speaker 1: Halloween horror movies might influence the number of reports anecdotal

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Speaker 1: reports of ghost sex, and they did not find a

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Speaker 1: strong connection between the two. Yeah, I mean there could

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Speaker 1: be some degree of suggestion, because people all the world

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Speaker 1: over experience this. You know, it's not just like a

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Speaker 1: certain group of people feel this intense sensation when they're sleeping.

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Speaker 1: But so maybe hearing this folklore, you might be like, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe something kind of paranormal happened, right, because there was,

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Speaker 1: um what was it about sleep paralysis that in Mexico?

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Speaker 1: There was one study finding the like of the kids

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Speaker 1: in the you know, the population that they had surveyed,

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Speaker 1: knew this colloquial term for what we would call old

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Speaker 1: Hag syndrome. Yeah, and I think it was something like

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Speaker 1: a dead person holding you down. Yeah, yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: something like that. Um So, and it's and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting to see, like how how it is such

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Speaker 1: a cross cultural um thing. Well, yeah, when something freaky

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Speaker 1: happens to you and you feel like you're sure of

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Speaker 1: something like okay, well I'm sure that was a stronger

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Speaker 1: feeling than I have in my normal dreams. Like it's

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Speaker 1: not just a normal dream where you're doing whatever you're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's like you you actually are feeling something and maybe

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Speaker 1: hallucinating at the same time, because you're in that twilight

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Speaker 1: rim stage where you shouldn't be awake because everything is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be switched off. Maybe you have evidence of

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Speaker 1: arousal and you wake up and you're like, Okay, something's

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Speaker 1: been going on when I've been asleep because I really

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Speaker 1: felt something. Yeah, but I mean, if anything, though, we

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Speaker 1: can take comfort on the spookiest of days that it

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Speaker 1: is it's just our brain playing tricks on us. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe Kesha does have some portal to the afterlife,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it's a fox in the night. I love

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Speaker 1: that their fox is attacking. Well, not not the attacking part,

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Speaker 1: but foxes seeking out uh, scholarly bachel laws, so watch yourself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh man, I got a soft spot for some folk lore.

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Speaker 1: Gotta love it. Um. So uh, now do we ask

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Speaker 1: for ghost sex stories? Yes? Have you ever had sex

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Speaker 1: with a ghost? Do you get sleep paralysis? Yeah? The

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Speaker 1: old hag syndrome. I'm sure there's got to be people

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Speaker 1: out there who have experienced that feeling of someone, um,

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Speaker 1: someone sitting on your chest or someone being in the room.

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Speaker 1: I also know people who have who have felt like

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Speaker 1: they have sensed ghosts around. There was oh man, uh

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Speaker 1: sort of on a on a side note, um, speaking

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Speaker 1: of ghost sex. We hear a lot about ghosts coming

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Speaker 1: to have sex with living humans, but last year there

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Speaker 1: was is in a small town in Ohio, there was

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Speaker 1: a report of a woman who was upset because she

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Speaker 1: kept seeing two ghosts in her house having sex with

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Speaker 1: each other. And a para psychologist who was interviewed was like,

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Speaker 1: what we never hear you know, ghosts ever want to

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Speaker 1: have sex with other ghosts. Yeah, that was funny. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot a lot written about that in that article,

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Speaker 1: just about like, well, maybe they knew each other, and

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Speaker 1: you know, ghosts are just imprints of energy, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe something really intense happened on your couch a time ago,

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Speaker 1: and so the ghosts have found their way back. Oh, ghosts,

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Speaker 1: you'ld romantic or pervy? Your choice. I don't know about you, Caroline.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go head out and find as much fun

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Speaker 1: sized candy as possible to eat should be on sale. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'll probably have to take a nap by three o'clock. Um.

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Speaker 1: But now, yeah, ghost stories, please send them our way,

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Speaker 1: and we want to know if you've encountered any ghosts,

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Speaker 1: whether they're having sex or not. Yeah. Mom, Stuff at

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Speaker 1: Discovery dot com for all of your spookey letters. But

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Speaker 1: before we get to some non spooky letters, we have

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Speaker 1: to our letters. So we've got a couple of emails

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Speaker 1: here about our episode on fem phobia, and this is

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Speaker 1: coming from Katie. My daughter already has some gender issues

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Speaker 1: at four years old. I have a little girl who

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Speaker 1: likes plenty of quote unquote boy things like catching snakes

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Speaker 1: and bugs, digging in the dirt, and climbing trees. But

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Speaker 1: she also likes plenty of quote unquote girl things, like

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Speaker 1: playing dressed up and playing with baby dolls. My approach

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Speaker 1: has always been to just let her be herself and

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Speaker 1: not talk to her too much about boy slash girl stuff.

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Speaker 1: I have vowed all so to never call her a tomboy,

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Speaker 1: because I think that is a limiting label. I agree

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Speaker 1: she right now is in a total pink obsession that

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Speaker 1: was largely sparked because some of the boys that are

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Speaker 1: pre school told her that because she has a bob

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Speaker 1: and we're a purple sparkly shirt and also has a

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Speaker 1: Batman logo on it, all that's really cute, that she

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Speaker 1: must be a boy and that the only way to

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Speaker 1: be a girl is to wear pink. This of course

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Speaker 1: disturbs me too, and I've had plenty of discussions with

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Speaker 1: her about how girls can wear whatever color they want

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Speaker 1: and about how my favorite color is blue, but she

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Speaker 1: insist on wearing mostly pink. I tell her that as

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Speaker 1: long as she truly likes pink, it's just fine for

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Speaker 1: her to wear it while also trying to model a

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Speaker 1: more open gender identity. I think that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: bothers me most about from phobia. It puts femininity in

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Speaker 1: a box. I don't see a whole lot of difference

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Speaker 1: between a little preschool boy telling my daughter she's not

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Speaker 1: a girl enough because she wore a Batman shirt and

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Speaker 1: some blogger telling women they are not woman enough because

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Speaker 1: they're wearing pink and sparkles. We are all women, we

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Speaker 1: are mostly born that way. I don't need to show

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Speaker 1: that I'm a woman by conforming to your narrow definition

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Speaker 1: of good enough woman. When we get into a big

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Speaker 1: argument about what being a woman means, we make it

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Speaker 1: harder for women to be free to just be themselves

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Speaker 1: whatever that is. No matter what narrow definition you gift womanhood,

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Speaker 1: some women are not going to fit into it, So

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Speaker 1: stop trying to define it and just accept people for

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Speaker 1: who they are. I agree, as long as your costume

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Speaker 1: is nice and warning. Yes um. This one is from Joscelyn.

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Speaker 1: Also on our Femphobia episode, she says that she encounters

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Speaker 1: fimphobia almost every time she gets to know someone new,

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Speaker 1: especially a guy. So she says, I'm twenty years old

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Speaker 1: studying finance, a traditionally male dominated field at Arizona State.

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Speaker 1: I'm sweet and outgoing. I have blonde hair and blue eyes.

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Speaker 1: I love to shop, I love to bake, and I

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Speaker 1: wear high heels and a skirt or dress almost every

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Speaker 1: single day. On the surface, I look extremely feminine. Because

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Speaker 1: of this, men in the finance industry and in my

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Speaker 1: classes have treated me differently. When people find out that

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Speaker 1: I'm intelligent, graduating college a year and have early got

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Speaker 1: a full ride scholarship, have been working full time for

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Speaker 1: almost four years to completely support myself, have a fantasy

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Speaker 1: football team, or anything about me that is not ultrafeminine

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Speaker 1: like my outward appearance suggested would be, people are shocked.

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Speaker 1: The fact that people are surprised by these things in

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Speaker 1: comparison to my outward appearance goes to show that femininity

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Speaker 1: is related to weakness, vulnerability and has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with strength, power, initiative, independence, and intelligence. Yes, it's true

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Speaker 1: that women have almost equal rights now and that women

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Speaker 1: for the most part are treated equally technically speaking, but

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Speaker 1: when it comes when it really comes down to it,

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Speaker 1: you can see that feminine women are still perceived as

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Speaker 1: inferior by both men and nonfeminine women. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: this concept. I believe being a feminist and being a

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Speaker 1: woman embracing her woman nous can come in so many

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Speaker 1: different forms. I just so happened to embrace my feminine appearance.

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Speaker 1: I believe that regardless of your appearance, that is how

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Speaker 1: you carry yourself and what you do that are ultimately

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Speaker 1: the factors that decide whether or not you are a

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Speaker 1: woman or a girl woman. So thank you, Jocelyn, and

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Speaker 1: good luck graduating early. You go girl scholarship. That's impressive,

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Speaker 1: And thanks everybody who's written into mom Stuff at Discovery

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Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Facebook, where I

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Speaker 1: totally encourage you to go post your Halloween costume pictures,

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Speaker 1: and you can tweet us as well at mom Stuff podcast,

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Speaker 1: and you can follow us on tumbler stuff mom Never

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Speaker 1: Told You dot tumbler dot com. And as if that

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Speaker 1: is not enough, you can go learn all about Halloween

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Speaker 1: traditions over at our website, It's how stuff works dot

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Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

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Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com