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Speaker 1: They are not prepared for what's about to happen, or

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Speaker 1: what is already happening, which is this flood of AI

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Speaker 1: generated material being uploaded.

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Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget

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Speaker 3: Todd and this is there are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: Our names hold so much power. When Anna made Bullock

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Speaker 3: left her abusive husband Ike, she famously said that she

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Speaker 3: didn't want any assets, only the stage name that he

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Speaker 3: had given her, Tina Turner. So much of our reputation

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Speaker 3: and who we are to the outside world it's wrapped

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Speaker 3: up in our names. So what if someone was using

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Speaker 3: AI to scam people using your name? This is exactly

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Speaker 3: what writer Jane Friedman woke up to find last week.

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Speaker 3: Someone was selling bad AI versions of books with her

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Speaker 3: name listed at the office and selling them on Amazon.

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Speaker 2: When we sat down.

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Speaker 3: To talk about it, I quickly realized that I had

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Speaker 3: Jane mixed up with another woman who is also a

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Speaker 3: big name in publishing, who was also named Jane Friedman.

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Speaker 1: Well, you may want to back up and reconsider that question,

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Speaker 1: because there's another Jane Friedman in publishing who is the

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Speaker 1: former suit you of HarperCollins and the founder of Open Road.

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Speaker 1: So you fight want her instead for this podcast?

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Speaker 3: Out embarrassing, right, I know, not an ideal way to

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Speaker 3: start an interview, and I wouldn't ordinarily include my mistakes

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Speaker 3: in the show, but I felt like it highlighted the

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Speaker 3: importance of and complexities around names, especially in a field

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Speaker 3: like publishing. Jane says that she gets confused for the

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Speaker 3: other Jane all the time, and I was struck by

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Speaker 3: what a headspinner this all was. Jane having to differentiate

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Speaker 3: her name from another Jane in publishing, while also going

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Speaker 3: up against Amazon to differentiate her name from an AI

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Speaker 3: enabled scammer. Well, I hate that I am starting off

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Speaker 3: this interview with a big mistake, but it does kind.

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Speaker 2: Of feel relevant to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: No, it's totally all right, I completely understand. So I

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Speaker 1: started in publishing right out of college. Actually, while I

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Speaker 1: was still in college, I had an internship at a

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Speaker 1: traditional publishing house in the Midwest in Cincinnati. I stayed

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Speaker 1: there for twelve years, which was pretty unusual. Most people

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Speaker 1: hop around in publishing jobs, but I stayed put. I

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Speaker 1: took a dtour as a writing professor for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years went back into publishing, working for a literary journal,

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Speaker 1: the Virginia Quarterly Review, and then around let's see, this

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Speaker 1: was twenty fourteen, I went full time freelance entrepreneur, and

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Speaker 1: so as of today, I write I published mainly for

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Speaker 1: an audience of writers and publishers. So it's a very

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Speaker 1: meta career that I've developed.

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Speaker 3: Something that I read about you in my research for this,

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Speaker 3: which hopefully is the right Jane Friedman, is that you

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Speaker 3: have this reputation of being like an honest broker of

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Speaker 3: information about the publishing space, and it's a space that

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Speaker 3: can sometimes be kind of opaque, kind of murky. Do

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Speaker 3: you think that's one of the reasons why whoever was

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Speaker 3: trying to use your name to publish these fraudulent books

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Speaker 3: targeted you as someone who is known for giving honest information.

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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating question because I would really love to

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Speaker 1: know what motivated them to target me and my name.

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Speaker 1: Was it actual knowledge of what I do, or was

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Speaker 1: it some spreadsheet that told them my name ranks well

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Speaker 1: for the topic of e books and publishing and they're

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Speaker 1: just like that, you know, and I was just picked

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Speaker 1: out of a hat. I'm not sure, but certainly there's

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Speaker 1: demand surrounding what I do because I'm seen as trustworthy

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Speaker 1: and i' I mean, and that's very intentional. I try

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Speaker 1: to be to give people a three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: degree view of the publishing industry. I don't consider myself

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Speaker 1: necessarily by a for any publishing path. It's really what

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Speaker 1: suits this author at this time, what's going to best

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Speaker 1: further their career goals.

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Speaker 3: I do feel like it is a space where there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of people selling a lot of things, whether

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Speaker 3: it's their course or whether it's you know, oh, you

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Speaker 3: should be doing xyz on Amazon, You're going to make

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Speaker 3: so much money. And I think the space can be tough,

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Speaker 3: and I think someone giving people like the honest rundown

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Speaker 3: of what's happening is really really valuable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too, because there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of promises made. Writers are also susceptible to flattery, and

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of people services companies that pray

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Speaker 1: on writers' dreams for their work, and I find it

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Speaker 1: pretty shameful because I think what's not really understood is

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Speaker 1: that sometimes there's more money to be made from the

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Speaker 1: writers themselves than from actually selling their writers work.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty disappointing to hear.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes it is, and I don't candy coat things,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that's why people trust me to

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Speaker 1: tell it like it is.

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Speaker 3: Last week, Jane Friedman was alerted to the fact that

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Speaker 3: someone who wasn't her was publishing books under her name.

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Speaker 3: Those titles were added to her Goodreads author page and

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Speaker 3: Amazon page, so a casual observer would probably think they

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Speaker 3: were written by Jane. Jane tweeted, as of today, there

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Speaker 3: are about half a dozen books being sold on Amazon

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Speaker 3: with my name on them that I did not write

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Speaker 3: or publish. Some huckster generated them using AI. This promise

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Speaker 3: is to be a serious problem for the book publishing world.

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Speaker 3: So you wake up one day and you see a

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Speaker 3: bunch of books on your Goodreads profile. For folks who

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Speaker 3: don't know Goodreads is owned by Amazon, is it. What's

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Speaker 3: your first reaction when you see this?

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Speaker 1: A panic? Panic, because I know how hard it's going

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Speaker 1: to be to correct, being very familiar with Amazon's procedures

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Speaker 1: and policies, which I've dealt with in the past. I

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Speaker 1: know countless authors who have to deal with this, and

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Speaker 1: it's like banging your head against the wall. And I

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Speaker 1: was notified by someone who was aware of my name

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Speaker 1: and my work. Not super like fan, but someone who

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Speaker 1: you know, was just curious enough to go looking for

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Speaker 1: what I've written and published in book form, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's these fraudulent books that they stumbled on first. And

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Speaker 1: thank god they had the critical thinking skills to alert me,

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Speaker 1: rather than assuming I was trying some new, weird experiment.

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Speaker 3: Like Jane's writing has really gone down of you not

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Speaker 3: just right exactly. Okay, So, I, like a lot of

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Speaker 3: people listening a thousand percent assumed that the way that

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Speaker 3: you that a writer controls what shows up under their

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Speaker 3: name on their good Reads page.

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Speaker 2: But that is actually not the case.

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Speaker 3: And so what did it actually look like to get

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Speaker 3: a book removed from your good week page?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of insane. You know, most social media

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Speaker 1: sites or community sites, you do have one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: control over your profile. But that's not the case that

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Speaker 1: good Reads, nor do they notify you when something has

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Speaker 1: changed on your profile as sub like as substantial as

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Speaker 1: a new book has been added. You have no idea

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Speaker 1: unless you're monitoring it yourself. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: get a book removed from your profile, which just to

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Speaker 1: be clear, it's automatically added by Amazon. Also, individuals can

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Speaker 1: manually add books to an author's profile. So like any

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Speaker 1: any like Rando can go and just look for the

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Speaker 1: fine print. You can find it. If you really want

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Speaker 1: to screw with someone, I don't suggest you do that,

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Speaker 1: but if you really had you know, an enemy out

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Speaker 1: there anyway, So if you want to get the book

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Speaker 1: removed or books removed in my case, there's a Librarians group.

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Speaker 1: It's a group of volunteers who try to keep the

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Speaker 1: good Reads data appropriate, in line, clean, useful. And if

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Speaker 1: you go into this group, you'll see that there's like

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Speaker 1: thousands upon thousands of requests from authors to have their

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Speaker 1: profiles corrected. And so I just had to join the

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Speaker 1: line please correct my profile.

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Speaker 3: So the Librarians group, these are like unpaid volunteers.

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Speaker 1: That's correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's what's.

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Speaker 3: Wild to me about this is that both the way

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Speaker 3: that it works, this Librarians group, and the way that

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Speaker 3: you had to really raise hell on social media to

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Speaker 3: get Amazon to do anything. Yeah, Amazon is this billion

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Speaker 3: dollar global company. They don't have people internally who could

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Speaker 3: be paid to keep their platforms reliable, safe, accurate, etc.

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Speaker 2: Etc.

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Speaker 3: It's curious to me that they would not be invested

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Speaker 3: in that and instead are relying on the labor of

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Speaker 3: volunteers and people who have no business doing this, like

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Speaker 3: it's not your job to do this as a writer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I could and agree more, and that there are

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Speaker 1: two sets of problems here. Unfortunately, there's the Goodreads problem,

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Speaker 1: which that's a company that they bought. It's been maybe

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, and they basically bought it and abandoned it.

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Speaker 1: And I've been told by people behind the scenes that

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Speaker 1: the coding of that side and just the whole like

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Speaker 1: structure and ability to change it is not straightforward. So

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Speaker 1: rather than do the right thing and improve it, they're

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Speaker 1: just kind of letting it decay. Is that the right word.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, duct tape. That's how it's surviving

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Speaker 1: at this point. So like I could understand, maybe like

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Speaker 1: they don't want to get into that mess. However, the

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Speaker 1: other side of this is Amazon itself and how books

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Speaker 1: get uploaded to their site, and there are more formal

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Speaker 1: processes with what I assume are paid employees looking at

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Speaker 1: these infringement claims, which is what I had to submit.

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Speaker 1: But there are different tiers and you know, you're our

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Speaker 1: initial request is going to go to the lowest level tier,

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Speaker 1: and it's like corresponding with AI. Ironically, you don't get

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Speaker 1: any sense of if it's a human being. On the

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Speaker 1: other side, you feel like they're going through this really

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Speaker 1: rigid rule book of you know, did they provide X,

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Speaker 1: did they provide Y? And if not, close the case.

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Speaker 1: So they're trying to get rid of you, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. And I have a tiny bit

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Speaker 1: of sympathy just because I've been around writers for so long.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them are going to be upset annoyed

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Speaker 1: by all sorts of things that happen on Amazon site

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Speaker 1: that really don't constitute infringement or what I would call

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Speaker 1: more of an annoyance. And so Amazon must have to

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Speaker 1: filter through thousands of these things a day, so I

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Speaker 1: get it, but they are not prepared for what's about

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Speaker 1: to happen, or what is already happening, which is this

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Speaker 1: flood of AI generated material being uploaded.

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Speaker 3: So when you first alerted Amazon to what was going on,

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Speaker 3: how did they initially react that The person that you

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Speaker 3: reached out to first was what was the vibe?

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Speaker 1: So the first response I got was it felt very automated,

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Speaker 1: which was it wanted me to itemize the offending products

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Speaker 1: or books and then also linked to what work was

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Speaker 1: being infringed upon. So it wanted to know you're the

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Speaker 1: copyright owner of what book and what are the books

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Speaker 1: that are infringing on it? And of course if it's

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Speaker 1: AI generated, well, A, it's not copyright protected in the

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Speaker 1: first place, and B it's not necessarily infringing on existing work.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's creating new work in the style of

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Speaker 1: So when I said, when I tried to explain this,

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Speaker 1: I was asked for my trademark registration numbers instead. But

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Speaker 1: most authors do not trademark their name. It's a pretty

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Speaker 1: expensive process and also would only pertain very narrowly to

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Speaker 1: your work. And so I couldn't satisfy that request either.

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Speaker 1: But I tried to, you know, explain and look, this

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Speaker 1: is false advertising. Nay, my name is being abused here.

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Speaker 1: It's trying to pass off work as mine when it's not.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I couldn't check any of the boxes

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Speaker 1: for them, so they closed the case without removing the books.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: At our back.

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Speaker 3: Amazon made Jane jump through a lot of hoops to

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Speaker 3: deal with this issue. After she couldn't produce a trademark

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Speaker 3: for her own name, who could or the copyright for

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Speaker 3: the sham books on Amazon. Amazon closed the case and

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Speaker 3: said they would not be removing the books, but Jane

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Speaker 3: kept at it. She tweeted, and she published a piece

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Speaker 3: on her own website called I would rather see my

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Speaker 3: books get pirated than this or why Goodreads and Amazon

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Speaker 3: are becoming dumpster fires? And eventually, after lots and lots

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Speaker 3: of back and forth and raising hell on social media,

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Speaker 3: Amazon did remove the books. But still Amazon is creating

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Speaker 3: a system that forces individuals to have to do an

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Speaker 3: incredible amount of labor just to protect their names and

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Speaker 3: reputations online. And it shouldn't be the job of writers

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Speaker 3: like Jane to keep Amazon's platforms authentic and accurate. And

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Speaker 3: it seems like the only reason that it worked out

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Speaker 3: in Jane's case is because she already has a well

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Speaker 3: respected platform. But what about authors who don't, As she

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Speaker 3: writes in her piece, I'm sure that's in no small

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Speaker 3: part due to my visibility and reputation in the writing

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Speaker 3: and publishing community. What will authors, what smaller profiles do

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Speaker 3: when this happens to them. So first of all, it

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Speaker 3: just seems like so much work on your behalf to

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Speaker 3: have to do to like prove that this is going on.

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Speaker 3: And then also just the idea, like you said, not

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Speaker 3: many people out there trademark their name, and so it's

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Speaker 3: just an incredible burden on the harmed impacted party. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: Amazon is just like, Okay, well, can you prove your

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Speaker 3: case to us? It doesn't seem like the right dynamic

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, at minimum, I think they have to

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Speaker 1: implement probably a new process or procedure for this sort

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Speaker 1: of complaint because it just doesn't fall along the same

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Speaker 1: lines as a traditional copywriter infringement claim.

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Speaker 3: So I know that eventually, luckily, probably because of your

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Speaker 3: platform on social media and like being a loud, respected

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Speaker 3: voice in the space, Amazon did do. I was gonna

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Speaker 3: say the right thing, but I guess really more the

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Speaker 3: reasonable thing and remove these titles from your Goodreads page.

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Speaker 3: But I guess my question is what about writers who

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Speaker 3: maybe don't have the time, the resources, the platform, the

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Speaker 3: energy to go through this incredibly laborious process just to

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Speaker 3: have your Amazon Goodreads page be accurate. Is it creating

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Speaker 3: the system where it's this incredible burden on them, and

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Speaker 3: they maybe wouldn't be able to have success at doing this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is the big, big, big problem

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Speaker 1: that we're now facing because anyone with a name that

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Speaker 1: carries value, if it's a name that can be profited on,

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Speaker 1: which describes a lot of authors who depend on their

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Speaker 1: writing for a living, You're now in this position of

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Speaker 1: having to police use of that name on two sites

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Speaker 1: that do a terrible job of policing or verifying author

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Speaker 1: identities and pretty much have a policy if anything goes

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Speaker 1: as long as it's not blatantly illegal. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know how that system can stand moving forward, which is

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Speaker 1: why I made such a big stink. That said, I

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Speaker 1: do think authors have remedies that are maybe less laborious

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Speaker 1: when they find infringement. So, for example, if you have

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Speaker 1: a traditional publisher, I would certainly be calling them if

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Speaker 1: you have, if you still have a relationship with them,

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Speaker 1: if you have a point of contact, they need to know.

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Speaker 1: If that's not possible, then hopefully you belong to a

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Speaker 1: writer's organization. The Author's Guild here is particularly helpful, and

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Speaker 1: they did see what was happening with my case and

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Speaker 1: we're assisting in the background, so they're very effective at

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Speaker 1: getting really clear problem material taken down. You know, it

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Speaker 1: might not happen overnight, but I would say it would

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Speaker 1: happen in a few days if it's a clear case.

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Speaker 1: So those are some remedies. But as far as having

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Speaker 1: to police your profiles and all of that, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to say other than I think there are

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Speaker 1: some tools out there that like will alert you maybe

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Speaker 1: via email, that oh, this page has seen an update

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Speaker 1: or a change, so at least you get some sort

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Speaker 1: of automated notification. But at least on Amazon dot Com.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't set up an alert that way,

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Speaker 1: but maybe a Google alert or other things that would help, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that you don't have to be visiting these sites

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Speaker 1: every day.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I do think we're in this weird space

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Speaker 3: now where technology is really progress at this fast speed,

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Speaker 3: faster than folks can like make new rules for or

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Speaker 3: like anticipate, and now we're all just stuck with this

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Speaker 3: Internet where the bottom line default assumption is that it's

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Speaker 3: going to be full of scams and fraud and people

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Speaker 3: misusing your name for their own profit. I just feel

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Speaker 3: like we deserve better writers deserve better, like we deserve

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Speaker 3: an Internet landscape that is not trying to screw you

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Speaker 3: at every turn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and some of there are certain companies

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Speaker 1: that I think have the ability and the resources to

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Speaker 1: be helpful. So Amazon being a case in point, they

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Speaker 1: sit at a very important waypoint for all sorts of

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Speaker 1: activity that's both good and bad, and they could do

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Speaker 1: so much better. They could take more responsibility. I think

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Speaker 1: they have a duty of care. Why they don't know

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Speaker 1: wake up to that. It's hard for me to say

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Speaker 1: other than capitalism, but I think they're one of quite

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Speaker 1: a number of companies that I hope that can be

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Speaker 1: pressured to do better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and something about Amazon is because they're such a

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Speaker 3: big player in the space. You know, so goes Amazon,

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Speaker 3: so goes the rest, and so they really a big

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Speaker 3: platform takes a step to make their platform safer better.

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Speaker 3: A lot of other smaller platforms get in line because

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Speaker 3: they really set the tone. And so if Amazon is

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Speaker 3: not setting that tone, they really have this opportunity to

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Speaker 3: be a leader and a good actor and a you know,

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Speaker 3: a force for good of the Internet.

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Speaker 2: But they're just not doing it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more, and I really wish I understood

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Speaker 1: the motivations or lack of motivation, as the case might be,

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Speaker 1: because it certainly doesn't lead to a good customer experience

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Speaker 1: with which they're supposedly concerned about. You know, if people

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Speaker 1: can't trust what they find there, what.

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Speaker 3: Made you suspect that those books were written by AI?

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Speaker 1: I think, like many writers, I've done my own little

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Speaker 1: experiments with chat GPT in particular, and I've used all

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Speaker 1: sorts of vanity prompts because I'm curious what it's capable of.

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Speaker 1: And I know for sure that these models have scraped

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Speaker 1: years of my writing off of my blog, and so,

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Speaker 1: you know, all inputs something like how do I get

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Speaker 1: a book published? Or what does Jane Friedman say about

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Speaker 1: how to get a book club published? Or who is

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Speaker 1: Jane Friedman? And so I've seen the sorts of material

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Speaker 1: it's capable of generating, especially in my category. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very surface level, It's not it has some substance,

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Speaker 1: but if you try to push it, it starts to

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Speaker 1: repeat itself. Forget, it gets more and more generic. So

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Speaker 1: when I saw the opening pages of these fraudulent books,

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Speaker 1: and I read the bio, especially reading the bio. I

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Speaker 1: could tell I'm pretty sure this has been AI generated.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just kind of like bloviating student padded

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Speaker 1: essay material. It's not you know, it's not someone writing

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Speaker 1: down and actually trying to present a cogent, you know,

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Speaker 1: instruction guide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've certainly done what you've just described of,

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Speaker 3: like what can you tell me about Bridget padd as

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Speaker 3: a podcaster? And it's exactly that. It's exactly that I mean,

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Speaker 3: and everybody's done it. But it's one of those things where, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when something was written by a human, even

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Speaker 3: written badly by a human, like yeah, and when something

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Speaker 3: was written by AI, you can.

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Speaker 1: Just tell yeah, yeah. It may not always be that way,

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Speaker 1: but at least today it's painfully obvious.

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Speaker 2: More after a.

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Speaker 3: Quick break, let's get right back into it. Jane's situation

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Speaker 3: is just another example of the let's say, complicated relationship

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Speaker 3: that Amazon has with the publishing industry. Back in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, three of the biggest names in publishing, the

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Speaker 3: Association of American Publishers, the Author's Guild, and the American

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Speaker 3: Booksellers Association, sent a joint letter to US lawmakers to

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Speaker 3: crying Amazon's dominance over publishing and warning that it's threatening

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Speaker 3: the entire industry.

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Speaker 2: Amazon no longer.

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Speaker 3: Competes on a level playing field when it comes to

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Speaker 3: book distribution, but rather owns and manipulates the playing field,

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Speaker 3: leveraging practices across its platform that appear to be well

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Speaker 3: outside of fair and transparent competition. The letter reads, and now,

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Speaker 3: in light of Jane situation, it seems like Amazon could

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Speaker 3: be doing a lot to make it easier for authors

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Speaker 3: to resolve issues that arise from technology like AI, but

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Speaker 3: they're not. In response to Jane situation, an Amazon spokesperson said,

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Speaker 3: we invest heavily to provide a trustworthy shopping experience and

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Speaker 3: protect customers and authors from misuse of our services, But

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Speaker 3: currently Amazon doesn't really have any kind of plan to

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Speaker 3: prevent scam books from proliferating on their platform, which is

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Speaker 3: a real problem. How can Amazon say that they're interested

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Speaker 3: in providing a trustworthy experience if they aren't doing anything

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Speaker 3: to ensure that and instead are just moving that burden

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Speaker 3: onto authors like Jane. What's the relationship between Amazon and

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Speaker 3: the publishing industry right now?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a big question. So it's always been a

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Speaker 1: frenemy situation. Publishers have generally not been that thrilled with

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Speaker 1: Amazon's dominance, and I would say, unfortunately, it's about I

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Speaker 1: want to say, around sixty percent of books now, regardless

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Speaker 1: of format, are now sold through Amazon. So despite them

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Speaker 1: not always you know, being on the same side of

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Speaker 1: Amazon in terms of their practices, they also can't necessarily

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Speaker 1: afford to piss off Amazon either, So it's just a

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Speaker 1: it's a very tortured relationship with the self published author community.

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Speaker 1: That's yet another side of the story where initially self

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Speaker 1: published authors kind of saw Amazon as a savior figure

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Speaker 1: might be going a little far, but finally opening up

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Speaker 1: paths to a sustainable career without having to rely on

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Speaker 1: the gatekeepers of traditional publishing. And so many fabulous author

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Speaker 1: careers have been launched because of Amazon services, and they

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Speaker 1: do provide something that's super valuable. However, as time has

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Speaker 1: gone on, I think everyone's realizing the devil's bargain that's

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Speaker 1: been struck here and how Amazon at any time can

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Speaker 1: change the rules to press earnings make it so you

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Speaker 1: have to advertise in order to get your books noticed

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Speaker 1: at all. So it's I think everyone at this point

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Speaker 1: today is looking to not have all of their eggs

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Speaker 1: in the Amazon basket and try to strengthen their careers

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Speaker 1: so that if Amazon does change something in a dramatic

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Speaker 1: way that makes people unhappy, they still have a career.

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Speaker 3: That is something I always tell folks about navigating this

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Speaker 3: weird tech time of ours, is like, do not put

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Speaker 3: all of your eggs in one digital basket, because you

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Speaker 3: never know what might change. You know, Bezos can make

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Speaker 3: up tomorrow and be like, no, it's this, It's been that,

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Speaker 3: but now it's this, and your whole thing could be

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Speaker 3: could be threatened.

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Speaker 2: So really sad. Spread things around.

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Speaker 3: Have your own platforms that you own that you can say,

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Speaker 3: you know, you'll be able to invest in if something changes.

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Speaker 3: But it just I think that's good advice, But it

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Speaker 3: makes me sad that that's advice that folks like you

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Speaker 3: have to give creatives.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's become more and more essential over time,

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Speaker 1: and you know, if anyone doesn't grasp it. Just looking

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Speaker 1: at what's happened with Twitter, it is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: exhibit A for what happens if you rely too much

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Speaker 1: on a single platform. So yeah, I've I want to

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Speaker 1: say that from the beginning I've always been about diversifying,

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Speaker 1: but I think today people are really listening to that message.

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Speaker 2: What do you think I.

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Speaker 3: Think is at stake if Amazon just continues to kind

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Speaker 3: of not hold up their end of the of the

438
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 3: bargain on responsibility, If we're keeping platforms accurate, you know,

439
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: with accurate information and accurate titles and stuff on there, like,

440
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: what's at stake for the industry?

441
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: Well, fortunately, I think there are chinks in Amazon's armor.

442
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: I do think I've noticed a definite tide change in

443
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: how people think about Amazon and shopping at Amazon. I'm

444
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: looking at this from the consumer side first, but I

445
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: have seen so many people shift their purchasing habits to

446
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: places like Bookshop, which is what people call the virtuous

447
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: alternative divine from Amazon, at least on the book side.

448
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: And so you know, when and when I went through

449
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: this myself on social media, a lot of people said, well,

450
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: that's it, I'm never buying from Amazon again. You know,

451
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: these were authors, so just people, I think, you know,

452
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: the final straw has occurred for a lot of people

453
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: over the last few years, and that has to hurt.

454
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: I would expect Amazon, the negative publicity they get from

455
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: things happening and publishing or from their marketplace where there's

456
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: a lot of knockoffs, counterfeits. I think it has an effect.

457
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: Publishing is in a fortunate position at this moment in

458
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: time because they're starting to see the potential for reaching

459
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: people that's more organic, that's more community driven, that's not

460
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: reliant on Amazon. And here I'm thinking of book talk,

461
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: so you know that, of course, there are some problems

462
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: associated with that as well. I would aid to see

463
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: publishers now just lean on TikTok to solve all their problems.

464
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: But I think certainly over the last five years, in particular,

465
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: the biggest publishers have been more serious about establishing direct

466
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: to consumer relationships, whether that's through email, newsletters, social media,

467
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: or other efforts. And certainly small and independent publishers they

468
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: actually had some of their best performance during the pandemic

469
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: when people were more conscious of why don't we buy

470
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: direct from the publisher? They probably need our help. Let's

471
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: support the things that we believe in. Let's support the

472
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: companies that share our values.

473
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: That's really good to see.

474
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: And I have to say, like I am right there

475
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: with you with the problems around book talk, but I

476
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: genuinely do feel like I have never felt like I

477
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: was more part of an engaged community of like minded

478
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 3: readers than with book Talk. Like I know, it definitely

479
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 3: has its problems, which maybe we'll do another episode on that,

480
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: but you know, I like to read thriller books, and

481
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: you know, I have gotten connected with so many different

482
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: authors and titles that I would have never found otherwise.

483
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I think that.

484
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: Something about what you're saying, it feels like a double

485
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 3: edged sword when it comes to tech right now, that

486
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: there are all these threats and scams and liabilities, but

487
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 3: also all of these really exciting ways to use technology

488
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: for readers and authors and publishers to find each other

489
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: and connect in these new ways that are also kind

490
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: of exciting.

491
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

492
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: I mean, despite everything that's happened to me and the

493
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: last week or so, I still remain fairly optimistic. I

494
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: think that despite some of these scary things that are happening,

495
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: I think things the ship will right itself. I don't

496
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: think we're I don't think we're headed towards total dystopia yet.

497
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: And there's the so called creator economy too, has opened

498
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: up a lot of options for writers and all types

499
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: of creative people to figure out the business model that

500
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: fits them, so no one has to be reliant on

501
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: Amazon or a publishing company or a TikTok. I think

502
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: there are lots of ways to go about this. There's

503
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: a lot of freedom.

504
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: As all of this was happening to Jane, another AI

505
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: firestorm was brewing. A computer scientist and computational linguist named

506
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: Benji Smith was taking a lot of heat from writers

507
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: on Twitter for his platform prose Craft, a platform that

508
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: he built quote dedicated to the linguistic analysis of literature

509
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: where basically twenty five thousand books were mined, maybe from

510
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: pirated sources online to train machine learning algorithms to recognize

511
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: which kinds of words can be used and which kinds

512
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: of contexts. And authors were pissed. They were pissed that

513
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: Benji used their books without permission or consent. Benji apologized

514
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: and took the entire platform down. Jane says that it

515
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: makes sense that authors were upset, especially out of time

516
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: and being in the creative fields feels so fraud and threatened.

517
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: But Jane wonders if this was a distraction from some

518
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: of the bigger issues in the space. I have to

519
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: ask because the situation that you had with Amazon was

520
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 3: happening against the backdrop of that prose craft mess. Like,

521
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: I saw that from beginning to end, and I thought

522
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: all those writers rightfully being like, hey, you can't just

523
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: take our books to train your AI, Like what are

524
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: you doing?

525
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: What do you think that? First of all, what did

526
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: you think about that? As a as somebody who knows

527
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: the space very well?

528
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is where my views tend to diverge

529
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: from the average author. I tend to stay pretty calm

530
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: and rational and look at is there actual harm occurring here,

531
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: and who's behind it? And what are their motivations? And

532
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: how far did this reach? And like, because I know

533
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: how writers can like jump to fear, anxiety and outrage

534
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: very quickly, especially right now with the whole AI situation,

535
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: everyone is just like on a knife's edge. So it

536
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: took me a little while to catch up with that situation.

537
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: Because you were going through your own situation, that's right.

538
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: But when I did, what I saw was a fairly

539
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: benign project, like a linguistic analysis, a text and data

540
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: mining thing. And yeah, sure, he scooped up a lot

541
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: of books that looks like they were from pirate sites.

542
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if he did that intentionally or if

543
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: he kind of like you know, turned the other way

544
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: when that when his crawler scooped up these books. But

545
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: I don't, like, I just can't ascribe malicious intentions to

546
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: this guy. And he's just a guy, Like he's not Amazon, right,

547
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: So I think there are like I look at situations

548
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: differently depending on who has the power. And so I

549
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: saw author. I saw how Authors really acted swiftly got

550
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: him to take the site down, and I think the

551
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: fact he took it down so quickly indicates he what

552
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: his intentions were. He didn't want to upset people, so

553
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: when the whole thing came down, Authors got to claim

554
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: a huge victory. But what I saw was a distraction

555
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: from what the real problems are. This wasn't an AI tool.

556
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess sure he could have somehow profited

557
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: off that data set, maybe like who knows if he

558
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: would have if he could have, And so maybe it

559
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: was right for that to just be nipped in the

560
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: bud right away. But I just think they're bigger fish

561
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: to fry here. And I'm also not a fan of

562
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: like piling on someone like that in a way that

563
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: felt just maybe a little mean spirited. And the other

564
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: thing is that authors don't have the strongest grasp of

565
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: copyright law, what their rights are, what others rights might be.

566
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: And as someone who's followed a lot of legal cases

567
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: surrounding copyright and fair use, especially, there's a really monumental case,

568
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: the Google Books scanning case that was decided some years ago.

569
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: It took a long time to be decided, but Google

570
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: scanned millions of books in partnership with libraries. The author's

571
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: guild brought a lawsuit against this to prevent it, but

572
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: Google ended up winning. It was even though it was

573
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: ingesting all of these works without compensation to the author,

574
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: the use was considered transformative and permissible under the law.

575
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: So the books remain scanned. You can still, you know,

576
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: you can go to Google Books and get all sorts

577
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: of information from that data set. And I think that

578
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: was the correct outcome. Not all authors agree with me,

579
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: but I think it was the correct outcome. So this,

580
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: to me, prosecraft seemed like this text and data mining

581
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: project that had pretty low potential harm.

582
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 3: I was like surprised to see how big the reaction was,

583
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: and some of the authors were like you will never

584
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: like it was a lot of big reactions.

585
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: I'll just say that, yes, big, very big.

586
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: It seemed to me the point of prosecraft was to

587
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: for potential author to be able to glean information about

588
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: books to help themselves as authors.

589
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: So if I know that like.

590
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 3: X novel that I'm trying to write a similar novel

591
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 3: to uses passive voice x percent of the time, I

592
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 3: guess my question is is.

593
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: That useful information for a potential author?

594
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 3: That part of me is like, is this person taking

595
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: the books and minings up totally?

596
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 2: Ask good, good question.

597
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: But in addition to that, is this person trying to

598
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,959
Speaker 3: sell potential authors on something that maybe they don't really

599
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: need and try to convince them like, oh, this is

600
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: going to be the magic bullet that makes your writing

601
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 3: a success. And maybe kind of praying on the need

602
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: that potential authors might have for a tool that they're

603
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 3: being told is going to be the thing that makes

604
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: them successful.

605
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure if I'm asking that in a

606
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: way that makes sense. No, I think I understand what

607
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: you're saying. A lot he got criticized a lot for

608
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: the sort of data, the usefulness of the data that

609
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: he was presenting got I mean, people were so harsh

610
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: about his the passive voice active voice thing.

611
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 4: You know.

612
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: I have a very personal reaction to that, which is

613
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: I was once married to a PhD in computer science,

614
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: and he approached the world in a very different way

615
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: than I did. And so knowing that this guy, Benji

616
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: Smith is a computer scientist and on top of that,

617
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: a linguist like interested in linguistic analysis, to me, he

618
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: was just nerding out.

619
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 4: You know.

620
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, it might have only been of interest to him,

621
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: and that's okay. I don't necessarily think anything that he

622
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: was doing was of real value to the average writer,

623
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: but it was interesting to him, Okay.

624
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of that is easily lost

625
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: in our conversations online, especially conversations of communities that don't

626
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 3: always feel heard. Right, if you're someone trying to break

627
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 3: into publishing, I could imagine that that is a dam

628
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: where it's easy to feel like your voice is just

629
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: lost all the time and that you're constantly pushing up

630
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: an uphill struggle. And so I wonder if that played

631
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: into some of the big reactions of like, these are

632
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: a community.

633
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: Of people who feel unheard a lot.

634
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. Writers feel vulnerable,

635
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: like they're getting the short end of the stick, that

636
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: they're under attack, that everyone's trying to take away the

637
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: value that they offer the world, and so like from

638
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: a psychological perspective or from our the social cultural political

639
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: moment we're in right now, I totally get it, very

640
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: predictable outcome, but I still wish that people could just

641
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: take a breath and you know, apply more critical thinking.

642
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 3: How do you stay so grounded, Like in a space

643
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: at a time where it feels like there are technology

644
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: enabled threats to the industry, how do you stay so pragmatic,

645
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 3: so clear eyed, so grounded.

646
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: Some of it's just probably inherent in my nature, but

647
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: also having been in the same industry now for going

648
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: on almost three decades, like I do feel like I've

649
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: kind of seen it all now. I'm there are surprises,

650
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: there's no question, But I've spoken to so many writers

651
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: over the years, I've spoken at so many conferences, seeing

652
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: every kind of perspective and outrage, and so it's I

653
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: I feel like I can step back from it all

654
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: and see just the patterning. It's all just patterns and

655
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: a lot of things, a lot of the same dynamics

656
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: just repeat themselves again and again.

657
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've talked to a lot of like technologists and

658
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: AI ethics folks, and they say, most of them have

659
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: said some version of what you've just said, that it

660
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 3: actually benefits people who make AI when we sort of

661
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: doom and gloom and catastrophe catastropsize that's the right word, catastrophize.

662
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: Around things like AI.

663
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 3: That like, that's what they want us to be saying,

664
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: And that there have been hype cycles where different kinds

665
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: of technology we're going to change certain industries, decimate certain industries,

666
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: and those things didn't always come to fruition. So recognize

667
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 3: that pattern, and rather than following in that pattern again

668
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 3: and again and again, stop and ask, like, am I

669
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 3: actually amplifying a hype cycle that we don't actually know

670
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,959
Speaker 3: is going to shift this industry the way it's telling

671
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: us the way it's telling us it will.

672
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely. There's a wonderful project. I think it started as

673
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: a podcast and it's now just a website called The

674
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: Pessimist's Archive that really I think introduces it really shows

675
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: this concept and action over many, many decades, and it

676
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: will dig up old articles like from one hundred two

677
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: hundred years ago about how this or that technology is

678
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: going to destroy everything that's good. And I did a

679
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: little bit of the of my own research too, inspired

680
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: by what they do, to look up what were writers

681
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: saying about word processing, you know, like when it became

682
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: possible for basically anyone to start writing and typing and

683
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: doing their own thing or with desktop publishing. I went

684
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: to the New York Times specifically to see what was

685
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: the reaction, and there was one person who felt like

686
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: women would no longer have jobs as a result of

687
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: word processing, because who you know, if everyone was typing

688
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: their own stuff, what would women have left to do?

689
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: Jade, I have to tell you, like, this is not

690
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 3: at all the perspective I thought you were going to have.

691
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 3: It is so refreshing, it like, it is just really

692
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: refreshing to hear someone be like, let's not all like

693
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: lose it over this just yet. You know, let's take

694
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 3: a step back and really do some comparison about how

695
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: we talked about things before. There's so many insights from

696
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: history that we can that we can find the way

697
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 3: that we've talked about emerging technology. And I'm just happy

698
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 3: that someone who is such a voice in the space

699
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 3: is doing that as opposed to sort of jumping on

700
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: the bandwagon of like completely catastrophizing online.

701
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: Right right, thank you. I I this situation that happened

702
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: this week was very unusual because prior to this, I've

703
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: always been fairly artificial intelligence neutral or generative AI neutral,

704
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: and I've gotten taken to task for that by people

705
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: in my community. They think that I am promoting harm

706
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: or a dangerous technology, and I respect their feelings, like,

707
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say nothing bad is going to

708
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: happen as a result. Obviously bad things are going to happen.

709
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: And I had someone actually get in touch with me

710
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: a second time after taking me to task when she

711
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: saw the news cycle. She said, now, have you changed

712
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: your mind? And I said, no, no, I haven't. I'm

713
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: still on the same page as before.

714
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 3: Well, are there guardrails that you would like to see

715
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 3: platforms like Amazon and goodreaths take to make to try

716
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 3: to keep the harm to a minimum when it comes

717
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: to AI and creative.

718
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: Yes, they can do so much better, and that's really

719
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: why I raise the flag. They can do better, they

720
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: must do better, and why they haven't is beyond me.

721
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: I really I'm not so cynical to say, oh, it's

722
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: just about profits. I think this harms them in the

723
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: long run too, So yes, and I would like for

724
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: them to be respect and transparency from all of the

725
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: companies that are putting forth this technology, whether it's open

726
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: AI or Microsoft or Google. I think authors deserve to

727
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: know if their works have been used in the training

728
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: of these moms. I think they should have the right

729
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: to opt out. Like, I believe in moral rights for authors,

730
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: and I understand why they're upset because they're not getting

731
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: really access to those moral rights in this situation. So

732
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: I hope to see that come to pass. I believe

733
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: in more legislation around AI. I hope it doesn't take

734
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: too much longer. But I don't think we should just

735
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: be shutting the whole thing down.

736
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: What do you think is next for the publishing industry.

737
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: Well, what's so fascinating, at least from my industry perch,

738
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: is watching publishers navigate this in a way that doesn't

739
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: upset the author core. So they're definitely looking at these

740
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: tools as ways to be better marketers and promoters. Because

741
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: publishing companies marketing departments are desperately understaffed, they have so

742
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: little money and resource to promote the books they publish,

743
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: So I think they're looking at AI as a way

744
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: to immediately address that situation. And Penguin Random House, the

745
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: biggest of the publishers, already has an AI person on staff,

746
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: someone who's like a computer scientist type who's looking at

747
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: how to use this in a responsible way. And Penguin

748
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: Random House is also setting up their own internal models,

749
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, so they're not feeding the general models. But

750
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: you know, authors are starting to ask for contractual protections.

751
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: You know, they're asking publishers, I want you to promise

752
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: you're not going to train my work on AI. I

753
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: want you to make these other promises too. Some publishers

754
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: have been very willing to put that kind of language

755
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: in the contract, and others aren't. So I am a

756
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: little bit worried that. You know, the biggest five publishers

757
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: in the United States have kind of worked authors into

758
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: a corner on other issues, like it's really hard to

759
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: sell a book today without also selling the ebook rights

760
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: and the audiobook rights. It's kind of it's it's an

761
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: all or nothing sort of situation. Same with ebook royalties.

762
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: You can't really go shape those even with a great

763
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: literary agent. So I'm really concerned that if all of

764
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: these big publishers kind of they're not supposed to collude,

765
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: of course, but if they somehow or to unilaterally come

766
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: to the same conclusion, I would feel bad. I don't

767
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: think it would be right for authors to feel like

768
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: they have to give up certain rights in order to

769
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: have a decent publisher if that's what they want.

770
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 3: Well, that's a great segue to my one of my

771
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: last questions, which is that you've been giving advice to

772
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: like generations of writers. Where can folks find your advice?

773
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: Where can folks connect with you? What's next for Jane?

774
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the best place is my author website, that's Janefriedman

775
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: dot com. I do have a range of newsletters, both

776
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: free and paid, that people can subscribe to, and then

777
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: a blog which can be delivered via email as well.

778
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: So those are the best places to start.

779
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 3: Is there anything that I did not ask that you

780
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: want to make sure it gets included in this conversation?

781
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: I don't think. So. That was really thorough and great

782
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: questions to thank.

783
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 3: You, except for the first one I got you confused

784
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 3: with another Jane Freed, Well, what's it like? Having like

785
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 3: another another like prominent person in the space with your

786
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 3: same name, and then be trying to fight with Amazon

787
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: about having I know, like it's just a head fuck

788
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: a little bit.

789
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: It is, it is.

790
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: I get the other Jane's emails frequently. Actually, when I

791
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: was interviewed by the BBC a few days ago, they

792
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: introduced me as the CEO of HarperCollins, and I have

793
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: to wonder, like, on her end, I've actually met her

794
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: and I've interviewed her and it was delightful. I have

795
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: to wonder on her end if if she finds it

796
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: as humorous as I do, or if if she's just

797
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: supremely annoyed.

798
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 3: Well, I'll have to get her on and then give

799
00:45:49,600 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 3: her your bio. Yes, got a story about an interesting

800
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 3: thing in tech, or just want to say hi? You

801
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 3: can reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You

802
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 3: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tenggody dot com.

803
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 3: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

804
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: me Bridget tod It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

805
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

806
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.

807
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 3: I'm your host, bridget Tood. If you want to help

808
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: us grow, rate and review.

809
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts.

810
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

811
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts