1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. As a happiness expert, I'm used to speaking pretty 2 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:27,476 Speaker 1: openly about my own wellbeing. I often feel questions about 3 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:30,876 Speaker 1: my mental health from journalists, fellow podcast hosts, and fans 4 00:00:30,996 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: just like you. I'm happy to share the things that 5 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:36,076 Speaker 1: I use to improve my well being. But there is 6 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,156 Speaker 1: one comment I sometimes get in conversations like these that 7 00:00:39,236 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 1: does bother me a bit. Laurie. Some interviewer will say, 8 00:00:42,996 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: I bet you never struggle when it comes to improving 9 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 1: your own wellbeing. I guess, is my usual answer. But 10 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 1: that's not strictly true. So it's time to come clean 11 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: on this one. You see. I am an expert in 12 00:00:56,756 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 1: positive psychology, and over the last few years, I have 13 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:02,476 Speaker 1: made a lot of behavioral and mindset changes to improve 14 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:06,156 Speaker 1: my own happiness. But there are still many many things 15 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:09,436 Speaker 1: that I struggle with. Just ask the people who know 16 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:09,996 Speaker 1: me best. 17 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 2: I think it's a really bad idea to talk about 18 00:01:12,316 --> 00:01:12,676 Speaker 2: this stuff. 19 00:01:12,876 --> 00:01:15,956 Speaker 1: Why because you think I'm really bad at happiness? 20 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 2: No, I think it's I think you put yourself under 21 00:01:18,196 --> 00:01:21,116 Speaker 2: under so much more pressure and feel so much worse 22 00:01:21,116 --> 00:01:22,076 Speaker 2: about it than other people. 23 00:01:22,276 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: This is Happiness Lab co writer and producer Ryan Dilly. 24 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: You don't get to hear Ryan's voice a lot on 25 00:01:27,396 --> 00:01:29,316 Speaker 1: the show, but he's the brains behind a lot of 26 00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: the stuff you hear on this podcast. 27 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 2: I've learned so much about happiness from doing this show, 28 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 2: and I've tried to put it into practice, But like, 29 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:38,676 Speaker 2: I'm much nicer to myself about it than you are. 30 00:01:38,676 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you think that you have to 31 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:43,156 Speaker 2: be better than anybody else of this because you're the teacher, 32 00:01:43,196 --> 00:01:45,556 Speaker 2: and it's just a high bar for yourself. 33 00:01:46,116 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 1: But Ryan's not just my partner in all things happiness lab. 34 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 1: He's also one of my oldest and dearest friends. 35 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 2: Isn't how we met quite a boring story. We met 36 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:55,356 Speaker 2: through a friend of a friend. 37 00:01:55,716 --> 00:01:58,276 Speaker 1: I know that we've known each other for like twenty 38 00:01:58,916 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 1: six years. 39 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:01,796 Speaker 2: More than half my life, and that's telling it how 40 00:02:01,836 --> 00:02:02,476 Speaker 2: old I am now. 41 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:06,756 Speaker 1: And that means he understands my happiness struggles very very well, 42 00:02:06,876 --> 00:02:09,956 Speaker 1: because as my good friend and podcast works back, he 43 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:11,516 Speaker 1: often has to put up with them. 44 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:12,996 Speaker 2: You could have put on mind too. 45 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:15,796 Speaker 1: When I beat myself up about some small mistake on 46 00:02:15,836 --> 00:02:18,356 Speaker 1: the show or get sad about a negative review, Ryan 47 00:02:18,396 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: gets stuck managing my emotional slump when I ignore pretty 48 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: much everything I know about the importance of time, affluence, 49 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:27,276 Speaker 1: and totally overschedule myself. Ryan puts up with my growing 50 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 1: sense of overwhelm and when my stress levels hit the 51 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 1: red zone because I haven't put into practice nearly any 52 00:02:32,596 --> 00:02:34,436 Speaker 1: of the research I talk to you about on the show. 53 00:02:34,876 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 1: Ryan deals with the consequences. 54 00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:38,556 Speaker 2: You've got such a busy life and you've got so 55 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:40,996 Speaker 2: much stuff going on, and so many people like look 56 00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 2: to you as a kind of example, and that must 57 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 2: be really, really hard. 58 00:02:44,836 --> 00:02:47,276 Speaker 1: I really want to get better about practicing what I preach. 59 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:49,956 Speaker 1: So in this new season of The Happiness Lab, things 60 00:02:50,036 --> 00:02:52,796 Speaker 1: are going to get personal. Over the next few episodes, 61 00:02:52,876 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 1: I'll be exploring the happiness challenges that I struggle with 62 00:02:55,716 --> 00:03:00,236 Speaker 1: the most, things like navigating stress and overwork, dealing with boredom, 63 00:03:00,636 --> 00:03:03,636 Speaker 1: and even facing my own mortality. This is for a 64 00:03:03,676 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 1: whole episode about is it a natophobia. 65 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:09,076 Speaker 3: Oh, fanatophobiaobia? 66 00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:12,596 Speaker 1: Because I have really terrible an antiphobia. I'm like really 67 00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:15,756 Speaker 1: spooked about death. And in this first episode, I'll be 68 00:03:15,836 --> 00:03:19,476 Speaker 1: exploring something that bothers Ryan a lot, my habit of 69 00:03:19,516 --> 00:03:23,636 Speaker 1: continuously beating myself up about well pretty much everything. 70 00:03:24,076 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 2: I mean, you have to do everything perfectly. Everythden's going 71 00:03:27,156 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 2: to be ten out of ten with you. Sometimes it's 72 00:03:29,076 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 2: not possible, but it's so hard to watch. You're horrible 73 00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:33,356 Speaker 2: to yourself sometimes. 74 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 1: Ryan's right here. I hold myself to a very high standard, 75 00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: and I constantly worry about whether I'm doing a good 76 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: enough job, whether that's in my podcasting, my teaching, my research, 77 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:48,276 Speaker 1: my social life, everything. Really, I hate doing anything that 78 00:03:48,316 --> 00:03:51,076 Speaker 1: I'm not immediately good at, and I often wind up 79 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:55,036 Speaker 1: feeling paralyzed whenever I mess something up. I know full 80 00:03:55,076 --> 00:03:57,756 Speaker 1: well that these harsh standards aren't good for my performance 81 00:03:57,996 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 1: or my well being. So in this episode, I'll explore 82 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: how perfectionists like me can fight the fear of not 83 00:04:03,636 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: being good enough. Is there a way we can drop 84 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 1: all the impossible standards and quit beating ourselves up so much? 85 00:04:12,796 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to 86 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What 87 00:04:17,436 --> 00:04:19,796 Speaker 1: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away 88 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:22,596 Speaker 1: from what will really make us happy. The good news 89 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 1: is that understanding the science of the mind can point 90 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:27,756 Speaker 1: us all back in the right direction. You're listening to 91 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santis. 92 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:38,636 Speaker 4: My name's Thomas Current. I'm an associate professor at the 93 00:04:38,676 --> 00:04:40,076 Speaker 4: London School of Economics. 94 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: Scientists often joke that all researches mesearch, and I'm wondering 95 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,596 Speaker 1: if this is something that applies in your case to 96 00:04:45,636 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 1: your study of perfectionism. 97 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I am a perfectionist and I have been for 98 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,636 Speaker 4: a long time and someone I struggled with. 99 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 1: In his book The Perfection Trap Embracing the Power of 100 00:04:56,796 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: good Enough, Thomas explores the many misconceptions we have about 101 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:03,716 Speaker 1: our society's favorite flaw, as he calls it, starting with 102 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:06,556 Speaker 1: the idea that only certain people fall prey to it. 103 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 4: We tend to talk in very sort of black and 104 00:05:08,916 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 4: white terms about you know you are you aren't a perfectionist, 105 00:05:12,396 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 4: And the truth is that most of us, when we 106 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 4: look in the mirror, will see elements of perfectionism. 107 00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: A second misconception is that perfectionism is a single trait 108 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 1: that plays out the same way for everybody. It isn't. 109 00:05:24,156 --> 00:05:27,356 Speaker 1: It has at least three different dimensions, ones that differ 110 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 1: in their severity from person to person. The first is 111 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 1: self oriented perfectionism. These are the high standards that we 112 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 1: impose on ourselves. This is often what we're thinking of 113 00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:40,236 Speaker 1: when we say this, somebody is a perfectionist. But there's 114 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 1: a second part of perfectionism, which is other oriented. Perfectionists 115 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 1: sometimes hold other people to the same insanely high standards 116 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 1: that they expect of themselves. 117 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 4: Like, if I'm going to put myself through the ring 118 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 4: for this high standard or goal or expectation, then you 119 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 4: must have to do that too, because that's only fair. 120 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:02,556 Speaker 1: But Thomas says there's a final dimension of perfectionism that 121 00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: psychologically speaking, is the most insidious, That is socially prescribed perfectionism. 122 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:11,756 Speaker 1: We assume other people expect us to be perfect. 123 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:15,116 Speaker 4: Yes, perfectionists have exceptionally high standards, we know that, but 124 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:17,316 Speaker 4: that's only part of the story because what we really 125 00:06:17,356 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 4: need to unpack is why they're doing that. And why 126 00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:23,196 Speaker 4: they're doing that is to meet the validation and approval 127 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 4: of other people whom they think are viewing them harshly 128 00:06:26,956 --> 00:06:29,276 Speaker 4: and watching them for every little slip up and mistake. 129 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 1: I know just how crappy this dimension of perfectionism feels 130 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:36,156 Speaker 1: that constant worry that the people around you are judging 131 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: not just your work but also your worth, that sense 132 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 1: that I need to monitor what people think of my 133 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:44,836 Speaker 1: podcast or my research or my looks. That uneasiness of 134 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:49,076 Speaker 1: always being on the defensive, that feeling really sucks. But 135 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: where do perfectionist beliefs like these come from? Thomas says 136 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 1: the answer can be summed up in just one word, fear. 137 00:06:56,636 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 4: The reason why we feel self conscious as perfectionists is 138 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,916 Speaker 4: because we're so worried about what other people think, and 139 00:07:02,996 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 4: if we revealed too much of ourselves then we might 140 00:07:06,436 --> 00:07:08,196 Speaker 4: slip up, or we might show a chink in the 141 00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 4: armory is reflection upon us as a person that we're 142 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:13,476 Speaker 4: not good enough, that we're not perfect enough, and that 143 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:16,236 Speaker 4: in some way we should have been or could have 144 00:07:16,276 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 4: been more. 145 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: This is one reason Thomas thinks of perfectionism as less 146 00:07:20,116 --> 00:07:24,156 Speaker 1: of a personality trait and more of an anxiety management strategy. 147 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 1: Perfectionists set themselves incredibly high standards because they're worried if 148 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:32,516 Speaker 1: they don't, someone will spot all they're hidden inner defects, 149 00:07:33,076 --> 00:07:37,036 Speaker 1: and as I unfortunately know very well, when perfectionists actually 150 00:07:37,076 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: do screw up, that internal anxiety goes into overdrive. 151 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 4: So they feel a lot of shame and embarrassment, painful 152 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 4: shame and embarrassment, and intense shame and embarrassment, and the 153 00:07:47,556 --> 00:07:51,796 Speaker 4: trepidation is so fierce sometimes that they can be overwhelmed 154 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 4: by anxiety. And this is very common in perfectionists. They 155 00:07:55,996 --> 00:08:00,156 Speaker 4: are very self critical, very harsh on themselves when things 156 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 4: have gone wrong, because again, it goes back to that 157 00:08:02,436 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 4: core deficit belief inside deep down, they know they're imperfect. 158 00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:10,516 Speaker 1: But if being a perfectionist feel so miserable, why don't 159 00:08:10,516 --> 00:08:12,916 Speaker 1: people set more realistic standards for themselves. 160 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 4: People who struggle with perfectionism don't see perfectionism the problem. 161 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 4: Quite the opposite. Actually, they see perfectionism as the one 162 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:22,996 Speaker 4: thing that's holding them up in the world, whereas everything 163 00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:26,116 Speaker 4: and all around them seems to be collapsing. The challenge 164 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 4: there is to bring people around to the awareness that 165 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 4: it is actually the perfectionism that is the root of 166 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 4: the problem. It's something that's causing profound distress. 167 00:08:35,556 --> 00:08:38,156 Speaker 1: I've seen the consequences of this distress, not just in 168 00:08:38,196 --> 00:08:41,276 Speaker 1: my own life, but also in the academic community around me. 169 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:44,156 Speaker 1: I can be pretty harsh on myself, but I'm not 170 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 1: half as mean as my Yale students are to themselves. 171 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:51,676 Speaker 1: They're hyper ambitious, hyper anxious, and deeply self critical. They 172 00:08:51,716 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: beat themselves up about not finding the perfect relationship or 173 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: an amazing internship, or getting top grades. I mean, I've 174 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 1: watched pupils have panic attacks after earning a single B 175 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 1: plus on some random quiz. It's heartbreaking to see that pain. 176 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:07,556 Speaker 1: And my experience at Yale isn't unique. 177 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:09,516 Speaker 4: I was getting a lot of students come in for 178 00:09:09,556 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 4: help on their coursework or their grades or how to improve. 179 00:09:13,196 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 4: That's quite routine, but more and more as seeing students 180 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 4: come with real profound struggles that quite transparently came from 181 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 4: self imposed pressures that they were placing on themselves. So 182 00:09:23,476 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 4: that was really the spark for me to try to understand, all, 183 00:09:26,956 --> 00:09:29,916 Speaker 4: is this something that's increasing? Because I suspect from what 184 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:32,596 Speaker 4: I can see that it might be, but we don't 185 00:09:32,596 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 4: have any data. 186 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:33,756 Speaker 2: We don't know. 187 00:09:34,516 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 1: Thomas tracked down every paper published since the eighties in 188 00:09:37,756 --> 00:09:40,436 Speaker 1: which young people had filled out a survey on perfectionism, 189 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:44,316 Speaker 1: more than forty thousand data points across three countries to 190 00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 1: see if rates had increased, and he found that they 191 00:09:47,516 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: very much. 192 00:09:47,996 --> 00:09:49,916 Speaker 2: Had, and that's cause for concern. 193 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:53,156 Speaker 1: The average level of perfectionism in the young shot up 194 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 1: thirty three percent since nineteen eighty nine. But there's one 195 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:59,716 Speaker 1: form of perfectionism that's skyrocketing even more than the others. 196 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:03,116 Speaker 4: It's that social element of perfectionism that's really taking off 197 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:06,276 Speaker 4: among young people. They really feel high precious to be 198 00:10:06,316 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 4: perfect from the outside world. 199 00:10:08,476 --> 00:10:12,596 Speaker 1: So what's pausing this. Well, culprits like Instagram and Facebook 200 00:10:12,716 --> 00:10:13,476 Speaker 1: might be to play it. 201 00:10:13,956 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 4: People within social media see images are perfection all around them. 202 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 4: They take those images at face value and feel themselves 203 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 4: to be inferior. And those expectations, in turn, are being 204 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:29,436 Speaker 4: internalized by young people's perfectionistic pressures, and it's highly pressurized, 205 00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 4: very insecure in it never really stops. 206 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 1: When Thomas first published his findings in twenty nineteen, he 207 00:10:36,036 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 1: was taken aback by the sheer level of interest in 208 00:10:38,276 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 1: the topic. 209 00:10:39,236 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 4: I've got the media officer from the university desperately emailing 210 00:10:43,316 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 4: me at twelve o'clock at night with all these requests 211 00:10:46,356 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 4: from the international media. We wanting to know what's happening. 212 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 4: And clearly it struck a nerve. Clearly people feel like 213 00:10:52,996 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 4: perfectionism is something that's becoming much more prevalent in their 214 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 4: own lives and the lives of other people. I think 215 00:10:57,596 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 4: it's something you know as a society we really need 216 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:01,036 Speaker 4: to start grappling. 217 00:11:00,676 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 1: With But how do we all come to grips with it? Well, 218 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:07,596 Speaker 1: we'll start by learning from a recovering perfectionist. 219 00:11:07,876 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 5: My ruthless self careticism was just weighing me down that 220 00:11:11,836 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 5: whole time. It was like these heavy weights tied to 221 00:11:13,796 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 5: my ankle, and if I could learn to release them, 222 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 5: not only would I be just as successful as I was, 223 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:21,756 Speaker 5: I would be even more so because I would be 224 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 5: liberating myself from really like the jail cell that my 225 00:11:26,356 --> 00:11:28,356 Speaker 5: terror of failure was keeping me in. 226 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab continues after the short break, Little Jordana 227 00:11:38,876 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 1: was this totally wacky, free spirit creative. Jordana Confino fondly 228 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 1: remembers the days before her perfectionism too cold. 229 00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:51,876 Speaker 5: I just would spend all of my time making up 230 00:11:51,956 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 5: shows and things like that, and just really living in 231 00:11:54,476 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 5: my own fantastic fantasy universe. 232 00:11:58,116 --> 00:12:00,636 Speaker 1: Little Geordana never gave a second thought to her grades 233 00:12:00,796 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 1: or her academic performance, but all that changed when she 234 00:12:04,156 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 1: turned fourteen. 235 00:12:05,396 --> 00:12:07,756 Speaker 5: My dad actually got really sick, and all of a 236 00:12:07,796 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 5: sudden things started happening that were scary and upsetting, and 237 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 5: lots of people in my family were upset and I 238 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 5: couldn't do anything about it. 239 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 1: But Jordana eventually discovered one thing she could do to 240 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:19,276 Speaker 1: make her family happier. 241 00:12:20,196 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 5: I could come home with these really pristine report cards, 242 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 5: and my parents were excited and happy and relieved, And 243 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:28,676 Speaker 5: that was like what I could do to seemingly make 244 00:12:28,716 --> 00:12:29,396 Speaker 5: things better. 245 00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: In the years that followed, Jordana engrossed herself in her 246 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:35,156 Speaker 1: schoolwork and especially her grades. 247 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 5: As long as I worked hard enough, I could perfect them. 248 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 5: And that was really what I committed to doing. 249 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:44,316 Speaker 1: From the outside, Jordana looked like the picture of the happy, 250 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 1: successful pupil, but on the inside she was a mess. 251 00:12:48,116 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 5: I was so sad, and I was so insecure, and 252 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:55,196 Speaker 5: I was so lonely. And this is because if you 253 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 5: want to get literally perfect grief, you have spend a. 254 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:01,116 Speaker 3: Lot, a lot, a lot of time throwing yourself into it. 255 00:13:01,156 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 5: And it got to this point where my whole identity 256 00:13:04,196 --> 00:13:07,356 Speaker 5: at that point was completely bound up in my ability 257 00:13:07,396 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 5: to perfect this one. And so because my entire feelings 258 00:13:11,396 --> 00:13:13,956 Speaker 5: of self worth run the line, I threw everything into it. 259 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:18,076 Speaker 1: Jordanna graduated valedictorian of her high school class. She nailed 260 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: her college applications and got into her top choice school, 261 00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: Yale University. Her family and friends were thrilled, which was 262 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:28,996 Speaker 1: kind of sad. Jordana's insanely high standards were harming her, 263 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: but her perfectionism was being reinforced and rewarded. In college, 264 00:13:33,516 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 1: Jordana's overwork grew even more extreme. Achieving perfect grades in 265 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 1: the IVY League was much harder than in high school, 266 00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:43,156 Speaker 1: so Jordana spent every waking hour working. 267 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 5: I was the loneliest person on the planet and it 268 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 5: was just so tragically misguided. 269 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 3: I was having no human contact. 270 00:13:50,836 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 5: I didn't go outside for ten days once before final exams. 271 00:13:54,796 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 1: That sense of isolation also pushed Jordana to cast a 272 00:13:57,676 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 1: perfectionist eye on her peers. She grew judge of her 273 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: fellow students, who never seemed to work as hard as 274 00:14:03,476 --> 00:14:03,876 Speaker 1: she did. 275 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:07,436 Speaker 5: My college sophomore year dorm was right across from Ashley's 276 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 5: ice Cream with the famous Yell ice cream place, and 277 00:14:10,196 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 5: I would watch people like going out for ice cream 278 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:15,316 Speaker 5: with their friends on Friday or Saturday night, and I 279 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:18,356 Speaker 5: would just think, like they are so weak, and like 280 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 5: I thought that I was so superior because I was 281 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:24,996 Speaker 5: willing to do the work that they weren't. I must 282 00:14:25,116 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 5: care more, and therefore I would do better. 283 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 1: But yet again, Jordana's harsh standards appeared to be working. 284 00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:35,396 Speaker 1: She graduated top of her class and went on to 285 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:36,316 Speaker 1: Yale Law School. 286 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 5: I mean, if five minutes went by before I was working, 287 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 5: after I woke up in law school, it was like, 288 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:44,676 Speaker 5: you're weak, you're slothsful, you're lazy, you're not good enough. 289 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 5: You're the only one who doesn't deserve to be here. 290 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 5: Everyone's going to find out. 291 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,876 Speaker 1: She then graduated at the top of that class too, 292 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 1: and followed it up by walking in one of the 293 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:56,996 Speaker 1: most prestigious legal clerkships in the land, but she didn't 294 00:14:57,076 --> 00:14:57,796 Speaker 1: enjoy any of it. 295 00:14:58,316 --> 00:15:03,116 Speaker 5: With each additional achievement, I actually grew more and more 296 00:15:03,196 --> 00:15:08,316 Speaker 5: anxious because the second that I approached success or got 297 00:15:08,356 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 5: it all of us and I would panic because then 298 00:15:11,036 --> 00:15:14,076 Speaker 5: the bar was just set higher, and it was an 299 00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 5: even higher bar that I would have to clear in 300 00:15:16,356 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 5: order to not be a disappointment. 301 00:15:19,036 --> 00:15:21,836 Speaker 1: Take for example, the time Jordana got her paper accepted 302 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 1: to the world's top law journal. 303 00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:27,276 Speaker 5: There was not more than one second of actual happiness 304 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 5: or celebration before the panic set in and literally, the 305 00:15:31,916 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 5: thought that went through my mind and I remember this 306 00:15:33,996 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 5: was well, what am I going to do next so 307 00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 5: that they don't call me a one hit wonder? 308 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 1: The constant self criticism made or Dana miserable, but she 309 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,076 Speaker 1: just couldn't bring herself to stop all those skathing critiques. 310 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 5: One of thought that they were fact, and two I 311 00:15:47,676 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 5: thought that they were helping me and those thoughts were 312 00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 5: the things that were driving me to succeed. And that's 313 00:15:53,396 --> 00:15:57,876 Speaker 5: why for so long I was so reluctant to give 314 00:15:57,996 --> 00:15:59,116 Speaker 5: up on those thoughts. 315 00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:02,196 Speaker 1: The constant need to be seen as uber, competent and 316 00:16:02,276 --> 00:16:05,636 Speaker 1: superhuman meant that Jordana put herself forward for any and 317 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:06,996 Speaker 1: all job opportunities. 318 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:10,716 Speaker 5: There are no boundaries for the perfectionist people. Please, aren't 319 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:14,876 Speaker 5: you give every ounce of yourself? And what happens when 320 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 5: you do that is everyone else is thrilled because they're like, great, 321 00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:20,756 Speaker 5: you know, we didn't have time to do all these 322 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:23,436 Speaker 5: things because we have families and other priorities. 323 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:26,076 Speaker 3: But Jordana can do it, and she's she's excited. Look 324 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 3: at her. 325 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:29,316 Speaker 5: She's volunteering. And the more and more you do that, 326 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:33,916 Speaker 5: the more insecure you grow, because you're just convinced that 327 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 5: your value is contingent on you saying yes all the time. 328 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:41,356 Speaker 1: But there were a few things that Jordanna did say 329 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: no to. All the stuff that's essential for work life 330 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: balance and mental health. She neglected social connection and all 331 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: elements of rest and fun. And when she did go 332 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: out to get fresh air or to get exercise, she 333 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 1: still couldn't set her work aside. 334 00:16:55,996 --> 00:16:59,796 Speaker 5: I literally had a laptop tan on my thighs because 335 00:16:59,796 --> 00:17:02,836 Speaker 5: I would let myself go outside but only if I 336 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:05,236 Speaker 5: was doing work. Similarly, I would let myself go to 337 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:08,476 Speaker 5: the gym, but only because I downloaded the notability apps 338 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 5: so that I could documents. 339 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 3: On the treadmill. Like this was my version of work 340 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 3: life balance. 341 00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: You might be amazed to learn that Jordana was in 342 00:17:16,436 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: a relationship throughout this time. Her boyfriend came a very 343 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 1: distant second to her legal work. 344 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 5: He lived two blocks from my apartment, and I saw 345 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:28,876 Speaker 5: him on Saturday nights between like eight pm and eight 346 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:31,956 Speaker 5: am on the next day, and the same on Friday nights. 347 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: Perhaps unsurprisingly, Jordana developed a host of serious health issues 348 00:17:36,476 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 1: once her doctors just couldn't figure out and what her 349 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 1: body was suffering was nothing compared to what was going 350 00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 1: on in her mind. 351 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:48,636 Speaker 5: It just felt really bleak, and I felt really trapped. 352 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:52,876 Speaker 1: One afternoon, while yet again working at home alone, Jordanna 353 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 1: finally realized that she needed some help. 354 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 5: I was just desperate at the time, and I was 355 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:02,716 Speaker 5: googling how to be happy. One of the first things 356 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:06,596 Speaker 5: I found was Gretchen Rubin's book The Happiness Project, and 357 00:18:06,636 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 5: so I read that and she starts referring to this 358 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 5: thing called positive psychology, and I had never heard about 359 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:17,676 Speaker 5: positive psychology before. I remember thinking, I hope this isn't 360 00:18:17,716 --> 00:18:19,516 Speaker 5: one of those things that you have to really believe 361 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,396 Speaker 5: in for it to work. I was so, so, so skeptical, 362 00:18:23,996 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 5: but I was just desperate. 363 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 1: Jordana soon learned about the importance of social connection and 364 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 1: engaging in work that fits with your values, and she 365 00:18:31,836 --> 00:18:34,556 Speaker 1: made some real changes as a result. She left the 366 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:37,796 Speaker 1: stressful law job she didn't enjoy and retrained as a 367 00:18:37,836 --> 00:18:39,796 Speaker 1: wellness specialist to help law students. 368 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 3: But I did not touch the perfectionism at that point. 369 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 5: I did not touch the workaholism at that point, and 370 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 5: I was doing work that actually imbued me with a 371 00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:52,156 Speaker 5: sense of meaning and purpose. I was leaning into my 372 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 5: relationships more so, in that sense, it was better, but 373 00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:58,196 Speaker 5: I was still tearing myself to shreds on the inside. 374 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:01,996 Speaker 1: Ironically, Jordana began spending her days helping law students to 375 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:05,636 Speaker 1: feel happier and fight their self criticism while holding herself 376 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 1: to impossible ideals. 377 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:10,196 Speaker 5: Like how many people go into their job interview and 378 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 5: when you're asked what your weakness is, you go, oh, well, 379 00:19:12,596 --> 00:19:15,676 Speaker 5: I'm a perfectionist. When we say that, because we're proud 380 00:19:15,676 --> 00:19:18,476 Speaker 5: of it, we think that it's a strength. Eventually, someone 381 00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 5: else noticed how hard Jordana was pushing herself. One of 382 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 5: my former bosses called me into her office one day, 383 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:26,996 Speaker 5: and I thought that it was because I wasn't taking 384 00:19:27,196 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 5: enough student appointments. 385 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 3: I was convinced that she was calling in to read 386 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:30,836 Speaker 3: me out. 387 00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:33,316 Speaker 5: I was convinced I wasn't doing enough, and really she 388 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:35,916 Speaker 5: was sitting me down to say, Jordana, are you okay? 389 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:37,916 Speaker 3: You look like you're running yourself ragged. 390 00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:40,956 Speaker 1: Jordana's therapist, it turns out, couldn't have agreed more. 391 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 5: She said, Jordana, if you had a racehorse that had 392 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:49,116 Speaker 5: just completely broken down from injury and exhaustion, would you 393 00:19:49,236 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 5: just keep whipping it to try to get it up 394 00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 5: and to move faster, and I said, of course not, 395 00:19:56,156 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 5: And she said, then why are you doing that to yourself? 396 00:20:00,716 --> 00:20:04,796 Speaker 1: That racehorse analogy was life changing. Jordana finally saw the 397 00:20:04,836 --> 00:20:06,556 Speaker 1: futility of her perfectionism. 398 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 3: It was never just going to stop. 399 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:11,436 Speaker 5: There was a always going to be the next thing 400 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 5: if I didn't do something different, because it always felt 401 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 5: like just clearing one more hurdle would then. 402 00:20:19,156 --> 00:20:21,796 Speaker 3: Free me up to live the life that I wanted. 403 00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:24,196 Speaker 5: And then you know, one hundred and fifty hurdles later, 404 00:20:24,276 --> 00:20:27,316 Speaker 5: you realize, wait a second, maybe that's not going to 405 00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 5: happen unless I do something different. 406 00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:33,116 Speaker 1: So what exactly did she do differently? She'll tell us 407 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:35,196 Speaker 1: when the happiness lab returns in a moment. 408 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 5: I think the problem with perfectionism is that it doesn't 409 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 5: even feel like a choice. 410 00:20:44,796 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 3: It's just the necessary course. 411 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:51,156 Speaker 1: Recovering perfectionist Jordana Confino has spent the last few years 412 00:20:51,236 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 1: learning to reject the exacting standards she judged herself by 413 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:55,196 Speaker 1: for decades. 414 00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:57,796 Speaker 5: And when I say rejected, I don't mean like, oh, yeah, 415 00:20:57,836 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 5: I conquered it and it's gone. I mean I committed 416 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 5: to work back against it every day and not let 417 00:21:03,676 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 5: it drive the car and rule my life. 418 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: Now, a Fordham University law professor and co coach, Jordana 419 00:21:10,196 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 1: helps overachieving professionals who struggle with perfectionism, overachieving professionals just 420 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:18,316 Speaker 1: like me. I'm embarrassed to admit how much of myself 421 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:21,436 Speaker 1: I saw in Jordana's story. I too have a terrible 422 00:21:21,436 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 1: time establishing boundaries and saying no. I spend my days 423 00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 1: teaching my students and podcast listeners to be self compassionate 424 00:21:28,516 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: while privately beating myself up. If Jordana was able to 425 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:35,636 Speaker 1: scale back her harsh standards, maybe there's hope for me too. 426 00:21:35,876 --> 00:21:40,036 Speaker 5: I was so vicious to myself, and I was so 427 00:21:40,156 --> 00:21:43,196 Speaker 5: ruthlessly self critical, and I believed so little that this 428 00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 5: could work. And if it could have that effect for 429 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 5: even someone like me, I truly believe that anyone is 430 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 5: capable of doing this for themselves. 431 00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: So I asked Jordanna, what are the first steps that 432 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 1: a perfectionist like me can take to become kinder to herself? 433 00:21:57,796 --> 00:21:59,796 Speaker 5: If you do a simple thought journal of just what 434 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:01,236 Speaker 5: are the thoughts that are going through my head? What 435 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:03,156 Speaker 5: are the things that I'm saying to myself? For me, 436 00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:05,836 Speaker 5: it would be things like you're not good enough, you're weak, 437 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 5: you're lazy, you're slothful. 438 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:09,076 Speaker 3: Literally, it was so funny. 439 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,156 Speaker 5: Words like gluttonous and slothful would come up from my 440 00:22:12,236 --> 00:22:15,116 Speaker 5: inner critic, and I'm like, swear, I only have heard 441 00:22:15,156 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 5: those words in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in like seventh grade, 442 00:22:18,356 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 5: so it's just hilarious to me that they had such 443 00:22:20,516 --> 00:22:23,196 Speaker 5: an impact on my critic. But you want to recognize 444 00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:25,876 Speaker 5: these phrases. You want to think about what words do 445 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 5: they use, whose voice do they remind you of, so 446 00:22:28,756 --> 00:22:31,116 Speaker 5: that when they come up, you can recognize them and 447 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 5: then make a decision about how to respond to them. 448 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:38,076 Speaker 1: Jordana also uses other creative ways to visualize her perfectionist impulses. 449 00:22:38,436 --> 00:22:41,516 Speaker 5: So I've actually found it even really helpful to draw 450 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,276 Speaker 5: my inner critic. It looks like this little green goblin 451 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 5: that kind of reminds me of the guy from the 452 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 5: Musinex commercials. So now when these thoughts come up, I 453 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 5: imagine this little green goblin on my shoulder like squeaking 454 00:22:54,076 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 5: these things at me, and my inner critic is a 455 00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:59,676 Speaker 5: very squeaky, annoying voice. But that enables me to detach 456 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:01,316 Speaker 5: from the thoughts and separate from them. 457 00:23:01,716 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 1: And once you begin to separate from that goblin voice 458 00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 1: inside you, you can finally start pushing back. You can 459 00:23:07,236 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 1: grab your journal and scribble down some bules to all 460 00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 1: your nasty inner critiques, and when you write those replies down, 461 00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:16,676 Speaker 1: try not to match your critics mean tone. Instead, use 462 00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 1: as compassionate a voice as you can, treating that inner 463 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 1: goblin like a well intentioned but utterly misguided friend. 464 00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 5: Listen, I know what you're trying to do here. You 465 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 5: really really want me to do well. You're trying to help, 466 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:33,276 Speaker 5: but you're not. You don't meet it with criticism or 467 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:36,356 Speaker 5: just rejected outright. You kind of greet it with compassion 468 00:23:36,396 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 5: and say, hey, listen, we're going to try a softer 469 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 5: approach here. 470 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:43,236 Speaker 1: Pushing back on your inner critic is at least initially 471 00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:46,956 Speaker 1: very very hard, especially when it's the only voice you've 472 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 1: listened to for so long. 473 00:23:48,596 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 5: When I first started practicing self compassion, my therapist would say, 474 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:56,276 Speaker 5: talk to yourself as if you were someone who unconditionally 475 00:23:56,316 --> 00:23:58,316 Speaker 5: loves and supports you, And I was like, I don't 476 00:23:58,356 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 5: even know what that feels like. 477 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:03,596 Speaker 1: Jordana had been driven by her punishing perfectionism through school 478 00:24:03,636 --> 00:24:06,436 Speaker 1: and into the workplace. She had to go back decades 479 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:08,876 Speaker 1: into childhood to find a version of herself that was 480 00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 1: free from the need to constantly perform at the highest level, 481 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:14,196 Speaker 1: a version of herself she could be proud of and 482 00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:14,676 Speaker 1: kind to. 483 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 5: And so I picture that little creative, free spirit, Jordana, 484 00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:22,116 Speaker 5: and when I look at her and when I imagine her, 485 00:24:22,516 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 5: I can talk to her in this way, like I 486 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:27,636 Speaker 5: do believe that she is worthy of love for just 487 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:30,396 Speaker 5: being who she is, and if she makes a mistake, 488 00:24:30,476 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 5: it is not because she is a fundamentally unworthy person. 489 00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:36,316 Speaker 5: And that was actually a really good trick for me 490 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 5: to start practicing those different ways of speaking to myself. 491 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: Hardcore perfectionists like Jordana won't find the mental switch from 492 00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: criticism to compassion easy. 493 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:49,916 Speaker 5: I did not believe these thoughts at all. It felt 494 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,636 Speaker 5: so forced and faked and phony. When I took my 495 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 5: you are lazy and I replaced it with you are 496 00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:59,716 Speaker 5: doing great, You can do this compassionate thoughts like that 497 00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:02,636 Speaker 5: they felt like total bogus. But the amazing thing about 498 00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:07,316 Speaker 5: our brains and neuroplasticity is that if you practice thinking 499 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 5: in a way over time, and those new thoughts will 500 00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:16,156 Speaker 5: become stronger, and you'll see them popping up versus plausible 501 00:25:16,356 --> 00:25:21,556 Speaker 5: alternatives to the vicious thoughts, and then eventually they'll just 502 00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 5: pop up as an instinctive thought. 503 00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:27,796 Speaker 1: The next step in perfectionism recovery is to set healthier boundaries. 504 00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:31,556 Speaker 1: That inability to say no to extra work and responsibilities 505 00:25:31,876 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 1: is often rooted in our fears of not being good 506 00:25:33,956 --> 00:25:37,356 Speaker 1: enough and being seen as not being good enough to 507 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 1: fight these people pleasing tendencies, we need to take a good, 508 00:25:40,356 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 1: hard look at what we miss out on when we 509 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:42,996 Speaker 1: just say yes. 510 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:45,876 Speaker 5: I've now recognized that there is a trade off for 511 00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 5: every yes. For every yes I give, I'm saying no 512 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 5: to something else. If I want to do the very 513 00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 5: best at multiple things that are important to me, I 514 00:25:56,356 --> 00:26:00,036 Speaker 5: can't just keep saying yes, yes, yes. 515 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 1: But what are the practical steps we can use to 516 00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: turn a yes into a no. It begins with asking 517 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:08,236 Speaker 1: yourself specific questions whenever you're attempted to sign on to 518 00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: something new. What cost will agreeing to this task have 519 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:13,716 Speaker 1: on the people I care about? And what am I 520 00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:17,036 Speaker 1: saying no to with my yes? But we also need 521 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,316 Speaker 1: to explore the reasons we're tempted to say yes to 522 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 1: a potential ask in the first place. 523 00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 5: Why do I want to do this? Is my desire 524 00:26:24,116 --> 00:26:27,516 Speaker 5: to do this thing driven by my values? Or is 525 00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:28,636 Speaker 5: it driven by fear? 526 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:32,596 Speaker 1: Jordana says questions like these have helped her remember the 527 00:26:32,676 --> 00:26:36,236 Speaker 1: social opportunity cost of taking on too much, a problem 528 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:37,956 Speaker 1: she had ignored for decades. 529 00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 5: Told that it took earn the people that I love 530 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:43,836 Speaker 5: the most is that they just got the leftovers. They 531 00:26:43,836 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 5: would get the shadow version of me once I had 532 00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 5: given all that I had to give to other people. 533 00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 1: The boyfriend Giordana devoted so little time to during her 534 00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 1: clerkship is now her husband, and so to prevent her 535 00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:59,436 Speaker 1: old perfectionist instincts from harming her and her loved ones, 536 00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 1: Jordana now uses a timeout strategy whenever she gets a 537 00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:03,716 Speaker 1: new request. 538 00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 5: So I'm no longer allowed to just respond immediately. I 539 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 5: have to wait at least two hours. During that period, 540 00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:13,076 Speaker 5: I ask myself, one, do I actually want to do this? 541 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 5: Is this something that's driven by excitement or by fear? 542 00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 5: To What am I giving up if I say yes 543 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:19,516 Speaker 5: to this? 544 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:23,476 Speaker 1: Jordana now says yes only to projects that improve her happiness, 545 00:27:23,796 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 1: and that's made the work she's done over the last 546 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:27,396 Speaker 1: few years much more fulfilling. 547 00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 5: It turns out that you're much better at your work 548 00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 5: when you're not like beating the crap out of yourself. 549 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 1: But for all her progress, Jordana knows her inner goblin 550 00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 1: voices haven't been banished entirely. 551 00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:40,356 Speaker 5: Again, this is why my blog is called Chronicles of 552 00:27:40,396 --> 00:27:44,556 Speaker 5: a Recovering Type A plus perfectionist. It's a daily practice 553 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 5: of keeping them in check. But that act of keeping 554 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 5: them in check is Oh, It's just makes such a 555 00:27:50,436 --> 00:27:53,796 Speaker 5: world of difference in terms of your ability to live 556 00:27:53,836 --> 00:27:55,476 Speaker 5: your life in a joyful way. 557 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 1: I wish I could say that making this episode has 558 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 1: fully cured me of all my own harsh standards, but sadly, 559 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:05,836 Speaker 1: perfectionism recovery doesn't. 560 00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 3: Work that quickly. 561 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:09,676 Speaker 1: But there are at least some people who I've noticed 562 00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 1: that I've been making some progress. 563 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:13,516 Speaker 2: I think you're doing much much better. I mean, I'm 564 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 2: just glad you've kind of confronted it, I mean, bring 565 00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:16,636 Speaker 2: a name to it. 566 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 1: Even since chatting with Jordanna, I have begun noticing all 567 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:23,316 Speaker 1: the mean stuff I say inside my head, and I've 568 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 1: totally taken on her suggestion to the social opportunity costs 569 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 1: of my usual anxious yeses. These new strategies have begun 570 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 1: helping me to set new boundaries, which has made a 571 00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:36,196 Speaker 1: huge difference in my sense of overwhelm. 572 00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:38,876 Speaker 2: You'll always be a bit of a perfectionist, by at 573 00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:41,196 Speaker 2: least you're dealing with it now, which is like, so 574 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:43,476 Speaker 2: much better than before. 575 00:28:44,276 --> 00:28:47,036 Speaker 1: Making this episode has also given me a healthier attitude 576 00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:49,516 Speaker 1: as I turned to the other happiness challenges I'll face 577 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:52,436 Speaker 1: this season. I've promised myself that I won't go all 578 00:28:52,476 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 1: perfectionist when it comes to addressing my well being struggles 579 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 1: over the next few episodes, because as much as we'd 580 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:02,036 Speaker 1: love it, change doesn't happen overnight. But with the right strategies, 581 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: hopefully we can all start taking some compassionate steps in 582 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:08,716 Speaker 1: the right direction. In the next episode, I'll tackle another 583 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:12,396 Speaker 1: factor that I struggle with, the act of not doing stuff. 584 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:16,116 Speaker 1: Will explore why a constant workaholic like me should embrace 585 00:29:16,156 --> 00:29:18,996 Speaker 1: the power of boredom. We'll hear about the benefits of 586 00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:22,556 Speaker 1: feeling bored and learn some strategies for enjoying our empty 587 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:25,436 Speaker 1: moments in a healthier way. You answer these statements from 588 00:29:25,476 --> 00:29:29,956 Speaker 1: one highly disagree to seven I really agree. In situations 589 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 1: where I have to wait, such as in a line, 590 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 1: I get very restless. It seems that the same things 591 00:29:35,156 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 1: are on television or movies all the time. 592 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:39,636 Speaker 2: Seven that one be sure. 593 00:29:39,716 --> 00:29:41,276 Speaker 1: I am good at waiting patiently. 594 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:42,796 Speaker 3: One pretty bad. 595 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me, 596 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:47,796 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos