WEBVTT - #052 Jason Flom with John Huffington 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.039 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they are breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.200 happen to somebody and that's the first thing we said, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.720 that could never happen to me, But. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:52.600 They can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:17.080 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:22.120 Jason Flamm. Today, I am actually in the presence of 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.640 someone who I am. I can only say I'm in 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:30.200 awe of this guy. John Huffington is here. John was 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.920 in prison for thirty two years, ten of them on 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.240 death row for a double murder that he didn't commit. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.839 And the things that he's doing today would embarrass the 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.199 biggest do gooder among us. So, John, welcome to wrongful conviction. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:47.720 Thank you. I appreciate that. 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.160 So John, let's go back to the beginning, before this 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:56.720 insane saga began, because this happened when you were eighteen. 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.640 But before that, how was your life? What was it like? 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:02.840 Where'd you grow up? So? 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.200 I grew up in a small town called Churchvills. It's 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.040 in Harford County, in between two bigger towns that folk 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:14.400 would know, bela Air and Aberdeen and Maryland in Maryland, Yes, Maryland. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.359 So I grew up probably will be considered middle class, 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.080 upper class kind of a situation. Nice neighborhood, good schools. 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.880 I had everything that you know you would want in 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.040 that sense of support, a strong family. My parents ended 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.360 up being married over fifty six years. I think it was, 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.600 you know, at the end, siblings were doing well. So, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.680 you know, it's like anything else young age, you know, 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.600 we make our choices. We get exposed to different things. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.320 And I made a few the wrong choices and took 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.680 quicker routes to negativity is what it turned out to be, 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.880 and exposed myself to lifestyles that were not healthy. My 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.080 choices took me out of an arena where you know, 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.240 I should have had the white picket fence and half 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:01.560 kids or whatever and you. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.720 Know and adult. Were you doing anything violent at the time. 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.520 Oh no, no, no, I mean when I say bad choices, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.080 it was into getting into drugs and that's what I 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.400 was doing. I was, I was dealing drugs and I 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.239 was living that lifestyle. 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.160 As you were between tenth grade and I guess twelfth 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.760 grade when this happened, right, Did you ever have any 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.239 interaction with law enforcement based on the fact that you 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.280 were involved with drugs? No. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.320 I never had any regular charge placed on me in 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.280 that regard. I was a wild child and my parents 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.840 were trying to bring me more under control. So there 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.560 was that I was exposed to the juvenile criminal system 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.920 justice system at that time with what they call sin 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.000 charle child and need a supervision because my parents were 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.360 kind of wits end what to do. So I got 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.560 juvenile probation and had to do like family counseling and 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.960 that kind of thing to work through that. But again 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.440 it was me being rebellious against you know, my parents were. 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.680 There was a serious generation gap. My parents were born 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.320 in the twenties and they were in their forties before 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.400 the kids came along. So as I was pushing the 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:12.720 boundaries of curfews and just lifestyle choices, it was very 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.320 hard to sort of transgress into that through the family unit. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.039 And you know, having your younger brother and sister, my 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.400 parents didn't want that to be a bad influence on 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.960 them as well, so you know they were right to 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.120 try and bring me and bring me in tighter. 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.839 So none of the stuff that you're describing would prepare 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.240 you or anyone for death row or any of the 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:41.760 stuff that was to befall you. And it all leads 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.919 to that faithful day of May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty one, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.320 when there was a double murder and you were implicated 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.800 ultimately by the guy who actually committed the crimes. So 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.200 how did how did they come to decide to come 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:00.599 get you in the first place. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:06.360 So the night of or prior in that evening, I 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.640 was with what turned out to be my co defendant 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.800 and we were at a club and they were closing 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.640 that club early. It was a Sunday night, and the 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.520 owner was like, well, we're all going to go over here, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.159 why don't we go? And so we ended up over 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.240 at the club where one of the victims worked as 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.520 a DJ and the guy had worked for me in 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.520 the past. Like when I say worked for me, he 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.440 had purchased quantities of cocaine, you know, and sold for me. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:34.960 So we had various conversations and my co defendant was 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.880 actually looking to make a purchase that night. I was 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.040 waiting for supply to come in anyway. So that's kind 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.880 of the realm of why we were all in that, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.839 you know, gathering, so to speak. So we left there 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.520 after having some conversation. At the end of the night 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.559 at two in the morning whatever we had gone back 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.240 to he lived in a trailer home. We had gone 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.200 back and had further conversation. My co defend actually purchased 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.000 like an eighth of an hour ocid, coke or whatever 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.599 from him, and we left it at that and we left. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:08.240 So when the murders were discovered the next day and 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.560 the police investigation led them to my co defendant because 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.240 his name had been said while they were in the car, 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.640 because I guess we were following them and somebody's like, 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.120 who's the car following us, and it was said, you know, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:24.440 that's Dino. So they they tracked him down and he 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.359 reached out to me asking for an alibi. And again, 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.200 look at that age, I was eighteen, I'm I'm a 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.359 drug dealer, I'm anti police, I'm like all about the 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.480 loyalty factor and you know, never snitching and all those 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.720 kind of things, just being young and stupid. So it 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:41.400 wasn't a big thing to me. It was like, whatever, 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.560 no problem. This is The following night, I guess, I 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.279 got a call from his cousin that said the police 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.040 had reached out to him looking for me because apparently 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.359 they didn't know my last name. They just wanted to 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.840 talk to me. So I was like, fine, let's go. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.599 Let's go see him. So literally, we went to the 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.039 police station and I walked in, I knocked on the 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.480 door and I said, you know, I'm John Huffington. I 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.000 understanding you're looking for me, and they were like, yeah, 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:06.599 we are, so. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.080 But you didn't know at that time what they were 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:09.880 looking for you for. 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.360 No, I honestly, I didn't know the extent of what happened. 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.120 I just knew something had happened. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.280 Well because your friend at the time, cod defended it 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.080 turned out to be Dino Canaris. He hadn't told you 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.680 about what he had done. He just told you that 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:25.440 he wanted an all. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:27.840 We need to we need to have been here all 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.320 night because we had gone to a convention music convention 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.080 that they have as a bluegrass convention the next day, 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:36.560 and it was like, we need to fill the gap 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.760 from the night before. You know, I'm not stupid, but 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.240 I don't. I just didn't know the extent of it. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.679 I mean, who would ever expect that he had committed 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:46.600 a double murder? I mean, did you know this guy 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:47.480 to be a violent guy. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:51.760 No, But as the case developed, a quick sidebar on 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.600 that there was a witness that came forward who I 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.880 didn't even know. You know, I'd met once in my life. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.240 But this guy said that he was with Dino like 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.880 two weeks prior to this, and they were at the location, 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.160 the campground, and the Dino pulled out a gun and 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.239 a knife and wanted to go kill and rob these people. Again, 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.680 I don't find this out till years later in his trial. 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.040 Like that witness never testified at one of my trials. Ever, 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.360 it wasn't my witness, stayed witness. 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.040 And again, you had never personally known him to be 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.480 prone to this type of talking about violence and extreme violence. 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.400 Extreme yeah, no, I hadn't. I mean I always looked 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.240 at him. Quite honestly, he wasn't a friend of mine. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.760 His other cousins were friends of mine. Like I didn't 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.960 like Dino. He was addicted to the cocaine. This is 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:37.960 a guy that chased it. 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.360 So you covered for him because you just were more 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.560 I mean, even though he wasn't really a friend, you 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.719 were more anti authority at the time, and you were 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.200 just kind of being questionable too. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:50.800 Like the Greek. 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:52.839 He was much older than you, right, Yeah, he was in. 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.880 Mid twenties something, I think twenty seven. I was eighteen. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:58.400 The Greeks have their thing, and like I said, I 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.760 was friends with their cousin. I'm thinking, I'm rolling with 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.120 the gangsters, and this is what we all do, and 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.400 it's that kind of a lifestyle. But again, it's something 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:09.440 I still ascribe to today, Like I don't, you know, 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.600 have my code of what we could call honor ethics 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.640 were I don't snitch, you know, so when I get 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.600 in there and you know, they're confronting me with this, 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.600 I don't have a way out. Now. It's different to 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.560 think abstractly like Okay, something happened, even a crime of violence, 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.680 something happened. You know, it's abstract, but when you you know, 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.360 started hearing the elements of it, it was very I'm eighteen, 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.560 it was a little overwhelming. I didn't even know how 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.760 to process it. So my reaction to them was, look, 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:38.920 I'm not involved in this. You can come search my 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.000 apartment right now. I'll take a lot of tective tests. 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.080 I'll do whatever I can to extricate myself the only 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.480 way I know how. So they were like, we'll do 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.960 all that. So literally left the police station now is 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.960 probably midnight on Sunday, and they drove me back to 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.520 my apartment and I turned in like all my paraphernalia 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.400 right then and there, because I told them, I said, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.440 if you search my apartment, there might be some things 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.080 that you're going to find. And they're like like what, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.160 And I'm like, you know, I have scales, I have 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.640 drug parafhinney, that kind of thing, and they're like, are 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.880 you willing to turn it in? I'm like absolutely, I 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.920 just retired as of today, as of this moment, I'm retired. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.080 I'm not a drug dealer anymore. Like I knew my 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.120 life had just completely changed right then and there. So 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.160 we went back to the apartment, and I turned in 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.840 all this material and I volunteered to take the LT 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.240 of detector tests. So the only thing I had said 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.360 is I just wanted a lawyer there, and I don't. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.440 I don't have a lawyer, I don't know a lawyer. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.080 So the next morning, I literally went to the Yellow Pages, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.480 and back in those days, they had Yellow Pages, and 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.680 there was a guy in my class at school who 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.000 I knew his father was an attorney. So I looked 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.800 for that last name, called that law firm, and it 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.120 turns out as father does civil but his uncle does 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.719 criminal law. So I set up an appointment and went 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.079 in there the very next morning at like nine o'clock 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:52.719 and met with the attorney and you know, they're like, well, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:54.080 what is it you want us to do. I'm like, 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.040 I want to take the LOT of detector test. I 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.240 want this to be you know, I don't want them 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.040 looking at me like I'm in I want to do this, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:02.559 and they're like, okay, we'll set it up. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:03.600 So I was. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.600 Leaving the police station, went to get in our cars 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.959 with my future brother in law. He was my sister's 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.959 boyfriend at the time, and Dino's father was standing outside 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.600 because the restaurant's right there. So I said good morning 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.199 to him and continued on to get in the car. Well, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.080 unbeknownst to me that night, Dino had gone to his 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.760 father and gave his whatever you want to call his confession. 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.520 But obviously it was all putting the weight on me, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.880 saying that I held him hostage while all this stuff happened. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.600 So all that had transpired unbeknownst to me during the evening, 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.640 So when his father saw me, his father ran into 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.599 the police station and said, you know, John Hoffingon is 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.959 out in the parking lot. So we're starting to pull 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.800 out of our parking spot. I look up, I see 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.319 the back of the police station door just burst open. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.640 A dozen officers are fanning out into the parking lot. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.040 We're the only vehicle moving, so we're immediately surrounded. Guns 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.400 drown So I told him, my brother in law, I 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.280 just just stopped, just pull over, and we get out 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:00.319 of the car, and it's like. 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:01.280 That was it. 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.520 That was the last time that right there, that moment 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.040 was the last time my feet hit the ground until 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:07.400 thirty two years later. 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.240 Thirty two years. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.920 Later, and I never did get that light detective. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.040 Test, never got the light detective test. It sounds like 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.520 some other people should have been given light detectors, and. 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.920 They were, and they were and he failed to our 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.280 knowledge and what my law firm was able to ascertain, 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.280 were aware that he took two and he failed both 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:27.680 of them. 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.800 You're talking about Diinoo. So now you know you're in 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.120 real trouble. You've got this lawyer. Now did he end 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.480 up representing you? And how and how did things go 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.160 from there? How long were you held in jail? I'm 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:39.960 assuming you were held without bail because this was a 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.200 I mean you're talking about Joe Hudson was shot and 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.480 killed outside of farm on his way to a turn 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.840 out to be a fabricated drug deal. Right. He was 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:53.679 the boyfriend of Diana Becker, who was beaten and stabbed. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.400 She had been sleeping her trailer her son found her. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.240 I mean, it's the whole thing's horrible in every way, 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.640 and then it gets worse when an innocent man ends 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.679 up serving all this time in prison when they actually 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.080 had the real perpetrator. But he had every reason to 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.200 implicate you. I mean, he didn't care about you at all, 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.280 and he was making a deal for himself, probably to 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.160 spare his own life because of course Maryland had the 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.560 death penalty still. 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.400 Does, I think, right, No, they've abolised it. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.280 So Marylnd's a bossed death en. But they had the 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.480 death back then. So yeah, he had the strongest possible 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.240 incentive to implicate somebody. And you were the logical guy 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.040 because you were the guy who had been around that night, right, 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.920 So it's like he didn't need to be a brain 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.160 surgeon to figure that out. But then it's interesting too 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.880 because he came up with this story which every time 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.840 I think we've ever heard of it, it's been false, right, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:45.360 which is that you held him hostage. 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.760 And it changes, you know, his story changes every time 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.760 he testifies grand jury. I've had two trials. Will Mitt 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.880 is his gun. There's really no ducking that because when 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.080 he was with these undercover cops, there was a point 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.840 in time where they were driving somewhere and he was 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:03.839 in the car with the officer and he said, wait 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.520 a minute, let me go get my gun. I don't 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.959 ever go anywhere without my gun. So he went back 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:09.640 to his car. He came back with the gun. Now 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.760 the officer obviously is not pleased with this. Nervously he's 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.040 carrying a gun, so asked to see it, like, let 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.360 me what do you carry? Let me see it. Apparently 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.960 it's a it was a unique kind of a thirty 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.120 eight something. There was an animal in the handle or something. 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.280 The officer noted that. So just he can't duck the 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.360 fact that this officer is testifying it's an undercover state 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.280 police officer. The canarious carries a gun. So he tells 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.560 different versions of he supposedly sells me this gun, like 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.720 either two weeks before or a month before. You know, 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.520 that kind of stuff changes every time he opens his mouth. 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:46.600 And of course you didn't have the gun. I don't 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:47.680 have a gun, And they knew you didn't have gun 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.400 because they'd search your apartment. They searched everything. There was 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.240 no physical evidence connecting you to the crime. 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.440 The only thing that they as far as physical evidence goes, 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.800 is there's a vodka bottle that apparently was used as 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.880 a weapon to to bludge in Diana, and my fingerprint, 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.680 they've claimed, is on the neck of this bottle. Now, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.680 this is back in the eighties where everybody, myself included, 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.320 we always had these big bottles in your apartment or whatever, 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.720 and where you throw your coins and usually you had 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.080 these big feathers sticking out of it. I did on mine, 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.680 and that's what this bottle was in the trailer. Apparently 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.560 it was full of coins and such. So, you know, 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.440 they asked me, well, how could your fingerprint get on there? 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.920 My answers, I don't know. Like I was in the trailer. 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:28.880 Did I touch it at one point? I don't know. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:30.360 I'm not going to sit here and tell you lie 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.480 and say very specifically that night I moved the bottle. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.360 So therefore my fingerprints on there, I don't know. If 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.960 you say my fingerprints on there. There was also, I 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.760 don't know, it was over twenty other fingerprints and handprints 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.080 on this bottle that still to this day remained unidentified. 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.880 But that was the other piece of evidence that they've 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.880 used to put me at the scene. You know, I 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:52.520 don't have an answer for that. I'm not going to 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:54.920 sit here and make up an answer. I've been in 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.680 the trailer, I was there that night. Did I touch it? 0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.680 If if my fingerprints on there, obviously I did it 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.520 some point point. Did I swing it as a weapon. No, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:03.920 that's just not the facts. 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:20.000 So so you go to trial, did you still have 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.200 the same lawyer. 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.440 No, I you know at this point, I mean, you know, 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.800 I'm eighteen, and it wasn't that that could have a 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.320 drug dealer. I couldn't afford lawyers, so it became a 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.840 public defender. By the time I made it to trial, 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.320 I was represented by a public defender who, you actually 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.280 did a fairly good job. I mean he I thought, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.040 you know, he did a great job, and apparently the 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:40.720 jury didn't. 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:42.480 Your parents didn't want to pay for a lawyer. 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.800 No, you know, I was living on my own. I 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.120 didn't really talk to them about that. I mean, it 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.280 was kind of understood, like, you know, I'm grown, I'm 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.280 an adult, and you know, this is my journey, and 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.120 you know, I wasn't going to pull the family down 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.000 into it. My mom especially was very supportive, sat there 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.120 every day of trial and stuff. But no, my entire incarceration, 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.640 I never financially pulled anybody into it. 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:07.840 That's the way you are in any case. So you 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.560 had this public defender who did as good of a 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.720 job as you could have done under the circumstances, which 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.920 kudos to him. But at what point did you realize 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:16.760 that you were doomed. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:23.800 Here's a funny story. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.000 So the funny story there ain't nothing funny about that. 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:28.520 There's not. 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.199 But this is this is when I knew I was 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.760 in serious, serious trouble. So it's a change of venue 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.639 because it's death penalty case, it's automatic change of venue. 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.240 So I'm not in Harford County where the crime occurred, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:43.520 which is you know, rural but metropolitan. I'm in Caroline County, 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.639 which is extremely rural. So in the middle of the trial, 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.760 the jury's been sworn, this older woman approached the jury 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.919 box and passed a note to this elderly gentleman that 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.240 was on the jury, And of course everybody's watching it, 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.280 like what the heck, what the hell's going on? You 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.320 don't do this? And the judge stopped everything. It's like, 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.439 you know, I don't remember the names, but he's like, Myrtle, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.120 come up here for a minute. And she comes up there, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:09.919 and it's like what are you doing? What did you 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.280 just pass the bill? Everybody knows everybody in this county, 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.720 you know, Like she's like, oh, and he had the note, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.360 he had the Bailif grab the note, it had one 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.240 word on it, soybeans. So it's like, what is this 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.680 all about. She's like, well, the seas just came in 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.359 and I need Bill at home to plant the crop. 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.159 Now I knew I'm in trouble because here I am. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.960 This is a very cosmopolitan case, and you know, you know, 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.679 it's drugs and it's the city and this kind of thing. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.719 And I'm in a courtroom where they're talking about soybeans. 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.920 That's their priority, and they're not going to get any 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.640 of this information whatsoever. It just was one of those 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.240 you know, I'm in Mayberry and I'm in trouble. They're 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.680 going to listen to anything officials tell them, be it 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.240 state's attorneys, FBI agents on the stand. This is the 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.840 kind of folk that are just going to believe in 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.600 authority without questioning it or challenging it. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.960 So and they got to get home to deal with seib. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:01.399 So they got to get home. So they're going to 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.160 rush out of here as quickly as they can. And 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.520 it was Friday the thirteenth that the verdict came in, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:07.960 So of course that was an interesting day. But it 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.000 was just interesting. You asked when I knew it was like, 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.920 quite honestly, there was a lot of naiveness on my part, thinking, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.119 you know, I had never really been exposed to this 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.040 system and I'm like, truth, this is what this is about. 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.640 It's going to come out. They're going to figure this out. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.000 And it just didn't come like that. It's just I 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.639 had FBI agent after FBI agent come in there and 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:32.760 their suits and ties and we're with the FBI lab 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.280 me and they're saying what they're saying. Well, all three 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.600