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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they are breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.

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Speaker 3: They can.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today, I am actually in the presence of

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Speaker 4: someone who I am. I can only say I'm in

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Speaker 4: awe of this guy. John Huffington is here. John was

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Speaker 4: in prison for thirty two years, ten of them on

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Speaker 4: death row for a double murder that he didn't commit.

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Speaker 4: And the things that he's doing today would embarrass the

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Speaker 4: biggest do gooder among us. So, John, welcome to wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: So John, let's go back to the beginning, before this

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Speaker 4: insane saga began, because this happened when you were eighteen.

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Speaker 4: But before that, how was your life? What was it like?

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Speaker 4: Where'd you grow up? So?

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Speaker 3: I grew up in a small town called Churchvills. It's

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Speaker 3: in Harford County, in between two bigger towns that folk

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Speaker 3: would know, bela Air and Aberdeen and Maryland in Maryland, Yes, Maryland.

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Speaker 3: So I grew up probably will be considered middle class,

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Speaker 3: upper class kind of a situation. Nice neighborhood, good schools.

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Speaker 3: I had everything that you know you would want in

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Speaker 3: that sense of support, a strong family. My parents ended

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Speaker 3: up being married over fifty six years. I think it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, at the end, siblings were doing well. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's like anything else young age, you know,

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Speaker 3: we make our choices. We get exposed to different things.

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Speaker 3: And I made a few the wrong choices and took

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Speaker 3: quicker routes to negativity is what it turned out to be,

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Speaker 3: and exposed myself to lifestyles that were not healthy. My

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Speaker 3: choices took me out of an arena where you know,

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Speaker 3: I should have had the white picket fence and half

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Speaker 3: kids or whatever and you.

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Speaker 4: Know and adult. Were you doing anything violent at the time.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, I mean when I say bad choices,

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Speaker 3: it was into getting into drugs and that's what I

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Speaker 3: was doing. I was, I was dealing drugs and I

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Speaker 3: was living that lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: As you were between tenth grade and I guess twelfth

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Speaker 4: grade when this happened, right, Did you ever have any

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Speaker 4: interaction with law enforcement based on the fact that you

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Speaker 4: were involved with drugs? No.

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Speaker 3: I never had any regular charge placed on me in

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Speaker 3: that regard. I was a wild child and my parents

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Speaker 3: were trying to bring me more under control. So there

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Speaker 3: was that I was exposed to the juvenile criminal system

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Speaker 3: justice system at that time with what they call sin

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Speaker 3: charle child and need a supervision because my parents were

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Speaker 3: kind of wits end what to do. So I got

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Speaker 3: juvenile probation and had to do like family counseling and

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing to work through that. But again

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Speaker 3: it was me being rebellious against you know, my parents were.

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Speaker 3: There was a serious generation gap. My parents were born

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Speaker 3: in the twenties and they were in their forties before

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Speaker 3: the kids came along. So as I was pushing the

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Speaker 3: boundaries of curfews and just lifestyle choices, it was very

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Speaker 3: hard to sort of transgress into that through the family unit.

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Speaker 3: And you know, having your younger brother and sister, my

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Speaker 3: parents didn't want that to be a bad influence on

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Speaker 3: them as well, so you know they were right to

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Speaker 3: try and bring me and bring me in tighter.

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Speaker 4: So none of the stuff that you're describing would prepare

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Speaker 4: you or anyone for death row or any of the

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Speaker 4: stuff that was to befall you. And it all leads

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Speaker 4: to that faithful day of May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 4: when there was a double murder and you were implicated

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Speaker 4: ultimately by the guy who actually committed the crimes. So

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Speaker 4: how did how did they come to decide to come

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Speaker 4: get you in the first place.

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Speaker 3: So the night of or prior in that evening, I

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Speaker 3: was with what turned out to be my co defendant

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Speaker 3: and we were at a club and they were closing

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Speaker 3: that club early. It was a Sunday night, and the

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Speaker 3: owner was like, well, we're all going to go over here,

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Speaker 3: why don't we go? And so we ended up over

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Speaker 3: at the club where one of the victims worked as

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Speaker 3: a DJ and the guy had worked for me in

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Speaker 3: the past. Like when I say worked for me, he

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Speaker 3: had purchased quantities of cocaine, you know, and sold for me.

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Speaker 3: So we had various conversations and my co defendant was

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Speaker 3: actually looking to make a purchase that night. I was

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Speaker 3: waiting for supply to come in anyway. So that's kind

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Speaker 3: of the realm of why we were all in that,

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Speaker 3: you know, gathering, so to speak. So we left there

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Speaker 3: after having some conversation. At the end of the night

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Speaker 3: at two in the morning whatever we had gone back

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Speaker 3: to he lived in a trailer home. We had gone

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Speaker 3: back and had further conversation. My co defend actually purchased

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Speaker 3: like an eighth of an hour ocid, coke or whatever

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Speaker 3: from him, and we left it at that and we left.

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Speaker 3: So when the murders were discovered the next day and

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Speaker 3: the police investigation led them to my co defendant because

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Speaker 3: his name had been said while they were in the car,

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Speaker 3: because I guess we were following them and somebody's like,

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Speaker 3: who's the car following us, and it was said, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's Dino. So they they tracked him down and he

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Speaker 3: reached out to me asking for an alibi. And again,

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Speaker 3: look at that age, I was eighteen, I'm I'm a

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Speaker 3: drug dealer, I'm anti police, I'm like all about the

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Speaker 3: loyalty factor and you know, never snitching and all those

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Speaker 3: kind of things, just being young and stupid. So it

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Speaker 3: wasn't a big thing to me. It was like, whatever,

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Speaker 3: no problem. This is The following night, I guess, I

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Speaker 3: got a call from his cousin that said the police

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Speaker 3: had reached out to him looking for me because apparently

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Speaker 3: they didn't know my last name. They just wanted to

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Speaker 3: talk to me. So I was like, fine, let's go.

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Speaker 3: Let's go see him. So literally, we went to the

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Speaker 3: police station and I walked in, I knocked on the

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Speaker 3: door and I said, you know, I'm John Huffington. I

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Speaker 3: understanding you're looking for me, and they were like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we are, so.

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Speaker 4: But you didn't know at that time what they were

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Speaker 4: looking for you for.

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Speaker 3: No, I honestly, I didn't know the extent of what happened.

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Speaker 3: I just knew something had happened.

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Speaker 4: Well because your friend at the time, cod defended it

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Speaker 4: turned out to be Dino Canaris. He hadn't told you

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Speaker 4: about what he had done. He just told you that

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Speaker 4: he wanted an all.

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Speaker 3: We need to we need to have been here all

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Speaker 3: night because we had gone to a convention music convention

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Speaker 3: that they have as a bluegrass convention the next day,

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Speaker 3: and it was like, we need to fill the gap

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Speaker 3: from the night before. You know, I'm not stupid, but

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Speaker 3: I don't. I just didn't know the extent of it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, who would ever expect that he had committed

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Speaker 4: a double murder? I mean, did you know this guy

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Speaker 4: to be a violent guy.

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Speaker 3: No, But as the case developed, a quick sidebar on

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Speaker 3: that there was a witness that came forward who I

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Speaker 3: didn't even know. You know, I'd met once in my life.

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Speaker 3: But this guy said that he was with Dino like

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Speaker 3: two weeks prior to this, and they were at the location,

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Speaker 3: the campground, and the Dino pulled out a gun and

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Speaker 3: a knife and wanted to go kill and rob these people. Again,

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Speaker 3: I don't find this out till years later in his trial.

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Speaker 3: Like that witness never testified at one of my trials. Ever,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't my witness, stayed witness.

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Speaker 4: And again, you had never personally known him to be

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Speaker 4: prone to this type of talking about violence and extreme violence.

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Speaker 3: Extreme yeah, no, I hadn't. I mean I always looked

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Speaker 3: at him. Quite honestly, he wasn't a friend of mine.

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Speaker 3: His other cousins were friends of mine. Like I didn't

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Speaker 3: like Dino. He was addicted to the cocaine. This is

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Speaker 3: a guy that chased it.

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Speaker 4: So you covered for him because you just were more

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Speaker 4: I mean, even though he wasn't really a friend, you

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Speaker 4: were more anti authority at the time, and you were

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Speaker 4: just kind of being questionable too.

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Speaker 3: Like the Greek.

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Speaker 4: He was much older than you, right, Yeah, he was in.

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Speaker 3: Mid twenties something, I think twenty seven. I was eighteen.

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Speaker 3: The Greeks have their thing, and like I said, I

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Speaker 3: was friends with their cousin. I'm thinking, I'm rolling with

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Speaker 3: the gangsters, and this is what we all do, and

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Speaker 3: it's that kind of a lifestyle. But again, it's something

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Speaker 3: I still ascribe to today, Like I don't, you know,

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Speaker 3: have my code of what we could call honor ethics

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Speaker 3: were I don't snitch, you know, so when I get

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Speaker 3: in there and you know, they're confronting me with this,

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Speaker 3: I don't have a way out. Now. It's different to

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Speaker 3: think abstractly like Okay, something happened, even a crime of violence,

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Speaker 3: something happened. You know, it's abstract, but when you you know,

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Speaker 3: started hearing the elements of it, it was very I'm eighteen,

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Speaker 3: it was a little overwhelming. I didn't even know how

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Speaker 3: to process it. So my reaction to them was, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm not involved in this. You can come search my

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Speaker 3: apartment right now. I'll take a lot of tective tests.

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Speaker 3: I'll do whatever I can to extricate myself the only

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Speaker 3: way I know how. So they were like, we'll do

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Speaker 3: all that. So literally left the police station now is

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Speaker 3: probably midnight on Sunday, and they drove me back to

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Speaker 3: my apartment and I turned in like all my paraphernalia

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Speaker 3: right then and there, because I told them, I said,

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Speaker 3: if you search my apartment, there might be some things

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Speaker 3: that you're going to find. And they're like like what,

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, you know, I have scales, I have

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Speaker 3: drug parafhinney, that kind of thing, and they're like, are

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Speaker 3: you willing to turn it in? I'm like absolutely, I

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Speaker 3: just retired as of today, as of this moment, I'm retired.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a drug dealer anymore. Like I knew my

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Speaker 3: life had just completely changed right then and there. So

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Speaker 3: we went back to the apartment, and I turned in

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Speaker 3: all this material and I volunteered to take the LT

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Speaker 3: of detector tests. So the only thing I had said

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Speaker 3: is I just wanted a lawyer there, and I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a lawyer, I don't know a lawyer.

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Speaker 3: So the next morning, I literally went to the Yellow Pages,

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Speaker 3: and back in those days, they had Yellow Pages, and

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Speaker 3: there was a guy in my class at school who

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Speaker 3: I knew his father was an attorney. So I looked

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Speaker 3: for that last name, called that law firm, and it

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Speaker 3: turns out as father does civil but his uncle does

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Speaker 3: criminal law. So I set up an appointment and went

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Speaker 3: in there the very next morning at like nine o'clock

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Speaker 3: and met with the attorney and you know, they're like, well,

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Speaker 3: what is it you want us to do. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I want to take the LOT of detector test. I

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Speaker 3: want this to be you know, I don't want them

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Speaker 3: looking at me like I'm in I want to do this,

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Speaker 3: and they're like, okay, we'll set it up.

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Speaker 4: So I was.

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Speaker 3: Leaving the police station, went to get in our cars

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Speaker 3: with my future brother in law. He was my sister's

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Speaker 3: boyfriend at the time, and Dino's father was standing outside

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Speaker 3: because the restaurant's right there. So I said good morning

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Speaker 3: to him and continued on to get in the car. Well,

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Speaker 3: unbeknownst to me that night, Dino had gone to his

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Speaker 3: father and gave his whatever you want to call his confession.

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Speaker 3: But obviously it was all putting the weight on me,

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Speaker 3: saying that I held him hostage while all this stuff happened.

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Speaker 3: So all that had transpired unbeknownst to me during the evening,

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Speaker 3: So when his father saw me, his father ran into

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Speaker 3: the police station and said, you know, John Hoffingon is

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Speaker 3: out in the parking lot. So we're starting to pull

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Speaker 3: out of our parking spot. I look up, I see

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Speaker 3: the back of the police station door just burst open.

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Speaker 3: A dozen officers are fanning out into the parking lot.

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Speaker 3: We're the only vehicle moving, so we're immediately surrounded. Guns

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Speaker 3: drown So I told him, my brother in law, I

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Speaker 3: just just stopped, just pull over, and we get out

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Speaker 3: of the car, and it's like.

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Speaker 4: That was it.

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Speaker 3: That was the last time that right there, that moment

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Speaker 3: was the last time my feet hit the ground until

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Speaker 3: thirty two years later.

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Speaker 4: Thirty two years.

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Speaker 3: Later, and I never did get that light detective.

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Speaker 4: Test, never got the light detective test. It sounds like

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Speaker 4: some other people should have been given light detectors, and.

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Speaker 3: They were, and they were and he failed to our

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Speaker 3: knowledge and what my law firm was able to ascertain,

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Speaker 3: were aware that he took two and he failed both

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Speaker 3: of them.

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Speaker 4: You're talking about Diinoo. So now you know you're in

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Speaker 4: real trouble. You've got this lawyer. Now did he end

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Speaker 4: up representing you? And how and how did things go

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Speaker 4: from there? How long were you held in jail? I'm

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Speaker 4: assuming you were held without bail because this was a

255
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Speaker 4: I mean you're talking about Joe Hudson was shot and

256
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Speaker 4: killed outside of farm on his way to a turn

257
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Speaker 4: out to be a fabricated drug deal. Right. He was

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Speaker 4: the boyfriend of Diana Becker, who was beaten and stabbed.

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Speaker 4: She had been sleeping her trailer her son found her.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's the whole thing's horrible in every way,

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Speaker 4: and then it gets worse when an innocent man ends

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Speaker 4: up serving all this time in prison when they actually

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Speaker 4: had the real perpetrator. But he had every reason to

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Speaker 4: implicate you. I mean, he didn't care about you at all,

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Speaker 4: and he was making a deal for himself, probably to

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Speaker 4: spare his own life because of course Maryland had the

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Speaker 4: death penalty still.

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Speaker 3: Does, I think, right, No, they've abolised it.

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Speaker 4: So Marylnd's a bossed death en. But they had the

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Speaker 4: death back then. So yeah, he had the strongest possible

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Speaker 4: incentive to implicate somebody. And you were the logical guy

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Speaker 4: because you were the guy who had been around that night, right,

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Speaker 4: So it's like he didn't need to be a brain

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Speaker 4: surgeon to figure that out. But then it's interesting too

275
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Speaker 4: because he came up with this story which every time

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Speaker 4: I think we've ever heard of it, it's been false, right,

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Speaker 4: which is that you held him hostage.

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Speaker 3: And it changes, you know, his story changes every time

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Speaker 3: he testifies grand jury. I've had two trials. Will Mitt

280
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Speaker 3: is his gun. There's really no ducking that because when

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Speaker 3: he was with these undercover cops, there was a point

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Speaker 3: in time where they were driving somewhere and he was

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00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,839
Speaker 3: in the car with the officer and he said, wait

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Speaker 3: a minute, let me go get my gun. I don't

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Speaker 3: ever go anywhere without my gun. So he went back

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Speaker 3: to his car. He came back with the gun. Now

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Speaker 3: the officer obviously is not pleased with this. Nervously he's

288
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Speaker 3: carrying a gun, so asked to see it, like, let

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Speaker 3: me what do you carry? Let me see it. Apparently

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Speaker 3: it's a it was a unique kind of a thirty

291
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Speaker 3: eight something. There was an animal in the handle or something.

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Speaker 3: The officer noted that. So just he can't duck the

293
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Speaker 3: fact that this officer is testifying it's an undercover state

294
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Speaker 3: police officer. The canarious carries a gun. So he tells

295
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Speaker 3: different versions of he supposedly sells me this gun, like

296
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Speaker 3: either two weeks before or a month before. You know,

297
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff changes every time he opens his mouth.

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Speaker 4: And of course you didn't have the gun. I don't

299
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Speaker 4: have a gun, And they knew you didn't have gun

300
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Speaker 4: because they'd search your apartment. They searched everything. There was

301
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Speaker 4: no physical evidence connecting you to the crime.

302
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 3: The only thing that they as far as physical evidence goes,

303
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 3: is there's a vodka bottle that apparently was used as

304
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 3: a weapon to to bludge in Diana, and my fingerprint,

305
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 3: they've claimed, is on the neck of this bottle. Now,

306
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Speaker 3: this is back in the eighties where everybody, myself included,

307
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Speaker 3: we always had these big bottles in your apartment or whatever,

308
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Speaker 3: and where you throw your coins and usually you had

309
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 3: these big feathers sticking out of it. I did on mine,

310
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Speaker 3: and that's what this bottle was in the trailer. Apparently

311
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Speaker 3: it was full of coins and such. So, you know,

312
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Speaker 3: they asked me, well, how could your fingerprint get on there?

313
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Speaker 3: My answers, I don't know. Like I was in the trailer.

314
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Speaker 3: Did I touch it at one point? I don't know.

315
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Speaker 3: I'm not going to sit here and tell you lie

316
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Speaker 3: and say very specifically that night I moved the bottle.

317
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Speaker 3: So therefore my fingerprints on there, I don't know. If

318
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Speaker 3: you say my fingerprints on there. There was also, I

319
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 3: don't know, it was over twenty other fingerprints and handprints

320
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Speaker 3: on this bottle that still to this day remained unidentified.

321
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Speaker 3: But that was the other piece of evidence that they've

322
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Speaker 3: used to put me at the scene. You know, I

323
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Speaker 3: don't have an answer for that. I'm not going to

324
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Speaker 3: sit here and make up an answer. I've been in

325
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Speaker 3: the trailer, I was there that night. Did I touch it?

326
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Speaker 3: If if my fingerprints on there, obviously I did it

327
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Speaker 3: some point point. Did I swing it as a weapon. No,

328
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Speaker 3: that's just not the facts.

329
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Speaker 4: So so you go to trial, did you still have

330
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Speaker 4: the same lawyer.

331
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Speaker 3: No, I you know at this point, I mean, you know,

332
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Speaker 3: I'm eighteen, and it wasn't that that could have a

333
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 3: drug dealer. I couldn't afford lawyers, so it became a

334
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 3: public defender. By the time I made it to trial,

335
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 3: I was represented by a public defender who, you actually

336
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 3: did a fairly good job. I mean he I thought,

337
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 3: you know, he did a great job, and apparently the

338
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:40,720
Speaker 3: jury didn't.

339
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Speaker 4: Your parents didn't want to pay for a lawyer.

340
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 3: No, you know, I was living on my own. I

341
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,120
Speaker 3: didn't really talk to them about that. I mean, it

342
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 3: was kind of understood, like, you know, I'm grown, I'm

343
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Speaker 3: an adult, and you know, this is my journey, and

344
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 3: you know, I wasn't going to pull the family down

345
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Speaker 3: into it. My mom especially was very supportive, sat there

346
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 3: every day of trial and stuff. But no, my entire incarceration,

347
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,640
Speaker 3: I never financially pulled anybody into it.

348
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Speaker 4: That's the way you are in any case. So you

349
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 4: had this public defender who did as good of a

350
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Speaker 4: job as you could have done under the circumstances, which

351
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 4: kudos to him. But at what point did you realize

352
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 4: that you were doomed.

353
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Speaker 3: Here's a funny story.

354
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Speaker 4: So the funny story there ain't nothing funny about that.

355
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 4: There's not.

356
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Speaker 3: But this is this is when I knew I was

357
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Speaker 3: in serious, serious trouble. So it's a change of venue

358
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 3: because it's death penalty case, it's automatic change of venue.

359
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 3: So I'm not in Harford County where the crime occurred,

360
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 3: which is you know, rural but metropolitan. I'm in Caroline County,

361
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,639
Speaker 3: which is extremely rural. So in the middle of the trial,

362
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 3: the jury's been sworn, this older woman approached the jury

363
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,919
Speaker 3: box and passed a note to this elderly gentleman that

364
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 3: was on the jury, And of course everybody's watching it,

365
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 3: like what the heck, what the hell's going on? You

366
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 3: don't do this? And the judge stopped everything. It's like,

367
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 3: you know, I don't remember the names, but he's like, Myrtle,

368
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,120
Speaker 3: come up here for a minute. And she comes up there,

369
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,919
Speaker 3: and it's like what are you doing? What did you

370
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 3: just pass the bill? Everybody knows everybody in this county,

371
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 3: you know, Like she's like, oh, and he had the note,

372
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 3: he had the Bailif grab the note, it had one

373
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,240
Speaker 3: word on it, soybeans. So it's like, what is this

374
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 3: all about. She's like, well, the seas just came in

375
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 3: and I need Bill at home to plant the crop.

376
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,159
Speaker 3: Now I knew I'm in trouble because here I am.

377
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 3: This is a very cosmopolitan case, and you know, you know,

378
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 3: it's drugs and it's the city and this kind of thing.

379
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,719
Speaker 3: And I'm in a courtroom where they're talking about soybeans.

380
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,920
Speaker 3: That's their priority, and they're not going to get any

381
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,640
Speaker 3: of this information whatsoever. It just was one of those

382
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 3: you know, I'm in Mayberry and I'm in trouble. They're

383
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 3: going to listen to anything officials tell them, be it

384
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 3: state's attorneys, FBI agents on the stand. This is the

385
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 3: kind of folk that are just going to believe in

386
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 3: authority without questioning it or challenging it.

387
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Speaker 4: So and they got to get home to deal with seib.

388
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 3: So they got to get home. So they're going to

389
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 3: rush out of here as quickly as they can. And

390
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 3: it was Friday the thirteenth that the verdict came in,

391
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 3: So of course that was an interesting day. But it

392
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 3: was just interesting. You asked when I knew it was like,

393
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 3: quite honestly, there was a lot of naiveness on my part, thinking,

394
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 3: you know, I had never really been exposed to this

395
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 3: system and I'm like, truth, this is what this is about.

396
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 3: It's going to come out. They're going to figure this out.

397
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 3: And it just didn't come like that. It's just I

398
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 3: had FBI agent after FBI agent come in there and

399
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 3: their suits and ties and we're with the FBI lab

400
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 3: me and they're saying what they're saying. Well, all three

401
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 3: of those FBI agents have now been discounted, like their testimony,

402
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 3: their their tests have been thrown out. But at the time,

403
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 3: that's an impressive thing to may bury er anywhere else.

404
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 3: And you know, I was just up against it. And

405
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,439
Speaker 3: the more you sit there day after day listening to

406
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 3: the testimony, the more worried you get. This is not

407
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 3: going to go.

408
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 4: Well, no, you were. You were doing this backwoods place

409
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 4: and people that are that are heredy get home and

410
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 4: it's a perfect storm. You're done. And we know now,

411
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 4: and the FBI has acknowledged this right because the four

412
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 4: year study was conducted by the Innocis Project and the FBI,

413
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 4: and the results showed that in a study I think

414
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 4: it was two hundred and sixty eight cases, they found

415
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 4: that I think in two hundred and fifty seven of them.

416
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 4: I'm trying to remember these numbers out of my head.

417
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 4: I think that's right. FBI agents had either lied or

418
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,160
Speaker 4: been mistaken, and these were all cases involving hair analysis

419
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 4: like yours. In fact, yours was one of them. And

420
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 4: the fact is that when I say they either lied

421
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,679
Speaker 4: or were mistaken, what I want people to understand is

422
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 4: that in every one of those cases in which they

423
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 4: were mistaken, they were mistaken in favor of the prosecution.

424
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 4: So it's hard to take a view and say, well,

425
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 4: these were honest mistakes because none of them came down

426
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 4: in the other direction. And of the twenty eight FBI

427
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 4: agents involved, twenty six of them were complicit in this.

428
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 4: So you were a victim like so many other people,

429
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 4: based on this hair analysis in which they either lied

430
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 4: or exaggerated or or misstated the likelihood that the hairs

431
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 4: could have come from somebody else. And we know that

432
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 4: they were just making these fingers up out of thin

433
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 4: air and saying things with certainty that were in some

434
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 4: cases even money or even less right, that the odds

435
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 4: could it could have come from almost anyone. And of

436
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 4: course it's extremely powerful, as you said, when an FBI

437
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 4: agent gets up there, I mean, who's gonna Who's gonna

438
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 4: think twice. Maybe people who listen to the show will

439
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 4: think twice. I hope. So so the day comes Friday

440
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 4: the thirteenth, you've got very little hope in hell at

441
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 4: this point. What were you expecting when the jury went out?

442
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 4: How long did they deliberate?

443
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: Day and a half.

444
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 4: Wow, that's actually longer than I would have thought. And

445
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 4: then they come back in did they look at you?

446
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: No?

447
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 3: They always have heard that adage before, like if they're

448
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: not looking at you, you're in trouble. So they didn't,

449
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 3: And so I knew, you know, you just get that,

450
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 3: you know, like, I don't know that's true, but I've

451
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: been to somebody told me that prior. So I was

452
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 3: looking to see if they were going to look me

453
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: in the eye. And they didn't. So you stand for

454
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 3: the verdict. The first count. It was the strangest thing.

455
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 3: I still don't understand how they did it. But the

456
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: first count was first degree premeditated moles forethought murder, you know,

457
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 3: murdered the first degree. And they said not guilty.

458
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 4: Wow.

459
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 3: So I was like, like, okay, and you thought you

460
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: were going home. I thought that's okay, this is good.

461
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 3: You know, we made it. We proved our point. Then

462
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 3: they said, okay, as to the first count, still the

463
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 3: same first count, indictment to felony murder. How do you

464
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: find And that's when they say guilty And I'm like, wait,

465
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 3: I just got it. Guilty and not guilty on the

466
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 3: same count, just two different degrees of murder. It always

467
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 3: bothered me, and I've actually challenged that over and over

468
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 3: again as a double jeopardy violation, but it never it

469
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 3: just never caught wind. You know, we just couldn't prevail

470
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: on that. But that's my feelings. As I was standing there,

471
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: is like wow. You know, you go from all the

472
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 3: way to the top of the roller coaster all the

473
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: way at the bottom that quickly, and from that you

474
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 3: don't really hear anything more Like I didn't. I was

475
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: just in a daze, like what just happened here? And

476
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: you're trying to process it, and I'm like, I'm eighteen

477
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 3: years old, Like as smart as I might have thought

478
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: I was at that age. You know, now I have

479
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 3: thirty some years of hindsight to look back on that

480
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 3: eighteen year old kid that was standing there, and I'm

481
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 3: not smart and I didn't know how to process it.

482
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: It was way above my capacity to really understand and

483
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: fathom what had happened and what was about to happen,

484
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 3: the whole nine I mean, looking back, it's like, I

485
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: don't even know how I was able to stand there

486
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 3: and just absorb it.

487
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's samerically you were able to stay

488
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 4: on your feet.

489
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 3: Actually I was rocking. There wasn't any breeze in that courtroom,

490
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 3: but I certainly started, you know, like just rocking on

491
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 3: my heels a little bit. Like I was taken.

492
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 4: Aback and your mom was there? Do you remember who

493
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 4: else was there?

494
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: You know? I remember, Yeah, my parents were there. You know,

495
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: I'm under custody, so I can't even go over and

496
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 3: get my mother. Oh, I can't be reassuring. I can't

497
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 3: do anything because I don't even know, don't I don't

498
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 3: know what's about to befall me. I don't know what

499
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 3: death row is going to be like in the penitentiary

500
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: because it's a buyerfurcated process. So the conviction has happened,

501
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: but now I've got to come back in about a

502
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 3: month and be sentenced. There's a whole other process about

503
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: to occur as well. And again I had not been

504
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: exposed to this. This is long before forensic files and

505
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: CSI and all these kinds of shows, Like I don't know,

506
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: I just didn't know, and I don't think I ever

507
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: processed it. I think I just absorbed it and just

508
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 3: like treading water, just kept my head above water and

509
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: just kept coming.

510
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 4: You know, so so amazing that you said what you

511
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 4: just said, and you were so young, and then your

512
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: situation couldn't have been more diary. You were about to

513
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 4: be sent to death, and yet your thought was trying

514
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 4: to comfort your mom, not the other way around. It's

515
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 4: amazing to me like that. You know, what that says

516
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 4: about your character is pretty profound, and I just want

517
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 4: to take a moment to recognize that. So now the

518
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: worst possible thing that could happen has happened. Off you

519
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: go to prison. Can you take us through that? I

520
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 4: mean death row? I think it's everybody's most primal fear.

521
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: Well, interesting enough, in Maryland the time that I went

522
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: on death row, it was not segregated, and we were

523
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: in population when I first went in there. What they

524
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: would do is they put you on ad and in SAG.

525
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 3: In other words, they lock you on a cell for

526
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: a month just to see if you're your head's right,

527
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: I guess, and then they let you out into regular pop.

528
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 3: You know you're in gen pop. There's nothing to distinguish

529
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: you as being death row. They had a board somewhere

530
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: where they had kept our pictures on it and like,

531
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: these are the guys on death row. But we lived

532
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: anywhere we wanted inside the prison. We could live in

533
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: any housing block we wanted. We weren't all in the

534
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: same tier or whatever at the beginning, the years into it,

535
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: I don't know, four or five years in, they decided

536
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: to put us all in the same tiers, so like

537
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: we were sell one through twelve on the second tier

538
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 3: street side of a block. So we were housed to

539
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 3: go at a later point, but in the beginning we weren't.

540
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: The thing about prison is like everybody knows everything. The

541
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 3: grapevine is extremely good, so people know you're on death

542
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 3: road whatever, but it doesn't carry any cachet value when

543
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: the guy next to you is serving five life sentences,

544
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 3: so he doesn't give a shit that you got two

545
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: death ponies. You know, it doesn't matter, doesn't give you

546
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 3: any credentials whatsoever. It really comes down to who you are.

547
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 4: Did you say two death penalties.

548
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, my original sentence was death plus death plus fifteen

549
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: plus five plus three the first total two death ponies

550
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: in like twenty one years, all consecutive by the way, right,

551
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 3: I don't know how you do that time.

552
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 4: But well so if they execute you when you come

553
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 4: back to life, they can execute you again.

554
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: And then hold my body for twenty one years, I guess.

555
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 4: Or if you come back to life a second time, right,

556
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 4: then they get to hold you in prison for another

557
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 4: twenty one years.

558
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 3: It's really just sho, just stepid.

559
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 4: The concept is, yeah, double the double death sentences, Like

560
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 4: what the fuck? Anyway? I can't I can't even process

561
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 4: this as far as death row is concerned. I mean,

562
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 4: there's no good news whatsoever.

563
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: There's nothing. There is absolutely zero for that. And you

564
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 3: learn the minute you step onto the tier, like nobody

565
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: gives a shit if you're innocent, you're not, so like

566
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: there's no point in going in there saying, you know,

567
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: but wait, I'm innocent. I'm innocent, so I guess I

568
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 3: can like it. It's like if you stepped out on

569
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: a pond, a frozen pond, and you suddenly the ice

570
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 3: cracked and you fell through and you drift, so you're

571
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: not under that air hole anymore. But you can see

572
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: through the ice and you know, it's twelve inches of

573
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: ice there. You see the people, and you could scream

574
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: all you want, it's just air bubbles, you know, like

575
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: you just can't be heard. You're trapped. And that's just

576
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: how it felt. It's a self imposed cage that I

577
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 3: put myself on because you want to scream through the

578
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: world like I'm innocent, I don't belong here. But then

579
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: you you know, everybody doesn't belong in prison, and everybody's innocent.

580
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 3: You fall into that, so I don't know. I just

581
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: you bite your tongue. You learn to adjust to the

582
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 3: city situation the best you can. And I just hit

583
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 3: the law library, you know. I spent the first year

584
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: just reading everything i'd get my hands on and studying law,

585
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 3: and I was writing my emotions and driving my lawyers crazy,

586
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: you know. But I was fighting for my life, and

587
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: that's the only way I knew how to do it.

588
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 3: So I tried to be a little bit more proactive

589
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: or constructive in that way instead of just sitting back

590
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 3: with a woe is me attitude. And obviously I couldn't

591
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: count anybody else to save my life. I have to

592
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: fight for my life, and that's what I did.

593
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: You brought up an interesting point, which is that as

594
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 4: a death row inmate, you are entitled to a post

595
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 4: conviction council, right, an apella council. So that's about the

596
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 4: only positive thing I guess about being sentenced to death,

597
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: Whereas if you were a normal inmate or sense to life,

598
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: you would not be entitled to that and you'd be

599
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: totally on your own. So there you were in the

600
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: law library. Was what was the day to day experience,

601
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 4: the physical experience, but also what was the mental and

602
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: spiritual thing that led you to be able to not

603
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: only maintain your physical health, so I mean as best

604
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 4: you could, but also eventually find a way to get

605
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: out and be sitting right here right now. I mean,

606
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: what can you tell us?

607
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: Well, soon the beginning guy was just angry. You know,

608
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: I was young and still not that I figured myself

609
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: out by any means. But I hadn't like really took

610
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: that time in the introspection and try to figure out

611
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: who I thought I was. So maybe the first I

612
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: want to say, these six or seven years, I probably

613
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: was close to becoming everything they wanted me to be,

614
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: which is the convict. I was getting in trouble inside.

615
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: I had my share of fights. I had a violation

616
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: of the prison rules for whatever things I was doing.

617
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: I had an attempt to escape, you know, I just

618
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: I was not conformed, wasn't going to conform. I had

619
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: a real problem with authority, with the officers. I literally

620
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 3: got an assault charge against one officer one time, who

621
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: said I saw to them. But I was defending myself against

622
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: five officers, and you know, I'm the one against the

623
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: assault charge, which was dropped later. But so that's where

624
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: I was becoming. And then I guess I had a

625
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: little epithemy. You know, I woke up and there was

626
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: a guy I was working with. I was in the

627
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: property room, you know, I went did my job every

628
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: day and I worked in the package room and where

629
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: the property was packed up. And this guy was always

630
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: involved in activities like he was a member j c's

631
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: was you had a chapter inside this is the Junior

632
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 3: Chamber of Commerce, And he was always doing paperwork and

633
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: doing stuff. And I was like, what are you doing

634
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 3: And he's like, you need to come join, you need

635
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: to be a part of this. So I ended up

636
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: joining the j CS, and the minute I joined, they

637
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: asked me to be on their board as Ways and

638
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: Means director, their fundraiser, and then two years later, one

639
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: year later, I was the president. And you know, now

640
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: the jc's are is a leadership training through community service.

641
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 3: They were doing a lot of good things, and I

642
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: felt a responsibility that I got one hundred and twenty guys.

643
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: Maybe not all of them voted for me, but they

644
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 3: elected me, and so I'm there to lead them. And then,

645
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 3: you know, I started looking around and it's like, here

646
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 3: are these you know, their kids. Some of them were

647
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: sixteen seventeen younger than me. They had come into the

648
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: system and they're the throwaway class, and nobody cared. Nobody

649
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: was working with them. The warden had two rules, don't

650
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: jump on my wall and don't jump on my officers.

651
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: Other than that, anything went. I mean, guy gets killed,

652
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: like stabbed to death on the yard. Literally two hours later,

653
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: they threw sand over the blood and we're back to normal,

654
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: like nothing ever happened. That's that was the penitentiaries back then.

655
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: So I felt a calling to do something different, and

656
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: so through jc's, you know, we were able to start

657
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: doing some things that brought a certain degree of i

658
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: don't know, self respect and measurability to not just the inmates,

659
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: but to the population inside as well as out. So

660
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: we did a lot of projects out on the street,

661
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: and we had a local chapter, the NAACP that was

662
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: in there as well. And this is like when school

663
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: uniforms were first coming back as a topic. There was

664
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: a young girl that got murdered straight bullet hit her

665
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: and she was like eight years old, attended Utah Marshburne

666
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: Elementary School and they were having trouble raising the money

667
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: for their school uniforms. So we did it inside of prison.

668
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 3: We raised that money for the school uniforms, the NAP

669
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: and the JCS. And then it was you know, I

670
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: saw a little article in the It was the open

671
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: form section of the Aegis. It was a letter that

672
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: a woman had written about her grandchild needed a bone

673
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: marrow transplant, shorans won't go pay for it. She was

674
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 3: asking for help. So I reached out and contacted her

675
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 3: and said, look, you know, we don't have a lot

676
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 3: of money, but we have a silk screen shop, so

677
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: you know, we can design some T shirts and I'll

678
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: give them to you. You can sell them at your fundraisers,

679
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: you know. So we ended up giving her like five

680
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: hundred T shirts and like a thousand of these little buttons,

681
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: and they were using those to raise money and the

682
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: girl got her surgery. It was successful, and you know,

683
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: every Christmas, the grandmother would send me pictures and a card,

684
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: you know, tell them to give me an update as

685
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: she you know, went through life and graduated high school

686
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: and stuff. So there was a lot of good And

687
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: I don't say that because it was me. I'll saying

688
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: it because it was one hundred and twenty guys following

689
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: what we were doing that were doing good things and

690
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: giving back to the community outside as well as inside.

691
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: And that's where I found, I guess my calling in

692
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: a sense where rewoken my own social conscience and my

693
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: passion to do something right and do it well, you know.

694
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: To be honest, it was just be An Onnery, like

695
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 3: I'm still fighting my case, and my thought process was

696
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be carried kicking and screaming into

697
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: a gas chamber and I'm not going to walk in

698
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: their head bowed. If that's the ultimate thing's going to

699
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: happen when I walk in there, they're gonna still question

700
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: for decades later what they did and why they did

701
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: it and if they got the right guy, because I'm

702
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: not going to fit the stereotype of what they think.

703
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: So it's just important. And at the end, it really

704
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: is you know, they talk about the dash. It really

705
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 3: comes down to the dash. This man was born, this

706
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: man dies. It's about what happens in between the dash

707
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: that's in between those two dates. And if you don't

708
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,479
Speaker 3: make it count for something, then why were you here?

709
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: So I figured, if I'm in there, that's where my

710
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: dash is gonna be, then it's still gonna count. And

711
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 3: so it was really really important to me to make

712
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 3: my life mean something, regardless of where I was. So,

713
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: you know, I was doing the JCS. We brought Alternative

714
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: to Violence Project from New York down to Baltimore. You know,

715
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: this was starting green Haven State Prison up here by

716
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: the Quakers. It's now an international organization conflict mediation. We

717
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 3: started that in Maryland and I got my college degree

718
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 3: while I was inside. I was in the last graduating classes.

719
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: Congress took away our access to the Pelgram. They literally

720
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 3: took away my senior year. I graduated as a junior

721
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 3: I just was lucky. I was going for a dual

722
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 3: degree and I had enough credits to go on out.

723
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 3: But I lost my senior year over that poor decision.

724
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: But so I chose to make the time work for me,

725
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: not saying it was easy time. I did my time

726
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 3: and all the hardest prisons in Maryland. You know, I

727
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: was in the penitentiary for my first sixteen I was

728
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: in Cumberland, I was in the cut, I was in supermacs.

729
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 3: I didn't get any easy ride. There was no country

730
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: club prison for me at any point in time. But

731
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 3: we were able to make a difference and change not

732
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 3: just our mentalities, but I think somehow society looked at us,

733
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 3: and hopefully those seas that we planted back then grow

734
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 3: trees now because more people are looking at re entry

735
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: and trying to get reciptism down and understanding the need

736
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 3: to launch programs in the system and work with folk,

737
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: not to warehouse people, but to actually say, regardless of

738
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: why you're there, human beings are redeemable and the human

739
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 3: spirit is going to thrive in spite of So why

740
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: don't we encourage that? Why don't we order that with

741
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: positivity rather than encourage the negativity. Because you encourage the negativity,

742
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 3: you just create an unsafe environment for your own guard force.

743
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 3: And seventy five percent of these people are coming home

744
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 3: breeding repeat.

745
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 4: So well yeah, I mean nationally, ninety five percent of

746
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 4: everyone that's in prison is going to be released at

747
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: some point. So, just purely on a societal level, it

748
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 4: behooves all of us to want to have those people

749
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 4: have a shot when they get out at getting on

750
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 4: the right track. So you survived this death row ordeal.

751
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: All the odds were stacked against you. Finally, decades into

752
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 4: this nightmare of yours, you discover that the evidence exists

753
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: that can actually free you. Right, and the response of

754
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 4: the authorities is actually fucking mind blowing.

755
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: Right.

756
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 4: Talk about the hair and when that emerged and how

757
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: it emerged and what the response of the people in

758
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 4: power was.

759
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: I'll try to do this really quickly because it goes

760
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 3: all the way back to the Oklahoma City bombing case.

761
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 3: So after the Oklahoma City bombing case, there was a

762
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: whistleblower that came out of the FBI lab, doctor Frederick Whitehurst,

763
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: and he brought forth several allegations about the pressure to

764
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 3: falsify it evidence and the very fact that the lab

765
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 3: was not equipped to deliver a good report. It was dirty,

766
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: the best practices weren't being utilized. He laid it out

767
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: and what ended up happening. It launched I think about

768
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: a year long investigation from the Spector General's Office at

769
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 3: which time, at the conclusion of that, they issued this

770
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 3: massive report, three hundred page report, and they found that

771
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: what doctor Whitehurst had alleged was true in a lot

772
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 3: of cases, so in particular it affects me. They named

773
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 3: the FBI agent that it testified in my case, agent

774
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: Michael Malone, and their commentary about him was that he

775
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 3: consistently testified outside of his area of expertise and misrepresented evidence.

776
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: Now I'm just a layman. It sounds like you just

777
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: called the man a liar with very fancy words, but

778
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: they didn't go quite that far to call him that.

779
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 3: So here's this report and I'm thinking, great, we can

780
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 3: do something. Well we can't. I'm on collateral attack at

781
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 3: this time, meaning post conviction, and apparently that report doesn't

782
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 3: mean anything. So I was never able to persevere or

783
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: follow any kind of motions based on that. So now

784
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: well let me jump to the next part. So in

785
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: two thousand and three, I get introduced to the Innostance Project.

786
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: A friend of mine was working through the Innocence Project

787
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: in Nina Nina. Morrison was handling his case and he

788
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: had a hair evidence in this case and a DNA

789
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: tested it came back it wasn't his. He was about

790
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 3: to go home and he was like, you need to

791
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: contact these people because he knew my case and he

792
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 3: knew me. He'd been around me for decades. You know,

793
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: we know trust me. This fellow convicts. We know who

794
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: did a crime and who didn't, and he knew that

795
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: I didn't do it. So with his encouragement, I'd reached

796
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 3: out and got the Innocence Project involved in my law firm,

797
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: and we had filed to do DNA testing on the hair.

798
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 3: This is two thousand and three. Well, the very first

799
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: thing the state did in writing was filed in motion

800
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: asking the court's permission to destroy the evidence. Now we

801
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: didn't know why is an odd thing to right? You know,

802
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 3: like we want to just know you've held it for whatever,

803
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: twenty six twenty seven years at that time, and now

804
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: you want to destroy it when we're about to send

805
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: it to a lab that we mutually agree you know,

806
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 3: is the top it's might have typing lab in Pennsylvania,

807
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: doctor Terry Melton, who's the foremost DNA scientists in the country.

808
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: And we all agree this is going to be a fair review,

809
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: and you're saying you want to destroy the evidence. So

810
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: the judge ruled against that, and after an eight hour

811
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: long court in battle, we've got to approveal to send

812
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 3: the hair to the lab.

813
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 4: Well at least time for a second here, right, So

814
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: I'm just picturing the judge. The judge sitting there and

815
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 4: the prosecutors are arguing, saying, you know what, before we

816
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 4: discover the truth, we just like to take the preliminary

817
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 4: step of destroying any chance of discovering the truth by

818
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 4: eliminating the one thing that can actually tell us what happened.

819
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: You know, you can't make this stuff up. It's public

820
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 3: record is you couldn't write a script like this. It's

821
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 3: mind boggling. It becomes more mind boggling when fourteen years

822
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 3: later we understand why that. So what happens is we

823
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 3: send these slides to the lab, we get a call

824
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: from the lab that basically says, what do you want

825
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 3: us to do with this? And we're like, test the

826
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 3: two hairs. And again, I have to pay for this.

827
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 3: I've been incarcerated twenty eive years at this point. Coming

828
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: up with fifteen thousand dollars is not an easy task,

829
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 3: and I'm still it wasn't clear on how I was

830
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: going to do that, but we were moving forward. So

831
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 3: doctor Melton hits my lawyers and says, you know, what

832
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: do you want me to do? And it's like test

833
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: the hairs. Well, the problem was there was about ten

834
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 3: microscopic slides. Each slide had five to eight hairs on them.

835
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: They were preserved in some kind of chemical mounting. They

836
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 3: were not identified. They were not even laid out like

837
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: one strand pulled tight like they were on top of

838
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 3: each other.

839
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: So you had to test all of them.

840
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: Well, to test all of them, it would have cost

841
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 3: probably I think it was eighty five thousand, and at

842
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: the end of the day, like, what does that tell me? Like,

843
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 3: I've had two trials, where do these hairs even come from?

844
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 3: All along, you've always said we have two hairs, like

845
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: they were the only two hairs in this entire trailer,

846
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 3: and they belonged to Huffington And literally one of the

847
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 3: hairs was found on the body and so you put

848
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 3: you right at the scene. So I didn't even know

849
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 3: there were that many hairs. We never knew that. So

850
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: we went back with the help of the Instance Project,

851
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 3: and we had an agent look at the file to

852
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: see if there was any notes in there that might

853
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: help us. We filed a Freedom Information Act to get

854
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: the file, which took another year, and at the end

855
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: of that the FBI told us, well, whoever does their

856
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: Freedom Information Act? Told us, well, your file exists. Here's

857
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 3: the number, here's the town, here's the building, here's the file.

858
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: Cabinet is supposed to be in but it's not there.

859
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 3: So your request is denied. You can appeal this if

860
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: you want. Just like that, My file wasn't around, so like,

861
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 3: oh okay, So there wasn't anything more we could do.

862
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 3: We sent the stuff back to the state. We withdrew

863
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: the motion from the court, and actually my lawyers withdrew

864
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 3: from the case because we were done. There was nothing

865
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: more that we could do. That was like the last

866
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: basically a hail Mary that we were trying to prove

867
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: the point. So years go by, this is two thousand

868
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: and three, four in that range. In two thousand and nine,

869
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 3: Governor Maalley puts a new law on the book called

870
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 3: a rid of actual innocence, and that's based on pre

871
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: ponderance of evidence or the totality of the evidence. Meaning

872
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: before you would only look at this cup of water

873
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 3: by itself. But if you look at this cup of

874
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: water with that picture of Warder sitting on this table

875
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: with two of us talking, now there's a story if

876
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 3: we put it in this proper perspective. So here's this

877
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: chance to really go back in and say, let's look

878
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 3: at all these little pieces together. They tell a story.

879
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 3: So my lawyer spent, oh my god, probably a year

880
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 3: preparing that motion. They looked at every state that had

881
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 3: similar laws and really studied it. We filed a seventy

882
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: five page motion, and we had a hearing. At the

883
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 3: hearing again the provider of this state's attorney. The first

884
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: thing he tells the judge is where your honor mister

885
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 3: Havin had a chance to test the hairs. He didn't

886
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: even test them, So why are we still here today?

887
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: So the judge, who doesn't know why we didn't test them,

888
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 3: now turns and says, well, why didn't you tell them?

889
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 3: So my lawyers explained to him what happened, and he

890
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 3: turned to the State. He said, well, why does mister

891
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: Huffing didn't have to test them anyway? You test them,

892
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: which the losses I have to. But he told the State,

893
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: you go test them. I'm going to hold this hearing.

894
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: You go test them. So we left that hearing. The

895
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 3: State went to the State Police and asked them to

896
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 3: test the hairs, and state Police said, no, we don't

897
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: test other labs work and we don't have a budget

898
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 3: for that, so we're not touching it. So all summer long,

899
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: the judge thinks that we're testing hairs. What the State

900
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: was doing is they went back and they tested my boots,

901
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 3: and they tested my pants, and they tested the jacket.

902
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 3: They tested everything they could possibly test, and then September comes,

903
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: they're done. They haven't tried to do the hairs with

904
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 3: the FBI. So they tell my lawyers, we're done, let's

905
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: go back into court. We don't have anything more to test.

906
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 3: But they're telling the judge with regular updates like we're

907
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: working on, we're working on.

908
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: And they tested all your stuff just to see if

909
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 4: there was any evidence of the victim on your clothes.

910
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: Whatever they could figure out. You know, Yeah, they were

911
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 3: trying to tie me to the scene through Now, DNA

912
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 3: didn't exist back then, so they were trying to pull

913
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: me in with forensic evidence and none of that worked.

914
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 3: So right after they made that announcement, out of the blue,

915
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 3: my lawyers got a phone call from a reporter at

916
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: the Washington Post Spencer's shoe. He's working on this big

917
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 3: expose of the FBI Lab and their hair nowsis section.

918
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 3: So he wanted to talk to us because I was

919
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 3: the Maryland case that Michael Malone was involved in. So

920
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: my lawyers are like, well, you know, we're in court,

921
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: we can't talk about the case. And so the conversation continued,

922
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 3: and long story short on that he had my file,

923
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: the file that we couldn't get. He had it. He

924
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 3: got it through Freedom Information Act again years later, but

925
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 3: he has it. So there's two things in that file

926
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: that we never knew about. The first is after the

927
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 3: Inspector General's report was done on the FBI Lab, the

928
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 3: FBI Lab, that was a public report. What nobody knew

929
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: is the FBI Lab conducted their own internal investigation. After that,

930
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: they went out and hired forensic scientists to come in

931
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: and review their own agent's work, including agent Malone my case.

932
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: So there's a report in my file from this outside expert.

933
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: His report basically just says no way, there's no way

934
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 3: that Malone could have testified the way he did in

935
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 3: my trial. And he even raised the doubt that Malone

936
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 3: actually even did the test himself. So there's this report,

937
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: and then the other document that's in there is a

938
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 3: letter again from nineteen ninety nine from the FBI to

939
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: the state's attorney saying, there's a problem in the Huffington

940
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: case with the hair. You might want to notify either

941
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 3: mister Huffington or his attorneys. Nineteen ninety nine. Now, remember

942
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: what happens in two thousand and three when I go

943
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 3: to test the hair. What's the first thing the state does?

944
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 4: Try to destroy it. Now that makes sense because they knew,

945
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 4: they knew four years earlier, and that here we are.

946
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: Fourteen years later just finding this out.

947
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 4: So the FBI went to the.

948
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 3: State, They sent the letter to the state. Now the

949
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: state and that's an open court, an open court, and

950
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: this I'll never forget or forget. He sat in open

951
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: court and try to tell the judge that he had

952
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: notified me. Now do you think not to take me

953
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 3: out of the equation. You think anybody in prison would

954
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: have sat there for another fifteen years of that information

955
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: and not used it. Like where's the logic of this?

956
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 3: Like he claims, he claims he sent it to the

957
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: Public Defender's office. I've been represented by Roopes and Gray

958
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 3: for twenty five years. He knows that. He claims he

959
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 3: sent it to the Innocence Project. We talked to them.

960
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: They'd never heard of him. So where did you send it?

961
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: How is it You can go in there and literally

962
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: is an officer to the court. And I'll say it now,

963
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: you lied. You know to the court. You're an officer

964
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: of the court. You lied. It's not the first time

965
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 3: you've lied. You lied, and that cover up cost me

966
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: an extra fourteen years of my life. And when people

967
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: ask why I'm not bitter, I will tell you that

968
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: part right there. I'm bitter about because I lost my

969
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 3: mom like five years before I came home. We talked

970
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: about this earlier today, Like don't run from the truth.

971
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 3: Let the truth just be itself, Like you have an obligation,

972
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: you're elected official, you have an oath that you're sworn to.

973
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 3: Just let the truth come out, Let your ego get

974
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 3: on the side. Stop with the win loss record and

975
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: all that. Just let the truth come out. We the

976
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: DNA tested that back then if it came back, it's mine.

977
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 3: You win your case, it's over with. But either way,

978
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 3: the truth comes out, and that I can't get that

979
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: time back with my mother. I can't recover what I

980
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: lost with the extra fourteen years that that cover up

981
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: cost me. And to sit there and blatantly tell the

982
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 3: judge like, oh, I did all my due diligence, that's bullshit.

983
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: You didn't, your liar, and your name's Joe Castley and

984
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: your liar, And that's how it is. I can say

985
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: that now because I'm free and clear of that system.

986
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's impossible to understand what motivates people to bathe

987
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 4: in that way. I'll hear another one hundred or two

988
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 4: hundred of these stories and I still won't understand it.

989
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 4: I don't think any of us ever can. But it happens,

990
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 4: and it happens not infrequently, and people need to know that.

991
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: Just don't stand in the way of an opportunity for

992
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: truth to come out. Look, we get too caught up

993
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 3: in our own personalities and egos and it should be

994
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 3: a system of laws rather than a man. And that

995
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: comes out of the JC cree that's one of the

996
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: stands of the government should be, you know, laws rather

997
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: than a men. When we put our own personalities and

998
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 3: egos into that, that's where the system gets derailed. Like

999
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 3: I said, we had a chance to fix this in

1000
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. We should have fixed it, shouldn't. It

1001
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: took till twenty thirteen, actually till twenty eighteen to fix it,

1002
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 3: because I mean, at the end of the day, I

1003
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 3: still had to fight even with this coming out. And

1004
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: so what ends up happening is they scramble and instead

1005
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 3: of letting it go to my lab, the FBI themselves

1006
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 3: decided to test it. They tell us ahead of time

1007
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: it's going to totally consume the sample. So of course

1008
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 3: my conspiracy theories. I'm like, they're just going to say

1009
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: it's mine. I'm not even gonna be able to send

1010
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 3: it to our lab they can confirm or.

1011
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: Deny because the hair is fragile, it's old, it's gone,

1012
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 4: it's a piece of hair. And that's something that's been

1013
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 4: as you've been talking, I've been sitting here thinking with

1014
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 4: that like, what an amazing phenomenon that your life is

1015
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: hanging in the balance of two hairs, and those hairs

1016
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 4: have to be brought from one place to another. If

1017
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 4: there's a car accident, if somebody loses it, if somebody

1018
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 4: goes off the I mean a lot of things can

1019
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 4: go wrong when that thing's being transported, Your life's being

1020
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 4: transported with it. And they're fucking hairs. I mean, you know,

1021
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 4: you're being told that it's going to degrade them to

1022
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 4: the point that they're useless when we tested, So this

1023
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 4: really you talked about Hail Mary, this is it, but

1024
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 4: it ain't a football game.

1025
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 3: No, you know. Luckily, they did it as a peer review,

1026
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 3: so it's like a surgeon operating with other surgeons watching

1027
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: because this is Michael Malone and it's so scandalous. This

1028
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 3: guy's this guy's infamous for just screwing people's lives. It's

1029
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: just terrible what he's gotten away with. But in this case,

1030
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 3: they tested it and it wasn't my DNA, So you

1031
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 3: would think, slam dunk, we're done, we're out of here. Nope.

1032
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 3: I had to go back and then prove that that

1033
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 3: would have made a difference. They fought us on that.

1034
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: Luckily the judge, I was fortunate that he didn't have

1035
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: an ego and he looked at it for what it was.

1036
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 3: So I want to rid of actual innocence, which meant

1037
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: that they took away my victions and my sentence, But

1038
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: it also meant that he's set it for new trial.

1039
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 3: Now here's the same prosecutor's been in office for forty years.

1040
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 3: His career started around the same time as my case.

1041
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 3: He's kind of his parallel course throughout the whole time.

1042
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 3: Who won't let go?

1043
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 4: So right? Your case probably helped propel him to a

1044
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 4: long career that he enjoyed.

1045
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 3: I you know, yeah, I mean, you know, I think

1046
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 3: that he has a history of abusing his power and

1047
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 3: the system. And so I ended up that they set

1048
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 3: a bail and it's half a million dollars cash bails. Again,

1049
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 3: here I am sitting there after thirty two years. How's

1050
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: that going to work? But it worked the help of

1051
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 3: a couple of friends, I was able to post that

1052
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: bail and I came home and the whole time I've

1053
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 3: been home for four years, just as of December seventh

1054
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 3: is over. You know, as of January the first, I'm

1055
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 3: not on any kind of pro probation supervision. But for

1056
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 3: the four years that I've been home, I've had one

1057
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 3: foot on a banana. So you know, I've been really

1058
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: blessed in the fact that, you know, I've been able

1059
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: to launch a career and find some success in some

1060
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 3: degree of a voice out here. All the while with

1061
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 3: that's still hanging over my head, I've got an active

1062
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 3: prosecution or persecution going on trying to put me back

1063
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 3: in prison for the rest of my life.

1064
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 4: So and this prosecutor so driven he actually delayed his

1065
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 4: own retirement just to get a chance to prosecute you again.

1066
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: Well, he'd offered me a deal right before that plead

1067
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 3: guilty and it would all go away time served, and

1068
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 3: he announced his retirement and then I can't say that

1069
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 3: it's definitely coincidental, but I will say this, when I

1070
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: said no to the deal, within two days he took

1071
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 3: his retirement back.

1072
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 4: So let's talk a little bit about what's been happening

1073
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 4: since you got out, because these four years, I mean,

1074
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 4: do you sleep, because I mean you're on so many

1075
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 4: boards and different organizations. You know what, that got it

1076
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 4: right in front of me and read it. So John's

1077
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 4: a Committee member, the Greater Baltimore Committee's Coalition for a

1078
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 4: Second Chance. He's also on the board of the Mayor's

1079
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 4: Green Network Leadership Team, the Governor's Office of Crime Control

1080
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 4: and Prevention, Collateral Consequences Work Group, Baltimore City Police Department,

1081
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 4: Community Collaborative Division, re Entry Advisory Committee, the DHCDS Keep

1082
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 4: Maryland Beautiful Steering Committee, and Pivot A Pathway for Women

1083
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 4: from Prison to Purpose. I mean, I'm tired from reading that. Okay,

1084
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 4: what in the hell is going on? What are he's

1085
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 4: trying to improve?

1086
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 3: Well, once again, it's about to dash. I mean, so

1087
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 3: when I came home, obviously I'm on bail and I

1088
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 3: don't know what the future holds. I'm very cynical a

1089
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 3: bat the criminal justice system. I don't trust it, and

1090
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 3: I fully expect they're going to come and hit me

1091
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 3: with the butterfly net and snatch me back like oops,

1092
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 3: we made a mistake or something, you know. So it

1093
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 3: was very surreal getting out here, and then I got

1094
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 3: very I keep saying lucky. Lucky, he's not the right word.

1095
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: I was blessed, and I made a few good steps

1096
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 3: and involved myself with some good people, and I have

1097
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: to say, I got lucky because I came through the

1098
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 3: very program that I now administer, which is Project Server,

1099
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: our rapid attachment to work model. It's a re entry component.

1100
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: But I was only there for like three months because,

1101
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: like you say, I present myself a little different and

1102
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: people tend to look at me and think, oh, he's okay,

1103
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 3: and not think, well, you know, he's been gone for

1104
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 3: thirty two years, he might need some service himself. So

1105
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 3: I came into Living Classrooms Foundations the organization, and they

1106
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 3: gave me business cards in a title, and I was

1107
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 3: a client advocate event coordinator, and so I didn't do

1108
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 3: our normal go out in the alleys and clean and

1109
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: do the normal Project Serve work. I literally was working

1110
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 3: with the members that were in Project Serve and creating

1111
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 3: their calend of activities and things like that. But there

1112
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 3: wasn't a funning stream for its, so I needed to

1113
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 3: move on. So after three months, I interviewed for another nonprofit,

1114
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 3: Second Chance in ball or More, and went to work

1115
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 3: for them. And when I left them, you know, I

1116
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 3: was a salaried employee and doing well and they were

1117
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 3: a great organization, were very supportive. But Living Classrooms has

1118
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 3: sort of called me back. The director of Workforce Development

1119
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 3: position was open. Honestly didn't think that it was, you know,

1120
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 3: something I could apply for because you know, I was

1121
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 3: a man with no future. You know, I don't bring

1122
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 3: that future to the table. I'm literally still under trial

1123
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 3: and or indictment and on bail. And they know that,

1124
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 3: and they looked past that and felt that I was

1125
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 3: suited for the job and the right one for the job,

1126
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 3: and gave me that opportunity, knowing full well that my

1127
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: world could have ended at any time. You know, I

1128
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 3: could have been sent back to prison, and they entrusted

1129
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 3: a department millions of dollars of budget and staff and

1130
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 3: everything else. So it became even more important to me

1131
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 3: to honor that, you know, to show that their faith

1132
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 3: in me was was correct and that you know, I

1133
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 3: was going to redeem that and make a difference in

1134
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 3: that role. So I don't know, it just comes down

1135
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 3: to the dash, you know, it really does, like how

1136
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 3: much time you have, and the Lord knows any of

1137
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: us could walk out of here and get hit by

1138
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 3: a bus. But it's about trying to make a difference.

1139
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 3: And that's just the path that I've always been on.

1140
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 3: Like it's important to me, you know, especially to redeem

1141
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 3: Like I had a law firm Ropes and Gray, I

1142
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 3: should mention this who believed in me and gave me

1143
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 3: twenty five years of pro bono legal services. Now think

1144
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 3: about the cost value of that. And they did it

1145
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 3: because they believed in me and they believed in my case.

1146
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 3: So now how do I repay that? They're not sitting

1147
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 3: there waiting to garnish my check. You know, they're telling

1148
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: me go live my life and be successful. So again,

1149
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 3: the only way to repay that debt is to be

1150
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: successful and to redeem their faith in me and why

1151
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 3: they did what they did. And then I guess the

1152
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 3: mantle becomes even more big because the more I go

1153
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 3: out there and become involved in these various committees or

1154
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to speak, then you become representative of

1155
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 3: what re entry can look like. So now I can't

1156
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 3: mess up. Like you know, I'm visible, I'm publicly visible

1157
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 3: as others are. I'm not the poster child here, but

1158
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 3: I think that brings more responsibility that if I were

1159
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 3: to mess up, then that gives all the naysayers even

1160
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 3: more ammunitions. This is why we don't do this. This

1161
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 3: is why we don't give jobs or work with re entry.

1162
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 3: So you keep moving it forward. You have no choice

1163
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 3: but to the more, the more you add, the more

1164
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 3: it becomes important that you utilize your voice everywhere you

1165
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 3: can to make a difference. I go back into prisons

1166
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 3: now to introduce the guys inside with here's an opportunity

1167
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 3: when you come home, you can come get trained in

1168
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 3: solar installations and we have jobs for you. Just being

1169
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 3: able to sort of coalesce those folks and to get

1170
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 3: that moving in the right direction and to start, you know,

1171
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 3: having more in depth conversation about why and how we

1172
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 3: can make a difference with the whole re entry models important.

1173
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 4: To me now, and it's great you're here because it's

1174
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 4: so important for people to hear that message and to

1175
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 4: take a different view of people like yourselves, innocent or

1176
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 4: otherwise who were formally incarcerated, and to reach out and

1177
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: give them a chance. I mean, I think that my

1178
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 4: experience is that that community of formally incarcerated people will

1179
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 4: work their ass off because they value every day and

1180
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 4: every minute. They take nothing for granted. Before we close,

1181
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 4: if you could just talk for a second about the

1182
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 4: organization you're working with, it you're trying to raise money for,

1183
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 4: and how incredible their success rate is at keeping people

1184
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 4: from recidivating.

1185
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 3: Living Classrooms amazing, amazing organizations that I work for right now.

1186
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 3: It's a nonprofit in Baltimore. We work primarily in East

1187
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 3: Baltimore through our Target Investment Zone, where we've taken a

1188
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 3: two and a half mile square area of East Baltimore

1189
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 3: and we are transforming, trying to disrupt the cycle poverty

1190
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 3: and UPLI multi generational approach to health and wellness, education

1191
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 3: and workforce development. I can't express enough gratitude. You know,

1192
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 3: these folks gave me an opportunity and a chance and

1193
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 3: supported me throughout this entire journey.

1194
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 4: For people who want to help, they can give money

1195
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 4: to Living Classrooms absolutely. You know that Living Classrooms dot org.

1196
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 3: Is Living Classroesfoundation dot org. You know we're nonprofit. You

1197
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: know we do a lot of work. It's not just

1198
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 3: re entry. We do you know, after school programming, we

1199
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 3: do early childhood development. Look at our website and it will

1200
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 3: show you how you can make a donation. We appreciate

1201
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 3: that support.

1202
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 4: So once again is www dot Living Classrooms Foundation dot org.

1203
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 4: I'm going to give money. I hope you'll join me

1204
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 4: and do so too. And now is time for always

1205
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 4: the highlights of the of the show, which is where

1206
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 4: I stopped talking, and just turn it over to you

1207
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 4: for any closing thoughts that you want to share.

1208
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I want to thank you for

1209
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 3: having me and inviting me to come out here and

1210
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 3: be a part of the show. I use my time

1211
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 3: just to say kudos to YouTube. Jason. I mean, I

1212
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 3: think this is so crucial, so key and important what

1213
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 3: you're doing and bringing the attention that you bring not

1214
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 3: just the exign reads, but to the whole criminal justice system,

1215
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 3: the families against mandatory minimums that I know you're a

1216
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 3: big proponent of. So if I can just flip the

1217
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: script and just say to everybody listening, like this guy,

1218
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 3: like he introduced me as doing all this, trust me,

1219
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: I'm not even in his league for what he does.

1220
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 3: I don't know when he can possibly sleep. So Jason's

1221
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 3: going to expose you through this podcast and everything that

1222
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 3: he's doing. It's just follow him on Instagram. That's what

1223
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you right now. Follow him and

1224
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 3: see the different things he's doing and understand that you

1225
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 3: two can have an impact you know, this is one guy,

1226
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 3: regardless of him being a record mogul or whatever title

1227
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 3: we want to give him, it's one guy making a difference.

1228
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 3: And honestly, we all can make a difference. It takes

1229
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 3: a lot of one guys and one woman out there

1230
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 3: to make these things happen. And I think the lesson

1231
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 3: that we can all take away from this is that

1232
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 3: we're all empowered to do that. We just got to

1233
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 3: take action.

1234
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 4: Well, John, all I can say is thank you for that.

1235
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 4: I'm humbled and honored that you're here, and thank you

1236
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 4: again for coming in and sharing your experience, strength and

1237
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 4: hope with our audience. You've been listening to a very

1238
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 4: moving episode for me personally of wrongful conviction.

1239
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, and thanks to the Innocence

1240
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 3: Project as well. Couldn't a been to do this with Adams,

1241
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 3: so thank you.

1242
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1243
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 4: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

1244
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 4: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1245
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1246
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1247
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 4: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1248
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 4: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1249
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1250
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1251
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 4: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1252
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1253
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 4: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one