1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Joining us now is Darryl Cooper. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: He's the host of the Martyr Made podcasts, also the 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: co host of The Unraveling with Jocko Willingk. Hey, somebody 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: I've been looking to in particular for annalys in analysis, 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: for education on this conflict since the hostilities began. So 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: welcome to the show. It's really great to see you. 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 4: It's great to talk to you guys. Been a big 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 4: fan for a long time. Thank you, Derek. Yeah, really 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 4: very much appreciated. 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: So Darryl, can you just layout One of the things 19 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: that I have really found educational from you is a 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: history of the Israeli military, the IDF and its most 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: recent engagements, both in the Lebanon and in terms of 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: the past Gaza wars. What can we learn from past 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: IDF activities about how this forthcoming invasion might go, what 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: it will look like, and what are the actual military 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: capabilities of the IDF Despite their you know, I think 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 2: very big reputation for operational excellence. 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 4: It's a well earned reputation for operational excellence that they 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 4: that they earned in wars. And this is important with 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 4: with enemy Arab armies. Fighting Hamas in Gaza on their 30 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 4: home turf amidst rubble and tunnels, or fighting Hesbalon in 31 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 4: the rubble of southern Lebanon is a much different task. 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 4: And as we found out in Afghanistan and Iraq, it's 33 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 4: it's a very difficult task to do in a way 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 4: that doesn't provoke such a backlash that it makes everything 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 4: you're doing counterproductive. And we ran into that problem very 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 4: early on in Iraq after the four Blackwater guys got 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 4: lynched in Fallujah and Bush sent in the Marines and 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 4: kind of gave him a broad mandate to go retaliate. 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 4: And of course, if you tell Marines to go retaliate 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 4: for something, they're going to strap on their helmets and 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: go do it. And we destroyed that city and it 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 4: created a lot of animosity in Iraq, so that by 43 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: two thousand and six, the Iraqi government was not prepared 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 4: to allow us to do something like that again. And 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 4: so my partner at Jako he led the seal unit 46 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 4: that went into Ramadi with a totally different operational approach 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 4: to counterinsurgency, where they went in blocked by block, worked 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 4: with the individuals who lived in that city who were 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 4: under siege by these mostly foreigny hottists, and actually won 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 4: them over in a long process. The difficulty the IDF's 51 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 4: going to have is these are not foreign gie hottists 52 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 4: who have come over and are oppressing the people of Gaza. 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 4: These are representatives of the Gozen people themselves. However widespread 54 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 4: their support for Hamas militancy may or may not be, 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 4: these are their cousins and brothers, and so the Israelis 56 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 4: are not going to be able to They're not going 57 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 4: to be able to turn these people against their own 58 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 4: in the same way we might have hoped to do 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 4: with the Hearts and Minds campaign. It's extremely difficult, you know, 60 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 4: in two thousand and six and in twenty fourteen, people 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 4: tend to have even a one sided perspective on how 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 4: those conflicts went because at the end, Gazo was destroyed, 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 4: Southern Lebanon was destroyed. The IDF had taken, you know, 64 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 4: some casualties, but nothing that jumps off the page, and 65 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 4: so it looks like it was just a one sided beatdown. 66 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: But that's actually not what happened. When the IDF went 67 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 4: into Southern Lebanon in two thousand and six, they found 68 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 4: that Hesbloh was prepared for that kind of a fight, 69 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 4: and Hesbela innovated a lot of tactics. They got right 70 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 4: up close and grabbed the belt buckle of the idea 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 4: in order to mitigate Israel's close air support, their artillery, 72 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 4: their rocket fire, things that Hesbela really didn't have any 73 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 4: ability to defend themselves against without air defense. Well, in 74 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 4: twenty fourteen, nobody really thought that Hamas had that kind 75 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 4: of military capability. After two thousand and six, I used 76 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 4: to work in Israel a lot. I'd go there and 77 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 4: work with the IDF on and contract personnel on their 78 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 4: air defense issues. And after two thousand and six, they 79 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 4: were never going to make that mistake again of underestimating Hesbola. 80 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 4: They understood they were dealing with a real military threat. 81 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 4: But I always found in the ten years or so 82 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 4: that I would go over there for work that they 83 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 4: continued to underestimate Hamas. And even in twenty fourteen when 84 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 4: they went in and had the exact same thing happened. 85 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 4: Really Hamas employed the same tactics tunnels, pop up, ambushes, 86 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 4: IEDs of course everywhere, and the Israelis got stalled in 87 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 4: Gaza City and had a really hard time and they 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 4: eventually just pulled back and kind of destroyed whole sections 89 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 4: of the city from the air. And that invited, you 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 4: outrage among the people in Gaza, and it invited outrage 91 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 4: in the international community. And so as we go into 92 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 4: this situation, you know, those two experiences are definitely, I 93 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 4: can tell you for a fact, are definitely front of 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 4: mind for the Israelis and their military planners. A lot 95 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: of their boosters overseas can raw raw the IDF and 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 4: just sort of focus on their capabilities when they're at 97 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 4: full strength, and they are considerable. But the people who 98 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 4: are actually planning this assault, they understand this is a 99 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: very very risky operation is going to be very difficult. 100 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: Well, and Darrel, you said something to the effect of 101 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: like it's going to be difficult not to void a backlash, 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: but I mean, in a sense, hasn't that ship already sailed? 103 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean they've already hit. They've already decimated something like 104 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: forty two percent of Gaza, hit, seven thousand targets, There's 105 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: thousands of civilians killed. The whole population is under a 106 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: complete siege. You know, no water, no fuel, no electricity, 107 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: no food, et cetera. So hasn't that ship already sort 108 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: of sailed? 109 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 4: Yeah? And you know, in the dozen or so years 110 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 4: that I probably made in about twelve years, I probably 111 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 4: made twenty twenty five trips to Israel to work in 112 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: my capacity as add engineer, and I would talk to 113 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 4: the people there. I had friends there, I would talk 114 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 4: to the other military personnel and contract personnel. And what 115 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 4: I noticed over the course of the time I would 116 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 4: go there, this was maybe from two thousand and seven 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 4: until about twenty nineteen, is that the appetite for peace 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 4: among the people I was talking to was getting smaller 119 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: and smaller and smaller, and they were becoming much more radical, 120 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: much more dehumanizing in their leanguth which toward the Palestinians, 121 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 4: and much more convinced that there is no there's no 122 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 4: way forward in this situation other than violence. And that's 123 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 4: very discouraging because you see that on display right now. 124 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 4: And this is something that we've always seen with net 125 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 4: and Yahoo's governments, you know where for years Israel look 126 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 4: Israel for decades. People need to understand they've been they've 127 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 4: been dealing with attacks, not at this scale of the 128 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 4: one that recently happened, but just as brutal and just 129 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 4: as savage. They've been dealing with this stuff for decades. 130 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 4: And we need to understand that over here. It is 131 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 4: different than anything any other any Western country can really understand. 132 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 4: Like when you go back to the late seventies and 133 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 4: early eighties, these kind of brutal attacks, families killed, we're 134 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 4: happening on a monthly basis, sometimes sometimes, and so we 135 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 4: have to keep that in mind. And yet the Israeli 136 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 4: governments back then, we're always they never looked at this 137 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 4: as you know they would they would have targeted assassination 138 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 4: campaigns to go after PLO officials and militants. They would 139 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 4: take out specific people who were planning attacks. This was 140 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: an intelligence and special forces led situation. And ever since 141 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 4: net Yahu's come in, he's just looked at the Palestinian 142 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 4: issue as a job for the regular military. It's a 143 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: job for the artillery corps in the Air Force. And 144 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 4: you just can't fight a war like this like that 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: unless you're willing to go completely medieval in a way 146 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 4: that is not it's not acceptable in the modern world, 147 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 4: not if you want a seat at the table of 148 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: modern first world countries. And it's the dilemma that Israel's 149 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 4: in because the faction around net and Yahoo, you know, 150 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 4: the very the very kind of dirty little secret, and 151 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: it's not much of a secret. In Israel. People talk 152 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 4: about this much more openly. There's a lot of issues 153 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 4: like this that people are actually more open and nuanced 154 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 4: about in Israel than you find when you when you 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: talk to a lot of their boosters overseas. Yeah, and 156 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 4: that's you know, Look, I understand why people got upset 157 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 4: when Israel came in for criticism so early after this attack, 158 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: because I told Jacko when we were talking that Israel 159 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 4: one of the problems that they had that they had 160 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 4: to solve was that they're on the clock right now, 161 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 4: because what's going to happen is right now. Everybody is 162 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 4: sympathetic toward the Israelis, but after a couple of weeks 163 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: of only seeing Palestinian babies being pulled out of the rubble. 164 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 4: Those memories are going to fade, and they're going to 165 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 4: be replaced by these newer ones, and people are going 166 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 4: to start to put pressure from around the world on 167 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 4: Israel to wrap this up. And Israel really didn't even 168 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 4: get from the general public and in the rhetorical space 169 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: even a week or two to really operate with impunity. 170 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 4: And I think that's a step forward because of the 171 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 4: way net Nyanghu's governments have acted in the past. But 172 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 4: I understand you didn't want to hear any criticism of 173 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 4: American foreign policy. On September twelfth, two thousand and one. 174 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 4: Half our country was looking to George Bush had a 175 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 4: ninety percent approval rating, and we were looking to kick 176 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 4: somebody's butt around the world. I understand that the feeling 177 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 4: and the mentality, and yet no serious discussion of nine 178 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 4: to eleven can happen without talking about America's imperial foreign policy, 179 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 4: and no discussion of the Israel Palestine conflict or even 180 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 4: the attack that happened recently. And I understand it's a 181 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: tough needle to thread, but even of the attack recently. 182 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 4: No serious discussion could be had about that without coming 183 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 4: back to one basic fact, and that is that millions 184 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 4: of Palestinian people have lived under military occupation for almost 185 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 4: six decades. That is not it is simply an untenable 186 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 4: and unacceptable state of affairs that cannot go on. And 187 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 4: everything else. That's the context that every discussion about this 188 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 4: issue will eventually come back to. You know, these people 189 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 4: are stateless refugees. They're subject to search and arrest without 190 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: due process. Their skies and their roads are patrolled by 191 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 4: a foreign military. You just imagine that their lawful land, 192 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 4: the land everybody agrees is theirs. You know, the whole 193 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 4: international community in Israeli law as well, continues to be 194 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 4: colonized by heavily armed, often hostile, and fanatical Israeli settlers. 195 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 4: Most of those settlements, again are illegal even according to 196 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 4: Israeli law, and yet they continue to expand, and Palestinians 197 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: who resist their expansion end up on the business end 198 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 4: of the Israeli defense forces. Gaza is surrounded by a 199 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 4: wall that is patrolled by remote controlled machine gun robots. 200 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 4: And that's not I'm not joking that this is a reality. 201 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 4: Surrounded by a wall patrolled by remote remotely controlled robot 202 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 4: machine guns pointed inward toward the inmates. You know, Israel 203 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 4: controls how much water, how much power, how much food 204 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 4: and medicine and construction materials are allowed into Gaza. In 205 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, thousands of unarmed Palestinian protesters were shot by 206 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 4: snipers for protesting too close to the border fence. The 207 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 4: initial orders that the Israeli snipers had were shoot was 208 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 4: shoot anybody who came within three hundred meters of the fence. 209 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 4: Eventually they got reduced to one hundred meters, but thousands 210 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 4: and thousands of people, unarmed people were shot. There are 211 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: videos of there's a video of a man in a 212 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 4: wheelchair being shot. There are kids, women, medical personnel, and 213 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 4: so these are the things that these people are dealing with. 214 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 4: And you can say that the Palestinians deserve it, or 215 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 4: the Israelis have no choice, anything you want. But when 216 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 4: violence occurs, I think there is a sense in which 217 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 4: the party that the power that is in charge of them, 218 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 4: that the occupying power always bears at least some of 219 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 4: the primary responsibility. And look, I'm not playing holier than now. Okay, 220 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 4: my country America has destroyed whole nations for criminal reasons 221 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 4: in the last few decades. If Israel's occupation was ended, 222 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: the settlers were repatriated to Israel, and the Palestinians formed 223 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 4: a state along the borders agreed to by everyone except 224 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 4: for Israel. Right now, maybe they would still be violent, 225 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: and then we could have a totally different conversation, a 226 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 4: different conversation altogether. But that's not the situation. You know, 227 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 4: in this reality, a superpower is keeping millions of stateless 228 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,599 Speaker 4: refugees under permanent military occupation, and that is the context 229 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 4: in which everything else takes place, and discussions of the 230 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 4: conflict will always come back to that basic fact as 231 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: long as the occupation continues. 232 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: I feel compelled Daryl to just be like, this is 233 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: We're not talking to a big lib here, you know, 234 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: We're not talking to even though some of this maybe 235 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: often I think rhetoric Lee would remind someone I don't 236 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: know of, like a Gnome chom skin. 237 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: I can I address that very quickly, so please? Yeah, yeah, 238 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 4: So I'm certainly not a big lib. Some people have 239 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 4: said my politics are off to the right of Attila 240 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 4: the Hunt, and that's probably true in a sense. But 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 4: a lot of its context. You know, I'm used to 242 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 4: talking to Americans, and Americans have only ever, throughout their 243 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 4: entire lives, ever heard one side of this story, and 244 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 4: so I end up trying to tell on the other 245 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: side of the story and show them the other perspective. 246 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 4: And that often means that when I talk about this issue, 247 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 4: I'm coming off as if I'm one sidedly sympathetic to 248 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 4: the Palestinians, and that's definitely not the case. Israel is 249 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 4: a great country, Israel. These people carved a prosperous country 250 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 4: that is safe even for their Arab residents, and is 251 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 4: a pleasant place to live. If you had to live 252 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 4: in the Middle East, Israel is probably the place most 253 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: people would choose to go. And deserve a lot of 254 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 4: credit for that. Is Rae israelis are great people, uh in. 255 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 4: Israel is a great country, and they're an ally of 256 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 4: the United States. But because they are all of those things, 257 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 4: that's why I care more about what they do and 258 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 4: how they behave just you know, these are our guys, 259 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 4: These are our these are our people, And you know, 260 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 4: I cared a lot more about the Abu Gray prison 261 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: torture scandal and the conduct of US troops there. Then 262 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 4: I cared about the heinous behavior of al Qaeda in 263 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: Iraq throughout the entire war, because those are my guys 264 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 4: and I and I the the israelis your book. You 265 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 4: want to be part of the West, part of the civilized, 266 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: democratic first World countries. There there you have to conduct 267 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 4: yourself in a certain way. And I understand that you're 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: in that that you're in a pretty unique situation. But 269 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 4: that's the thing about principles is unique situations don't get 270 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 4: to excuse them. Daryl. 271 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about what the future scenarios 272 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: might look like, what you think is most likely. From 273 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: where I stand, I see the United States very much 274 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: prepared for a broader regional war and basically resigned to it. 275 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 4: They think it's going to happen. 276 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: You very aptly have pointed out what actual war with 277 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: Iran is going to look like based upon everything that 278 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: you've seen, the current incursion, the tanks going into Gaza, 279 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: it seems like some invasion of that is likely, which 280 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: means some sort of backlash is likely. Just based upon 281 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: your experience and all that in the region, the current 282 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: context and also Hama's response to the US and all 283 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: that what do you see as the most likely scenarios 284 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: to play out. 285 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 4: I think that based on the weapons systems that we've 286 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 4: been sending over there, we are we're probably looking to 287 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 4: deter intervention by hes Belah. It primarily has Belah, but 288 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 4: Iran also as is Reel goes in and things start 289 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 4: to get more intense during the ground invasion. I people 290 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: need to understand that a war against Iran, a general 291 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 4: war in the Middle East, this is it would not 292 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 4: this would not be a war that went the way 293 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 4: the Iraq War went. And that's not to say that 294 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 4: the United States, if we went into total war, you know, 295 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 4: world War two mode, couldn't defeat Iran. Of course we could, 296 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 4: but that's not really the it's not really a useful conversation. 297 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 4: You know all of the bases in Kuwait and Kata 298 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 4: and Bahrain that we used to stage our invasion of Iraq, 299 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 4: where for six months, seven eight months ahead of time, 300 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 4: we were flying in all our tanks and they're all 301 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 4: sitting right there. Those are all within easy reach of 302 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 4: tens of thousands of Iranian missiles and rockets. They would 303 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: all come under fire. The US embassy in Iraq would 304 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: probably be overrun, the Saudi oil fields would probably would 305 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: probably go up in flames, and the Gulf itself in 306 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 4: the Straits of Hormuz would become unsafe for ship And 307 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 4: this is a this is a nightmare scenario, and everybody 308 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 4: needs to understand and that this is not something we 309 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 4: should be looking forward to or cheering for at all. 310 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: One question I had for you is, you know, there's 311 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: a lot of rhetoric from the net Nyahu government, and 312 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: there's a lot of reporting about US officials reacting to 313 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: this idea that they don't really have a plan for 314 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: what comes after the ground invasion. You know, they have 315 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: this stated objective which I don't even think they really believe, 316 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: of rooting out Hamas. I don't actually think that they 317 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: believe they can accomplish that. As you and Jocko pointed out, 318 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: their actions thus far are not really aimed at accomplishing that. 319 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: I think what's happening now is more just about you know, 320 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: retribution and giving the Israeli public what they want to 321 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: see as a result of Hamas's horrific attacks. Do you 322 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: actually buy that they don't have a plan, because it's 323 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: not like Netnyahu and his allies haven't had a lot 324 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: of thoughts about what they would ideally like to do 325 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: with regard to God, so what they would ideally like 326 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: to do with the West Bank. It's not like they 327 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: haven't laid out in detail how they would push Palestinians 328 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: on their land or you know, subjugate them with a 329 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: second class citizen status or you know, in prison in them, etcetera, 330 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: and completely annex their territory. And Netna, who was at 331 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: the UN with a map of Israel that didn't include 332 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: Gaza or the West Bank whatsoever. So do you think 333 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: that they really are as clueless as they're kind of 334 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: playing for the cameras right now? 335 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 4: You know, not not entirely simply because and this sort 336 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 4: of goes to the to the question people have been 337 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 4: asking about how this could have happened from an intelligence 338 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 4: failure standpoint, How could such a such a scaled attack 339 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 4: involving so many people have slipped beneath the notice of 340 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 4: some of the world's most most capable intelligence agencies and 341 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 4: one of the most heavily surveiled strips of land in 342 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: the world. And I think part of the answer to 343 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: that is that Netna, who he would he would like 344 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 4: to just ignore Gaza. He kind of looked at Hamas says, 345 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 4: they could you know, they can pop up out of 346 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 4: a tunnel somewhere and kidnap an Israeli soldier and we 347 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 4: can deal with that, but they're not any kind of 348 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 4: a of a large scale military threat that we really 349 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 4: have to take seriously. Net Yaho wanted to focus on 350 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 4: the West Bank and expanding settlements and continuing to make 351 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 4: the two state solution there untenable by creating facts on 352 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 4: the ground, and he wanted to kind of ignore Gaza 353 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 4: and there are you know, I'm sure you guys have 354 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 4: talked about this in the past, but the faction around 355 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 4: net and Yahoo has always been quite open, at least 356 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 4: when they're talking to other Israelis about the fact that 357 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 4: Hamas as an opponent of the two state solution, is 358 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 4: an unsavory ally of people like net Yahoo is, as 359 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 4: much as they not saying they support these people or 360 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 4: they're sending them weapons or anything like that. But you know, 361 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 4: Benjamin net Yahoo to the Israeli Kanessi a quote from him, 362 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: he said, anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of 363 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas in transferring 364 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 4: money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy to 365 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palacetine Indians in 366 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 4: the West Bank. It's impossible to reach an agreement with them. 367 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 4: Everyone knows this, and he's talking about Hamas here, But 368 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 4: we control the height of the flame. This is This 369 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 4: is the way a lot of the people around net 370 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 4: yah who look at Hamas, you know that, and and 371 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 4: and others who are critical of Hamas, critical of net Yahu, 372 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 4: like Ahud Barak, have have criticized the net yahou faction 373 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 4: for this position. And so in a lot of ways, 374 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: I think just just just the same way that we 375 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 4: have thought that we could get away with funding jihadist 376 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 4: groups around the world to fight wars that the American 377 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 4: people were not going to agree to UH to send 378 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 4: American troops to go fight, and those groups eventually came 379 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 4: you know, the Frankenstein's monster eventually turned on its creator 380 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 4: and UH and and came back on us. There's an 381 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 4: element of that with Hamas. You know, Hamas didn't arise 382 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 4: in a vacuum. And this is something that a lot 383 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 4: of people don't understand. I think in the West is 384 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 4: people think of this as like a centuries or millennia 385 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: old religious war. And it is not this that makes 386 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 4: it seem intractable, and it feeds people on both sides 387 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 4: who say there's no solution but violence. But I've got 388 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 4: a photograph from a cafe in Jerusalem from nineteen thirteen, 389 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 4: the year before the First World War started, and it's 390 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 4: a picture of a band playing for the patrons in 391 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 4: the cafe, and the band consists of two Muslims, a Jew, 392 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 4: and a Christian. This is in nineteen thirteen, and this 393 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 4: would not have been abnormal in nineteen thirteen. This conflict 394 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 4: is only about a century old, and it is a 395 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: political conflict over disputed territory. That's it. We can bring 396 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 4: all the religious considerations into it. Maybe that intensifies the 397 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 4: complexity of the emotions relative to other disputes, but at 398 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 4: the end of the day, it's a dispute between two 399 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 4: groups of people laying claim to the same piece of land. 400 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: Darryl, I just want to say I appreciate your input 401 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 2: so much. We're going to keep listening Martyr made podcast. 402 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 2: Do you have anything else you want to play? Maybe 403 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: got a substack? I think Martin made substack as well. 404 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: He's got a twenty five hour or something serious on 405 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: the background of all of this, which I could not 406 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: recommend more same. You know, you've got book recommendations, You've 407 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: got a lot of stuff, such a wealth of knowledge 408 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 2: and information. I would love to have you back, and 409 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: we just can't appreciate you enough. 410 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 4: Thanks. Yeah, there is the substack, and I would just, 411 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 4: I guess ask everybody to remember that on both sides 412 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 4: as much as as much as it might not seem 413 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 4: like it, depending on who you're listening to, ninety nine 414 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 4: percent of the people on both sides are just regular people. 415 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 4: And that's the I've been to the West Bank, I've 416 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 4: talked to a lot of these people. I'm friends with 417 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 4: a lot of these people. I hear from them in emails. 418 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 4: These are just people and if you met them, they 419 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 4: could be your neighbors. And those are the people who 420 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 4: are involved in this conflict. So, you know, the extremists 421 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 4: in any conflict like this have a way of pulling 422 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 4: everyone else down to their level. Don't let that be 423 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 4: you great, fantastic point. 424 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, most important thing to keep in mind here. 425 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 426 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: Great to chat with you, guys. Guys, really excited to 427 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: be joined today by Nathan Thrahl. He is an American 428 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: author and sas and also really astute observer and analyst 429 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: of what has been going on between Israel and the 430 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: Palestinians for many years. He was actually the director of 431 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: the Arab Israeli Project at the International Crisis Group and 432 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: is out with a new book and we want to 433 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: talk about all of those things and much more. Great 434 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: to have you, Nathan. 435 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: Great to be here. Thank you. 436 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: So, first of all, just tell people a little bit 437 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: about your new book, Day in the Life of Abed's Lama, 438 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: Anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy. What brought you to want 439 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: to write the book, and then we can talk a 440 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: little bit about the reaction on the other side of that. 441 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I actually came to this story for 442 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: a number of reasons. One was just a personal and 443 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 3: emotional one. I live in Jerusalem, and the community where Abdslama, 444 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 3: the main protagonist of this book lives, is just two 445 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 3: miles away from me. And it's a walled ghetto. It's 446 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: walled on three sides, with a fourth side is a 447 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: separate kind of wall. There's a segregated road running alongside 448 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 3: of it, with a traffic on one side for Palestinians, 449 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 3: traffic on the other side for Israelis, and a big 450 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 3: wall running through the middle. So this walled ghetto is 451 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: partly inside the same city that I live in, and 452 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: I would pass by it on a daily or weekly 453 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: basis and hardly pay it any mind. And there was 454 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 3: an enormous tragedy which I'll describe in a moment, that 455 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 3: struck the members of this community, and after that I 456 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 3: couldn't stop thinking about the parents and the children inside 457 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: of it, and what a different life they live inside 458 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 3: my same city. So that was kind of the emotional reason. 459 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 3: There was also a higher order reason that I wanted 460 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 3: to write about something that happens all over the world, 461 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 3: happens every day, a tragic car accident, and not to 462 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 3: write about a war in Gaza or an invasion of 463 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 3: Janine or something that is more naturally the subject of 464 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 3: a journalist book, Because what I wanted was to draw 465 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: our attention to the ordinary, everyday lives of Palestinians and 466 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 3: Jews in this grossly unjust system that is continually leading 467 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 3: to more and more bloodshed. And my part of the 468 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: desire to write this book came out of a frustration 469 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: from seeing how the world turned its eyes to Israel 470 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: Palestine only when we had a spike in violence, a 471 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 3: war in Gaza. And when that happened, everybody would say, 472 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 3: we need to have a ceasefire and restore calm. But 473 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 3: what is the calm that we're restoring. The calm that 474 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: we're restoring is a deeply, deeply unjust system where seven 475 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 3: million Jews, seven million Palestinians all living under Israeli rule. 476 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: The vast majority of those Palestinians don't have basic civil rights. 477 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 3: And I wanted to describe that system and what it's 478 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: like to live in that system, and to understand that 479 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 3: we can't call for a restoration of calm when there's 480 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: a war in Gaza. We can't leave it at that. 481 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: We need to address that system and to undo that injustice, 482 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: which the United States is of course supporting. So the 483 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: story that I tell is of a magic car accident 484 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 3: that happened just outside of Jerusalem. I tell the story 485 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 3: of a man, Abid Salama, who lives in this world 486 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: ghetto that I described. His community is called a Nata. 487 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: Also within this world ghetto is the Shuafat refugee camp, 488 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: and one night Abd's son Mihlad asks him to go 489 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 3: and buy some treats for a kindergarten class trip that 490 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 3: he's taking the next day. And the next morning there's 491 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 3: a storm and me Lad boards his bus with his 492 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 3: kindergarten class. About fifty kindergarteners on this bus. On the 493 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: other side of the wall is the Jewish settlement of Pisgatzaev, 494 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: an East Jerusalem quote unquote neighborhood. Israel doesn't refer to 495 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: the East Jerusalem settlements as settlements, and often the US 496 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 3: also will refer to them as neighborhoods rather than settlements. 497 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: But Pisgatzev is just on the other side of this wall. 498 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 3: Are playgrounds there that these kids could not go to 499 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: because in this walled ghetto, half of the parents have 500 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: a blue idea that allows them to enter Jerusalem, half 501 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: of them have a green ida that prevents them from 502 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: entering Jerusalem. And the kids on this bus couldn't just 503 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: go to the nearby play area on the other side 504 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 3: of the wall, so instead they followed this winding path 505 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 3: of the wall to a distant play area near Rimala, 506 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 3: and as they passed a checkpoint. They were struck by 507 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: a giant semi trailer, a semi trailer that was going 508 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: back and forth from an East Jerusalem factory to a 509 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 3: settlement quarry where it was picking up stones that would 510 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: be brought to the factory. And these stones that are 511 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: extracted illegally for the natural resources of the West Bank. 512 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: They're used to pave the roads in Israel. And so 513 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: this semi trailer slams into the school bu us. The 514 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 3: bus flips over, it catches fire, and who is left 515 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: to deal with this bus in flames filled with kindergarteners 516 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: are all of the Palestinian bystanders, most of whom who 517 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 3: live on the other side of the wall. And the 518 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: bystanders are trying to rescue these soot covered kids from 519 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 3: this bus, and they're loading them into the backs of 520 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: their private vehicles. And again, the people who live in 521 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 3: this area, they have different colored IDs. Some have the 522 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 3: blue ID that lets them go to Jerusalem. Some have 523 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 3: the green ID. And what happened was, if you had 524 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: a blue ID and you put a kindergartener in the 525 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 3: back seat of your car, you would drive off to 526 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 3: the superior nearby hospitals in Jerusalem. And if you had 527 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 3: a green id, you would take a kindergartener in the 528 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: opposite direction toward Ramala or some went even to Nablus 529 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: and Abed and other parents when they heard about the crash, 530 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 3: they raced to the scene. The Israeli army had blocked 531 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 3: off the road wasn't letting cars pass. Abd got out 532 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 3: of the car that he was riding in and started 533 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 3: running toward the accident's site. He flagged down an army jeep, 534 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 3: told them in Hebrew that his kid was on the bus. 535 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: They refused to give him a lift. Just a couple 536 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: of minutes up the road, and he runs to the 537 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 3: scene and he sees a crowd there, and he looks 538 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 3: and he sees this burned out bus and no children anywhere, 539 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: and he's asking where are the kids, and that he's 540 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 3: told that they're in this Jerusalem hospital, in another Jerusalem 541 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: hospital at the military base that's just a minute up 542 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 3: the road, at a Ramala hospital. And he can't go 543 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 3: to most of these places is he can't enter the 544 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 3: military base. He himself has a green ID. He can't 545 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: go to Jerusalem to look for his kid, and so 546 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: he winds up going to Ramala and I tell the 547 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 3: story of this more than twenty four hour period where 548 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: Abd is navigating this horrible bureaucracy on the worst day 549 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 3: of his life to try and find his child child, 550 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 3: his five year old son, Milad. And I also tell 551 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: the story in the crash of other people whose lives 552 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: intersect on the day of the crash. A settler paramedic, 553 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 3: a mother and doctor who works for unra, Palestinian doctor 554 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: who helps pull kids off the bus. And you know, 555 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: all of these people who are living in close proximity 556 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: but living totally separate and unequal lives that collide on 557 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: the day of this crash. And one of that may 558 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 3: I'll just finished, which is one of the main tragedies 559 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: of this book, is that the people on the other 560 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 3: side of this wall live in a state of utter neglect. 561 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 3: And even in this walled ghetto where the parents and 562 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: teachers live, you know, there are virtually no municipal services. 563 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 3: People are forced to burn trash in the middle of 564 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: the street. This is all happening just underneath the manicured 565 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: grounds of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. You can be 566 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 3: at this the most prestigious university in Israel, and look 567 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 3: down on a checkpoint and parents and teachers waiting in 568 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 3: line to just go to their schools and work. And 569 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 3: there is no infrastructure in this place, and no playground, 570 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: no lanes in the road, not even a wide enough 571 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: road for me to go in one direction and the 572 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: bus to go in the other. On the main artery 573 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: of this road, not a single atm and it's so 574 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: bad that the emergency services even will be prevented from 575 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: entering without an army or police escort. And so the 576 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 3: crash really embodied the utter neglect of this area and 577 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: the very fact that all these bystanders were pulling these 578 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 3: kids off and taking them themselves to the hospital, so 579 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 3: that by the time the first Israeli firetruck arrived more 580 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 3: than a half hour later, all the kids had been evacuated. 581 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: So I think part of what makes this particular story, 582 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: which I want to make clear to everyone these are 583 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: real events that happened to real people, is that it 584 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: isn't during wartime, It isn't during these sparks of attention 585 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: and awareness, and it takes the sort of tragedy which 586 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: is the worst nightmare of any human, certainly any parent, 587 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: and stitches it together with something that is very foreign 588 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: to most people, which is the day to day indignities 589 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: and reality of living under occupation. So to me, this 590 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: is exactly the sort of story that people should be 591 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: engaging with right now to understand the status quo reality 592 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: outside of the current war that's being waged on Gaza. 593 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: And yet talked us about the reception of the book, 594 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: and I'll ast a very loaded question, how is the 595 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: book promotion going at this point? 596 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there has been, as you know it just 597 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 3: a major setback for all of the progress that had 598 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 3: been made in the United States in terms of just 599 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 3: being able to say the word occupation, just being able 600 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 3: to have any kind of sympathetic understanding of Palestinian life 601 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 3: under occupation. And since the war began it has been 602 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 3: a hyper polarized and intolerant environment. And there had been 603 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 3: groups that would have tried to cancel my events or 604 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: to try and prevent me from speaking or from people 605 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: hearing about the book prior to October seventh, and I 606 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 3: think they wouldn't have had gotten much traction except on 607 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 3: the far right. Now after October seventh, they're succeeding. And 608 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 3: so I have had multiple events canceled, I had the 609 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,280 Speaker 3: UK police shut down the biggest event of my book 610 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 3: tour citing public safety, and an event at Conway Hall 611 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 3: in London. I have had synagogues cancel, a very progressive 612 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 3: synagogue that they were co sponsored by progressive Jewish organizations 613 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 3: that were involved in promoting the book and thought this 614 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: was an important book for their constituency to read prior 615 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: to October seventh, and now they just say we cannot, 616 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 3: we cannot do it. And I was going to speak 617 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 3: at a Palestinian conference this weekend and the US Campaign 618 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 3: for Palestinian Rights there was pressure put on the Hilton 619 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 3: Hotel in Houston that was hosting them and they had 620 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 3: to cancel the entire conference. I mean, left and right 621 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 3: events are being canceled. Even reviews of the book are 622 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 3: being held that are filed because it's their positive reviews. 623 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 3: I'm told of a book that is sympathetically portraying the 624 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 3: lives of Palestinians under occupation. Now I should say also 625 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 3: that what's really telling about this is that the book 626 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 3: also portrays the lives of Jews, including settlers, sympathetically as well. 627 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 3: I mean, I am trying to paint real human beings 628 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 3: and show what their perspectives are and really put you 629 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 3: in the shoes of Jews and Palestinians living in this place. 630 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 3: So when I was interviewed about the book prior to 631 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 3: October seventh, there was an outlet that I really respect, 632 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 3: Dawn Democracy for the Air of World Now that interviewed 633 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: me in The interviewer asked me a series of questions 634 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 3: about whether I had portrayed the Jewish settlers and therefore 635 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 3: the settler movement too sympathetically. And for me, I was 636 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 3: very happy to be asked that question. That was a 637 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 3: victory because I wanted this book to be real and 638 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 3: to really put you in the shoes of everybody there 639 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 3: and understand how they see the world. So the fact 640 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 3: that a book that got asked that kind of question 641 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 3: before October seventh is being the targeted for cancelation. And 642 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 3: you know, I'm not the only one. So many Palestinian 643 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 3: voices and even you know you've heard the story about 644 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 3: MSNBC not allowing the three anchors who are most sympathetic 645 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 3: to Palestinians to have their shows air in the normal way. 646 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 3: They used a pretext. But it is just a time 647 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 3: of total intolerance and every Palestinian and in the US 648 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 3: that I know says it feels like the days after 649 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 3: nine to eleven or the lead up to the Iraq War. 650 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that certainly seems like the atmosphere 651 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: to me as well. Just you know, there's been lots 652 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: of discussion about cancel culture in American colleges and universities 653 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: and in media, et cetera. But I'm not sure that 654 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: I've seen anything that has been quite as aggressive or 655 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: quite as complete as the shutdown of any sort of 656 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: voices that are sympathetic to Palestinians just as human beings. 657 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, it's not like your book 658 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: is not like Gohamas Yay civilian death. I mean, they're 659 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: really In my opinion, I'm in the midst of reading it, 660 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: and I read the original essay that it was based on. 661 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: There is nothing that should even be controversial because it 662 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: really is, you know, a journal a narrative, but journalistic 663 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: retelling of real events that happened with real human beings. 664 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: One thing that I was curious about from your perspective. 665 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: You know, you're an American, you're a Jew, you live 666 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: in Jerusalem. How easy is it living there to be 667 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: oblivious to the lives of the Palestinians who are living 668 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: just over the border in this walled ghetto. 669 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 3: So easy, I mean, the whole, the whole success of 670 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 3: this decade's long system of injustice depends on it being 671 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 3: easy for the vast majority of Israeli Jews to ignore 672 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 3: it and to not feel it. And I mean, I 673 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 3: live in Jerusalem. I'm working on reporting on the Palestinians, 674 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 3: and I'm passing by this walled ghetto and not thinking 675 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 3: about the people on the other side. Imagine all the 676 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: other Israelis who don't think about Palestinians at all. I'm 677 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 3: not Israeli, but imagine all the Israelis who are passing by. 678 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 3: And that's Jerusalem, where you're confronted with a large Palestinian 679 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 3: population that's living in the same city. If you want 680 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 3: to talk about tel Aviv and the greater tel Aviv area, 681 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 3: you know that is an area with very very few 682 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 3: Palestinians in it. And if you are a liberal living 683 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 3: in tel Aviv, you can live your entire life not 684 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 3: even thinking about the existence of an occupation. And it's 685 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 3: just a few miles away. So the whole system depends 686 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 3: on your average Israeli being able to tune this out completely, 687 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 3: including you know, really well meaning people who might be 688 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 3: against the occupation. But if you make it so comfortable 689 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 3: for everybody to be a part of the system, then 690 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 3: the system can persist indefinitely. 691 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: And how do you think that the horrific massacre perpetrated 692 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: by Hamas on October seventh, how do you think that 693 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: that has shaken Israelis and their view of the status quo. 694 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 3: It is impossible to overstate the degree to which it did, 695 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 3: precisely that it has shaken an entire country. And you know, 696 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 3: on a per capita basis, this is a much bigger 697 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 3: event than nine to eleven for Israeli's US invaded. You know, 698 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 3: two countries reshaped. The Middle East changed its own domestic 699 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 3: laws in the wake of nine to eleven, and that 700 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 3: was with you know, attackers that came from you know, 701 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 3: more than an ocean away. And here you have twenty 702 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 3: percent of the population of Israel proper with citizenship who 703 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 3: are Palestinian and they are living right there in this country. 704 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 3: And there are many people who will try to blame them, 705 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 3: and and you know, the collective punishment of gosens for 706 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 3: what Hamas did is something that everybody supporting now, but 707 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 3: there will be also consequences for Palestinians who don't even 708 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 3: live in Gaza, Palestinian citizens of Israel, Palestinians in the 709 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 3: West Bank. For the first time in my professional life, 710 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 3: I can actually see a future that descends into Balkan 711 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 3: style civil on civil conflict, and of course one party 712 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 3: in that conflict will have all of the guns and 713 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 3: all of the power. And so to answer your question, 714 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 3: it you know, it is so mainstream to now talk about, 715 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 3: you know, wiping out Gaza. You have the center left 716 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 3: president of the country, who is the former head of 717 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 3: the center left Labor Party of Israel, in a speech 718 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 3: prepared remarks, not off the cuff, there are no innocens 719 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 3: in Gaza. I mean, it's it is unbelievab If that 720 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 3: is what the left half of the spectrum in Israel 721 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 3: is saying. You just cannot overstate the degree to which 722 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 3: Israelis are in a deep, deep state of shock. Again 723 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 3: because the system had protected them for so long, they 724 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 3: never expected this to happen. This is out of their 725 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 3: worst nightmares and the consequences for Israeli psychology, Israeli society 726 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 3: for the future of Israel Palestine are very far reaching 727 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 3: and we're just at the very beginning of it. 728 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: That was part of what I wanted to get from 729 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: you to Nathan, because I heard you talking on a 730 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: podcast a while back with Peter Beinart and you were 731 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, we get caught up in these 732 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: debates on the left, like should be a two state solution, 733 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: should be a one state solution? What does this look like? 734 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,959 Speaker 1: Is it Algeria, is it South Africa? And you made 735 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: this point of what if it's America? What if the 736 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: colonizers win? And to me, you've had all this language 737 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: from netnahu and his government of like, all right, we're 738 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: just you know, we're going into Gaza and we don't 739 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 1: even know what comes next. And I sort of think 740 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: that's bullshit because it's not like they've been unclear about 741 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,280 Speaker 1: what their ideal goal for all of the occupied Palestinian territories, 742 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: including Gaza, would be. And that's complete annexation. I mean, 743 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: a think tank with some ties to NETNYAHUO just put 744 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: on a plan that laid on exactly how they would, 745 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, achieve this quote unquote final settlement solution, and 746 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: so to me, it seems more likely that they know 747 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: exactly what they want to do, they just don't want 748 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: to say it publicly for fear of losing the support 749 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: of the US or an attempt to try to save 750 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: face for the US and for President Biden. I wonder 751 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 1: if you're reading it the same way. 752 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 3: So the way that I'm reading it is Israel has 753 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 3: no idea what to do. I actually think, of course, 754 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 3: you know, the ideal solution, the government's ideal solution would 755 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,439 Speaker 3: have been to expel the Palestinians from Gaza and push 756 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 3: them into Egyptian Sinai. And it is very clear from 757 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 3: the statements by Secretary of State Blincoln after his meeting 758 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 3: with the Egyptian President Ceci, that the US was actually 759 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 3: shopping around this idea. And Blincoln made this statement after 760 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 3: meeting with Ceci, saying explicitly, we have heard from our 761 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 3: Arab partners that the idea of moving the Palestinians of 762 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 3: Gaza into another country or into Sinai is a non starter, 763 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 3: and therefore we're not pursuing it. I mean, can you 764 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 3: believe that the American Secretary of State is not taking 765 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 3: a principled stand against the forcible transfer of two point 766 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 3: three million innocent civilians to another country, and the US 767 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 3: was actually attempting to facilitate that, and who knows what 768 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 3: they were offering the Egyptians in order to absorb two 769 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:20,280 Speaker 3: point three million Palestinians. It is unthinkable that the US 770 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:27,320 Speaker 3: could could openly support such a thing, and so absolutely 771 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 3: that was Israel's hope. I don't think, I don't think 772 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 3: that they can achieve it. I think they can. It's 773 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 3: possible that the way that this war will evolve is 774 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 3: that as Israeli ground troops go in and if they 775 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,440 Speaker 3: bomb a certain way and then they they bomb open 776 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 3: essentially the border with Sinai, that you could have many 777 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 3: Palestinians fleeing into Sinai. And the Egyptians will not like it. 778 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,280 Speaker 3: They will test the peace treaty between in Egypt and Israel, 779 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 3: but Egypt may not break it. They may have to 780 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 3: swallow it at first and then push for those refugees 781 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 3: to go back. But we know how that worked in 782 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,240 Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight. They never were permitted to go back. 783 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 3: So that's clearly what Israel's you know, preference would be 784 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 3: that the Palestinians of Gaza go to Egypt, I think 785 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 3: it's very hard for them to achieve it. And their 786 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 3: stated goal, if we forget about even what they're going 787 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 3: to do with the Palestinian civilians of Gaza, their stated 788 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 3: goal with respect to Hamas is also almost impossible to achieve. Yeah, 789 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 3: And so I think they really are at a loss 790 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 3: for what to do. Because if they go in and 791 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 3: they try and you know, blow up tunnels in Gaza, 792 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 3: and they're going to go and you know, inch their 793 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,359 Speaker 3: way down and try and quote unquote eliminate Hamas, which 794 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 3: is what they claim they want to do. This is 795 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,320 Speaker 3: a you know, movement that's deeply rooted in Palestinian society. 796 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 3: There is no way to actually eliminate Hamas. There is 797 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 3: a way to kill many many Palestinians and many militants 798 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 3: inside Hamas. And how they're going to end this without 799 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,799 Speaker 3: killing all of their hostages they're you know, over two 800 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 3: hundred people being held hostage in Gaza is again another 801 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 3: impossible task. What I'm told is that there that the 802 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 3: scale of the killing on October seventh is so great 803 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 3: that there is a totally new Israeli attitude towards hostages. 804 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 3: Gone is the day trading one thousand plus for one soldier. 805 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,160 Speaker 3: One thousand plus Palestinian prisoners for one soldier has happened 806 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 3: with Gilad Shalit in twenty eleven. I believe it was. 807 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 3: And now I think the attitude that some Israeli officials 808 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 3: are expressing in private is this is such a priority 809 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 3: for us, such a more important goal of actually eliminating Hamas, 810 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 3: that that you know, essentially we're prepared to lose another 811 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,879 Speaker 3: two hundred I. 812 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: Mean putting aside the atrocities and collective punishment and bombing 813 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,319 Speaker 1: of you know, civilian facilities and the thousands of Palestinians 814 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 1: and Gaza who have already lost their lives. We've spoken 815 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,080 Speaker 1: with you know, we we've listened to the analysis of 816 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: military experts who are involved in Iraq, involved in Afghanistan said, 817 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,840 Speaker 1: if your goal is actually elimination of Hamas and you 818 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,600 Speaker 1: want to do this counter insurgency type thing, stop bombing 819 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: because you're going to need some cooperation from the local people. 820 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: It's not going to be easy, you're going to suffer casualties, 821 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. But what you're doing now is actually totally 822 00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: counterproductive to your stated goal and objective, which even and 823 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: if you went about it in the way that these 824 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, military experts do, by the way, had to 825 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: work out for us in I Rock and Afghanistan suggest 826 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,399 Speaker 1: is likely, as you're suggesting an impossible task. And even 827 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 1: if you were able to root out Hamas, given the 828 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: blockade in the misery that's inflicted on Gaza on a 829 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: regular basis, what kind of political structure and what kind 830 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 1: of political ideology do you think is going to grow 831 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: out of the ashes of Hamas is going to look 832 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: very similar to what we already have. So with all 833 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,399 Speaker 1: that being said, Nathan, you know you have been you 834 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: are a student of this conflict. You wrote another book 835 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: called The Only Language They Understand, talking about you know, 836 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: flare ups of violence and how that has impacted set back, 837 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 1: move forward, potential negotiations, potential compromises. You know, do you 838 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: have any expectations for what the end of this looks 839 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,759 Speaker 1: like and where we end up after all of the 840 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 1: dust and the misery and the death and the carnage 841 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: is behind us. 842 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 3: It's so hard to predict even a few days into 843 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 3: the future. To think about, you know, months or years 844 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,439 Speaker 3: into the future is almost impossible. But what I think 845 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 3: that you just mentioned is really important. To stress is 846 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 3: that even if we ignore the question of immediately what 847 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 3: Israel is going to do in Gaza and how deeply 848 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 3: they're going to go in and whether they stop bombing, 849 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,960 Speaker 3: and whether they go in with ground troops, et cetera, 850 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 3: there is no exit strategy. There is no plausible answer 851 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 3: to how, if they really eliminate Hamas, how they're going 852 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,840 Speaker 3: to ever leave Gaza. Who's going to be in charge 853 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 3: in Gaza. I lived in Gaza for you know, six 854 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 3: weeks as the very beginning of my work with International 855 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 3: Crisis Group, and the report that I wrote was about 856 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:58,799 Speaker 3: Salafi jihadi opposition to Hamas, and that was you know, 857 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:05,440 Speaker 3: in two thousand and ten, that that kind of opposition 858 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 3: to Hamas, which is way to the right of where 859 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,440 Speaker 3: Hamas is. You know, that's the kind of thing that 860 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 3: could replace Hamas. And Israel cannot put the Palestinian authority 861 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,400 Speaker 3: in place on the back of Israeli tanks in Gaza. 862 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,359 Speaker 3: What what international force is going to agree to go 863 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:32,319 Speaker 3: and facilitate Israel's you know, occupation of Gaza. So I 864 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 3: think Israel really is at a crossroads and it has 865 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 3: no answer that its public is demanding something that it 866 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 3: can't actually do, which is an extraordinarily dangerous situation. 867 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,800 Speaker 1: And what are the forces that you think would hold 868 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: Israel and Netanyahu and the most extreme government in Israeli 869 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 1: history back from complete annexation. 870 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 3: I think that, you know, de facto they are. They've 871 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:12,439 Speaker 3: already annexed, you know, the West Bank. The possibility of 872 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 3: re establishing settlements in Gaza was something unthinkable. It was 873 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 3: something people did say on the right, including people within 874 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 3: the current Israeli government, but it sounded like lunacy three 875 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 3: weeks ago, and today you can actually imagine it. I 876 00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 3: don't think Israel wants to annext Gaza unless they succeed 877 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:45,120 Speaker 3: in getting rid of a huge number of Palestinians within Gaza. 878 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,799 Speaker 3: So if hundreds of thousands or a million, or some 879 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 3: huge chunk of the Palestinians of the two point three 880 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,160 Speaker 3: million Palestinians who live in Gaza are expelled, then I 881 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:03,480 Speaker 3: think you could imagine in Israel the annexation. But if 882 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,160 Speaker 3: there are two point three million Palestinians in Gaza, Israel 883 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,000 Speaker 3: has no interest in actually annexing that territory, and their 884 00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,560 Speaker 3: model is something different, which is walling it off as actually, 885 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,640 Speaker 3: you know, the characters in my book. It's the same strategy. 886 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 3: You have a densely populated Palestinian area that you have 887 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 3: no hope of settling with Jewish settlements. It's too dense, 888 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,840 Speaker 3: there isn't enough space, there would be too much resistance, 889 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,520 Speaker 3: it'd be too costly, and so what do you do. 890 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 3: You wall it off. You segregate that population. So that's 891 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 3: the strategy of Gaza, and that's increasingly the model that 892 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,000 Speaker 3: you see in the West Bank of these bantustans that 893 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:46,360 Speaker 3: are created there. So again, if they clear Gaza of many, 894 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,840 Speaker 3: many Palestinians, annexation becomes a possibility. But without that, I 895 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,520 Speaker 3: think at most they would just add an nex you know, 896 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 3: a portion of it, or declare that they've made a 897 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 3: buffer zone that they're now occupying, and maybe they would say, 898 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,520 Speaker 3: you know, we'll leave when we get the hostages back, 899 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,040 Speaker 3: or something along those lines. 900 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 1: Well, Nathan, thank you so much for spending some time 901 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,239 Speaker 1: with us. You know, the book is fantastic. I really 902 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 1: encourage people to go out and get it because it 903 00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,040 Speaker 1: does help you understand on a visceral level what it 904 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: is like to live under occupation. The way it shapes 905 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: every aspect of your life, your relationships, your work, your 906 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 1: day to day, just how you're driving down the road 907 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: even outside of this horrific tragedy. The book is called 908 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: Day in the Life of ABBA's Lama, Anatomy of a 909 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,520 Speaker 1: Jerusalem Tragedy. Tell people where they can find it, Nathan, 910 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:37,359 Speaker 1: and where they can find you. 911 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 3: My website is Nathanthrall dot com and the book can 912 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,800 Speaker 3: be found anywhere books are sold. There's an audiobook version 913 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:47,479 Speaker 3: of it as well. 914 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, well, thank you so much for your 915 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:51,799 Speaker 1: analysis and your insights to day. 916 00:56:51,840 --> 00:57:02,760 Speaker 3: We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me indeed 917 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 3: to s