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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Let's be real for a second. The world feels

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Speaker 1: pretty overwhelming right now. Lots of us are feeling exhausted

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Speaker 1: and despondent. We spend our days grinding at work and

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Speaker 1: then trying to zone out when we get out of work,

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Speaker 1: which often means scrolling endlessly just to unwind. And if

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Speaker 1: that sounds familiar, you might be wondering quietly to yourself,

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Speaker 1: is this all there is? How do I feel better

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Speaker 1: when the world feels so blah? What if there was

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Speaker 1: a way to hit the reset button on how you

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Speaker 1: experience life, To see the world with fresh eyes like

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Speaker 1: you did as a child, when everything felt alive, full

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Speaker 1: of possibility and somehow a little magical.

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Speaker 2: The mere fact that anything exists at all is astonishing.

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Speaker 2: So just take a longer, deeper look into almost anything

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Speaker 2: and some wondrousness might be available to you.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: In today's episode, the last one in our series on

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Speaker 1: how to Get Unstuck in twenty twenty six, we'll learned

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Speaker 1: that this mindset can be within reach. In fact, today's

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Speaker 1: two guests will share their tips for how to design it.

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Speaker 2: Greetings, this is Dave Evans, the co founder of the

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Speaker 2: Stanford Life Design Lab, so glad to be here today

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Speaker 2: with doctor Laurie Santos and my dear partner, Bill Burnette.

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Speaker 2: We've been teaching life design for twenty odd years and

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Speaker 2: now Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Bill Burnette. I'm an adjunct professor at Stanford University

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Speaker 3: teaching the Designing Your Life series of classes, and now

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Speaker 3: the co author with my good friend Dave of a

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Speaker 3: new book called How to Live a Meaningful Life Using

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Speaker 3: design thinking to unlock purpose, joy, and flow.

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Speaker 1: Every day You're going to live to hate that long

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Speaker 1: a subtitle every time you have to say I learned

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Speaker 1: about Dave and Bill's work because our professional stories are

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Speaker 1: surprisingly similar. Like me, they created a class aimed at

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Speaker 1: improving college students well being, one that ended up going viral,

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Speaker 1: and like me, they've decided to share the insights from

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Speaker 1: their class widely with people of all ages, far beyond

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Speaker 1: the university setting.

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Speaker 2: We teach you the improv skills to live life more fully.

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Speaker 2: Life is an improv. It really is this thing you

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Speaker 2: make up as you go along. But you can get

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Speaker 2: a lot better at them making up as you go along.

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Speaker 2: So we teach a class that starts out with debunking

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Speaker 2: a bunch of dysfunctional beliefs, really wonderful things that people

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Speaker 2: often think are true and guide their lives, but happen

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Speaker 2: not to be either helpful or even true at all,

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Speaker 2: of which there are many. Once we get through the

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Speaker 2: dysfunctional beliefs, we start giving them tools and techniques for

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Speaker 2: how to figure out what they want, how to meet

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Speaker 2: people can animate that thing in them, how to actually

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Speaker 2: go and engage with the world and get going.

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Speaker 1: And so core idea of this class is this idea

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Speaker 1: of design thinking, which I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: don't really know what that means.

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Speaker 3: Bill.

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Speaker 1: What's design thinking?

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Speaker 3: Human centered design? Now we call it design thinking. It's

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Speaker 3: a way of solving problems. It's deeply human and engaged

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Speaker 3: with the problems humans have. And so it was obvious

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Speaker 3: to me when we started thinking about how our students

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Speaker 3: might approach building a meaningful life that it was a

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Speaker 3: design problem because designers make things new to the world

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Speaker 3: all the time. I was at Apple for seven years

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Speaker 3: before Stanford and I worked on the very first laptops,

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Speaker 3: and when you're building something that's never existed before, you

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Speaker 3: can't just engineer it because you don't have any data

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Speaker 3: about the thing that's never existed like your future, and

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Speaker 3: so it's using human centered design to figure out what's

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Speaker 3: the next cool version of you.

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Speaker 1: I love this idea of the next cool version of

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Speaker 1: you because often when we think about designing, we think

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Speaker 1: about designing something like emphasis on the thing. But you've

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Speaker 1: really argued that we can design ourselves and our own

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Speaker 1: lives and interesting ways. What are some of the features

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Speaker 1: of design thinking we should bring in when we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about designing our own lives.

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Speaker 2: Well, it starts to you know, again user centered to

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Speaker 2: human centered. So it starts with like, what does it

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Speaker 2: mean to be a person? Well, you know, our sort

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Speaker 2: of definition is a human person is a becoming, a

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Speaker 2: never ending story, and so what you're growing into is

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Speaker 2: the for the revealed version of yourself. All of us

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Speaker 2: contain more aliveness than when lifetime permits us to live out.

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Speaker 2: I either there's more than one of you in there,

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Speaker 2: so there is no getting it right because you are

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Speaker 2: way bigger than it when it is your lifetime. So

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Speaker 2: all of us are only going to express a small

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Speaker 2: portion of the fullness of our humanity. We have multiple

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Speaker 2: choices in front of us, both between which of me

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Speaker 2: do I want to give a chance to get out

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Speaker 2: on the stage and the next season of my life.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, what does the world think might

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Speaker 2: be an interesting thing for me to be collaborating with

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Speaker 2: other people on. So I'm looking for the nexus of

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Speaker 2: those things, which is evolving all the time. And now

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Speaker 2: all of let's go have some ideas and get started

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Speaker 2: to start prototyping what the future of that person might be.

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Speaker 2: So it really does begin with the very first dysfunctional

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Speaker 2: belief is I have to find my passion, purpose answer thing. No,

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Speaker 2: I have to find the next one that will be

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Speaker 2: interesting enough to live into what will become after that.

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Speaker 1: So if you're feeling a little off track, stick around

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Speaker 1: because Bill and Dave have some excellent advice on becoming

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Speaker 1: of version of yourself that feels more engaged and more live.

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Speaker 1: We'll learn all their tips after some quick ads. Dave

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Speaker 1: Evans and Bill Burnett are best known for their popular

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Speaker 1: Stanford course Designing Your Life and the best selling book

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Speaker 1: that grew out of that class, but they've recently put

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Speaker 1: out a new book called How to Live a Meaningful Life.

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Speaker 1: One of their biggest insights is what's known as the

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Speaker 1: Designer's Way, a mindset for intentionally engineering the life you want.

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Speaker 3: Designs inherently value free, except we always try to make

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Speaker 3: the next design better. Right, we think we can improve

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Speaker 3: the world. So you start with wonder. I'm naturally curious.

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Speaker 3: If I'm a designer, I'm curious about the world and

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Speaker 3: how to make things better. It's not just who has

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Speaker 3: that work, but oh wow, how amazing is that? I

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Speaker 3: wonder how that works? Right? Then we say availability, be

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Speaker 3: available to the experiences of the world. That's where the

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Speaker 3: interesting stuff happens. Radical acceptance like availability plus acceptance is

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Speaker 3: like we always say, design starts in reality. You've got

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Speaker 3: to start right here where you are, not in some

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Speaker 3: place where you think you should be because you saw

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Speaker 3: it on social media or something else. Right, and then

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Speaker 3: being fully engaged but commonly detached from the outcomes. Because

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Speaker 3: we know a lot about decision science. You can make

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Speaker 3: a good decision, but that doesn't assly mean you're going

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Speaker 3: to get the outcome you want. So be fully engaged

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Speaker 3: in your life, be intentional, but give yourself some grace

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Speaker 3: about the outcomes, and then God in the world and

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Speaker 3: tell your story or create your world. So as mindset's

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Speaker 3: put together, we call it a designer's way, but I

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Speaker 3: when you put it together, it's like, approach the world

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Speaker 3: with a sense of wonder, be available to the things

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Speaker 3: that are happening, root yourself in the reality of the world,

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Speaker 3: and then tell that story to people. Because when you

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Speaker 3: tell the story, you're creating the experience of the world

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Speaker 3: that you want to have.

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Speaker 1: I loved this idea of the Designer's Way in part

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Speaker 1: because it's not just great for human centered design or

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Speaker 1: even designing your life. I think it's so useful for

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Speaker 1: navigating all the stuff that can come up in a life.

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Speaker 1: It fits with a lot of the happiness evidence we

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Speaker 1: talk about on the show, Dave in particular. I know

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Speaker 1: what this idea of radical acceptance you've talked about, how

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Speaker 1: you use that to navigate a really painful time of

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Speaker 1: grief in your own life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're probably referring to the death of my beloved wife,

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Speaker 2: Claudia So on March eighth of twenty twenty, she got

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Speaker 2: a terminal diagnosis. She beat breast cancer once before twenty

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Speaker 2: years prior, decided to give it a second try, picked

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Speaker 2: a much nastier cancer, and she was four ways metastasized

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Speaker 2: in terminal. On day one, she thought she had bronchitas.

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Speaker 2: She came home with the destines. She had sixty to

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Speaker 2: twenty four months to live. We got nine, and she

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Speaker 2: died at seventy. She was sixty nine at the time,

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Speaker 2: so she died fifteen years ahead of the contract. We

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Speaker 2: had a deal and she broke the deal. You know,

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Speaker 2: I was pretty pissed. But the first thing was to

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Speaker 2: frame what is this? We said, Okay, well, I'm gonna die.

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Speaker 2: I was going to die before she is. Now I

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Speaker 2: know when, and so oh it's sad, not tragic, because

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Speaker 2: at seventy I've kind of done everything I need to do.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing really missing. She goes, but I'd love second

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Speaker 2: helping is of a couple of things before I go.

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Speaker 2: So the mantra for the next year was second helpings,

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Speaker 2: which we didn't get that many up because between COVID

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Speaker 2: and fires and everything else is pretty tough. But nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: the holy idea was to decide how to think about it.

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Speaker 2: Mindset was everything. So I started interviewing widows, people who

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Speaker 2: I thought had widowed. Well, so I'm going to borrow

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Speaker 2: other people's wisdom. One of the best pieces of wisdom

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Speaker 2: I got was from a guy whose wife went through

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Speaker 2: a nine year death process. He said, look, Dave, don't

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Speaker 2: waste one second thinking about how are you going to

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Speaker 2: handle this after she's gone, because no matter what you do,

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Speaker 2: since you had an intimate marriage, it's going to rip

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Speaker 2: your legs off, it's going to blow your brains up.

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Speaker 2: There's not a chance in hell you're going to be

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Speaker 2: prepared for this. So the don't always time trying to prepare,

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Speaker 2: and every bit of energy you take away thinking about

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Speaker 2: that future, you're stealing from the present. So lean into

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Speaker 2: doing nothing but enjoy the Heck, at the time, you

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Speaker 2: guys have and as soon as she's gone you can

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Speaker 2: figure that out. Then that's exactly what it did, was

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Speaker 2: exactly the right thing to do. So I learned a

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Speaker 2: ton about grief, but there was all in that framework

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Speaker 2: of it just happens to be really painful. I wonder

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Speaker 2: what the lessons might be.

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Speaker 1: And also just not going away from reality. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: this idea before that you can't design things well if

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Speaker 1: you're not taking into account the reality of the situation,

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Speaker 1: as crappy and as terrible as it might be.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, design is an empirical process. So if

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Speaker 2: it's empirical, it has to work in this place called real.

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Speaker 2: It's the only place design works. We can't work with

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Speaker 2: you and the landa should. We only do real stuff,

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Speaker 2: and in reality you can make it better.

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Speaker 3: I mean, just also mention Claudia was an exceptional woman

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Speaker 3: and her ability to accept radical acceptance isn't about happiness

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Speaker 3: per se. It's about no reality, which means radically accepting grief.

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Speaker 3: But Claudia was brilliant at this. You could imagine a

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Speaker 3: different situation with someone clinging to false hope or something else,

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Speaker 3: but having watched Dave do this, it was both incredibly

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Speaker 3: tragic and incredibly beautiful in a way that they together

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Speaker 3: managed this acceptance a situation that neither one of them,

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Speaker 3: neither one of them wanted. So that was battle testing

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Speaker 3: one of our mindsets for sure.

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Speaker 2: And it's situations where right now we're walking through this

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Speaker 2: with a couple of our significantly older friends, where the

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Speaker 2: guy is going down swinging. I mean, he's not going

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Speaker 2: quietly into this night. He is rejecting everything right and

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Speaker 2: he's ruining his life in the life of everybody around him.

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Speaker 3: And it's a choice.

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Speaker 2: So choosing well on this acceptance thing has an amazing upset.

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Speaker 2: It really is one of the biggest mindsets of all time.

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Speaker 1: So you all are living in your daily life teaching students,

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Speaker 1: and you give them these incredible tools for designing their

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Speaker 1: lives in wonderful ways. But you, like me, sometimes have

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Speaker 1: the interesting moment of a student who comes back a

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Speaker 1: little bit later on and you know, maybe later in

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Speaker 1: their twenties, and they often feel like my ill students

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Speaker 1: sometimes feel, which is it like they're kind of feeling

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Speaker 1: a little lost, Like they're kind of feeling like they

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Speaker 1: tried to follow what you were telling them, but life

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Speaker 1: isn't turning out the way they thought. Bill, tell me

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Speaker 1: about some of these conversations you had with your students.

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Speaker 3: I love meeting students two years out, five years out,

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Speaker 3: seven years out. I just talked to somebody who was

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Speaker 3: like fifteen years out and came up and said, oh,

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Speaker 3: Professor Burnett, I haven't seen you. So they come back,

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Speaker 3: and often, you know, I get two reactions. One is, hey,

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Speaker 3: I remember the class and it's still very helpful. And

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Speaker 3: in fact, even my friends ask me sometimes and I

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Speaker 3: tell them read the book or whatever. And then sometimes

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Speaker 3: they say, you know, I used all these tools, but

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Speaker 3: I'm still my life still doesn't have the meaning or

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Speaker 3: the purpose or the impact that I wanted to have,

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Speaker 3: particularly impact, because the gen zs all want to have

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Speaker 3: a lot of impact. And so that was one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons we wrote this last book, How to Live

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Speaker 3: a Meaningful Life, is that even after designing a pretty

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Speaker 3: good life for career, they're still looking for well, wait

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Speaker 3: a minute, where's the payoff, where's the impact, Where's the meaning?

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Speaker 3: And we wanted to go back and look at that

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Speaker 3: kind of step back from the life design I yet

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Speaker 3: really look at more at meaning and purpose because our conclusions,

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Speaker 3: they were looking in the wrong place, and we wanted

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Speaker 3: to give them better navigation. I guess in that question.

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Speaker 1: And I think students sometimes get it wrong, especially when

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Speaker 1: they're in that position of feeling like something's missing. When

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Speaker 1: I talk to my own students who are in this position,

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Speaker 1: I often get the sense that they think what they

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Speaker 1: need to do to fix things is to like detonate

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Speaker 1: their life, like I'm going to buy a van and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to move across country or I'm going to

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Speaker 1: move to a farm. But do you both have argued

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Speaker 1: that there are other ways around this that doesn't involve

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Speaker 1: detonating your life. Why is it the wrong path to meaning.

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Speaker 2: Well, not never there, I mean every now and then

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Speaker 2: I'll say, yeah, I think you probably should quite out

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Speaker 2: of that horrible, toxic job working for that voracious boss.

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Speaker 2: But that's pretty rare. What it boils down to is,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to talk about the college of

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Speaker 2: those college ships. I mean, while you're in college, you

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Speaker 2: know it is about you. It's all about you. And

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Speaker 2: a good day is when you heard something you never

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Speaker 2: heard before, you saw something in a saw, before you

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Speaker 2: did something. So life is cool when I'm on a

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Speaker 2: really steep learning curve. Well, if you're out in the world,

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Speaker 2: whether you're in medicine or the marketplace or the military,

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Speaker 2: whatever you're doing, that world is about mastery and it's

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Speaker 2: not about doing something for the first time six hours

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Speaker 2: a day. That's called incompetency. We don't let you do

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Speaker 2: that to patients or customers or investors. They actually want

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Speaker 2: people who know what they're doing. So I go from

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Speaker 2: this thing where it's all about novelty to all about mastery.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge shift, and that's a longer, more patient pathway.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes people are looking for the but it's not

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Speaker 2: amazingly new every single day. I must be in the

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Speaker 2: wrong place. No, you're just thinking about the paradigm of

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Speaker 2: life wrong. And we keep talking about getting more out

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Speaker 2: of life, not cram more into it. Oh, I need

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Speaker 2: another hobby, I need a bigger thing, I need more. No,

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Speaker 2: you don't need more. You need to get more out

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Speaker 2: of what's already there. And so we start teaching people

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Speaker 2: more how to live into that life, to get more

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Speaker 2: full of liveness from it.

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Speaker 1: And this is the idea of really designing for meaning

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Speaker 1: and designing for the right kind of meaning, which means

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Speaker 1: we need to be honest about the kind of meaning

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Speaker 1: that we can design for and the kinds of meaning

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Speaker 1: that we can't really design for. And so talk about

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Speaker 1: the kind of meaning that people usually want to get,

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Speaker 1: the very big meaning, and why that's different from the

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Speaker 1: meaning that you're talking about designing.

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Speaker 2: In your book.

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Speaker 3: It's a design book, not a philosophy book. So we

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Speaker 3: don't try to answer the meaning of life the big question,

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Speaker 3: you know, what's the meaning of life? Is there a God?

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Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. That's not a designable question, But getting

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Speaker 3: more meaning out of life is a designable question. And

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Speaker 3: this idea of getting more out of not packing more into.

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Speaker 2: First of all, am I going to change the world.

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Speaker 2: Probably not, And that's a good thing to aspire to.

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Speaker 2: But if that's the only egg in your meaning basket, boy,

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Speaker 2: are you at risk? And so, first thing you get

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Speaker 2: beyond impact and then becoming fully human, it means I'm

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Speaker 2: not just making a difference, but I'm also living more fully.

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Speaker 2: And so the key thing we do is we try

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Speaker 2: to give people, you know, more food groups, not just

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Speaker 2: the meat of impact, but the vegetables of wonder and

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Speaker 2: the beverages of you know, flow, And so we try

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Speaker 2: to get people a couple more crayons in the box

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Speaker 2: to mix the metaphor.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like we're not going after the meaning

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Speaker 1: of life. We're going after meaning in life. And a

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Speaker 1: thing that we need to radically accept to do that

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Speaker 1: is that we need to understand how tiny sometimes the

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Speaker 1: meaning in life buckets are. And I think this gets

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Speaker 1: us to this idea of the scandal of particularity. Dave,

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Speaker 1: do you want to explain what this is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, a scandal particularity is a philosophical idea, actually started

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Speaker 2: as a theological idea by Walter Brugman. But what it

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Speaker 2: really boils down to is It turns out the ultimate

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Speaker 2: is only accessible in the particular. To put it differently,

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Speaker 2: the sublime is actually found in the ridiculous beauty, truth, love, communion, unity,

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Speaker 2: These lovely things we all aspire to, and when we

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Speaker 2: experience them deeply, we're kind of go ooh, that's really it.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: You see that amazing sunset and everybody kind of goes, ooh,

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Speaker 2: I want more of that. That's what I was made for.

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Speaker 2: And so that alt is beckoning to all of us

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Speaker 2: all the time. But it turns out it only arrives

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Speaker 2: in small, partial chunks. They're all essentially reflections of that fullness,

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Speaker 2: they're not full embodiments of it. Every one of those

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Speaker 2: experiences of something wonderful, frankly, it leaves you wanting more,

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Speaker 2: Like you know, that was a really great kiss, but

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Speaker 2: it stopped too soon. You know, you can never have

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Speaker 2: all of it. So the scandal particular is it's kind

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Speaker 2: of scandalous that these wonderful things only come in these

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Speaker 2: little cupcake sized bits, you know, that little tasting thing

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Speaker 2: they give you at Costco. You know, like, where's the

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Speaker 2: rest of the pizza? And oh, that was a really

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Speaker 2: good bite. And the fact that I long for more

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Speaker 2: is the promise that life will continue to be interesting.

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Speaker 2: So the huge shift is in the scandal particularity. You

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Speaker 2: go from it's still not what I really want too,

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Speaker 2: that was lovely and mores to come. It's a complete

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Speaker 2: transformation of your relationship with finitude.

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Speaker 1: We humans don't like finitude. When something feels good, we

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Speaker 1: want more, more accomplishment, more success, more kisses, more nachos.

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Speaker 1: But chasing more isn't how we get to capital m meaning.

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Speaker 1: To do that, we have to embrace the finite bits,

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Speaker 1: however scandalous that might feel. But the big question is

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Speaker 1: how do we do that? How do we notice and

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Speaker 1: make the most of these tiny, beautiful moments. We'll find

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Speaker 1: out when the Happiness Lab returns after the break. Stanford

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Speaker 1: designers Dave Evans and Bill Burnett argue that instead of

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Speaker 1: trying to find the big elusive meaning in life, we

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Speaker 1: should instead focus on the little stuff, tiny moments of

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Speaker 1: beauty and wonder. In fact, they think we should all

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Speaker 1: be putting our efforts into creating these kinds of moments.

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Speaker 3: Well, you can design moments right, design any experience, and

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Speaker 3: what you're looking for is to connect that moment to

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Speaker 3: something bigger than yourself, right s transcendence that moment can be.

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Speaker 3: I always make my grandmother's purple cabbage. It's a recipe,

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Speaker 3: you know, Germany from the thirties. It's just purple gabbage

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Speaker 3: with some vinegar and sugar. But it's a thing. And

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Speaker 3: when the purple cabbage comes out, the moment is everybody

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Speaker 3: remembers Grandma. So it's these particular moments where we can

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Speaker 3: discover a connection to the ultimate meaning of life. I

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Speaker 3: guess love community a memory of an important person in

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Speaker 3: our lives. You have opportunities all around you to create

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Speaker 3: these moments. I just you know, I live in an

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Speaker 3: industrial neighborhood in the city, and I'm walking to the train.

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Speaker 3: I'm noticing there's this bush that's got a bunch of

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Speaker 3: purple flowers on it. I don't know why it's blooming

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Speaker 3: in December, but there's this bush doing its thing. I

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Speaker 3: stood there for a moment and I watched probably twenty

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Speaker 3: other people just walk right by it. But to stop

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Speaker 3: and take some pictures, just to have a moment to

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Speaker 3: savor the beauty of nature. Part of this moment making

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Speaker 3: thing is change what you're looking for, pay attention be

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Speaker 3: available to what's right in front of you, this bush

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Speaker 3: with purple flowers, the friendly barista who you know heated

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Speaker 3: up my muffin. All the little things actually are packed

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Speaker 3: with meaning. And you can design those moments, and you

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Speaker 3: can also recognize and savor those moments, And in either case,

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Speaker 3: you're changing the way your brain is wired. Right, You're

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Speaker 3: starting to look for things that are imbued with the

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Speaker 3: scandal of particularly the meaning in life, not the meaning

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Speaker 3: of life.

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Speaker 2: What's really going on in you know, we're designed guys.

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Speaker 2: We're going to give you tools to design something, to

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Speaker 2: make something. What are we making? So if I go

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Speaker 2: right to making meaning, nine times out of ten, the

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Speaker 2: people we talk with, well from twenty to ninety they're

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Speaker 2: all having the same problem. They go up this impact thing.

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Speaker 2: So if I want these other forms of meaning, they're

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Speaker 2: found in a different way of seeing the world.

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Speaker 1: To really get into this idea of moment making, we

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Speaker 1: need to make a distinction between two different kinds of worlds. First,

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Speaker 1: the world that we often find ourselves in, the world

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Speaker 1: of outcomes and instrumental value and capitalism and et cetera,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. What you call the transactional world. So, Dave,

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Speaker 1: what's the transactional world?

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Speaker 2: We've posited this idea of the tale of two worlds.

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Speaker 2: There's the transactional world where I go and get stuff done,

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Speaker 2: and there's the flow world, which is the fullness of

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Speaker 2: the cosmos that's happening in this very moment, right in

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Speaker 2: front of me, right under my feet, right around me.

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Speaker 3: All the time.

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Speaker 2: We're playing with which world you're participating in in terms

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Speaker 2: of directing your attention. Transactional world, you know, it's the

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Speaker 2: world of lists. Frankly, it's a world where you're living

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Speaker 2: almost entirely in the past or the future. I am

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Speaker 2: criticizing what it did last time and learning from it

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Speaker 2: so it can do it better. And I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm still a post it note, Gude. I

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Speaker 2: am literally looking at my desk and I've got one, two, three, four,

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Speaker 2: of five, six, seventy, got eighteen things on a post list,

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Speaker 2: and there's circles next to them, and if the circle

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Speaker 2: has an excident, it's done. So right now I have

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Speaker 2: twelve out of eighteen things with exues and six things

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Speaker 2: with circles. And you know what a really good day

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Speaker 2: is A really good day is when there's all exes.

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Speaker 2: What it can't wait is for that to be over

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Speaker 2: All the transaction world wants to be is done and successful,

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Speaker 2: successfully done, and the feedback is money and accolade and

431
00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:34,676
Speaker 2: social media likes, and you get tons of feedback. So

432
00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:38,036
Speaker 2: it's an easy world to be completely stuck in. And

433
00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:41,676
Speaker 2: some people tell you it's the only real world, and

434
00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:42,916
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of heart pricking.

435
00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:46,356
Speaker 1: And so you make a distinction between this transactional world

436
00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:48,236
Speaker 1: and a different world that you call the flow world.

437
00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:50,396
Speaker 1: So Bill, what's the flow world? How's it very different

438
00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:52,036
Speaker 1: from the thing that Dave was just talking about.

439
00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:55,436
Speaker 3: Well, in terms of what Dave just said and transactions,

440
00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:57,236
Speaker 3: it's looking backwards to see what I got done and

441
00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:00,356
Speaker 3: looking forward to see what's next. And I'm never right

442
00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,276
Speaker 3: here in the moment, in the present moment, and the

443
00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:05,636
Speaker 3: flow world is more about the present moment. Again, it's

444
00:22:05,836 --> 00:22:08,476
Speaker 3: available all the time. There's nothing inherently wrong with the

445
00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:12,476
Speaker 3: transactional word, but it's when you make intrinsically float things.

446
00:22:12,556 --> 00:22:16,116
Speaker 3: Let's say I have a mindfulness practice or I have

447
00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:20,076
Speaker 3: a yoga practice, which should just be about being in

448
00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:22,916
Speaker 3: the moment, in that place where you're in a sort

449
00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:25,516
Speaker 3: of a flow state. You can turn that into transaction. Hey,

450
00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,516
Speaker 3: I went to yoga five times this week. Check and

451
00:22:28,556 --> 00:22:31,236
Speaker 3: none of those things are the way the flow world

452
00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:33,996
Speaker 3: actually works. You can be in both worlds at the

453
00:22:33,996 --> 00:22:35,236
Speaker 3: same time. By the way, I can be in a

454
00:22:35,276 --> 00:22:38,156
Speaker 3: totlet flow state looking at the purple flowers and still

455
00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:41,276
Speaker 3: get to the train on time. Right, there's no contradiction here.

456
00:22:41,516 --> 00:22:43,476
Speaker 3: It was the work of you know, doctor Lisa Miller

457
00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,076
Speaker 3: at Columbia. We're talking about the awakened brain and the

458
00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:48,596
Speaker 3: achieving brain, or the left brain and the right brain,

459
00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:50,036
Speaker 3: if you want to use that model, whatever it is.

460
00:22:50,076 --> 00:22:52,676
Speaker 3: They're both on all the time. It's just you're not

461
00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:55,956
Speaker 3: paying any attention. You know. The left brain is the

462
00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:59,476
Speaker 3: one that talks. And if you're like me and Dave,

463
00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:03,076
Speaker 3: there's somebody talking in my head all the time, and

464
00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:06,796
Speaker 3: it's taken up all the space. The ability to access

465
00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:10,556
Speaker 3: your creative of self here into it. It's all there.

466
00:23:10,636 --> 00:23:13,916
Speaker 3: It's just underdeveloped in our society. And as they mentioned,

467
00:23:14,636 --> 00:23:18,156
Speaker 3: people trust the transactional brain, the brain the talks. They

468
00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,276
Speaker 3: think it's the real one, and they think this other

469
00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:26,036
Speaker 3: one is sort of you know, it's it's okay, but

470
00:23:26,116 --> 00:23:29,956
Speaker 3: it's not quote real cute. It's just is real, in fact,

471
00:23:30,076 --> 00:23:32,676
Speaker 3: even more real. If you want to be a whole

472
00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:37,876
Speaker 3: human being, you have to accept the reality of your creativity,

473
00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:44,116
Speaker 3: your intuition, your awakened brain. All these things are neurologically true.

474
00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:47,196
Speaker 3: It's just we live in a society that doesn't value them.

475
00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:49,276
Speaker 2: You know, we're talking about reframes all the time, but

476
00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:51,556
Speaker 2: point of a reframe is to look at something differently,

477
00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 2: change your point of view. And we're trying to free

478
00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:55,836
Speaker 2: people up to get them access to a bunch of

479
00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,196
Speaker 2: stuff that they're missing. Now or are you doing this

480
00:23:58,276 --> 00:24:00,756
Speaker 2: work too? So let me turn the arrow around. Now,

481
00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:03,716
Speaker 2: you've got this struggle with your students. What are you

482
00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:07,076
Speaker 2: finding helpful in number one, convincing them that this is

483
00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:10,876
Speaker 2: available in legitimate actually spending some time and energy on it.

484
00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:12,876
Speaker 1: Well, I think this was one of the reasons I

485
00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:14,756
Speaker 1: was so excited to talk to you and so excited

486
00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:17,276
Speaker 1: about this concept of the transactional world, because I think,

487
00:24:17,716 --> 00:24:21,116
Speaker 1: especially my type A Yale undergraduates, spend a lot of

488
00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:23,916
Speaker 1: time in this transactional world. You had this quip that

489
00:24:23,996 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: the transactional world is very imperialistic, which I was like, yes, yes, yes,

490
00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:31,476
Speaker 1: because I think it sucks you in. You Bill, you

491
00:24:31,516 --> 00:24:34,676
Speaker 1: mentioned this idea of you're doing your meditation, which in

492
00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:37,116
Speaker 1: theory should be like full on flow world, you're just

493
00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:40,156
Speaker 1: being present and nothing else. But I'm taking it off

494
00:24:40,196 --> 00:24:42,076
Speaker 1: my list. I also have my meditation on a post

495
00:24:42,116 --> 00:24:43,516
Speaker 1: it note, and I'm trying to do it so that

496
00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:46,156
Speaker 1: I work better in my you know, investment, make a

497
00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:48,796
Speaker 1: job or something like that. So I'm curious what you

498
00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:51,596
Speaker 1: all think of, like how to fight the imperialism. This

499
00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:54,556
Speaker 1: transactional world is so prone to suck you in. Especially

500
00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:56,996
Speaker 1: I think if you've been successful and benefited from the

501
00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:58,916
Speaker 1: transactional world in the way that a lot of our

502
00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:00,796
Speaker 1: Ivy League students have done.

503
00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:03,876
Speaker 2: Well, one of our tools is savoring. And I know

504
00:25:03,916 --> 00:25:05,716
Speaker 2: you're a saving fan as well. You're sitting at a

505
00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:07,516
Speaker 2: red light and your favorite song comes on and you

506
00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:11,916
Speaker 2: kind of go, oh, that's great, Oh no, no, really love it.

507
00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:14,036
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love that Dylan song. It is

508
00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 2: so drop all the way into it for seventeen seconds

509
00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:21,596
Speaker 2: and then off you go. And if you start learning

510
00:25:21,636 --> 00:25:22,956
Speaker 2: how to do that, you start learning how to do

511
00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:26,116
Speaker 2: a sudden savoring like it's a good cup of coffee. Wait,

512
00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:28,636
Speaker 2: hold that one on your tongue for three seconds, longer

513
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:33,036
Speaker 2: three seconds. Oh my god, I can actually taste because

514
00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:36,996
Speaker 2: I make half calf, I use dark decaf and medium

515
00:25:36,996 --> 00:25:39,276
Speaker 2: grind calf. Can I taste both beans?

516
00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:40,516
Speaker 3: Oh god? It can.

517
00:25:41,676 --> 00:25:42,516
Speaker 2: That moves the needle.

518
00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:45,116
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I love this suggestion is that

519
00:25:45,276 --> 00:25:48,196
Speaker 1: it's just a reminder that we can switch back and forth.

520
00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:49,916
Speaker 1: One of the suggestions you give in the book is

521
00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:53,476
Speaker 1: to literally tell yourself, okay, switch And this was something

522
00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:55,836
Speaker 1: I found myself even using right after reading the book.

523
00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:58,436
Speaker 1: Is you know, I'll be prepping for a podcast and

524
00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:01,156
Speaker 1: you know, kind of in full transaction, urgent mind head,

525
00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 1: and then I just remember, like, oh wait, switch. Ah,

526
00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:06,876
Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to the light in the world, or

527
00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:09,716
Speaker 1: like the seat under me, or you know, someone walking by,

528
00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:12,196
Speaker 1: let me smile at them. It's almost like you give

529
00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:15,556
Speaker 1: yourself the task of noticing what you can notice in

530
00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:17,876
Speaker 1: the flow world. And that works pretty well.

531
00:26:18,956 --> 00:26:21,476
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really does. The idea of flipping the switch.

532
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:24,636
Speaker 3: Like Dave and I were prepping for this, you know,

533
00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:27,476
Speaker 3: the podcast, and we're looking at our notes and that

534
00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:30,236
Speaker 3: was all transactional and then just before we came on.

535
00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,076
Speaker 3: It was the moment when I flipped the switch to like,

536
00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:35,876
Speaker 3: oh wow, I get to talk to this really interesting person,

537
00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:38,876
Speaker 3: Laurie Santos. This is an amazing body of work. This

538
00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:41,356
Speaker 3: is going to be fun. There's the ways you can

539
00:26:41,396 --> 00:26:43,756
Speaker 3: get on stuck that are really quite simple. I don't

540
00:26:43,796 --> 00:26:47,796
Speaker 3: think you have to spend ten years developing a meditation practice.

541
00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:51,756
Speaker 3: Go ahead, that's probably a good thing. But even the

542
00:26:52,076 --> 00:26:55,276
Speaker 3: zen monks would say that enlightenment is instantaneous. And one

543
00:26:55,316 --> 00:26:57,516
Speaker 3: of my favorite quotes is if you can't find enlightenment

544
00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:00,836
Speaker 3: right where you are, where do you expect to find it?

545
00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:03,436
Speaker 3: Is it over there? Is it over there? That's right here?

546
00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:05,996
Speaker 3: And it's in just little moments. So it's easier than

547
00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:07,796
Speaker 3: you think. You don't have to spend a lot of time.

548
00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:12,636
Speaker 3: Savoring is one thing, the idea of just practicing acceptance. Hey,

549
00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:14,996
Speaker 3: I'm just going to try to be in the real

550
00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 3: world today and see what happens and availability can I

551
00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:21,356
Speaker 3: change what I'm looking for. It's all about connection. It's

552
00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:25,756
Speaker 3: all about love and people and things beyond yourself. So

553
00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:28,836
Speaker 3: is there a moment where you can have a little

554
00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:31,076
Speaker 3: more community? Can you talk to that person on the train.

555
00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:35,316
Speaker 3: Can you chat with someone at the coffee shop? Find

556
00:27:35,356 --> 00:27:38,316
Speaker 3: a way to connect? You know, these little tiny design

557
00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:43,676
Speaker 3: moments that help you get unstuck and figure out that

558
00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:47,316
Speaker 3: you know, maybe there is some meaning in the life

559
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:49,076
Speaker 3: you're already living, and you don't have to go find

560
00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:49,996
Speaker 3: it somewhere else.

561
00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:52,636
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I love your books so much

562
00:27:52,676 --> 00:27:55,556
Speaker 1: is you tell us some really good techniques for making

563
00:27:55,596 --> 00:27:58,116
Speaker 1: that switch, for kind of switching to the flow world.

564
00:27:58,436 --> 00:27:59,836
Speaker 1: And one of the big ones you talk about is

565
00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:02,916
Speaker 1: this idea of wonder Dave. You mentioned that you give

566
00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:06,396
Speaker 1: your students the mantra of pursuing late wonderfulness. What do

567
00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:06,996
Speaker 1: you mean by that?

568
00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,716
Speaker 2: You know, minset matters. And if you walk into a

569
00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:13,836
Speaker 2: room you're walking any experience. Oh, it's probably going to

570
00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:15,596
Speaker 2: be boring. I don't think I even know these people.

571
00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:19,516
Speaker 2: Your chances of fulfilling that expectations are extremely high. If

572
00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:21,076
Speaker 2: you're walk in kind of going, man, I bet this

573
00:28:21,116 --> 00:28:22,396
Speaker 2: is going to be great. It can't wait to meet

574
00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:24,956
Speaker 2: these interesting people. Now you maybe doesnappointed. Then maybe all

575
00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:28,516
Speaker 2: absolute dults like, oh oh well, but when you round up,

576
00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:32,036
Speaker 2: your chance of finding it goes way up. Use confirmation

577
00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:36,036
Speaker 2: bias as a friend, give yourself a chance. You know,

578
00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:37,756
Speaker 2: we're learning how to play the game to win here.

579
00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:40,436
Speaker 2: So the pursuit of late and wonderfulness is there's something

580
00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:42,156
Speaker 2: wonderful going on all the time.

581
00:28:42,116 --> 00:28:44,156
Speaker 3: On the late and wonderfulness. This is also a response

582
00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:46,196
Speaker 3: to our students, you know, have a very high bar

583
00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:47,956
Speaker 3: for everything. It's like, I'm not going to go interview

584
00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,996
Speaker 3: at a big company because big companies are bad. Well,

585
00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 3: how do you know that? Well, that's all all my

586
00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:54,556
Speaker 3: friends tell me. All right, here's your assignment. You know

587
00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:56,596
Speaker 3: you're going to go interview at you know, Apple and

588
00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:59,156
Speaker 3: Google and come back. And now one students that I

589
00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:01,796
Speaker 3: will never interview at the CIA, say, okay, go interview

590
00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:05,276
Speaker 3: at the CIA. There's a twenty percent chance that there's

591
00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:08,036
Speaker 3: something in there that's interesting. Go find give it a shot,

592
00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 3: Go find it. And inevitably they come back and they go,

593
00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:14,676
Speaker 3: do you know that the CIA is working like ten

594
00:29:14,756 --> 00:29:17,956
Speaker 3: years ahead? In the AI thing? They talked about stuff

595
00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:20,236
Speaker 3: nobody's talking about in the valley. I totally want to

596
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:23,356
Speaker 3: work there. So our students said a ridiculously high bar

597
00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 3: for their experiences, and if they're not going to be amazing,

598
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 3: they don't want to do it, and so they shut

599
00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:33,316
Speaker 3: themselves out of so many things they could try because

600
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:36,356
Speaker 3: their bar for late and wonderfulness is if it's not

601
00:29:36,396 --> 00:29:38,756
Speaker 3: one hundred percent, I'm not going to do it. And

602
00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:40,716
Speaker 3: then when you actually get down to how do you

603
00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:42,876
Speaker 3: know it's not going to be cool, they don't know.

604
00:29:43,036 --> 00:29:45,596
Speaker 3: They just heard it from a friend, or more likely

605
00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:47,956
Speaker 3: they're just afraid to try it. And so this is

606
00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:49,316
Speaker 3: a way of getting them unstuck.

607
00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:52,476
Speaker 1: So that's seeking out these moments of wonder and maybe

608
00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 1: even these tiny moments of wonder, not putting wonder like

609
00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:58,236
Speaker 1: you know, capital w wonder out. They look for. A

610
00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:01,116
Speaker 1: second strategy you've talked about a lot, is to attend

611
00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:05,116
Speaker 1: to coherence. Dave, what's coherence and why is it so important?

612
00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 2: Okay, So we define coherenceatives the intersection of the alignment

613
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,396
Speaker 2: of who you are, what you believe in, what you're doing.

614
00:30:12,316 --> 00:30:15,196
Speaker 2: The research on meaning will say that if you can

615
00:30:15,316 --> 00:30:17,836
Speaker 2: interconnect those three dots, who am I, what do I believing,

616
00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:20,156
Speaker 2: what am I doing? Then my life is coherent. I

617
00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:22,996
Speaker 2: am making sense in the world. I'm acting just like myself.

618
00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:26,396
Speaker 2: And if I don't have those dots connected, the chance

619
00:30:26,436 --> 00:30:28,636
Speaker 2: of meaning making goes way down now. Of course, the

620
00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:32,396
Speaker 2: prerequisite to connecting those dots is locating them. So we

621
00:30:32,476 --> 00:30:35,316
Speaker 2: have an exercise called the compass exercise which has three

622
00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:38,276
Speaker 2: components my current story, my workview, and my life you

623
00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 2: so three a little essays you're write that will help

624
00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:43,036
Speaker 2: you figure out the narrative that describes kind of who

625
00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:45,596
Speaker 2: you are now. Is that the totality of who you are? No,

626
00:30:45,756 --> 00:30:47,996
Speaker 2: but it's a real good start. We've been doing this

627
00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:49,916
Speaker 2: a couple one hundred thousand times now, so we kind

628
00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:51,596
Speaker 2: of got to hang out and it seems to be

629
00:30:51,636 --> 00:30:55,756
Speaker 2: working well for people. So coherency is when I'm actually

630
00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:57,716
Speaker 2: living out who I really am in the world, including

631
00:30:57,756 --> 00:31:02,036
Speaker 2: the compromises that I have to make. And a coherency sighting,

632
00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:05,716
Speaker 2: which is a meaning making tool, is catching yourself in

633
00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:10,116
Speaker 2: the act of when was I coherent today? So example,

634
00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:12,756
Speaker 2: a really lovely coherency siding for me, which is so

635
00:31:12,796 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 2: easy to miss, you know. One of the growing edges

636
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:17,916
Speaker 2: of life design at Stanford is not more and more classes,

637
00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:21,316
Speaker 2: but classes to different affinity groups. So there is a

638
00:31:21,356 --> 00:31:23,996
Speaker 2: pilot on designing your Muslim life. So the kids who

639
00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:27,996
Speaker 2: adhere to Islam feel pretty isolated and they would like

640
00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:30,076
Speaker 2: to be in this life conversation with people of a

641
00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:33,076
Speaker 2: similar mindset. So Bill gets them in a room the

642
00:31:33,196 --> 00:31:37,956
Speaker 2: Muslim chaplain. Bill the existential atheist are co teaching a

643
00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,276
Speaker 2: class and designing your Muslim life. And I'm the guy

644
00:31:40,316 --> 00:31:42,756
Speaker 2: with a seminary degree. I'm sitting in the back of

645
00:31:42,796 --> 00:31:46,396
Speaker 2: the room watching my atheist partner teach a spirituality class,

646
00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:50,996
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, this is so cool. I helped build

647
00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:55,076
Speaker 2: a place where people are integrating the spirituality even beyond

648
00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:58,436
Speaker 2: their personal ideology. That is such a coherent moment for me.

649
00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:00,796
Speaker 2: This is as good as it gets. And so it's

650
00:32:00,836 --> 00:32:03,476
Speaker 2: about catching ourselves in the act when it's actually working,

651
00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:05,356
Speaker 2: and guess what, it's working more often than you think.

652
00:32:06,036 --> 00:32:08,316
Speaker 1: It's time for a quick break. But when we return,

653
00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:11,156
Speaker 1: we'll explore some of my favorite tips for stepping into

654
00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:13,716
Speaker 1: the flow world, and we'll hear the surprising way that

655
00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 1: Bill is able to stay in the flow world almost

656
00:32:16,116 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 1: all the time. The Happiness Lab will be back at

657
00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:34,756
Speaker 1: a moment. We've been chatting with designers Dave Evans and

658
00:32:34,796 --> 00:32:37,316
Speaker 1: Bill Burnett and exploring how to get out of the

659
00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:40,716
Speaker 1: transactional world of doodoo doo all the time, so that

660
00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:44,076
Speaker 1: we can find ways into the flow world. Now, flow

661
00:32:44,156 --> 00:32:45,556
Speaker 1: is an idea that we talk about a lot on

662
00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:48,396
Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, but Bill and Dave have developed their

663
00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:49,916
Speaker 1: own unique take on the concept.

664
00:32:50,236 --> 00:32:52,516
Speaker 2: The original definition of flow according to me head check

665
00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:55,516
Speaker 2: Sime High the founder of this concept and a wonderful researcher,

666
00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:58,116
Speaker 2: and you know, the definitive work flow the Psychology of

667
00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:01,276
Speaker 2: Optimal Experience comes out some time ago and defines the

668
00:33:01,316 --> 00:33:05,436
Speaker 2: flow channel as being a zone where the challenge of

669
00:33:05,476 --> 00:33:07,796
Speaker 2: the task in which you are currently engaged and your

670
00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:11,916
Speaker 2: skill level are close to matched. Meaning you're not underskilled

671
00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:14,436
Speaker 2: and now you're anxious because you're going to fail. You're

672
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:16,836
Speaker 2: not overskilled, and you're bored because you could do this

673
00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:18,916
Speaker 2: in your sleep, but you're kind of really on it.

674
00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:22,356
Speaker 2: And so what happens is the task demands enough of

675
00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,476
Speaker 2: you that you could be fully engaged, and that zone

676
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:29,036
Speaker 2: is a place where you might drop into flow. There's like,

677
00:33:29,116 --> 00:33:31,956
Speaker 2: you know, APEX, when you're really in the zone that

678
00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,636
Speaker 2: amazing US hockey team to beat the Russians, you know,

679
00:33:34,676 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 2: you're totally in flow. That's great, and most people think

680
00:33:38,276 --> 00:33:40,876
Speaker 2: that's what flow is. But here's the problem. It's this

681
00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:44,836
Speaker 2: APEX experience, which makes it way too hard, particularly in

682
00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:50,156
Speaker 2: the simple task where I might be overskilled. We redefine

683
00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:53,636
Speaker 2: what we call simple flow. You don't have to let

684
00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:58,636
Speaker 2: boredom steal your brain. I mean, last night, the heater

685
00:33:58,756 --> 00:34:01,636
Speaker 2: went on at one in the morning, What the heck?

686
00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:04,276
Speaker 2: And I went upstairs and the thermostat had kind of exploded.

687
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,356
Speaker 2: So I went all the way down the nerd rabbit

688
00:34:07,396 --> 00:34:10,396
Speaker 2: hole of an old school thermace that didn't work very well,

689
00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:12,756
Speaker 2: and it only took me forty five minutes and I

690
00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:15,996
Speaker 2: fixed it, and I had the best time because I

691
00:34:16,036 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 2: went all the way into Not this is such a

692
00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:20,476
Speaker 2: pan of ass on, but it's kind of like Jeae.

693
00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:23,516
Speaker 2: I wonder what that nineteen eighties engineer was thinking when

694
00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:25,756
Speaker 2: he designed one of the worst UIs of all time.

695
00:34:26,076 --> 00:34:28,556
Speaker 2: How interesting this could be? And so I just chose

696
00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:30,716
Speaker 2: to go all the way in and enjoy the heck

697
00:34:30,756 --> 00:34:32,876
Speaker 2: out of solving my thermostat problem and saving a little

698
00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:36,196
Speaker 2: gas for Pacific asnal. You so just go with it.

699
00:34:36,236 --> 00:34:40,516
Speaker 2: That's a choice flow, full engagement in what you're doing,

700
00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:43,276
Speaker 2: which allows you to experience as much of your liveness

701
00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:46,276
Speaker 2: as that particular activity will permit to be expressed in

702
00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:52,076
Speaker 2: your scandalously particular self in this scandalously particular moment could

703
00:34:52,076 --> 00:34:52,956
Speaker 2: be a flow mode.

704
00:34:53,116 --> 00:34:55,236
Speaker 1: I love that flow really plays on this idea of

705
00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 1: the scandal of the particular, because we can only ever

706
00:34:57,796 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 1: get it in the present moment. It's not something we

707
00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:02,636
Speaker 1: can design for the future. Think about in the past, Bill,

708
00:35:02,676 --> 00:35:05,116
Speaker 1: you've also talked about how these moments of being in

709
00:35:05,156 --> 00:35:08,276
Speaker 1: flow really require being a little bit more embodied. Why

710
00:35:08,316 --> 00:35:09,676
Speaker 1: is embodiment so important?

711
00:35:11,036 --> 00:35:13,796
Speaker 3: Oh, you know this thing, this body, isn't just a

712
00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:15,756
Speaker 3: thing that takes my brain to meetings. I mean, we

713
00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:18,676
Speaker 3: know that there's a lot of neurology going on in

714
00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:22,036
Speaker 3: the gut, in the vagual nerves, and all the other systems.

715
00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:25,356
Speaker 3: So we are embodied creatures and we learn by moving

716
00:35:25,596 --> 00:35:29,156
Speaker 3: and working in the world. There's our intelligence, our IQ,

717
00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:31,676
Speaker 3: I guess you would say, the talking part of our brain.

718
00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:34,676
Speaker 3: There's our EQ, our emotional part of our brain. There's

719
00:35:34,716 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 3: our kinesthetic understanding of the world. How do we move

720
00:35:37,796 --> 00:35:41,076
Speaker 3: in the world, the appropriateception in our body. There's a

721
00:35:41,116 --> 00:35:43,956
Speaker 3: whole bunch of stuff coming up now around how the

722
00:35:43,956 --> 00:35:47,516
Speaker 3: body actually understands itself in the world. And so, you know,

723
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:50,716
Speaker 3: don't talk to me about artificial intelligence and disembodied computers.

724
00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:54,876
Speaker 3: You have to be inside this embodied intelligence because it's

725
00:35:54,916 --> 00:36:00,076
Speaker 3: also where where we feel our intuition, our curiosity, and

726
00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:03,196
Speaker 3: many of the triggers for flow have to do with,

727
00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:06,316
Speaker 3: you know, either releasing a dopamine circuit or releasing some

728
00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:09,556
Speaker 3: kind of a neural circuit that engages the rest of

729
00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 3: the body in that experience, which is why athletes often

730
00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:15,036
Speaker 3: to talk about being in the zone or things. It's

731
00:36:15,076 --> 00:36:19,916
Speaker 3: a physical kinesthetic flow. So these are all embodiments of

732
00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:23,356
Speaker 3: ourselves in a time and space in the world that

733
00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:26,356
Speaker 3: are all triggers to what we were calling simple flow

734
00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:28,596
Speaker 3: or the flow state that's available all the time. One

735
00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:31,636
Speaker 3: of our analogies, it's like an aquifer running right under

736
00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:33,196
Speaker 3: the surface. All you got to do is drill a

737
00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:36,436
Speaker 3: hole and there's plenty of water. You just got to

738
00:36:36,476 --> 00:36:38,956
Speaker 3: dig into that thing that's right beneath you.

739
00:36:39,076 --> 00:36:40,876
Speaker 2: Bill I called the flow Master. Bill has love flow

740
00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:44,356
Speaker 2: for a long time. He's like Captain Flow. Bill. You know,

741
00:36:44,596 --> 00:36:46,636
Speaker 2: more than a few times you'll tell me something like,

742
00:36:46,676 --> 00:36:48,076
Speaker 2: oh God, you know, it's really been great. I've been

743
00:36:48,116 --> 00:36:51,236
Speaker 2: in flow for four days now. I mean, you claim

744
00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:56,916
Speaker 2: to attain this persistent flow state. Can you give the

745
00:36:56,996 --> 00:36:59,076
Speaker 2: listeners any tips on how the heck do you pull

746
00:36:59,156 --> 00:36:59,636
Speaker 2: that off?

747
00:37:00,716 --> 00:37:03,916
Speaker 3: It's both something I try to do and it's a

748
00:37:03,956 --> 00:37:08,716
Speaker 3: mystery fundamentally, but I really get back to it depends

749
00:37:08,716 --> 00:37:12,436
Speaker 3: on what you're looking for. And so when I start

750
00:37:12,476 --> 00:37:14,836
Speaker 3: my day, I've been for along many many years now,

751
00:37:14,876 --> 00:37:17,436
Speaker 3: I start the day with an affirmation where I say

752
00:37:17,996 --> 00:37:20,596
Speaker 3: I live in the best of all possible worlds because

753
00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:24,436
Speaker 3: as date mentioned, I'm an extential atheist, so truly the

754
00:37:25,116 --> 00:37:28,916
Speaker 3: radical acceptance that this is it might as well be

755
00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:32,076
Speaker 3: the best, And everything I do today I choose to do.

756
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:35,676
Speaker 3: Choosing into my experience, I think is there's the number

757
00:37:35,676 --> 00:37:36,996
Speaker 3: one way in which I find flow.

758
00:37:37,436 --> 00:37:40,356
Speaker 2: That's the voice of availability. But that's what availability sounds like.

759
00:37:40,636 --> 00:37:43,436
Speaker 3: I'm pretty good at being simultaneously I get stuff done.

760
00:37:43,516 --> 00:37:46,676
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, some people might I'm absent minded,

761
00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:51,156
Speaker 3: but it's just because my mind is something else, not

762
00:37:51,276 --> 00:37:54,076
Speaker 3: on whatever their priority is in the transaction world. But

763
00:37:54,156 --> 00:37:58,076
Speaker 3: it's also you know, I've practiced creativity. I'm a painter

764
00:37:58,596 --> 00:38:01,916
Speaker 3: and I'm an artist. I spend a lot of time

765
00:38:03,156 --> 00:38:06,916
Speaker 3: in that wonderful you know's a quote from Robert Henry.

766
00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:08,716
Speaker 3: The goal isn't to make artists to be in that

767
00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:12,516
Speaker 3: wonderful state of mind that makes art inevitable. So I

768
00:38:12,596 --> 00:38:14,276
Speaker 3: try to spend a lot of time in the state

769
00:38:14,316 --> 00:38:16,076
Speaker 3: of mind that makes flow inevitable.

770
00:38:17,396 --> 00:38:19,116
Speaker 1: Another thing you seem to both spend a lot of

771
00:38:19,116 --> 00:38:21,596
Speaker 1: time in is the last suggestion that you have for

772
00:38:21,636 --> 00:38:23,796
Speaker 1: everyone for how to get into the flow world more,

773
00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:25,876
Speaker 1: which is that you both spend a lot of time

774
00:38:25,996 --> 00:38:30,836
Speaker 1: in community. Why is community so important for design thinking generally?

775
00:38:31,916 --> 00:38:34,716
Speaker 3: Well, community, I mean, in terms of design, design is

776
00:38:34,756 --> 00:38:37,196
Speaker 3: always done on teams. It's always done with people. You

777
00:38:37,236 --> 00:38:39,996
Speaker 3: want to radically collaborate with people of different points of view.

778
00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:42,996
Speaker 3: But the community part in the new book really comes

779
00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:47,516
Speaker 3: from Dave's experience teaching apartment standard called the Distinguished Career Institute.

780
00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:49,556
Speaker 3: It's a gap year for grown ups. People come to

781
00:38:49,556 --> 00:38:53,196
Speaker 3: Stanford for a year after a distinguished career and they

782
00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:55,636
Speaker 3: spend time trying to figure out the pivot, the thing

783
00:38:55,636 --> 00:38:57,516
Speaker 3: they're going to do next in their lives. These are

784
00:38:57,556 --> 00:39:02,116
Speaker 3: pretty smart, successful people, Dave, how does this community thing

785
00:39:02,196 --> 00:39:02,836
Speaker 3: work with them?

786
00:39:03,756 --> 00:39:05,836
Speaker 2: Well, it's been interesting, first of all, and we do

787
00:39:06,276 --> 00:39:08,836
Speaker 2: community work at all our classes, and we often say

788
00:39:08,876 --> 00:39:12,796
Speaker 2: it's almost impossible to hear yourself by yourself. Dan Siegel,

789
00:39:12,876 --> 00:39:15,036
Speaker 2: you know, formerly out of the UCLA at the Mindset Institute,

790
00:39:15,076 --> 00:39:17,956
Speaker 2: will remind us all that, in fact, the autonomous itself

791
00:39:18,076 --> 00:39:20,396
Speaker 2: is a profoundly toxic c line. We now know scientifically

792
00:39:20,436 --> 00:39:23,476
Speaker 2: the consciousness extends. This is the nature of human consciousness.

793
00:39:23,516 --> 00:39:25,596
Speaker 2: We are deeply involved with each other. So if you

794
00:39:25,636 --> 00:39:28,596
Speaker 2: start understanding that, then you really want to leverage what

795
00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:30,756
Speaker 2: it means to be in community, because that the fullness

796
00:39:30,796 --> 00:39:33,276
Speaker 2: of you is really only available as part of us.

797
00:39:34,316 --> 00:39:37,236
Speaker 2: And so what we found at this distinguished Careers group,

798
00:39:37,316 --> 00:39:41,436
Speaker 2: I started putting people into design teams, not to design

799
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:43,596
Speaker 2: the life after their program, but to get the most

800
00:39:43,636 --> 00:39:46,516
Speaker 2: from it in the present moment. And the nice thing

801
00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:48,996
Speaker 2: about these folks, these thirty five to forty five people

802
00:39:49,276 --> 00:39:51,436
Speaker 2: forty five to ninety years old, mostly fifty five to

803
00:39:51,436 --> 00:39:53,916
Speaker 2: seventy five thinking about what do I do next? And

804
00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:56,956
Speaker 2: they're here to become their fuller selves and they spend

805
00:39:57,036 --> 00:40:00,436
Speaker 2: some time just exploring. So this idea of we're all

806
00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:04,876
Speaker 2: becoming can you become more intentionally? And so the fellows

807
00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:06,356
Speaker 2: look at each other kind of go, well, hi, who

808
00:40:06,396 --> 00:40:08,436
Speaker 2: are you? You know, I'm Dave, I'm Lori Santos. What

809
00:40:08,556 --> 00:40:10,476
Speaker 2: are you into? I'm going an happiness thing. Oh really,

810
00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:12,556
Speaker 2: that's so cool. And they take each other at face

811
00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:14,476
Speaker 2: value and the only thing they want to do for

812
00:40:14,516 --> 00:40:17,156
Speaker 2: each other is help one another become their more authentic selves.

813
00:40:17,836 --> 00:40:19,876
Speaker 2: And what's funny is that a couple of weeks into

814
00:40:19,916 --> 00:40:23,196
Speaker 2: the program they will all say, these are the best

815
00:40:23,196 --> 00:40:26,636
Speaker 2: friends I've ever made. And mylne is I'm not buying it.

816
00:40:26,836 --> 00:40:29,476
Speaker 2: You created corporate cultures. Almost all of them have big families,

817
00:40:29,996 --> 00:40:32,196
Speaker 2: aren't most of you offending off hundreds of people.

818
00:40:31,956 --> 00:40:32,636
Speaker 3: Saying where are you?

819
00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:34,756
Speaker 2: Or mische you've been going for you and you're telling

820
00:40:34,796 --> 00:40:37,556
Speaker 2: me these thirty five yahoos that some admission officer at

821
00:40:37,556 --> 00:40:39,996
Speaker 2: Stanford threw you into a room with you've never met

822
00:40:40,036 --> 00:40:42,436
Speaker 2: before in six weeks become the best friends you've ever had.

823
00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:44,916
Speaker 3: Really, And they go yeah.

824
00:40:44,956 --> 00:40:48,356
Speaker 2: And the reason is because they're in this kind of

825
00:40:48,436 --> 00:40:53,196
Speaker 2: community where the intention of our interaction is not just

826
00:40:53,236 --> 00:40:55,636
Speaker 2: having a good time. That's a social gathering. It's not

827
00:40:55,636 --> 00:40:58,836
Speaker 2: getting something done that's a collaborative gathering. And my argument

828
00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:00,396
Speaker 2: is ninety nine percent of what people do in the

829
00:41:00,396 --> 00:41:04,756
Speaker 2: transactional world is social or collaborative wonderful things. But then

830
00:41:04,836 --> 00:41:08,156
Speaker 2: there's a formative community, which is why are we together.

831
00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:11,356
Speaker 2: We're together to become our better selves and to enjoy

832
00:41:11,396 --> 00:41:14,636
Speaker 2: more fully of the self we're presently trying on. So

833
00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:17,876
Speaker 2: that is a different conversation with different questions and a

834
00:41:17,956 --> 00:41:19,836
Speaker 2: trans I don't have to be in the same thing.

835
00:41:19,916 --> 00:41:22,556
Speaker 2: So the climate change fanatic and the person who wants

836
00:41:22,596 --> 00:41:24,956
Speaker 2: to become a fine artist, they can be in the

837
00:41:24,956 --> 00:41:27,476
Speaker 2: same group because they're not collaborating on the content of

838
00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:30,436
Speaker 2: their lives. They're collaborating on the intent of their lives,

839
00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:35,076
Speaker 2: which is becoming. So when we set people in relationships

840
00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:37,796
Speaker 2: that allow becoming to occur, which all you need to

841
00:41:37,796 --> 00:41:40,516
Speaker 2: be as a thoughtful, self aware person, stuff happens.

842
00:41:41,196 --> 00:41:43,876
Speaker 1: And so for folks that maybe can't join this Stanford

843
00:41:43,916 --> 00:41:46,956
Speaker 1: group but really want to form a similar formative community

844
00:41:47,156 --> 00:41:50,156
Speaker 1: and focus on becoming any tips, the.

845
00:41:50,076 --> 00:41:52,836
Speaker 2: Savile answer is, frankly, come up with some generative questions.

846
00:41:52,836 --> 00:41:56,236
Speaker 2: I did this at Thanksgiving, actually three Thanksgivings, and in

847
00:41:56,316 --> 00:41:59,996
Speaker 2: all the dinners I brought three questions, and those questions

848
00:42:00,036 --> 00:42:04,796
Speaker 2: were formative, not transactional or entertainment. One was boy, the

849
00:42:04,836 --> 00:42:06,716
Speaker 2: world's kind of full of a lot of ugly things

850
00:42:06,716 --> 00:42:10,156
Speaker 2: these days. When were you recently surprised by someone doing

851
00:42:10,196 --> 00:42:14,316
Speaker 2: something good? They've restored your faith in humanity? And guess what,

852
00:42:14,396 --> 00:42:18,196
Speaker 2: everybody had an answer. I asked directly, what have you

853
00:42:18,276 --> 00:42:20,316
Speaker 2: become this year? Or what are you hoping to become

854
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:23,236
Speaker 2: next year? And you know, maybe two out of ten

855
00:42:23,236 --> 00:42:24,756
Speaker 2: people are like, WHOA, that's a little much, you know,

856
00:42:24,916 --> 00:42:27,156
Speaker 2: But in addis tid oh, well you know what I'm

857
00:42:27,156 --> 00:42:30,396
Speaker 2: becoming is? And the other is is there a letter

858
00:42:30,476 --> 00:42:32,116
Speaker 2: in you that needs to get out? And if so,

859
00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:34,556
Speaker 2: what is it and who's it too? And those are

860
00:42:34,636 --> 00:42:38,996
Speaker 2: all becoming kinds of questions and people are surprisingly available.

861
00:42:39,036 --> 00:42:40,876
Speaker 2: So the key thing if you want to start forming

862
00:42:41,476 --> 00:42:44,916
Speaker 2: a more formative community is have better question.

863
00:42:46,036 --> 00:42:47,756
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that I think we get wrong

864
00:42:47,836 --> 00:42:49,676
Speaker 1: all the time. There's such a lovely work by folks

865
00:42:49,756 --> 00:42:52,236
Speaker 1: like Nick Eppley that find that we often go for

866
00:42:52,316 --> 00:42:55,316
Speaker 1: shallow questions, especially for a dinner party something like Thanksgiving

867
00:42:55,396 --> 00:42:59,116
Speaker 1: or holiday meal or something. But really what people resonate

868
00:42:59,156 --> 00:43:01,836
Speaker 1: with answering are these so called deep questions, questions that

869
00:43:01,836 --> 00:43:04,516
Speaker 1: are vulnerable, which I think have a lot of features

870
00:43:04,556 --> 00:43:07,796
Speaker 1: of these becoming questions. Right, what are these emotions that

871
00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:10,076
Speaker 1: you want to share? How can we focus things in

872
00:43:10,116 --> 00:43:12,116
Speaker 1: a different way, How can you take a different perspective,

873
00:43:12,156 --> 00:43:15,196
Speaker 1: How can you reframe to steal the designers thinking It

874
00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:17,476
Speaker 1: seems like we've known this in social science for a while,

875
00:43:17,516 --> 00:43:19,316
Speaker 1: but we can really apply it to becoming more in

876
00:43:19,356 --> 00:43:21,796
Speaker 1: the full world and finding these moments of meaning making.

877
00:43:22,156 --> 00:43:24,596
Speaker 2: People want to have the experience of interacting with each

878
00:43:24,596 --> 00:43:27,236
Speaker 2: other in meaningful ways, So think of a way to

879
00:43:27,276 --> 00:43:30,116
Speaker 2: say something kindly. Have your own story ready to go.

880
00:43:30,196 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 2: Don't make it be about you, But if you want

881
00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:33,476
Speaker 2: to get it in the deep water, jump in the

882
00:43:33,476 --> 00:43:36,076
Speaker 2: pool first, and I think you'll be surprised. People are

883
00:43:36,076 --> 00:43:37,316
Speaker 2: pretty good to each other if.

884
00:43:37,276 --> 00:43:39,916
Speaker 3: You give them a chance, and they're desperate for these

885
00:43:39,956 --> 00:43:43,236
Speaker 3: conversations and these kinds of communities, right the loneliness epidemic.

886
00:43:43,676 --> 00:43:45,516
Speaker 3: They're not going to find it on social media. They're

887
00:43:45,516 --> 00:43:47,716
Speaker 3: not going to find it in these other places. You know,

888
00:43:47,836 --> 00:43:49,636
Speaker 3: when people are trying to think about how can I

889
00:43:49,636 --> 00:43:52,156
Speaker 3: improve my life? What can I do to make it better?

890
00:43:52,676 --> 00:43:56,396
Speaker 3: Getting rid of these dysfunctional beliefs, leaning into these meaning

891
00:43:56,596 --> 00:44:01,156
Speaker 3: making moments and creating communities instead of echo chambers and

892
00:44:01,476 --> 00:44:04,436
Speaker 3: arguing and all this other stuff that's going on. You know,

893
00:44:05,156 --> 00:44:08,196
Speaker 3: Dave is a big Jesus guy and I'm a big

894
00:44:08,356 --> 00:44:11,156
Speaker 3: you know, not needs just needs you. Again. We've been

895
00:44:11,196 --> 00:44:15,556
Speaker 3: collaborating for twenty some years on this work and it's

896
00:44:15,596 --> 00:44:18,036
Speaker 3: the best collaboration I've ever had. So you don't have

897
00:44:18,116 --> 00:44:22,316
Speaker 3: to agree on things in order to be in the collaboration,

898
00:44:22,716 --> 00:44:26,156
Speaker 3: particularly if the collaboration is about how to become the

899
00:44:26,196 --> 00:44:30,636
Speaker 3: best version of yourself. And with that intention, do anything.

900
00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:32,716
Speaker 3: Start a book club, start a sell on where people

901
00:44:32,716 --> 00:44:34,796
Speaker 3: get together and everybody gets to ask one question. But

902
00:44:34,836 --> 00:44:37,596
Speaker 3: the questions can't be in the transaction world. That's the

903
00:44:37,596 --> 00:44:38,116
Speaker 3: only rule.

904
00:44:39,076 --> 00:44:40,836
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for figuring out ways that

905
00:44:40,876 --> 00:44:42,916
Speaker 1: we can find a few more of these moments of

906
00:44:42,956 --> 00:44:44,556
Speaker 1: meaning if we're doing it in a way that I

907
00:44:44,556 --> 00:44:47,396
Speaker 1: think really resonates with everybody that's feeling stuck right now,

908
00:44:47,396 --> 00:44:50,396
Speaker 1: which is not by creaming more in but getting more

909
00:44:50,436 --> 00:44:52,356
Speaker 1: out of the moments that we already have.

910
00:44:53,156 --> 00:44:55,276
Speaker 2: Well, thanks, And here's the little ps by the way,

911
00:44:55,476 --> 00:44:57,876
Speaker 2: while we duck the question what is the meaning of

912
00:44:57,916 --> 00:45:01,956
Speaker 2: your life? And let's just live more meaningfully along the way.

913
00:45:02,036 --> 00:45:05,316
Speaker 2: Let's live more purposefully on the way too. Whatever we're

914
00:45:05,356 --> 00:45:08,396
Speaker 2: going to find later. It turns out, if you get

915
00:45:08,436 --> 00:45:11,396
Speaker 2: good at this, that meaning of life thing is going

916
00:45:11,436 --> 00:45:13,316
Speaker 2: to come into view a lot more soon, a lot

917
00:45:13,356 --> 00:45:13,956
Speaker 2: more Clearly.

918
00:45:15,836 --> 00:45:18,276
Speaker 1: Figure out the meaning of life is hard, but I

919
00:45:18,316 --> 00:45:20,716
Speaker 1: hope that this episode has convinced you that there's plenty

920
00:45:20,756 --> 00:45:23,556
Speaker 1: of ways to find a meaning in life, even when

921
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:26,796
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like it. If you're feeling stuck, why

922
00:45:26,836 --> 00:45:29,316
Speaker 1: not commit to turning towards some new moments of meaning

923
00:45:29,356 --> 00:45:31,916
Speaker 1: this week? And if you want even more advice about

924
00:45:31,916 --> 00:45:34,436
Speaker 1: how to do that, check out Bill and Dave's new book,

925
00:45:34,636 --> 00:45:37,236
Speaker 1: How to Live a Meaningful Life, which is out this week.

926
00:45:38,396 --> 00:45:40,876
Speaker 1: That's a wrap on our series about getting unstuck in

927
00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:43,836
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six. What do you think? Why not let

928
00:45:43,956 --> 00:45:46,876
Speaker 1: us know? You can email us at Happiness Lab at

929
00:45:46,876 --> 00:45:49,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin dot fm, or leave us a review to tell

930
00:45:49,796 --> 00:45:52,156
Speaker 1: us what you liked. You can also sign up to

931
00:45:52,236 --> 00:45:54,436
Speaker 1: learn more about the science of happiness with my free

932
00:45:54,476 --> 00:45:58,556
Speaker 1: newsletter on my website, Doctor Laurie Santos dot com. That's

933
00:45:58,676 --> 00:46:02,316
Speaker 1: d R l a U ri E. Santos dot com.

934
00:46:02,956 --> 00:46:05,396
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week, just in time for Valentine's

935
00:46:05,436 --> 00:46:07,796
Speaker 1: Day with a new series on the Science of Love.

936
00:46:08,436 --> 00:46:10,716
Speaker 1: In our first Step episode, we'll explore what we get

937
00:46:10,756 --> 00:46:13,356
Speaker 1: wrong about love. We'll learn why the love we get

938
00:46:13,356 --> 00:46:16,636
Speaker 1: from others doesn't always register emotionally, and what we can

939
00:46:16,676 --> 00:46:18,276
Speaker 1: do to open ourselves up to it.

940
00:46:18,756 --> 00:46:20,476
Speaker 2: We can be loved, you know. We can have all

941
00:46:20,476 --> 00:46:23,436
Speaker 2: these people in our lives that kind of objectively love us,

942
00:46:23,756 --> 00:46:26,316
Speaker 2: or we don't actually feel loved by them, or maybe

943
00:46:26,396 --> 00:46:27,996
Speaker 2: not feel loved by them or as much as we

944
00:46:28,076 --> 00:46:28,516
Speaker 2: want to be.

945
00:46:29,396 --> 00:46:32,076
Speaker 1: That's next week on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor

946
00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:38,476
Speaker 1: Laurie Santos