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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, any aliens yet, not so far, at least

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Speaker 1: not that I'm aware of.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, do you think they're not hearing your invitations to

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Speaker 2: come on the podcast?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, if they're hearing the podcast, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: why they're staying away.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, are you seeing our podcast? Is keeping humanity

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Speaker 2: for making first contact with an alien species?

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Speaker 1: It could be. But you know, if they don't like

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Speaker 1: dad jokes or bananas or chocolate, do we really want

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Speaker 1: to talk to them?

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Speaker 2: That's right? They can't be very cool if they don't

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Speaker 2: like any of those things. I mean, what are we

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Speaker 2: going to talk about with them?

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Speaker 1: I know that is in the end the great filter.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Hori, ma cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 2: Big Universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor a

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Speaker 1: uc Ermine, and I live five miles from the most

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Speaker 1: famous chocolate covered banana joint.

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Speaker 2: Wait what, I didn't know this? What makes it the

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Speaker 2: most famous one?

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Speaker 1: You've never seen? Arrested Development.

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Speaker 2: I've seen the show. I guess I'm not a super fan.

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Speaker 2: Is that like a real thing? Like the one featured

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Speaker 2: in the show is a real thing?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, absolutely, it's a real thing. In fact, there

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Speaker 1: are two chocolate covered frozen banana stands on Balbo Island

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Speaker 1: near my house, and they both claim to be the original.

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Speaker 2: Well one of them is lying. Then, yes, one of

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Speaker 2: them is lying, or one of them is wrong at least,

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Speaker 2: or maybe they're both wrong. Maybe the original one is

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Speaker 2: in New Jersey or something.

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Speaker 1: Either way, they're feuding about bananas and chocolate.

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Speaker 2: But then, which is one featured in the show that

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Speaker 2: must be the most famous one.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if the one featured in the show

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Speaker 1: is one of the real ones, or if it's a

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Speaker 1: fictional stand.

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Speaker 2: In Oh interesting, So then neither of them is very famous.

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Speaker 1: The concept of Newport Beach chocolate covered for as bananas

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Speaker 1: is famous.

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Speaker 2: Have you tried it? Is it good?

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Speaker 1: You know? Not a fan of the bananas.

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Speaker 2: Is it worth going to Bubblea Island to have them?

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Speaker 1: No? Not a fan of the bananas. Even if you're

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Speaker 1: covered in chocolate.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what if it's a dark chocolate that's better?

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Speaker 1: Definitely better, but not good enough?

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Speaker 2: You would stop at the banana like you would eat

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Speaker 2: it anything but the banana.

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Speaker 1: It's just a chocolate delivery system, exactly the banana's got

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Speaker 1: nothing to represent.

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Speaker 2: I would have thought it's the food that bring us

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Speaker 2: all together. Daniel, It's like this podcast is a chocolate

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Speaker 2: covered banana.

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Speaker 1: I know, and it's a big joke, so you think

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Speaker 1: we'd love it.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, speaking of podcasts, welcome to our podcast, Daniel

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Speaker 2: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio, in

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Speaker 2: which we.

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Speaker 1: Try to feed you the secrets of the universe. We

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Speaker 1: dip them in chocolate, we freeze them, we do everything

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Speaker 1: we can to make them palatable because we think that

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Speaker 1: everything that's out there in the universe can be understood

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Speaker 1: and deserves to be understood by me and by you

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Speaker 1: and by everybody out there. Explanations are possible, and you

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Speaker 1: deserve to hear them.

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Speaker 2: That's right to hear on this podcast, which is in fact,

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Speaker 2: the most popular podcast called Daniel and Jorge Explain the

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Speaker 2: Universe that has not been featured in a TV show yet.

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Speaker 1: That's true, that's highly qualified, but also accurate.

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Speaker 2: It's all the details. You could read the fine prints.

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Speaker 1: We're probably also the most successful podcast that mentions the

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Speaker 1: word banana so often there might be podcasts dedicated to bananas.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you're making an unscientific claim. Have you

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Speaker 2: sampled all other podcasts to make that claim? I have not.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing I'm definitely speculating. The first step in science

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Speaker 1: is speculating. Right then you go out, you gather some data.

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Speaker 2: Let's see, that's your hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: I'll follow up on it.

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Speaker 2: That's your dull hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: Nature is always full of surprises, and so maybe the

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Speaker 1: podcast Universe will surprise me.

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Speaker 2: We'll see, we'll see. But anyways, we do like to

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Speaker 2: take facts about the universe and all the amazing things

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Speaker 2: that are happening out there, cover them in delicious chocolate,

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Speaker 2: and then tell them to you so that you can

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Speaker 2: also appreciate what's out there and the dark mysteries of

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Speaker 2: the cosmos.

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Speaker 1: But this podcast isn't just us talking about the universe.

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Speaker 1: It's a conversation between us and you. We want to

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Speaker 1: know what you don't understand about the universe. We'd love

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Speaker 1: to know what puzzles you, what you'd like to hear

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Speaker 1: more about, and what explanations you find unsatisfactory. So if

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Speaker 1: you have questions about how the universe works, or you've

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Speaker 1: always heard something explained a certain way and it never

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Speaker 1: really clicked. Please write to us to questions at Danielandjorge

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Speaker 1: dot com. We will write back to you and help

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Speaker 1: you figure it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because even though it sort of starts with guessing,

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Speaker 2: before guessing comes to questions, right, scientific progress starts with

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Speaker 2: somebody looking at something and going, huh, how does that work?

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Speaker 2: Why is that the way it is? And can I

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Speaker 2: freeze it and cover it in chocolate?

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Speaker 1: Every scientific question ends with can I freeze it and

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Speaker 1: cover it in chocolate?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Can you take a cork, freeze it and covered

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Speaker 2: it in dark matter chocolate?

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Speaker 1: These are some dark forces we're playing with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tasty field of research there, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it all starts with questions. And as you said, Daniel,

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Speaker 2: we love to take questions from our listeners, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: we dedicate whole episodes to answering them, or at least

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Speaker 2: trying to answer them.

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Speaker 1: To making silly jokes about them. At the very minimum,

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Speaker 1: if I get a question that I think, hmm, I

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Speaker 1: bet other people want to hear the answer to this,

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Speaker 1: or I'm Sureorge has some funny things to say about

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Speaker 1: this topic, then instead of just running back to you,

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Speaker 1: we will answer it here on the podcast For everybody

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Speaker 1: to hear.

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Speaker 2: Wait, are you saying there are questions you get and

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Speaker 2: you're like, nobody else wants to know the answer. You're like,

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Speaker 2: only the person asking this question could possibly be interested

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Speaker 2: in this topic.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. People send me their crazy, detailed theories of the

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Speaker 1: universe and they want specific answers to why it works

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Speaker 1: or doesn't work. That's not the kind of thing we

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Speaker 1: talk about on the.

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Speaker 2: Podcast, although maybe we should. I don't know. I wonder

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Speaker 2: if that would make an interesting episode to get some

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Speaker 2: of your theories about the universe that you get and

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Speaker 2: then figure out why they're not true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it would. And if I ever find one

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Speaker 1: that is compelling that does sound great, then absolutely we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about it on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Or I mean we can. I'll shoot another podcast, you know,

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Speaker 2: Daniel and Jorge shoot down your theory of everything.

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Speaker 1: Why You're wrong about the universe with Daniel.

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Speaker 2: Yes, or just why you're wrong? That's actually a pretty

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Speaker 2: good idea there.

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Speaker 1: There's a podcast already called wrong about Everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we be the more famous one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about bananas more than the other one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We recorded in Bubble Island, which automatically makes it

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Speaker 2: more famous. But Anyways, we do like to ask her questions,

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Speaker 2: and so today on the podcast, we'll be tackling listener questions.

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Speaker 2: Number fifty two. Is fifty two an important number?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one more important than fifty one.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it has area fifty two connotations.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that area fifty one?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Is it? No? I'm talking about the extra secret

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Speaker 2: area that people don't even know exists. It's the one

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Speaker 2: after the area fifty one.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you don't tell anyone about Area fifty three.

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Speaker 1: That's double extra secret. You need one more level of clearance.

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Speaker 1: They know about that, don't tell me because I have

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Speaker 1: no security clearance.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, we like to answer questions here, and today

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Speaker 2: we have three great questions from listeners. One of them

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Speaker 2: is about Daniel's favorite topic, aliens. The other one is

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Speaker 2: about the electromagnetic force and why it works the way

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Speaker 2: it does. And the third one is about saving humanity

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Speaker 2: by destroying something that maybe a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Hold, precious chocolate covered bananas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll cover the moon in troublin. All right, Well,

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Speaker 2: let's jump right in, Daniel. Our first question comes from Nick,

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Speaker 2: who's from Tucson, Arizona.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 4: Daniel and Jorge. This is Nick from Tucson, Arizona. Growing

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Speaker 4: up in a city that is so richly involved in

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Speaker 4: science and astronomy, asking questions about our universes become second nature.

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Speaker 4: One of the reasons questions I've had is this, in

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Speaker 4: our search for life elsewhere in the universe, we see

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Speaker 4: abundant evidence that we are likely not alone in the universe. However,

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Speaker 4: on the off chance that we actually are, at what

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Speaker 4: point do we make that determination? Given one cannot prove

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Speaker 4: a negative. I'm excited to hear your breakdown of how

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Speaker 4: we tackle such a dilemma. Thanks for being awesome.

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Speaker 2: All right, interesting question from Nick here. I feel like

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Speaker 2: he's basically asking, how will we ever know whether we're

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Speaker 2: alone in the universe or not?

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Speaker 1: It's a good question, and I think he's also asking

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Speaker 1: what can we say. Is there some point at which

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Speaker 1: we draw the line and say we're done looking we've

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Speaker 1: decided we're alone.

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Speaker 2: Like at some point in the future, if we never

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Speaker 2: hear from other aliens and kind have to figure it

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Speaker 2: out that maybe we are alone? Right like it nobody

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Speaker 2: ever comes to visit you to your house, obviously, the

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Speaker 2: answer is that you're the only person on Earth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or everybody hates you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the explanation. But let's keep diluting ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I think this question is really interesting from the philosophical

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Speaker 1: point of view, like how could you ever know whether

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Speaker 1: we're alone? And also it reveals something about how we

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Speaker 1: make statements in science, how you can make statistical arguments

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Speaker 1: even if you can't ever make definitive arguments.

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Speaker 2: Well, Nick brings up the idea that it's impossible to

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Speaker 2: prove a negative right. It's technically theoretically possible to say,

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Speaker 2: for example, that there are no pink unicorns out there

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Speaker 2: in the universe, because there might be, and so you'd

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Speaker 2: have to check every little nuk and cranny of the

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Speaker 2: entire cosmos to be able to say that such a

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Speaker 2: unicorn does not exist exactly.

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Speaker 1: And even checking every little nuok and cranny the last

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Speaker 1: cosmos doesn't prove it right, especially in a case of aliens,

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Speaker 1: where the category is so broad and undefined. It's basically

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Speaker 1: any sension being that doesn't come from Earth. You could

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Speaker 1: have lots of different characteristics that we don't anticipate. You

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Speaker 1: might imagine, oh, if we check every single planet out

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Speaker 1: there and we don't find aliens, then now we're alone,

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Speaker 1: but aliens could always exist in some manner we didn't anticipate.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we might not find aliens on rocky planets,

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Speaker 1: but they could exist in gas giants or underground, or

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Speaker 1: in the center of stars, or in dark matter, or

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Speaker 1: in some other way we hadn't imagined. So it's impossible

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Speaker 1: to ever say we are totally alone in the universe.

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Speaker 1: You can discover aliens, you can meet them and conclude

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Speaker 1: that they're there. But you're right that we can't technically

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Speaker 1: say definitively that we are alone.

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Speaker 2: Right, ever, Right, Like, it's theoretically impossible.

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Speaker 1: It's theoretically impossible to make a completely definitive statement. But

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Speaker 1: I also think that's too high a bar. That's not

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Speaker 1: the bar we use in science, for example.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you mean being correct is too high of a bar.

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Speaker 1: Making absolute definitive statements is not the business we're in.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's not the business because you can't do it.

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Speaker 1: You can't do it.

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Speaker 2: You try to do it, you wouldn't be able to do.

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Speaker 1: It, Yeah, exactly, And so instead we have statistical tools

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Speaker 1: that tell us, like how confident we can be in

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Speaker 1: a statement. You could never say anything really definitively, even

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Speaker 1: things like the Higgs boson. When we discovered the Higgs boson,

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Speaker 1: we claim discovery of it, but we also said, here

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Speaker 1: are the chances that we're wrong. Here's the chances that

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Speaker 1: the Higgs boson doesn't exist, and it just sort of

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Speaker 1: looks like it does right.

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Speaker 2: Right. That just kind of gets to how science actually works,

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Speaker 2: which is through this idea of the null hypothesis. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, even the Higgs boson, it's not like you

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Speaker 2: went out there and you said, well, I have a

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Speaker 2: certain degree of confidence of the Higgs boson exists. You're

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Speaker 2: actually really what you're saying in your science papers is saying,

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Speaker 2: we have a certain degree of confidence that not having

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Speaker 2: the Higgs boson is not possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we calculate very precisely the probability of having been

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Speaker 1: fooled because remember, we don't see the Higgs directly. It's

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Speaker 1: not like something we can say, here is one look

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Speaker 1: at it. It's not like discovering a unicorn in the forest.

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Speaker 1: We only see its footprints and its hair left on trees,

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Speaker 1: and we have indirect evidence like we almost always do

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Speaker 1: in science, and so we can calculate the probability of

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Speaker 1: seeing that indirect evidence without there being a Higgs boson,

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Speaker 1: which is not zero, and we could say, well, we

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Speaker 1: rule that out, not completely, not definitively, but we can

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Speaker 1: say it's very unlikely, and we can be very specific

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Speaker 1: about the level at which it's unlikely, and there's a

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Speaker 1: standard threshold above which we're allowed to say we've discovered it,

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Speaker 1: we've pretty much settled it. But of course it's never definitive.

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Speaker 2: Although I wonder if with something like the Higgs boson,

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Speaker 2: you maybe you can't say that you've seen one, right,

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Speaker 2: Like if you collide something and you see a particle

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Speaker 2: fly out of it, then the maybe you could say

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Speaker 2: that it is there with a one hundred percent confidence.

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Speaker 1: We can never say that with one hundred percent confidence.

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Speaker 1: The Higgs boson lasts for like ten to the minus

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Speaker 1: twenty three seconds. We can never see. We only see

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Speaker 1: what it turns into, unfortunately. But that's the case of discovery,

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Speaker 1: which is special and wonderful. We can also play statistical

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Speaker 1: games when we don't discover something. We can say, for example, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's a new particle. If it did exist, we probably

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Speaker 1: would have seen it, and so we can conclude that

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Speaker 1: it likely doesn't exist, and that's not getting definitive. It

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Speaker 1: could be that we got unlucky or something. But it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, looking for Bigfoot. If you

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Speaker 1: look all through the forest and you don't see Bigfoot,

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Speaker 1: then you can say, well, Bigfoot might exist, but he's

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Speaker 1: got to be pretty rare or pretty sneaky, or got

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Speaker 1: some camouflage technique that we didn't think of already. You

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Speaker 1: can still make negative statements even if they're not definitive.

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Speaker 2: Right, But in the case of like Bigfoot or aliens,

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Speaker 2: I feel like, once you see one, then that's one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent confidence that they exist, right. I think maybe

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Speaker 2: Nick is asking more about the scenario where we don't

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Speaker 2: see one. So if we see an alien, then for

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Speaker 2: sure we know for one hundred percent with confidence that

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Speaker 2: they exist. But if we never see one, at what point,

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Speaker 2: I think is next question? Do you say, well, I

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Speaker 2: guess they don't exist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree in spirit with what you're saying. I

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Speaker 1: just want to put an asterisk there, because even if

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Speaker 1: you see an alien, you never know one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: You could be being fooled or whatever. No knowledge really

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Speaker 1: is one hundred percent definitive. But in practice we call

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Speaker 1: that definitive. There are a case in the past where

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Speaker 1: we found things were like, there's no way that this

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Speaker 1: could have been faked, and then we you know, we're

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Speaker 1: pretty sure dinosaurs are real. For example, nobody takes seriously

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Speaker 1: the scenario that dinosaurs are all fake.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Or like a whale, like we know, if we'll

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent turnty that whales exist and that whales

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Speaker 2: are a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right. I mean technically again, like there's always an

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Speaker 1: asterisk there. You never know anything one hundred percent. But

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Speaker 1: practically speaking, the probability being fooled they're so small we

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Speaker 1: basically call it zero. Yes, you're right, but you're right.

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Speaker 1: Nick is focused also on the other scenario. What can

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Speaker 1: we learn from not discovering aliens? Is there some point

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Speaker 1: at which and so we can make statistical statements like

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Speaker 1: we know, if the universe was filled with aliens and

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Speaker 1: that were very loud in electromagnetism and travel with stars

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Speaker 1: very enthusiastically, we would have seen them already. And so

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Speaker 1: by not having seen them, we can say, well, if

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Speaker 1: those aliens exist, they must be rare, and we can

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Speaker 1: say how rare they have to be for us to

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Speaker 1: not see them, So we can make negative statistical statements

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Speaker 1: about aliens.

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Speaker 2: Or not about aliens, but about scenarios for aliens. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you're not saying aliens don't exist. You're just saying aliens

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Speaker 2: they watch a lot of TV, broad SEV and have

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Speaker 2: spaceships that figure out inner Citi travel. Those are maybe

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Speaker 2: less likely, although those could still exist, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: they don't like to travel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can imagine a scenario and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: what are the chances that if that scenario is real,

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't have seen aliens? And so if you imagine

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Speaker 1: a scenario where aliens are visiting Earth all the time,

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Speaker 1: it's very unlikely that we don't see them, And so

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Speaker 1: if we haven't seen them, you can mostly rule that

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Speaker 1: scenario out. But there are always other scenarios like maybe

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Speaker 1: they can't travel, maybe they're weirder than we imagine, maybe

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Speaker 1: they don't care to travel, they don't want to contact us,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they all died a billion years ago, or

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Speaker 1: they're hiding, or there's always some scenario in which aliens

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Speaker 1: could exist and we haven't seen them.

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Speaker 2: So basically, if you haven't seen them, there's nothing you

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Speaker 2: can say about aliens, because I feel like there's so

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Speaker 2: many ifs and possibilities that you're really just starting to,

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Speaker 2: you know, make statements based on subjetions that you know,

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Speaker 2: you really don't have any information about.

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Speaker 1: I think the kind of stuff you can say if

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Speaker 1: you don't meet aliens is pretty weak, but not exactly

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Speaker 1: nothing like aliens that desperately want to come to Earth

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Speaker 1: and have the capabilities to do so, those aliens don't exist,

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Speaker 1: Like if they existed, they would be here. So we

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Speaker 1: can rule out some scenarios, but the space of possible

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Speaker 1: scenarios that we can't rule out is infinite, and it's

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Speaker 1: much much bigger than the things we can rule out.

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Speaker 1: So like, what fraction of the scenarios have we ruled

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Speaker 1: out by not discovering aliens? Basically zero. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean there are no scenarios we've ruled out. We've learned

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Speaker 1: a little bit by not having met aliens. I see.

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Speaker 2: I think what you're saying is that we can sort

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Speaker 2: of paint, you know, very subtle shades of rarity about

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Speaker 2: the idea or the question of whether aliens exist. But again,

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Speaker 2: these are just kind of like shades of statements that

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Speaker 2: are you know, based on assumptions, and really nobody knows.

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Speaker 1: Really nobody knows, but you can learn something like, for example,

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Speaker 1: in our book, we go into some of these scenarios.

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Speaker 1: Imagine there's a civilization out there in the galaxy that

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Speaker 1: builds self replicating robot robots that go off into space

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Speaker 1: and find moons and mine them and make more of them.

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Speaker 1: So you can exponential number of these robots because each

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Speaker 1: one makes two more, which makes two more, which makes

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Speaker 1: two more. And you can ask, like, how long does

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Speaker 1: it take before that civilization sends a robot to every

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Speaker 1: single planet in the galaxy. The answer is like tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of years. So if the galaxy is billions

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Speaker 1: of years old, if that civilization exists, or at least

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Speaker 1: one of them, then Earth should have some of those

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Speaker 1: robots visiting us. So that hasn't happened, for example, we're

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Speaker 1: pretty sure, and so we can say, like, that scenario

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Speaker 1: is mostly ruled out. So there are interesting scenarios that

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Speaker 1: we can mostly rule out. Though you're right, we're always

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Speaker 1: making statistical statements and there's lots of stuff we can't

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Speaker 1: rule out.

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Speaker 2: Right, and at some point I feel like you're basically

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Speaker 2: making invaluable unvaluable statements, Like at some point you're basically saying, well,

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Speaker 2: if we haven't seen Superman yet, that means that there

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Speaker 2: isn't an alien race out there, and that grew up

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Speaker 2: in around the Red Sun that was about to explode,

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Speaker 2: and then their parents send at this kid out in

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Speaker 2: a space and on Earth. That's something we can say

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Speaker 2: about aliens. Yes, because so far we haven't seen Superman yet.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's true. Off the infinite list of possible scenarios,

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Speaker 1: we can cross one off the list. That's progress. It's

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Speaker 1: still infinitely long.

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Speaker 2: No, you can't even cross it out the list.

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Speaker 1: You can paint it with a statistical rarity, right, you

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Speaker 1: can say that's much.

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Speaker 2: Less likely, not even that cat right, I mean, it's statistics.

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Speaker 2: So just because you haven't rolled twelve on a die

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you can't, that's right.

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Speaker 1: But if you've rolled the die a lot of times

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Speaker 1: you never see twelve, then you can start to make

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Speaker 1: statements ill possible. It's still possible, ill possible where you

401
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Speaker 1: can make statistical statements, right, It's not true that you

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Speaker 1: can say nothing.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, But I guess you can debate how useful

404
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Speaker 2: statistical statement is it's.

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Speaker 1: Totally unsatisfying, especially in comparison to discovering aliens. Right, but

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Speaker 1: it's probably made progress. Right. It also gives us inspiration,

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Speaker 1: like if we can think carefully about the kind of

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Speaker 1: categories we have been able to see, it makes us

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Speaker 1: aware of our blind spots, like, oh, well, actually, it

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Speaker 1: turns out we've only been looking for people that broadcast

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Speaker 1: in electromagnetism. Let's look for messages in neutrinos or in

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Speaker 1: gravitational waves. Right. Inspires us to think outside the box

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Speaker 1: a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: Mmmmm, let me see, helps you maybe narrow the search

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Speaker 2: of how you're looking for aliens?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, actually broaden the search, right, consider other ways we

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Speaker 1: might be contacted.

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Speaker 2: All right, what would you say? Is the answer for

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Speaker 2: Nick here?

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Speaker 1: I would say we never make that determination.

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Speaker 2: Superman does not exist.

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Speaker 1: I would take an even bet against Superman existing for sure, Yes,

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Speaker 1: but we can never prove that we're totally alone in

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Speaker 1: the universe.

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Speaker 2: All Right. I wonder if that's comforting or not. Would

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Speaker 2: you want to know you're the only species in the

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Speaker 2: universe or would we feel better knowing there are other

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Speaker 2: aliens out there?

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Speaker 1: It's sort of frustrating because it's one of these questions

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Speaker 1: where either answer yes, we're alone in the universe, so

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Speaker 1: we're super rare and special, or no, we're not alone

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Speaker 1: in the universe, so there's other intelligent life out there.

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Speaker 1: Either answer is amazing and mind blowing. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of frustrating if the answer we get instead is hm hm.

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Speaker 1: Maybe here's some statistics.

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Speaker 2: Here are some statistics based on some guesses, based on

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Speaker 2: some comic books and sci fi novels that Daniel has read.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's absolutely less satisfying than a definitive answer yes

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00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: or no. So that's pretty frustrating. I feel you, Nick,

440
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: I feel you.

441
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: All right, Well, it sounds like there is no point

442
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 2: at which we can make that determination, but at some

443
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: point you kind of have to get suspicious about whether

444
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 2: or not they do exist out there. Yeah, all right, Well,

445
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: Nick is definitely not alone in having questions about the universe.

446
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 2: Other people have questions and they have sent it to us,

447
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: and we are going to answer them here on the program.

448
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 2: So when we come back, we'll tackle two more questions

449
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 2: about electromagnating charges and about destroying the moon. But first

450
00:20:46,440 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: let's take a quick break. All right, we're answering listener

451
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: questions here today, and our next question comes from column.

452
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 5: Hey, I'm Callum and I wanted to know why specifically

453
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 5: do positive and negative charges attract to each other? As

454
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 5: well as why do you to negative charges and to

455
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 5: positive charges repel from each other? How exactly does that work?

456
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: Thank you? All right? Awesome question from column here. It

457
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 2: sort of gets into the very idea of what is

458
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 2: the nature of forces and electromagnetic forces and charges? Right?

459
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, really fun, really deep, kind

460
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: of philosophical And it came to me actually originally from

461
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: column's physics teacher. He said he got this question in class,

462
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 1: wasn't sure how to answer it. Could I help him out?

463
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: And so I thought, hey, let's talk about it, and

464
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: he agreed to play our answer in class. So HI,

465
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: call him and everybody in your class.

466
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, hello, I hope you're not disappointed.

467
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 1: Let's give him the answer first and then we'll see it.

468
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: Do you think this is more or less exciting than

469
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 2: the lecture that teacher normally would have done?

470
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: Oh? I'm pretty sure Colin's teacher is a fabulous lecture

471
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: in addition to being good looking.

472
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 2: Yes. Best Teacher of the Year Award multiple years going,

473
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: or at least they will.

474
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: Yes, and probably hilarious too, right.

475
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, all teachers should play our podcast on her classroom.

476
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: But thank you to all the high school science teachers

477
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 1: out there for your service on the front lines of education.

478
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And for all of you students out there,

479
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: if you give us a five star rating on Apple

480
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: Podcasts or any of those platforms, you automatically get an

481
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 2: A in this class. Wow.

482
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, or hey, does not have the authority to promise that,

483
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: but go ahead give us a five star rating.

484
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, we never tell the lies here in

485
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 2: this podcast.

486
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's statistically possible that you could get an

487
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: A from giving us a five star rating that we

488
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 1: can't say definitively.

489
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness. Now I feel really

490
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 2: alone and make a nice statement.

491
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: Better statistics than lies.

492
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 2: Right, all right, weants to get to Colum's question. Colin

493
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: wanted to know why do plus and minus charges attract

494
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: and why do two charges with the same polarity repel? Like,

495
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: how does that work? Why is it so binary? I guess?

496
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: And what makes one combination attract and the other one repel?

497
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really fun question. Because it gets to

498
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: the nature of like what is charge? What do we

499
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: really know about it? And it also gets to the

500
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: question of like, well, why does electromagnetism attract with opposite

501
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: charges and why do other forces not? You know, for example,

502
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: an electromagnetism, two positive charges repel, but in gravity, two

503
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: positive masses attract each other. So there's lots of different

504
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: directions to go in with this question.

505
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: Right, because you have the idea that a charge's like

506
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: just a property of particles, right, They're like little labels

507
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: that you attached to things to stuff out there, like

508
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 2: electromagnetic charge or like mass, or like maybe some of

509
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: the other charge forces.

510
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely a valid way of thinking about it,

511
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: and that's the way we teach it. But I think

512
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: there's a layer we need to pull apart there so

513
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: we clear on which part of it is actually something

514
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: we observe and which part of it is sort of

515
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: an explanation we've concocted to explain what we've observed, because

516
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: in the end, charge is a tool we use to

517
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: explain attraction and repulsion. That's what we see out there,

518
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: see a bunch of particles, some of them push against

519
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: each other. Some of them attract each other. And what

520
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: we've noticed is if you put these labels on the particles,

521
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: call some of them plus and some of them minus,

522
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: and you come up with this explanation like charges attract

523
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: and opposite charges repel, then it works. It's consistent. It

524
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: explains all the attraction and repulsion that we see. So

525
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: it's not like we discovered charge. What we discovered is

526
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: some particles push and pull, and we came up with

527
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: charge as a way to explain that.

528
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: You're saying, like the idea of a charge is really

529
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: just it's a definition thing. A charge is maybe not

530
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: something fundamental to the universe. It's just something we came

531
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: up with to explain what we see. Yeah, that's the

532
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: philosophical side of it. We don't know if this really

533
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 2: is a property u or just part of the story

534
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: that we tell. But what we definitely see, what we

535
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: observe is the pushing and the pulling, and we use

536
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: charges to explain that. I think there's another important wrinkle

537
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: there in something you just said, which is these are

538
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: a property of the particles. It's actually really fascinating because

539
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: it's a property actually of a pair of particles, like

540
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: what does a particle do if it has charge and

541
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: it's all alone in the universe.

542
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't push or pull. It doesn't get pushed,

543
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't get pulled. Right, It's only when you put

544
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: another charge there do they push or pull on each other.

545
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: So it's sort of like velocity, where velocity is relative.

546
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: You know, you can only measure a velocity of an

547
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: object relative to something else. Velocity is not the property

548
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: of an object. Even though we describe particles as having charge,

549
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: it's only really meaningful relative to another particle. So it's

550
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: more like the property of a pair of particles. Here's

551
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: two that have the same charge, here's two that have

552
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: opposite charge, And we've come up with a consistent explanation

553
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: to describe all of that, and so we think that's

554
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: probably what's going on, But you know, we don't really know.

555
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: So you're saying that as scientists, we've been studying things

556
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: out there in the universe, and sometimes we notice that

557
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: when you have these little things particles, sometimes they repel

558
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: each other and sometimes they attract each other. And we've

559
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 2: come up with this scenario where when they attract each other,

560
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: it must be because they have opposite of something, and

561
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: when they repel each other's when they have the same

562
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: of something. Yeah, and we call that a charge.

563
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

564
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 2: So to ask like, why does that happen, the answer

565
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: is like, basically because it does.

566
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: Well, the answer is we see it happen, and we

567
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: can tell a story about the mechanism behind it. Right,

568
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: we have this idea that each particle that has a

569
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: charge creates a field, and that field has a force

570
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: on other particles, and so we can describe it, we

571
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: can accommodate it. But we're doing much better than just

572
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: saying this is what happens in the universe. We're not

573
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: just describing everything we see. We're really explaining it. And

574
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: you can tell the difference between describing and explaining because

575
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: explanations are simpler, not just a list of everything you've seen.

576
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: They're more compact, they're more economical. So specifically, if you

577
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: have like ten particles you want to understand, there's like

578
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: fifty different unique pairs of those particles. So a totally

579
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: descriptive theory, one that just lists what happens between every

580
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: particles would have like fifty pieces of information wouldn't simplify

581
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: anything at all. The idea of electric charge is really

582
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: an explanation because by putting a plus or a minus

583
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: on every particle, that's just ten pieces of information one

584
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: per particle. Then the result for any pair of particle

585
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: is determined by the relative charges. So it's not just

586
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: a description of what happens. It's a clever, compact, economical explanation,

587
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: and that's good physics. The rest is turkey philosophy. Right,

588
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: Why does the universe work this way and not some

589
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: other way? That's a deeper philosophical question. We can also

590
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: talk about why in electromagnetism like charges repel whereas in gravity,

591
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: like charges attract. That is something we do understand.

592
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like basically you're saying that the

593
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: answer is because it does, Like why is it that way?

594
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: Because that's what we observe. But I wonder if maybe

595
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: Colin is asking more, like, you know, in our knowledge

596
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: and our models of quantum mechanics and particle and quantum fields,

597
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: like what is the basis of a charge in that scenario?

598
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: And what's the mechanism by which having a positive or

599
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 2: negative of that charge makes you attract or repel another particle?

600
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the story is fascinating and compelling. The way

601
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: we talk about it is that particles have these fields

602
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: around them. So electron creates an electric field, right, and

603
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: it depends on the charge. A proton has a different

604
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: field than an electron, and that field can vary, you know,

605
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: it can be like stronger here and weaker there, and

606
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: that variation is crucial if the field is slanty. If

607
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: it's like stronger in one place and weaker in another place,

608
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: it will create a force on other charged particles. So

609
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: the slantiness of the field is where that force comes from.

610
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: Just like if you put a ball down on the ground,

611
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: If the ground is leveled, the ball's not going to

612
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: roll anywhere. But you put a ball down on a hill,

613
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: it's going to roll downhill. In exactly the same way.

614
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: You put a charged particle in space where the field

615
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: has a gradient where it varies it's stronger in one

616
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: place weaker somewhere else. It's going to feel a force

617
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: pushing it to where the field is weaker, depending on

618
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: its charge.

619
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like you're saying again just more like

620
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: it is because it is. But I wonder if you

621
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: can say something about in your math formulations of quantum

622
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: mechanics for quantum particles. How do you account for a charge?

623
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: Is it just like a little number you append to

624
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: a particle or to like a viiable that you call

625
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: a particle? And then how does it come up that

626
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: if you have the same as sign or plus or minus,

627
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: then you repel? And how does it come up that

628
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: you attractive? We have different signs?

629
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Yes, so equonom mechanics. We have these labels that we

630
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: assigned to particles. And I think maybe what you're looking for,

631
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: and what column is asking, is like, where do these

632
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: labels come from? What really is charge? Sure, they seem

633
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: to work and they're compact, and we can use them

634
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: to predict the forces on particles, But do we understand

635
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: where the charge itself comes from? The answer is no.

636
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: And here's where we get a bit philosophical, because you

637
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: have to think carefully about the kind of answer you're

638
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: looking for when you ask this question. Take a step back,

639
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: for example, and ask a similar question, why does a

640
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: proton have charge plus one? Where does that come from? Well,

641
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: we know the answer, it comes from the bits. The

642
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: proton is made out of the quarks, So back to

643
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: the electron or for the quarks. Also, what's the answer there? Well,

644
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: we don't know because we don't know what the electron

645
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: is made out of, or if it's made out of

646
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: anything but just the electron. So for bigger stuff that's

647
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: made of smaller stuff, we can answer this question. We

648
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: can explain it in terms of that smaller stuff. For

649
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: the smallest stuff, we can't. It's just how the universe is,

650
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: and that will be also true when we eventually find

651
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: out what's at the foundation of the universe. It's the smallest,

652
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: most basic bit of matter, we'll look at it and say,

653
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: why is it the way that it is, And if

654
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: it really is the foundation of the universe, we'll have

655
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: no answer because we can't explain it in terms of

656
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: its bits, because it doesn't have any internal bits. So

657
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: that's the philosophical answer. We don't yet know what's inside

658
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: the electron, if anything, so we don't really have any

659
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: insight into why it has charge. But zoom back out

660
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: from that philosophy and you can still learn things about

661
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: forces and fields and charges if you start from the

662
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: charge in the field it makes. That tells you something

663
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: about the forces. We act as if the charge is

664
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: a property of the particle, and then it creates these

665
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: fields and those fields push or pull on the other particles.

666
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: But the nature of the field, whether it's electromagnetism or gravity,

667
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: determines whether like charges attract or like charges repel. And

668
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: that gets a little bit mathematical. It's like the structure

669
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: of the field. Is it a vector field, is it

670
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: just a scaler? Like is there a number or is

671
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: there a direction to the field that determines the kind

672
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: of particle that transmits the information. So an electromagnetism, we

673
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: have the photon, right, the photon is a complicated particle.

674
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: It has spin, whereas the Higgs field, for example, has

675
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson, which doesn't have any spin. And it

676
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: turns out it's the spin of that particle that's communicating

677
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: the information that determines whether like charges attract or like

678
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: charges repel.

679
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, what do you mean, Like, what's the connection

680
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: between the spin of something and it's charge. And are

681
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: you talking to actually about like particle spinning or are

682
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: you talking about some thing we call spin.

683
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: Well, when we're talking about particles, they don't actually spin.

684
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: They just have this thing we call quantum spin, right,

685
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: And so some particles don't have any of it. We

686
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: call them spin zero, Some particles have spin one, some

687
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: particles have spin a half. All of the particles that

688
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: transmit forces like electromagnetism have unit spin spin zero, spin one,

689
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: spin two. So the photon, for example, is a spin

690
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: one particle, and that comes out of the knee sure

691
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: of the electromagnetic field. Like when you make photoons, which

692
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: are ripples in this electromagnetic field, you make these particles

693
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: that can have spin, and that's because the electromagnetic field

694
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: has vectors that can like point in different directions, whereas

695
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: the Higgs field is just a number, and so the

696
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: ripples you make in it don't have any spin. And

697
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: then the spin of these particles that transmits the forces

698
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: determines whether like charges attract or repel. So electromagnetism, because

699
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: it has a photon, a spin one particle, that's what

700
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: makes like charges repel.

701
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: Why is it? What's the connection there? Why does the

702
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: photon having spin one make like charges repel.

703
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to do with how we construct the

704
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: mathematics of the quantum field theory. Basically, you get a

705
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: negative sign every time you go up in spin, so

706
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: spin zero, like charges attract. You add spin to spin one,

707
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: you get a negative sign. You add another spin to

708
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: spin two, like the graviton, then like charges attract again.

709
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: So it comes out of the statistics of quantum field theory,

710
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: which I think is a little too hairy to get into.

711
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: So wait, are you saying that potons have spin?

712
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Photons have spin? Absolutely, Photons can be polarized, right that

713
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: whole episode about polarization of photons. They can spin this way,

714
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: they can spin that way.

715
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: And so when when you say spin one or spin zero,

716
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: what does that icually mean, like the number of dimension

717
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: or are we just creating categories to explain why something's

718
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: attract and repel.

719
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: Well, spin zero means just just a number, doesn't have

720
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: any spin. Spin one means it's a vector. It points

721
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: in some direction. It can also point in the other direction.

722
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: Spin two is for really complicated particles like gravitons. They're tensors.

723
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: They're more like not a vector, they're more like a matrix,

724
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: really complicated. So they can have more values of spin.

725
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: A particle that's called quote unquote spin one can have

726
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: zero plus one or minus one spin particle that's quote

727
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: unquote spin two can have plus two plus one, zero

728
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: minus one minus two. So as the structure the field

729
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: itself gets more complicated, the nature of the particle is

730
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: more complicated, and then that changes the kind of interaction

731
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: that it mediates.

732
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: I see. So I feel like maybe you're saying that

733
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: the answer for our high school audience here is that

734
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: it's sort of related to the dimensionality of the forces

735
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: that we're talking about. Like if the force that we're

736
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: talking about has a certain number of dimensions, then like

737
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: charges are going to repel. If it has a different

738
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: set of dimensions, then like charges are going to attract.

739
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: And it's almost like it sort of goes by the

740
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: odd or evenness of the number of dimensions.

741
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, And you know the explanation we game earlier,

742
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: like well, this is just sort of what we see,

743
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just descriptive. Like we put together

744
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: as simple as possible an explanation for all the pushing

745
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: and pulling that we've seen, and it works together kind

746
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: of beautifully. It's really compact, it's simple, it tells a

747
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: really compelling story, and there's some restrictions to it, Like

748
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: you can't just build any quantum field theory you want.

749
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: They don't all work. These are the ones that work,

750
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: and that do explain what we see. So in that sense,

751
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: maybe we are revealing something that's true about the universe.

752
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: This is what's actually happening behind the scenes. Maybe charge

753
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: is real and it's part of these particles. We'll never

754
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: really know, of course, any more than we know if

755
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: there's aliens out there or Bigfoot exists. But it's very

756
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: compelling story we're telling about how it works.

757
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's sort of based on the math. If

758
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: the dimensionality, how many dimensions the force has, then like

759
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: charges repel. If it's even, then the like charges attract.

760
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: That's kind of a fundamental thing about the universe, right, Yeah.

761
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: Does it ties math to what we see and experience

762
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: in our everyday lives.

763
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That's what I was trying to say earlier,

764
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 1: is that there's only a few ways to build these theories.

765
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: It's not like you can just build any theory you like,

766
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: so you have an infinite number of possible explanations. There's

767
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: a lot of constraints on making these theories work, so

768
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: they don't break down, they don't make nonsense predictions. They

769
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: also agree with everything we've seen, and so what we've

770
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: seen is that the universe really constrains us. There are

771
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: rules for how you can build these theories mathematically, and

772
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,959
Speaker 1: that's why seeing something work in the mathematics, it's often

773
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: a really big hint that it might reflect something in

774
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: the universe. And so that's why we hope that by

775
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: exploring the mathematics of these theories, were actually investigating what's

776
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes in the universe.

777
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So then the answer for Column and

778
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: Column's class and for everyone out there is that like

779
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: charges repel in electromagnetism because of the number of dimensions

780
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: that the electromagnetic forces seem to operate in. If the

781
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: electromagnetic force is operated in a different set of dimensions

782
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: or number of dimensions, then like charges would do the opposite.

783
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 2: They would attract each other.

784
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: Exactly like they do with the Higgs field and like

785
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: they do with gravity.

786
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, everyone gets an a.

787
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: Extra credit on the house all around.

788
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: Well, if you sat through that whole explanation and that discussion,

789
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: I think everyone deserves an a what do you.

790
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: Think at least a frozen banana?

791
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and a frozen banana. Okay, all right, Well,

792
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 2: thank you Colum, and thank you Colm's teacher. For bringing

793
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: this up. It's creating. You know, there are high schoolers

794
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: out there that are curious about these things, and they're

795
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: drilling to the nuances and having questions about very basic things.

796
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: M hmm. And it also shows you how easy and

797
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: common it is to ask simple questions that have tricky answers.

798
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: We don't really know the answers to. Now, this is

799
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: a pretty basic question, and the answers are a little

800
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: bit slippery and philosophical and mathematical. So you're right there

801
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: at the edge of our knowledge and our understanding.

802
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: All right, well, let's get to our last question of today,

803
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: and this one is pretty dramatic and pretty intense. It's

804
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: about destroying the moon, maybe to save humankind. So let's

805
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: dig into that question. But first, let's take another quick break.

806
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,919
Speaker 2: All right, we're answering questions from listeners, or at least

807
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: the question is that Daniel feels like answering.

808
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: I answer all the questions, I just elevate some of

809
00:38:58,560 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: them to the podcast.

810
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: Oh oh, this is elevating the questions. Interesting, I thought

811
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: it was lowering them.

812
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: You're thinking your contribution to these is lowering our answers

813
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: to them.

814
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: Possibly, Yeah, we're covering it with Hersey's chocolate. But our

815
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: last question here comes from Kim from Toronto.

816
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: Hi, Daniel and Jorge, This is Kim from Toronto in Canada.

817
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 3: I know how much you enjoy answering ethics and physics

818
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 3: questions from aspiring evil villains.

819
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: So I have a question for the two of you.

820
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 3: If climate change is melting the ice caps and forcing

821
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 3: sea levels to rise at the equator, could this effect

822
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: be offset at the equator by destroying the Moon safely

823
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: of course, so nobody gets hurt. And since more of

824
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 3: the Earth's population is closer to the equator than the poles,

825
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: would this potentially save the lives of those who are

826
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: currently living in zones which would flood if the sea

827
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: levels rise. And a question for Jorge, if I were

828
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: to single handedly destroy the Moon in order to save

829
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: millions of lives, would this make me a hero or

830
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: a villain?

831
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: All Right, a bit of question here from Kim. I'm

832
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: not even sure what to make of this question or

833
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: what it even means, Like, how do you tie destroying

834
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: the moon to saving the planet.

835
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: Well, I do like the creativity here, Like we're facing

836
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: some issues people, let's think about out of the box solutions.

837
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: Right, that's right. We have the problem of climate change. Obviously,

838
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 2: the easiest thing is to destroy the moon.

839
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the easiest thing or even

840
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: on the top ten easiest solutions to climate change, but

841
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting to think about.

842
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: Okay. So, I think what Kim is thinking here is

843
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: that climate change is a thing, and one of the

844
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: consequences of climate change are rising sea levels, which is

845
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: a problem. Maybe not if you're a Montana or in Siberia,

846
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: but if you're in a coastal city then it's sort

847
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: of a problem. And if the sea levels rise, and

848
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 2: it's going to cost a lot of chaos and instability

849
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: for billions of people, which is better news for everybody.

850
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: And so I think Kim is thinking, like, oh, rising

851
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: sea levels, that sounds like something related to tides, and

852
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 2: tides are related to the moon. Why if we destroy

853
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 2: the moon, well, that solve the consequences of climate change, right,

854
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: I think that's what Kim is trying to propose here.

855
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the idea or the hope is that

856
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: you could mitigate the impact of rising sea levels by

857
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: minimizing the tides. Like, yeah, maybe the ocean is going up.

858
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: But the worst part is when you're the ocean goes

859
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: up and you have high tides. If your tides aren't

860
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: as high, or if you can remove the tides, then

861
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: the ocean doesn't rise as much. And so you're somehow

862
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: mitigating the rise in sea levels by preventing these swings

863
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: in the ocean depth.

864
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: Right, right, because I imagine that Kim has figured out

865
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: that if you remove the moon, that doesn't mean that

866
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: the sea levels go down. It just means that they

867
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: don't go up and down.

868
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. They don't go up and down,

869
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: and so they're not as high, right, I think that's

870
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: the point.

871
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: The highs are not as high and the lows are

872
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: not as well. So you eliminate the variation of the tides,

873
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: which helps. It doesn't solve the rising sea levels because

874
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: the average sea level will surprise, that's right, Maybe the

875
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: high tide will be as bad as it would be

876
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: if you had the move.

877
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: Exactly And this relies on the sort of a simple

878
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: model of the tides, where the moon is pulling on

879
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: the water and making it deeper here and narrower there,

880
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: and so it's making higher tides and lower tides, And

881
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: it's true that the tides can be very large and

882
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: quite variable. You know, in some places around the world

883
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: the tides can be like, you know, more than ten meters,

884
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: So it can definitely be very dramatic.

885
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: Well you mean like in some places it can go

886
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: up and down ten meters.

887
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, tides could be very very dramatic.

888
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 2: Where is it? Ten meters is a lot thirty feet?

889
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: It is? I looked at a map of the tidal

890
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: variations and it's sort of surprising. It's not focused on

891
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: the equators. You know, there's like the inlet under Alaska

892
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: is very dramatic. Actually, the waters just to the west

893
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: of Central America have some of the strongest tides. Up

894
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: near the coast of Europe has very strong tides. It

895
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: doesn't just vary on latitude. Tides in the end are

896
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: influenced by the moon, but there's lots of other important factors,

897
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: like the shape of the coast and the depth of

898
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: the water, how the water likes to slash around, the

899
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: temperature of the water. Lots of things affect the amplitude

900
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: of the tides.

901
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 2: So then what does that mean? Does that mean that

902
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 2: if you eliminated the moon, you would still get tides.

903
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: That's also true because the Sun contributes like a third

904
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: of the tidal forces. So if you eliminated the moons,

905
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: you would reduce the tides, though it wouldn't be concentrated

906
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: necessarily at the equator. But if you liminated the moon,

907
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: you would still have tides because the Sun also causes

908
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 1: tides and a slightly different pattern of course than the moon,

909
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't get rid of them by destroying the moon.

910
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember we had a whole episode about ties

911
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: and it was kind of complicated.

912
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: It's very complicated. People have been trying to understand this

913
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: for a long time, and Newton had the first model

914
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: based on, you know, gravity pulling on the water, but

915
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: that's just one part of it. That's just like the input,

916
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: that's how much gravity is pushing on the water. You

917
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: also have to understand how the water responds. Like if

918
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: you sit in your bathtub and you push on the

919
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: water to make a wave, you make a wave. The

920
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: water doesn't just bend under your hand and stay there.

921
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: So you have to understand the water's response, all the

922
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: wave equations to really understand how the tides are formed.

923
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: It's very, very complicated these days. We have a really

924
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: solid understanding of it, though, which is why you can

925
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: look up the tides anywhere on Earth pretty far in

926
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: the future and get a pretty good prediction of it.

927
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: Right, right, although I hear the accuracy of that kind

928
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: of goes up and down. Then when you look or

929
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: where the moon is. I think what you're saying is

930
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: that Kim's plan would work sort of like if you

931
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: took out the moon, you wouldn't totally eliminate the tides,

932
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: but you would maybe eliminate two thirds of the tide,

933
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: which is sort of Kim's plant.

934
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: You would eliminate two thirds of the tides, but it

935
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the most impact in the coastal areas. It

936
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: would have the most impact other places on Earth, which

937
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: is still helpful. Right, everybody would benefit from having lower

938
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: ocean levels or lower highs.

939
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: I suppose Wait, what do you mean it wouldn't affect

940
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: the equator. You're saying, but tides affect the coastal areas, right.

941
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: Tide affects the coastal areas. But where around the world

942
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: those tides are most dramatic is not in the equator?

943
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: Depends on the shape of the continents and all sorts

944
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: of stuff. If you google like a tide map, you'll

945
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: see these red hotspots where the tides are most dramatic,

946
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 1: and they are not along the equator. So if he's

947
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: looking to focus his efforts and help people along the equator,

948
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: tides are not the way to do it.

949
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure Kim actually is that concern about

950
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: people in the equator, and specifically, I think he's just

951
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: concerned about the overall consequences of climate change. And you're

952
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: saying it wouldn't be focused on the equator, It would

953
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: sort of spread out all over in weird places. But

954
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 2: if you did eliminate the moon, it would lower the

955
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: ups and downs of the tide.

956
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would. It wouldn't reduce the tides, But of

957
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: course you're also contributing lots of other potential knock on

958
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: problems from getting rid of the moon, which does much

959
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: more than just provide tides.

960
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: What do you mean, like, what other effects would removing

961
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: the moon have?

962
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Well, the moon is crucial for lots of ecosystems. You know,

963
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: provides light at certain times of night at certain parts

964
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: of the month. Predators rely on the moon for hunting

965
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: at night. There's a lot of biological things that are

966
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: linked to the moon. You know, a lot of our

967
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: cycles are linked to the Moon for lots of reasons.

968
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: So you get rid of the Moon, it could have

969
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: difficult to predict impact on ecosystems.

970
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 4: Mmmm.

971
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: I think my question is how would you even destroy

972
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 2: the moon?

973
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: That's the engineering you man.

974
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: Let's say you like obliterated. It wouldn't all those rocks

975
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: fall on Earth and kills all of which I make

976
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: climate change a small problem.

977
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, you'd have to do this safely. I've actually

978
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: read that novel Seven Eves where their moon is destroyed

979
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: and rains down rocks on the Earth. Super interesting. You know,

980
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: instead of destroying the Moon, you can just like push

981
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: it out into space. You don't actually have to destroy it.

982
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 2: Oh whoa, whoa. Interesting, Like just attach some rockets into

983
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: it and have it just beIN out of control and

984
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 2: shoot off Earth. Yeah, exactly what kind of energy would

985
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: that take?

986
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: A lot of energy if you want to do it quickly,

987
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: if you want to do it gradually and you're happy

988
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: to wait millions of years, then you know, low rocket

989
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: thrust could do it. In fact, we're already losing the

990
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: moon right, it gets further and further away from us

991
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: by like a centimeter per year. So Kim could also

992
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: just wait a few million years.

993
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: And that will all be dead from other things. I

994
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 2: wonder if you could take all this co two on Earth, right,

995
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: take it to the moon, build some sort of engine

996
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: with that, and then you solve two problems.

997
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there you go. There's the engineering you But

998
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, you're always creating other problems when you're disturbing

999
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: the system, like the moon does again, even more than

1000
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: like helping predators find prey, it also stabilizes the Earth's spin.

1001
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: The Earth spins off axis right, so it's a little

1002
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: bit unstable. It wobbles a little bit, and they think

1003
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: that the moon helps stabilize that wobble, like absorbs some

1004
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: of that angular momentum. And without a big moon, the

1005
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 1: Earth's axis might tilt more and more until eventually it's

1006
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: tilted all the way over on its side the way

1007
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: Urinus is.

1008
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: WHOA. Well, in that case, maybe will come out with

1009
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: the idea to make a moon to tilt this back.

1010
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: I mean it, Kim seems to have pretty big ideas.

1011
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll solve one problem, create another one. Then solve

1012
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: that one create a bigger problem. I see where this

1013
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: is going.

1014
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well Kim has a second part of

1015
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: the question, which is if Kim manages to destroy the

1016
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: moon and save people's lives, but make them a hero

1017
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: or a villain?

1018
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this question specifically for you?

1019
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder why specifically for me, am I the

1020
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: ultimate judge of people's actions.

1021
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: I think Kim recognized that you have a deeper appreciation

1022
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: of like a comic book superhero lore.

1023
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, I see interesting. Interesting. I guess it

1024
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: depends on several things. Does Kim have a doctorate to

1025
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: be you know, most villains are called doctor something?

1026
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 4: Oh?

1027
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: Interesting?

1028
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: Does Kim wear a cape and a hood? That makes

1029
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: a big difference. Also, yeah, we'll get that to Kim's

1030
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: PR department right away. Well, I think it depends maybe

1031
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 2: on the ultimate effect of Kim's actions. You know, maybe

1032
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: Kim will say millions of lives now, but in the

1033
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 2: long run, make the earth the worst place to live.

1034
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: M interesting, in which case you'd be like a tragic hero.

1035
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: So we're responsible for the unintended consequences of our.

1036
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 2: Actions, I'm saying, and we would all suffer from the

1037
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: unintended consequences of Kim's actions.

1038
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: Well, if this podcast is attracting aliens to Earth and

1039
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: they come and they kill us, all, are we then villains?

1040
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: Only? That was your intent all along.

1041
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: Daniel, I'm going in no comment on that one.

1042
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: Sounds like a yes.

1043
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: No comment to that as well.

1044
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: That's what a super villain would say.

1045
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: Supervillain has a super team of lawyers, and that's what

1046
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: they advise.

1047
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, superheroes don't have lawyers. They're honest and forth right.

1048
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: There you go, Kim, So if you have a lawyer,

1049
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: you're a villain.

1050
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, although Kim has been pretty forthright about their plans,

1051
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: so maybe I'm very confused.

1052
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm very confused ethically here. Yes, I'm hoping for hero

1053
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm pushing for Hero in this one. Yeah.

1054
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: All right, Well we're all cheering for you, Kim and

1055
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: your plan to destroy the moon. Maybe it'd be easier

1056
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: if we just cut carbon dioxide emissions. Yeah, it sounds

1057
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: like a like an easier path here. All right. Well,

1058
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: that's the answer for Kim, and I think that means

1059
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: that we've answered all the questions.

1060
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: Stick, that's right, we have, and we love your questions.

1061
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: We love thinking about them. We love talking about them,

1062
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: we love answering them. If you have questions about how

1063
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: the universe works and you want to hear us talking

1064
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: about them, please write to me two questions at Danieljorge

1065
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: dot com.

1066
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, whichever question you sent in, Daniel will give you

1067
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: an A and a banana covered in chocolate. Yes, digital

1068
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: frozen banana covered in chocolate.

1069
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: Covered in digital chocolate.

1070
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1071
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 2: joining us, See you next time.

1072
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media,

1073
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter,

1074
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: disc work in, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and

1075
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a

1076
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1077
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1078
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: favorite shows.