Speaker 1: If you don't put in the effort to try to
Speaker 1: recognize from where they're coming from and see it from
Speaker 1: their perspective, you may never know and you may continue
Speaker 1: living this life thinking that nobody really cares about me
Speaker 1: because you're not stepping outside of yourself and so in relationship.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to this very special episode of
Speaker 1: On Purpose. Thanks to our partners that Better Help for
Speaker 1: this episode today, I'm joined with Hay Sue Joe, licensed
Speaker 1: therapist and head of clinical operations at Better Help. Hey, everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Purpose. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: back to listen to today's episode. I'm so grateful that
Speaker 1: you trust me. I'm so grateful that you value your
Speaker 1: time here with On Purpose so much, and I want
Speaker 1: you to know that I deeply value each and every
Speaker 1: one of you that make time in your days and
Speaker 1: your weeks to connect here. And as you know, I'm
Speaker 1: always trying to come up with new ideas, creative ways
Speaker 1: of helping you learn about your journey towards happiness, towards healing,
Speaker 1: and towards health. And one of the ways I like
Speaker 1: to do that is I love experiments, I always have,
Speaker 1: and I like doing things myself and putting myself in
Speaker 1: uncomfortable positions. And so one of the series that we
Speaker 1: started off here was me going to therapy and doing
Speaker 1: a therapy session as an episode as a way to
Speaker 1: show you how accessible it is, how simple it is,
Speaker 1: how useful it can be, and also for you to
Speaker 1: get to know me better as well. I really want
Speaker 1: to be able to be more open with you. And
Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm doing a four minute interview on TV,
Speaker 1: or even if I do a podcast episode with someone else,
Speaker 1: the conversation can seem very specific to what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: but not necessarily specific to me. So this is all
Speaker 1: of you who would like to know a bit more
Speaker 1: about me, learn a bit more about me and how
Speaker 1: I ended up the way I did, but also encouraging
Speaker 1: the conversation of how did you get to where you
Speaker 1: are today? What is it about your life that you
Speaker 1: can learn from or grow from and can serve you
Speaker 1: differently if you thought about it differently. So I want
Speaker 1: to give a big thanks to our incredible partners a
Speaker 1: better help for this episode. Our incredible therapist. Hey Sue,
Speaker 1: who's here with me today? Again, You've seen her in
Speaker 1: three episodes before this, and this is our fourth episode
Speaker 1: in this series, so make sure you go back and
Speaker 1: listen to the other three if you haven't already. Hey, Sue,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this again. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: always great to be with you. A And I feel
Speaker 1: like after our first therapy session, I feel it's amazing
Speaker 1: how you build a relationship with someone so quickly because
Speaker 1: you're so vulnerable with someone. How do you use a
Speaker 1: therapist monitor that relationship building? Because almost like as a patient,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, this person's like kind of
Speaker 1: like knows everything about me now, more than what some
Speaker 1: of my friends may know about me. Not my closest friends,
Speaker 1: but some friends and people start feeling close to their
Speaker 1: therapist cause of vulnerability. How what's the professional line and
Speaker 1: how do you maintain that because I can imagine a
Speaker 1: lot of people start trusting you deeply. Man, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you already know, but this is like a
Speaker 1: focal point in the education of therapists and continuing education.
Speaker 1: This thing you're talking about, you know, your your clients
Speaker 1: begin to feel close to your Your clients will also
Speaker 1: love you. Some of your clients will fall in love
Speaker 1: with you. Sometimes you're the first person or one of
Speaker 1: the only people. That gives them the experience of being
Speaker 1: seen without criticism and judgment, which is like very rare
Speaker 1: in today's modern world when we're trying to connect with people.
Speaker 1: So managing this relationship that becomes very intimate is really
Speaker 1: important to protect you, to protect the client. So people
Speaker 1: will hear of things like the Code of Ethics, and
Speaker 1: these exist to protect the public. Right. It's like, therapists
Speaker 1: gain a lot of power in this relationship. I know
Speaker 1: so much about you, but you don't really know anything
Speaker 1: about me, and I could use that with my clients
Speaker 1: to a huge advantage. So that is very dangerous, I think.
Speaker 1: And so these codes of ethics ensure that we are
Speaker 1: protecting our clients. We're managing our feelings about our clients,
Speaker 1: the feelings that our clients develop about us. It has
Speaker 1: a word, it's called transference, and the feelings that I
Speaker 1: develop for you, that's countertransference. And these are things that
Speaker 1: we have to process and things that therapists are encouraged
Speaker 1: to go to therapy for consult with other people throughout
Speaker 1: their practice in order to keep things healthy, in order
Speaker 1: to keep things in line with the goal, which is
Speaker 1: to help you meet your ambitions and your goals. It's
Speaker 1: not about anything to do with what my emotional intentions
Speaker 1: or my ego is, but it is something that we
Speaker 1: are meant to be mindful to manage because there are
Speaker 1: times where when you're not managing it, it turns into
Speaker 1: a very messy situation. And you're like, folks have heard
Speaker 1: of these things. You know, people can lose their license
Speaker 1: because they've take an advantage of a client entered a
Speaker 1: very personal relationship, which is a huge no no. So
Speaker 1: for me, it's like just knowing and understanding your clients
Speaker 1: will develop very strong feelings about and towards you, and
Speaker 1: continuing to be the safe person that's responsible for establishing
Speaker 1: healthy boundaries and making it very clear, like what is
Speaker 1: this relationship that makes a lot of sense? Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. I love that. All right, well, let's dive
Speaker 1: in over to you again. I will hand over my
Speaker 1: host hat to you to get into the zone. So
Speaker 1: that's what I kind of am interested in talking about
Speaker 1: today with you is relationships. So I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're willing to share about that, but can you tell
Speaker 1: me about what being in relationship means to you? And
Speaker 1: like what is important about humans doing that? I think
Speaker 1: having a relationship with anyone is is very sacred. If
Speaker 1: you're both making time, sharing energy. You know, whether it's
Speaker 1: my wife, whether it's one of my best friends, whether
Speaker 1: it's a team member. I think about relationships as an
Speaker 1: exchange of energy, and I want that energy that is
Speaker 1: created and exchange to be positive and healthy for both people.
Speaker 1: I also think about it as a safe space, and
Speaker 1: hence I call it sacred. It's it's a safe space
Speaker 1: that where you feel trusted, where you feel someone wants
Speaker 1: to try to understand, and where you feel that your
Speaker 1: openness will not be used against you or will not
Speaker 1: be taken advantage of. And beyond all of that, there's
Speaker 1: a sense of knowing. And when I say knowing, I
Speaker 1: don't mean someone's a mind reader and they know what
Speaker 1: you're thinking about. It's that as you start to talk
Speaker 1: to that person, you know they know what you mean
Speaker 1: and because they've had so many experiences with you. That's
Speaker 1: how I see relationships today. But I think when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, I think I was so in love
Speaker 1: with the idea of love that I just wanted to
Speaker 1: be in love. And I think a lot of that
Speaker 1: came from just watching too many bad movies. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of my initial ideas on love were based
Speaker 1: on terrible movies that you see as a kid, whether
Speaker 1: it's American Pie, Road Trip, tons of Bollywood movies too,
Speaker 1: that Bollywood movies almost portrayed this really glamorous view of love,
Speaker 1: and I think Hollywood movies at the time portrayed a
Speaker 1: very lusty like view of love, and you kind of
Speaker 1: get caught somewhere in between of like infatuation attraction and
Speaker 1: then this glamorized version of love is where I think
Speaker 1: I ended up. And so to me, I was always
Speaker 1: wanting to be in love without knowing what it was,
Speaker 1: without knowing what it required from the other person. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to give love and be loving and have love.
Speaker 1: And I think that led to a lot of issues
Speaker 1: growing up when I first started dating, because when I
Speaker 1: first started dating, I was around fourteen years old, and
Speaker 1: I was kind of like that person who just went
Speaker 1: above and beyond all the time with anyone, whether I
Speaker 1: just met them or whether I'd known them for a while,
Speaker 1: and that was quite new for I guess the girls
Speaker 1: that I was doing as well. We were all fairly young,
Speaker 1: and so whether we were in our first relationships or
Speaker 1: a second to have someone who was that overly giving
Speaker 1: was quite People appreciated it, people liked it. But I
Speaker 1: realized that I was doing it, and I realized this afterwards.
Speaker 1: I was doing it because I just wanted them to
Speaker 1: like me. It's not that I actually beyond being attracted
Speaker 1: to them, or beyond being infatuated with them, or whatever
Speaker 1: it may have been. I don't think I actually knew
Speaker 1: anything about them, But I liked the idea of someone
Speaker 1: that I felt attracted to liking me and validating me
Speaker 1: and thinking I was a good person, and thinking that
Speaker 1: I was special, and thinking that I was important. When
Speaker 1: your mind is developing, this means your worldview is developing,
Speaker 1: which will later turn into your personal philosophy. So many
Speaker 1: things can impact it. So like, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: this is how people should live their lives, but personally,
Speaker 1: I have witnessed so much and observed how detrimental it
Speaker 1: is to engage in many things as a developing young mind,
Speaker 1: whether that substance cannabis, alcohol, sex, like, these kinds of
Speaker 1: things which are highly emotionally charged, when you don't even
Speaker 1: understand what's happening to you, when your state of mind
Speaker 1: is being altered. It's very difficult to reconcile that as
Speaker 1: an adult. It like totally impacts you and you see
Speaker 1: it now, Like there's so much research that shows kids
Speaker 1: that do these things. I'm not saying it's caused, but
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot more prevalence of mental health
Speaker 1: issues for kids that engage in these things versus kids
Speaker 1: that don't. So what we're hearing is that it's it's
Speaker 1: guaranteed that if you're in relationships in your teens, you're
Speaker 1: going to go through a ton of pain. Either way,
Speaker 1: we're going to make mistakes, Like it's likely that we're
Speaker 1: going to make mistakes, and some of those mistakes become
Speaker 1: really damaging and traumatic long term stay with you for
Speaker 1: I remember that. So my parents never wanted me to
Speaker 1: have a relationship until I was Ideally they would never
Speaker 1: have wanted me to have a relationship until I was married,
Speaker 1: And so I never told my parents when I was dating.
Speaker 1: Like my parents who have no if my parents listened
Speaker 1: to the episode, they have no idea that I've had
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. They probably have some idea now, but like
Speaker 1: they would never have known that I was dating at fourteen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it became so much more attractive to me to
Speaker 1: one a day because my parents didn't want me to day.
Speaker 1: And then obviously in culture, you don't want to be
Speaker 1: a loser again if you don't date. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's hard because I agree with you. I
Speaker 1: think you wouldn't make as much mistakes, you wouldn't learn
Speaker 1: as much. It it's complicated anyway. Parents sometimes they're not
Speaker 1: conscious of why, why they're even setting that role. If
Speaker 1: they could articulate it and if a fourteen year old
Speaker 1: could understand it. It's like we're saying this out of
Speaker 1: the wisdom of knowing that you are still absorbing the
Speaker 1: world and we want you to absorb it in a
Speaker 1: way that's inviting, welcoming, loving something that you can feel
Speaker 1: is safe. But they don't always know how to say that.
Speaker 1: It's just like no dating until you're married. Yeah, so powerful,
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I love that you mentioned that
Speaker 1: there's like a difference in how you view relationships then
Speaker 1: versus now, Like can you tell me this is a
Speaker 1: big question, but can you tell me, like what happened
Speaker 1: to the in between, Like how did you get to
Speaker 1: this place now of how you view relationships? Well, lots
Speaker 1: of failed relationships that lots of heartbreak. What used to
Speaker 1: happen was I would overlove someone. Again I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it was loved, but I would overgive, and when someone
Speaker 1: couldn't keep up with my rate of giving, I would
Speaker 1: walk away. So you're looking for that. I was looking
Speaker 1: for it back, Yeah, exactly. I was like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: loving you, and it's so it was almost like I
Speaker 1: was setting the standard of how much lover I was
Speaker 1: going to give, and then if they didn't match my standard,
Speaker 1: which I had made up anyway, they never even asked
Speaker 1: for it, then I would be upset. And that was
Speaker 1: extremely unhealthy. Now I see that, because you end up
Speaker 1: feeling like the victim and you end up feeling like
Speaker 1: they wronged you, when in fact, you said a false
Speaker 1: standard and hurt that person because that person was feeling
Speaker 1: overly loved by you. And then the next thing you know,
Speaker 1: you walked away and it's all over and they're wondering
Speaker 1: what went wrong there too, And so I think there
Speaker 1: was a lot of failed relationships where and again I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that everyone I did it was perfect and
Speaker 1: that I messed up in that way. There was you know,
Speaker 1: there's obviously there's a lot of mutual responsibility. But I
Speaker 1: think what happened in between was I became a monk.
Speaker 1: Like that's the through line of how much of my
Speaker 1: life where it's like, for three years, I didn't date.
Speaker 1: I didn't I was celibate for three years. You don't
Speaker 1: really interact with women when you're a monk. And I
Speaker 1: think part of the reason why I did that was
Speaker 1: because I've obviously simplified some of my experience of how
Speaker 1: I was. But I also got to a place where
Speaker 1: I couldn't keep a healthy relationship, like I didn't you know,
Speaker 1: a long term relationship. There was something that would go wrong,
Speaker 1: and I was just sick of relationships. I was like,
Speaker 1: this isn't I just don't want to put in this
Speaker 1: work for what reason? Like why am I putting in
Speaker 1: all this work to try and make this thing work
Speaker 1: with very little benefit? And I'd rather go and work
Speaker 1: on myself and help the world or whatever it may
Speaker 1: have been at the time, which we've talked about previously.
Speaker 1: And so I think there was a part of me
Speaker 1: that was just feeling like I don't know how to
Speaker 1: get a relationship right. Yeah, I think what happened in
Speaker 1: between was spending three years on my own allowed me
Speaker 1: to re clarify and reidentify what love was to me.
Speaker 1: Not what love was to my family or in the
Speaker 1: movies or to some of the people i'd met, but
Speaker 1: what was love to me? What kind of relationship did
Speaker 1: I want? And obviously, like living as a monk, even
Speaker 1: though you're not dating, you develop a lot of good
Speaker 1: skills for dating, like patience and commitment and discipline and
Speaker 1: understanding and listening and mindfulness, and so there's so many
Speaker 1: great skills that you gain that then become very useful
Speaker 1: when you start dating. And so then, since I left
Speaker 1: the monastery, the only person I've ever dated is my wife,
Speaker 1: and you know, we're all constantly working on things even today,
Speaker 1: but I definitely feel a lot more stability with her
Speaker 1: than I've felt before, and a lot more commitment and
Speaker 1: love there than I've felt before. And obviously that's a
Speaker 1: lot to do with her as well, that's not just me,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that's what changed it becoming a monk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you mentioned, you know, as a monk. In the
Speaker 1: three years you were a monk, and many people stay
Speaker 1: monks until they leave this earth, right, And I'm understanding
Speaker 1: that you're saying monks don't date monks or cellible, So
Speaker 1: can you refresh my memory why that is? And it's
Speaker 1: not just in one kind of monk, right, you see
Speaker 1: this across cultural differentness. Yeah, so why is that? Can
Speaker 1: you remind me? I mean, there's many different reasons, and
Speaker 1: I can't speak from anyone beyond my tradition obviously, but
Speaker 1: I would say that the number one reason is to
Speaker 1: create a sense of focus and aligned energy. So if
Speaker 1: we all believe that we have a certain amount of energy,
Speaker 1: and the more things we add to that, the more
Speaker 1: it takes away our energy in different directions. Now, being
Speaker 1: celibate or get into a relationship is one of those,
Speaker 1: but it's the same as having a career as a monkey.
Speaker 1: You don't have a job, right, And so it's the
Speaker 1: same reasoning where it's like, well, what if all of
Speaker 1: your energy was placed in self mastery and self realization
Speaker 1: and you didn't use your energy for anything else or
Speaker 1: anyone else or anyone else, would you not have the
Speaker 1: opportunity to go deep into the self. And so it's
Speaker 1: not about women or celibacy or like, it's not about
Speaker 1: the external idea of like some people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: well money is bad and women are bad and that's
Speaker 1: where you stay. And it's like, well, no, it's got
Speaker 1: nothing to do with that. It's not like you don't
Speaker 1: have a job because money is bad, or you don't
Speaker 1: have a partner because you know a certain gender is bad.
Speaker 1: It's the idea that how could you limit all your
Speaker 1: distractions or how could you limit all your focus as
Speaker 1: an energy to the pursuit of self realization and anything
Speaker 1: above the pursuit of self realization is seen as unimportant
Speaker 1: at that stage of life, and I think there's beauty
Speaker 1: in that. I think when I think about getting three
Speaker 1: years of my life to have an exclusive focus on
Speaker 1: self realization, I would say it works. And I would
Speaker 1: think about this often. I'm like, when did people ever
Speaker 1: in their lives have three days for self realization, let
Speaker 1: alone three weeks, three months, or three years? And so
Speaker 1: I think it worked. I think it was true. I
Speaker 1: do believe that carving out exclusive time for yourself and
Speaker 1: self realization is a beautiful commitment to yourself and you
Speaker 1: don't have to go and become a monk to do it.
Speaker 1: I think therapy is one way to do it and
Speaker 1: is a great way to do that. Every week you're
Speaker 1: carving out an hour or two hours for yourself and
Speaker 1: understanding yourself, and so over years that will add up.
Speaker 1: And so I think that the idea of the concept
Speaker 1: you don't have to become a monk to do it,
Speaker 1: but the idea and the concept of investing your energy
Speaker 1: exclusively in self realization is a healthy one. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for t human detour, because you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: clients may have this idea that therapists know everything about
Speaker 1: all kinds of people. So sometimes I may ask you
Speaker 1: to remind me why something is the way it was
Speaker 1: in some peace of your life, because it helps me
Speaker 1: understand you better as I seek to understand you better
Speaker 1: as I accompany you through whatever it is that you're
Speaker 1: trying to explore about yourself. So I really appreciate you
Speaker 1: taking the time to help me understand that. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: And in all of that I'm hearing like becoming a monk,
Speaker 1: which we talked about previously, a large part of it
Speaker 1: was maybe you couldn't articulate it before you became one,
Speaker 1: but after this journey, it was about being able to
Speaker 1: validate yourself. Yes, and it sounds like all your early relationships,
Speaker 1: you're really seeking this validation from someone else. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was validation for because I guess I didn't like myself.
Speaker 1: It was the idea of how do you buy someone's love?
Speaker 1: Is it a fancy gift, is it a posh restaurant,
Speaker 1: is it a is it me overdoing it for their
Speaker 1: birthday when we barely know each other? Like what what
Speaker 1: am I overcompensating for? And I'm overcompensating for the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm not sure I think I'm worthy or I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that I like myself enough, and I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that this will win that person over and then we'll
Speaker 1: have that romantic love in the movies. And that was
Speaker 1: the only way to get through to them was to
Speaker 1: do these grand gestures. I've always been someone who considers
Speaker 1: themselves to be someone and I still to this day
Speaker 1: love grand gestures. And I've married someone who doesn't appreciate
Speaker 1: grand gestures, and it took me ages to understand that.
Speaker 1: And I think my wife, because I do love her
Speaker 1: deeper than that, was one of the few people who's
Speaker 1: been able to teach me that that grand gestures don't
Speaker 1: equal love or are not the only way to show love,
Speaker 1: because she didn't receive them with the glorification and adulation
Speaker 1: of oh, you're amazing. She kind of received them as like, well,
Speaker 1: I didn't really want this, or this is not this
Speaker 1: doesn't really make me happy. And in my head when
Speaker 1: we first started dating, it was like, well, you're weird.
Speaker 1: You know, It's like, how can you not be happy? Look?
Speaker 1: How incredible I am. Only to realize that again it
Speaker 1: was still so even after being among even in our
Speaker 1: early years of dating with me and my wife, I
Speaker 1: still think I was And even till this day, I
Speaker 1: think that is so deep rooted. That idea of love
Speaker 1: is grand gestures. Love is this big thing, the idea
Speaker 1: of overgiving. Like, I think it's so deep rooted. It
Speaker 1: takes a long time to be aware. Let go be conscious.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't just disappear right right, And you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes for some people, love is grand justice. And you're
Speaker 1: kind of touching on something that a lot of people
Speaker 1: would benefit from reminding themselves of. We or I as
Speaker 1: an individual love and express love in a certain way,
Speaker 1: and I feel love and I receive love in a
Speaker 1: certain way. It's pretty unlikely that you will end up
Speaker 1: with someone that speaks love and receives love in the
Speaker 1: exact way that you do. So it's like being in
Speaker 1: this long term relationship. It sounds like you and your
Speaker 1: wife have navigated how can I express my love to
Speaker 1: her in a way that she will receive it, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, well, this is how
Speaker 1: I would like for someone to love me, So if
Speaker 1: I keep doing that to her, she's going to like
Speaker 1: it because I would like it. I think we're learning
Speaker 1: that that is not love. Love is learning to express
Speaker 1: it in the way that your partner receives it. And
Speaker 1: I also realized that for me, the way I like
Speaker 1: to receive love and give love is how my mom
Speaker 1: gave me love. And so my mom would We've talked
Speaker 1: about my mom before. My mom would always save up
Speaker 1: to buy me the one big gift I wanted every
Speaker 1: year for my birthday. And we didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: growing up, so she would save up and she knew
Speaker 1: what I wanted, and she always knew what I wanted.
Speaker 1: I didn't even have to tell her, she just knew.
Speaker 1: And then on my birthday, I unwrapped this gift and
Speaker 1: it would be exactly the thing that I wanted. And
Speaker 1: that had been how I'd been loved. My mom did
Speaker 1: give me time and we did have beautiful experiences, but
Speaker 1: I remember gifts being a big thing in my home.
Speaker 1: And then when I married my wife, it's like, gifts
Speaker 1: are like not important in her home, Like they spent
Speaker 1: quality time with each other and they her dad would
Speaker 1: take the day off on her birthday and they'd go
Speaker 1: out or whatever it may be. And so to me,
Speaker 1: I couldn't get my head around how gifts couldn't be
Speaker 1: important to someone because I was just like, gifts are
Speaker 1: the best thing in the world, like, and it took
Speaker 1: me a long time to also realize and even till
Speaker 1: this day. Like one of the members of my team
Speaker 1: brought me a gift for my birthday. My birthday was
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago, and she found something that
Speaker 1: I didn't need, I didn't want, but it was it
Speaker 1: was like I felt of understanding. I was like, and
Speaker 1: it was a new pair of shoes that were really
Speaker 1: cool and they were this cool collab and they were
Speaker 1: a bit rare, and I was like, this person, like
Speaker 1: this stands me so well, and it was it's a
Speaker 1: long time since I've received a gift that felt that way,
Speaker 1: And it wasn't because of how much it cost. It
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't about It wasn't any of the It
Speaker 1: wasn't grand because it was big or expensive. It was
Speaker 1: grand because it was so thought through, like it was
Speaker 1: the right pair of shoes. And I was like, that
Speaker 1: was beautiful. And then a few years ago I had
Speaker 1: a person in my life send me a life magazine
Speaker 1: like the old ones that I don't think are in
Speaker 1: print anymore, and it was signed about the Dali Lama
Speaker 1: and they send that to me as a gift, and
Speaker 1: I was like, this is the best gift ever, Like
Speaker 1: this person understands me. And so I started to realize
Speaker 1: that even my love for gifts wasn't because I wanted something.
Speaker 1: It was because a gift made me feel understood, right,
Speaker 1: it was it was That's what I was looking for,
Speaker 1: was a sense of you know me, the sense you
Speaker 1: got when your mom gave me that gift that she
Speaker 1: knew what you wanted and needed. You didn't even have
Speaker 1: to say it, yeah, she just like could see into you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Only realizing that that's very hard to do and putting
Speaker 1: that pressure on my wife was not smart because it
Speaker 1: takes a while for people to get to know you,
Speaker 1: and you know, it takes a while for people to
Speaker 1: know what kind of gifts you want. And also she
Speaker 1: was learning at the same time, she was learning that
Speaker 1: I needed gifts because in her eyes, spending good time
Speaker 1: with each other was the gift. And in my head,
Speaker 1: I was like, no, like the gifts the gift, and
Speaker 1: time together is not the gift. And so it's really
Speaker 1: interesting when two people are learning something at the same time.
Speaker 1: And it's hard because when you're both learning the same
Speaker 1: thing at the same time, you just like, you know,
Speaker 1: knocking against each other. Yeah, finding that person, finding your person,
Speaker 1: whether that's like your person of the season or your
Speaker 1: person for the rest of your life. You're bringing together
Speaker 1: two most likely very different families of origin. And it's
Speaker 1: like your world view is shaped by the people that
Speaker 1: raise you, and so you're touching on all these things.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the way that I received love
Speaker 1: from my mom. So this is the way that as
Speaker 1: a small child becomes deeply ingrained in me at how
Speaker 1: people are supposed to receive it too. And it sounds
Speaker 1: like she had a different experience and like you said,
Speaker 1: navigating and learning these things at the same time, much
Speaker 1: more difficult than when you have like an apprentice and
Speaker 1: somebody mentoring them, somebody knows something. But oftentime in relationships,
Speaker 1: you're realizing together like hmm, I don't actually know anything
Speaker 1: and neither to you, but we're trying to figure that
Speaker 1: out while we're getting to know each other. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: with this like deep desire and need to be seen.
Speaker 1: That's so much of being loved. Yeah. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: found that I would often overlove my wife and then
Speaker 1: make her feel guilty for not loving me the same
Speaker 1: keeping tabs, keeping tabs. Yeah, can you give me an
Speaker 1: example of overloving I would do something spontaneous like plan
Speaker 1: a weekend activity or whatever it may be, But then
Speaker 1: if she doesn't plan something the next weekend, I'm mad
Speaker 1: at her and it's like that's you know, now, it
Speaker 1: sounds stupid saying it, but it's like at that time
Speaker 1: it felt really real, where it's like why are you're
Speaker 1: not doing it back? But I haven't said I want that,
Speaker 1: I haven't expressed that I need that. She was just
Speaker 1: supposed to know. She was just supposed to know, and
Speaker 1: she was just supposed to get it. And if I've
Speaker 1: thought about it, how come she can't think about the
Speaker 1: next thing, and it was like, and you just feel
Speaker 1: you're so right, Like I think that's what's so hard
Speaker 1: talking about it now, I'm like, I can see why
Speaker 1: it's wrong, but when you're in that position, you feel
Speaker 1: like it's so right where you're like, but I'm doing
Speaker 1: all of this for us, and what do you do?
Speaker 1: And I think I've always felt that way, Like that's
Speaker 1: always been like a very deep rooted feeling of like
Speaker 1: I do I work so hard for this relationship, but
Speaker 1: I don't think you do. And I saw this really
Speaker 1: incredible image on social media today and it was inspiring
Speaker 1: a story in me. I was like this this, you know,
Speaker 1: this could be a story, but it's like imagine. Imagine
Speaker 1: you're on a like a vacation and you're on a
Speaker 1: really high mountain to up and unfortunately your partner slips
Speaker 1: and falls and you go to grab them and you
Speaker 1: thankfully you catch hold of them so they don't fall off.
Speaker 1: And what ends up happening after that is one of
Speaker 1: the rocks from behind you falls on your leg while
Speaker 1: you're holding onto their hand, and a snake was going
Speaker 1: up their legs. So this is the image that was
Speaker 1: on social media. It was asking for the reflection of
Speaker 1: the person being held is thinking why doesn't my partner
Speaker 1: just lift me up, not realizing that that partner has
Speaker 1: a rock on their leg, and the partner with the
Speaker 1: rock on their leg is thinking, well, why doesn't this
Speaker 1: person just lift their own weight a little bit, we
Speaker 1: could do the help, not realizing that there's a snake
Speaker 1: at their leg and they're scared of moving. And the
Speaker 1: piece of art and whoever poster was trying to get
Speaker 1: that question of, like, that's kind of what relationships are
Speaker 1: like sometimes. How do you know whether your partner is
Speaker 1: actually putting an effort into a relationship and putting in work.
Speaker 1: If you're someone that constantly feels like you're you are
Speaker 1: putting in the work, but you don't think they are,
Speaker 1: how do you know whether you're right or whether you're
Speaker 1: not right? How do you know anything? But you know
Speaker 1: when you were describing like having planned this great weekend
Speaker 1: and then expecting for someone else to return that gesture
Speaker 1: and do the same thing, and then having the experience
Speaker 1: of feeling like I put in so much work and
Speaker 1: you haven't that mindset and that person is not tuning
Speaker 1: in to pay attention to how that other person is
Speaker 1: showing up and is doing that work. So it's like,
Speaker 1: to answer that question, how do you know? If you
Speaker 1: don't put in the effort to try to recognize from
Speaker 1: like where they're coming from and see it from their perspective,
Speaker 1: you may never know, and you may continue living this
Speaker 1: life thinking that, like, nobody really cares about me because
Speaker 1: you're not upping outside of yourself and so in relationship,
Speaker 1: not just with like a romantic partner, but even your friends,
Speaker 1: your family, colleagues, teammates, Like, you're depriving yourself of the
Speaker 1: next level of connection by only thinking of it the
Speaker 1: way from your stance, from your perspective. So I flip
Speaker 1: that question back to you. It's like, how did you know?
Speaker 1: How did you come to realize that she also loves
Speaker 1: you very deeply when she wasn't getting you these big gifts. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean it's exactly that you hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the head. It it was me starting to look at
Speaker 1: how she contributed to the relationship, and I started to
Speaker 1: realize there were so many ways she contributed to a
Speaker 1: healthy relationship. It was She's the only person I've ever
Speaker 1: been with who is extremely secure in herself and trusts
Speaker 1: me and doesn't make me feel like She's never made
Speaker 1: me feel like she doesn't trust me. And that's a
Speaker 1: massive gift in a relationship, Like the idea that my
Speaker 1: partner trusts me. I think that's a beautiful thing. When
Speaker 1: things were tough, when we were struggling, and when we
Speaker 1: were going through financial difficulties and everything like that, she
Speaker 1: was fully there with me and was like, I trust you,
Speaker 1: I'm there with you, like whatever help you need. You know,
Speaker 1: those were huge gifts in the relationship. I think even
Speaker 1: when I first met her, you know, i'd left the
Speaker 1: monastery like a year before that or less than a
Speaker 1: year before that, and I didn't have a plan or
Speaker 1: I didn't have like my life figured out, and I
Speaker 1: didn't even have a job when we first started dating,
Speaker 1: and she was okay with that, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, there are so many huge gifts here that
Speaker 1: I missed out on because I was looking at it
Speaker 1: from this singular perspective of why doesn't she do this?
Speaker 1: And that is exactly what I had to do, And
Speaker 1: even till this day, I feel sometimes I have to
Speaker 1: do that because those deep rooted ideas are so strong
Speaker 1: where I'm like, well, what does my wife contribute to
Speaker 1: this relationship? When you find there's so many things, but
Speaker 1: you can very much live in a self centered world
Speaker 1: of I'm the only one who contributes to this relationship.
Speaker 1: And I think we're scared of noticing how other people
Speaker 1: contribute because we're so attached to them contributing how we contribute,
Speaker 1: and we're scared that it almost makes us weak. Like
Speaker 1: I guess we don't want to be in a situation
Speaker 1: where they're doing more than we are, because we see
Speaker 1: that's what relationships are about. It's about doing equal for
Speaker 1: each other. Whereas I've realized that I don't think the
Speaker 1: relationship me and my wife have today is that we
Speaker 1: do equal for each other. We just do different things
Speaker 1: right for each other. For folks that are out there
Speaker 1: still thinking that relationships about equal, work, to be able
Speaker 1: to calculate that it's equal still means you're keeping tabs,
Speaker 1: you're still like trying to keep some kind of score.
Speaker 1: And that is where a lot of resentment grows and
Speaker 1: a lot of pain and a lot of like expectation.
Speaker 1: There's this idea that people talk about in therapy two
Speaker 1: of like the way that we react to our own feelings,
Speaker 1: or we react to other people. It comes from one
Speaker 1: of two places. It's like, either we're reacting because we're
Speaker 1: fearful of something, so we're trying to avoid or prevent something,
Speaker 1: or we're reacting out of love. Love for ourselves, love
Speaker 1: for the person, love for the situation in itself, which
Speaker 1: means acceptance of what it is. And you know that's
Speaker 1: like a truly loving relationship, right, Is that you're not
Speaker 1: behaving from fear of rejection, fear of oh, she doesn't
Speaker 1: love me as much as I love her, Like that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, isn't there? It sounds like you just
Speaker 1: like had this knowing that she's there for you, I'm
Speaker 1: there for her the trust. Yeah, And I think that
Speaker 1: what you just said. I think there's such a fine
Speaker 1: line between that I do things out of fear and
Speaker 1: I do things out of love because a lot of
Speaker 1: the times things that we think look like love are
Speaker 1: actually just fear in disguise. So you're like, I can,
Speaker 1: I can? You know, sometimes like you want to plan
Speaker 1: a big birthday not because you love the person, but
Speaker 1: because you're scared that they'll be sad. Like that's not love, Like,
Speaker 1: is it? Or is it is that, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like are you basing your intention on
Speaker 1: you want them to be happy or you don't want
Speaker 1: them to be mad? And sometimes we sometimes we create
Speaker 1: that and other people too, where I've had past relationships
Speaker 1: where I did things because I was scared of them.
Speaker 1: I was scared of what would happen if they got angry,
Speaker 1: and therefore you keep doing the thing. Now, you mentioned
Speaker 1: like overloving, overcompensating, So maybe one of these past relationships
Speaker 1: or some like what can you recall about something that
Speaker 1: you were overcompensating for from fear? I guess a lot
Speaker 1: of it is just staying in a situation that doesn't
Speaker 1: like I remember, I had one relationship where I'd turned
Speaker 1: up on time, I'd made a plan, I'd come up
Speaker 1: with a right evening, and the person would not appreciate
Speaker 1: the plan. They would disrupt the plan, they would want
Speaker 1: to go home early. We drive home, and they wouldn't
Speaker 1: talk to me home the whole way. And then you
Speaker 1: do that week after week after week because you just
Speaker 1: didn't want to let them down. And so you're not
Speaker 1: doing that because you love them, You're doing it because
Speaker 1: you're scared that you're going to lose them. But then
Speaker 1: it's like, why would you be scared of losing someone
Speaker 1: like that? But you get wrapped up in that belief
Speaker 1: that you upset them some way, like you did something wrong.
Speaker 1: And I mean, at least with that one, I realized
Speaker 1: that I wasn't doing anything wrong. But it's really interesting
Speaker 1: how you work differently when you have high confidence in
Speaker 1: a relationship versus low confidence. And I think in the
Speaker 1: beginning stages when I've had low confidence in relationships, because
Speaker 1: you want the other person to like you, you'll keep
Speaker 1: tolerating bad behavior because you want to be liked so
Speaker 1: bad and you're only acting in a nice way because
Speaker 1: you're scared of losing them because you think that them
Speaker 1: being with you is the only reason that you're liked.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense as an example, Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 1: if you're entering or trying to maintain a relationship and
Speaker 1: you have low self esteem, you don't have very high
Speaker 1: confidence in yourself. A lot of people have described just
Speaker 1: will anybody ever want to be with me? So it's
Speaker 1: like this might be the last person that I have
Speaker 1: a chance for, So I can't ruin it because I
Speaker 1: don't want to be alone, like so many people don't
Speaker 1: want to be alone. We fear that. There's a metaphor
Speaker 1: I think of is just like, you know, we have
Speaker 1: these glasses here, and when you enter a relationship, you're
Speaker 1: coming in with a glass, and if you're coming in
Speaker 1: with an empty one, you kind of have this like
Speaker 1: very parched expectation for the other person to fill it
Speaker 1: for you. And to constantly expect someone else to fill
Speaker 1: it for you means they are depleting their own. But
Speaker 1: you know, when you both come with a full glass
Speaker 1: and there is no expectation to fill that for each other,
Speaker 1: now you can love out of the abundance of having
Speaker 1: it for yourself. Yeah, and now this like need or
Speaker 1: expectation to fill it isn't there. It's just now we're
Speaker 1: like two full people, two whole people that can live
Speaker 1: life together, navigate life together, grow together. If that's something
Speaker 1: that's important to you, be content together, if that's what's
Speaker 1: important to you. You know, the early relationship, it really
Speaker 1: sounds like you were coming into it with glass empty.
Speaker 1: I also think at that age I just love the
Speaker 1: chase too. I think there was something about like that
Speaker 1: proving to someone that you were worthy. I think there
Speaker 1: was something about that was interesting. Was it the chase,
Speaker 1: like something about that pursuit that's interesting, Or do you
Speaker 1: think you got like reinforced when you finally got this
Speaker 1: thing that you were chasing, or I think it comes
Speaker 1: back to the it's come back kind of like gift
Speaker 1: mentality too. It's like when you see someone as a
Speaker 1: thing to get right, Like it's the idea of And
Speaker 1: that's what gift mindset is worrying sometimes because you your
Speaker 1: constantly work and that I've definitely like when I unpacked
Speaker 1: that I really I really realized that I loved the
Speaker 1: element of surprise. I love surprises. I genuinely love surprises
Speaker 1: till this day. And I realized that anyone could have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to surprise me in a loving, conscientious way.
Speaker 1: So like I feel like the idea of like saving
Speaker 1: up for the thing you want and then when you
Speaker 1: get it, you're like, it wasn't that great anyway. And
Speaker 1: I think we all feel that way with things. Things
Speaker 1: never live up to their height. The joy and the
Speaker 1: pleasure of a thing is very short lived. We know that,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I think we're programmed to believe that relationships
Speaker 1: and people are like that as well, where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: once you get that person, then you'll be happy, and
Speaker 1: you you almost treat it like a achievement. And I
Speaker 1: think that in my teens that was definitely there, and
Speaker 1: I needed some people who were pro rejectors, were professional
Speaker 1: rejecting me to help me learn that that didn't always work,
Speaker 1: Like that wasn't a good path to take. We're saying,
Speaker 1: like the neural transmitter dopamine, Like dopamine is something that's
Speaker 1: released when something good happens, like when we're our reward
Speaker 1: receptors in our brain, like getting the thing that we
Speaker 1: were pursuing, and we do feel good, but it's momentary
Speaker 1: and it's like it's our bodies like training us to
Speaker 1: continue pursuing good stuff because we want to feel good.
Speaker 1: But then in a long lasting partnership and relationship, a
Speaker 1: lot of times it doesn't feel good. So can you
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about like relationships when it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel good, how do you know that you're supposed
Speaker 1: to keep going? Like what makes it worth fighting for?
Speaker 1: That's even a strange term for it. Yeah, that's no.
Speaker 1: I've thought about that a lot, actually, because I'd said
Speaker 1: that my marriage right now is the only relationship I've
Speaker 1: ever worked beyond that point. And I realized that there
Speaker 1: were so many relationships earlier in my life that I
Speaker 1: just tapped out of because I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this anymore, Like why are we wasting
Speaker 1: our time? Why are we doing this? I think there's
Speaker 1: a couple of things. I think one is that the
Speaker 1: other person also wants to work on it in a
Speaker 1: real way, So you want to work on it and
Speaker 1: the other person wants to work on it. I think
Speaker 1: what I found in previous relationships is I didn't want
Speaker 1: to work on it, and someone says they want to
Speaker 1: work on it, but they don't really want to work
Speaker 1: on it and themselves. And I think that's the question.
Speaker 1: It's like, am I willing to work on myself for
Speaker 1: this person? It's not am I willing to work on
Speaker 1: this relationship? It's am I willing to work on myself
Speaker 1: for this person? And is that person willing to work
Speaker 1: on themselves for me? And I think that's where I
Speaker 1: feel with my wife right now. I'm like, at this
Speaker 1: point in our relationship, I know she wants to work
Speaker 1: on herself for me. Is she'll say that? And I
Speaker 1: know I want to work on myself for her. So
Speaker 1: that's one thing that I definitely have looked for. And
Speaker 1: I've seen that difference in past relationships in this relationship,
Speaker 1: in past relationships where I didn't work out or where
Speaker 1: you didn't push through, it's because ultimately, I felt, no
Speaker 1: matter what I did, this person would never be convinced
Speaker 1: I loved them. So I dated a lot of people
Speaker 1: that I felt that even if I did what they
Speaker 1: wanted me to do, and even if I tried my
Speaker 1: best to love them in the way they want to
Speaker 1: be loved, they still were unconvinced that I loved them
Speaker 1: as well, because to them, they were still going through
Speaker 1: that process of filling their cup. So no matter how
Speaker 1: much I filled their cup, they always felt thirsty or
Speaker 1: they felt parched, and I was just like, Okay, so
Speaker 1: this doesn't make any sense because no matter what I do,
Speaker 1: this person would never be convinced. So I can't keep
Speaker 1: working on this. Whereas within my current relationship today, I'm like,
Speaker 1: Raley doesn't demand a lot, and she's quite full already,
Speaker 1: and I think I'm the same back with her, and
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like a sense of like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: everything's a bonus, like everything's exciting, everything's fresh all when
Speaker 1: things are tough, let's get back to figuring out what
Speaker 1: is it that currently is making things tough. But there's
Speaker 1: an underlying feeling of you love me enough and I
Speaker 1: love you enough, if that makes sense. There's not a
Speaker 1: sense of feeling that emptiness, and I think there's just
Speaker 1: an open space to talk about it without judgment. And
Speaker 1: they're getting ugly, Like I have like difficult conversations with
Speaker 1: my wife, and I'll say to her, like I have
Speaker 1: a rule that since we've been together, I always say
Speaker 1: to him, like, if the relationship is not going in
Speaker 1: a direction we both wanted to, I want you to
Speaker 1: tell me, and I'll tell you. And so I've sat
Speaker 1: down with it, and I'd be like, I don't like
Speaker 1: where this relationship is going right now, Like this isn't
Speaker 1: the relationship by one? Is it the relationship you one?
Speaker 1: If it isn't, what are you willing to get it
Speaker 1: to where you want it to be? And if it isn't,
Speaker 1: what am I willing to get it to where we
Speaker 1: want it to be? And what do we want it
Speaker 1: to be? And so I think we have that conversation
Speaker 1: regularly like you know, at least once or twice a year,
Speaker 1: because you're naturally going to go off track, like that's
Speaker 1: you can never just be on track. And I think
Speaker 1: in other relationships, not only did we assume we'd always
Speaker 1: be on track, I think when we went off track,
Speaker 1: we were very unhealthy. And how we talked about it,
Speaker 1: and at least with my wife, I think there's a
Speaker 1: sense of humility from both sides in saying we got
Speaker 1: this wrong, let's try again, let's shift this, And so
Speaker 1: I think a sense of lack of ego makes it
Speaker 1: easier to work on it continuously, whereas if you both
Speaker 1: did just have an ego all the time that you're
Speaker 1: doing everything right and the other person's wrong, then that
Speaker 1: discourages a relationship. And this is where this like cliche
Speaker 1: thing of like, oh well, my therapist said that I
Speaker 1: need to use eye statements. So if folks have heard
Speaker 1: of this, it's like this comes from coming into maybe
Speaker 1: like a emotionally charged topic with someone you really care about,
Speaker 1: and not starting with the you did this, you make
Speaker 1: me do this, you make me feel this like you
Speaker 1: are whatever. That's like very like blame centric language, and
Speaker 1: you mentioned humility. It's like coming into the conversation like
Speaker 1: humbled by. I'm not going to put actions and intentions
Speaker 1: in your mouth. I'm just going to show up with
Speaker 1: how I feel about it. And that's what I statements are,
Speaker 1: I feel so and so when you do this, I
Speaker 1: would like when so and so, I am expressing what
Speaker 1: my needs are and this is what I think you
Speaker 1: can do to help me meet those two And that's
Speaker 1: that's where that thing comes from, right that I statements,
Speaker 1: it's it's very important to show up as you, not
Speaker 1: you are the one that's going to make this all better. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've I've always had my own little version of that.
Speaker 1: I've always said, instead of you and me, use us
Speaker 1: and we. And so when I'm thinking about constructively moving
Speaker 1: away from the conflict or moving moving forward with it,
Speaker 1: I'd always say, what are we willing to do for
Speaker 1: this relationship? And what is something that's important to both
Speaker 1: of us? And that way now where a team we're
Speaker 1: working on it together, where we're solving this, rather than like, well,
Speaker 1: you make me feel like this and you do this
Speaker 1: wrong or you and it's almost like saying, well, there's
Speaker 1: no responsibility on my end, whereas I often go we're
Speaker 1: pretty much both struggling with this. How are you struggling
Speaker 1: with it? Right, and then giving the opportunity but then
Speaker 1: going we're both struggling with this. It's not like a
Speaker 1: you and me, it's and so I think shirking responsibility
Speaker 1: has always been hard to build with someone who you
Speaker 1: feel is just always making it your fault or you're
Speaker 1: making it their fault. I don't think you can get
Speaker 1: past that after a couple of years, because it's hard,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think with my wife too, I
Speaker 1: think we if we have a fall into those patterns,
Speaker 1: we're constantly trying to say okay, okay, wait we can
Speaker 1: see ourselves moving into that pattern and then try and
Speaker 1: come back. All the other side is you just get
Speaker 1: numb from everything right Like that I think is also unhealthy,
Speaker 1: where you don't feel anything about anything, you're just indifferent,
Speaker 1: and that's not a loving relationship either. So I think
Speaker 1: some people may not experience extreme conflict, but I think
Speaker 1: some people extreme experience indifference where you don't feel any
Speaker 1: different whatever happens with your partner. Man, You're right, Indifference
Speaker 1: apathy in a relationship I think is sometimes even more
Speaker 1: like slippery slope dangerous than having hateful feelings towards your partner,
Speaker 1: because that means you still have song and a passion there.
Speaker 1: I really like what you're saying about using this WEE
Speaker 1: language versus you versus me, because this is something that
Speaker 1: people can expect in couples therapy. Also is you come
Speaker 1: in and you start learning how to reframe you versus me,
Speaker 1: I versus you. It's we versus the problem, right, And
Speaker 1: so I really like that, and I tend to use
Speaker 1: that kind of language with my clients, like when I'm
Speaker 1: trying to express something to help my client feel like
Speaker 1: they're not alone in the struggle. You know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do a lot of things to try to normalize.
Speaker 1: This is like this experience of helping the client feel
Speaker 1: like they're not the only person in the world to
Speaker 1: experience this. So I don't always say, like, yeah, people
Speaker 1: experience anxiety that way. I say, we experience anxiety in
Speaker 1: that way. We tend to and then the list off
Speaker 1: whatever symptoms people have. So I like this idea of
Speaker 1: bringing some attention to the collective experience of us. And
Speaker 1: you know, it's like really easy to want to just
Speaker 1: go the I me route, especially in Western cultures. This
Speaker 1: is a way that we're raised, This is a way
Speaker 1: that we're socialized to be an independent, unique and individual,
Speaker 1: which those things are great, especially in relationship. There isn't us,
Speaker 1: There isn't we. We're doing this here. We're choosing each
Speaker 1: other every day, which is not easy. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think I realized that exactly what you're saying during actually
Speaker 1: the week of my wedding. And you know, I know
Speaker 1: a lot of friends, family team members that are preparing
Speaker 1: for a wedding right now, and I don't think everyone
Speaker 1: talks about enough openly how stressful weddings are. Where weddings
Speaker 1: are meant to be the best day of your life,
Speaker 1: They're meant to be all these exciting things, and they are,
Speaker 1: but they also have a lot of stress leading up
Speaker 1: to them. The week of I remember, you know, everyone
Speaker 1: has so many opinions and family wants you to do
Speaker 1: it this way, and the other family wants you to
Speaker 1: do this way, and both people are holding together their
Speaker 1: families opinions and values and rituals and traditions as well
Speaker 1: as their own, and it can be a really I
Speaker 1: feel like marriages nearly break people up because they're so
Speaker 1: intense and stressful, and I remember saying that exacting to
Speaker 1: rather the week we got married, where I was just like,
Speaker 1: this is how it's always going to be. There's always
Speaker 1: going to be so many people who have opinions about
Speaker 1: how we should do this and how we should have
Speaker 1: done that, and more importantly, people are going to tell
Speaker 1: you how I should be different and people are going
Speaker 1: to tell me how you should be different. And I
Speaker 1: was like, the only two people that need to agree
Speaker 1: on me and you, and then we need to make
Speaker 1: sense of everything else that's going on because and if
Speaker 1: we don't set that habit now, we're going to constantly
Speaker 1: be lost and struggling. And I think that was the
Speaker 1: week where we were able to admit that there were
Speaker 1: people in our lives that wanted what was best for
Speaker 1: us according to them, but not best for us, and
Speaker 1: we were the only ones who could decide what is
Speaker 1: best for us by knowing ourselves and knowing each other.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I just think all of these experiences in
Speaker 1: life are helping you get there, but you have to
Speaker 1: use them as a way of not looking at it
Speaker 1: as me versus you, as you said, you have to
Speaker 1: look at it as like, well, what can we learn
Speaker 1: from this? What can we grow from this? What are
Speaker 1: we to solve with this? And I think that's constantly
Speaker 1: been my approach, at least in my post month life,
Speaker 1: of whenever there's an issue, it isn't their problem or
Speaker 1: my problem. And I think that's the issue, right. You
Speaker 1: literally have to obliterate that thought after time where it's like,
Speaker 1: this isn't a you issue or me issue. This is
Speaker 1: something we are dealing with and how do we figure
Speaker 1: it out? And I think if you say that the
Speaker 1: other person doesn't want to figure it out or doesn't
Speaker 1: see it, that's where you start going. Well, I don't
Speaker 1: know where this is going, because I think there has
Speaker 1: to be a collective responsibility. It's just like it's a
Speaker 1: huge metaphor here. It's not just about our spouse or
Speaker 1: a romantic partner. It's like so much of what you're
Speaker 1: reflecting on would be so helpful for society as a whole. Right,
Speaker 1: if we all could adopt some more of this us
Speaker 1: versus the problem mentality, I think that would be really
Speaker 1: really helpful for a lot of people. And it seems
Speaker 1: like this is like a value and a notion that
Speaker 1: I think that you try to have an impact on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's easier to choose a side. It's easy
Speaker 1: to pick a side and stick with it, and pick
Speaker 1: a story and stick with it. It's harder to hold
Speaker 1: two seemingly opposite ideas and figure out how they connect
Speaker 1: and how they correlate. But I think that all of
Speaker 1: us would agree that if you look at any relationship
Speaker 1: in your life, you know you had something to do
Speaker 1: with it and the other person has something to do
Speaker 1: with it. I don't think there's ever been anything in
Speaker 1: the world that is completely one sided until it gets
Speaker 1: you know that. I mean, I'll check that back. I
Speaker 1: think there may be certain things that are completely one sided,
Speaker 1: and you have to be aware of those and be
Speaker 1: careful of those in your own relationships. But I can
Speaker 1: definitely say in my life at least, that most things
Speaker 1: have been two sided, and you can see two hands
Speaker 1: in all of it. Yeah, and you know the I
Speaker 1: versus you mentality. It's like, sometimes it feels like it's
Speaker 1: emotionally easier to take that path because I'm putting guards
Speaker 1: up and protecting myself from whatever the US we mentality.
Speaker 1: Like you said, it means that you have to own up,
Speaker 1: to take accountability for your part in this, which can
Speaker 1: be very uncomfortable for people. It's very painful sometimes to
Speaker 1: confront this idea that you're not always making the best choices,
Speaker 1: that you have done things that are hurtful to people.
Speaker 1: A lot of us just like don't want to admit that.
Speaker 1: We think it puts you in a position of weakness,
Speaker 1: and yes, with a unhealthy partner, it does, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that's part of how you know where it's
Speaker 1: like if you disclose vulnerably, hey I think I messed
Speaker 1: this up, let's talk about it, and they're like, yeah, look,
Speaker 1: you know you already know you messed it up, like
Speaker 1: you got it wrong like that. If someone uses that
Speaker 1: in that way, then yeah, that is that can be
Speaker 1: a hunhealthy relationship. Whereas if someone goes, I'm glad you
Speaker 1: noticed that, but I know I'm responsible for this too.
Speaker 1: There's something that can be built there, and I think
Speaker 1: you need someone and not everyone can do that in
Speaker 1: the moment. Not everyone's going to do that when you're
Speaker 1: having the fight. Now everyone's going to do that in
Speaker 1: the argument. Sometimes people need more time and knowing that
Speaker 1: is important too, because not everyone in the moment is
Speaker 1: able to be that vulnerable straight away. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that to me, this has been really helpful today and
Speaker 1: useful today because you know, I think what you said
Speaker 1: about always feeling like we're the one doing every all
Speaker 1: the work, and those kind of mindsets can really lose
Speaker 1: a good thing. We've also talked about some of the
Speaker 1: unhealthy things to watch out for, and so I think
Speaker 1: it's it's just a healthy discussion because I think relationships
Speaker 1: are constantly They're constantly going on in our life, so
Speaker 1: you never get to a place where you're like, we
Speaker 1: mastered that, now we're on to the next thing. These
Speaker 1: things are all so deep rooted that I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: dealing with these things on a daily basis with my
Speaker 1: wife because you're just living with another human being, another mind,
Speaker 1: another person, and you've got to constantly refresh these ideas.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Yeah, I've genuinely appreciated refreshing
Speaker 1: some of these again ideas that I'm conscious of, but
Speaker 1: it's useful talking it out with someone and hearing your
Speaker 1: your take on them too. Yeah, there's a big power
Speaker 1: in articulating the stuff that's like going on in our
Speaker 1: minds all the time. You talked about this, like this
Speaker 1: is stuff that I already know, but there's difference between
Speaker 1: like knowing and speaking expressing and like getting it out
Speaker 1: in there for like another person to witness it. It
Speaker 1: does something, So thank you for being open with me too.
Speaker 1: Thank you everyone's been listening and watching. I hope that
Speaker 1: we discovered some useful skills and tools for you to
Speaker 1: apply in your relationships. I hope that you've got a
Speaker 1: deeper sense and understanding of, you know, the simplicity of
Speaker 1: therapy too. Where we turned into a conversation at one
Speaker 1: point and I was sharing my opinions and ideas, and
Speaker 1: I was getting to hear Hay Sue's opinions and ideas too.
Speaker 1: And I hope that this encourages you, a family member,
Speaker 1: a friend to seek advice, seek help, seek therapy if
Speaker 1: that's what they need, that's what they're looking for. Please
Speaker 1: pass this on to someone who may be on the
Speaker 1: fence of figuring out whether it's useful to them, and
Speaker 1: just these be encouraged to have their first session and
Speaker 1: see how it goes. Again, I want to give a
Speaker 1: big thank you to our partners a better help. I
Speaker 1: want to give a big thank you to Hey Sue
Speaker 1: for being here and always facilitating these sessions so wonderfully,
Speaker 1: and a big thank you to all of you've been
Speaker 1: listening and watching. I appreciate you trusting me with your time,
Speaker 1: but also I trust you so much, and so I've
Speaker 1: been opening up so vulnerably in these sessions. I trust
Speaker 1: you with that. Thank you so much. This episode was
Speaker 1: sponsored by better Help Online Therapy. Big thanks again to
Speaker 1: Hey Sue Joe, head of clinical operations at Better Help.
Speaker 1: So just so you know, this was a therapy session
Speaker 1: that you got to get a look inside of. But Hey,
Speaker 1: Sue Joe is not my therapy. We do not have
Speaker 1: a therapist client relationship. But I wanted to show you
Speaker 1: what a therapy session could look like. Also, just because
Speaker 1: you might hear something on the show that sounds similar
Speaker 1: to what you're experiencing, beware of self diagnosis. You want
Speaker 1: to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnosis
Speaker 1: if that's important to you