1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Today's show is about wood. Wood literally grows on trees, 2 00:00:23,716 --> 00:00:28,796 Speaker 1: or it grows in trees, or maybe wood is trees. Anyway, 3 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: My point is we treat wood as this ubiquitous, worthless 4 00:00:33,556 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: thing all over the country all the time, wood just 5 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 1: falls to the ground, stays there and rots. And yet 6 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:46,436 Speaker 1: at the same time there is this vast industry devoted 7 00:00:46,476 --> 00:00:49,956 Speaker 1: to growing trees, cutting them down, and selling them as lumber. 8 00:00:50,916 --> 00:00:55,076 Speaker 1: This combination effects suggests a profound possibility that is both 9 00:00:55,196 --> 00:00:58,476 Speaker 1: very simple and very hard to realize. What if we 10 00:00:58,556 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: used more of the wood that falls to the ground 11 00:01:00,956 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: so we didn't have to cut down so many trees. 12 00:01:15,716 --> 00:01:18,516 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is what's your problem. My guest 13 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 1: today is Ben Christensen. He's the co founder and CEO 14 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:25,156 Speaker 1: of Cambium, a company that is the largest seller of 15 00:01:25,196 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 1: salvaged wood in America. Ben's problem is this, how do 16 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: we take the wood that is literally falling to the 17 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 1: ground all around us and sell it so that people 18 00:01:34,796 --> 00:01:38,436 Speaker 1: can use it to build things. In our conversation, Ben 19 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:41,476 Speaker 1: and I talked about wood, and we talked about technology, 20 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 1: about software and AI, and also about whether local wood 21 00:01:45,796 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 1: actually matters or is just vibes and side note, we 22 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:53,276 Speaker 1: talked about running one hundred and thirty one miles without stopping, 23 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: which is a thing Ben has done. Ben grew up 24 00:01:56,916 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 1: in New Mexico in a house without central heat, where 25 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 1: he had to chop wood for the fireplace. In grad school, 26 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:07,396 Speaker 1: he studied forestry at Yale. All of this to say 27 00:02:07,396 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 1: that he has been into wood for a long time. 28 00:02:10,476 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: To start, he told me about the moment several years 29 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: ago when he was back home in New Mexico and 30 00:02:16,076 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 1: he had this epiphany that inspired him to get into 31 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: the salvage wood business. 32 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:24,036 Speaker 2: It was a hot summer day, was going into a 33 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:28,076 Speaker 2: grocery store and saw a bunch of firewood out front, 34 00:02:28,116 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 2: and I thought, huh, you know, I just left a 35 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:32,636 Speaker 2: big pilot wood a quarter mile away. I wonder where 36 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 2: this firewood is coming in from. We're in Albuquerque, New Mexico, 37 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 2: and the firewood was being shipped in from Estonia, and 38 00:02:39,516 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 2: I thought, that can't make sense. You know, what is missing, 39 00:02:44,476 --> 00:02:46,716 Speaker 2: the fact that you know you've got less than a 40 00:02:46,716 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 2: mile apart all of this wasted material and all this 41 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 2: material that is getting shipped in from Europe. What's missing? 42 00:02:52,956 --> 00:02:56,356 Speaker 2: And so that was a starting spark moment of diving in. 43 00:02:56,556 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I will say, certainly, what you're saying is 44 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 1: it makes common sense. There's a common sense resonance to it. 45 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:08,996 Speaker 1: On the other hand, globalization is amazing and amazingly efficient, 46 00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:13,396 Speaker 1: and so contrary to a contrary to what common sense 47 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 1: might suggest, it might actually make sense to send firewood 48 00:03:16,436 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: from Estonia to New Mexico, even when there's wood in 49 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 1: New Mexico. Like things like that happen all the time, 50 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:25,396 Speaker 1: and often when you look into it for good reason. 51 00:03:26,516 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's truth in that. The 52 00:03:29,436 --> 00:03:32,156 Speaker 2: most validating piece of that is somebody who's doing it. 53 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: Right, and it was probably cheap, right, it was probably 54 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 1: weirdly cheap to get that bundle of wood whatever that 55 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:41,156 Speaker 1: is seven thousand miles across an ocean and two thirds 56 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 1: of a continent exactly. 57 00:03:42,796 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 2: And we can talk about maybe what is left out 58 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 2: and the value of that at a different moment, but 59 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:49,556 Speaker 2: the high level point there is somebody's doing it. 60 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:50,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. 61 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 2: And also there's a reason that people weren't using that 62 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 2: waste material, and that's obviously what we're focused on solving, 63 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 2: is taking what is this huge waste problem and really 64 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 2: tying it in bringing in the technology and the tools 65 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 2: to do that, creating the markets to do it. There's 66 00:04:04,636 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 2: a lot of different reasons and a lot of work 67 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:08,476 Speaker 2: you have to do to really use that waste material, 68 00:04:08,476 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 2: and there's a reason and why it's been a waste historically. 69 00:04:11,836 --> 00:04:14,796 Speaker 1: So okay, so you had this idea of, you know, 70 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:16,956 Speaker 1: why can't we use the wood that is just sitting 71 00:04:16,956 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: here in New Mexico in the US whatever, rather than say, 72 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 1: flying it in from Estonia. But that's kind of like 73 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:27,436 Speaker 1: a big abstract idea. Was there some moment when you 74 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 1: realized how it could actually work in a meaningful way 75 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 1: at scale? 76 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:36,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we started to realize and this had always 77 00:04:36,396 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 2: been my intuition I grew up in this industry, is 78 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 2: that our goal started to become to create the fundamental 79 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 2: technology for the industry. So when you think about wood, 80 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:48,916 Speaker 2: there's eight to ten different steps. A lot of people 81 00:04:48,956 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 2: have to touch it before it, you know, ends up 82 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:53,476 Speaker 2: in your kitchen or ends up in an office building. 83 00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 2: At each of those steps, there is a transaction. People 84 00:04:57,236 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 2: are working and there's no connective tissue. And that's really 85 00:04:59,836 --> 00:05:01,956 Speaker 2: what we saw in the salvage space first, because that's 86 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 2: why it's being wasted. That's why you have a spot 87 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:07,236 Speaker 2: that is, you know, half a mile away from a 88 00:05:07,276 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 2: grocery store. There's no connection. There's just no connectivity between 89 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: those two worlds. And so what we saw is there's 90 00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 2: an opportunity to create the fundamental data layer. But to 91 00:05:17,316 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 2: do that, you have to create demand. And so that's 92 00:05:19,716 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 2: something I've always believed is you're going to bring software, 93 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 2: you're going to bring AI, you're going to bring tools 94 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:28,196 Speaker 2: into this space. You have to create value by creating 95 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 2: demand first. 96 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 1: So how do you do that? 97 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 2: You sell would and and that's the kicker. 98 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:39,556 Speaker 1: So like what does that mean for you? Like what 99 00:05:39,596 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: does that mean in the case of your business. 100 00:05:42,276 --> 00:05:46,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, starting with the demand is selling a material 101 00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 2: to the end customer. So we sell into large commercial 102 00:05:50,676 --> 00:05:54,276 Speaker 2: buildings think like data centers or fulfillment centers. We sell 103 00:05:54,396 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 2: into large furniture companies like Room and Boartant Steelcase. We 104 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:01,076 Speaker 2: sell into you know, large corporates when they build new stores. 105 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:02,716 Speaker 2: We do a lot of different work there. 106 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:04,716 Speaker 1: So what is the business now? 107 00:06:05,676 --> 00:06:08,036 Speaker 2: So we sell would so we make it easier for 108 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:11,076 Speaker 2: people to buy wood that has sort of the best 109 00:06:11,116 --> 00:06:14,436 Speaker 2: price in the market, that has the best sourcing in 110 00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 2: the market. So if you buy a million dollars worth 111 00:06:16,556 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 2: of wood and have no idea where it came from, 112 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 2: no idea when it's going to show up, you know, 113 00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 2: really sort of limited QAQC. And so that's what our 114 00:06:23,396 --> 00:06:26,516 Speaker 2: platform really allows. Well, we sell what that's basically what 115 00:06:26,556 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 2: we do to the end customer, and then we are 116 00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 2: building the supply chain full stack supply chain tool upstream. 117 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:36,276 Speaker 2: So we essentially are bringing AI transactions and payments into 118 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 2: the industry for all of those steps that go into 119 00:06:38,876 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 2: producing wood that is then sellable. 120 00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: So those are sort of two different businesses, right, and 121 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:47,396 Speaker 1: we can talk about them in turn. We sell wood 122 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: is carbon smart wood, right, There is a brand of 123 00:06:52,596 --> 00:06:54,796 Speaker 1: wood that one can buy called Carbon smart Wood. That's 124 00:06:54,796 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: the wood that you sell, is that right? 125 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 2: So we sell our own brand. You know, there's no 126 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,556 Speaker 2: real brands in wood. It's a trillion dollar industry and 127 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:05,476 Speaker 2: no one cares really if you buy it from this 128 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:05,876 Speaker 2: or that. 129 00:07:06,036 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: It's a commodity, right, it's like oil or corn or 130 00:07:08,916 --> 00:07:09,756 Speaker 1: some thing, right. 131 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, but we don't think it has to be 132 00:07:11,356 --> 00:07:14,196 Speaker 2: that way. And you know, by bringing in the Carbon 133 00:07:14,196 --> 00:07:18,236 Speaker 2: smartweed brand, we're really doing that storytelling, you know, creating 134 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 2: a lot of value for customers and loyalty around that. 135 00:07:21,356 --> 00:07:24,436 Speaker 1: It's like conflict free diamonds or something like trying to 136 00:07:24,516 --> 00:07:26,916 Speaker 1: differentiate the commodity exactly. 137 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically being able to understand where did this come from, 138 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:32,316 Speaker 2: came locally, it was salvage, or was reuse. All of 139 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 2: those things are things that our customers care about, and 140 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 2: this makes it really easy. 141 00:07:36,356 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 1: How big is that business? 142 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:43,076 Speaker 2: It's been growing really rapidly. We basically will do over 143 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 2: eight million board feet of material this year, so really 144 00:07:46,836 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 2: large scale compared to where we started. So it's it's great. 145 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 2: We're sourcing nationally now. We just expanded into Canada and 146 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 2: are doing salvage at a really hard scale and we're 147 00:07:56,436 --> 00:07:58,276 Speaker 2: now the largest salvage wood company in the country. 148 00:07:58,796 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 1: So eight I don't know how to contextualize eight million 149 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:05,196 Speaker 1: board feet, Like I actually don't know if it's a 150 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:05,876 Speaker 1: lot or a little. 151 00:08:06,876 --> 00:08:09,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's both a lot and a little. You know, 152 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:12,316 Speaker 2: when you're thinking about eight million board feet, you could 153 00:08:12,316 --> 00:08:16,956 Speaker 2: basically think about that as like essentially call it ten 154 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 2: large scale building. So if you think in your mind 155 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 2: you're looking at you know, hey, these are really big, 156 00:08:24,076 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 2: large scale like warehouses, that's essentially the volume of material 157 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 2: you'd have. 158 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:31,796 Speaker 1: So that seems like a little for America it is. 159 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:33,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're definitely still in the early stage. 160 00:08:33,676 --> 00:08:37,236 Speaker 1: Sixty billion Is that the right number of board feet 161 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: America consumes the year? 162 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 2: We're coming back to that word scale, which is there 163 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 2: is so much room. 164 00:08:42,116 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 1: To grow here, so so small, so very small, And 165 00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 1: I mean presumably part of that is because it's your 166 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 1: young company. Part of it is because I imagine there's 167 00:08:50,756 --> 00:08:53,756 Speaker 1: a there's a price premium, like how much more expensive 168 00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: is it? 169 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's largely not so wood is different in 170 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 2: every region, but generally we are price competitive with the market. 171 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:06,996 Speaker 1: Interesting, So what is the what is the constraint on 172 00:09:07,036 --> 00:09:09,676 Speaker 1: your growth at this point? Why only eight million? I'm 173 00:09:09,716 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 1: sure eight million is hard. I don't mean to be 174 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 1: sitting here in a room saying why only eight million? 175 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 1: But like, but also why only eight million? 176 00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean we five x last year, so 177 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 2: we've been growing like crazy. We're continuing to really see that. 178 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: Will it be forty million this year? 179 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 2: It should be close to that. Yeah, wow, So we 180 00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 2: are growing really really quickly. We have a huge volume 181 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,276 Speaker 2: of demand. But the truth of this is demand is 182 00:09:34,516 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 2: it takes time. Right, you're building buildings, you're building products. 183 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 2: Those are over several year time spans. And when somebody 184 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:43,756 Speaker 2: is going to use material. Again, we supply wood would 185 00:09:43,956 --> 00:09:46,916 Speaker 2: from a material perspective, you know, white oak from US 186 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 2: or white oak from somebody else is going to be 187 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 2: very similar. But when they use a new supplier, there's 188 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:54,716 Speaker 2: always you know, you got to test it right. They're 189 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 2: always going to want to see proof points that snowballs 190 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:01,196 Speaker 2: taking off. Right. We can point to really large buildings, 191 00:10:01,276 --> 00:10:03,996 Speaker 2: we can point to really scaled products with national vendors. 192 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 2: So we've got that now, but it takes some time 193 00:10:06,556 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 2: to really get people to believe in the material. 194 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:13,476 Speaker 1: Is it hard to scale the supply side when you 195 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 1: need a sort of reliable, consistent product. 196 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:20,116 Speaker 2: There's so much volume out there. We are supply chain 197 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 2: constrained in the sense that who is going to use it, 198 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:25,516 Speaker 2: making sure that you have the right relationships and the 199 00:10:25,596 --> 00:10:29,276 Speaker 2: right regions. All of that is what our software platform manages. 200 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:32,516 Speaker 2: But the actual volume of material is not really the constrain. 201 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 1: So you've mentioned the software platform a couple of times, 202 00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:38,036 Speaker 1: and I want to read a quote to you from 203 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 1: one of your investors. You probably know what it's going 204 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:43,396 Speaker 1: to be, but I'm going to do it anyway. And 205 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:46,556 Speaker 1: it's about It's about the software side of the business. Right. 206 00:10:46,676 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 1: The quote is it's critical for silicon value investors because 207 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 1: we don't want to invest in a wood company. We 208 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 1: don't want to invest in a construction company. We want 209 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:59,356 Speaker 1: to invest in a software company. Old school VC. I 210 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:01,476 Speaker 1: feel like new school VC wants to invest in wood, 211 00:11:01,476 --> 00:11:04,796 Speaker 1: but that classic VC. They love software, no marginal cost, 212 00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:09,916 Speaker 1: You're never going to be supply constrained. Great business. Tell 213 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: me about the software side of your business. Also, are 214 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 1: you a wood company? 215 00:11:14,516 --> 00:11:16,236 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, is the answer. 216 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:17,396 Speaker 1: I won't tell the investor. 217 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 2: Okay, you can tell them. 218 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 1: Okay, they know, they know. They can pretend like you're not. 219 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:26,396 Speaker 1: But there is a kind of classic story where a 220 00:11:26,436 --> 00:11:28,876 Speaker 1: company starts out to do a thing and then they 221 00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:31,316 Speaker 1: build software to do the thing, and it turns out 222 00:11:31,316 --> 00:11:35,076 Speaker 1: the software is what everybody is the great business. I mean, 223 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 1: Amazon web Services isn't exactly that Amazon is a good 224 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:41,596 Speaker 1: company in anyways, but it's kind of that, right, Like, 225 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: Amazon web Services is a very good business that was 226 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 1: built to help Amazon sell stuff that's actual stuff. Tell 227 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: me about the software side of your business. 228 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,276 Speaker 2: Sure. So basically what we are trying to build is 229 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 2: the data layer for wood. So if you think about 230 00:11:56,676 --> 00:11:59,556 Speaker 2: those eight to ten different businesses, you have wood that 231 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:02,236 Speaker 2: is you know at the tree stage. Wood that is 232 00:12:02,476 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 2: logs on a truck. It's got to go to a sawmill, 233 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:06,996 Speaker 2: it's got to be dried, it's got to be cut, 234 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 2: it's off and dried again. Then you have rye board. 235 00:12:09,956 --> 00:12:12,596 Speaker 2: Those boards are going to get somewhere to be manufactured 236 00:12:12,716 --> 00:12:15,436 Speaker 2: or shaped. Usually there's a couple of steps there. Then 237 00:12:15,476 --> 00:12:17,916 Speaker 2: you have wholesalers and distributors who are going to sort 238 00:12:17,956 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 2: of manage that inventory and then ultimately bring the commodity 239 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 2: to market. There's a lot of different steps, right. 240 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 1: And in each of those steps, is it a different company? 241 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: Is it not a vertically integrated business industry? 242 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:32,796 Speaker 2: There are a couple of you know, really large vertically 243 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 2: integrated players, you know, folks like Warehouser, Georgia pacifics your 244 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:39,716 Speaker 2: A Pacific, these really large players. Fundamentally, we're trying to 245 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 2: be vertically integrated from a data perspective. So there's about 246 00:12:43,116 --> 00:12:47,076 Speaker 2: forty five thousand smaller businesses out there that kind of 247 00:12:47,516 --> 00:12:49,596 Speaker 2: sit as the other half of the market compared to 248 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 2: those really large, publicly traded, you know, big market cap companies. 249 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:55,436 Speaker 1: And so that's like a guy with a sawmill or something, 250 00:12:55,516 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 1: to be crude about. 251 00:12:56,836 --> 00:12:59,756 Speaker 2: It, it's bigger than that, you know, thinking think about 252 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:02,916 Speaker 2: businesses that are going to be twenty to one hundred 253 00:13:02,956 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 2: and fifty people that are you know, sort of core. 254 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 2: It's your local sawmill, it's your local distributor. It's businesses 255 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 2: that are very real, more than mom and pop. But 256 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 2: they're kind of in that SMB space. 257 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: And so they are just getting some product in the 258 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:23,156 Speaker 1: middle of the supply chain from some heterogeneous set of 259 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:25,916 Speaker 1: suppliers and then selling it on to somebody else still 260 00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 1: in the middle of the stack, or some heterogeneous set 261 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:31,916 Speaker 1: of buyers. And that's the universe that you are trying 262 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 1: to bring information to. 263 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:38,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what you're touching on there is touching on 264 00:13:38,796 --> 00:13:42,076 Speaker 2: the lack of sort of macro transparency. And this is 265 00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:44,356 Speaker 2: the reason why the big players are vertically integrated, because 266 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:46,916 Speaker 2: they both exist at the demand stage and then they 267 00:13:46,956 --> 00:13:49,156 Speaker 2: exist all the way back up to the tree stage. 268 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 2: When you look at how the rest of the market operates, 269 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:53,756 Speaker 2: that's not true. You kind of know who's above you, 270 00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 2: and you know who's downstream of you, but you don't 271 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 2: know two people above you, and you don't know who's 272 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 2: actually buying it at the end of the day, and 273 00:14:00,076 --> 00:14:02,636 Speaker 2: that leads to a lot of inefficiency. There's a lot 274 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 2: of opportunities, particularly around having and holding inventory that you 275 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 2: don't need to hold because you're trying to hold it 276 00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:12,276 Speaker 2: so that when somebody calls and says I need wood tomorrow, 277 00:14:12,356 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 2: you're ready. If you actually work at the front end 278 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:16,236 Speaker 2: of that project, you know that they're going to need 279 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:18,156 Speaker 2: wood in nine months and you can have that deliver 280 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 2: just at time. So that's a big part of what 281 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 2: we do. 282 00:14:20,236 --> 00:14:22,236 Speaker 1: And so just to be clear, like it's costly to 283 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 1: hold inventory, right, it's a bad use of capital if 284 00:14:25,116 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 1: you can avoid it in a consistent way. Do you 285 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 1: know flexport weird question, But like I talked to Ryan 286 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:38,796 Speaker 1: Peterson when he was early in the early you know, 287 00:14:38,876 --> 00:14:40,956 Speaker 1: not long after he'd started that company, and it reminds 288 00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:42,596 Speaker 1: me a little bit of what you're talking about. Right. 289 00:14:42,636 --> 00:14:46,236 Speaker 1: He talked about they do freight forwarding, and he talked about, 290 00:14:46,276 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: you know, trying to start a little business importing something 291 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: from China and being shocked that like shipments of stuff 292 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: going around the world on giant tankers. It's like a 293 00:14:56,276 --> 00:14:59,076 Speaker 1: guy at a port with like a pad of paper 294 00:14:59,236 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 1: is actually how that business worked. Reminds me a little 295 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: bit of what you're talking. 296 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:06,276 Speaker 2: About, absolutely right. In the similarities with flexport. You know, 297 00:15:06,316 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 2: we had somebody on our team who is working with 298 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 2: one of our suppliers who literally there they were like, 299 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 2: I got to go to my office and get you 300 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 2: a you know, a slip and their office was a 301 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 2: porta potty and they came out with this slip like 302 00:15:18,796 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 2: happened like two weeks ago. You know. It is one 303 00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 2: of those things. 304 00:15:21,156 --> 00:15:23,356 Speaker 1: That slip is like a piece of paper and invoice 305 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 1: something a bill of late exactly. 306 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a scale slip. So just giving like this 307 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:29,396 Speaker 2: is how much what I got? 308 00:15:29,636 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 1: So right, so that port of putty is your opportunity exactly. 309 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 2: There's there's our new marketing campaign for sure. So the 310 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 2: basics of it is there's a lot of these different 311 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 2: steps and so to your question of how does this 312 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 2: work from a salvage perspective, well, there's a lot of steps, 313 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of steps in traditional forestry, there's 314 00:15:45,996 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 2: a lot of steps in using material to coordinate that effectively. 315 00:15:50,876 --> 00:15:54,116 Speaker 2: It's a data questioned and to really use data, well, 316 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:56,836 Speaker 2: you have to get it onto your platform very efficiently, 317 00:15:56,996 --> 00:15:58,476 Speaker 2: and then you have to make it connect. You have 318 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:00,436 Speaker 2: to make it interoperable so that at the end of 319 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:02,396 Speaker 2: the day, when we deliver wood to the end customer, 320 00:16:02,716 --> 00:16:04,756 Speaker 2: we know exactly where it came from. We know all 321 00:16:04,756 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 2: of those steps. I mean, the way to think about 322 00:16:06,796 --> 00:16:09,636 Speaker 2: it is salvage would was our starting point. What we 323 00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:11,516 Speaker 2: do now is we want to be looked at as 324 00:16:12,036 --> 00:16:14,356 Speaker 2: the future of wood. We want folks when they are 325 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:17,076 Speaker 2: buying wood to buy it in a way that is modern, 326 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:20,396 Speaker 2: that is better sourced, and that gives them the type 327 00:16:20,396 --> 00:16:23,236 Speaker 2: of optimized pricing that everyone is looking for in the market. 328 00:16:23,316 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 2: And so we are always going to be you know, 329 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:29,316 Speaker 2: have you know this sort of core ethos around salvage, 330 00:16:29,356 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 2: around reuse, around resiliency, and also we've expanded beyond that 331 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:38,436 Speaker 2: very significantly. So somewhere around fifty five ish percent of 332 00:16:38,516 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 2: the total material will move this year is going to 333 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:41,276 Speaker 2: be salvaged. 334 00:16:41,436 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: You know. 335 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 2: The other you know of that is going to be 336 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 2: sustainably harvested is part of you know, the bigger piece there, 337 00:16:47,396 --> 00:16:49,916 Speaker 2: And the real theory of change here is that when 338 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 2: you look at actually changing how we manage our forests, 339 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:57,676 Speaker 2: making that better, making that better for our planet, making 340 00:16:57,676 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 2: that better for our communities, whoever you're optimizing for, it's 341 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 2: very difficult to go to somebody who's managing that forest 342 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:06,556 Speaker 2: or to a logger and say hey, do better. Right, 343 00:17:06,876 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 2: they are interested and really driven buymarket dynamics. If you 344 00:17:11,236 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 2: are the buyer from them, if you are purchasing from 345 00:17:14,076 --> 00:17:17,156 Speaker 2: them at scale, you can then really update and control 346 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 2: and say, hey, we need you to do better if 347 00:17:19,436 --> 00:17:21,356 Speaker 2: you want us to keep buying from you. And so 348 00:17:21,436 --> 00:17:24,516 Speaker 2: that's that theory of change in which we've expanded from 349 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:28,236 Speaker 2: just salvage into forestry and wood products much more broadly. 350 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 1: And in the current system or in the system absent 351 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:34,996 Speaker 1: your software, the buyer typically doesn't know what forest it's 352 00:17:34,996 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: coming from, so they can't have any lever for change. 353 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 1: That's the sort of problem that is being solved generally. Yes, 354 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 1: And what's an example of a better forestry practice that 355 00:17:46,436 --> 00:17:47,276 Speaker 1: a buyer might want? 356 00:17:48,196 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely want local. Local is often a big driver. 357 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 2: You know, they're going to want things that are really 358 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:59,476 Speaker 2: optimized for forest health. So what we really are focusing 359 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,996 Speaker 2: on is making sure when we're working with partners who 360 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:05,316 Speaker 2: are harvesting, that they're doing that really, really well. 361 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:09,716 Speaker 1: Is there a specific example of a of a way 362 00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 1: that some forest was better managed because the buyer could 363 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: see through to the source via your platform. 364 00:18:18,156 --> 00:18:22,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's tons. I'll give an example. I 365 00:18:22,076 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 2: can't name the buyer yet, I can talk about the 366 00:18:24,756 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 2: sort of scale. So Hurricane Helen came through, you know, 367 00:18:28,436 --> 00:18:32,276 Speaker 2: recently in the southeast, knockdown tons and tons and tons 368 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: of material. That wood, you know, all those knockdown trees 369 00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:38,036 Speaker 2: is in a lot of different spots. It's not all 370 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 2: in one place. 371 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: It seems like the kind of challenge of salvage wood, right, 372 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 1: that's on at least a superficial level. It feels less efficient, right. 373 00:18:45,196 --> 00:18:46,956 Speaker 1: I suppose you don't have to grow the trees in 374 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:48,916 Speaker 1: the first place, but getting the wood when it's knocked 375 00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:50,636 Speaker 1: down and getting the right kind of wood to the 376 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:53,596 Speaker 1: right place seems quite hard. Seems like a fundamental hard 377 00:18:53,596 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 1: thing about your business. 378 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a coordination challenge. So there's all of this wood, 379 00:18:58,396 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 2: you know, in this case, we're focused mostly on southern 380 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 2: yellow pine, and there's you know, hundreds of thousands of 381 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 2: trees down, and we were able to do that coordination. 382 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 2: That complicated work in a lot of different communities to 383 00:19:10,276 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 2: get that material to be processed, to be saved. As 384 00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:15,516 Speaker 2: soon as material comes down, there's a clock on it. 385 00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:17,796 Speaker 2: You know. If you think about wood that comes down, 386 00:19:18,356 --> 00:19:21,636 Speaker 2: it's eventually going to rot, It's going to be you know, 387 00:19:21,796 --> 00:19:24,716 Speaker 2: not usable. It also is going to off gas into methane. 388 00:19:24,756 --> 00:19:26,596 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of sort of you know, negative 389 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 2: impacts there. We were able to do that, We were 390 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:31,436 Speaker 2: able to coordinate that, we were able to use it. 391 00:19:31,476 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 2: And the reason is because we had a large buyer 392 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 2: who is ready to say we will use this wood 393 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:38,716 Speaker 2: at the end, go do this coordination for us. We 394 00:19:38,836 --> 00:19:41,796 Speaker 2: want to buy it and we're really excited to use it. 395 00:19:41,876 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 2: And so we were able to save you know, hundreds 396 00:19:44,236 --> 00:19:44,836 Speaker 2: of tons there. 397 00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: That's a great case study. Tell me more about it, 398 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,676 Speaker 1: like was it across several states? Like where was it? 399 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 1: How do you get people to go do it? Why 400 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: does the buyer want it? 401 00:19:55,996 --> 00:19:59,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, so a few things. It's a crossover states, you know, 402 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:02,076 Speaker 2: lots of different sort of players there. And this is 403 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 2: a thing that we really believe as a company is 404 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 2: there's all of these great, amazing local businesses already. It's 405 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:11,796 Speaker 2: the truck drivers who can move logs, it's the sawmills 406 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:13,956 Speaker 2: who can process them. So we work with all of 407 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 2: those folks. They already you know, have you know, they 408 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 2: already know the region, they already have the tools. Largely, 409 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:22,956 Speaker 2: what they need is they need coordination and again they 410 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 2: need to be told, hey, this is where the material is, 411 00:20:26,076 --> 00:20:28,596 Speaker 2: We've got a market for it. Go do it, We'll 412 00:20:28,596 --> 00:20:30,956 Speaker 2: pay for it. We'll take on some of that risk 413 00:20:31,396 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 2: in the process in order to actually kickstart and manage 414 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:35,316 Speaker 2: that supply chain. 415 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:37,916 Speaker 1: Tell me about the buyer, like why would somebody want 416 00:20:37,956 --> 00:20:38,556 Speaker 1: to buy that? Would? 417 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 2: People love it? People love the story of your reusing material. 418 00:20:42,716 --> 00:20:45,676 Speaker 2: It becomes a very charismatic thing. It's the thing they 419 00:20:45,676 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 2: talk about in other projects. It's a great pr story, 420 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 2: something that matters. But it better be at a at 421 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 2: least an equivalent price, if not a better price. Then 422 00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 2: this is a place where you're starting to see like, oh, 423 00:21:00,636 --> 00:21:02,796 Speaker 2: this is how salvage would can work, probably in a 424 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 2: way that it couldn't have worked fifteen or twenty years ago. 425 00:21:05,676 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 1: So wait, why is it that salvage wood can work 426 00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 1: now it couldn't have worked twenty years ago. 427 00:21:11,676 --> 00:21:15,276 Speaker 2: So there's this really amazing new technology called cross laminated timber, 428 00:21:16,156 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 2: which is basically you can think about having a bunch 429 00:21:19,356 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 2: of boards and then you take those boards and your 430 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,516 Speaker 2: finger joining them. So you're cutting these little you know, 431 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:28,436 Speaker 2: sort of connections between them, and you're making really long boards. 432 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: Between those boards, you're putting your fingers together like so 433 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 1: that your fingers are interlocking on your left and right's hands. 434 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:37,596 Speaker 1: That's what's happening exactly wood. 435 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 2: So you're interlocking those joints and then you create these 436 00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 2: big sheets of wood. Right now, you've got a huge 437 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 2: sheet of usually two by fours that are you know, 438 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:52,356 Speaker 2: laying there, and then you are laying another sheet where 439 00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:57,116 Speaker 2: everything is perpendicular, so it's cross laminated. So you've got 440 00:21:57,196 --> 00:22:00,116 Speaker 2: essentially like a waffle pattern from you know, the orientation 441 00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 2: of the boards and that's sitting on top of it, 442 00:22:02,436 --> 00:22:04,836 Speaker 2: and you make a bunch of these layers and so 443 00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,796 Speaker 2: you've got a very thick panel and from that panel 444 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 2: you can replace concrete and steel in a builds. And 445 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 2: there's a few different things that are really important about that. 446 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 2: So you've highlighted some of the challenges of using salvage wood. 447 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 2: You know, it's a little less consistent. You know, you're 448 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 2: pulling it from different places. This is a great example 449 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:26,396 Speaker 2: of a new technology that's perfectly suited for that because 450 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:29,396 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what the wood looks like, right, You're 451 00:22:29,436 --> 00:22:32,076 Speaker 2: just putting it directly into it, So you're able to 452 00:22:32,236 --> 00:22:36,356 Speaker 2: use a much larger spectrum of that waste. That's where 453 00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:38,716 Speaker 2: you start to get better unit economics. That's how it 454 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,596 Speaker 2: starts to scale. So those new technologies are a big 455 00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 2: part of how we're able to use this material in 456 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:44,716 Speaker 2: bigger and bigger waste. 457 00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:48,116 Speaker 1: So was some significant chunk of the Hurricane helene wood 458 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 1: cross laminated timber. 459 00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:53,436 Speaker 2: So that whole story I just told you all went 460 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 2: into two CLT. 461 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. You mentioned that 462 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,076 Speaker 1: one of the things that that buyers, you know, the 463 00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 1: kind of final buyers want often is local wood. And 464 00:23:18,476 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 1: I get that from a kind of vibes standpoint, but 465 00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:26,076 Speaker 1: from a sort of fundamental, kind of environmental footprint standpoint, 466 00:23:26,116 --> 00:23:28,276 Speaker 1: it's not so clear to me that that is meaningful. 467 00:23:28,316 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 1: I mean, on a superficial level, I get that there's 468 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 1: some amount of carbon footprint of driving the wood whatever 469 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:36,116 Speaker 1: across the country. But I would imagine in the sort 470 00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 1: of arc of the project that's not that significant, Like 471 00:23:41,356 --> 00:23:43,436 Speaker 1: is it vibes or is there something more than vibes 472 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 1: to wanting local wood? 473 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are for sure vibes and. 474 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,516 Speaker 1: Vibes fair okay, fair, No, I get it. And like 475 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:54,396 Speaker 1: especially if you can see the wood, right, if it's framing, 476 00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 1: then it's like something. But if you can see it 477 00:23:56,596 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 1: and it's like, here is this beautiful wood that is 478 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 1: whatever a wood floor, Like I get that one. But 479 00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: that again seems back in the kind of artisanal not scalable, 480 00:24:06,516 --> 00:24:08,596 Speaker 1: like I like it when you're in a commodity business 481 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:10,796 Speaker 1: and price can right, Like if I want you to succeed, 482 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: I want your wood to be indistinguishable from all the 483 00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: other wood and maybe a little cheaper, right, Like that seems. 484 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:17,876 Speaker 2: Like the dreams, which is what we are doing. And 485 00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:20,316 Speaker 2: again this is where we have you know, a bunch 486 00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:23,036 Speaker 2: of different products with room and board where nationally you 487 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:25,316 Speaker 2: can walk into any room and board and you can 488 00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:27,836 Speaker 2: source you know, you can buy you know, a chair 489 00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 2: or a console made with you know, salvage material. That's 490 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 2: the scale. 491 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: Well, I mean that seems like a good kind of 492 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,316 Speaker 1: that's like the Tesla roadsterre one, right, like room Board 493 00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 1: is a relatively expensive furniture store. Some universe of people 494 00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:43,556 Speaker 1: who are already paying a lot for a chair, it 495 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 1: might get a warm feeling from having a salvage chair 496 00:24:47,076 --> 00:24:50,676 Speaker 1: like that that I is understandable. Like that seems like 497 00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 1: a good ad for what you're doing, right, a good 498 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:57,036 Speaker 1: kind of wedge yep. 499 00:24:57,196 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 2: And we're doing that with more and more furniture companies. 500 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:01,716 Speaker 2: Space that's been growing really rapidly. And I want to 501 00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 2: go back to what we just said there, which is 502 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:06,516 Speaker 2: it's definitely vibes and when you say vibes, you mean 503 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 2: how does it make you feel? 504 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:08,156 Speaker 1: Right? 505 00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 2: And there's some real power in that. I think the 506 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 2: main thing to emphasize that what we're trying to really 507 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,996 Speaker 2: push is you can have again the right supply chain 508 00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:20,316 Speaker 2: if you have the data, and sometimes it's going to 509 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:23,396 Speaker 2: be more efficient to do it locally. And you know, 510 00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 2: a good example is we were working with a company 511 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 2: in Philadelphia. They were sourcing their logs also from Eastern Europe, 512 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 2: so you know, actually shipping them in. We were able 513 00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:36,996 Speaker 2: to get the material from you know, a very sort 514 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:40,516 Speaker 2: of close within fifty miles and that was much more efficient, 515 00:25:40,596 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 2: and you know, their customers loved it. It was like 516 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:46,076 Speaker 2: a very very easy yes for them. That's a great 517 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:49,236 Speaker 2: example of like an optimization. We also sometimes you know, 518 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 2: not every species grows everywhere in this country, right, If 519 00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 2: you want to source southern yellow pine, you can't do that. 520 00:25:56,956 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 2: You know, in the Pacific Northwest you use the different 521 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,276 Speaker 2: species up they're used to dug fur instead, and so 522 00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 2: you have to optimize those supply chains. So the point 523 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 2: if you can have the data, you can then make 524 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:09,956 Speaker 2: those choices that are closer to right every single time. 525 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 1: Yeah. Good, So what are you working on now? 526 00:26:13,476 --> 00:26:16,196 Speaker 2: So we're really leaning in and scaling our technology. So 527 00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:19,276 Speaker 2: part of what we've uncovered here is theyre's such a 528 00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:22,276 Speaker 2: fundamental gap and bringing in AI at scale into this 529 00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:25,396 Speaker 2: industry and bringing in payments and bring in transaction. So 530 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 2: we're really building out that full data layer and you know, 531 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:31,956 Speaker 2: verticalized servicing there. So that's big for us. A lot 532 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:32,436 Speaker 2: of scale. 533 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,636 Speaker 1: You mentioned AI. What are you doing with AI? 534 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:38,116 Speaker 2: So do a lot of things, you know, back to 535 00:26:38,196 --> 00:26:40,396 Speaker 2: that main point. A lot of steps in this business, 536 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:43,956 Speaker 2: a lot of data that comes in on paper or 537 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 2: in different forms. We make that interoperable largely using AI, 538 00:26:48,996 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 2: so you can take a picture of it, you can 539 00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:53,356 Speaker 2: scan it, and then you know, you can actually use 540 00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 2: that data. The second thing that I think is the 541 00:26:56,396 --> 00:26:59,436 Speaker 2: big opportunity which we're building a lot more of, is 542 00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:01,716 Speaker 2: a lot of folks who we work with are not 543 00:27:02,316 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 2: folks who want to necessarily be on a screen. They 544 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 2: want to have a conversation. So our truckers, you know, 545 00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:10,636 Speaker 2: folks are I having a ske steer around a sawmill. 546 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:13,476 Speaker 2: When they need to get something done, they pick up 547 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 2: the phone and make a call, right, That's how they 548 00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 2: want to get it done. What AI allows you to 549 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:19,756 Speaker 2: do is it allows you to take that sort of 550 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 2: verbal piece and then actually connect it to software, so 551 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:25,396 Speaker 2: you can have a conversation about, hey, where do I 552 00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:27,476 Speaker 2: need to drop off this log or I need to 553 00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 2: fill out this piece of paperwork. Let's have a conversation 554 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 2: and I just filled out that piece of paperwork rather 555 00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:34,316 Speaker 2: than I need to actually go fill out that piece 556 00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 2: of paperwork. And so that's a big way that we 557 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 2: get more and more data. 558 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 1: In like the calling an AI on the phone, calling 559 00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: an AI agent, Like, how's that working for you and 560 00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 1: how is it working for you six months ago? Like, 561 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:46,956 Speaker 1: is it not quite working yet but you know it'll 562 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 1: be working in six months or where is that? 563 00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in process. I think that the way to 564 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 2: think about it is specific use cases today and what 565 00:27:57,196 --> 00:28:00,076 Speaker 2: we're moving towards is something that is more ubiquitous. But 566 00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 2: that's not where it is today yet. 567 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 1: Like that's one that I can imagine people getting frustrated by, 568 00:28:05,756 --> 00:28:07,916 Speaker 1: Like the guy who doesn't want to enter something on 569 00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:10,916 Speaker 1: the computer, imagine, really doesn't want to call an AI. 570 00:28:13,036 --> 00:28:17,596 Speaker 2: Yes, And we also see a lot of people starting 571 00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:21,116 Speaker 2: to adopt it, right, So there's some real opportunity there. 572 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:23,636 Speaker 2: There's also some resistance, you know, where we're bringing in 573 00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:26,196 Speaker 2: these new tools And this has always been our thesis. 574 00:28:26,236 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 2: This goes back to starting with demand. Is that if 575 00:28:29,196 --> 00:28:32,716 Speaker 2: you can create real value and you are a buyer 576 00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 2: or you're actually really driving revenue, then you can start 577 00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 2: to bring folks onto those tools in much bigger ways. 578 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:41,796 Speaker 1: Oh it's like, hey, we're going to give you a 579 00:28:41,796 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 1: bunch of business. All you got to do is call 580 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 1: our AI and you got the business up to you. Yeah, 581 00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:53,876 Speaker 1: fair enough. We'll be back in a minute with the 582 00:28:53,956 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 1: lightning round. Let's finish with the lightning round. Great, tell 583 00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 1: me one great tree fact. 584 00:29:12,556 --> 00:29:16,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean one of my favorite trees is Pando, 585 00:29:17,516 --> 00:29:18,756 Speaker 2: which have you ever heard of Pando? 586 00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 1: No? 587 00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:24,396 Speaker 2: Have you? Are you familiar with the aspen tree? 588 00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:28,436 Speaker 1: Presumably that's like many many trees. It's like a giant 589 00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:31,156 Speaker 1: grove that is one organism. 590 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 2: Exactly, So they're they're all a single organism, and Pando 591 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:37,436 Speaker 2: is the largest one, so the largest organism in the 592 00:29:37,476 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 2: whole world. And it's like the size of a valley, 593 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:43,796 Speaker 2: which is pretty unbelievable. I mean, just to like think 594 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 2: of a single living entity as. 595 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:50,676 Speaker 1: That's one guy. It's one guy, that's miles and miles big. 596 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's some debate on age, but we're talking 597 00:29:54,156 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 2: like potentially forty. 598 00:29:55,476 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 1: Thousand years for zero four zero. 599 00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:00,036 Speaker 2: Pretty crazy. Yeah. 600 00:30:00,076 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, it's funny because when I was thinking about this, 601 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:06,716 Speaker 1: I was thinking of the of the like the bristle 602 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:09,916 Speaker 1: Cone pines you know on the California in Nevada border 603 00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: that I always thought of as the oldest, but those 604 00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:15,236 Speaker 1: are like four or five thousand. I had those ready 605 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:17,556 Speaker 1: to go, and this question. 606 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:19,876 Speaker 2: This is a real ship of theseus moment, you know, 607 00:30:20,076 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 2: is it the same organism that is alive, like you know, 608 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:26,196 Speaker 2: the bristle cone, that tree has been there for that 609 00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:28,836 Speaker 2: amount of time as well, are referred to as the oldest, 610 00:30:29,516 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 2: but also the tree pando has been there for that 611 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:34,956 Speaker 2: amount of time. But was it the same tree or 612 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:36,756 Speaker 2: was it you know, it's it's that's the debate. 613 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's not a tree the way we would 614 00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 1: say a tree. 615 00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:39,836 Speaker 2: Right. 616 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:41,516 Speaker 1: If you look, you would it would look like an 617 00:30:41,516 --> 00:30:45,196 Speaker 1: aspen grove right to the to the untrained eye. But 618 00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 1: the issue is it's all genetically. 619 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 2: Identical, right and connected? Yeah? 620 00:30:50,796 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 1: Connected, and it's been there for forty thousand years same. 621 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 2: Guy, I mean, depends on who you ask. 622 00:30:56,276 --> 00:30:58,836 Speaker 1: Oh, because you can't just take a core because the 623 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 1: trees sticking up out of the ground have not been 624 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: there for forty thousand years exactly. So how do they estimate. 625 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:06,356 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how they date it. I don't know. 626 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:10,316 Speaker 1: I have an old friend who's attend chronologist, who I 627 00:31:10,316 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 1: have not talked to the nearest I'm gonna ask him. 628 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:13,076 Speaker 2: Good reason to make a call. 629 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 1: I know that you run ultra marathons. Many of the 630 00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:21,076 Speaker 1: interviews with you seem to be mostly about the ultra marathons, 631 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:22,956 Speaker 1: which I get but I am interested in would but 632 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:25,036 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about ultra marathons. 633 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 1: I heard you say that you give yourself a little 634 00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:32,036 Speaker 1: mantra something to you know, repeat to yourself as you're 635 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 1: running each time. And you mentioned joy in darkness as 636 00:31:35,596 --> 00:31:39,676 Speaker 1: when you did. I like that one. What are some 637 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:42,436 Speaker 1: other mantras you've used in long runs? 638 00:31:42,956 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I have a number. I think. 639 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,716 Speaker 2: One is when you are in the moment, and this 640 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:52,676 Speaker 2: is this is always the case with the mantra, is 641 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:55,516 Speaker 2: can you make it accessible? It has to be like 642 00:31:55,636 --> 00:31:58,236 Speaker 2: when you feel you know, you're eighty miles into a 643 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:02,356 Speaker 2: run and you're feeling not good. Usually you're usually not 644 00:32:02,396 --> 00:32:04,356 Speaker 2: feeling good. It has to be like something that you 645 00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:07,516 Speaker 2: can actually access and that you can pull up. One 646 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:12,116 Speaker 2: of one of my favorites is do not despare. You're 647 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:14,716 Speaker 2: not here to win, You're here to create beauty, and 648 00:32:14,756 --> 00:32:16,796 Speaker 2: that is always possible. So that is one. 649 00:32:17,076 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 1: Seems long for mile eighty. It seems like a lot 650 00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:21,076 Speaker 1: to remember at mile eighty. 651 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 2: It maybe is a little earlier in the race, but 652 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:27,956 Speaker 2: it's a it's a good one. Another one that is 653 00:32:28,116 --> 00:32:30,396 Speaker 2: constantly coming up for me, you know, in the space 654 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 2: is like you earned this, like in the sense of 655 00:32:33,596 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 2: this being the spot. And you know, this is always 656 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 2: a critique and I think a reasonable one of ult 657 00:32:39,596 --> 00:32:42,156 Speaker 2: running is you are choosing to put yourself and this 658 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:46,436 Speaker 2: this position, which is obviously a choice. And so when 659 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,476 Speaker 2: you think about, wow, I'm feeling really bad right now, 660 00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:53,396 Speaker 2: connecting that back to why, like I put myself in 661 00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:55,476 Speaker 2: that position, and you know, really tying it back. 662 00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:58,156 Speaker 1: To that tell me more about that one. 663 00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:00,356 Speaker 2: So what I what I mean there? This is the 664 00:33:00,356 --> 00:33:03,596 Speaker 2: one that I often feel, you know, comes up, especially 665 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 2: in the darker moments, is being like, hey, this sort 666 00:33:07,076 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 2: of reason, the bigger existential why and doing ultras to 667 00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:14,556 Speaker 2: understand the sort of expansive parts of who I am 668 00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:17,556 Speaker 2: and what I'm capable of. And you don't do that 669 00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 2: on mile eight when you're feeling good and you just 670 00:33:20,196 --> 00:33:23,556 Speaker 2: had a snack. You do that when you're in it. 671 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 2: And so again to this point of like, oh, do 672 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:30,156 Speaker 2: I view the thing that I'm going through as you know, 673 00:33:30,196 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 2: a thing I'm trying to run from, or do I 674 00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:34,716 Speaker 2: view it as the whole reason I am there? And 675 00:33:34,836 --> 00:33:37,796 Speaker 2: the point is to experience that and to move through 676 00:33:37,836 --> 00:33:40,516 Speaker 2: it in a real deep way and to learn from 677 00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 2: what that can teach you. 678 00:33:41,636 --> 00:33:46,956 Speaker 1: So I chose this, This is freedom exactly exactly. Yeah, 679 00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:50,796 Speaker 1: this is freedom is an interesting matra in many settings, right, 680 00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:54,996 Speaker 1: in many settings. What's the farthest you've ever run? 681 00:33:56,676 --> 00:33:59,716 Speaker 2: I did a one hundred and thirty one miles continuously 682 00:34:00,276 --> 00:34:03,836 Speaker 2: this summer, and then I also did just under one 683 00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:06,396 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty mile er across the Sahara a couple 684 00:34:06,436 --> 00:34:09,636 Speaker 2: of years ago, but that one involved sleeping at night, 685 00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 2: which is different. 686 00:34:11,516 --> 00:34:13,956 Speaker 1: Is there some distance you think no one should run? 687 00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 1: You know? 688 00:34:16,676 --> 00:34:20,876 Speaker 2: Something that I've become profoundly afflicted by is this belief 689 00:34:20,916 --> 00:34:23,676 Speaker 2: that you kind of go exactly as far as you 690 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:26,876 Speaker 2: think you can go. Yeah, since that the first time 691 00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:30,236 Speaker 2: I ran a marathon, I thought, yep, no way, no 692 00:34:30,356 --> 00:34:32,396 Speaker 2: way I would go further. First time I ran a 693 00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:35,276 Speaker 2: fifty mile er, I remember thinking like I literally could 694 00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:38,636 Speaker 2: not go another step, and then it just keeps going 695 00:34:38,636 --> 00:34:41,436 Speaker 2: and going, and I just got into the Moab to forty. 696 00:34:41,516 --> 00:34:43,636 Speaker 2: So I'm going to attempt two hundred and forty miles 697 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:46,316 Speaker 2: this fall. That's way further than one hundred and thirty. 698 00:34:46,356 --> 00:34:48,436 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're quick at math, it's a 699 00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 2: lot more. It's a lot further, and so we're gonna 700 00:34:50,996 --> 00:34:51,716 Speaker 2: have to see out ghosts. 701 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:53,876 Speaker 1: So you're going to try and run two hundred and 702 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:57,836 Speaker 1: forty miles all at once. Correct, How long is it 703 00:34:57,836 --> 00:34:58,476 Speaker 1: going to take you? 704 00:34:59,596 --> 00:35:03,236 Speaker 2: I mean we will see definitely a big extension. The 705 00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:05,636 Speaker 2: cutoff is just under five days. 706 00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:12,036 Speaker 1: Wow, that is so wild. What's the longest? I don't know. 707 00:35:12,076 --> 00:35:14,756 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's niches. I'm sure you can't even ask 708 00:35:14,796 --> 00:35:17,556 Speaker 1: what's the longest continuous ultra marathon? But what's the longest 709 00:35:17,556 --> 00:35:18,756 Speaker 1: continuous ultra marathon? 710 00:35:19,316 --> 00:35:21,556 Speaker 2: I mean the one? And again, this is where you're 711 00:35:21,596 --> 00:35:23,796 Speaker 2: like the orders of magnitude are just. 712 00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:27,916 Speaker 1: Totally remembering that a marathon is twenty six right, Like, Yeah, 713 00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:30,676 Speaker 1: as it gets bigger, it's like it's so many better. 714 00:35:30,756 --> 00:35:34,436 Speaker 1: You're gonna run nine marathons in a row, right, Yes. 715 00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:36,636 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. Yeah, I mean the longest one is there 716 00:35:36,676 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 2: is this thing called the Self Transcendence three thousand, which 717 00:35:39,876 --> 00:35:43,396 Speaker 2: is a three thousand miler and it's around a city 718 00:35:43,436 --> 00:35:47,156 Speaker 2: block in New York and that's beautiful sixty days and 719 00:35:47,156 --> 00:35:50,236 Speaker 2: they just run around and around and around. 720 00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:52,516 Speaker 1: Which I love that it's around one block. That's actually 721 00:35:53,156 --> 00:35:54,116 Speaker 1: so good. 722 00:35:54,476 --> 00:35:56,316 Speaker 2: I mean, the whole point is, you know, it's not 723 00:35:56,396 --> 00:35:58,236 Speaker 2: about where you are, it's it's what you're doing. 724 00:35:59,476 --> 00:36:04,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not about what's going on outside. Well, good 725 00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:05,116 Speaker 1: luck in Moab. 726 00:36:06,036 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 2: Thank you. 727 00:36:13,436 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 1: Ben Christensen is the co founder and CEO of Cambium. 728 00:36:18,116 --> 00:36:21,396 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was 729 00:36:21,676 --> 00:36:25,116 Speaker 1: edited by Lydia Jean Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. 730 00:36:25,596 --> 00:36:29,116 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. 731 00:36:29,356 --> 00:36:31,676 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 732 00:36:31,756 --> 00:36:44,156 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.