WEBVTT - Bowen Yang

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<v Speaker 1>But when I'm worried that that like right off camera,

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<v Speaker 1>there's like towering stuff, like everything that you've bought off

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<v Speaker 1>of infomercials and like the boo boos and that that

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<v Speaker 1>that one false move and it's gonna collapse and we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna have to like call an ambulance to get you out.

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<v Speaker 2>This is my audition for hoarders, and this is that's

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<v Speaker 2>my gifting closet. Everyone has some structural thing where it's

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<v Speaker 2>just a bunch of crap and you're like, I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>give I'm gonna like a hand this off to like

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<v Speaker 2>the next person who comes to my house, and like

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like should leave with something.

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<v Speaker 1>Amen. I wish, I wish I had a gifting closet.

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<v Speaker 1>If I take one thing from this, it's that I

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<v Speaker 1>need a gifting closet. Welcome to Snafoo, your favorite podcast

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<v Speaker 1>about history's greatest screw ups, or more precisely, what those

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<v Speaker 1>spends tacular face plants reveal about us, the idiotic humans

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<v Speaker 1>who just keep making them. I'm your host at Helms,

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<v Speaker 1>and my guest today is a prolific actor, comedian, writer,

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<v Speaker 1>and podcast host. You may know him as Fanny in

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<v Speaker 1>the sensation that is Wicked.

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<v Speaker 2>You may not or.

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<v Speaker 3>You may not, or perhaps you know him as the

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<v Speaker 3>co host of one of the most popular podcasts that

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<v Speaker 3>has ever existed, Las Culturistas, or maybe you've seen him

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<v Speaker 3>as the adorable mood Dang on SNL, among many other

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<v Speaker 3>beloved characters.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Snafu Bowen yang Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry that I had to go. I immediately cut

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<v Speaker 2>in because I feel like I'm one of the few

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<v Speaker 2>characters in the Wicked films who is not ever named,

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<v Speaker 2>like my Like, it's not the Bechdel test, but there

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<v Speaker 2>must be another like film sort of rubric where it's like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>if the character's not named, it's like if it's like

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<v Speaker 2>an under five, it's like there's an existential sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like lane that the kind of role exists in.

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<v Speaker 1>But you had a name in the credits. I did,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're not actually named in the dialogue of the movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you're saying and not going to? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's an ongoing debate as to how the name

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<v Speaker 2>is even pronounced. Oh, we shot it in the UK

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<v Speaker 2>and it was it was just Fanny there means pussy,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just it just kind of became a whole

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<v Speaker 2>people were just giggling, chortling. I'm sorry, it's the UK.

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<v Speaker 2>They were chortling on set. This is a character that

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<v Speaker 2>is that is suffused with like unseeriousness in every way,

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<v Speaker 2>which is great. Like I as a as A as

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<v Speaker 2>two comedians, I think we understand this.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw and loved the movie Wicked. I didn't know

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<v Speaker 1>your character's name and had to look at it.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go, so you so when you say you

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<v Speaker 2>know you may know him as Fanny, I had to

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<v Speaker 2>chortle myself. Have you guys talked about the etymology of

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<v Speaker 2>the word snafu. I've always been curious. Do you know

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<v Speaker 2>anything about where this word rich? Yeah, like well absolutely, yeah, okay, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a great word. So it's in fact, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a word at all. It's an acronym. It's it stands

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<v Speaker 2>for situation normal, all fucked up. It's a military.

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<v Speaker 1>Acronym and it basically just means when like everything is

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<v Speaker 1>everything's going wrong, which is you know a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>times in war and the soldiers in World War two,

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<v Speaker 1>uh just started using snaffoo. And then it's it's close

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<v Speaker 1>relative sibling. I might even say, is fubar fubar.

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<v Speaker 2>I know fubar, Yeah, but snafu really is really kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like folds into like I don't know the English

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<v Speaker 2>language quite well fo bars. Fubar is unwieldy and it

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<v Speaker 2>feels shoehorned in if you try to use it in

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<v Speaker 2>a sense, or it feels very like early aughts.

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<v Speaker 1>Snafu is like worked into the lexicon. We just say like, ah,

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<v Speaker 1>what a terrible snafoo, and we get it. We all

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<v Speaker 1>know what that is.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you a video game person?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not. I kind of wish I was, but I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay, Yeah, there's some there's a video game called

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<v Speaker 2>Chance of SNAr, but it's so stylized and super cool

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<v Speaker 2>and really simple and cheap. It's just you like going

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<v Speaker 2>up a tower, not unlike the Tower of Babble, where

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<v Speaker 2>you are just translating different languages that are like made

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<v Speaker 2>up and fictional to this universe. But you are kind

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<v Speaker 2>of just like joining together these different languages with different

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<v Speaker 2>syntaxes and different structures, and it all kind of I

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<v Speaker 2>think as a history buff you would like this as

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<v Speaker 2>someone who understands fundamentally that language limits our relational capacity

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<v Speaker 2>for whatever anything. Yes, between human beings. It is. I

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<v Speaker 2>think this is the right game for you.

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<v Speaker 1>This is so interesting because as you're describing it, I'm thinking, like,

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<v Speaker 1>this sounds so cool and interesting and amazing and also

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<v Speaker 1>not at all what I think of as gaming, right exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>And you're so right, by the way, because how often

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<v Speaker 1>have you befriended someone for whom English is a second language,

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<v Speaker 1>or tried to befriend someone where you can kind of

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<v Speaker 1>speak their language, felt like you're not getting your full

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<v Speaker 1>self across.

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<v Speaker 2>All the time. Basically, all of my family except my

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<v Speaker 2>parents and my sister are in China, and anytime we're together,

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<v Speaker 2>especially recently, they're just like, hey, You're like, people think

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<v Speaker 2>you're funny in America. I'm like, well, not everybody, but

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, but they're like, but what do you mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Because I'm not this, I'm not like the gregarious person

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<v Speaker 2>that I am in Mandarin, because they're like wait what

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<v Speaker 2>and so all the time. But also there are there are,

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<v Speaker 2>but then there are so many cases where there's a

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<v Speaker 2>language barrier, and then yet you still sort of get

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<v Speaker 2>the essential person of course, of.

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<v Speaker 1>Course, and of course it's so funny to me that

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<v Speaker 1>your family is like, wait, you're funny. What it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's some version of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hey, let's

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<v Speaker 1>dive into the snafu. Are you ready?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so okay?

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<v Speaker 1>All right, we have a doozy today. This one is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of fun and interesting. We're gonna play with bubbles today.

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<v Speaker 1>But we're not talking about soapy bubbles like you make

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<v Speaker 1>it a kid's birthday party. We're talking about economic bubbles,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's more interesting than it sounds.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, did the bubbles trickle down? No, I'm kidding, keep going,

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<v Speaker 2>They never do.

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<v Speaker 1>Just for listeners who may not be aware. An economic

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<v Speaker 1>bubble is when a product's price gets way over inflated

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<v Speaker 1>because everyone's convinced it's like the next big thing, and

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<v Speaker 1>they keep buying and selling it to make a quick

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<v Speaker 1>book and then pop. The bubble inevitably bursts because some

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<v Speaker 1>people start to catch on that the crazy price is

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<v Speaker 1>propped up not by the product's inherent value, but just

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<v Speaker 1>like fully, by vibes and fomo.

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<v Speaker 2>You've picked the worst person possible to discuss this with.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm with you. I'm so with you. But why

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't tell you a thing about just bubbles? Bubble like

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<v Speaker 2>financial matters financial anything. I couldn't even come up with

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<v Speaker 2>the word finance.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm the same way. No, really, I'm in the same

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<v Speaker 1>But fully, this is why you're even more perfect than

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<v Speaker 1>I hoped, because like you will bring a very genuine,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of open and curious mind to this. Because I

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<v Speaker 1>also there's parts of the math of this story that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, I'm not even gonna bother with that because

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<v Speaker 1>it's so confusing to me. Okay, what's fascinating about this one,

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<v Speaker 1>in particular is what the bubble was. We're going back

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<v Speaker 1>to the seventeenth century when the Dutch went mad, like

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<v Speaker 1>completely batshit crazy for tulips. Yes, the flower, which you

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<v Speaker 1>can buy at your local grocery store at one point

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<v Speaker 1>cost the same as a house a single flower. So

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<v Speaker 1>the story today is what historians call tulip mania. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a real thing. Now are you ready for this?

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<v Speaker 2>I am? But it never it never went away in

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<v Speaker 2>Hall in the Netherlands. It's these flammed Jersians still love

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<v Speaker 2>their tulips. But keep going, I'm so invested.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we dive into seventeenth century Dutch society, let's detour

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<v Speaker 1>for a quick tulip origin story. Tulips are native to

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<v Speaker 1>Central Asia, so we're talking like modern day Kazakhstan and

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<v Speaker 1>the surrounding regions, where they have been cultivated since the

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<v Speaker 1>eleventh century. The name comes from the Turkish turbent, meaning turbin,

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<v Speaker 1>a nod to their upward blooming, turban like petals. Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>tulips weren't just beautiful either. They carried a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>serious cultural weight in their native lands. In fact, they

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<v Speaker 1>were the official symbol of the Ottoman Empire under Suleman

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<v Speaker 1>the Magnificent, who ruled from fifteen twenty to fifteen sixty six.

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<v Speaker 1>In the fifteen fifties, European ambassadors in Constantinople took notice

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<v Speaker 1>of the flower, and this is when tulips spread to

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<v Speaker 1>European markets. By the fifteen nineties, they had reached the Netherlands.

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<v Speaker 1>And now this is right when the Dutch Republic was

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<v Speaker 1>entering its Golden Age, a time of crazy, booming trade

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<v Speaker 1>and artistic brilliance. Have you ever been to the Netherlands.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been to the Netherlands. I've somehow ended up in Amsterdam,

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<v Speaker 2>like like several times within like a couple years. I

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<v Speaker 2>can't say that I know it like the back of

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<v Speaker 2>my hand. I appreciate the culture of the place a

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<v Speaker 2>great deal. And I have a theory already about why

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<v Speaker 2>tulips kind of blew up, but I'll let you keep going.

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<v Speaker 1>Is because everyone does mushrooms in Amsterdam.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think it's because they're easy to draw, like

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<v Speaker 2>a child could draw. It's like thing what like a

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<v Speaker 2>cartoon flower is essentially.

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<v Speaker 1>So simple and gorgeous. We're broadening out a little bit now,

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<v Speaker 1>just into some more Dutch culture context. It's the golden

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<v Speaker 1>age for Dutch culture. And you're probably asking, well, how

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<v Speaker 1>did that come about? And I'm glad you asked, Bowen.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of it traces back to the Dutch East

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<v Speaker 1>India Company, which in sixteen oh two basically invented the

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<v Speaker 1>multinational corporation. Partnered with the government, it was meant to

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<v Speaker 1>safeguard trade in the Indian Ocean. If by safeguard you

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<v Speaker 1>mean like making deals, fighting battles, and committing massive international

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<v Speaker 1>atrocities on a massive scale, and generally acting like an

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<v Speaker 1>entire country version of a high school bully. It was

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<v Speaker 1>such a massive operation that in today's dollars it would

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<v Speaker 1>be like trillions. The value of this company was like

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<v Speaker 1>in the trillions which is hard to wrap your head around.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is like, there's only one trillion dollar company right

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<v Speaker 2>right now? Is it Apple? I think it's just Apple?

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<v Speaker 2>And wait, so what you did Ververmeir paint all of

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<v Speaker 2>his stuff? Like, that's to me, that's the golden Dutch

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<v Speaker 2>age in my book.

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<v Speaker 1>We're in the same zone.

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<v Speaker 2>We are, Okay then great, yeah, let's see girl with

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<v Speaker 2>the earing. I feel like, you know what all of

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<v Speaker 2>all of the Netherlands was like, we are cooking. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>let's go crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>Vermiir is part of that artistic boom that's that's happening

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time as this like massive financial and

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<v Speaker 1>cultural boom. It's like Maslov's hierarchy of needs, Like as

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<v Speaker 1>the country becomes increasingly wealthy, things like art and even

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<v Speaker 1>sciences they really flourish because there's just more people have

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<v Speaker 1>more time, and more and more interest in luxury. So

0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.920
<v Speaker 1>all of this activity the supercharged economy contributed to the

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<v Speaker 1>rise of a new urban business class comprised of merchants

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<v Speaker 1>and traders who came to dominate high society. While the

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<v Speaker 1>old rural nobility was getting pushed aside. The wealth gap

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<v Speaker 1>was still significant. It didn't disappear, but regular workers were

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<v Speaker 1>definitely doing a lot better and not quite like by

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<v Speaker 1>a yacht vibes, but definitely like maybe splurge on some

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<v Speaker 1>fancy cheese, say, for example. So enter into this cultural moment.

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<v Speaker 1>The tulip exotic, imported and just different enough to make

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<v Speaker 1>your neighbor low key jealous. Now Bowen, do you have

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<v Speaker 1>a taste for finer things?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the finer things are wasted on me, but

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<v Speaker 2>I try to I try to orient myself towards those things,

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<v Speaker 2>just just short of like being like really like obnoxious

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<v Speaker 2>and cloying about it. What's like a really us?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, it's funny. I don't really splurge

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<v Speaker 1>on stuff. I splurge on experiences. That's where I spend.

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<v Speaker 1>Tend to spend money, like things for my family to

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<v Speaker 1>do that are like exciting or cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever happens here, I hope no lives get lost, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think like what happens here has a great ending

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<v Speaker 2>and it was all worthwhile because tulips are beautiful and

0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.760
<v Speaker 2>it's an aesthetic thing. But it's like the modern day

0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.200
<v Speaker 2>thing where if like you know, NFTs or like little

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 2>dumb pictures of cartoon gorillas and like baseball caps somehow

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>where it was in like every single garden and park

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.520
<v Speaker 2>and forest of America, you know what I mean, Like

0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:13.160
<v Speaker 2>things that once seemed so so valuable that investors poured

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of money into. If they stick around, I

0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:18.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know if the bubble bursts, Like the best thing

0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.160
<v Speaker 2>that can happen is if they stick around and they

0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 2>are at least a lovely thing for people to look at.

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when a bubble burst, like the thing doesn't disappear.

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.600
<v Speaker 1>In my Snafu book, I did a chapter on the

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.560
<v Speaker 1>beanie baby bubble Yes, which was a very sort of

0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 1>famous version of this the bubble burst and people lost

0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.600
<v Speaker 1>a ton of money. It was very heartbreaking. But beanie

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 1>babies are still around. They're still cute. You can still

0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 1>buy them. So the Dutch tulip craze begins with a

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 1>botanist named Charles de le Cluse at the University of

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Leeden in the fifteen nineties. He cultivated meticulous tulip gardens

0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.480
<v Speaker 1>and in sixteen oh one published The History of Rare Plants,

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.520
<v Speaker 1>in which he obsessed over what are called broken tulips. Now,

0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.760
<v Speaker 1>these were the these are like the real show off tulips.

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Instead of a single color they had, they had like

0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.920
<v Speaker 1>these wild, flame like streaks in them. I think we

0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:22.359
<v Speaker 1>have a photo here.

0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Of a I think I'm familiar. Oh yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep,

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.640
<v Speaker 2>they are so yeah. This is uh, this is what

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.960
<v Speaker 2>is called a Viceroy bulb. Well, actually, I don't think

0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>this is the bulb. This is the this is the whole,

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.720
<v Speaker 2>This is the whole thing. This is a sprouted flower.

0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:46.520
<v Speaker 2>The bulb is what it grows from underground. I'm again

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 2>the wrong person to ask.

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 1>I feel very confident. I feel very confident about this.

0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:53.920
<v Speaker 2>I have confidence in you.

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you. Legend has it. Lecluse refused to sell

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.760
<v Speaker 1>his bulbs, which only made them more desirable. That's when

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 1>thieves broke into his garden and stole offshoot bulbs called offsets.

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.320
<v Speaker 1>It was these stolen bulbs that then allegedly kickstarted the

0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 1>tulip craze. It gets better. While visiting a Viennese aristocrat,

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 1>lit Close supposedly spotted a vase of lovely multicolored tulips,

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.600
<v Speaker 1>the kind he knew existed only in his own garden,

0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>And when he pressed this aristocrat, she denied everything and

0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 1>claimed she had no idea where they came from, which

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:37.240
<v Speaker 1>was like bold as hell and just complete horseshit right

0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>and just audacious.

0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I would never have the guts. I just don't have

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.240
<v Speaker 2>it in me. I'm just so non confrontational.

0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Wait to steal something to begin with, or to like

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.520
<v Speaker 1>ostentatiously display something that you stolen.

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 2>No, just to do the cluse thing of calling someone out.

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm telling the world you can

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 2>come and steal me for all I am worth, and

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I will not do a thing about it.

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Just to avoid the awkwardness I am there. I don't

0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.920
<v Speaker 1>want to get into that. Yeah, it's like, eh, because

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:14.560
<v Speaker 1>like if I call you out, then there'll be a

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 1>whole back and forth and like you might get mad

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 1>and you'll it's like you'll probably feel ashamed, and then

0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.680
<v Speaker 1>that'll transform into rage and then we're just in as

0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 1>like terribly.

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Weird place exactly, And can't we all just be friends

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.600
<v Speaker 2>even after you've stolen from me? That's all I want.

0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 1>So before long, Dulips graduated from nice little garden accent

0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:41.720
<v Speaker 1>to full on status symbol, so actual value no longer matter.

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.480
<v Speaker 1>This was simply about prestige, spectacle, and the of course

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 1>deeply human tradition of obsessively comparing yourself to your neighbors.

0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.960
<v Speaker 1>It's now sixteen thirty four. I don't do that, by

0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:53.800
<v Speaker 1>the way, I don't know if you.

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Do comparing yourself to neighbors specific you're your neighbors specific.

0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean neighbors in the sense of like, of course

0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 1>the little about it, Yeah, like whatever neighbor might mean.

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.360
<v Speaker 1>It's so funny. We operate in a career that is

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 1>very disconcerting because I'm taking a detour for a second,

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.320
<v Speaker 1>the world in which we move in this show business world,

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.120
<v Speaker 1>it's obviously very status driven, but it's also like there

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.240
<v Speaker 1>are so many metrics that are so literal as to

0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.920
<v Speaker 1>like that other people can try to like assess your

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 1>value and rank you. And sometimes it's you know, it

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 1>used to be things like what's your most recent box

0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:40.120
<v Speaker 1>office opening number? Or now IMDb has literally has a

0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:46.879
<v Speaker 1>star meter that ranks the whatever the starness of someone is.

0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:52.440
<v Speaker 1>But I've always found that so bizarre and like, mind

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 1>fucky about the business that we're in. Nice little sidebar,

0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:02.800
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna cut all that. No, those are the best moments.

0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:08.879
<v Speaker 1>So it's now sixteen thirty four, and things are heating up,

0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Speculators pile in prices go nuts, and suddenly everybody wants

0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.480
<v Speaker 1>the aforementioned broken bulbs. These, of course, were prized because

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:22.560
<v Speaker 1>they could produce even more rare, flashier offspring the offset

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 1>bulbs we mentioned before, So owning one was like owning

0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.439
<v Speaker 1>a racehorse, like if it's a winner, that's great, but

0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 1>if it breeds more winners, congrats. You're basically running like

0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.679
<v Speaker 1>a seventeenth century tulip startup. What's interesting is that we

0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.919
<v Speaker 1>learned later through science that the reason these these flamy,

0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 1>these tulips had this kind of like fiery appearance with

0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:50.640
<v Speaker 1>multiple colors was because of a virus and off their

0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.679
<v Speaker 1>offset bulbs are increasingly weak, and eventually they get to

0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.880
<v Speaker 1>the point where they can't even flower. So they it's

0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.679
<v Speaker 1>it's just a sort of delicious irony that they have

0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 1>diminishing returns over time.

0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:03.840
<v Speaker 2>That's what happens with the inbreeding.

0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:08.520
<v Speaker 1>It's exactly right, the habsburg chin.

0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Or no, it's just the whole face.

0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:18.200
<v Speaker 1>I think package package. Are there any fads that you've

0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.600
<v Speaker 1>just like fully fallen into or for well, now.

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I feel like, okay, I feel like in this day

0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.200
<v Speaker 2>if a fad pops off, there are about a million

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:36.600
<v Speaker 2>people behind the scenes or forces algorithmic or economic or

0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:42.200
<v Speaker 2>whatever that are like ensuring its sustainability or success or whatever,

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.720
<v Speaker 2>like well into infinity. I think right like La Boo

0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.480
<v Speaker 2>boos popped off last summer, and now I feel like

0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.520
<v Speaker 2>every single person across like up and down the sort

0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.560
<v Speaker 2>of like pop mark chain or whatever, is like there

0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.200
<v Speaker 2>are teams of people being like, this is our strategy

0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.800
<v Speaker 2>for how to make sure these are ubiquitous wherever we're

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 2>coming up the movie, we're coming out with the clothes

0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and we're coming out. It's like there's fat fads. Are fads?

0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Are people try to like freeze them in amber? There

0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.119
<v Speaker 2>are there are ways and means to freeze them in amber.

0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Now I think so anyway, that's not answering your question.

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 2>To answer your question, of course, I fell for bos.

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I felt right off thousand boos. Yes, there's at least

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.879
<v Speaker 2>there are two in my kitchen of all places. Terrible

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.240
<v Speaker 2>place to keep them. Why are they their furry They're

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.720
<v Speaker 2>they're they're going to catch something crumbs, you know, you know, uh,

0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.720
<v Speaker 2>let's see fire on fire. They are dangerously true story.

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 1>Class that is a synthetic fur. I don't know what.

0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:48.399
<v Speaker 2>It's probably mine mine or minor human hair. I know

0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.360
<v Speaker 2>my every fat. I'm playing this Pokemon game right now.

0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.679
<v Speaker 2>That is like all over the internet. I'm looking at

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.320
<v Speaker 2>Lisa Frank stickers right now. I would call those a fad.

0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.520
<v Speaker 2>There's a great documentary about how what is that? To Frank?

0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:01.560
<v Speaker 2>You don't know at least a Frank?

0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Wait, do I what is that?

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.840
<v Speaker 2>These are? These are big in like the nineties and aunts.

0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.960
<v Speaker 2>These more on every single like space saver binder backpack

0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 2>in the late nineties, early ats anyway, and.

0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.080
<v Speaker 1>You have a fresh path, like right there on your desk,

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm scared. But when I'm worried that that like right

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>off camera there's like towering stuff like everything that you've

0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.399
<v Speaker 1>bought off of infomercials and like la boo boos and

0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.679
<v Speaker 1>that that that one false move and it's gonna collapse

0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.240
<v Speaker 1>and we're gonna have to like call an ambulance to

0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 1>get you out.

0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>This is my audition for hoarders, and this is that's

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 2>my gifting closet. Everyone has some structural thing where it's

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:44.879
<v Speaker 2>just a bunch of crap and you're like, I'm gonna give.

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna like a hand this off to like the

0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:48.919
<v Speaker 2>next person who comes to my house and like, I

0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 2>feel like should leave with something.

0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Amen. I wish, I wish I had a gifting closet.

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 1>I take one thing from this, It's that I need

0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.240
<v Speaker 1>a gifting closet because there are a lot of times

0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.080
<v Speaker 1>you're walking out of the door like a fuck, I

0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>need a bottle of wine.

0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 1>So, how much were these tulips actually selling for? I

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.720
<v Speaker 1>don't know if you passed econ one on one in college.

0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.199
<v Speaker 1>I did not. But I think it's important that we

0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 1>established some basic facts about the Dutch economy during the

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age before we get into the hard data of

0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:25.120
<v Speaker 1>tulip Mania. So quick shout out to author and historian

0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Mike Dash who wrote a fascinating book about the tulip

0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 1>craze called tulipo Mania. He actually starts off the book

0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.760
<v Speaker 1>with a bit of a financial primer on Dutch currency

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:37.760
<v Speaker 1>from the era. I'm not going to get too deep

0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.840
<v Speaker 1>into the weeds here on Dutch currency of the seventeen ears,

0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.320
<v Speaker 1>but suffice to say, until the early nineteenth century, the

0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:50.280
<v Speaker 1>basic unit of currency there was called a gilder. Now

0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.600
<v Speaker 1>as for what that's worth today. It's kind of fuzzy.

0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:56.639
<v Speaker 1>It's hard to compare value of things from so far back,

0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.480
<v Speaker 1>but some estimates say one guilder might be equal to

0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.400
<v Speaker 1>about ten dollars. Others go much bigger, suggesting that one

0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.520
<v Speaker 1>guilder could be worth as much as sixty dollars anyway

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.600
<v Speaker 1>you slice it. Flowers were selling for too much money.

0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 1>So now that we have that little bit of context,

0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 1>these numbers am about to spew it, you might actually

0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.960
<v Speaker 1>make some sense. So tulip prices they didn't just rise,

0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:22.720
<v Speaker 1>they rocketed, according to the Amsterdam Tulip Museum, which is

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.040
<v Speaker 1>that's not a bit, that's a real place, and you're

0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.840
<v Speaker 1>going next time you go to amberam I've never been.

0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.119
<v Speaker 1>I've been to Amsterdam. I cannot believe I've been. I

0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:33.719
<v Speaker 1>have been all over the world and I've never been

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:34.359
<v Speaker 1>to Amsterdam.

0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.440
<v Speaker 2>And it's a comedy town. Like there's a dollar there.

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:39.280
<v Speaker 2>It's oh, it's wonderful, you'd love it.

0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.440
<v Speaker 1>I know. I'm so excited to go, and it's it's

0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 1>at this point in my life. It's going to be

0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.199
<v Speaker 1>a family trip, and I'm I'm fine with that.

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:48.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a perfect family trip. It's great for everybody.

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:53.280
<v Speaker 1>According to the Amsterdam Tulip Museum, a single bulb sold

0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:56.480
<v Speaker 1>one day for forty six guilders, then changed hands a

0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:59.639
<v Speaker 1>month later for five hundred and fifteen guilders. Another bulb

0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:02.760
<v Speaker 1>row from ninety five to nine hundred guilders in a

0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:06.480
<v Speaker 1>similar period of time. Now you're like gilders, what okay?

0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.280
<v Speaker 1>What all you have to know is that in both

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:13.680
<v Speaker 1>cases we're talking about a roughly one thousand percent increase

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.080
<v Speaker 1>in price. Some records indicate that the priciest sale was

0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:23.160
<v Speaker 1>for ten thousand guilders in sixteen thirty six ish sixteen

0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:28.640
<v Speaker 1>thirty seven, which translates to well over six hundred thousand dollars.

0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.199
<v Speaker 4>Today one bulb, not even not even the sprouted flower,

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:36.600
<v Speaker 4>for a single tulip bulb, Now this is a time.

0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:39.439
<v Speaker 4>That kind of money could buy you an entire house.

0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.160
<v Speaker 4>Of course, you brought up Vermer earlier. Here's a fun

0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.560
<v Speaker 4>comparison for you. Rim Brand painted his masterpiece of the

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:52.440
<v Speaker 4>night Watch for about sixteen hundred guilders, meaning you could

0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:55.600
<v Speaker 4>have traded one tulip bulb for three rim Brands.

0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Seems fair, yeah, I mean seems fair to me. That's

0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:02.600
<v Speaker 2>crazy it's that's nuts.

0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:05.359
<v Speaker 1>How do you think people justified this to themselves? Like,

0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you like we talked a little

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 1>bit about sort of falling for fads here and there,

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 1>but like when when you're in a real bubble like this,

0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:17.960
<v Speaker 1>and there are modern examples like crypto and so forth.

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I think what's fascinating about this kind of situation is that,

0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:24.680
<v Speaker 1>like if you buy a tool of bulb in the

0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Netherlands in the sixteen hundreds and then suddenly it's worth

0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.880
<v Speaker 1>like ten times what you bought it for, you don't

0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:34.679
<v Speaker 1>think you're in a bubble. You just think you're in

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.560
<v Speaker 1>You just think you're in this like financially advantageous situation,

0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:40.800
<v Speaker 1>of course, And that I think is what is like

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.959
<v Speaker 1>such a trap and why bubbles just keep happening over

0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 1>and over again. It's because they're almost impossible to perceive

0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:49.160
<v Speaker 1>when you're in them.

0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>When you're in them, it feels like it is always

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>the exception. Probably. There's a great book called Status in

0:25:56.320 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Culture by this guy named W. David Marx. He says

0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that what dictates culture and especially like pre Internet, was

0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:09.400
<v Speaker 2>markers of status, right, and so like in an economy

0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:13.120
<v Speaker 2>where you're describing like in the Netherlands, like even like

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:16.199
<v Speaker 2>the quote unquote lower classes like had spending power, like

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:19.239
<v Speaker 2>it just drives up the price of something as like

0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.719
<v Speaker 2>what seems as trivial, as like a flower, or as

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:24.879
<v Speaker 2>like fragile, not even trivia, but it's like fragile, Like

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.480
<v Speaker 2>there's a bulb like could sprout, it could not, like

0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:30.159
<v Speaker 2>you're really it's kind of a gamble like but basically

0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:33.399
<v Speaker 2>like you can buy that. Your people are buying this

0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.480
<v Speaker 2>up because it is, as you were saying earlier, a

0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:40.600
<v Speaker 2>status marker where they are trying to then like it's

0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 2>it's like buying like I don't know whatever I see.

0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:45.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm so I'm so out of touch now like whatever

0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:49.320
<v Speaker 2>the cool like pant is or whatever or you know,

0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>or let's just say Rolex. It's just like that is

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.880
<v Speaker 2>a marker of status. I need to emulate this kind

0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.879
<v Speaker 2>of I don't know, status mobility, and therefore I need

0:26:59.920 --> 0:27:02.240
<v Speaker 2>to buy this thing and then show to my neighbors

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>that I have it.

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, But that's that explained. I mean it sounds yeah.

0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:08.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean we're talking about it now like hundreds of

0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:11.240
<v Speaker 2>years later, being like isn't that so crazy? But you're right.

0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.640
<v Speaker 2>It's like when you're in the bubble. It is imperceptible

0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:16.760
<v Speaker 2>because you think it is always you always think that

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:19.600
<v Speaker 2>you are the unicorn. It's the self selection bias like this,

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 2>it's different this time.

0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that it's gonna just going to stay this way.

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:26.639
<v Speaker 1>The market's going to stay the way that it is. Okay.

0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:29.639
<v Speaker 1>So this is one of my favorite examples of the

0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:32.639
<v Speaker 1>absurdity of these deals that were going down. So according

0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:36.359
<v Speaker 1>to historian Mike Dash, one of the highest exchanges for

0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:41.439
<v Speaker 1>one Toulip speculator came in a magnificently lopsided load for

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 1>one Viceroy bulb like the one that we saw earlier.

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:49.960
<v Speaker 1>The seller received the following two loads of wheat, two

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:54.040
<v Speaker 1>loads of rye for fat oxen, and yes, it was

0:27:54.240 --> 0:27:59.160
<v Speaker 1>specified that the oxen had to be fat. Eight fat pigs,

0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:03.359
<v Speaker 1>twelve sheep, two hogsheads of wine, four barrels of beer,

0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:07.720
<v Speaker 1>two barrels of butter, a thousand pounds of cheese, a

0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:13.120
<v Speaker 1>complete bed, a suit of clothes, and a silver beaker.

0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Huh yeah, this.

0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:18.879
<v Speaker 2>Is so Oregon Trail, like yeah right, yeah, you had

0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:20.920
<v Speaker 2>to like barter with all your stuff to like get

0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:24.320
<v Speaker 2>like I don't know bread and food or medicine, but like,

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:27.640
<v Speaker 2>for for one, what was it the viceroy bulb? It's

0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:28.600
<v Speaker 2>pretty though.

0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:31.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is a pretty flower, that's for sure.

0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Flower. It's lopsided because it's because that was like that

0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 2>was the value of the of the one bulb?

0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Like is that that is an actual contract? Was the

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:43.360
<v Speaker 1>exchange of those items for one viceroy bulb?

0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Holy moly?

0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 1>What I What I love about that list is that

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, back in the day, like there was so

0:28:49.400 --> 0:28:53.160
<v Speaker 1>much bartering of goods, livestock and things like. None of

0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 1>that is very surprising. It's it sort of sounds like

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:58.800
<v Speaker 1>a pretty conventional deal of the the sixteen hundreds, like

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:02.880
<v Speaker 1>you said, Oregon rail vibes. But where it gets weird

0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:06.080
<v Speaker 1>for me is when suddenly like they're adding in a

0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:10.680
<v Speaker 1>bed and then a full suit of clothes, and I'm

0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:13.920
<v Speaker 1>just like, whoever's selling this bulb really needs a fresh

0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:17.480
<v Speaker 1>start in their arm. I needs, Like that's what they're

0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:20.640
<v Speaker 1>that's they're getting. They're getting a ton of butter and

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.160
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of and like she and then all these

0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:26.320
<v Speaker 1>this live stock, Like this is enough to build a life.

0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 1>You get a bed, a suit of clothes.

0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:31.200
<v Speaker 2>Like or they were taking in or the person with

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:33.520
<v Speaker 2>the bulb was taking in like a street urchin, and

0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 2>they were like, oh, we'll need an extra bed and

0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:38.520
<v Speaker 2>fresh clothes for this person we're taking.

0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 4>Into pounds of cheese and a thousands.

0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:46.120
<v Speaker 2>Well that's just for personally, is that's just for them

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 2>to sort of com throughout.

0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>All right. So in eighteen forty one, Scottish author Charles

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 1>McKay wrote a book called Extraordinary, Very Popular Delusions and

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:05.640
<v Speaker 1>the Madness of Crowds, which featured a number of stories

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:10.080
<v Speaker 1>about the tulip mania and full disclosure. Some of these

0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:12.640
<v Speaker 1>stories are thought to be apocryphal, but in one of

0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:15.720
<v Speaker 1>the tales, there's a great story of a seaman who

0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:18.440
<v Speaker 1>was visiting the house of a wealthy merchant. The merchant

0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:21.320
<v Speaker 1>offered him a breakfast of fine red herring, and the

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:24.520
<v Speaker 1>semen then spotted what he assumed was an onion lying

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:26.760
<v Speaker 1>nearby and thought, oh, perfect, this will really elevate the

0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:30.760
<v Speaker 1>fancy fish situation. So he picked it up and crumbled

0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:35.880
<v Speaker 1>it over his yummy fishy meal, and he enjoyed it thoroughly,

0:30:36.000 --> 0:30:39.960
<v Speaker 1>presumably feeling quite pleased with his culinary instincts. Unfortunately, It

0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:42.160
<v Speaker 1>was not an onion, as you have probably guessed. It

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:44.480
<v Speaker 1>was a tulip bulb, but not just any toolip bulb.

0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:48.320
<v Speaker 1>It was a Simper Augustus bulb, one of the most

0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:52.240
<v Speaker 1>prized and expensive varieties in existence. So the seaman had

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 1>just enjoyed his breakfast with a one million dollar flower.

0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's on the guy for leaving the buld out

0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:05.320
<v Speaker 2>in the open, victim blaming, But that's that's just what

0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 2>it reaks.

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:09.600
<v Speaker 1>You're right, if it's like a million dollar bulb, like

0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:13.680
<v Speaker 1>you put it some put it on a shelf somewhere something.

0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Right before you're like, oh, let me get the red

0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>herring for you, just make sure like your personal effects

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:23.680
<v Speaker 2>were like tucked away and like put put that in

0:31:23.720 --> 0:31:26.280
<v Speaker 2>the safe. What are you doing leaving the bulldout?

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Come on?

0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 2>Hide them up?

0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't it be funny to just eat a million dollars totally?

0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>But like like what just pure cash like and like

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:36.600
<v Speaker 2>what like.

0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.840
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, like what if you were somebody's house and

0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 1>they just had like a million dollars sitting out like

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.400
<v Speaker 1>since these things were status symbols, like maybe this maybe

0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:46.800
<v Speaker 1>the merchant was like you know, like leaving it out

0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>as a sort of like a flex but if you

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 1>were at somebody's house and they just left out a

0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 1>big stack of a million dollars and you were just like,

0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, skully eat it. I'll just poor some

0:31:57.000 --> 0:31:59.560
<v Speaker 1>maple syrup on that, and just started eating it all right.

0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:02.720
<v Speaker 1>So now interesting to note a lot of these deals

0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:06.480
<v Speaker 1>went down in local Dutch taverns of all places, which

0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:11.840
<v Speaker 1>turned them into basically little tulip brokerages. Drinks flowed, prices climbed,

0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 1>and the rights to a single tulip bulb could change

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:19.240
<v Speaker 1>hands ten times in a day, which is impressive considering

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:23.640
<v Speaker 1>no one actually saw the bulbs in most cases, so

0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:26.040
<v Speaker 1>this is a huge twist. A lot of the time

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:30.959
<v Speaker 1>they weren't trading actual bulbs. The tulips themselves were still

0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:34.200
<v Speaker 1>sitting peacefully in the ground, often in Harlem, which is

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:38.040
<v Speaker 1>a town west of Amsterdam which has really ideal conditions

0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 1>for rearing tulips. Apparently, so what people were buying and

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:48.000
<v Speaker 1>selling were essentially IOUs or future contracts for a flower

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:51.240
<v Speaker 1>that hadn't even bloomed yet. So you'd spend a small

0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:53.320
<v Speaker 1>fortune on something you couldn't see, you couldn't touch, you

0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:57.720
<v Speaker 1>couldn't even verify other than just like you know that

0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:00.160
<v Speaker 1>this is someone that you knew in your town, that

0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:02.840
<v Speaker 1>they would be accountable, all in the hope that when

0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:06.800
<v Speaker 1>it finally bloomed, it would be this absolutely fabulous thing,

0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>which seems kind of bad shit. This is sort of

0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:13.720
<v Speaker 1>like the origin of futures trading, which is a whole

0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:16.320
<v Speaker 1>other thing. I don't quite understand me neither.

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:22.120
<v Speaker 2>That's why I always say flowers up front. I always

0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:26.560
<v Speaker 2>go into my deals saying, flowers, cash, whatever it has.

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm not. I can't. I can't be like speculative about

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:31.640
<v Speaker 2>any of this. I can't be poreful.

0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Every time you go I've seen you in a flower

0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:38.720
<v Speaker 1>shop and you were not fucking around it is. I'm

0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:41.800
<v Speaker 1>just like, no, now, I am not. This is not

0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:45.560
<v Speaker 1>a down payment. This is I want to be walking

0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:47.240
<v Speaker 1>out of here with flower And they're like, but when

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:49.320
<v Speaker 1>that's how it works, we give you the flowers right now,

0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:52.840
<v Speaker 1>and you're like, no, I would insist on, and they're like, yeah,

0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:54.360
<v Speaker 1>that's what we're doing. We're gonna give it to you.

0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Don't worry exactly. Thank you are you are your flowers guy.

0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Ed. I'm sort of like a fan of botany in general.

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:04.240
<v Speaker 1>But I don't. I'm not a big gardener.

0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't I d them. I can't. I can't look

0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 2>at a flyer and be like, oh, that's a you know,

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:13.240
<v Speaker 2>vernunculous or whatever. You know. But people, people are really

0:34:13.320 --> 0:34:16.120
<v Speaker 2>people are really like that best gift anyone's ever gotten

0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:20.640
<v Speaker 2>me speaking of gifts from earlier local flower shop, like

0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 2>weekly subscription drop off thing and I and this was

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:25.920
<v Speaker 2>this happened like three years ago, and I still I

0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:28.560
<v Speaker 2>love these flowers so much of this florist in Brooklyn

0:34:28.560 --> 0:34:32.680
<v Speaker 2>outline florals that I still pay every week to get

0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:35.319
<v Speaker 2>like a weekly flower bouquet that is like so like

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:40.360
<v Speaker 2>delicately curated. It's not like this big, like huge bouquet

0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:43.359
<v Speaker 2>of ase. It's like a little arrangement that like is

0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:45.560
<v Speaker 2>just at my door every Saturday, and it's like the

0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 2>highlight of my week. And I just this is why

0:34:48.960 --> 0:34:50.799
<v Speaker 2>I like I now, because like, as you're telling the story,

0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:54.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I get a tulips are tulips are beautiful.

0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:58.080
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't pay eight fat pigs for it, but I

0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:00.760
<v Speaker 2>would pay I would pay somebody. There's still pretty expensive.

0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:04.760
<v Speaker 1>I love this. Oh and this is such a beauty.

0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:11.040
<v Speaker 1>What you're describing sounds so lovely, such a just a

0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:14.360
<v Speaker 1>such a nice way to sort of treat yourself to

0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:19.120
<v Speaker 1>beauty in the world, like on a regular basis, and

0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 1>to be reminded of beauty and to be reminded they like.

0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:26.160
<v Speaker 1>It's it's like a sensory it's not just visual beauty.

0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:29.720
<v Speaker 1>They smell beautiful and it someone has put care into

0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:33.160
<v Speaker 1>this presentation for you and it's in your space now

0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:37.759
<v Speaker 1>and that's it has such a lovely, lovely thing. A

0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:39.720
<v Speaker 1>bouquet subscription.

0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:42.520
<v Speaker 2>But like a lot of like the big box, like

0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:46.680
<v Speaker 2>local even better, this is local. Yes, yes, yes, not

0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the first person to say it's but like their nature's

0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:51.000
<v Speaker 2>little fireworks and you can look at them for longer.

0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:51.719
<v Speaker 2>It's it's great.

0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I love that. So in this case, they weren't

0:35:56.280 --> 0:35:58.919
<v Speaker 1>actually trading flowers. A lot of the time. They were

0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:04.239
<v Speaker 1>just trading these sort of promisory notes, which does get crazy.

0:36:04.080 --> 0:36:08.880
<v Speaker 1>They were very cynical transactions, just about sort of making

0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:11.200
<v Speaker 1>money was all it was about. It wasn't even about

0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:15.640
<v Speaker 1>the beauty of tulips. At a certain point. Eustis Lipsius

0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:21.160
<v Speaker 1>was a Dutch philosopher. He said, quote, what should I

0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:24.600
<v Speaker 1>call this but a kind of merry madness? They do

0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:29.600
<v Speaker 1>vaingloriously hunt after strange herbs and flowers, which, having gotten,

0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:32.840
<v Speaker 1>they preserve and cherish more carefully than any mother, doth

0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:33.640
<v Speaker 1>or child.

0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh vinglorious. What an underused word. Let's bring it up back.

0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 1>I know you're right. It's sort of two words smashed

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:46.800
<v Speaker 1>together and it means something else perfect. A frustrated botanist

0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:51.280
<v Speaker 1>at Leiden University by the name of Evrard Forstius stated

0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>that if he saw a wild tulip, he would quote

0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:56.960
<v Speaker 1>attack it furiously with his stick. I think at this

0:36:56.960 --> 0:37:00.400
<v Speaker 1>point people are starting to resent tulips because they're creating

0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:03.000
<v Speaker 1>such merry madness all around.

0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:04.200
<v Speaker 2>At least it's Mary.

0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:07.319
<v Speaker 1>What is like a merry madness in this moment? Would

0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 1>you say like swifties or like a marry Like Like

0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:12.960
<v Speaker 1>to me, a merry madness is like benign, like it's

0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:16.160
<v Speaker 1>not you know, you might in this case the tulip bubble,

0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:20.359
<v Speaker 1>like people lost money, but it wasn't like you know,

0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:21.719
<v Speaker 1>already died.

0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I think a Mary madness now is like a heated

0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 2>rivalry situation where it's like, oh, how lovely likes it's

0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.279
<v Speaker 2>nice because people love it. It's like appeals to all

0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 2>sectors somehow, somehow it's like a four quadrant thing, where

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:38.320
<v Speaker 2>like heterosexual manner watching this, going wow, this is really touching,

0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:42.879
<v Speaker 2>and then and then women of all persuasions are like,

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:46.960
<v Speaker 2>this is the most emotion and arousal I felt in

0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:50.760
<v Speaker 2>my whole life. So I think it really it runs

0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:54.080
<v Speaker 2>the gamut on merrymant, I should say, and therefore it

0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:55.879
<v Speaker 2>is a kind of but people are a little bit

0:37:56.239 --> 0:37:58.080
<v Speaker 2>frenzied about it in a way that is a little

0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:01.239
<v Speaker 2>like confounded and confusing in skins and mad and so

0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that is probably the closest current example that

0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:04.799
<v Speaker 2>I have.

0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:10.480
<v Speaker 1>So like all bubbles, this one finally popped in February

0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:14.000
<v Speaker 1>of sixteen thirty seven, And this is where myth in fact,

0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:18.239
<v Speaker 1>can't exactly agree on what went down. Some say too

0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:21.520
<v Speaker 1>many speculators tried to sell at once, clogging the market

0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:26.760
<v Speaker 1>and evaporating demand. Others point to a plague outbreak, dampening

0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:32.240
<v Speaker 1>people's enthusiasm for luxury flower gambling, which you know fair

0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:36.840
<v Speaker 1>if there's if you know there's a pandemic, you're not

0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 1>going to be into the nice things for a minute,

0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:42.560
<v Speaker 1>and then there's a theory I love this one that

0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:47.359
<v Speaker 1>a few buyers actually went out to Harlem, this this

0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:50.920
<v Speaker 1>town where a lot of the tulips were cultivated, and

0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:55.880
<v Speaker 1>they saw fields of tulips and they had this devastating

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:59.800
<v Speaker 1>realization like, oh shit, there's a lot of these and

0:38:59.840 --> 0:39:06.200
<v Speaker 1>they just grow. This is not this is probably not

0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:09.680
<v Speaker 1>a thing we can we can we can't count on

0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:12.719
<v Speaker 1>scarcity driven pricing for very long here.

0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:17.080
<v Speaker 1>So but whatever the actual cause, it's reported that bulbs

0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 1>were suddenly trading at one percent of the value from

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 1>even just six months prior. Allegedly, the Dutch government tried

0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:27.200
<v Speaker 1>to intervene, offering ten percent of the value on bulb

0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:30.919
<v Speaker 1>contracts to help stabilize the market, but that wasn't even

0:39:31.040 --> 0:39:34.560
<v Speaker 1>enough to save it. Whatever the exact trigger, tulipmania was

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:37.800
<v Speaker 1>officially squashed, and I imagine a lot of people felt

0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:42.719
<v Speaker 1>quite foolish when they woke up from their tulip fever dream.

0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, what was the full span of tulipmania? Sixteen?

0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:51.200
<v Speaker 2>It started in what year? In the end at sixteen

0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:52.920
<v Speaker 2>forty two, you said, or thirty.

0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:56.520
<v Speaker 1>Two, So that's a good question. The I think the

0:39:56.680 --> 0:39:59.640
<v Speaker 1>interest in tulips and sort of the rise of tulips

0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:03.640
<v Speaker 1>as a cultural phenomenon took place through the early like

0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:06.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, le Clues, who we mentioned earlier, was in

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the fifteen nineties, so it was sort of starting to

0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:14.640
<v Speaker 1>become a fad through the early sixteen hundreds, and then

0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:19.800
<v Speaker 1>we're hitting peak tulip mania in the mid sixteen thirties.

0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Got it. I think I kind of I'm willing to

0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:28.320
<v Speaker 2>believe this Harlem story where they saw the fields of tulips,

0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:31.799
<v Speaker 2>because because it's just an example of like supplying Deman

0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:35.279
<v Speaker 2>going like the complete opposite direction so quickly that of

0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:38.839
<v Speaker 2>course the value drops immediately right where it's like there's

0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:43.279
<v Speaker 2>so much of these fucking flowers, and also nobody wants

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:46.400
<v Speaker 2>them anymore so and not just kind of kills it

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 2>immediately like that that kind of screeches it too.

0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:52.440
<v Speaker 1>A hault. Yeah, it's also a kind of I'd like

0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:57.120
<v Speaker 1>that story too, because it's it's just so funny, how

0:40:57.400 --> 0:41:00.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, in some sense, a bubble, like this actual

0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:03.680
<v Speaker 1>bubble is a denial of reality. You know, it's a denial.

0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:08.080
<v Speaker 1>It's a denial of of like it's it's just describing

0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:13.360
<v Speaker 1>a crazy amount of value onto something and the reveal

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:17.480
<v Speaker 1>that there's just these sprawling fields with them. It's such

0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:21.960
<v Speaker 1>a delicious visual to be like, no, you fucking idiots,

0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:28.600
<v Speaker 1>it's just a plant, It's a plant. I love that amazing. Yeah,

0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:31.440
<v Speaker 1>this is that's that is the story of tulip mania

0:41:31.480 --> 0:41:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Bowen Yang. I'm so glad I was able to share

0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:36.360
<v Speaker 1>this with you and reflect on it with you. Do

0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:40.360
<v Speaker 1>you have any other like crazy insights or takeaways from

0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:41.080
<v Speaker 1>from this?

0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:44.399
<v Speaker 2>You were so thorough as you always are. I have

0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to just say, panic said and when you when you

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:49.279
<v Speaker 2>start talking about economic bubbles, I was like, wow, this

0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:53.080
<v Speaker 2>is so this is so wrong for me. I'm I'm

0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:55.200
<v Speaker 2>this I'm going to be such a letdown, And I

0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:58.120
<v Speaker 2>think this was This ended up being a wonderful, insightful conversation.

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.160
<v Speaker 2>So this just well, thank you for think you're stewarding though.

0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:05.839
<v Speaker 1>Amen, then thanks just for bringing your curiosity to it.

0:42:06.080 --> 0:42:09.400
<v Speaker 1>I have to say I love these stories. I love history.

0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:12.440
<v Speaker 1>I love just the rabbit hole of these specific incidents

0:42:12.480 --> 0:42:15.960
<v Speaker 1>throughout history. But what I really love about this podcast

0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:20.400
<v Speaker 1>is just the curiosity and the little sort of side

0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:24.320
<v Speaker 1>turns and eddy swirls that we get into with wonderful

0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:28.920
<v Speaker 1>guests like you, and so many of the ideas and

0:42:29.080 --> 0:42:32.520
<v Speaker 1>bits and whatever that bubble up and reflections. I think

0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:35.640
<v Speaker 1>we touched on some very meaningful kind of human behavioral

0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:40.279
<v Speaker 1>ideas throughout this episode as well, and I really appreciate that.

0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Ed helms you, gentlemen and scholar. I think you would

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:45.520
<v Speaker 2>really like this book. I think you would really like

0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Status and Culture by W. David Marx. It's like it's

0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:52.160
<v Speaker 2>very like these these are the terms, this is what happens.

0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.600
<v Speaker 2>It's very like cut and dry. But as you're reading,

0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:57.600
<v Speaker 2>as you're reading everything, you're like, WHOA, Like this is

0:42:57.680 --> 0:42:59.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of how things are set up, like kind of

0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:04.120
<v Speaker 2>out exception, like all throughout I don't know, not human history,

0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.200
<v Speaker 2>but just just in terms of like how things are

0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:10.319
<v Speaker 2>sort of like positioned as like status topics, and how

0:43:10.360 --> 0:43:13.840
<v Speaker 2>that informs like the wider culture of like the arts

0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and sports and like all of these different things.

0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Bowon Yang, thank you so much for being on Snaffoo.

0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:20.720
<v Speaker 1>This was a god damn delight.

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me on.

0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Oh hey men, Yes, indeed, of course. Snafu is a

0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:31.800
<v Speaker 1>production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffo Media, a partnership between

0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:35.880
<v Speaker 1>Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Post production

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:39.840
<v Speaker 1>and creative support from good Egg Audio. Our executive producers

0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:43.680
<v Speaker 1>are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim,

0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:47.640
<v Speaker 1>and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino

0:43:47.760 --> 0:43:51.879
<v Speaker 1>and Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our

0:43:52.000 --> 0:43:55.839
<v Speaker 1>video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from

0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative

0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:07.920
<v Speaker 1>and The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan

0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn,

0:44:12.880 --> 0:44:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Lane Kleine and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson,

0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:21.319
<v Speaker 1>Kerry Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't

0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:24.440
<v Speaker 1>forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo,

0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:28.240
<v Speaker 1>The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available

0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:32.520
<v Speaker 1>now from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook

0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:39.680
<v Speaker 1>dot com. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.