WEBVTT - Abandoned by a Narcissistic Father with Dr. Lily Dunn 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.720 Having a narcissistic parent can be incredibly damaging, destabilizing, and 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.400 have lifelong effects. In fact, it's one of the dynamics 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.960 I'm asked about most. What happens when someone you rely 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:21.320 on for love, safety, and attachment also invalidates, manipulates, and 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:26.520 discards you. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:31.520 by doctor Lilly Dunn, whose strikingly honest memoir Sins of 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:36.440 My Father unravels the mysteries of her delinquent and narcissistic dad. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.280 Lily was just six years old when her father abandoned 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.879 the family and traveled thousands of miles to join the 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.839 Bugwan Rajniche Sanyasen cult seen in the Netflix series Wild 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.839 Wild Country. From that moment, he lived the life he 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.560 wanted without regard for Lily or her family safety, well being, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:03.120 or financial stability. Lily's story reveals the harm caused by 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.400 an antagonistic father, the effects of yearning for his love, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:14.120 approval and validation, and answers the quintessential question all children 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.919 of narcissists eventually ask, if I have a bad parent, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.160 what does that make me? From Red Table Talk Podcasts 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:28.640 and iHeartMedia, I'm doctor Rominy, and this is Navigating Narcissism. 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.360 This podcast should not be used as a substitute for 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.560 medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:42.200 independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:47.280 professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:52.880 or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:57.400 episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.440 The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:06.400 podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:11.200 not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:17.799 or their employees. Doctor Lily Done, It is such an 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:23.120 honor to welcome you to Navigating Narcissism. Since writing your 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.720 brilliant memoir, you've actually earned your PhD. So I want 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.640 to acknowledge that because it's a tremendous accomplishment. Congratulations, Thank 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:31.320 you so much. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.520 Yeah, I'm still getting used to it, but yeah, thank you. 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.760 Now your book Sins of My Father, They can't put 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.920 down book for me. It earned rave reviews and it 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:46.320 landed alongside Michelle Obama's The Light. We carry on the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:51.200 Guardian's Memoirs of the year, so huge, huge deal, and 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.000 I want to read to you. One of the guests 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:59.160 we had on Navigating Narcissism, doctor Yanya Lalich, said about 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.920 your book unput Downable, a love story, a horror story, 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:09.800 the unmasking of an unfortunately still much beloved guru, a 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.720 soul searching that can teach us much about how to 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:17.240 analyze and escape from a cruel narcissist. It is horrifyingly 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:23.600 real and brilliantly written. So to fill in everyone who's 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:28.880 listening to our interview, who was that cruel narcissist that 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:29.840 you were escaping? 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.960 This is my father. I probably didn't set out to 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.800 think that he was a cruel narcissist, even perhaps when 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.560 I started writing the book. I always knew that he 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.160 had narcissistic tendencies. But he followed me around like a ghost, 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.280 as these people do, in terms of the way that 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.960 his behavior, his betrayal of me, had embedded itself into 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.880 my behavior, my life, and I just couldn't really shake 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.800 him off. So my father, he was not famous, but 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:57.800 he was quite an extraordinary man, and that he was 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.640 quite adventurous, and he took risks, but he was incredibly 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.400 self centered, so he followed his own impulses and he 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:06.680 lived an extraordinary life. 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.680 Tell us a little bit about your dad. He left 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.840 your family when you were six years old. Can you 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.520 talk about the circumstances under how he left and how 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.360 it affected all of you who were left behind. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:20.360 Yeah. Absolutely. 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:20.720 So. 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.440 My dad was born in a sort of small town 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.760 in the south of England. He was sent to boarding 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.080 school at a very young age at age seven. Met 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.840 my mother when he was nineteen, sort of lied his 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.680 way into their first date, but my mom was not 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.800 aware of it at the time, so he was already 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.360 sort of lying in his late teens, and then they 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.160 fell in love, deeply in love. They got married very quickly. 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.080 They had two children, me and my brother, and they 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:54.960 lived a very charmed life. They were seen from the outsiders, 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.159 quite a golden couple. They ran their own publishing business. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.320 We lived in North London, lovely big house. Then one 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.880 day my dad woke up and he disappeared. He didn't 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.040 tell us where he was going, and he didn't tell 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.160 us when he was going to come back. And I 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.719 was six, my brother was eight. He had met a 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.840 woman at a strip club in Soho and she had 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.640 introduced him to her guru. So he got a one 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:23.159 way ticket to India to meet Bagwan Sheri Rajhnish, who 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:28.039 later became Osho, who was the notorious Guru, a very 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.799 controversial guru who was the star of world wide country fame, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.360 which brought that onto the international map. It was an 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.840 increasingly popular cult, which of course they didn't see as 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:41.960 a cult at the time. My dad went to India 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:46.080 and he was gone for six months and we really 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.520 thought that he had died. And then when he came back, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.560 he told us that he had been reborn, and so 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:58.640 the man that we knew before was no longer and 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.840 that was a huge severance for us and a. 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.560 Shock when he was gone. Would he attempt to call 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.520 you to inquire on how you were doing, your mother, you, 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:11.080 your sibling? 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.239 Well, he called once, so my mum received a phone 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.000 call reverse charges, and of course he had gone and 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.760 left us with no money. And yes, she did recall 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:28.200 a very sort of poignant conversation with him where she said, 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.320 you know, have you thought about your children? Your children 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.440 are suffering. They want to see you, and he said 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.120 that is their responsibility, that if they feel sad, that's 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.960 their responsibility. It has nothing to do with me. And 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:46.000 this was very much the culture of the Sinacin movement. 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.480 People were drawn to it, and it appealed to people 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.280 who wanted to give up that sense of responsibility. They 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.000 wanted to give up their secure family home or what 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:03.080 they saw as the tie of nuclear family, of mortgage, 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.200 of job, of conventional life and absolutely just wash their 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.480 hands of any kind of responsibility. And coming back and 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.040 saying that he had been reborn was basically a get 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.560 out card from being our father. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.200 Oh is that what it was? He's reborn? I have 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.440 to tell you when I hear this bugwan raginiche kind 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.040 of you know, cold stuff. It was a cult of 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:30.200 literally codified selfishness. They had taken the construct of absolute 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.600 selfishness and organized it into a cultic structure. In this way, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.000 you have no responsibility and sort of sense the conventional 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.320 life means you're trapped and imprisoned. And this idea at 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.480 six years old that your feelings were your responsibility and 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.720 that he held no responsibility for the pain that he 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.400 had issued upon a child at a very very exquisite 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.800 and significant developmental juncture six years old. It's a very 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.320 very delicate time for any child, and it's it seems 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.360 like he came back to tell you he was reborn, 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.480 with absolutely no inquiry on how you were doing, either 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:08.120 emotionally or financially. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.720 Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean that really was the kind 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.840 of trail that he left in his way. Really from 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.080 that moment on, it's extraordinary when I think back to 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.080 that time, how little he asked about me, you know, 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.520 how little he knew me actually, because he was so 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.280 kind of wrapped up in his own stuff and his 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:28.760 own complex. 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:33.679 Stuff, Doctor Lily. When he left, did he have a job? 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.600 Could you explain to us sort of financially, yes, he 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.640 walked out, but what did he really walk out of 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.760 in terms of the financial responsibilities he left behind and 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:45.920 the burden he had shouldered your mother with. 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.840 Yeah, I mean he was a very good businessman and 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.080 continue to be a good businessman throughout his whole life. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.440 He had a good instinct about business, and he earned 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.120 a lot of money. But at the time that he 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.240 left to go to India, he had overstretched himself. He 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.240 was very extravage so you know, at the first whiff 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.000 of money, he would be spending more than he was 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.320 taking in. So they were in trouble at that point 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.080 financially with the publishing house. So when he left, he 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:20.040 left an entire business. He left people waiting for their checks, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.240 he left people not getting paid, he left his staff. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.960 He also was in debt and we almost lost our house. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.439 So my poor mom, she had to take the company 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.080 through bankruptcy and she was threatened with losing her car 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.360 and having to give over all her assets. He put 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:40.720 us in a lot of danger. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.160 And he felt entitled to go do what he wanted, 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.280 no sense of consequence. There was absolutely no even allowance 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.120 for that. And this cult had allowed a way to 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.480 even handle that issue of personal responsibility by basically telling 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.960 people the only thing that matters is how you feel. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.880 But what was troubling it was he returns home to 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.520 your family home in London, six months away in India, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.360 and he had a proposal for your mother when he 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.600 walked in the door with his girlfriend. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.520 Yeah. So he came back with the same girlfriend that 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.120 he had met in the peep show in Soo and 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.160 my mom had never met her, but they came round 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:24.040 to the house and they sat together and he proposed 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.880 to my mother that he moved back into the house 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.040 and he moved back into the marital bed, and that 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.200 his girlfriend should move into the basement, and that he 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:37.240 would basically pirouette between my mom and this woman. Perhaps 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.240 this felt justified because he had just come from the 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.120 Rashnish cult, which you know, people know about it. It 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.880 was all about free love and free sex and let's 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.320 all kind of share couples and share our partners and 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.880 everything's fine. But you know, my mom was not having 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:53.840 any of that. She stood up and told him he 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.480 was bonkers. He was just like, no, that's not going 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:56.959 to happen. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.320 It's just the entitlement to a point of absurdity, such 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.280 asks could be made. There was absolutely no filter for 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.760 this man of how does my behavior affect others, how 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.160 would it be received, what might someone else be feeling. 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.920 It was a literal almost absence of empathy. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.720 Yeah, absolutely, And that had been going on for some 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.320 time before he made his escape from us, with the 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.600 affairs that he was having. He was emotionally absent from 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.480 us even before I was born, because he was playing 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.199 the field, you know, with multiple different people behind my 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.480 mom's back. So yeah, the lack of empathy and lack 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.760 of engagement emotionally was pretty chronic. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.360 After he abandons the family and then comes back. What 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.319 was your relationship like with your father after that? 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.280 I mean I was very young, I was very hurt. 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:54.240 I was very confused. I loved him enormously. Even talking 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.160 about it now, I can feel that love despite everything, 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:02.160 and I felt really, deeply, deeply hurt. It sort of 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:07.560 started this sort of horrible sense of longing in me 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.920 that I never really had enough of him. And so 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.920 he moved to a commune in Suffolk in England called Medina, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.080 and my brother and I would go and spend our 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.480 weekends with him, but we never saw him. We basically 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.600 spent our time sitting on the sofas outside the meditation room, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.679 playing Donkey Kong on our consoles, and he'd occasionally come 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.400 over and give us a pound note or something and say, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.080 you know, go often, get yourself some sweets, or find 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.320 yourself a drink or whatever. And I remember seeing different 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.720 women with him. So after breaking up with this lady 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.840 that he had met when he left us for India, 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.280 he met a very young woman who was at university. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.760 She was eighteen, and they got together and got married 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.000 very quickly. So in a way he sort of repeated 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.320 that pattern that he had had with my mother, you know, 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.760 marrying someone for young and very quickly. And she was 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.440 absolutely beautiful, very stylish, and I adored her. She was 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.720 like a sister. But in our ages being so close, 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.560 I found it very difficult because I felt that I 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.720 had been usurped by her, and his attention was always 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.120 on her because he was slightly insecure about her. But 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.880 I think the most damaging thing for me was that 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.720 I was exposed to his sort of sexual virility or 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.880 his sexual performance at such a young age, and I 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.080 was put in this slight sort of place of competition 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:40.000 with these women, which I didn't understand. I was exposed 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.000 to too much sex at Medina. The whole kind of 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.679 cult was based around sex. I started to sort of 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.240 understand my dad and he had been behaving like that 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.280 since before I was born. It was all about sort 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.280 of sexual conquest and his sexual sort of power. He 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.520 was much more interested in himself as a sexual being 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.640 other than a sort of loving beer. That was very 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.800 damaging for me. And my mum had a friend who 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.680 was a psychotherapist at the time, and she suggested that 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.040 because my dad hadn't ever really been a parent to me. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.680 I hadn't had the opportunity to grow as a daughter. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.440 I was sort of stuck in that place from when 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.760 he left, you know, which was a place of longing 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.280 and a place of heartbreak. Actually I was heartbroken. You know. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.640 He is so narcissistic and so kind of hard to 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.720 love in many ways, but he was also incredibly charismatic 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.280 and actually quite a pathetic man. He was a needy man, 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.400 and he was weak. So there's this awful kind of 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.760 conflict in me and the people who love him, where 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.280 we want to protect him, we want to care for him, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.760 we want to be there for him, but also we're 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:52.160 being betrayed, we're being hurt. We're dealing with someone who 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.440 just doesn't have the emotional capacity to care for us. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.520 And that's what's so damaging about it. 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.360 A can call these relationships trauma bonded relationships, because you 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.320 do feel a love. He is your father. There had 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.960 to have been moments there that were meaningful to you, 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.680 and that hanging in there because of the need for attachment, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.720 because of the love and holding on in those terrible moments, 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:19.880 of which there were a lot, and then trying to 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.880 ride them out for these possible good moments creates this 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.080 very unique kind of connection with another human being that 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:31.080 is a signature of almost every narcissistic relationship. You were 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.200 a child, you didn't even have the intellect to know 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.960 that this is not okay. Adults get into relationships like 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.720 this too, and even armed with that intellect say they 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.840 find it. It's almost physically impossible to think about pulling 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.040 themselves out of this kind of a loop. With parents, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.480 it literally as physically felt like, I can't imagine walking 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.200 away from this person. I love them, Yeah, And I. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.800 Think it's made worse when they are so unavailable. You 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.240 never ever feel that you fully get them. You can't 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.359 hold them, you don't even know them, so they're slippery. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.080 That makes it even worse because there's always that sense 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.800 of grasping at something that's just out of reach. 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.960 Correct. And I think at some level, the only person 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.280 that would really get a glimpse at him, if you would, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.160 is somebody he needed for narcissistic supply. His young, beautiful 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.600 wife would be a great example of that. She was young, 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.480 she was beautiful. Of course he was going to marry her, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.200 and there was always that sense of an insecurity that 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.720 she could slip away that kind of person would receive 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.760 his attention and it might be fleeting until the next 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:40.360 sexual partner whomever rolled around. Was your mother aware of 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.400 what the circumstances were like at this Medina place? Who 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.480 was pushing for you to continue having contact with your father? 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.320 Was this something that your mother thought was important? 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.960 This is a good question. I think my mom had 0:16:55.000 --> 0:17:01.200 a very, very challenging situation on her hands. She came 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.639 from a very loving family with a very loving father. 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.000 She was completely in love with my dad, obviously when 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.680 all this kind of imploded on her, but I think 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.560 a small part of her was always retained that innocence. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.879 That's not making an excuse at all. My mom is 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:25.199 an incredibly strong, positive, trusting person. But she was not 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.240 happy about Medina. She came to Medina once and she 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.040 cried when she was there. She didn't like it. The 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.879 dilemma that she had was that we wanted to see 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.240 our father. I think I particularly needed to see my father. 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.040 She said that I was like a clockwork toy that 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.480 when he left, I would start to wind down until 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.320 I just sort of slowed down and I became very 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:56.360 quiet and very introspective and very sad. And then as 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.680 I was building up to seeing him again, I would 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.680 build up again she was coming back. I was excited. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.040 I wanted to be with him, and then I would 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.359 go through that process again on leaving. So she knew 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.560 that it was important for me to develop a relationship 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.280 with him. The biggest dilemma for her was that she 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.120 was worried that if she said no, it would build 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.720 his image into an even greater force. You know, he 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.080 would be this huge sort of enigma, you know, who 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.879 she had stopped us from seeing. And I respect her 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.959 for that, and I think she also felt when we 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.560 were growing up as adults that actually we needed to 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.720 experience our father for who he was, and even if 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.119 that was a painful process, it was better that we 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.200 came to that rather than feeling that we weren't able 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.960 to meet him and actually really try and understand him. 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.520 And I really respect her for that. But it was 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:51.360 not easy for her. 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.960 I understand that as a mother, as a psychologist, I 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.240 fully understand where that painful and conflicted drive must have 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.159 been coming for her. What was I mean, especially in 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.720 your early year six seven, eight, nine tens, what was 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.960 so compelling about your father that was drawing you to 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.880 want to spend so much time with him. 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.440 I loved him. He was very affectionate, he was very funny. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.920 When I look back on my memories of before he left, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.600 he kind of comes across as the archetypal dad come 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.040 home from trips abroad, and he'd bring us all these 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:29.600 special suites and toys from America and Christmas. He would 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.840 pretend to be Father Christmas, and he'd put talconpowder on 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.520 the bottom of his shoes, and there'd be a trail 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.879 of sort of fake snow coming through from the attic door, 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.080 and we'd have all these amazing stuff in our stockings. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:48.040 He was funny, he was entertaining, he was really affectionate. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.080 He had lovely big hands, and he was warm, and 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.919 he was cuddly and was my dad. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.400 Thank you for showing that, because what you describe here 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.560 is the father who would bring the gifts from his travels, 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.399 and there were the sort of playful holiday memories, and 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.800 he was entertaining and affectionate. And then you'd go for 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.919 these weekends and time in Medina or other places he 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.119 was living, and you couldn't get access to what you 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:20.480 knew was going to be fun and loving. It's very 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.159 very frustrating if you were always on the edge of 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.359 your seat because you knew once you could get him, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.160 you would have a very pleasant circumstance, and then they'd 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.720 sort of be these big periods of time waiting for 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.320 him to come around. So to me, that's the paradox 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:34.960 of any narcissistic relationship. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.000 It's interesting you saying it in those terms because I've 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.240 not really thought of it like that before. But I 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.200 think you're absolutely right. I think it's almost like a drug, 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.400 isn't it. It's like that first hit. You know, you're 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.200 searching for that first hit. You're searching for that sort 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.679 of ultimate moment of connection, and you know when he 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.320 moves to Italy, I would sort of go in search 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.040 of him and he'd give me a hug and that 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.240 became my medicine and it would fill me up again, 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.960 you know, just to have that contact with him. I mean, 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.600 he was holding all the cards and he had an 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.200 incredible amount of power because of my need. 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:22.359 We will be right back with this conversation. Scarcity makes 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.760 anybody the most interesting person in the room, right. I 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.280 might even argue a little differently to you, doctor Lilly, 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.560 that was it a drug? I actually think that that 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.399 almost undersells what it was to you. I think it 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.120 was so much more profound than that. It was joy, 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.399 it was connection, it was safety in the world. It 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.360 was happiness. I don't think it was just a quick hit. 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.960 I think what you wanted is what every human being 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.200 wants most of all from a parent. It was love, 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.359 and you knew how much love could be there at 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.600 that moment if you could actually get him to sit 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.840 down long enough. So you were forever on this chase. 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.199 But the thing you were chasing wasn't all superficial. It 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.360 was incredibly deep, and that is a very very confusing 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:06.960 place for a child to be sort of stuck. Yeah, 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:08.760 I have to say. Something you wrote here is on 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.119 page one hundred and four of your book. I read it. 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.320 It's right before I was going to sleep. I closed 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.480 the book, I turned back on the light. I read 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.479 it again because it dawned on me that what you 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:24.440 had written here in a very short paragraph, captured not 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.920 only this incredibly powerful dynamic in your relationship with him, 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.040 it would inform anybody going through one of these relationships. 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.080 And let me just give some contact you're now talking 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.800 about when you were spending summers in Italy. He had 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.879 moved to a house in Tuscany. You paint this gorgeous 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.280 picture of what Italy was like, the smells, the sensations, 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.520 the heat, the rain. I mean, it was absolutely beautiful, 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.040 but against this backdrop still of this very inaccessible father. 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.320 At this time, your father's married, and you're talking about 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.959 the complexity of noticing how he was so adoring of 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.960 his wife, who was only about seven years older than you, 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.080 and you were left with this yearning. But there's something 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.720 you right here. And my father did not want or 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.760 need this kind of enslavement, but he needed my puppy 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.400 like devotion so he could continue to behave as he wanted, 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.200 the indulged man accountable to no one. But I was 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:22.639 also a nuisance to him, hanging on his sleeve so often, 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.800 unable to contain my noisy grief, and it reminded him 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.040