1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I am, by no 2 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: means a vegetarian. It's not my thing. But I've gotten 3 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: now where I eat a lot more fruit than I 4 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: used to. And one of the things that I have 5 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: come to enjoy more than anything. I guess it's because 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: they're convenient and kind of carry them around my hand, 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: or blueberries, and I will anytime I go to the 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: store buy a brain new pack of blueberries, like to 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: eat them with pecan halves. Actually, blueberries have gotten where 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: they bring me a lot of joy. You don't really 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: think about, you know, where blueberries come from or how 12 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: they're farmed. All I know is that I like the 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: way they taste. But can you imagine owning a blueberry farm, 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: and day after day you got to the blueberry bushes 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: and you check and see how they're doing. When it's 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: harvest time, you take them all in. But in one 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: particular day, out there in the middle of a blueberry farm, 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: there is found a metal foot locker, and contained within 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: that metal foot locker our charred human remains. And for 20 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: years they the identity remained a mystery. But just looking 21 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: upon that in that rather, I'm sure a bucolic environment. 22 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: You understand that all hell broke loose and there are 23 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: no explanations, at least initially. Today on body Backs, we're 24 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: going to talk about a case that involves a metal 25 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: foot locker, a burned body, a hammer, and a wife 26 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: that didn't want to be in a marriage any longer. 27 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. I 28 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: got to tell you this case. It kind of crossed 29 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: my desk and some of the things I've been covering 30 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: on the air. And I was struck by this because 31 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: there was so much forensic science involved actually in the 32 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: death of this gentleman, Robert Caraballo up in Michigan, that 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: I was actually astounded. And it wasn't a single perpetrator. 34 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: It was like a triad of individuals that were involved 35 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: in this poor man's death. And I was shocked, I 36 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: really was. And it is truly a mystery, and it 37 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: involves an individual that was on the run for a 38 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: long time. When I say on the run, I'm not 39 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: talking about you know, this happened to Michigan. I'm not 40 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: talking about somebody that ran off to Ohio or you know, 41 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: to Wisconsin. I'm talking about somebody that went literally on 42 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: the other side of the earth to get away from 43 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: from what she had wrought, right, and so I was fascinated. 44 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: It had me hooked. 45 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: The entire conspiracy that went into this actually is one 46 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: step further and deeper than I thought when we started, 47 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: because one thing that has come out they did a 48 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: test run. The suspects here did a test run of 49 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: what they were going to do. Now, you said the 50 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: woman who didn't want to be a part of a marriage, 51 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: all right, we have a conspiracy that involves Christopher Wayne McMillan. 52 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: We have Deneen ducharmeat who is the daughter of the 53 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: main suspect here, Beverly McCallum. Robert Caraballo, the victim, was 54 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: the stepfather of Deneen dou Charmay. Christopher Wayne McMillan was 55 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: friends with douch Charmais. They're both college friends at the time. 56 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: He's forty five now, and this was back in two 57 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: thousand and two, So do the math. He's twenty one, 58 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: she's twenty one. Their buddies and when Beverly McCallum comes 59 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: to them, it says, I'm tired of being married to 60 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: this guy. I got to get rid of him. I 61 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: guess divorce is not something that crosses people's minds. I 62 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: don't know why that is. But in this particular case, 63 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: rather than divorce, she opted to allegedly kill her husband. 64 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: And what took place sounds like something out of a 65 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: movie that we made up, because according to by the 66 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: way Christopher McMillan turns state's evidence, and he described exactly 67 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 2: what happened, and that is that Beverly McKellen pushes her 68 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: husband down the stairs. At the bottom of the stairs, 69 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: her daughter, Deneen du CHARMEI has a hammer. The song 70 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: if I had a hammer, we'll never have the same 71 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: meaning anymore, because she had a hammer, and she starts 72 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: pummeling the man's head with the hammer. Beverly mccalm comes 73 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: downstairs because give me the hammer. You're not doing good enough. 74 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: But at some point in time, while the victim here 75 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: is still alive, Robert Carabella is still alive, and the 76 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: hammer gets stuck in his skull, Joe the man is 77 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: killed and suffog well, he was killed by suffocating, put 78 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: a bag over his head, tied it off with a rope, 79 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: so all the bludgeting of his dome. Having the hammer 80 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: stuck was not enough to kill him. He was suffocated 81 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: with a rope and a bag and then thrown into 82 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: a locker of some foot locker and burned. 83 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that song thing. You're leaving behind so much 84 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: evidence that can specifically lead back to cause and effect 85 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to this individual's death. Let's go back 86 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: to this idea of the staircase. I've had a couple 87 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: of cases over the years where I've had people fall 88 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: down staircases. It's and it always seems like the staircases 89 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: that people fall down, I've never had one of these. 90 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: If you think about gone with the wind with a 91 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: big grand staircase, you know, never have those kind of cases. 92 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: It's always somebody that falls down into the basement. And 93 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: I think it's because places are so dark most of 94 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: the time, the rails are insufficient to the task, the 95 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: treads are worn, or whatever the case might be. Or 96 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: people just trip because you know when you go into 97 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: the basement. Many times people are going to the basement 98 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: to store things and they'll be carrying they don't they 99 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: don't have anything to hold on to, so it'll carry 100 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: a box or an item or something like that, and 101 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: they go tumbling what's fascinating is that when you have 102 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: a fall down a set of stairs, is that you're 103 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: going to get all of these interesting presentations on the body. 104 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: Obviously there can be fracturing that goes on, but some 105 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: of the more fascinating aspects are these contusions and points 106 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: of what we refer to as points of impact, and 107 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: you have multiple of them. That's why it makes it 108 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: sort of odd when you see this thing, because I mean, 109 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: everybody can identify with falling down a set of stairs 110 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: if you fall down a great number of these stairs. 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: For every time that you tumble and you make contact 112 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: with the surface again, first the first time that you fall, 113 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: if you're falling forward, you might impact I don't know, 114 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: on a shoulder or on the back of your head. 115 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: The next time you impact, you might impact on your backside. 116 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: Then you might impact on the outer thigh, and then 117 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: you might strike your shoulder again. And so you're making 118 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: these different different points of contact along the way. And 119 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, people that survive these falls many times they'll say, well, 120 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's like I was in a tumble dryer 121 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: with a bunch of rocks, and it's like being in 122 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: a car accident and you're getting, you know, except for 123 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: a car accident it's one, you know, kind of one impact. 124 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: This is multiple impacts. And you think about somebody that's 125 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: that says, well, gee whiz, you know, they're trying to 126 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: rationalize this out, and think, how am I going to 127 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: bring about somebody's death? I know, Hey, let me open 128 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: the door here, Hey, hon come here, take a look 129 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: and see what's going on, because this is obviously a 130 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: planned event, Dave. And so your first stop along the 131 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: continuum here is to your main your main weapon. You've 132 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: weaponized the staircase at this point in time, you're going 133 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: with pushing down the staircase because it's it's almost as 134 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: if you alluded to the idea that this It's almost 135 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: like somebody had written this out, you know, like I mean, 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe in a fiction form. Yeah, let's 137 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: go with the staircase. That that's gonna work. It's not 138 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: necessarily going to work. It's a crapshoot at best. But 139 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: then you've got somebody that's down there waiting, Dave with 140 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: a hammer. 141 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and then the hammer gets stuck. I don't know 142 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: why that really has me, Joe, but it does the 143 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: fact that they're using a hammer on this man's head. 144 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 2: By the way, this wasn't somebody that was unknown. They 145 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: didn't come home and have a robbery taking place and 146 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: they were killing this person, you know, or defending themselves. 147 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: This was McCallum's husband and stepfather to Denen do Charmeat. 148 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: So this was somebody They lived part of their life with. 149 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: The most violent homicides that I ever worked. It was 150 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: not dry by shootings and things like that. Those are horrible, 151 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: but it was domestic related events. Because there's so much 152 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: anger tied up in it, and you've got people that 153 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: are striking out at individuals. It's like, I'm not merely 154 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: going to kill you. I'm going to exact an ounce 155 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: a pound of floa. Rather, I'm going to exact metaphorically 156 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: of course here, but a pound of flesh from you. 157 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: You will in fact suffer. And look, we don't know, 158 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: We don't necessarily know what you know, kind of the 159 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: prelude to all of this was, but we do know 160 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: this the fact that, like you said, this was a 161 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: husband somebody that was acting at least as a father 162 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: figure in the environment that I guess at some point 163 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: in time was a provider. But yet the perpetrator in 164 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: this case just simply got tired of it and want 165 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: to end Dave. Just this past week, I was actually 166 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: teaching my medical Legal Death Investigation class at Jacksonville State 167 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: and I generally teach it every semester, but the it's 168 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: it's apropos here because I was just lecturing the other 169 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: day about blunt force trauma. And let me ask you. 170 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: I've got a I've got a quizzling here for you. 171 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: All right, here we go, all right, what do you 172 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: think is the number one cause of fatal blunt force 173 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: trauma in America? This even surpasses firearms or anything. 174 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: Else making your wife mad. 175 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: Motor vehicle accents, motor vehicle accents, And that's the number 176 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: that that's literally the number one cause of blunt force trauma. 177 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: And you know, like we had said just a second ago, 178 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: it's like this guy had been Oh my god, he 179 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: was he was like in a car accident, just like 180 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,479 Speaker 1: a couple of times over, just from falling down the staircase. 181 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: But you know, you got several different types of blunt 182 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: for here. 183 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: I guess I had to ask you this because when 184 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: I'm looking at this case, they called it the jack 185 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 2: in the box case, yeah, and which I know. We 186 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: try to find names for things because if the media 187 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: does it to draw attention so that people either click 188 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: or lank. 189 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Some mean it's really gruesome to me, It truly is, 190 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: but go ahead. 191 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: You know anyway, So in this case, we know, based 192 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: on the conspiracy that we actually do know what one 193 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: person involved in this set happened. 194 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 195 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: Otherwise you know, you're stuck with a cold case, which 196 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: is exactly what happened. They couldn't even identify this man, 197 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: and I don't know why, but we'll get to that 198 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: in a minute. But let me ask you, Joe, because 199 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: I was trying to picture the wounds and specifically knowing 200 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: that he was hitting the head with a hammer. But 201 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, if I'm falling down the stairs, I'm going 202 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: to hit my head at some point, and I'm probably 203 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: going to catch it on a sharp object, you know, 204 00:12:54,280 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: the stair footing, the side railing, the crown molding, the stuff, 205 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: or the shoe molding. There's so many things to hit, 206 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: so many edges to come in contact with. When you 207 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: get the bottom, you've got this bloody mass in your head. 208 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: How can you tell what came from the hammer and 209 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: what came, you know, from the stairs. How can you 210 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: delineate where they are from. 211 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question, Dave, And one of the ways 212 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: that we would do this in the Morgue is, first off, 213 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: I would you can. I'm not going to say that 214 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: it wouldn't happen, but you're not necessarily going to have 215 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: a tearing of the skin with a fall down a 216 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: staircase that you know is interpreted as a laceration. Remember 217 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: I talked about this before. Lacerations are not the same 218 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: as sharp force, but yet many people mis identify them 219 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: and there's a whole science behind that that I could 220 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: go into sometime. But with blunt force trauma, you're going 221 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: to generate injuries to the skin. Sometimes there're pattern injuries, 222 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: and one of the things that we look for are 223 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: first off, abrasions on the skin, which means that you're 224 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: there's like a friction event that's going on when you're 225 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: let's say, if those stairs are carpeted, Okay, when your 226 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: your bare skin hits that carpeted surface, it's going to 227 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: a braid the skin, which is superficial. All of us 228 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: have fallen down the skin in our knees or our elbows, 229 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: then underlying that you're going to have these big focal 230 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: areas of hemorrhage or you know, you'll have a As 231 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: one of the doctors I used to work with this 232 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: older gentleman I love dearly, he used to refer to 233 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: it as a hema tomata and he'd say, yeah, we've 234 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: got a hema tomato here, and it's a hematoma, you know, 235 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: so you'll have a large bruise. The trick is is 236 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: that how do you delineate between the impact that you 237 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: have on all of these multiple surfaces as you're tumbling 238 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: down the staircase as opposed to the thing that we 239 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: had mentioned a second ago is rather gruesome, which is 240 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: a hammer attack. And the save grace I think it 241 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, is that with a hammer attack, 242 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: the features are very very specific. As a matter of fact, 243 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: if we can recover the hammer, and I'm talking about 244 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: in this case, you've got a body that was burned, 245 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: but if you can recover the hammer at the scene, 246 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: many times the hammer will be brought to the mork. 247 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating? And then we will take Yeah, you 248 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: can match it. Yeah, so just imagine, if you imagine 249 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: the business end of a hammer, as far as the 250 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: impact the head of the hammer, that flat surface is 251 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: almost the shape, and it's dependent upon the type of 252 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: hammer it is. But I'm just throwing this out here. 253 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: Think about the shape of a quarter, all right. And 254 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: if you take that hammer and you drive it into 255 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: some money's skull multiple times, you will get these kind 256 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: of elliptical they're kind of half moon shaped lacerations. And 257 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: then on the skin and then when you reflect the 258 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: scalp and you pull it back, you'll see that there 259 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: is what we refer to as a bone plug. So 260 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: the skull itself will actually fracture. You can almost marry 261 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: it up to one of the edges of the hammer. 262 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: You can compare it in other times if they come 263 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: directly down. You know that the head is oddly it's 264 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: not oddly shaped, that's kind of the wrong thing to say. 265 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: But it's got all these kind of curved features to it, 266 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: all right. The topography of it, it's really really interesting. 267 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: If you hit it flush, you will I've seen these 268 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: quarter sized bone fractures and they're shaped like a quarter, 269 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: and it's really really fascinating to compare that with the 270 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: head of the hammer and the bone plug manytime is 271 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: driven in. But I think you you had told me 272 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: that one of these individuals actually stated that they literally 273 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: buried this hammer in this man's skull. 274 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: Is that and he was alive. That's what got me 275 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: is that he wasn't dead. They actually got the hammer 276 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: stuck and couldn't get it out, and I'm sure they 277 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: did eventually, But yeah, the McMillan here actually said in 278 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 2: his test in telling police because he actually copped a 279 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: plea deal. That's how we have all this information about 280 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: what actually took place and when it took place, is 281 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: because he told police that they actually got the hammer 282 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: stuck and the man was still alive. So when Dianne Ducharmet, 283 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: when she was the first she was at the bottom 284 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: of the stairs hitting him first, and Mom McCallum, the wife, 285 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: didn't like how she was going about this, and so 286 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: she starts taking the hammer and hitting and he McMillan 287 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: was specific on the side of the head over here 288 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: by the temple, and I'm thinking that had to have 289 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: been much more vicious in terms of because as in 290 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 2: the skull thinner in the temple areas. 291 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, much much thinner in that particular area. The thickest 292 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: part of the skull, there's two areas, really is going 293 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: to be the frontal bone, which makes up your forehead. Now, 294 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: if you move to the left or the right of 295 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: that and kind of down and forward of your ear, 296 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: that's where the temporal bone is. Then up above the 297 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: temporal bone, you have what's referred to as the parietals 298 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: some people will say parie to heal, and that's thick. 299 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: Temple bone is not thick, it's rather thin. But really 300 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: the most the thickest area, uh and I know because 301 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: I've opened a lot of skulls over the course of 302 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: my career in the morgue is actually the occiput or 303 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: the occipital. If you feel if you put your hand 304 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: behind your head, you can kind of feel that bump 305 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: on the back of your head. That's called the occipital protuberance. 306 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: And that's one of the thickest areas. But isn't it 307 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: interesting that area right there kind of guards that kind 308 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: of primal brain area, you know, where our base, our 309 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: base functions, the autonomic nervous system, you know, kind of 310 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: en dwells in that area. That's you know, we don't 311 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: have to think about breathing. We don't have to think about, 312 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, our heart beating or anything like that. That 313 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: that's really protected. I would imagine that they probably did. 314 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: Even if they buried the hammer in his skull, that's 315 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: no guarantee necessarily that that's going to be an immediate 316 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: fatal blow, right, And I think that a lot of 317 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: people think that that would happen. I would think I. 318 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: Did until I saw it, and I thought, you've got 319 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: to be kidding me. So he could actually be sitting 320 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: there breathing with a hammer. This is the actual testimony 321 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: by this this is ongoing case right now. Yeah, this 322 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: is what McMillan testified. As I mentioned, he has pleaded 323 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: guilty now as being a part of this whole thing. 324 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: This is what he said. He testified in court. Beverly 325 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: was yelling at Deneen, give me the hammer, give me 326 00:19:55,040 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: the hammer, and he says McCallum took the hammer and 327 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: hit her husband in the left side of the head 328 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: several times. The hammer became stuck in Caraballo's head. That 329 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 2: was the testimony. 330 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: Joe. Yeah, and I don't know, I don't know what 331 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: kind of force the daughter had delivered this discharmat I 332 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: believe his host pronounced charmaine. I don't know what kind 333 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: of force she had delivered. Uh, you see the here's 334 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: the thing about a perpetrator that's trying to kill somebody 335 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: with a blunt object. And if you shoot somebody, you 336 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: know relative it's there's a high probably it's gonna be 337 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: a terminal event. You don't have to do a lot 338 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: of work other than aim it and pull the trigger. 339 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: With this, you really get Can you imagine you're put 340 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: into this position where you're armed with a hammer and 341 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: you have to Uh, if they're entering into this conspiracy together, 342 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: you're being told, okay, I'm going to push him downstairs 343 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: and we're going to kill him. Well, okay, if you're 344 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: coming to this, if you're coming to the situation, how 345 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: much much force is required? As grifomeess as is, what's 346 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: your skill level with a hammer? You know, I don't 347 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: know anything about the daughter, but I can't imagine she 348 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: was a finishing contractor, you know, working on homes and 349 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: framing out houses, which you know, there's a lot of 350 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: skill with driving a nail. If you're using a hammer 351 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: to do it, I'm not real good at it myself. 352 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm always mishitting the nail or hitting my hand or 353 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: something like that. But how much more so when you're 354 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: looking down at the body of your stepfather and up 355 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: at the top of the staircase, maybe for an instant 356 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: you glance up and there's your mother standing there after 357 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: she's pushed this guy down the staircase, and you know 358 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: what you have to do. The problem is you don't 359 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: know how much force is required, how long you're going 360 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: to have to do it, which end of the hammer 361 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: to use in order to kill this individual. If you're 362 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: an investigator on a case such as this and you're 363 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: standing over, if you can just put yourself into this 364 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: position just for a second, all my friends out here, 365 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: just listen to me. You're the investigator here, and you're 366 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: standing in a blueberry field and you're standing over what 367 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: they have termed as a metal box, a metal foot 368 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: locker specifically, and you're staring down into this box, and 369 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: you've got this mass that's in there that is charred. 370 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: You don't know who this person is, and would not 371 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: know who this person is day for years and years 372 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and years to come. I would think this is not 373 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: like finding a skeleton and you know, maybe it's been 374 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: partially buried and you've got scattered and no, this is 375 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: a concentrated collection of human remains that is in that 376 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: has been placed in a box and that has been burned. 377 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: There's a lot of there's a lot of activity going 378 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: on here. There's a lot of thought going into this, 379 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: and you think about that, and for an investigator, this 380 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: has got to be one of the most frustrating things. 381 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: If you don't know who was behind this to begin with, 382 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: or who your victim is. 383 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out how they didn't know who 384 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: this was based on. If they don't know who it is, 385 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: then they don't know who the possible suspects are. And 386 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 2: they didn't know who he was for ten years or 387 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: actually thirteen years. But I want to go back to 388 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: something very quickly, Joe, and I'm yeah, sure, but all right, 389 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: when somebody is getting beat about the head, Yeah, does 390 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,239 Speaker 2: the skull? I know when a baby is born, how 391 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: they have the soft spot on the top of the 392 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: head and we're all careful of that and the dome 393 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: seals over time. Does when you're being hit about the head, 394 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: does it break in a similar fashion that it comes 395 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: together as you're growing is a brain. 396 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're thinking about the suture lines that are 397 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: in place. If you look, you can go along and 398 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: see see what I'm talking about. But you have like 399 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: a sagital sutures, you have a mid line suture. They 400 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: are the suture lines that you know where when we 401 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: are developing in uterow. But also and that's where the 402 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: fontinel comes in. You know what people commonly refer to 403 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: as a soft spot. And actually you have two. There's 404 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: one that's more antiror's up to the front. You have 405 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: another one that's not quite as pronounced, it's more posterior. 406 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: As a baby grows, that begins to close off. And 407 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: then the skull will essentially lack of a better term here, 408 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: really quickly off the top of my head, it will 409 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: begin to ossify, essentially, And you know, kids can strike 410 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: their head and it'll be it's not necessarily for you 411 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: or I a kid striking his head, the same thing 412 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: might be I might wind up in a hospital bed. 413 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: But the child skull is so much more pliable. When 414 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: you get to you know, like middle age, you know, 415 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: these fracture lines are going to show up, and sometimes 416 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: they will fracture along the future lines. But if you're 417 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: being impacted specifically with a hammer in a specific area, 418 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: the best thing I can suggest if you want to 419 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: see what this looks like, take a hard boiled egg. 420 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: Take a hard boiled egg and take it in after 421 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: it's bowl. Just simply hold it. You can hold it, 422 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, six seven inches above a counter surface 423 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: and drop it straight down and don't squeeze it or 424 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 1: anything like that. If you do it, pick it up 425 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: and look at that fracture on that kind of curved 426 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: surface that you'll see on an egg many times with 427 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: direct impact, you'll see the center. It looks like a 428 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: spider web that kind of goes out from that concentric area. 429 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: Many times you'll see that with skulls as well. So 430 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: if you've got a center point of a fracturing, like 431 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: with a hammer, it's going to kind of you'll get 432 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: these kind of in glass examination. In forensics they refer 433 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: to him as radio lines. They just kind of expand 434 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: out like that, right, you'll see it almost like a 435 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: spider web that's there. But you know, Dave, you add 436 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: you add of heat, well you got yeah, you got 437 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: heat all right? 438 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: Because we have all this damage to the head that 439 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: we know is caused by a hammer, and we know 440 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: that based on what we've been told that the victim 441 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: here is suffocated after you know, he took the beating 442 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: to the head and survived, and so they put a 443 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: bag over his head, tied it off with a rope, 444 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: and he suffocated to death. Right then they burned him 445 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: inside of a foot locker. And I guess my my 446 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 2: thing is, how do you go back now and figure 447 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 2: out how many other than a complete hit of the 448 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: hammer on the head that left a mark? You know, 449 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: you can't tell if there was if he was had 450 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: cuts all over him, you know, the death by a 451 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: thousand cuts. You can't tell that because it's all burned off. 452 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: Yeah it is, But then what is the fire due 453 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: to what's left? Is I know that you know I 454 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 2: know this from Breaking Bad that they did it in 455 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 2: one of the final episodes, that the teeth explode at 456 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: a certain level of heat. Is that like popcorn? Is 457 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: that a true thing? 458 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: I wouldn't go as far as to say an explosion, 459 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: but yeah, they begin to fracture, and we have what 460 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: referred to as heat fractures. And once you attain that 461 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: kind of really high end temperature that the remains are 462 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: exposed to, you'll get fracture lines in the long bones. 463 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: And the trick is are you going to be able 464 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: to delineate between anti mortem fractures and post mortem fractures? 465 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: And that requires quite a bit of study. And also 466 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: with the skull, with the external table of skull where 467 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: someone's been pounded on with a hammer, you can have 468 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: that that presenting, You can have that issue presenting where 469 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: those impacts the specific impacts with a hammer. But then 470 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: you start exposing the body to heat, and it has 471 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: to be constant heat, David. It's not something that you 472 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: just throw a match on it and walk away. You'd 473 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: have to feed the fire. I don't know how sufficient 474 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: they were at that task. Most people don't have the 475 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: stomach for it. They can't stand there and watch a 476 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: human body be rendered down. You know, beating somebody is 477 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: one thing, But when you go to apply a safe, 478 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: for instance, an accelerant to a body, and you initiate 479 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: the fire with the accelerant and of course a match 480 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: or whatever you use, are you actually willing to stand 481 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: there for a protracted period of time until the body 482 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: is totally rendered down in most cases, know, people don't 483 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: do that. So what happens is, after exposure to heat, 484 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: bone begins to fracture. All right, Now, bone is different 485 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: than teeth. Teeth are much more resilient than bone. Bone 486 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: will begin to fracture, and once it fractures, it passes 487 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: into a phase where you have this kind of the 488 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: calcium begins to break down the bones and you'll have 489 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: bones that will eventually turn to ash. That's kind of 490 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: what you have happened in a crematory. But if the 491 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: body is intact, and this body was to a degree intact, 492 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: how do you delineate between those hammer fractures and maybe 493 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: even fall fractures that may have been there and heat fracturing. 494 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: And that's the big question here. What I can tell 495 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: you is that if you're struck with an object that's 496 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,239 Speaker 1: a very specific blunt object like a hammer, you're going 497 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: to have these very definitive edges in the bone and 498 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: the bone will plug and you can actually pick up 499 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: on that even beyond the heat fracturing. So you know, 500 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: they I would suspect that upon initial observation that the 501 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: medical legal system up in Michigan, as they're examining the body. 502 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: They could pick up on some of this. The key 503 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: to all of this, I think is doing X rays. 504 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: You know, anytime you have a body that has been 505 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: severely burned like this, the question you have to ask is, well, 506 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: what's the purpose of fire and a relative to a 507 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: dead body. Well, unless you're trying to do a cremation, 508 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: like in a crematory, you're trying to get rid of something, Dave, 509 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: So why would you set a body on fire? You 510 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: don't think that somebody climbed into a steel foot locker 511 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: of their own accord and set themselves on fire. Suppose 512 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: that could happen. That's not what's going on here, though. 513 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: You have to be able to delineate between those anti 514 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: mortem events and the perry or post morteum events. In 515 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: a particular case like this. 516 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: His body is placed in the foot locker, is set 517 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: on fire, and we're left with they can't determine who 518 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: this person is. When the foot locker is found in 519 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: the blueberry field by the farmer and it takes years 520 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: to identify the remains, I guess when I'm thinking about this, 521 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: I'm wondering why it took so long. Because they have 522 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: DNA that they can take from the bone matter and 523 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: things like that. I'm sure, but we are limited in 524 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: our ability to identify who that individual is unless they 525 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: already have their DNA in the system. Right. 526 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. On hand, I think that people think that DNA 527 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: is like this, it's almost like a magic one. You're 528 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: going to seem like, yes, yeah, it's like boom, you know, 529 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: the case is solved. That's not what happens. And you 530 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: could even look at it like fingerprints. Okay, let's just 531 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: make it even more simple. If you if you have 532 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: a latent print, which is an unseen print, you know 533 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: that has to be enhanced with dust and all that stuff. 534 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: If you find a print, good on you, man, I'm 535 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: happy that you found a print. Now, where are you 536 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: going to compare it to, Well, you run it through 537 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: the system. If nobody's in the system, it's cool that 538 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: you got a fingerprint, but if you don't have anything 539 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: compare it to, then it's not going to help you 540 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: a lot. The same principle with DNA. 541 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: And that's what happened here. 542 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is now. I think that this is 543 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: kind of Dave. This is kind of one of those 544 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: cases where we probably had to wait for the science 545 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: just a we bid to catch up, you know, with 546 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: the circumstances and in this particular case, that we're eventually 547 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: able to identify this poor man. And you know, it's 548 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: it's it's like the proverbial string on the sweater that 549 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: mama tells you not to pull. The whole thing's gonna 550 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: come unraveled. Well for us, that's good. We want to 551 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: pull on a string in forensics because it'll make the 552 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: case unravel or the mystery unravel. That way, you can 553 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: begin to figure it out. Because if you figure out 554 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: who this guy is, right, who's he in relationship with? Well, 555 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: you know if once you figure that out, then you 556 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: begin to develop leads from that. 557 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: They actually used old school method of dental records to 558 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 2: get firm who he was. Now, once they had an 559 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: idea of who the individual was, they went back and 560 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: that led them back to the you know, where was 561 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: he living last? You know, what record do we have 562 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: with this individual? And they tracked it back to a 563 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: duplex on Horatio Street in Charlotte, Michigan, where police didn't 564 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: and this got I got to ask you this, Joe, 565 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 2: and uh, they found remnants of his DNA in the basement. 566 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 2: Underneath some painted services and a concrete patch on the floor. 567 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: They found his DNA under paint. That to me is remarkable. 568 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. You you think about that, you begin 569 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: to think about you know, people talk about I think 570 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: one of the things you'll you'll hear, you know, in 571 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: all these cases that we cover and people talking talking 572 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 1: about this, they'll talk about the fragility of of of DNA, 573 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: and it is fragile. However, when something is protected, and 574 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, you can define that however you want to. 575 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: When an area is particularly protected and it's even layered 576 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: in areas, you know, like under carpet or under paint 577 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, it's very resilient and you 578 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: can still go back and get a match. It all 579 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: depends on how deep you want to dig from a 580 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: crime seene perspective, how soon you get out there. And 581 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: again we've got a real delay here, don't we. I mean, 582 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: this case occurred the attack, his body was found in 583 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and two, and so thirteen years, thirteen years. 584 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: You jump forward from that, and it's a grand mystery. 585 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. You know, with the body, they 586 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: have the dental obviously, but they would have you have 587 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: a source for DNA with the actual body. Okay, if 588 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: you have that stored and that goes into that particular 589 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: jurisdiction's care, they're going to hang on to that so 590 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: that they have a sample that they can go back 591 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: and compare. So if you if you have an idea 592 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: who this individual might be, you go through there and 593 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: you look for the sourcing of his DNA. Well, why 594 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: in that particular area of the home is this DNA there 595 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: and concentrated there? Wow? Then the mystery begins to unfold 596 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: at that point in Tom because there's a narrative to 597 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: be told here. And we go back to this idea 598 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: of him coming down the staircase right been beaten with 599 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: a hammer, which would have been a very bloody affair. 600 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: By the way, the original plan as he came down 601 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: the stairs, after he's pushed down the stairs, the original 602 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: plan was for McMillan, the other guy, the guy who 603 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 2: actually took a plean to hit him with a baseball bat, 604 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: to mash his melon with a baseball bat. That was 605 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: the plan. However, as he's coming down the stairs, McMillan 606 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: swings the bat and misses and hits a pole, and 607 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 2: that caused the bat to shatter. That's why they went 608 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: with that hammer. 609 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is you know, they always talk poorly 610 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: about the Keystone Keystone cops in reference to our friends 611 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: in law enforcement. Equally on the other side of the coin, 612 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: you begin to think about people that plan these sorts 613 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: things out, and it has a very Keystone esque quality 614 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: to it. How could you be this disorganized and backwards 615 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about you know, and look, let's think 616 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: of it like this. The first place they're going to 617 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: start is by they're heavily depended upon pushing somebody down 618 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: a stair set of stairs in order to kill them. 619 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe they just thought, well it'll at least incapacitating 620 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: and stunning for a moment till we can get to him. Again, 621 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: this goes to planning. You know, why exactly would you 622 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: be at the base of a staircase holding a baseball bat? 623 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: To begin with? Are you going out in the backyard 624 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: you know you're going to knock a few balls around. 625 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: Are you just collecting it to go out to the 626 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: car you're going to bat and cage? I don't think 627 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: that that's the case. And why do they have easy 628 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: access to a hammer? Well, you know it's the basement. 629 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: Maybe you keep your tools down there, all right, everybody's 630 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: got a couple of hammers, but you know, to have 631 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: it at within reach of a man that is falling 632 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: down a staircase, not falling, but has been push that 633 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: led to his fall down the staircase. You know, this 634 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: goes to who would be served by doing this? Why 635 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: would they do this? And I think the story is 636 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: certainly told with McCollum here. 637 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,479 Speaker 2: When they finally identified who the victim was, it didn't 638 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: take long to move from there because obviously, when investigators 639 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: start investigating a crime and you have a dead person, 640 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: the people closest to him have to have an alibi 641 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 2: right off the bat, and you know, where's your wife 642 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 2: and where's your daughter and all that, and that's what 643 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 2: led them to them. So they get the indictment. It 644 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: takes a couple of years, they get it done. And 645 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: at the time I think the suspect, the main suspect 646 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 2: here at the Beverly McCollum, actually is in Pakistan. And 647 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: you know you mentioned the Keystone Cops and how it 648 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 2: applies to criminals as well. At some point in time, 649 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: Beverly McCallum decides to go to Italy. Italy has a 650 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 2: law that and I didn't know this untill we prep 651 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 2: this show that when you check into a hotel, your 652 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 2: identification is then sent to the police for them to 653 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: make sure there are no wants and warrants on you. 654 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: It's an automatic thing, it's the law, and that's what 655 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 2: the police did in Italy. They sent it to the 656 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 2: police and it is like ding, Hey, she's been indicted 657 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: for a murder in the US. 658 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, she popped up on interpolse or probably yeah, right? 659 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: Did she not see this coming? You know? I've often 660 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: I've been fascinated, Dave, by these individuals that go on 661 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: the run like this and try to stay on the 662 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: run for a protracted period of time, just trying to 663 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: elude the long arm of the law. And in this case, 664 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: it's certainly caught up with her, didn't it. 665 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: And they were able to get her back home. And 666 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 2: that's when by that time, investigators have their hands full 667 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 2: on basic crimes. I'm amazed at everything that has to 668 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: be done to get a conviction when you don't have 669 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: somebody admitting gilt. And in this particular case, the way 670 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: they got all their answers was from one of the conspirators, McMillan, 671 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 2: because as we mentioned, they actually did a trial run through. 672 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: We know that because of one of the conspirators, the 673 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: guy that was supposed hit him with the baseball bat. 674 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 2: We know about the paint in the basement because well, 675 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 2: he told him they had blood spatter, so they painted 676 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: over it. And the cement chips, well, same reason. There 677 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: were blood spatter and there were certain parts of the 678 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 2: cement they couldn't get it up, so they chipped it 679 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: up and replaced that with some cement over the top. 680 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 2: So there was a cover up going on that police 681 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 2: really couldn't explain and didn't have all the details until 682 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 2: they got the first person to crack and that was McMillan. 683 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: And now here we are where Beverly McCallum is actually 684 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,439 Speaker 2: on trial for the murder of her husband at the time. 685 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: One interesting point along this is that Dianne McCallum's daughter, 686 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: who keep in mind, was the person that was initially 687 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: wielding this hammer day. She was convicted in twenty twenty 688 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: two in the death of mister Carbollo. And you know, 689 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: the last one who walk through the doors of courthouse, 690 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: that's going to be tried is Beverly McCallum. 691 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: You know, Joe, before you finished, I've got to throw 692 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: this in there. We just found out a jury has 693 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 2: found Beverly McCollum guilty on all charges in what started 694 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: off as the Jack in the Box murder case and 695 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: became the Fugitive wife murder trial. It was a conspiracy 696 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 2: that fell apart just the way you said it would, Joe. 697 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: I think that it just goes to show Dave, particularly 698 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to a case that is so super 699 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: bizarre and you've got individuals that are essentially entering into 700 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: a conspiracy together. The old adage applies here. It's very 701 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: very easy for one person to keep a secret, but 702 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: if you involve anybody else, you've reached the end. I'm 703 00:40:52,880 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags