1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie. 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: I probably mentioned before that I am a big fan 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: of the horror writer HP Lovecraft. Yes you have, yeah, 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: I um, I think I discovered Lovecraft for myself back 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: in n I was a junior in high school. The 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: tool album Auma had just hit the stores, and then 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I suddenly discovered this, this brand new horror writer in 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: the horror section at Barnes and Noble or somewhere in Huntsville, Alabama. 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: And and up to that point, I'd read a lot 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: of Stephen King. You know, I was really into Tolkien, um, 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the normal assortment of of horror 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: and sci fi, and you know, i'd read done for 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: the first time. But then I found this this curious 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: book on the shelf, and it was just the imaginative, 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: the freshest, the most to me, the most cutting edge, 18 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: uh horror fiction I'd ever read, which and I shortly 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: discover that this was there was nothing new about it 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: at all. This was this was stuff from the early 21 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: twentieth century that and then the author had been dead 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: for decades. Yeah, and what's interesting about this is that 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft went on to influence all the writers that 24 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: you just mentioned, right, so Stephen King, also Neil Gaiman, 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: just a whole host of writers, science fiction writers, horror writers. 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft kind of created the blueprint for that. Yeah. 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: This this this idea of sort of cosmic dread of humanity, 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of a drift in a moral universe that he 29 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: can barely understand. I mean, the notes of Lovecraft I 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: and Horror do resonate just throughout, certainly throughout horror, but 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: also into science fiction, into fantasy and our pop culture. 32 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: We've got to the point where you're you're gonna see 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: Getulu shirts and Getulu plush doll as you walk down 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: the store and through the mall. Yeah. Now, Casulo for 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: for anybody who is not familiar with flulo, we have 36 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: an article called how cula works, and that's not actually 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: how you pronounce kafulu, and we'll get to that later. 38 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: But casulu um is this kind of deep sea creature, 39 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: and Lovecraft describes it as a cross between like an octopus, 40 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: a dragon, or this kind of human like or anthropomorphic creature. 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: So Cthulhu is as a sleep deep down in the 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: ocean and and transmitting thoughts to all those other dreamers 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: out there, those humans who have sort of a creative 44 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: spark to them. That's the idea of cthulh. So you 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: see these little plushy Cthulhu dolls, which is really funny 46 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: because the actual CuO is supposed to be brightening and horrific. Yeah, 47 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: my son actually has one of the plush dolls and uh, 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: he largely ignores it, but once he flew around the house. 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: But but yeah, but for me, it kind of it 50 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: does take away from the power of the of the 51 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: idea and uh and and as well we'll discuss later 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: was this was actually a minor figure in Lovecraft riding. 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: They're far more interesting for more complex, far more terrifying 54 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: entities that he created, But this is the one that's 55 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: really taken off and kind of serves as an overall 56 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: symbol of of what what he did in the kind 57 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: of the worlds that he created. Yeah, but people don't 58 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: realize that a lot of our understanding of aliens and 59 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: in some ways that you know, the cosmos and other 60 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: extra extraterrestrial life forms is based on Lovecraft's ideas about 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: the world. I mean that permeates a lot of fiction, 62 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: a lot of movies, all right. So just to to 63 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: to refresh and to and to inform anyone who's not 64 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: familiar with Lovecraft at all. HP. Lovecraft was born on 65 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: August ninety in Providence, Rhode Island, and he went on 66 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: to become a very important American pulp author. Uh. Again, 67 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: it had a profound influence on horror fiction and pop 68 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: culture as a whole, mostly after his death. And he 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: died uh fairly young from cancer of the small intestines, 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: to the age of forty six, still at the height 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: of his literary powers. Um. Yet despite this relatively short 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: writing career, you know, immense impact. Um he his work 73 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: just seethes with this, uh, with this new form of 74 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: supernatural menace, one that's grounded in the darker unknowns of 75 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: ancient myth cycles. Would also affix to humanity's increasing scientific 76 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: understanding of the cosmos in the early twentieth century. So 77 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about Darwin's evolution, Einstein's relativity, quantum physics, all 78 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: of this playing into into his writing and his in 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: his works ground humanity in this amoral universe where where 80 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: vain humanity understands less than it thinks it does about 81 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: its origins, about its ultimate fate. And so we end 82 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: up with this sort of loose idea of of of 83 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: human civilization residing in a tidal pool of reasoning and 84 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: beyond which there's just this endless ocean of madness and chaos, 85 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: or at least it's madness and chaos to our our 86 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: limited ability to just take it all in. So his 87 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: stories generally involve somebody coming to terms with these kind 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 1: of revelations and generally generally going at least a little 89 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: bit insane with them. And and and it's and it's 90 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: it's it's all about the power of the unknown to 91 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: inspire us, certainly as a reader, but also to horrify 92 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: us as well. Right, this is from the Science Fiction 93 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 1: and Fantasy Stack Exchange, because, by the way, I'm new 94 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: to the HP Lovecraft world. Of course I've known about it, 95 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: but this is a sort of crash course in HP 96 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: Lovecraft for me. So when I was looking at information 97 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: on this that the Stack Exchange said the main focus 98 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: of Lovecraft's works are indeed aliens. As we mentioned, lots 99 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and lots of aliens. Some visited Earth and lived on it. 100 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: Some battle between themselves. Some built cities, as we'll discuss 101 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: later in one of the novellas. Some destroyed cities, some 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: created civilizations, some of which collapsed and left ruins behind them. 103 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Some left. Some of these aliens are sleeping like Fulu, 104 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: some are well awake, and some are good, some are evil, 105 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: some are neutral, which is a really that's kind of 106 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: a big idea that right during this time period, that 107 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: you could have this other being that would be neutral, 108 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: that didn't care about the human beings, because this is 109 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: way outside of the human experience and with in which 110 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: we are constantly anthropomorphizing everything. Yeah, and that's key because 111 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: it's certainly living in an age of of Star Trek 112 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: and in living the shadow of Star Trek, where you 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: see just all these anthropomorphized visions of what aliens would be, Like, 114 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: what what are aliens? They're just humans with funny ripples 115 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: on their head. For the most part. I know there's 116 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: some more out there, alien extra trust real ideas in 117 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: Star Trek's universe, but for the most part, everything is 118 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: pretty human and uh, and certainly at the at the 119 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: time of Lovecraft's writing a lot of more popular science fiction. 120 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: Uh you know, you look at look at some of 121 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: the Mars fiction that was out there, etcetera. You see 122 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: very human ideas of what aliens would be like. And 123 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: it's it's based in the pulp dichotomy of good and evil. 124 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: So you have good aliens and bad aliens and that's 125 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Nobody's saying you shouldn't or can't 126 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: enjoy that. But Lovecraft brought in this side idea of 127 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: aliens that were very inhuman. That and certainly, as we've 128 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 1: discussed before, if we were to try and figure out 129 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: what life would consist of elsewhere in the universe, we 130 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: we can only base our ideas on our terrestrial model. 131 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: But our terrestrial model is far more uh varied, and 132 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: far far far richer than just the human form. And 133 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: Lovecraft was was tuned into that because he was he 134 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: was very into the science literature of the day, and 135 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: he was aware that the bio diversity on Earth could 136 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: get very strange. That's what I love about it, because 137 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: he did introduce this idea of an extra terrestrial that 138 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: looked nothing like us, that didn't care about us, that 139 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: was outside of let's look at it this way the 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: Christian Judeo experience, right, and in a very scientific way, 141 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: as you say, he is looking these creatures in a 142 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: very scientific way, saying, just like the cosmoves out there 143 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: and the elements in it, perhaps there is not a 144 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: care truly about humans. Humans are just another organism that 145 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: happened to be on this Earth. And that is a 146 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: very I mean, that is kind of a radical idea 147 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: during that time period. Yeah. Indeed, one of my favorite 148 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: stories that he wrote, and this was one that he 149 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: wrote later in life when he was like in just 150 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: really firing on all cylinders, is uh, the Whisperer and Darkness, 151 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: which concerns this idea that there are extraterrestrial beings that 152 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: have been visiting Earth for quite some time. They're carrying 153 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: out their own business here. They really don't care about humans. 154 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: But the problem is as humans become more and more 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: technically advanced, as they is, they multiply and cover more 156 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: corners of the globe, uh, and just more of the 157 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: the planet Earth. There's increased possibility that we run into them, 158 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: and and if they keep running into us, then they're 159 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: gonna probably have to wipe us out just just in 160 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: order to keep carrying on their their own products here 161 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: on the Earth, which isn't is again kind of a 162 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: scary concept because it's the idea that humanity is not 163 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: important in a cosmic sense and uh, and that there 164 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: could be aliens that are visiting that that have no 165 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: interest in humanity at all. We're just a byproduct. And 166 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: now that's somewhat the trope of one of his novellas, 167 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: at the Mountains of Madness. And when I started to 168 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: read that, I have thought immediately of Prometheus, and I thought, wow, 169 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: those that's some far reaching tentacles, right, because of course 170 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: that that has colored the whole Alien franchise, right, But Prometheus, 171 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: if you guys remember and we did an episode on Prometheus, 172 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about Elizabeth Shaw and Charles Holloway that the 173 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: characters in it, they discover a star map among the 174 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: remnants of several ancient Earth cultures and they want to 175 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: seek the origins of humanity, and so they set out 176 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: on this adventure to the star system to try to 177 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: find the elder ones, the old ones. This is very 178 00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: much and I don't want to do any sort of 179 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: um plot spoilers here, but if you look at the 180 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: Mountains of Madness. You will see the same sort of 181 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: plot points in there, and it's amazing to see the 182 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: parallels there, even those so much time has passed. Yeah, 183 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, Galermo del Toro, who's been wanting 184 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: to make a film adaptation of the of at the 185 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: Mountains of Madness for some time, registered some disappointment when 186 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: Prometheus came out because he said, well, this means I'm 187 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: not I'm not gonna be able to get to make 188 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: my Mountains of Madness movie for you know, for another 189 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: decade or so, because they just hit some of the 190 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: major plot points. Yeah, which has got to be really frustrating. 191 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: But I will say I hope that he makes that 192 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: movie because if anybody's ever seen Hell Boy or Pants Labyrinth, 193 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: then you know that this is a director who brings 194 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: just this incredible visual element to the screen, not to 195 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: mention storytelling. So can you imagine this novella being directed 196 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: by Guiermo del Toro. I mean that would be an 197 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: amazing thing. Oh yeah, I mean you know that, even 198 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: even if he's covering an idea that's kind of a 199 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: little more on the just the pop end of the scale, 200 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: say Pacific rim Um, which was a fun movie, but 201 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: the dialogue was terrible. Idea was great. The idea it 202 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: was great. The monsters though, we're the best partner. Then 203 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: the robots were great too, but but still it was 204 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: it was art directed within an inch of its life. 205 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: And you know you're gonna get that with the Lermo 206 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: del Toro, no matter what the movie is like. And 207 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: and he you know, he tends to have his sort 208 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: of art to your pictures like Pan's Labyrinth. Uh, and 209 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: then he has his more action oriented pictures like Pacific 210 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: Rim like Blade too, which which I love as well. 211 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know you're gonna get something amazing looking, 212 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: some amazing creative ideas in his work. And you see 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: shades of Lovecraft resonating through a lot of what he does. Yeah, 214 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: and um, what I think would be exciting is that 215 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: perhaps del Toro would be able to bring out the 216 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: elements of science, the foundation of science that Lovecraft was 217 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: writing on, indeed, the science of Lovecraft. That's the topic 218 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: of the podcast here today, because certainly we can't go 219 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: through every story and talk about what was was incredible 220 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: about each one. We can't really dissect the man's life 221 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: in depth here, but one of the the interesting things 222 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: about him is that he did have this science background. 223 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: He was a science enthusiast from a very early age. 224 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: He was himself a science writer, wrote multiple articles a 225 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of on astronomy, published articles about astronomy and in 226 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: the sciences. Was very well read about the science, the 227 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: scientific theories of the day. Again, you know Darwin's natural selection, 228 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: Einstein's relativity, uh, some of the the the sprinklings of 229 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: quantum physics in the day. So if you look at 230 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: something like At the Mountains of Madness, you can really 231 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: see the evidence of Lovecraft's training and understanding of various 232 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: fields of science. And so it's really densely packed with information. Man, 233 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: at first I think it can be a little bit 234 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: off putting because it seems dry, but honestly, he gets 235 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: in there and he starts to put these little ominous 236 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: things in the text and really draw you in. So 237 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: if anybody wants to read that novella, I urge you too, 238 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: and just stay with it, because by the time you 239 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: get to part two, you will be firmly ensconced in 240 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: this world that he's built for you, with such fidelity, 241 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: in such detail that that's when I think one of 242 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: the things about successful fiction that really pulls you in 243 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: the ability to really set the time, in the place, 244 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: in the details. Yeah, it's a it's it's a really 245 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: incredible tale in those respects because you see the you 246 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: see elements of geology in it, you see elements of 247 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology, and this this idea of Antarctica is the 248 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: last unexplored region of the Earth. Because the story deals 249 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: with an Antarctic expedition into the unknown, and and and 250 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: exploring the unknown, the investigators end up finding something more 251 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: powerful and more troubling than they could have possibly imagined. 252 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: And he really is out this expedition in uh, in 253 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: depth to the point where you know you're reading it, 254 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: you really buy into the idea of it. Oh, this 255 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: is what it would take then to to actually conduct 256 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: this exploration in the early twentieth century. Yeah, you are 257 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: really seeing through the eyes of the narrator. And that's 258 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: what I love about successful fiction. And something even like 259 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: Virginia Wolves Orlando. I was thinking, these are starkly different texts, 260 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: but they have the thing in common in which it 261 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: is choccle block with detail that at first doesn't seem relevant, 262 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: but then you're realizing these are people who are world 263 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: building and trying to give you an understanding of this. So, anyway, 264 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: what do we do to uh, to talk about the 265 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: science of Lovecraft. We went to the expert. Yeah, that's right. Um, 266 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: we turned to the world's foremost authority on HP Lovecraft, 267 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: of man by the name of St. Joshi. In fact, 268 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: if you've ever read any number of weird fiction, pulp fiction, 269 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: genre fiction anthologies, you've likely run across this man's name 270 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: because he's He's written tons of introduction, he's to various anthologies, 271 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: he's edited anthologies. Um, he's been researching, writing, restoring, and 272 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: editing volumes of research on Lovecraft and related authors since 273 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties. He's also written pretty extensively on 274 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: atheism and race relations as well. So we reached out 275 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: to St. Joshi. He was gracious enough to chat with 276 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: us and discuss the science of love Craft. We're gonna 277 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: get to that interview after one quick break. All right, 278 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: we're back, let's get to the interview. Yes, we're gonna 279 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: talk with again with St. Joshi, the world's foremost authority 280 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: on HP Lovecraft. Thank you for joining us, Mr Joshi. UH. 281 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: My first question in addition to writing all of these 282 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: weird tales and ultimately influencing popular culture. Lovecraft was a 283 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: science writer. Tell us a little bit about Lovecraft, the 284 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: science writer and science enthusiasts. Sure, um, you know, really 285 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: was one of Lovecraft's earliest interest uh, starting even in 286 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: in his uh childhood years. Sure he uh you know, 287 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: he read some weird fiction like po And and The 288 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: Brothers Grimm and things like that when he was five 289 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: or six or seven years old. But by the time 290 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: he was eight, he had already discovered chemistry. He became 291 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: fascinated with chemistry. His mother bought him a chemistry set 292 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: and he was delighted to make little experiments with it. Then, 293 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: at the age of eleven, he discovered astronomy, and later 294 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: in life he says that that discovery of astronomy was 295 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: perhaps the most significant influence in his whole life in 296 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: terms of his philosophical attitude, because it opened up the 297 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: myriad worlds of of infinite space. Uh and and directly 298 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: let to that cosmic attitude that really defined both his 299 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: philosophy and his fiction. Uh. And he did a lot 300 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: of writing at that time. First, he did these little 301 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: handwritten uh little booklets or magazines, as he called them. UH. 302 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: He had a paper called the Scientific Gazette that began 303 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: as early as eighteen he was about nine years old, 304 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: that focus on chemistry. Later on, after he discovered astronomy, 305 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: he started something called the Rhode Island Journal of Astronomy 306 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: that came out usually every week sometimes then later every month, 307 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: full of interesting matter about science and and astronomy and 308 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the stars. Uh. And among his first published works were 309 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: scientific writings. As early nineteen o six, when he was 310 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: sixteen years old, he began two separate astronomy columns in 311 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: local newspapers in in the Providence Rhoe Island area UH 312 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: and one of them kept on for a couple of 313 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: years UH and still later on around ieen uh fourteen 314 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: he was twenty four, he started another series of astronomy 315 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: columns month, the columns telling people about, you know, what 316 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: they can expect to see in the course of the 317 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: month in terms of planets and stars and constellations and 318 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: other events like meteor showers and things like that. And 319 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: that went on for another four and a half years. 320 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: So his his scientific writing published and unpublished is pretty significant. 321 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: In your book, I Am Providence, The Life and Times 322 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: of HP. Lovecraft. You spend a good bit of time 323 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: discussing love Cross philosophy and metaphysics. So what inspired his worldview? Well, um, 324 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: there's two major influences. The philosophers of the eighteenth century, 325 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: people like Voltaire, Lametry and and others were pioneered the 326 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: philosophy of materialism and atheism. Lovecraft declaredan suf be an 327 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: atheist as early as the age of five. I think 328 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: that's maybe a little too early, but certainly by around 329 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: twelfth thirteen he claimed to be quite a determined atheist. Uh. 330 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: And the other major influence was the scientific writers and 331 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: philosophers of the nineteenth century. Love was very wealth attuned 332 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: to the scientific discoveries of of the later nineteenth century. 333 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: In particular, he was immensely influenced by Darwin's theory of evolution. 334 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: He may not have actually read Darwin's own writings, but 335 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: he's certainly read a lot of the writings of people 336 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: like Thomas Henry Huxley, who was Darwin's great proponent. In England, 337 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: he read a German philosopher and biologist named Ernst Heckel. 338 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: I believe that I was pronounced h A e c 339 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: k e l, who wrote a book called The Riddle 340 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: of the Universe. Uh. This came out in German in 341 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: eight and was translated the next year into English. And 342 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: that was a hugely influential book for love grass thinking 343 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: because it laid out a purely materialistic and purely atheistic 344 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: view of the cosmos. And that was tremendously influential to 345 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: lovegrass thinking. It's easy to read the works of Lovecraft 346 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: and simply lose yourself in the supernatural wonder of the stories. 347 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: I lord knows I did when I first read his 348 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: work back in high school. But Lovecraft lived and uh 349 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: and wrote in a time of great change. To what 350 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: extent did World War One and new advancements in relativity 351 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: and quantum theory affect his personal philosophy and his fiction. 352 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: Well it's funny. Uh. Lovecraft started writing weird fiction as 353 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: a teenager. He wrote some some juvenile stories that a 354 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: few of which still survive. Uh. They're not bad, they're 355 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: they're they're interesting to show his development, but they're they're 356 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: pretty minor. Uh. Then he gave up writing for a while, uh, 357 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: and started again in nineteen seventeen, right in the middle 358 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: of the war, just before America's entry into the war. 359 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: But he was following that conflict very carefully because as 360 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: a devoted Anglophile, he was very much enamored of England 361 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: and was a great devotee of the British Empire. He 362 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: wanted America to enter the war on the side of 363 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: what he called his blood brothers across the sea. Um Uh. 364 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: That that whole period was was really troubling the love ground. 365 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: He actually attempt to do enlist, not in the army 366 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: as such, but in the Rhode Island National Guard UH 367 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: and actually got enrolled momentarily, but then his mother pulled 368 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: some strings and had him withdrawn from there. But that 369 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: very One of the first stories he wrote was called Dagan, 370 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: which is set in in the war. It takes place 371 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: on the sea after a presumably a British soldier is 372 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: captured by the Germans on a boat and then escapes 373 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: on a rowboat and then UH encounters these this these 374 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: this horrible creature UH in the ocean. But you can 375 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: see how that war setting plays the critical role in 376 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: the story. But but more critical there is the fact 377 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: that that that story is really based on not so 378 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: much on Spiens, but on some conjectural advance of science. 379 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: That is to say, what love Fraff is postulating, there 380 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: is the discovery of an alien species lurking beneath the ocean. 381 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: There's really nothing supernatural in that particular story. That story 382 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: could actually have occurred. It's realistic in the sense of 383 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: depicting it's it's topography and the basic events in a 384 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: very realistic manner. So Lovecraft, in the course of his career, 385 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: danced between the supernatural and what might be called quasi 386 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: science fiction. He really was a kind of proto science 387 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: fiction writer right from the beginning of his career. And 388 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: in terms of of things like relativity, he was tremendously 389 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: affected by the Einstein theory of relativity, which he came 390 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: upon first or around nineteen twenty or thereabout, and then 391 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: by nineteen twenty three the theory had really been confirmed 392 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: by various experiments, and he was forced to accept it. Uh, 393 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: I'd say forced to accept it because the theory, of course, 394 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: really shook up the foundations of nineteenth century science, the 395 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: the the rather cock sure materialism of writers like Huxley 396 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and and and others of that period. UH and love 397 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: went through a period of turmoil where he had to 398 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: wrestle with the theories of relativity, with quantum theory with 399 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: UH and later the theories of of Heisenberg. UH, and 400 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: still try to maintain a basically materialist point of view. 401 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: And I think he successfully did it in the end, 402 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: but it really did affect his writing throughout the course 403 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: of nineteen twenties. In the Cannon of Love cust stories, 404 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: Which stories do you think standout? Is employing science the 405 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: most effectively, especially for the time period well to to 406 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 1: stand out in my mind and in my judgment, they 407 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: actually are among his best stories, if not the very best. 408 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: At the Mountains of Madness, Uh, this is a short 409 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: novel written nineteen thirty one, but it draws upon his 410 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: fascination with the Antarctic, going all the way back to 411 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: when he was about ten years old. He had become 412 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: fascinated with Antarctic exploration because right around that time, around 413 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred or thereabouts, Uh, there was a whole new 414 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: wave of scientific exploration that left left uped up on 415 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: what people like uh, you know, Scott and Amondson and 416 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: the number of these other explorers, and it fascinated him. 417 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: UH And for years he wanted to write a novel 418 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: or or a story about the Antarctic because really, UH, 419 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: that's content was perhaps the last genuinely unknown terrain it 420 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: left in the world. I mean, some of his other stories, 421 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: I said, in the wilds of Africa or the Middle East. 422 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: But Antarctica at that time was really almost untouched, and 423 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: so it allowed a vast expanse of of imagination unfettered 424 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: by reality or or or what was known about about 425 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: that area at the time. So finally, around nineteen thirty one, 426 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: he took up his pen and wrote this incredibly detailed 427 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: short novel about Antarctica. UH. But it becomes much more 428 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: than just a just an Antarctic novel. It becomes a 429 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: cosmic narrative, UH, detailing the the advent to this planet 430 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: of an alien species that established itself on Antarctica to 431 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: be sure, millions of years ago, but also throughout the 432 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: world UH, and engaged in battles with other species and 433 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: finally died out. Uh. It's a tremendous historical panorama that 434 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: really takes the entire universe as its backdrop rather than 435 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: just just the Earth. In a very similar way still 436 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: later uh novella called The Shadow Out of Time, it 437 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: does much the same thing, UH, here again. This one 438 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: is set chiefly in Australia in the in the Australian desert, 439 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: again a relatively unknown area at the time. UH and 440 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: again depicts an alien species that comes to the Earth. 441 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: But in this case, the alien species has not come physically. 442 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: It has come mentally. That is to say, it has 443 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: perfected the the ability to exchange its minds with the 444 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: minds of creatures over time. Uh. They can send their 445 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: minds forward through through time and inhabit the bodies of 446 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: other creatures. Uh. And the narrator of that story, UH, 447 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: a professor from Miskatonic University, experiences uh mental or psychic 448 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: possession by one of these alien alien creatures. Again, a 449 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: great deal of scientific erudition is incorporated with that story. Biology, physics, geology, anthropology, paleontology. 450 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: It is it is definitely a science fiction story. Infect 451 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: both those stories amounts of Madness and the shadow time 452 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: we're published in a science fiction pulp magazine, Astounding stories. 453 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: Reading his work, it really seems like he was a 454 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: man at the top of his talent right up until 455 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: illness overcame in. What's such a trajectory of his work? 456 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: What more would we have likely seen from Lovecraft, what 457 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: were his long term plans with his fiction? Lot first 458 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: started out as I'm writing stories in the late teens, 459 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: beginning nineteen seventeen, and then died in nineteen thirty seven. 460 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: So his career was really very short as as far 461 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: as fiction writers go, less than twenty years really speaking. 462 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: And in that period he wrote only about sixty stories, 463 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: of which maybe three are short novels. There are several 464 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: novellas UH and other short stories, so he really wrote 465 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: no full scale novel um. But throughout that whole period 466 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: has in the first ten years of his life he 467 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: basically alternated, as I mentioned, between fairly conventional supernaturalism and 468 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: a sort of budding UH interest in science science fiction, 469 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: or rather in the in the scientific justification or accountability 470 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: of his supernatural creations. Was a central year for Lovecraft, 471 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: because that's when he wrote the Call of Clue Do. 472 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: That's the first story in what later came to be 473 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: called the Clulu mythos. He never used that, by the way, 474 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: that was a term invented by one of his editors, 475 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: but nevertheless it's a convenient term to use for this 476 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: UH pseudo mythology that he devised and that dominated the 477 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: last decade of his writing. But as what we see 478 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: in that decade from up to his death is that 479 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: he wrote fewer stories but much longer ones. He required 480 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: a larger and larger canvas to convey his ideas. The 481 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: short story was no longer adequate to his purposes. He 482 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: wanted to write novellas and short novels oftes um because 483 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: he needed that expanse to to uh get across the 484 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: precision and detail that that dominated his later work. And 485 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: of course that later work is also dominated by by 486 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: this interest in science. I should have mentioned another key 487 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: story in this evolution, called the Colorado Space, which many people, 488 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: including himself I thought might have been his the very 489 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: best story he wrote from a purely artistic point of view. Uh. 490 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: That story also appeared in a science fiction magazine, Amazing 491 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Stories and deals with the meteorites that bear that that 492 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: apparently contained some very bizarre creatures that cause a kind 493 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: of withering of the of the landscape where this meteor lands. 494 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: Uh tremendously atmospheric piece. That's that's one critic felt anticipated 495 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: the effects of atomic radiation. Of course that's purely accidental, 496 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, it gets to the idea of the scientific 497 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: elements underpinning that story. The problem with no Draft is 498 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: that his later work, these long novellas, tended to be 499 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: unsuitable for publication in the pulp magazines. They were so 500 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: far beyond what conventional pulp editors wanted that they many 501 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: of them were rejected. At the Mounts of Madness was 502 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: rejected by Weird Tales of the pulp magazine that add 503 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: up to that time published most of his stories because 504 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: the editor felt it was simply probably beyond the power 505 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: of his readers to understand it uh and that it 506 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: couldn't be easily divided into sections and things like that. 507 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: And love Fraff took these rejections very hard and actually 508 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: ended up writing less and less with the passage of time, 509 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and and lost confidence in his work. If 510 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: he had lived on beyond ninety seven, I think his 511 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: work would have become still more scientific, and probably would 512 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: have he probably would have written for full length novels, 513 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: perhaps for paperback publishers or or science fiction magazines. The 514 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: problem with Lovefraff in his time was that his work 515 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: was not really suited to the markets that would accept him. 516 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: The mainstream markets were simply not interested in this kind 517 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: of work. They had determined that any kind of fantasy 518 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: or horror or science fiction was somehow to literary. So 519 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: he was not going to get published in places like 520 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: Saturday Evening Post or Atlantic Monthly or Harper's. Uh. He 521 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: had to publish in the pulp magazines, and even they 522 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: started acting his work because again, it just went beyond 523 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: their formulaic conceptions. If Marcus had emerged in Lovecrafts later 524 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,479 Speaker 1: in love you know, in the forties, uh, that might 525 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: have accommodated love grass work. He probably would have done 526 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: very well. Now we can go back for a second. 527 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: How does how does one pronounce the name of the entity? Yes, yes, well, 528 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: the pronunciation you just gave is has become pretty standard. 529 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: But Lovecraft declares in a letter of nineteen thirty four 530 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: to some friend of his that the pronunciation is actually 531 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: only two syllables. That T is not pronounced as a tg, 532 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: is pronounced as a kind of guttural l uh. He 533 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: actually renders it as c l's you l you clue Lou, 534 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: and you have to sort of cough or market out. 535 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: A lot of people don't pronounce it that way because 536 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: it seems counterintuitive to do so, but nevertheless, that is 537 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: how he apparently pronounced it. But of course he says, well, 538 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, this word, this name is not meant to 539 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: be pronounced by human vocal corps, so no human could 540 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: ever give anything but an approximate pronunciation of it. That's 541 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: actually kind of comforting to me, given how how commercial 542 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: Cthulhu has become. I mean you see see it on 543 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: T shirts in the form of plush dolls. Well, yes, 544 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: there's been a tremendous commercialization of Klulu and and and 545 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: a sort of u expansion of of that name and 546 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: that concept into the popular culture. I dare say a 547 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: love Grave would have amused by it. But the and 548 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: if it's you know, if it brings more attention to 549 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: the love Craft, well and good. The funny thing is 550 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: that Lulu the entity is actually a fairly minor god 551 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: or creature in the entire panoply of love Crafts pseudo mythology. 552 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: There are much more powerful entities in his stories than that, 553 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: and Clu only figures really in one story, the Call 554 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: of Clulu. You have other entities like Yao and as 555 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: a thought, and Nilasita and Shovnigrov and all these other 556 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: creatures who actually in many ways are more interesting, uh 557 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: and certainly are more powerful in the narratives in which 558 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: they appear, but they don't have quite the cachet of Lulu, 559 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: so they don't get quite the attention. Why do you 560 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: think that is why has Catulu become such a pop 561 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: culture Darling? Well, I think the name has something to 562 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: do with it. It is such a bizarre name, uh 563 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: that that you know, and as we've just discovered, nobody 564 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: really knows how to pronounce it. Nobody can pronounce it 565 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: really correctly. Um. It has a sort of magic aura 566 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: to it that the people apparently find fascinating. I will 567 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: say that the term with Clulu mythos was coined by 568 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: August Derleth now that he was Lovecraft's posthumous editor and 569 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: his friend. He corresponded with love Graft over about a 570 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: ten year period um, and he felt that that term 571 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: was appropriate to designate those stories that used this mythology, 572 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: because it was in the call of Cluu that the 573 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: mythology was first expounded in a tailed way. Some people 574 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: feel that that that term is misleading bit precisely because 575 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: Toulu is not really the major entity, but because Derluth 576 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: sort of gave the staff of approval to it, and 577 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: because he himself was lovecraft publisher for many years, that 578 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: term eventually caught on, first in a sort of limited 579 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: way among Lovecraft devotees, and then when Lovecraft became hugely 580 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: popular in the nineties seventies, the term that just took off. 581 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: In your book, I believe you mentioned that Lovecraft referred 582 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: to this mythos is author. Yes, he never, he never 583 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: gave it a name. Um. In fact, Derluth, writing to 584 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: Lovecraft and a tame thirty one, uh, suggested, why don't 585 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: you call this the mysthology of Hosteur a name? And 586 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: we don't even know if it's an entity or a 587 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: place or whatever mentioned once in Lovecraft in The Whisper 588 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: and Darkness. Uh. And in fact, that name is borrowed 589 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: from Robert W. Chambers, who wrote The King in Yellow 590 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: and who himself borrowed it from Rose Bears. Uh. And 591 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: love Graff said, well, you know that's that name doesn't 592 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: really uh convey what I wanted to convey. But he 593 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 1: never determined on a name for this, uh, this whole 594 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: mythology himself. He yeah, whimsically called it yaks as authority 595 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: at one point. But it shows that that he was 596 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: not concerned with with naming it, and he also was 597 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: not concerned in mapping it out precisely. This mythology evolved 598 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: very radically in the course of his UH last ten 599 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: years of his life and changed significantly from from one 600 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: story to the other. He was did not feel bound 601 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: to be necessarily consistent UH in referring to these names 602 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: and entities from one story to the other. UH, And 603 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: and that drove some later writers and critics crazy because 604 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: they wanted that kind of consistency. But love I've realized 605 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: that that's you know, to make it too consistent, too 606 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: specifics would would rob it of its of its UH power. 607 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: As an imagine, to stimulant UH, it had to remain 608 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: mysterious and unknown and covert for our listeners and readers 609 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: interested in horror. What summer reading selections would you recommend? 610 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: There's so many, um. I. When I first got into Lovecraft, 611 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: I became interested in some of the writers that he 612 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: liked UH and was influenced by. He was very well 613 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: read in the field of supernatural or weird fiction. In fact, 614 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: he wrote a little treatise about it called Supernatural horror 615 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: and literature, which himself is worth reading as a very 616 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: interesting historical account of of of that field from you know, 617 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: the dawn of literature up to his own day. And 618 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: he was tremendously influenced by writers as diverse as Arthur Mackin, 619 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: the great Welsh writer of horror fiction, who really wrote 620 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: mostly the eighteen nineties uh and wrote some tremendously powerful 621 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: work about about horrible creatures on the underside of civilization, 622 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: and that that was a tremendous influence on Lovecraft. He 623 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: was a Lovedraft was very taken with the fantasy writer 624 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: Lord Stunsany, the Irish writer who wrote tales of fantasy 625 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: in an imaginary world setting, not horror at all, really speaking, 626 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: but but beautiful works of fantasy. I myself have a 627 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: great admiration for Dunsany, and I think he was one 628 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: of the one of the great writers of our field. 629 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: Algernon Blackwood, the English writer, wrote the stories like the Willows, 630 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: which Lovecraft thought was the best story, best weird tale 631 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: ever writs, and I'm not entirely sure he's wrong about 632 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: that tremendously atmospheric piece about these two people who sailed 633 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: down with Dan you've been a canoe and encounter bizarre 634 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: creatures along the way. And of course his great American 635 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: predecessors Edgar Allan Poe and Ambrose Bears are always worth reading. 636 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: And some writers subsequent to Lovecraft have done some tremendous work. 637 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: I just mentioned Kitlin Kiernan. I think she is perhaps 638 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: the leading writer of weird fiction of her generation, a 639 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: tremendously talented writer, both in the short story and in 640 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: the novel. An older writer, although still working, is Ramsey Campbell, 641 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: the British writer who started writing Lovecraft pastiches in the 642 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties but then evolved into a a really profound 643 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: writer of weird fiction, with volumes like Demons by Daylight 644 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: and Waking Nightmares. Uh, you can't go wrong by reading 645 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: anything of Campbell's he is always on the top of 646 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: his game. In terms of science fiction. What volumes might 647 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: our listeners seek out for the sort of less known 648 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: sci fi wonders? I've been interested in how lovecrav may 649 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: have influenced some later science fiction writers. That the evidence 650 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: is fairly scant, but some writers do come to mind. Uh. 651 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: Fritz Lieber, who who wrote science fiction, fantasy and horror, 652 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: did corresponded with Lovecraft for just about a year right 653 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: at the end of Lovecraft's life and and after that, 654 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: and he was clearly was was hugely influenced by That's 655 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: that that association UM and the fact he had its 656 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: later on that Lovecraft and Shakespeare were his two great 657 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: influences in terms of the development of his early writing. UH. 658 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: And and one of the first books that Libra published 659 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: was a short story collection called Knights Black Agents, which 660 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: has some great great stories in it, UH, several of 661 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: which were were significantly influenced by Lovecraft, but at the 662 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: same guy remained really original U contributions. The Libra then 663 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: wrote this uh short novel called Conjure Wife, which is 664 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: about witchcraft in the modern day, and that that bears 665 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: some Lovecraft influence. UH. Love Craft road a story called 666 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: The Dreams in the Witch House, which talks about a 667 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: witch who develops these uh scientific powers and possibly transports 668 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: herself into the fourth dimension. And I think Libra picked 669 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: up some clues from that. UH. There has been some 670 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: influence of Lovecraft, apparently on Arthur C. Clark and Philip K. 671 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: Dick UH. Some some recent scholarship has investigated that that 672 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: influence so that's all very interesting to me. Now for 673 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: listeners who are interested in checking out your own work, 674 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: what do you have coming out in the immediate future 675 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: that our readers and listeners might want to check out? Well? UM, 676 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: I was happy to compile a volume called American Supernatural 677 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: Tales back in two thousand seven for Playman Classics. This 678 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: is This was a an anthology of trying to give 679 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: a sense of the history of supernatural writing in this country, 680 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: starting with Washington, irving at the early nineteenth century, and 681 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: going all the way up to the present day. In fact, 682 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: I think Caitlin Kiernan was the last author I included, 683 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: but I certainly have writers like UH, Paul and Beers 684 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: and Robert W. Chambers and Lovecraft and UH, Mary Wilkins 685 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: Freeman and Edith Wharton, Henry James UH, and all the 686 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: way up to people like Ray Bradbury, Richard Matheson, UH 687 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: and a number of others. I think that was a 688 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: pretty good UH piece of and that that book, along 689 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: with UH, was one of the books that was reprinted 690 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: in a series that Penguin reprinted under the title under 691 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: the series title UH Penguin Horror, which had a long 692 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: introduction by Yamo del Toro, UH, and those books are 693 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: worth getting just for his introduction. Del Toro has a 694 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: tremendous feel for horror and a tremendous knowledge of the 695 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 1: whole range of horror fiction early and and recent. UM. 696 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: And he's written a very long introduction to that book 697 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: and the other books in that series. UM. I just 698 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: completed a history of supernatural fiction starting with Gilgameshin going 699 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: up to to today. That was that came out in 700 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: two volumes a year or two ago out of the 701 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: title Unutterable Horror UH, and it's going to come out 702 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: in paperback later this summer. I'm working on yet another 703 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: new edition of Lovecraft. I should explain that one of 704 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: the first things I did as a Lovecraft scholar back 705 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,439 Speaker 1: when I was uh in my twenties actually, and even 706 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: even a little earlier than that, when I was at 707 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: Brown University as an undergraduate. At Brown University, UH, the 708 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: library wholes lovecrafts most of Lovecraft's papers and manuscripts. And 709 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: as I investigated those, I found that the standard editions 710 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: of Lovecraft stories as published by Arkham House uh and 711 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: and end in paperback, were full of errors, textual errors, 712 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: typographical errors, whatnot. And I spent years cleaning up those texts, 713 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: and I produced new editions of Lovecraft using corrective texts 714 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and I've been sort of thinkering 715 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: with those editions ever since. But I'm going to build 716 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,240 Speaker 1: a new edition now in which all the textual variants 717 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: are actually listed. That's what it's called a very Hormam edition. 718 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: And I think it's very interesting to see how Lovecraft 719 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: stories were sort of mangled by by magazines and book 720 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: publishers in the course of of their of their literary life. 721 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: So that's coming out in three volumes from a publisher 722 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: called Hippocampus Press, and I'm doing some interesting work for 723 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: a specially president Colorado called Centipede Press. I started what 724 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 1: it's called a Library a Weird Fiction, in which each 725 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: of these volumes are large collections of the best writings 726 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: of major horror writers like Blackwood, like mac and like 727 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: William Hope Hodge them a great British writer who's now 728 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: coming into his own UH and Lovecraft and po. I 729 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: believe those are the first volumes of that series, and 730 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: I can't do many more finds of that sort, and 731 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: that gives readers a comprehensive view of the major writings 732 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: of these of these coviews. So the reps of our 733 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: interview with St. Joe, She and UH. I definitely want 734 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: to check out that anthology because it's got that history 735 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: of supernatural writing. I mean, everybody from Po Chase Lovecraft, 736 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: of course, Edith Wharton, Henry James, Richard Matheson, also Joyce, 737 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,720 Speaker 1: Carol Oates, and Caitlyn cren In. So if anybody's interested 738 00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: in that, I think that would be that seems like 739 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: a really great place to start for a foundation in 740 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: sci fi and horror. Indeed, indeed, I know that after 741 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: the interview, I was adding some items to my to 742 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: my kindled list online, so that stuff that I I 743 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: haven't checked out yet that I really must. So I've 744 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: already taken some time to discuss my history with Lovecraft's 745 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: work and UH and some of the stories that I'm 746 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: particularly fond off. You have discussed your your initial immersion 747 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: into the world of HP Lovecraft. But here at the 748 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: House Stuff Works office, we have actually several co workers 749 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: who are really into Lovecrafts work, that have been really 750 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: inspired by it, and they're big fans. So we reached 751 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: out to a few of them to share their personal 752 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: favorite tales from lovecrafts Cannon, as well as some some 753 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: other thoughts on the man. So so let's hear from 754 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: some of our co workers. Hi. There, This is Josh Clark, 755 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: co host of the Stuffy Snow podcast and the Lovecraft 756 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: store that I picked is called The Case of Charles 757 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: dexter Ward. Not only is it my favorite Lovecraft story, 758 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: it may be my favorite work of all horror fiction 759 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: of all time. Back in Lovecraft Road a lengthy essay, 760 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: kind of a treatise on what horror is called supernatural 761 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: horror and literature, and in it he essentially chronicles what's 762 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: made us humans afraid, from the druids fertility rights to 763 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 1: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, to the writers of his day like 764 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 1: Aldern in Blackwood, who, if you're not familiar with him, 765 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: will surely delight you when you settle down finally to 766 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: read one of his Haunted House stories. Perhaps because supernatural 767 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,919 Speaker 1: horror and literature is so dense and even scholarly, I've 768 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: never done more than Skimmitt. By the way, the best 769 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,240 Speaker 1: known line is the first sentence, the oldest and strongest 770 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest 771 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: kind of fear is fear of the unknown. You can 772 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: put that on it shirt, you know. It's kind of 773 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: a funny thesis for Lovecraft in particular to have, because 774 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: if ever there was a writer who paid out in 775 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: his introduction just about everything you needed to know about 776 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: what's going to take place in the rest of the story, 777 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: it was Howard Phillips Lovecraft. He loved to tease his readers, 778 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: always in every work, giving away everything at the beginning. 779 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: And when you read him you get the sense almost 780 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: that he believes he still maintains control over the secret 781 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: information to follow. But you continue reading anyway, even though 782 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: you know what's coming. You generally know how things will 783 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: turn out, what eldritch cosmic horror will be at work, 784 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: whether it's gonna be Witchcraft, the old Ones, Cathulu, vampires, 785 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: fish people, or whatever, and usually who will die. And 786 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: yet Lovecraft is such a great author that he doesn't 787 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: need that mystery. He has imagination in the details, and 788 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: he makes you want to bathe in the tissue he 789 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 1: uses to fill in the skeleton he constructs in the 790 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: introduction of his stories. And this is the case Charles 791 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: Dexter Award. The reader has a pretty good idea of 792 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: what weird thing will befall the protagonist. Chapters before Lovecraft 793 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: reveals the horrible truth in his characteristic mounting flourish, and 794 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: even when the truth is finally revealed, the cosmic horrors 795 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: of the fairly pedestrian variety, at least as far as 796 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 1: Lovecraft goes. But still, The Case of Charles Dexter Award 797 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: sucks you into every one of its fifty one thousand 798 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: words and has it all. It's perhaps as close to 799 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: a made for film story as lovecrafts ever created, and 800 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: he is notoriously unfilmable, as is evidenced by most of 801 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: the attempts to adapt his stories into film proof. The 802 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,760 Speaker 1: story has a gumshoe family, physician, historical investigation, a masked 803 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: mob of local tufts, simultaneous action scenes taking place as 804 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: the climax mounts. It has everything. I could go on, 805 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: of course, but I wouldn't want to give away too 806 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: much of the story. I just say, read the Case 807 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: of Charles Dexter Award and you will be entertained. Hi 808 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: am Holly Fry from stuff he missed in history class, 809 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,240 Speaker 1: and I love Lovecraft. Uh. One of my very favorites 810 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: is The Color Out of Space and this was a 811 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,800 Speaker 1: short story that Lovecraft wrote right after he finished The 812 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: Case of Charles Dexter Award, so this was in And 813 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that really makes this singular, particularly 814 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: for the time, is that Lovecraft wanted to create an 815 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: alien uh entity in a book that was not humanoid 816 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 1: in form. They didn't look like humans. We don't understand them. 817 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: They are truly alien in every way. And the story 818 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: never you know, really uh conveys to the reader what 819 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: the goals or the intent of this extraterrestrial entity r 820 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: which makes it sort of really fascinating. And what really 821 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,320 Speaker 1: ends up being portrayed is sort of how this rural 822 00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: community deals with a completely incomprehensible thing that they just 823 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: they have no way to define what it is or 824 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: comprehend what it is. They're just sort of dealing with 825 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: it and fearful of it. And you know, it's told 826 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 1: in that layered form that he often uses, where there's 827 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: a narrator who is a professional who goes looking for 828 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: this story about this place which is in the in 829 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: Massachusetts outside of Arkham, and you know, he finds this 830 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: elderly gentleman who is the only one that knows the tale, 831 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: and so it's it's layered in terms of who is 832 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,760 Speaker 1: telling the narrative, and it's just a really beautiful story 833 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,360 Speaker 1: of sort of the creepiness of people learning to cope 834 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: with a thing that they have no tools to cope with. 835 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: And that is why I love it. So hey, there, 836 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,319 Speaker 1: this is Jonathan Strickland with the Tech Stuff podcast. And 837 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 1: when I was approached late one Eldridge evening by a 838 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 1: gibbering blab of stuff that I couldn't identify nor would 839 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: my brain allow me to think on for more than 840 00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: a second before going totally mad, I realized that needed 841 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: to talk about my favorite Lovecraft story, At the Mountains 842 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,280 Speaker 1: of Madness. Now, I'm a big fan of Cthulhu in general, 843 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: and that character was introduced in the Call of Cthulhu 844 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: short story. We get to hear a little bit more 845 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: about Cathulho's followers in At the Mountains of Madness, and 846 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: it helps set up the elements that would become the 847 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: cornerstone of the Cthulhu mythos which a lot of writers 848 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,320 Speaker 1: have built on over the years. This is stuff that 849 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: Lovecraft kind of established, but didn't really um flesh out 850 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,319 Speaker 1: until other writers came along and added to it. So 851 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,359 Speaker 1: some of the elements include the introduction of the elder Ones. Now, 852 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: Lovecraft was fascinated with this idea of ancient races that 853 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: came to Earth well before humans ever evolved, and they 854 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: ruled the planet for eons before we showed up. In 855 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: this case, the elder Ones are pretty much the oldest 856 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: of the versions that we get, because you've got ancient ones, 857 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: you have old ones, and then elder ones pretty easy 858 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: to to confuse. In this case, you actually get some 859 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: backstory about the fact that these elder Ones had conflicts 860 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 1: with other ancient entities, these Cthulhu spawn, because you have 861 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 1: this Antarctic expedition that uncovers evidence of a society of 862 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,280 Speaker 1: these elder Ones, and they're higheroglyphs that tell the story 863 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: about their conflict with the Cathulho spawn, as well as 864 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: other elements that that show up in the Cthulhu mythos. So, 865 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: while the story itself is fascinating, what I really love 866 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,280 Speaker 1: about it is that it became this jumping off point 867 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: for all these other authors to kind of add to 868 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: this mythology and expand it and you get lots of 869 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: references to classic Lovecraft elements, things like Miss Katonic University 870 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,439 Speaker 1: and the Necronomicon and Cathulhu and shog Offs and all 871 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,800 Speaker 1: of this kind of weird stuff that together has created 872 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,839 Speaker 1: this rich mytholo g So if you have not read 873 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: At the Mountains of Madness, you should definitely check that out. Also, 874 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: keep your fingers crossed, because Guillermo del Toro has been 875 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,240 Speaker 1: trying to make a movie version based off this novella 876 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: for years. From why I understand, he's going to make 877 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: one more attempt because all of his tries previously have 878 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: fallen short, and he he really wants to make this, 879 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,080 Speaker 1: so he wants to make one more try in making it, 880 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,640 Speaker 1: and if that happens, we're gonna have some pretty mind 881 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: bending stuff to watch. So I'm holding out hope you 882 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: should too. Hi. I'm Christian Seger. I write and host 883 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: shows like brain Stuff and Stuff of Genius here at 884 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works, and I also write comic books in 885 00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: the horror genre. And one thing that people like to 886 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 1: talk about in horror, especially supernatural horror, is that they 887 00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,399 Speaker 1: categorize it into three areas. Stephen King in particular, does 888 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: this in his book Don's macab about how horror literature 889 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: is written, and you see it in a lot of 890 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: literary criticism as well. And the idea is that these 891 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,279 Speaker 1: three areas can be narrowed down to the vampire, the 892 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,480 Speaker 1: thing without a name, which is often Frankenstein, or the werewolf. 893 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: But when literal a criticism like this talks about horror, 894 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: it often leaves out HP Lovecraft's great contribution, which is 895 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: cosmic horror, which does not fall into any of these 896 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: three categories. Basically, the idea is that we as human 897 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: beings like to think of ourselves as important. We like 898 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: to think that we're at the top of the food chain, 899 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 1: but maybe we're not. Maybe there's something out there that's 900 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 1: bigger than us and we're insignificant. So I'm going to 901 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 1: talk about the Lovecraft story The Shadow out of Time, 902 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,799 Speaker 1: and I'm going to talk about it in conjunction with 903 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: this really interesting book about HP Lovecraft called Lovecraft Against 904 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,239 Speaker 1: the World, Against Life, and it's by Michelle Wellbeck, who 905 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: is like a French postmodern author. Briefly, I'm gonna summarize 906 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,919 Speaker 1: the Shout out of Time. Uh. In it, a man 907 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 1: forgets everything that's happened to him for the last five years, 908 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 1: and during that time he seems to have been possessed 909 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: by some kind of consciousness that isn't his own. This 910 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 1: consciousness seems to be seeking out occult knowledge the entire 911 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: time that it's in possession of his body. And when 912 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,040 Speaker 1: he regains his identity, he starts dreaming about these weird, 913 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: intelligent creatures that live in these giant underground cities that 914 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,400 Speaker 1: have been collecting knowledge across space and time basically forever. 915 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: He locates one of these cities, he actually finds it 916 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: beneath Australia, and he finds evidence that, first of all, 917 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 1: that he was possessed by one of these creatures from 918 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: across time, and second that the creatures that lived there 919 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: themselves were actually killed off by another, even more powerful 920 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 1: and terrifying species of monster. And these later monsters he 921 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: discovers are still alive somewhere beneath the earth. So that's 922 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: the basic gist of the Shadow out of Time. The 923 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,799 Speaker 1: things that are really interesting about it thematically that tie 924 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,799 Speaker 1: into cosmic horror, the idea that your mind and your 925 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 1: body are not your own, and that they have been displaced, 926 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, across time and space. Uh. Then the creatures 927 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 1: that do this, they're called Gythians in the story. Whatever 928 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: killed them is still here, even they are not fully 929 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: invulnerable to you know, the horrors of the universe. Uh. 930 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,279 Speaker 1: And if we're nothing to them, then how insignificant would 931 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 1: we be to their enemies. The human race basically disappears 932 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,680 Speaker 1: at the end of this story, the ideas that they 933 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: will be destroyed and Earth will you know, be home 934 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,279 Speaker 1: to a new set of monsters. Well Beck looks into 935 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: this and he says, if other beings existed, we would 936 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,840 Speaker 1: be like rabbits to them. He actually says, like we 937 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: would basically be either food or even worse, they would 938 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,920 Speaker 1: kill us simply for fun, the same way that we 939 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,920 Speaker 1: do for small animals. Possibly the best case scenario is 940 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 1: that they would dissect us. Here's a quote from The 941 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: Shadow out of Time that I think really ties into 942 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 1: the cosmic horror thing. Man must be prepared to accept 943 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: notions of the cosmos and of his own place in 944 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: the seething vortex of time whose merest mention is paralyzing. Now. 945 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,440 Speaker 1: Welbeck looks at this and he says, Lovecraft's whole thing 946 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: is that everything disappears. Humans are basically as important as 947 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,799 Speaker 1: the elementary particles of the universe. Everything is essentially just electrons, 948 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 1: even these monstrous entities that travel through time and space 949 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,720 Speaker 1: and are able to mess with this one man's life 950 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 1: so importantly. Um it's their discovery that, you know, his 951 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: discovery really that he has no power to affect any 952 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,680 Speaker 1: change in the vast, huge, incomprehensible universe all around him, 953 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,719 Speaker 1: and that in itself can be way more terrifying than 954 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: a vampire or werewolf or Frankenstein. In the shadow of Time, 955 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 1: there's constant reference to this vast library of knowledge that 956 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 1: the Athians have. It's far beyond anything we as human 957 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 1: beings could comprehend. And the narrator actually like remembers through 958 00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,399 Speaker 1: dreams and nightmares this vast knowledge that he was able 959 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 1: to tap into while he was possessed. And what's interesting 960 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,840 Speaker 1: about this is it also ties into the cosmic horror 961 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,359 Speaker 1: thing and that it looks at human beings as being 962 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:14,400 Speaker 1: particularly insignificant in the larger scheme of intergalactic existence. Perhaps 963 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,560 Speaker 1: we're just a small species that's projecting our own, you know, 964 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: mental identity onto the universe. But really we're just susceptible 965 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,720 Speaker 1: to being wiped out at any moment. Well Beck looks 966 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: at this as well, and he says that HP Lovecraft 967 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: hated realism. For Lovecraft, the real world was too much, 968 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,040 Speaker 1: and well Back even goes so far as to say 969 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,200 Speaker 1: that for most of us that read any fiction at all, 970 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 1: we do not love life. He says that there's a 971 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: comfort to reading Lovecraft if you're sick of the real world, 972 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,600 Speaker 1: if you're sick of life. And I think that that's 973 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,640 Speaker 1: really interesting. I don't know if I'd go that far, 974 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: but it's kind of fascinating. There's something beautifully is zen 975 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: about this idea too, that that the world is too 976 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,840 Speaker 1: much for us, so we turned to this uh fantastic 977 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 1: horror that's created in order to sort of balance ourselves 978 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,439 Speaker 1: again our placed in the universe. And there's a letter 979 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: to Bell map Long that HP Lovecraft wrote, and Wellbeck 980 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: actually got to take a look at it, and in 981 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: it he wrote too Long. He said, I do not 982 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,200 Speaker 1: think any realism is beautiful. So it's pretty well confirmed 983 00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 1: that he was not into the real world at all. 984 00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,400 Speaker 1: He wasn't into materialism. He was he lived his life 985 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 1: through his stories. Uh so, yeah, that's the gist of it. 986 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,560 Speaker 1: The Shadow of Time, I think is a great look 987 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:34,120 Speaker 1: at the importance of how Lovecraft uses cosmic horror to 988 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,919 Speaker 1: show human insignificance in the genre. Uh, and that supernatural 989 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: horror isn't just those three genres. Those are great genres 990 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 1: and and we've gotten lots of stories and films out 991 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,920 Speaker 1: of them. But Lovecraft has really made a great contribution 992 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: to the genre by you know, creating this whole well 993 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,880 Speaker 1: of stories. And there was an entire group of writers 994 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,560 Speaker 1: that worked with Lovecraft, and even after he passed away, 995 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: ended up writing stories within his own mythos to keep 996 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: this theme going. So we may like to think of 997 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: ourselves as important, we may like to think of ourselves 998 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: as being at the top of the food chain, but 999 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,040 Speaker 1: stop and think about it for not what if we 1000 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: weren't all right? So there you have some some good 1001 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,840 Speaker 1: stuff there, some some solid recommendations from our fellow how 1002 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,680 Speaker 1: stuff workers. And thanks again to St. Jo She for 1003 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,920 Speaker 1: taking the time to speak with us. And if you 1004 00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,000 Speaker 1: guys are interested in finding out more about his works 1005 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,360 Speaker 1: and his writings, you can go to St joe She 1006 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: dot org. Indeed, and then you know, you can also 1007 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,480 Speaker 1: always just go to Amazon throwing St. Jo she and 1008 00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: you can see all the various works that he's he's 1009 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 1: been involved in, either as an editor or just stuff 1010 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: supplying a very informative introduction. So there you have it, 1011 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft, the science writer as well as the horror 1012 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,960 Speaker 1: and science fiction writer. UM. I thought it was pretty fascinating. 1013 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,920 Speaker 1: Uh and thanks well, thanks Doulie for letting me explore 1014 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,160 Speaker 1: this in an episode. Thank you for the immersion. I 1015 01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,400 Speaker 1: don't really I'm really excited. This is definitely what in 1016 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 1: my appetite for our summer reading. Um. And that's gonna 1017 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 1: be coming up in a future episode in which we 1018 01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,600 Speaker 1: will recommend some books and we'll have some other staff 1019 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,520 Speaker 1: recommendations as well. That's right as a summer tradition, so 1020 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: look for that in the weeks ahead. In the meantime, 1021 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,360 Speaker 1: if you want to check out more of our content, 1022 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,720 Speaker 1: be sure to visit stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1023 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,720 Speaker 1: As always, that is the mothership. That is where you'll 1024 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,840 Speaker 1: find all of our blog posts, all of our videos, 1025 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,040 Speaker 1: all of our all of our episodes, everything that we do. Uh. 1026 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,600 Speaker 1: And there if you do a search for Lovecraft in 1027 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,520 Speaker 1: the search bar, you'll find a various blog post that 1028 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:41,360 Speaker 1: I've written over the years that at least slightly involve 1029 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: the man in his work. Um, check us out on 1030 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler, and uh, 1031 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's an old fashioned way of getting in 1032 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: touch with us as well. That's right. You can send 1033 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,360 Speaker 1: us an email and you can do that at blow 1034 01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com. For more 1035 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,520 Speaker 1: on MISS and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff 1036 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:11,520 Speaker 1: works dot com