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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined this morning with the beautiful, talented, brilliant Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: See okay, A, that was that your normal wind up?

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Speaker 2: You have no energy. I like that because when the

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Speaker 2: other person has no energy, I can pounce upon them,

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Speaker 2: and I can shred them much more easily when they

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Speaker 2: don't fight it back. But also, this is a surprise

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Speaker 2: everyone because unlike every other single time ever we have

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Speaker 2: done Crime Roundup, Cheryl has not discussed the topic hand

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Speaker 2: of time. So this is a surprise, which I don't like.

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Speaker 3: It is a surprise.

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Speaker 2: The big surprise.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, Happy Mother's Day weekend.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe it.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: Let me guess what John, David and Lucy got you

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Speaker 1: tickets to the Lukejimony Musical.

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Speaker 2: Well not yet. Surprisingly they don't. They don't know that

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Speaker 2: much about him. I don't know. Actually, if I said

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Speaker 2: his name, they would know about it, because it kept

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Speaker 2: coming up on TikTok. I'm sorry to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a musical, can you imagine?

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Speaker 2: I have a question for you. Yesterday we did our

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Speaker 2: normal chauffeur from the courthouse on Thursdays we normally gave

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Speaker 2: to the courthouse where Sean Combs aka Diddy is being tried.

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Speaker 2: But I did an MSM Mary Street media show and

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Speaker 2: a YouTube program. And I'm just making sure that you

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Speaker 2: saw the utube program that posted last night.

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Speaker 3: I saw you and Lauren Conlin.

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Speaker 2: You're such a big liar. You did not watch it.

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Speaker 3: Exactly what Lauren Codlin had on.

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Speaker 2: You know what, it's so easy to cross examine you.

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Speaker 3: It's not okay.

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Speaker 2: Do you have on?

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Speaker 1: He had on a green dresser, hair was down and long,

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Speaker 1: and she had all this just tremendously beautiful colored lipstick.

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Speaker 3: She looked flawless.

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Speaker 2: She has on a pink top with an unusual neckline.

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Speaker 2: To objection, you know, I'm color blind. So that's you're out,

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Speaker 2: because I've got a very unique banner that I made

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Speaker 2: up myself. Did he need a dip because he has

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Speaker 2: because he has for a bathroom break. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: couldn't ignore that.

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Speaker 3: He did not ignore that.

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Speaker 2: Man man up.

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Speaker 1: Oh goodness goodness. Yeah, he pled guilty on all all

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Speaker 1: the charges. He's done nothing, he has, It's all over down.

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Speaker 1: I picked anybody hadn't cross be teened anybody? He didn't

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Speaker 1: you know, slip anybody some drugs they were aware of.

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Speaker 1: He's done nothing wrong, nothing at all. Now tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think of the latest in the courtroom. I

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Speaker 1: can't wait to hear this for did.

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Speaker 2: He I same? You're referring to Sean Comes, hadn't they?

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Speaker 2: Y'all were on a nickname.

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Speaker 3: Since you mean Buffy Puff Daddy.

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Speaker 2: You know exactly how to drive me crazy, don't you.

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Speaker 3: It's one of my favorite things to do.

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Speaker 1: But listen, now, I don't know that much about what's

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Speaker 1: going on except he has plaied not guilty. I have

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Speaker 1: been so busy this week. I've had visitors from the

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Speaker 1: State Department. I have had training. I've had simulator training,

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Speaker 1: so I have been a little out of pocket simulator training.

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Speaker 2: What's that?

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Speaker 3: Listen?

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Speaker 1: It is a screened floor to ceiling where you are

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Speaker 1: put in real life scenarios where you're told there's.

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Speaker 3: An incident going on in a bar, and when.

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Speaker 1: You walk into the bar, people pop up and it

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Speaker 1: could either be the perpetrator or a victim.

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Speaker 3: So you've got to decide to split second shoot, don't you.

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Speaker 2: We've been doing that at Laser Tag for a really

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Speaker 2: long time, since the twins were like seven yet you

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Speaker 2: want me? Okay whatever, you're in to the simulator room.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, it's fabulous.

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Speaker 1: I can just see Lucy right now with you and

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Speaker 1: John David does come into order of that poor thing.

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Speaker 2: I never scared a little Lucy. She's my little flower.

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Speaker 2: I love her so much. Why is it so different

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Speaker 2: with boys and girls? And when people first told me that,

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Speaker 2: I thought they were being stereotypical, that they were just

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Speaker 2: putting that on girls when it wasn't true. It's really true.

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Speaker 2: Raising them is so different. And I think I figured

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Speaker 2: out why girls think boys just like food, basketball, food Fortnite,

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Speaker 2: food basketball. But that's that's it. Girls actually have thoughts.

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Speaker 2: That's the difference. I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 3: That is a great little summation, ma'am.

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Speaker 2: Okay, other than your simulating training, did you get some

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Speaker 2: kind of a badge or certification for that?

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Speaker 1: No, it's just training in a you know, in departmental.

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Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what I did get to do.

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Speaker 1: The State Department had a delegation from Kerk'smenistan, which was

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Speaker 1: a country I was not familiar with, so I had

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Speaker 1: to do a lot of research. They have a horse

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Speaker 1: that is their country's symbol. Basically, that is the most

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Speaker 1: gorgeous horse I've ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 3: They called it a golden horse.

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Speaker 1: So they were extremely interested in mounted patrol. Here, they

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Speaker 1: were interested in wildlife crimes, and then they were interested

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Speaker 1: in cold cases.

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Speaker 3: So that's why they selected to meet with me.

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Speaker 1: I had a fantastic time talking with them and learn

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Speaker 1: just as much from them. But the remarkable thing is

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Speaker 1: they brought me a purse, and this purse almost looks

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Speaker 1: like a Persian rug. It is gorgeous, just as a

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Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to meet with them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's wonderful. I don't care your purse. I stuff

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Speaker 2: everything in my braw so I could beat hands free

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Speaker 2: when I want their housing projects. Can we talk about

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Speaker 2: the law, because I'm very uncomfortable talking about perse Is

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Speaker 2: style fashion I know nothing about it. I would like

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Speaker 2: to talk about something I'm actually interested in, and that

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Speaker 2: would either be my children, your children, children in general,

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Speaker 2: or murder that's pretty or recipes. Those are really the

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Speaker 2: only things I'm interested in.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't care a person either, same

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Speaker 1: reason I need my hands free.

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Speaker 3: But what do you see as the biggest obstacle for

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Speaker 3: the prosecution with Diddy, if any, the.

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Speaker 2: Biggest obstacle right now would be I was on a

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Speaker 2: to be let's just say get together yesterday with Harvey

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Speaker 2: Levin from TMZ and Mark Gergez and I call them

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Speaker 2: both on They kept referring to the victims as ex girlfriends,

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Speaker 2: and I got to thinking about it. I think that's

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Speaker 2: going to be a problem. Not that they are ex girlfriends.

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Speaker 2: That's not the problem. The problem is the way it's

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Speaker 2: going to be portrayed, like, oh, they were girlfriends, they

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Speaker 2: broke up in a snit, and this is a retaliation

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Speaker 2: that says jealousy. It's a scorn. If they didn't consent

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Speaker 2: to what was happening, why they stay in it. And

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Speaker 2: also there's gonna be the issue of Sean Combs's likability.

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Speaker 2: I've never been up close to Combs, ever been around Combs,

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Speaker 2: but apparently he has some magnetic and charismatic personality even

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Speaker 2: if he does not take the stand. That translates to gen.

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Speaker 3: Mars agreed, yep.

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Speaker 1: And he's famous. Whether they know him or like him

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Speaker 1: or a fan, they still know of him. And I

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Speaker 1: think people like a Carnival Barker, they're gonna want to

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Speaker 1: see it. They can't turn away from it. And I

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Speaker 1: think some of the jurors are going to be enthralled

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Speaker 1: with what all is happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm worried about that. And I'll tell you who

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Speaker 2: had a huge likability factory. You know, our friend Renee

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Speaker 2: rock Wills like that. She has just a charisma about her.

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Speaker 2: You have that charisma to me. I think that Johnny

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Speaker 2: Cochranton is a perfect example. He could walk into a room.

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Speaker 2: It was like moth to a flame. Women wanted to

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Speaker 2: be with him, men wanted to be him. He just

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Speaker 2: has an it factor. And I think that that persuaded

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Speaker 2: Judge Eto and the jury because a lot of what

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Speaker 2: Johnny said is not the law. But you know, he

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Speaker 2: has a way. He had a way of turning the

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Speaker 2: facts in the law. And you know, here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: When you like somebody, you want to go along with them.

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Speaker 2: You want to believe what they're saying. You want to

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Speaker 2: agree with him. There were some defense attorneys that were

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Speaker 2: so wiley had gotten away with Okay, here you go.

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Speaker 2: Here's a great example. I won't not say who it is,

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Speaker 2: but you might remember this. A defense Atorney in Inner

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Speaker 2: City Atlanta constantly worked out. I swear I thought he's

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Speaker 2: on steroids because he had to have his pants specially

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Speaker 2: tailored because they were so fie, like a boy sized pants.

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Speaker 2: In his chest was like a big barrel, constantly working out. Again,

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Speaker 2: I think he's on stereot stories. I'd been on like

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Speaker 2: wife number eight anyway, and at number three I can

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Speaker 2: blame them right the other party until you get to

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Speaker 2: like three or four. Now, first thing, I go, oh,

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Speaker 2: that was a start of marriage. Just that doesn't count

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Speaker 2: with a big mistake. Then the second one, when that

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Speaker 2: falls apart, that's believable too, because you're like, well, maybe

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Speaker 2: they were abusive, maybe they ran through all the money,

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Speaker 2: maybe they were mean to the stepchild. But when you

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Speaker 2: get to the third one, you're starting to think, okay, now,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, wait a minute, the third fourth, except

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Speaker 2: of course, Elizabeth Taylor. He's perfect, Okay, wasn't her fault?

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Speaker 2: And Martha Ray and Martha Ray perfect. But back to

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Speaker 2: the defense lawyer. So there was a I guess I

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Speaker 2: played a rayment calendar, and this defense attorney's lawyer, his

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Speaker 2: client didn't show up. It was getting the end of

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Speaker 2: the calendar, and I kept saying, okay, he's going to

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Speaker 2: get bond forfeited, which means he loses his bond and

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Speaker 2: gets arrested the minute he spotted and he goes, no,

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Speaker 2: he'll come, he'll come. I'm like, okay, great, well, let's

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Speaker 2: just wait till the end of the day. By the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, the guy hadn't shown that. I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: he's going to get a bond forfeit. It was just

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Speaker 2: like everybody else. The guy goes he's out in the hall.

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Speaker 2: The defense lawyer went out in the hall and brought

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Speaker 2: in a defendant. I'm like, great, let's do to the arrayment.

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Speaker 2: I went and got the file. I went up to

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Speaker 2: the podium to take you know, to read him his

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Speaker 2: charges and let him play one way or the other,

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Speaker 2: and you know, then it would be several ways before

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Speaker 2: trial calendar or longer. When I opened the file, which

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Speaker 2: was unusual, there happened to be the right there on

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Speaker 2: the front at normally was in a folder in the back.

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Speaker 2: And I looked down, I looked up. I went what

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Speaker 2: that wasn't his client? He had either paid or gotten

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Speaker 2: a guy out in the hall to come in and

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Speaker 2: pretend to be the defendant. And if I hadn't seen

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Speaker 2: the picture, no one would have noticed.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: From that point on, that was just one of many

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Speaker 2: of his sneaky tricks. From that point on, every time

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Speaker 2: I saw him, I'm like, Oh, my stars, here he comes.

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Speaker 2: Here comes a BS right now. I never believed another

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Speaker 2: thing he said. On the other hand, there are people,

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Speaker 2: and I'll tell you one was like Brian Steele, who

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Speaker 2: was representing dedde Right now. I would see Brian Steele

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Speaker 2: walking down the court. There'd be a long haul coming

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Speaker 2: leading up to the courtroom. I go, oh, here come Stele,

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Speaker 2: And I knew that everything would go smoothly. He'd be prepared,

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Speaker 2: he'd be pleasant, and I didn't know if it was

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Speaker 2: going to be ended up being a trial, a not guilty,

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Speaker 2: a guilty. He might give me some facts I didn't

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Speaker 2: already know, which might change my opinion. But that's the

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Speaker 2: way I felt when I would say, Brian's Steel coming.

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Speaker 2: See what I mean, absolutely, And I think that these

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Speaker 2: lawyers are like that. That one is Brian Steele. He

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Speaker 2: just has a way in the courtroom that's likable. And

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you that makes people more amenable to what

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Speaker 2: they're saying, whether what they're saying is correct or it's

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Speaker 2: the law or not. So that's a concern because they've

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Speaker 2: got a lot of very likable, charismatic lawyers.

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Speaker 4: How could a beautiful, young first grade teacher be stabbed

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Speaker 4: twenty times, including in the bat, allegedly die of suicide? Yes,

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Speaker 4: that was a medical examiner's official ruling after a closed

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Speaker 4: door meeting. He first named it a homicide. Why what

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Speaker 4: happened to Ellen Greenberg? A huge American miscarriage of justice.

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Speaker 4: For an in depth look at the facts, see what

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Speaker 4: Happened to Ellen on Amazon? All proceeds to the National

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Speaker 4: Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the prosecution is going to have to

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Speaker 1: do exactly what you just laid out. They're going to

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Speaker 1: have to look at that jury and say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: three or four of these women might have got together

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Speaker 1: and made something up to come after you know, the accused.

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Speaker 3: But one hundred and twenty, well, a lot of those.

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Speaker 2: Are the cases that are not going to come into

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Speaker 2: similar transactions. The only way some of them will come

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Speaker 2: in is if good character is brought in by the defense,

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Speaker 2: you know, like if you're getting tried for armed robbery again,

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Speaker 2: and I as a prosecutor go, oh yeah, and she's

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Speaker 2: got plenty of drug disorderlies. I can't say that that

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Speaker 2: brings in your character for no probative reason.

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Speaker 3: The only reason a lot of those civil.

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Speaker 2: Actions could come in is if good characters brought in

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Speaker 2: by the defense. They can't just bring in everything comes

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Speaker 2: has ever been charged with, so it's limited. There's not

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Speaker 2: that many victims coming in. The thing they've got going

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Speaker 2: for them is they've got the cassive interiitate, which shows

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Speaker 2: that what was happening in that room was not consensual.

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Speaker 2: They have witnesses, thoses are going to be subjected to

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Speaker 2: a very searing cross exam like were you paid had

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Speaker 2: you been on an HBO documentary? Did you get paid

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Speaker 2: for that by the way they did? You know, It's

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing can ruin your case. But I

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Speaker 2: agree with you, Cheryl, with that many witnesses are they

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Speaker 2: all lying and Chilen comes to the only one telling

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Speaker 2: the truth.

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Speaker 1: Because here's the reality of those twelve jurors sitting there.

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Speaker 1: They probably have at least three breakups in their life.

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Speaker 1: How many of those people came back at you, how

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Speaker 1: many accused you of something so heinous that you didn't do?

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Speaker 1: Probably of the jurors, maybe one had somebody say something

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Speaker 1: about them, not this many, not this horrible. And again,

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Speaker 1: he's been famous a long long time, he's been rich

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Speaker 1: a long long time. So if that was their motive

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Speaker 1: to lie about somebody to try to get money from them,

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Speaker 1: they sure waited a long time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they really did. And another thing that I think

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Speaker 2: that's fabloid joining us as a legal consultant. Shut up David.

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Speaker 2: I had to know David was somewhere in the vicinity

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Speaker 2: because the dog came running through. That usually predeceases either me,

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Speaker 2: David Lucy or John David. Do you see the dog

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Speaker 2: run through first? Okay, I don't know who's going to

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Speaker 2: run by next? Okay? Where was I Cheryl? Oh? Why

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Speaker 2: wait this long? Why not call police at the time.

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Speaker 2: That's an age old tried and t line across examination.

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Speaker 3: And it works, it does sometimes.

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Speaker 1: But I think if they get the right maybe even

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Speaker 1: expert witness to explain they were given drugs where they

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Speaker 1: didn't have a good memory. It was all fuzzy, but

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Speaker 1: they knew something horrible happened. They knew they didn't consent

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Speaker 1: to it. But their testimony would have been limited because

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Speaker 1: of what was done to them.

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Speaker 2: Somehow, the state is going to have to explain the

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Speaker 2: phenomena of women not coming forward when they have been raped,

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Speaker 2: why they don't come forward? I remember, do you remember

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Speaker 2: Emmanuel Hammond's kill Teliet Life.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, there were.

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Speaker 2: Similar transactions in that case. One was a lady that

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Speaker 2: in her culture it was a huge embarrassment to have

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Speaker 2: been raped, and she had never even told her husband,

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Speaker 2: and all she would allow the prosecutor to say was

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Speaker 2: that Emmanuel Hammond's had kidnapped her, beaten her up, tied

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Speaker 2: her up, and thrown her in his courch trunk, which

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Speaker 2: is exactly what they did to Julie Love and others.

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Speaker 2: But she made it clear her husband was sitting out

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Speaker 2: in the audience that if she was asked, were you raped,

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Speaker 2: which she was, she would say no. So there's it's

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Speaker 2: very complicated, very complicated. That's what they're going to have

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Speaker 2: to explain. Why they thought they'd lose their job, why

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Speaker 2: they thought they would be blackballed out of the entertainment

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Speaker 2: industry by one of the most powerful figures in the

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Speaker 2: entertainment industry, why they didn't come forward, and how they

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Speaker 2: got the courage to come forward and Cassie Venture spoke up.

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Speaker 1: That's right, exactly right, and there was the video, so

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Speaker 1: now they knew people would believe them because there's.

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Speaker 2: Prow Yeah, Garret gar said something really interesting and I

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Speaker 2: had heard this before, but it jogged my memory. Many

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Speaker 2: people have been stating that Cassie was running down that

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Speaker 2: hallway away from comes because he was forcing her back

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Speaker 2: into a freak off. What they are going to argue

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Speaker 2: the defense is that she was angry because she saw

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Speaker 2: someone else had texted him another woman, and was angry

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Speaker 2: and left. That's not gonna watch. She was trying to leave,

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Speaker 2: he came back. He beat her, gut kicked her, kicked

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Speaker 2: her in the head, and dragged her back. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's gonna work. But that's what they're going

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Speaker 2: to claim as to why she was leaving.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's say she left because she was angry and jealous.

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Speaker 1: He chased her down in a towel, so he was naked,

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Speaker 1: He beat her, drug her. Why would he be that

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Speaker 1: angry because she's jealous?

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Speaker 2: Exactly. You know, that's a bunch of men for you

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Speaker 2: coming up with that one. But you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what they have in their back of tricks, but

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Speaker 2: we'll find out soon enough. I thought that vodyre jury

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Speaker 2: selection would yield a little bit more evidence as to

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Speaker 2: where they're coming from on the defense. M I did

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Speaker 2: learn that they're claiming all this was consensual, that did

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Speaker 2: he was just just a swinger, don't ike mean because

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Speaker 2: I'm a swinger, And that there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: volunteering use of the drugs and alcohol. That's where they're

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Speaker 2: coming from. What else can they do.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be one of those things where they're

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Speaker 1: going to have to explain it could have been consensual

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Speaker 1: up until it wasn't. And I could go to his house,

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Speaker 1: I could go to a party, I could drink alcohol,

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Speaker 1: even do a line of cocaine. But the minute you

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Speaker 1: render me helpless, unconscious, that's where everything took a turn.

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Speaker 3: So they're masking I know how to do this. I

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Speaker 3: know how to violate women.

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Speaker 1: Where they can't testify against me. It's just like the

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Speaker 1: Daybreak drug.

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Speaker 2: We got a little bit of knowledge from the vodier.

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Speaker 2: That's your re selection. I won't see more. As soon

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Speaker 2: as they begin, you'll start seeing the shape of what

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Speaker 2: the defense is going to be. Of course, an opening

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Speaker 2: statement and through the cross examination of witnesses.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious who's going.

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Speaker 2: To be giving the openings, how that's going to play out.

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Speaker 2: The way they're doing for a dyer is really interesting

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Speaker 2: in inner city Atlanta, and whenever I was part of

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Speaker 2: a case with the Feds, we would have either open

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Speaker 2: strikes or silence strikes. Open strikes are as a general

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Speaker 2: or the whole panel standing. A juror would stand up

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Speaker 2: and this says, after what I are questioning. The judge

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Speaker 2: would say, jurre number one, and of course the state

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Speaker 2: has to go first, and I typically would take nearly

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Speaker 2: all the jurors. There wouldn't be very many that I

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Speaker 2: would strike, because the defense would have twenty strikes and

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Speaker 2: I would have ten, and we would have a jerry

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Speaker 2: paddle of you know, one hundred or more people. And

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Speaker 2: I don't like getting off on the wrong foot by

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Speaker 2: rejecting people. You have to be really like a convicted

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Speaker 2: felon for me to strike you. And I would say

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Speaker 2: in open court, the state accepts the Lady Gerard, or

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Speaker 2: I'd say the state respectfully releases the Lady Gerard. All right,

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Speaker 2: you go through like that, or typically the defense might

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Speaker 2: want silence strikes it takes a lot longer, which the

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Speaker 2: clerk of the court comes over and gets a piece

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Speaker 2: of paper and it says jar one, and you accept,

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Speaker 2: the state accepts, or the state rejects, and they hand

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Speaker 2: the piece of paper in silence to the defense and

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Speaker 2: they take it up to the judge. And so the

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Speaker 2: jars never know who is striking you. So I like

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Speaker 2: for everything to be open and above board. I don't

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Speaker 2: like silence strikes. That's the way it's going to happen

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Speaker 2: here Friday. Today, the jurors are not coming back to

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Speaker 2: the courtroom. The lawyers and the judge, the calendar, the

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Speaker 2: court reporter will be there and they are selecting the

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Speaker 2: jury without the jury even being there today, the twelve

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Speaker 2: germors and I think six alternates. I think they need more.

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Speaker 2: Remember Scott Peterson. The jury and the alternates will be

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Speaker 2: called over the weekend and told okay, you're in.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well here we go. And I think it's only

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Speaker 3: going to last a couple of weeks, don't you.

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Speaker 2: I think it'll be dragged out. How do you say

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks?

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Speaker 1: I just think they're going to be very direct, and

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Speaker 1: those witnesses are going to be up and down. I

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Speaker 1: think everybody's anticipating so wicked names coming out, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't heard anything that's going to just set this thing

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Speaker 1: on its tail.

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Speaker 3: I haven't. Okay, I'll see you Corn, all right, baby?

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Speaker 3: Have you Mother's Day?

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Speaker 2: You too, Dear bike,