1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Which is anonymous with the Laria Baldwin and Michelle Campbell 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Mason and I Heart Radio podcast Hey, which is welcome Back. 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm me Lariya and I'm Michelle. Today. We are very 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: pleased to have such an impressive guest. She is the 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: chair of the Human Rights Campaign Foundation Board. She is 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: a globally renowned activist speaker. She's a fantastic writer. She 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: focuses on gender politics and identity. She has really changed 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people's lives with being such an accessible 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: and concise speaker in these realms. And she's also had 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: a huge career in the beauty space. Co owns show's 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: pub at the Public Theater. Today, we have none other 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: than Joey Patterson. So we're so I'm so excited for 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: the two of you guys to meet, you know, and 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: I've had the pleasure of spending time with you Jody before. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you're a mom, you're an author, you're an activist, 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: you're an entrepreneur. You do so many things. You were 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: so many different hats, and you do it so beautifully 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: and inspiring. The way I described you was just your force. 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: You had this amazing energy of like I want to 20 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: do what you are doing and sign on to all 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: of the amazing things that you're doing. How where do 22 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: you source all of your energy from? That's a good question, 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: because you know, depending on the day, I'm feeling more 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: or less depleted. But I do have a method for energy, 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: and I think my primary things gathered the women. I 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: do that. I've been doing that for years, for decades, 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: gather the women. Sometimes it looks like I have this 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: mural of women on my wall, and it's about fifty 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: pictures tacked up on my wall of fifty different women. 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Some of them I know well. Some of them I 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: don't know, like Billie Holiday or Nina Simone. And some 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: of them I know very well, like um There Vivier 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: or Bethann Hardison h And these are women that I 34 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: really admire for something, and so every day I spend 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: time with these women. I look at their pictures, I 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: see how they stand, I see their posture, they look 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: in their eyes, and then I imitate them. Literally, I 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: don't walk out into the world is like just Jodie. 39 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: I always try to imitate and embody and practice in 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: the spirit of these women that I admire. So that's 41 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: a lot of my energy. A lot of my energy 42 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: is not a singular woman energy, it's like collective women energy. 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: And I do that every day. I've been doing that 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: for decades, like spending time with the women on my wall, 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: and then I also gather the women in real life, 46 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: like I have a team of aunties that um are 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: some of them biologically related and some of them are not. 48 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: And they have agency over my in my life, in 49 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: my children's lives. They actually call some of the shots. 50 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: They support me, they help me to answer questions and 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: problem solve and I've never been afraid to get that 52 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: female energy UM on a daily basis. Is that something 53 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: you grew up with? I think? So, I mean, we're 54 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: we have a matriarchal family in many ways, some strong men, 55 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: but definitely the women were buying property, buying houses, big careers, UM, 56 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: lots of children, heads of churches, heads of communities. So 57 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: I grew up with a lot of strong women. And 58 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: I like women. I really like being around there, and 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: we're problem solvers and so yeah, I think I must 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: have learned that from my mom to gather female energy. 61 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is I found that that female 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: energy comes in lots of different forms. These days. It's 63 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: not one way that sounds um, you know, like Oprah's 64 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: kitchen cabinet that she always talks about, Right, it's like 65 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: your your most trusted advisors and in essence, your family, right, 66 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: your family, your family of support. And that said, we 67 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: both know so much about you, and you know, I'm 68 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: such a fan of your work with the Human Rights 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: Campaign and you're writing, Um, could you tell us a 70 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: little bit about your story how you became a writer 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: and you know if so much of your work is 72 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: based around your family and how that inspired you in 73 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: that direction. Thank you for asking. My kids swear I'm 74 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: an influencer, and I'm like, no, I'm a writer. But 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: that's a cool that's a cool thing, because yeah, that 76 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: that is that that makes that I think that you're cool. 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: They do think that it's a cool thing to be 78 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: an influencer, and I am. I had an aversion to 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: the to the title and to how it was playing 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: out for so long. But when I think about it, 81 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: and when I think about you know, what I do 82 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: is partially because it motivates, because I love it, partially 83 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: because it services my family and allows me to provide 84 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: for them, and partially because it moves the dial in 85 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: terms of society influencer or fits into that. You know, 86 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: it's like so, but you know what I really um 87 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: honor in myself is the writing. And I've always loved 88 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: to write. I've always loved to read. I'm majored in 89 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: literature at Spellman College, and my first job outside of 90 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: when I graduated college was working in a publishing company UM, 91 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: and I was editing books like right out of college UM. 92 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: And then I realized that was not enough money to 93 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: survive in New York and I didn't have a trust fund, 94 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: and so I did a couple of other things in between. 95 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: I worked in music, and I worked in fashion, I 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: worked in beauty UM. But I circled back decades later 97 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: to writing because it was there was a compelling story 98 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: that I was playing out in my own head, like 99 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: how this woman got to the place that she is 100 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: now where the reality now is almost the upside down 101 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: reality of where I was thirty years ago, And I 102 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: was like, how did I get here where things are 103 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: totally different from the way I was taught and totally 104 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: different from the way I lived. And so I went 105 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: back in memory and wrote a book about gender UM 106 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: and identity through the lens of my family, my Black 107 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: American family. And so I wrote that book called I 108 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Bold World, and it's about 109 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: my my journey as a person UM through gender and 110 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: then raising a trans kid, and then re raising myself 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: as a as a liberated woman. UM. And then I 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 1: wrote a children's book. And those two things were happening 113 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: at the same time. I was trying to find organizations 114 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: and people also investigating gender and supporting diversity. And so 115 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: the Human Rights Campaign is our largest LGBT organization in 116 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: the nation, and I just started knocking on their door, like, 117 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: tell me more about what you know. You've got three 118 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: million supporters, What are the needs, what are the concerns. 119 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: I joined the board, I asked to be chair of 120 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: the board, became chair of the board. UM, it's just 121 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: a it's been an investigation of a world that I 122 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: knew very little of. UM and it's an important part 123 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: of this human experience. The LGBT community talked talked to 124 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: us a little bit about your family. You have a 125 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: bunch of kids, almost as many as I do. But 126 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: I feel like last time we talked to you had 127 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: more kids than I. UM, so you talked to us 128 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: about your family. I am a mom of five. I'm 129 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: a native New York Harris. I raised my kids between 130 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: Manhattan and Brooklyn. UM. But I have and I have 131 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: two dogs. I don't know if you can hear them 132 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: in the background. I'm like a real, like mama type 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: of person. And you know, I raised my children I 134 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: thought to be very open minded and very verbal and 135 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: very opinionated. And I found myself struggling with this one 136 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: kid who wasn't doing anything, wasn't getting dressed, wasn't playing nicely, 137 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: didn't want hair brush, didn't want to be around mama. 138 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: Just didn't want much of the things that I thought 139 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: that child should want. A need um. And as year one, 140 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: two and three came around, that child became so disruptive. 141 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: I wouldn't get dressed, was always fighting, was always crying, nightmares, 142 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: reoccurring nightmares, biting nails until bloody, just a real troubled kid. 143 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: And I couldn't figure it out. I asked one day, 144 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: what's wrong, and my child said, well, everyone thinks I'm 145 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: a girl, and I'm not. I'm I'm a boy. And 146 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: that was the start of this journey that I've been 147 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: talking about. Where I'm trying to understand gender from a 148 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: different perspective. And that one kid then made me three 149 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: evaluate how I was raising all the kids. So I 150 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: have a very diverse family. I've been married twice, one 151 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: child from one marriage to a swissman, three children from 152 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: marriage to an African man, one adopted kid. It's just 153 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: a big, robust families. Some of us are atheists, some 154 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: of us have strong faith. We speak multiple languages Swiss, German, English, 155 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: tweet from Ghana, Latin. So what one of the things 156 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: that I and I've had the privilege of speaking with 157 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: you before, and I learned a lot. You taught me 158 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: a lot last time that we spoke. So one thing 159 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: that you you taught me was that genders in the brain. 160 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: Um and so we you talked just a little bit 161 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: about about that because so a lot of people, you know, 162 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: even people who are kind of more liberal to be like, 163 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: but I don't get it because this is anatomy. Therefore 164 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: that's gender and um and and you spoke about it 165 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: so beautifully last time. Thank you. Um And And the 166 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: funny thing is, I'm not a scientist, I'm not historian, 167 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor. Um and I get asked to 168 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: speak on gender all the time, and I speak from 169 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 1: a perspective of a mom, So I just put that 170 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: out there, like, this is not something that I understand scientifically, 171 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: but I've decided that I don't need to, so you know. 172 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: And I also say, like there are lots of things 173 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: that I use in this world and interact within this 174 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: world and believe in that. I don't understand the science 175 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: behind aspirin, Like I don't know how it works, but 176 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: it works my cell phone. Don't have a clue how 177 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: I can speak into it and then someone else get 178 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: But I believe in these things because they are tried 179 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: and true. So with gender, some of it is just 180 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: trust that my son is actually not abnormal, right, So 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: that's that I don't know the science fully. But then 182 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: there's this thing. I mean, I have studied some of it, 183 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: and gender is much more complex than we've ever thought 184 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: growing up. And it's not just if you have a 185 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: woman of vagina you are a girl. It's not just 186 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: if you have testicle as you are a boy. The 187 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: physical body does not determine how the brain does not 188 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: necessarily determine how the brain identifies. So every person identifies 189 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: at around three, the brain places you in the world. 190 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: Who are you in this world? And my kid's brain 191 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: said boy. And the body looks looked at the time 192 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: like a female body. Um, and that's not as abnormal 193 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: as we think. I mean, a lot of times there's 194 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: ambiguity between the body and the brain, and a lot 195 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: of times there's even ambiguity in the body. But somebodies 196 00:11:54,200 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: have multiple ambiguous characteristics. So what I do know is 197 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: that there's more reason to believe that my son is 198 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: telling me who he is out of a need for 199 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: me to support him, out of a need for me 200 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: to push the world out of his way so he 201 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: can just exist more so than he's playing games because 202 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: it's too hard. It's too it's too hard. So I 203 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: just know that the brain is an active thing in gender, 204 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: an active participate in gender, and we've yet to discover 205 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: all of the ways of the brain works. So I 206 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: just trust when someone says, please see me as I 207 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: see myself. It's the safer route, because when we insist 208 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: that someone is not who they see themselves are as, 209 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: it invites suicide and your ted talk in which is 210 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: very popular. Um. I really think that the the theme 211 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: that has derived most from it really is about gender 212 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: being a construct. And you know, you you sent very 213 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: clearly Penelope as a boy with a vagina, and it 214 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: was such a beautiful way to state it, like you 215 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: just had your you know, let's say it, put it 216 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: out there. And I think that you had such a 217 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: great analogy of colors not having constructs. But there's something 218 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: we believe and like all these boxes and limitations that 219 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: we used to a limit or be expand our perspectives. 220 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure that you have a much more broader, a 221 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: much broader view since that period. But if there's anything 222 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: you could say that you think is like the most 223 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: important or helpful nugget to kind of opening up that 224 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: perspective to others, what what would that be to you? 225 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: So much of what i've the language that I used 226 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: a decade ago or even five years ago, is not 227 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: the language I use now. So I very loosely and 228 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: liberally spoke of my kid's body in public. I just 229 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: don't do that anymore, um, And I would not want 230 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: them to discuss my body on a stage. At the time, 231 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: I was so new, and I was trying to speak 232 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: to people who are also new to this, and I 233 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: was very like crudely talking about the body being one 234 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: thing and the brain and the identity being something different. 235 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: And I wanted to jar people into to the to 236 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: the moment that I was in. I wanted to bring 237 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: them along quickly, and so I use really crude language. 238 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: But I think, um, the crux of it is that 239 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: this idea of gender that we've that I grew up with, 240 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: is not wide enough, like gender being one of two choices. 241 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: It's just not wide enough. There's nothing in nature that's 242 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: one of two things, like the way we describe the 243 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: trees and the ocean and birds, and they're multiple. There's 244 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: like a denseness to the language. But then humans are 245 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: you either boy or a girl? I just this is 246 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: such a random story, but I had a plumber in 247 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: my house the other day and the plumber started talking 248 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: about podcasts or things that he was listening to, and 249 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: then he started talking about trans issues, and he said, 250 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, I just I'm really scared. This is a 251 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: random plumber now, because I'm really scared and disgusted by 252 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: doctors who are mutilating children's bodies. And I should have 253 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: just kept my mouth shut, but I didn't. And I said, 254 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: that's just not a thing. It's just not a thing. 255 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: And there are doctors that are dealing with adults and 256 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: young adults to alter their bodies, and it's happening. It's 257 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: more prevalent with Cish gender people, periodis gender people have 258 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: more reaffirming surgeries. I'm more concerned with what the Kardashians 259 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: are setting as an example, like five women, more so 260 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: than the millions of trans people like I think that 261 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: if we look at the despair or the unfair situation 262 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: trans people are doing, um are having surgeries on their bodies, 263 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: and cys gender people are having surgeries on their bodies. 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: Sis people like you and I are doing more reaffirming surgeries. 265 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: We're making our breasts fit our presentation. We're making our 266 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: hips and our butt look the way we want to 267 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: present ourselves as feminine beings. Our jawlines, our lips, our 268 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: noses are I mean, these are all things. These are 269 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: gender reaffirming changes so that we can present the way 270 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: we feel our femininity or masculinity should look. And no 271 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: one's bothered by that. That is such a mind blowing point. 272 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: Every single time I talk to you, I have this 273 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: like negat I'm like, oh my god, you're so right. 274 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: But there's something really interesting about watching these transformations through 275 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: social media that people like don't really talk about. And 276 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: then you scroll down and it's like, oh, it's a 277 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: glow up. What you got a facial like, let's talk 278 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: about it. And we're sort of policing some folks and 279 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: saying you're not allowed to do anything right, and then 280 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: the other folks are doing everything. And it's like you said, 281 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: a glow up or come up or a beautification or 282 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: a sign of stat social status to be able to 283 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: spend money on enhancing the way you feel inside outside, right, 284 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: and so, and this is the same thing with puberty blockers, 285 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: Like precocious puberty has been a thing for generations. Young 286 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: girls who get their puberty early, they've been put on 287 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: puberty blockers and no one, no one had a problem 288 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: with it. And now trans children are using it, trans 289 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: young people are using it, and it's seemed it's deemed 290 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: as inappropriate and dangerous. So it's just there's this imbalance 291 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: of the way the world believes everyone assists and we 292 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: think of it, think of the world through our own eyes, 293 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: assist gender and it's just not a thing. Well, and 294 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: the like conflict between being being a woman who identifies 295 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: as such and is doing all those things and being 296 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: a feminist, and how there's so much pushed back to 297 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: that you can't be both right, the duality can't exist. 298 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: And then then that's one more limitation that we're dealing with. 299 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: Yet you know, we've got all these pop culture examples 300 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: that that allow for that. So UM, going going towards 301 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: pop culture with this, I did want to ask you 302 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: your take on how the trans community is perceived in 303 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: pop culture. Obviously, you we've all seen and heard of 304 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: the show post Ballroom Culture. How we really like that 305 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: expanded the conversation into ballroom and you know, gender constructs 306 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: um to a much wider audience and ended up, you know, 307 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: giving MJ. Rodriguez the first Emmy to a trans person 308 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: in history, which was phenomenal. Um, how do you feel 309 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: about how gender constructs have been portrayed in pop culture 310 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: or if there was any like resoundingly great example of 311 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: such shitty for a long time? Um, in inaccurate, not 312 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: fully rounded characters, people stories, Um, And I think that 313 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: is changing. I mean I've when I grew up, I 314 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: knew I saw gender nonconforming people in documentaries that were 315 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: really sad and like Paris is burning. Um, it was 316 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: a story that kept going over and over again, like 317 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: if you're gender nonconforming, the story told me that that 318 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: person would not make it through life, that person would die. 319 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: It also conflict. The media also conflated drug addiction and 320 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: poverty with gender nonconforming identities, and that again is it's 321 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: it's a made up thing. It's not. They don't go 322 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: hand in hand necessarily, um, And so I think that 323 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: was portrayed in the media. Um. Psychopaths were gender nonconforming 324 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: addicts with gender not conforming And so it is only 325 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: of recent that we're seeing triumphant stories, funny stories, witty stories, 326 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: loving stories, family stories of folks who are gender not conforming. 327 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: And you know, I need more of them because in 328 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: my family we're pretty I just want to see my 329 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: family with folks who had trans that are cysts, that 330 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: are straight, that are queer in one family, I would 331 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: love to see that. And the thing the interesting thing 332 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: is that we don't even agree in my own house 333 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: on this topic. Like some of us are trans, and 334 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: some of us don't understand being trans. Some of us 335 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: aren't scientifically convinced yet that it's a thing. How do 336 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: you parent through that? That's an interesting table conversation for Thanksgiving. Well, 337 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, we do it all the time, and I've 338 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: taken it even off of the big moments of Thanksgiving. 339 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: But I have this, so how do you parent through it? 340 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: I have this thing called the lab and we just 341 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: lab out big scary idea. So whoever has the microphone 342 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: gets to say whatever they want for however long it 343 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: could be like thirty minutes your microphone, and then the 344 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: next person gets to speak their truth. The rules are 345 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: you just can't like, it's not a it's not a debate, 346 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: so you're not trying to prove your point. You're just 347 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: stating your issues and stating your your perspective with no 348 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: goal of agreeing. And so we've done this, like one 349 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: kid will say, this was years ago. You would say, um, 350 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: I love my brother. I think he can do anything 351 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: in this world that he wants to, but I don't. 352 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: But scientifically you're a girl now, he said, I'll always 353 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: use the right pronouns because that's what you want, but 354 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: scientifically speaking, you are female. And then my other kid 355 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: would step in and say, look, it's not about science, 356 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: like I've already proven it just being here. I'm trans 357 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: it exists in the story, this is how God has 358 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: made me. And then the scientists would say, I don't 359 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: even believe in God either, So like all of this 360 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: is not making set. And they've been debate, not debating. 361 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: They've been arguing this point on opposite ends of the 362 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: conversation for years. They still don't. Really they might have 363 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: inched a little bit closer, but they're basically, you know, 364 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: my house looks like America. Once you can put it 365 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: on the table, once you can decide that it's okay 366 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: to be a conservative and progressive, or a person of 367 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: faith and an atheist at the same table or on 368 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: the same basketball court, it's all good. So they've not 369 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: try to agree. They've just stated who they are, what 370 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: they believe in, and then they've gone on to the 371 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: better things like playing basketball and eating dinner. I love that, 372 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, recently, as i'm you know, as we all 373 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: have our documents in our life that we're constantly on, 374 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: they want you to fill your life out into like 375 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: these little boxes. And I'm just like, I don't want to, 376 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: Like I don't even know anymore, because it all seems 377 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: like like sports teams, you know. I mean, you're either 378 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: all the way over here, you're all the way over there, 379 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: and then you can't be friends with the person over 380 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: there or even agree with them on anomnything, and you 381 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: have to kind of isolate them ostracize them. And it's 382 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: just you know, seeing what hearing your your story and 383 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: and the mix that you have in your home. I mean, 384 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: that's that's total goals, just being like, hey, we're we're 385 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: all different, and we can all co exist and come 386 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: together and love each other and be together, and then 387 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: we can have a moment where we disagree and then 388 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: we come together again. I think that's a great a 389 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: great point to in terms of like, you know, we 390 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: live in a very adversarial society these days, right. I 391 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: think that's a really cool principle to put a moratorium 392 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: on debate. Like, while we all want to be able 393 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: to debate our point, that really just creates space to 394 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: listen and really like absorb what someone's point of view is, 395 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: and so you can come at the conversation from a 396 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: much more educated position, which is kind of I think 397 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: in essence, what we're trying to do here. It's just 398 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: listening and learning. But that said, I'm I'm curious too 399 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: if you because you're such you know, you are an 400 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: outspoken advocate. Do you get obviously you can't moderate every 401 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: conversation in that way. Do you get a lot of 402 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: online hates for for your person? There was a time 403 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: when I was I was listening. I would read all 404 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: of the comments, thousands of them, you know, one at 405 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: a time, and respond to almost all of them. And 406 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: my friends were like, you're just torturing yourself. And for me, 407 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: it was less torture than research. I was trying to 408 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: find where the gaps are and I figured that out. 409 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: For the most part, it's faith, economics, education, grace. Those 410 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: are where the divide seemed to fall and the confusion 411 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: and the lack of information. And once I understood that, 412 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: it was easier to proceed with like raising my kids 413 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: and moving through life and then kind of knowing how 414 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,479 Speaker 1: to possibly shift the dial a little bit, like you know, 415 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: but I still get um hate hate, you know, d 416 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: m s and what how do you deal with them? Now? 417 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: I you know, my kids are older, and so when 418 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: I start to see things coming in on Instagram, I 419 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: just blocked that person or shut off the comments. I've 420 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: only done that a couple of times, but sometimes I'll 421 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: delete the comment and then block that person because no 422 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: one has time now, Like are were so inundated with 423 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: pressure and hate and death that I don't even want 424 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: to My boundaries are much wider now, much wider. I 425 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: just I'm I rarely stay in the neighborhoods of anger 426 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: and hate, um and division, and I'm always in the solution, 427 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: finding the collaborative neighborhoods. And that's why I work with HRC, 428 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: That's why I stick around young people all the time, 429 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: because that's, to me, the neighborhood of change. And a 430 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: lot of these um, a lot of these negative people 431 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: and they don't even be leave what they're saying. They 432 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: just want to say it to to get a rise 433 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: out of you. I mean, there is It is a 434 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: really ugly toxic culture that is that is online trolling. 435 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: And again you think about, like you, for out of 436 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: all the things that you have to do with your day, 437 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: you've decided to enter one person's account to harass them. 438 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: You probably get it too, Oh my god, I get 439 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: it so much. I've turned off my comments. I've turned 440 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: off my comments because you know it was exactly what 441 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: what you're saying is that I have so much energy 442 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: at me all the time, and um my, and I 443 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: need to be a good mom and having Genie four 444 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: nine tell me that she thinks that I have a 445 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: boob job and pretend to breastfeed or I wear a 446 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: fake pregnancy belly like nine, I really really don't need 447 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: your energy coming in at me. The hard thing with 448 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: that is it blocks out of normal human beings who 449 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: want to come and just interact with me. So I'm 450 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: trying to figure that filter out at this point of 451 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: you know, I miss my community, I miss my people, 452 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I also realized that my 453 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: priority are to my seven little people that I need 454 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: to not feel like I want to jump out my 455 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: my my building because I'm so sad with you know, 456 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: all these random people saying all these things to me. 457 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: Um and it is that that thing it is positive, 458 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: and then you have like that one thing that bothers you, 459 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: and there's the things that they're saying are just so ridiculous, 460 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, Like it's like I remember one comment it 461 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: stood out. It was like, oh, yes, I know Jody Patterson. 462 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: That's that crazy white woman who tortures our children. And 463 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: I'm like, I would even bother to look at the picture. 464 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: I'm not the crazy white woman. I'm actually this black woman, 465 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: and there's no torturing of kids like it's just there 466 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: were such um sloppy. Yes, it's just to tear you down. 467 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I actually get get 468 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: hate about is, you know, every once in a while, 469 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: I'll do UM, I'll do videos talking about how I 470 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: parent my children, teaching them about l g B, t Q, 471 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: I A plus UM and why I think that that's 472 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: very important. Just as I grew up immersed with all 473 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: sorts of different people and it was never a thing. 474 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I want my kids to know that it's not It 475 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a thing. I mean, we can 476 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: learn about all these different things and it's important, but 477 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: we don't have to think, oh, that's different, or that's weird, 478 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: or that's not normal. These are all normal and okay 479 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: and part of life. UM. And so I'll talk a 480 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: little bit about how I speak about these these topics, 481 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: just like I speak about you know, heterosexual marriage and relationship. UM. 482 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: I find that one of the things that people get 483 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: confused with is they do they think LGBT, and then 484 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: their brain goes to sex rather than LGBT love identity. 485 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what kind of lives you 486 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: guys all have at home, but like, sex is a 487 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: very small fraction of everybody's life. Okay, So like the 488 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: fact that we're so hung off on sex when like, 489 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: again I hope that your life is this, but like 490 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: what percentage of your life are you actually having sex? 491 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And um, and so the conversation, 492 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: especially with my small children around this topic has zero 493 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 1: to do with sex. Nothing. And so talk to us 494 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: a little bit because you have even you know, more experienced, UM, 495 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: talked to us a little bit of how you would 496 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: recommend parents talk to their children about this. It's it's 497 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: daunting because I think you're right, we've sexualized and demonized 498 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: the LGBT community. And so you know who wants to 499 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: bring that to the dinner table, right with a breakfast 500 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: table with our kids? But in reality, we're cousins and 501 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: mothers and uncles, um, And so there's a very family 502 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: loving conversation you can have. I when I was first 503 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure this all out, I would just share 504 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: my experiences as a mom raising a trans kid with 505 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: my other mom's over lunch at the office, like anywhere 506 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: I was where there was a conversation about anything, I 507 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: would say, here's what I'm going through, like my kid, 508 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: you know what is doing X, Y and Z, and 509 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: I would just tell the stories of what was happening 510 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: in my house. I think that there are enough of 511 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: us that have written books, and you can bring our 512 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: stories into your family. So I would say, share books 513 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: with with them, your your kids, UM, talk about one person, 514 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, maybe one family that's trans. A lot of 515 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: us are sharing our stories, our family stories, not because 516 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: we want to be just suddy, but because we want 517 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: an example for your kids. Right. We wanted to give 518 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: you the language. So you know, my thought is, bring 519 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: books to the dinner table, share families, family stories. If 520 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: you know of Jody Patterson and her children, talk about 521 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: us at the dinner table. UM. And then the reality 522 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: is that most kids have many kids, not most many 523 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: kids have a trans kid in their classroom or um 524 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: somewhere in their world. And so you become closer to 525 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: your children once you get up enough nerve to talk 526 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: about these things, because I think it's already out there 527 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: for them. It's not as big of a secret speaking 528 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: to how we have these conversations with our kids, um, 529 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: and being that you know Harry Potter and the series 530 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: and J. K. Rowling and you know, the whole turf 531 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: conversation of trans exclusionary radical feminists who believe that there 532 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: isn't you know, their possible to the inclusion of trans 533 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: people in the in this movement? Have you had that 534 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: conversation with your family and it's so like, um, how 535 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: would you say is the best way to go about it? Basically, 536 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: we talked about all of it, not in silos but 537 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: being connected. So if we believe that racism needs to 538 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: be eradicated, we also have to believe that sexism has 539 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: to be eradicated and transphobia. And so that's a reality 540 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: in my life and I try to express that to 541 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: my kids that there's not one is um that's more 542 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: sort of important in the other Sometimes it's we have 543 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: moments that the population or community is being hit harder. 544 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: But if we are activists, and I raised my children 545 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: to be activists, we have to stand up for all 546 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: of us. And you don't have freedom if some of 547 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: us are not free. Um, And that's a except that 548 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: they know, and I've been teaching it to them. Of course, 549 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: it has to play out in real life, in their 550 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: in their own lives. Like I have a teenager in 551 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: high school who experienced racism firsthand, very clearly for the 552 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: first time. Not theoretically, not out there, but it's him 553 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: exactly and specifically, and so that you know, I think 554 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: it takes time for children to understand how serious this is. 555 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: But we do talk about this super wicked problem of 556 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: compounded issues that make for a ship shop and then 557 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, and I talked about it in also in 558 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: relationship to capitalism, because so much and you were talking about, 559 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, packaging people. It's like most of this is 560 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: to get the dollar, right, So like if you're this 561 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: kind of person, you buy here, this kind of person 562 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: you shot here, and if you're that kind of person, 563 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: we're going to direct you over here. It's just a 564 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: very clear and easy path to making a dollar. And 565 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: so I talked about racism and sectism and transphope be 566 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: being attached to capitalism, not that we want to not 567 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: live in this world of capitalism, but that we have 568 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: to just be aware of how we're being marketed for 569 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: other people's profit. You know, as opposed to like, really, 570 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: some of the lies about the trans community are so 571 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: ridiculous that they're not even about the trans community. It's 572 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: just about hurting people and separating people so that it's 573 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: easier to market money and to make money. That's that's 574 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: my simplistic version of it. But we do talk about 575 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: all of this at home, and my kids are like, enough, 576 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: can I just have the lamp job please? Right? Well, 577 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: it's fantastic to like not playing us algorithm, right, I mean, 578 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: we're trying to, you know, as much as kids are 579 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: so absorbed by social media that all of these things 580 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: are still steering you into one category where you'll inevitably spent, 581 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: and just breaking it down like that it makes it 582 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: all the boundaries even more absurd. And you know, just 583 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: one more point of that, Like I I'm not trans. 584 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm a mom raising a trans kid and assis gender 585 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: kid and a queer kid. But if my kid is trans, 586 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: I can't be so far away from that. I cannot 587 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: be so far off of that. As his mom and 588 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: as a human, we're very close to one another, and 589 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: so I don't I refuse to see the difference, this 590 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: brave difference between my son and myself, and so I 591 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: have really just rejected that idea that he's different from me. 592 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: I think the world treats him differently. But I don't 593 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: see this as like a trans issue over there. I 594 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: see us and this is gonna be hard. I see 595 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: it's a we are trans, we are gay, we are queer, 596 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: Like we've got to embrace it as we because if 597 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: it's not you as your kid, if it's not your 598 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: kid as your aunt, if it's not your aunt, it's 599 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: your friend's kid. And so this is really a wee issue. 600 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: And I bring that to the table with my kids, 601 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: like you're not going to avoid this. You cannot avoid 602 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: this conversation. It's a human issue. Absolutely. We do something 603 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: here um called what are what are we coveting in 604 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: the coven? And um it's like this, it's a silly 605 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: fun part of it where it could be you know, 606 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,479 Speaker 1: something that you're that you're liking, that you're doing, could 607 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: be a product that you're using, you know, I mean, 608 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: like I love this cup. I constantly come with it. 609 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: You know, it could be the cup. I don't know 610 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: anything that you want to sort of share with us. Okay, 611 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: so I have I'm two and I'm going through full 612 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 1: on menopause UM and I've declared it, like I don't 613 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: like when people like, oh, your menopausal, that's why you're glumpy. 614 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: But I I'm acknowledging that I'm a menopausal. And I've 615 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: been working with my friend Naomi Watts and she has 616 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: a really great brand UM called Stripes. I am Stripes, 617 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: and it's product from Badge to Scalp, and it's community 618 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 1: and it's um research so that we can find out 619 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: more about this important phase in life that affects half 620 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: the population. I'm a better mom when I understand what's 621 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: going on in my body. I'm a better lover, better 622 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: friend when I have you know, agency over my own self. 623 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: And so I encourage anyone who's going through menopause to 624 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: tap tap into Stripes. But also any kid who's trying 625 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: to figure out what their mom was going through, or 626 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: any kid who's trying to figure out what this person 627 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,959 Speaker 1: in my life who maybe menopausal is going through. Log 628 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: on because I tell my kids, now, UM, don't talk 629 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: to me. I'm going through a hot flash. I just 630 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: need five minutes. I love that because I forget Michelle, 631 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: you and I were talking about I'm like, I have 632 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: no idea about the next phase in my life. I mean, 633 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm making I said, like, the biggest joke is I'm 634 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: not having need more children, and every single time I 635 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: swear no more kids. So right now, as my baby 636 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: is two months old today, I am not having any 637 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: more kids. But then I'm thinking the next days in 638 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: my life is menopause, and I know zero about it 639 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: out as well, and like there's so much more information 640 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: happening now, more conversation and more research, so hopefully, like 641 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, in five years, we'll just no more. But 642 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: it was the big mystery for me too, And so 643 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: that's the thing I've been gravocating towards understanding the second 644 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: half of life, which is a biological phase. You can't 645 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: avoid it, um, and looking at it as opportunity as 646 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: opposed to like, you know, nail in the coffin. Yeah no, 647 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: I've heard that it's not to grow. Yeah, absolutely, all right, 648 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: mine mine today. I'm cheating today, guys, because you're not 649 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: supposed to have connections to it too much. Um, you 650 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: know what. Yeah, we're all cheating, you know what. But 651 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: we get to make our own rules because we're witches. Um. 652 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: I Mine is actually these these earrings that you guys 653 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 1: constantly see me where they're like these little hoops and um, 654 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: and you guys write me about them all the time, 655 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: And they're actually Michelle's brand of her we her jewelry 656 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: brand her, and I love them for for many reasons. 657 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: So the gold hoops for you guys who are like 658 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: not seeing me because this is radio and I still 659 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, from they're pretty gold, yes, they're and they're 660 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: very light. And the other thing I like from having 661 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: small kids is that they open easily, so then undoubtedly 662 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: when one of my kids pulls it, it never hurts. 663 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: It just pulls right off. But I also haven't lost 664 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: them too, so I don't know what kind of like 665 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: magical powers you put in these hoops, Michelle, but those 666 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: that's my favorite thing. I can't indulge. My witch secrets 667 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: its energy. But I'm wearing a pair too, even though 668 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: again this is an audio show, going to send you 669 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: some hoops, Jodie, but mine is because Jodie, I also 670 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: know you have like career and skink in you know, 671 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: beauty and skincare, and you've done everything I I'm doing 672 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: the mask. I've got the led mask. Today, Doctor Gross 673 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,959 Speaker 1: red light because I just got a peel last week 674 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: and so I was filtered as hell when we were 675 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: recording the show, looking like a snake. And I've been 676 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: learning this thing. Blue light therapy combats wrinkles, bacteria, all 677 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: the things this once Dr Dennis Gross, and I like 678 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: it because it makes me look like Darth Vader and 679 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: it scares all my house guests and my dog, so um, 680 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I will thank you, Thank you so much. Pleasure. 681 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: All right, ladies, thanks for listening. Don't forget to rate, review, subscribe, 682 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: share it with your friends. We love having all of 683 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: you guys coming and joining our coven. We're really having 684 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: so much fun with this project. Thank you, ladies. Find 685 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 1: us on Instagram, at which is a non pod, and 686 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: anywhere you get your podcasts, and we will see you 687 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: next week.