1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You take a trip, 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: sometimes you get excited the anticipation of seeing a new 3 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: place or going somewhere. For me, many times, that excitement 4 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: soon turns to anxiety because I'm worried do I have 5 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: everything I need? Lots of times I have to travel 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: to do appearances and things like that, and I'm terrified 7 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: of getting my luggage loss from one and thinking maybe 8 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: I haven't brought certain items that I might need. You 9 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: can always buy those things in another environment, but you know, 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: you're familiar with those things that you like, those things 11 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: that you use on a regular basis. When it comes 12 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: to planning a homicide, how do you begin to formulate 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: that in your brain? There are people that have engaged 14 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: in the killing of others and they have a murder 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: kit that they put together. How do you decide what 16 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: to pack? How do you know what tool you want 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: to bring? Today? On Bodybags, we're going to talk about 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: a triple homicide. Three men that were found bound, gagged, 19 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: and shot in the back of the head in two 20 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: separate locations. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. 21 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Joining me today is my friend Dave Mack. He's a 22 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: senior crime reporter for Crime Online. Dave, I don't know 23 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: that you've ever contemplated something like this, but you know, 24 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: you begin to think, Wow, what would it take? What 25 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: you know? This is not this is a monumental hit 26 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: to climb an exercise in conducting something like this, participating 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: in it. What are you going to need? What are 28 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: you going to need before you go out? And you 29 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: seemingly perhaps maybe kidnap people. And then once you kidnap them, 30 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: what are you going to do with them? How are 31 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: you going to dispose of them? It's certainly something that 32 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: would give you pause, to say the very least. 33 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: It would require a lot of planning, and it would 34 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: require time. It would probably require help to lay it 35 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: out for you. It's a thirty in the morning and 36 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: a guy is walking down the street. He looks over 37 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: and sees what appears to be two bodies, one laying 38 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 2: face up, the other laying face down. Point of that 39 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: out right now, Joe, because I'm wondering if you can 40 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: help us understand if that was an actual sign of something. 41 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: But both the men had been bound and gagged, and 42 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: both men have been shot in the head. This is 43 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: a thirty in the morning. About twenty minutes later, police 44 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: get a call of another person found about two miles 45 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: from the first what they're referring to as the dump site. 46 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: Two miles from that first dump site, they find another 47 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 2: man and he has found the same way, bound, gagged, 48 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: shot in the head. That's three that we actually can 49 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: confirm or all dead. But we actually have a fourth 50 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: victim as well. Somehow he escaped. Not sure how he 51 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: was bound, gagged and shot in the head, but he survived. 52 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: So we're unpacking three murders and an attempted murder and 53 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: one man who apparently did it all. You started off 54 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: talking about preparation, Joe Scott Morgan. You've been in this 55 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: your entire adult life. Have you ever seen a case 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: where one individual could pull off this type of spree? 57 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: No, No, not where you had this many people that 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: were and we're talking about grown men where they're being 59 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: not found in one central location. Day Now, I've worked 60 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: a lot of cases where I had multiple homicides, but 61 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: guess what, they were all located in the same dwelling. 62 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: Most of the time. You have this idea of containment 63 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: where someone will walk into a residence and they'll begin 64 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: to fire randomly. But you have containment yet four walls, 65 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: there's only a couple of ways you can leave. I remember, many, 66 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: many years ago, I worked a multiple homicide case that 67 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: involved one guy where he climbed through the window in 68 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: a home where a card game was going on. He 69 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: killed everybody in the room, killed everybody, but you know 70 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: he had them contained in one tight space. How do 71 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: you corral three four? How do you corral them in 72 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: one place without having another set of hands, another set 73 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: of eyes to help you. If you're talking four adult males, 74 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: how's one guy going to do this? And not just 75 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: that you're having to bind them. That means you're restraining 76 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: them in some way, restraining their hands, and you're having 77 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: to put a gag in their mouth. So you're telling 78 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: me one guy can make four grown men submit to this. 79 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: You're going to tell all of them to get down 80 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: on the floor, because I got to tell you, if 81 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 1: you're holding them at gunpoint, where you put in the gun, 82 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: where you put in the gun while you're tying their 83 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: hands or placing a gag in their mouth, you think 84 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: about that and it just seems an impossibility. And how 85 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: are you going to transport them in the same vehicle perhaps, 86 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: I don't know that would require I guess you could 87 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: get four adult men in the backseat of sedan bound 88 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: and gagged. You know, I'm thinking van because you need 89 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: you need an ability. I would think to not just quester, 90 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: but you know, kind of have hidden from view a 91 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: windowless van perhaps, or you know, how are you going 92 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: to get them to lay down on the floor of 93 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: a vehicle as you're driving? What are you going to do? 94 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: You're you're going to take the pistol and hold it 95 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: over your shoulder while you're driving down the road. 96 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: Well, it makes you wonder were they killed somewhere? I mean, 97 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: obviously they were. The police say they were kidnapped. Okay, 98 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: they're saying straight out. These men were kidnapped and then 99 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: killed and then dumped. And as you mentioned, I mean, 100 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: how do you control grown men and they're all young, 101 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: they're between twenty five and thirty five, and you've got 102 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: a suspect here who is fifty eight. Elias Goudino is 103 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: the suspect, and he's able to control three grown men. 104 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: Don't know if it was all at the same time. 105 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: What we do know is that two were dumped in 106 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: one location. I'm kind of curious as to why it 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: took till eight thirty in the morning before a motorist 108 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: was able to identify their bodies over here where they 109 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: dumped in the middle of the night and people just 110 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: didn't notice, or were they dumped minutes before where they 111 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: were reported, because twenty minutes later police get a call 112 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: from a couple of miles away saying, hey, we got 113 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: a dump body over here. 114 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: It makes a question as well, you know who call that? 115 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: In the second one, right, you got the motorists that's 116 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 1: going down the road and they visualize, if you will, 117 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: the bodies. This is an important thing too that we 118 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: do in investigation. We have human remains that are found 119 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: in a location. You want to think about points of access. 120 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: You're learning a lot about a case when you find 121 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: bodies immediately adjacent to a roadway, because it gives you 122 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: an indication that the subject that is conveying the individuals, 123 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: whether they are alive or dead, did not go off 124 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: the beaten path very far, all right, perhaps depend upon 125 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: the type of roadway it is. We're thinking hard top 126 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: black top road and then they're just going to drive 127 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: to a location park on the side of the road. 128 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: You're running the risk of being seen, so you would 129 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: probably have to do this in the weipurs. You're going 130 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: to open up a door, take them out of the vehicle, 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: and then take them to a location. How do you 132 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: And here's another point where they killed. At the same time, 133 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: you've got these two guys that are found deposited. As 134 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: you had mentioned, one was face up, which in our 135 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: parlance and medical legal death investigation, we refer to that 136 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: as souppine face up. I could go on forever and ever. 137 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: Why we would not use the term face up in 138 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: a crime report because I've seen bodies that are the 139 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: chest is upward, but the head is turned around. And 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: when you get into semantics with attorneys, and that's where 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: they dance. So we use the term soup pine most 142 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: of the time because you're not committing yourself or prone 143 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: or recumbent. Can we learn anything about the way the 144 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: deposition occurred. You've got one that is prone and one 145 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: that is sue pine where they taken out individually and shot. 146 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: Because I got to tell you, Dave, unless my legs 147 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: are bound, I'm hopping to my feet and I'm sprinting 148 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: as quickly as I possibly can. You might get me, 149 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to be immediately adjacent to the person. 150 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: I guess everybody kind of says what they will and 151 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: will not do under a set of circumstances like that. 152 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: But what we're trying to explore here from a forensic 153 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: standpoint is the dynamics of the event. Back to the roadway. 154 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: I think that this is very important as well. You 155 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: mentioned the key piece here where they killed somewhere else. Well, okay, 156 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: let's think about the injuries that we know about at 157 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: this point in time. We're talking about head injuries. Right. 158 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: The head, the brain, all right, is arguably the most 159 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: vascular area of the body. There is a tremendous amount 160 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: of blood supply that goes to that one location of 161 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: the body. If your kid and you fall and you 162 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: split your head open, sometimes it looks a lot worse 163 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: than it is because you're bleeding so profusely from that location, 164 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: there's a lot of blood. If they were shot saying 165 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: another location and taken from the car and placed out 166 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: there in this location, was there any kind of detectable 167 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: blood trail leading from that side of the road to 168 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: the final place where they were deposited. Also, if you've 169 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: killed both of them, do you have any kind of 170 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: crossing of the blood trails where you've got type A 171 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: that's leading away to the final deposition, and you've got 172 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: type B blood that is leading out there, And at 173 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: any point in time, do the lines of blood that 174 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: are found on the ground do that converge and split off? 175 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: Was there an attempt to clean up a blood trail, 176 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, did they drag soil around or is what 177 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: you're seeing right there at that location the extent of 178 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: the deposition of blood. If they're standing over them, the 179 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: perpetrator in this particular case, and they shoot them in 180 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: the head, there's a high probability they're going to drop 181 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: right there, So you're not going to have blood trails 182 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: leading off in any direction. That sort of thing. It's 183 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: a curious, curious scene, that's for sure. I've never been 184 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: accused of being the most coordinated person in the world, 185 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: but when it comes to coordination, there are several different types. 186 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: As an investigator, when you have multiple scenes that are 187 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: probably involving the same event, it requires coordination. Any partner 188 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: that you have in the investigative world all got to 189 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: be seen from the same sheet of music, because the 190 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: slightest little variance from anything can really bespoil the investigation 191 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: moving forward. You need very carefully to assess both of 192 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: the scenes because, Dave, one of the things you're looking 193 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: for out there at these scenes are commonalities. You're looking 194 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: for things that they have in common. 195 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: In this particular case, the police were able to pick 196 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: up a suspect fairly quickly. What we do know is 197 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: the three individuals that are dead. Ema Rees is twenty five, 198 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: Victor Virella Rodriguez is thirty one, and Domingo Castillo res 199 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: is thirty five. Don't know anything about the fourth victim, 200 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: So we're dealing with twenty five, thirty one, and thirty 201 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: five year old men and a suspect, Elias Gudino, who 202 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: is fifty eight. Joe, I have looked this case back 203 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: and forth trying to figure out how do the police 204 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: so quickly go to Elias Gudino. Well, there actually is 205 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: a reason. When you peel the band aid off his life, 206 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: you find out a lot of things about his past 207 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: that might be part of what we're seeing here. Public 208 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: records show that Gudino at one time owned a place 209 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: called the I'm Going to destroy this word, and I apologize, 210 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: but English is my first and only language. Anything other 211 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: than that is just not going to be pronounced properly. Okay. 212 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: But he owned a store La Micho, Ghana, takira and grocery. 213 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: Born in Mexico, came to the US in the nineteen 214 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: eighties and became an American citizen in two thousand and nine. 215 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: Mister Gudino is living in Akron. He had at that 216 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 2: time a business. I think it was a landscape business, 217 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: but that was just a cover because, according to federal agents, 218 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: was a drug trafficking organization. They had information showing that 219 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: Goudino had been trafficking drugs since the nineteen nineties. He 220 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: had an operation that was based in southern Mexico but 221 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: reached across the United States in Ohio, Colorado, Oklahoma, and 222 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: other states. Much of that investigation was focused on Akron, Ohio, 223 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: where officials said he was actually supplying cocaine dealers and 224 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: operating his business. Now, when investigators tapped Gudino's phone, they 225 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: heard him talking to people in Mexico and other states 226 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: about what he was moving through the trafficking organization. So 227 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: we had an international drug smuggling ring all out of Akron, Ohio, 228 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: headed by Elias Gudino. When investigators moved in, Gudino and 229 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: another man were bringing a shipment of cocaine into Akron. 230 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: Court records show that they stopped a vehicle and they 231 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: found about eight kilas of cocaine hidden in a compartment 232 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: near the radiator. So a few months later, Gudino pleads guilty. 233 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: Obviously it was a negotiated thing, two federal charges involving 234 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: drug trafficking. He was sentenced to twelve and a half 235 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: years in prison, followed by five years of probation. He 236 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: served his time. He was released in November of twenty seventeen. 237 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: Court records say that he remained on probation until May 238 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: of last year. So that brings us to now, okay, 239 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: of the life of Elias Gudino. So one has to 240 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: wonder these current murders are they part of a payback 241 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: for what send him to prison in two thousand and nine. 242 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: Possibly you have to try to understand relationships between people. 243 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: You know, we were talking about mister Gaudino. He's fifty 244 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: eight years old. Now, unless you're working for him, I 245 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: got to say, I don't see a fifty eight year 246 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: old cat hanging out with twenty somethings. From a perspective 247 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: of behavior, you begin to think about, well, what kind 248 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: of connection did they have? Well, it's probably not going 249 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: to be kind of this casual, friendly, let's go play darts, 250 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: have a couple of beers relationship. You generally are going 251 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: to gravitate towards those people that are in your age group. 252 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: So what is it? And this is another thing when 253 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about a violent crime like homicide. One of 254 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: the many motivating factors behind homicide is passion, rage, those 255 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: sort of things that are associated with kind of an intimacy. 256 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: And it doesn't necessarily have to be sexual, but it 257 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: has to be something so intimate it gins up that 258 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of rage in an individual to want to eradicate 259 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: a person. So if we're thinking that that relationship doesn't 260 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: exist on that plane, then perhaps the answer rests somewhere else. 261 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: Are these in fact business associates? Is there something that 262 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: got between Gudino and his money or Gadino and his 263 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: freedom as you had mentioned, you know, that's a big 264 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: piece to this. Think about messages having been sent. I 265 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: think that that's certainly something because boy, you talk about 266 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: on a grand scale to send a message. You're going 267 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: to wipe out three lives like this, What kind of 268 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: message are you sending? 269 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned that they might not be direct relations 270 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: because of their ages. He's fifty eight. These guys are 271 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: between twenty thirty five. In two thousand and nine, when 272 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: he was rested and dealt with all the charges, n 273 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: ma Res was only eleven years old. 274 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, how could he have had anything to do with trafficking? 275 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: Maybe a parent, brother, sister. 276 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'll show you. You know that 277 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: sort of thing. You never know how these things can 278 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: be networked together, and sometimes you uncover some of the 279 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: most bizarre types of relationships when you have an individual 280 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: that's attempting to message somebody by use of this level 281 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: of violence. There's another thing too. I was just going 282 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: back over the images from where these two individuals were 283 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: found together. It's kind of a bucolic looking neighborhood. It 284 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: is a two lane blacktop. The woods are immediately adjacent 285 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: to several residences that look nice their new bills or 286 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: newer bills. And then across from these homes is where 287 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: the bodies were deposited in kind of a thinly wooded area. 288 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: This is a location that someone would have had to 289 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: have been familiar with. And what's quite striking here is 290 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: you can see houses immediately adjacent to the road like 291 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: that are just across the road, and then there are 292 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: more houses that you can barely make out through the 293 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: woodline where the bodies are found. You're going to go 294 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: out there and shoot these guys, pop them in the 295 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: back of the head where that sound could be heard, 296 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: and not just one guy, You're going to do two 297 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: guys out there. That suggests a certain level of comfort 298 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: I think with a particular area when you're looking at 299 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: suspect and you're trying to determine what kind of profile 300 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: the individual might fit that would perpetrate something that is 301 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: this heinous and would be done in an area that 302 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Arguably, nothing like this has ever occurred 303 00:18:50,359 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: in Well, we know where it ended. It ended in 304 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: two separate wooded areas. But you know, I think the 305 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: big question that just kind of hangs in the air 306 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: at this moment relative to what we know about this 307 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: case is where did it begin? You know, there are 308 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: certain things that we can look to in forensics that 309 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: can potentially give us those answers. 310 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: I'm curious, Joseph Scott Morgan. It seems to me that 311 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 2: we see things on TV where police immediately say, well, 312 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 2: they're obviously shot over here and drug over here and 313 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But when police come on a scene, 314 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: they get a phone call at eight thirty in the morning, 315 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: we had two bodies over here. Twenty minutes later, we 316 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: got a body over here. When they start the investigation, 317 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: they're looking at deceased individuals and their marking time as 318 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: to how they're finding them. Can they that they were 319 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 2: killed somewhere else and were placed here for a reason? 320 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 2: Can they determine that based on the condition of the body. 321 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they certainly can. And one thing that's really 322 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: nagging me in this case, Dave, is that, just given 323 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: the imagery that we kind of see from the scene here, 324 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: there are other locations that you could go that are 325 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: far flong. You've got river beds, you've got gullies, you've 326 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: got washes all over the place, places that would make 327 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: it difficult for a regular person that's just going about 328 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: their business to visualize a body. And of course, if 329 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: you can obscure a body, that gives you time as 330 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: a perpetrator to get as much distance between yourself and 331 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: that body. That's not what happened here. These bodies were 332 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: easily seen from the roadway. It would be no trouble Oncesoever, 333 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: once the sun rose sufficiently and blasted light onto this area, 334 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: you could see these individuals laying in you know, I 335 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: would describe as a thinly wooded area. Why would this 336 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: individual choose this area where they kill there? We talked 337 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: about the sound you would have heard the sound I 338 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: think out here, and how could we tell if they 339 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: had been killed in another location and then brought to 340 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: this location. 341 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: You know. 342 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: I talked about the evidence of any kind of blood 343 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: trail that was leading out to the body. But also 344 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: the longer we go down the post mortem interval timeline, 345 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: that's PMI, post mortem interval, we'd look for changes in 346 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: human remains. We look for things like riger mortis. If 347 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: someone is say, seated in a chair, okay, and they 348 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: are shot, they're shot in chest or the head, and 349 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: they're left seated in that chair over a very short 350 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: period of time, rigidity will begin to set in. If 351 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: you get four hours down range, the body will not 352 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: ruggamortars will not be fully fixed, but the body will 353 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: be appreciably rigid. So if you were to take that 354 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: body out of a chair, place it in a car, 355 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: and then take it and deposit it somewhere, the body's 356 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: going to have kind of a contracted look to it, 357 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: where the knees are pulled up, maybe the arms are 358 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: kind of angular. And this is something that would be 359 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: associated with someone that had been seated in a chair 360 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: long enough for them to begun stiffening. But the other 361 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: thing that sets in a lot quicker than that is 362 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: post mortem lividity or liver mortis liv R, which is 363 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: the gravitational settling of blood. If you've ever when you 364 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: were a kid, or maybe you have kids, you take 365 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: them out of the playground, they hang upside down on 366 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: monkey bars and the head starts to turn red and swell. Well, 367 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: that's blood that's actually being it's gravitationally dependent. It's pulling 368 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: down to that area. It's literally the same principle. Gravity 369 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: is pulling blood, which is liquid. It's viscous liquid, but 370 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: it's pulling it down to that lowest point of gravity. 371 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: Think about your the basement in your house. One of 372 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: the things your parents are always worried about, you know, 373 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: is there water setting up in the basement. Though water's 374 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: going to seek the lowest point. It's the same principle. 375 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: So if you have postmonal lividity, which you can actually 376 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: see presenting within twenty minutes of death, Dave, that takes 377 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: a bit longer for it to fix. But if you 378 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: have someone, say, for instance, where they're shot in the 379 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: back of the head, they're left seated in a chair 380 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: while prep is being made to transport the bodies, blood 381 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: will settle to the ankles. You'll see it pronounced in 382 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: the feet, You'll see it on the backs of the legs. 383 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: Now where the buttocks was touching the chair, it'll be 384 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: what we refer to as blanched out. It'll still be 385 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: white kind of because the blood can't get into those 386 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: areas because it's secluded by the pressure of the supporting 387 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: area of the chair to the relative to the buttock 388 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: where where it's touching. Also on the back there's pressure 389 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: being applied to the back. You might see it around 390 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: the shoulders or down at the base of the back 391 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: where it has settled and modeled there. But you'll have 392 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: these indicators. So when an investigator goes out to the 393 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 1: scene and they begin to visualize the body. They're going 394 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: to say, wow, look at this distribution of post mortem 395 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 1: lividity here. This is really odd. It looks like they 396 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: had been in a chair, or maybe if they were 397 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: face up using that term, if they were face up supine, 398 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: and you have lividity that is all on the anterior, 399 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: that means on the front of the body. But yet 400 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: they're laying on their back. Guess what you're going to know. 401 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: At some point in time, this person had laid on 402 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: their belly long enough for blood to settle to that area, 403 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: and now they're being taken out of a vehicle and 404 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: placed on the ground so that their back is supporting 405 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: the body. That's going to give you a different presentation. 406 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: Now, Joe, let me ask you this. When you're talking 407 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: about rigger mortis. Okay, I've always heard it called rigor mortis, 408 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: So I apologize in advance. 409 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: No, no, no, I know it's two different pronunciations people say. 410 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: Some people will say rigor yeah. 411 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: So riger mortis. All right, you've got a body, body 412 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 2: shot dead, boom. It takes a certain amount of time 413 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: for rigor mortis to even set in. But then after 414 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: an extended period of time, doesn't the body loosen. 415 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, But Dave, you're so far down range after that 416 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: period of time, and that's that's called becoming flacid at 417 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: that point in time. For folks that don't know with 418 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: ryger rigor a rigidity, some people will use that term, 419 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: what's happening well in the joints in particular, you have 420 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: lactic acid that's beginning to build up. We have lactic 421 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: acid that's naturally occurring in the remains in our in 422 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: our body in life. But the thing about it is 423 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: is that we're metabolizing that and so it doesn't set 424 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: in the closest you will ever understand. The sensation of 425 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: riger in life is if you haven't worked out in 426 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: a while and you go to them, you wake up 427 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: the next morning, you're stiff. You'll see a stiffening in 428 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: the joints, and that's lactic acid. You can take things 429 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: that will resolve the pain immediately are in time, but 430 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: either way it's going to work its way out. The 431 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: dead can't metabolize lactic acid, so for them, that body 432 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: is not going to be free from that rigidity. For 433 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: it's variable. It's very much environmentally dependent. Heat kind of 434 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: speeds things up in the decompositional process. You might be 435 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: looking at thirty six hours plus or minus before the 436 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: individual becomes flaccid again, which means limbs are flexible. They're 437 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: flexible at the knees, the hips. You can actually open 438 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: the mouth. The mouth, believe it or not, is one 439 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: of the most glaring examples. It's so rigid. Little piece 440 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: of history here. If you've ever seen a Christmas Carol, 441 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: you know Charles Dickens when Marley's ghost first appears in 442 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: several iterations of the play and the teleplay and that 443 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Harly has a kerchief tied around his head. Well, 444 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that they used to do, 445 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: because if you didn't, the body would develop what's referred 446 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: to as the O sign. The mouth looks like an 447 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: O okay, and that's because the jaw opens and then 448 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: it freezes. And certainly during Victorian times, that was considered improper. 449 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: Look like you could pitch pennies in a person's mouth 450 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: if they're laying in state, So they would they would 451 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: take a kerchief and tide around the head and that 452 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: would lock the jaw into place, and then riger would 453 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: set in and the mouth was kind of frozen that way, 454 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: so you'll begin to see the flacidity, if you will, 455 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: of the body after a period of time. If you 456 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: get out to that point as a time marker, you're 457 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: going to know that the individual has been out there 458 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: for a while, or they had been retained in another 459 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: location for a protracted period of time. You couple that 460 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: with other findings like certainly live or mortis, which we mentioned, 461 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: or post mortem lividity. So here's another term that I 462 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: haven't thrown out there is called alger mortise, and this 463 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 1: is the term that most people associate with post mortem interval, 464 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: and that's temperature body temperature, which is arguably the most 465 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: unreliable thing that you can use in order to determine 466 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: post mortem interval. And then net autopsy, of course we 467 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: use the gaster contents and kind of the process of 468 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: food making it through the digestive track. But you couple 469 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: all of that at the scene and you're trying to 470 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: create a picture. At that moment time, you've got two 471 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: dead guys in this one location that's easily seen from 472 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: the road. You've got another person that has been deposited 473 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: what two miles away are they in the same state 474 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: at that moment time. And then you've got this one survivor, 475 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: this guy that seemingly played dead. Can you imagine that 476 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: being shot in the head and surviving a gunshot going 477 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: to the head. 478 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: How in the world we've got two men in a 479 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, a fairly public place that are dumped, 480 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: one face up, one face down, and then twenty minutes 481 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: later we get a call of another body dumped in 482 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: a place where people could see. I can't get my 483 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: head around this as to these three victims. Were they 484 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: out there all night and they were just discovered at 485 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: that time, or was this a case of they were 486 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: dumped within minutes of the call coming in. 487 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fascinating thing here. The one thing that 488 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: you have out in this location is the cover of darkness, because, 489 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: as you well know, Dave, we both kind of live 490 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: in rural areas. Black as pitch, as they say at night, 491 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: literally is if you're away from the city, you can't 492 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: see your hand in front of your face on a 493 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: moonless night, and on this particular evening it had been raining. 494 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: It was raining out there. Dave, just looking at the 495 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: imagery from from the crime scene, roadways are wet, the 496 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: sky is overcast, so most probably there would not have 497 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: been even ambient light from stars or the moon or whatever. 498 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: The only chance you might have of illumination out there 499 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: would obviously be headlights that might shine on the area, 500 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: some type of floodlight. It would have been very very 501 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: dark out in these locations, so it would seem the 502 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: best time to have done this would be under the 503 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: cover of darkness. Again, this brings us back to this 504 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: idea of depositing of the bodies. I think another curious 505 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: thing that we can discover from not just the scene 506 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: but also from the bodies is what if we mentioned 507 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: we've mentioned restraint, because they use this term bound, What 508 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: were they bound with? Well, were all four subjects, including 509 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 1: the one that escaped, were they bound with the same thing? 510 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: Are we talking zip ties here, we're talking rope. Was 511 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: it the same kind of rope or did they just 512 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: willing grab rope from different locations and tie these individuals 513 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: wrist up Where they tied in the front, where they 514 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: tied in the back. What kind of knot was used? 515 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: Because that's going to tell you a lot about the 516 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: individual that is engaged in this. If it's a knot, 517 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: There are people out there that will simply sit down 518 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: and they will give you a profile on an individual 519 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: based upon the kind of knot that they can tie. 520 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: It tells you about what kind of background the person 521 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: might have. You've got a person that has an old 522 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: sailor for instance, they're very adept at tying complicated knots 523 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: things that I could never figure out. Or you have 524 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: somebody that just has basic rudimentary skills as to how 525 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: to tie a knot. Or if it's a zip tie 526 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: where they purchase from the same place, are these same 527 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: type of zip ties? Because there's so many out there. 528 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: And then the gag, what's it made out of? Is 529 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: it a ballgag that you purchased at a store you 530 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: know somebody would use in sex play that sort of thing. 531 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: Is it a rag that they tied around somebody or 532 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: did they stuff something in their mouth and then secure 533 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: it with a rag? And then the big question here, 534 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: I think is if we're talking about gunshot wounds, which 535 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: we are, we've got at least a minimum four. Are 536 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: there spent casings? Is there any evidence that at the 537 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: scene they found spent brass laying around? And let me 538 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: tell you what else they would have done out of 539 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: the scene, Dave. After these bodies are removed. There's a 540 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: high probability and they could do this before as well. 541 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: But there's a high probability that if these gunshot wounds 542 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: are through and through, they're going to bring a metal 543 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: detector out there. If they find a projectile in the 544 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: ground or maybe two, you have to ask the question, 545 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: do these two projectiles marry up with the same weapon 546 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: or the casings the spent casings. Do they have the 547 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: same breech block mark on the back of them or 548 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: pen strikes, you know, where the firing pin hits the 549 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: primer cap or are the extraction marks the same the 550 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: ejector marks. Are they the same or closely resemble that 551 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: they could have originated from the same weapon. All of 552 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: these questions are going to play in to this investigation 553 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: and to ultimately how many people were involved, Was it 554 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: a single perpetrator, where were these individuals killed, and where 555 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: they all deposited at the same time. I'm Joseph Scott 556 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks