1 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:23,050 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Joe Biden has made up his mind about this decision, 2 00:00:23,090 --> 00:00:25,570 Speaker 1: and there's actually an email that has gone out to 3 00:00:25,730 --> 00:00:29,010 Speaker 1: supporters that said that Joe Biden has selected Kamala Harris 4 00:00:29,290 --> 00:00:32,330 Speaker 1: as his running mate. There's actually an entire Biden low. 5 00:00:33,290 --> 00:00:35,970 Speaker 1: I'm Ashley Ford and this is the Chronicles of naw 6 00:00:36,370 --> 00:00:39,850 Speaker 1: where we ask writers to dream up short stories inspired 7 00:00:39,890 --> 00:00:42,130 Speaker 1: by the news. If elected, she would be the first 8 00:00:42,210 --> 00:00:45,170 Speaker 1: woman vice president, the first lack vice president. She would 9 00:00:45,170 --> 00:00:49,090 Speaker 1: be the highest ranking Asian American in US history. Now 10 00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:52,170 Speaker 1: that Joe Biden has officially picked a woman as his 11 00:00:52,290 --> 00:00:55,810 Speaker 1: running mate, can we talk about his weird, uncomfortable history 12 00:00:55,850 --> 00:00:59,010 Speaker 1: with women. He was talking to me while he was 13 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,930 Speaker 1: rubbing my nose with his mister Biden himself said, it 14 00:01:03,050 --> 00:01:07,050 Speaker 1: was never his intention to make anyone uncomfortable. And our 15 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:10,370 Speaker 1: social wars began to change or shoot it and the 16 00:01:10,450 --> 00:01:14,450 Speaker 1: bomb is a protected personal space have been reset. I 17 00:01:14,610 --> 00:01:18,170 Speaker 1: get it. I get it. Oh, yes, we're going to 18 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:22,890 Speaker 1: go there. With the election looming. It is an uncomfortable subject, 19 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:26,890 Speaker 1: but it's there. Joe Biden has been a handsy guy 20 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:30,770 Speaker 1: throughout his career and it's had a chilling effect on 21 00:01:30,850 --> 00:01:33,890 Speaker 1: some of the women he touched. What just happened? Did 22 00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:38,690 Speaker 1: that just happen? Did I think what just happened is 23 00:01:38,730 --> 00:01:42,650 Speaker 1: actually what happened? Laura Van Denberg's new book is a 24 00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:47,050 Speaker 1: collection of surreal stories about women making their way through 25 00:01:47,170 --> 00:01:51,530 Speaker 1: dark worlds. It's called I Hold a Wolf by the Ears. 26 00:01:52,050 --> 00:01:56,370 Speaker 1: She says, Biden's transgressions are emblematic of our time. Me 27 00:01:56,490 --> 00:02:00,450 Speaker 1: too has changed things a lot, but really has it. 28 00:02:00,970 --> 00:02:04,010 Speaker 1: I have been there, you know. I have absolutely had 29 00:02:04,010 --> 00:02:06,130 Speaker 1: those sorts of encounters with men and then sort of 30 00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:09,930 Speaker 1: been through that process of second guest saying and sort 31 00:02:09,930 --> 00:02:13,730 Speaker 1: of talking myself out of my own understandings and my 32 00:02:13,770 --> 00:02:17,130 Speaker 1: own perception. So I was interested in writing into that 33 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:23,650 Speaker 1: psychological territory. In a world gone haywire, sometimes art is 34 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:26,130 Speaker 1: the only thing that can make sense of it all. 35 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:34,010 Speaker 1: For a long time, only one person on earth, her 36 00:02:34,050 --> 00:02:38,450 Speaker 1: closest friend, knew about the incident. They used to work 37 00:02:38,490 --> 00:02:41,570 Speaker 1: on the hill, and what the Vice president had done 38 00:02:41,770 --> 00:02:45,730 Speaker 1: was insidious and hard to name if you weren't familiar 39 00:02:45,770 --> 00:02:48,050 Speaker 1: with the way some men in politics like to handle 40 00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:52,050 Speaker 1: women as though they were overgrown babies. No harm in 41 00:02:52,090 --> 00:02:59,090 Speaker 1: a little tickle, a pinch on the thigh, the incident 42 00:02:59,090 --> 00:03:01,970 Speaker 1: had occurred as a fundraiser, and when she whispered the 43 00:03:02,010 --> 00:03:05,890 Speaker 1: details at some desolate after party bar her friend had 44 00:03:05,890 --> 00:03:08,650 Speaker 1: asked if she planned to tell anyone, and she said, 45 00:03:09,330 --> 00:03:13,690 Speaker 1: of course. Now he's the vice president. I'm a nobody, nothing. 46 00:03:17,290 --> 00:03:20,730 Speaker 1: So she could not believe it when the former assemblywoman 47 00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:24,370 Speaker 1: from Nevada came forward many years later and described news 48 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:28,690 Speaker 1: cameras how the vice president had touched heart, smell my hair. 49 00:03:28,970 --> 00:03:31,810 Speaker 1: He had recently announced that he was running for president again, 50 00:03:32,250 --> 00:03:36,850 Speaker 1: and the assemblywoman believed that people needed to know. In 51 00:03:36,890 --> 00:03:39,930 Speaker 1: the middle of the press conference, her closest friend called 52 00:03:39,970 --> 00:03:44,610 Speaker 1: and said, you're still a nobody, a nothing. That woman 53 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:51,010 Speaker 1: you see on TV right now. They will ruin her life. Later, 54 00:03:51,250 --> 00:03:54,210 Speaker 1: as she packed for a three day conference in San Francisco, 55 00:03:54,730 --> 00:03:58,530 Speaker 1: she reminded herself that the vice president hadn't raped, hadn't 56 00:03:58,530 --> 00:04:00,610 Speaker 1: pressed her to a bed and waved his dick in 57 00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:04,810 Speaker 1: her face. She told herself that he wasn't a dangerous person, 58 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:08,450 Speaker 1: just oblivious to realities in which he did not sit 59 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:11,650 Speaker 1: at the center. She tried not to think about how 60 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:14,810 Speaker 1: such obliviousness was one of the most dangerous ways for 61 00:04:14,890 --> 00:04:19,530 Speaker 1: a person to be. She fell asleep to the news 62 00:04:19,810 --> 00:04:24,130 Speaker 1: where the assemblywoman was still talking, asking to be taken seriously, 63 00:04:24,610 --> 00:04:32,930 Speaker 1: to be believed in San Francisco. She had no idea 64 00:04:32,970 --> 00:04:36,450 Speaker 1: that her fate would be altered by airline miles, for 65 00:04:36,570 --> 00:04:38,770 Speaker 1: had she ended up on a different flight, or even 66 00:04:38,770 --> 00:04:41,730 Speaker 1: in a different row, she would have likely heeded her 67 00:04:41,770 --> 00:04:47,490 Speaker 1: friend's advice, run her business, gone on with her life. 68 00:04:48,090 --> 00:04:51,090 Speaker 1: But then at SFO, a gate agent called her up, 69 00:04:51,370 --> 00:04:54,610 Speaker 1: said she'd landed a complimentary upgrade, and printed a new 70 00:04:54,650 --> 00:05:02,730 Speaker 1: boarding pass for seat three D. She heard her seat 71 00:05:02,770 --> 00:05:07,050 Speaker 1: mate before she saw him, his voice like thunder sounding 72 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:09,970 Speaker 1: in the wings of a stage. When he appeared in 73 00:05:10,010 --> 00:05:15,050 Speaker 1: the aisle, he was flushed and booming into a cell phone. White, 74 00:05:15,170 --> 00:05:19,290 Speaker 1: broad shouldered, thick waves of sandy hair. He wore a 75 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:23,690 Speaker 1: yellow polo and khaki pants and brown leather loafers without socks. 76 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:27,810 Speaker 1: He flopped down next to her, knocking her complimentary bottled 77 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:32,290 Speaker 1: water to the floor, and kept on booming. She opened 78 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:42,530 Speaker 1: a travel magazine and shrank down into her seat. In 79 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:47,610 Speaker 1: the air, her seat MAT's attention turned to the flight attendants. Apparently, 80 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:50,410 Speaker 1: he took at least forty six first class flights a year, 81 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:53,210 Speaker 1: and in his opinion, everything about this one was wrong. 82 00:05:53,970 --> 00:05:57,130 Speaker 1: The hot towel was too cold, a replacement towel too hot. 83 00:05:57,690 --> 00:06:02,330 Speaker 1: The drink cart lacked some obscure brand of whiskey. Both 84 00:06:02,330 --> 00:06:05,450 Speaker 1: flight attendants in first class happened to be women. When 85 00:06:05,450 --> 00:06:08,130 Speaker 1: one of them, a tall brunette and a red neckscarf 86 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:11,890 Speaker 1: apologized about the whiskey for the hundredth time, the man 87 00:06:11,930 --> 00:06:14,730 Speaker 1: asked for her full name. He said he planned to 88 00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:18,010 Speaker 1: file a report. He demanded to know if she liked 89 00:06:18,050 --> 00:06:20,290 Speaker 1: her job, if she thought she'd deserved to keep it, 90 00:06:21,210 --> 00:06:27,210 Speaker 1: And then he laughed, a seat shaking, thigh slapping laugh, 91 00:06:27,890 --> 00:06:30,810 Speaker 1: like the whole thing had been in an extended, practical joke. 92 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:35,210 Speaker 1: Only then was the flight attendant permitted to walk away. 93 00:06:37,490 --> 00:06:41,970 Speaker 1: It was the laugh that made her stomach clench. Right 94 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:45,170 Speaker 1: when things were getting bad enough that another passenger might 95 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:48,210 Speaker 1: feel compelled to intervene, or the flight attendant might feel 96 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:52,850 Speaker 1: justified in using words like verbal abuse, He'd wielded his 97 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:56,850 Speaker 1: laugh like a shield. Don't be so sensitive, take a 98 00:06:56,930 --> 00:07:06,010 Speaker 1: joke already. Everything is normal here. That was the worst 99 00:07:06,010 --> 00:07:08,450 Speaker 1: thing about these incidents, she thought, as she watched the 100 00:07:08,450 --> 00:07:12,210 Speaker 1: flight attendant and flee the way They destroyed your confidence 101 00:07:12,250 --> 00:07:18,530 Speaker 1: in your own perceptions. She glanced around at the other 102 00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:21,370 Speaker 1: passengers and realized she and the flight attendants were the 103 00:07:21,410 --> 00:07:25,090 Speaker 1: only women in first class. She wondered if these other 104 00:07:25,130 --> 00:07:28,130 Speaker 1: men had noticed what she had just now, what it 105 00:07:28,130 --> 00:07:30,490 Speaker 1: would take for one of them to call out their 106 00:07:30,490 --> 00:07:38,370 Speaker 1: own kind. She finished her magazine, she drank a glass 107 00:07:38,410 --> 00:07:42,930 Speaker 1: of wine. Her seat mate watched ESPN and drank copious 108 00:07:42,930 --> 00:07:48,770 Speaker 1: amounts of a less obscure whiskey. She found herself thinking 109 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:51,930 Speaker 1: about the warm grip of the Vice President's hand on 110 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:55,970 Speaker 1: her neck, the way he pulled her in sudden and close, 111 00:07:56,410 --> 00:08:00,650 Speaker 1: his nose brushing her face. She had been terrified that 112 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:07,610 Speaker 1: he was going to kiss her Somewhere over Nebraska. Her 113 00:08:07,610 --> 00:08:11,570 Speaker 1: seat mate resurrected the whisky situation. Why don't you have 114 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:14,970 Speaker 1: what I want? He roared at the second flight attendant, 115 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:17,970 Speaker 1: an older blonde and a black cart again, who stood 116 00:08:18,050 --> 00:08:22,770 Speaker 1: rigid by the drink cart. She stretched up in her seat. 117 00:08:23,970 --> 00:08:27,810 Speaker 1: The other passengers were all reading newspapers or sleeping or 118 00:08:27,850 --> 00:08:32,810 Speaker 1: otherwise useless. She thought of the assemblywoman speaking on TV. 119 00:08:34,490 --> 00:08:38,170 Speaker 1: She tapped the man's shoulder, and he paused in his tirade, 120 00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:41,170 Speaker 1: giving the flight attendant enough cover to hurry the cart 121 00:08:41,210 --> 00:08:48,850 Speaker 1: down the aisle. You should be ashamed of yourself. She 122 00:08:48,970 --> 00:08:52,370 Speaker 1: felt light headed, her chest was tight, but she pushed on, 123 00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:58,530 Speaker 1: you've been acting like a bully this whole flight. He 124 00:08:58,690 --> 00:09:01,850 Speaker 1: lurched back into his seat and stared at her, panting 125 00:09:01,890 --> 00:09:05,530 Speaker 1: a little. She felt the heat rad heat from his body. 126 00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:10,810 Speaker 1: His cheeks were swollen red, his eyes slid around like 127 00:09:10,930 --> 00:09:15,370 Speaker 1: wet marbles. She imagined he'd probably already sized her up 128 00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:18,890 Speaker 1: during boarding and determined her to be a nothing. Hey 129 00:09:18,890 --> 00:09:47,090 Speaker 1: do you think you are? He slurred. She told him 130 00:09:47,130 --> 00:09:50,970 Speaker 1: that was three D by Laura Van Denburg, the narrator 131 00:09:51,210 --> 00:09:55,650 Speaker 1: with Cindy Cats. How are you doing today, Laura, I'm good, Ashley. 132 00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:58,970 Speaker 1: How are you doing? I'm pretty good. I've got to 133 00:09:59,050 --> 00:10:03,090 Speaker 1: know you leave us hanging there at the end. What 134 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:06,850 Speaker 1: do you think she told him there at the end. Yeah, Well, 135 00:10:06,850 --> 00:10:10,690 Speaker 1: this story was inspired a bit by interaction that I 136 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:14,570 Speaker 1: had with a man on a flight who is like 137 00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:18,130 Speaker 1: maybe the most appalling human being that I've ever encountered 138 00:10:18,170 --> 00:10:22,050 Speaker 1: in public or up there. So in my imagination she 139 00:10:22,210 --> 00:10:25,770 Speaker 1: said something maybe that was kind of close to what 140 00:10:26,050 --> 00:10:29,890 Speaker 1: I said in life, which is, you are being verbally abusive. 141 00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:33,890 Speaker 1: Your behavior is completely inappropriate, and I see what you're 142 00:10:33,890 --> 00:10:37,050 Speaker 1: doing and you have to stop. So what did he 143 00:10:37,090 --> 00:10:40,930 Speaker 1: say back to you? So he said something very close 144 00:10:41,010 --> 00:10:44,170 Speaker 1: to with a man on the plane set in the story, 145 00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:46,570 Speaker 1: which is, who do you think you are talking to 146 00:10:46,610 --> 00:10:49,090 Speaker 1: me like that? And then I repeated what I had 147 00:10:49,130 --> 00:10:52,410 Speaker 1: said the first time, and then he was really angry 148 00:10:52,490 --> 00:10:54,490 Speaker 1: for a minute and then just kind of passed out 149 00:10:54,530 --> 00:10:59,690 Speaker 1: and seemed to go to sleep, which everyone was happy about. Yes, 150 00:11:00,090 --> 00:11:01,850 Speaker 1: I like that. I like that you wore him down. 151 00:11:02,930 --> 00:11:09,090 Speaker 1: This story really gets into the situations where women feel uncomfortable. 152 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:15,290 Speaker 1: They are insidious situations, and the men in these situations 153 00:11:15,330 --> 00:11:23,130 Speaker 1: are often oblivious. What do you think women lose because 154 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:30,130 Speaker 1: of what men won't allow themselves to see or hear? Yeah, 155 00:11:30,250 --> 00:11:32,330 Speaker 1: it's like how much how much time do we have? 156 00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:36,410 Speaker 1: I understand this is, you know, really painful line of 157 00:11:36,490 --> 00:11:39,970 Speaker 1: conversation that's come up in the me too dialogues. This 158 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:44,970 Speaker 1: idea that because something happened to a woman early in 159 00:11:45,010 --> 00:11:48,290 Speaker 1: her career, she didn't pursue a particular path or she 160 00:11:48,370 --> 00:11:52,250 Speaker 1: didn't reach in a particular direction. And I think like, 161 00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:56,890 Speaker 1: in some ways, you know, the greatest cruelty of the 162 00:11:57,010 --> 00:12:01,370 Speaker 1: kind of violation that I write about in this particular 163 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:05,450 Speaker 1: story is again just the way that they can undermine 164 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:10,970 Speaker 1: our own perceptions and our own grasp on reality, and 165 00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:13,610 Speaker 1: the way that you know, maybe our body is telling 166 00:12:13,730 --> 00:12:17,170 Speaker 1: us this is what happened and it was wrong, but 167 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:21,650 Speaker 1: our brain, for all kinds of reasons, because we don't 168 00:12:21,690 --> 00:12:26,970 Speaker 1: want to lose opportunity, because we're scared of consequence and repercussion, 169 00:12:27,290 --> 00:12:30,130 Speaker 1: is trying to talk our body into a different story. 170 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:34,450 Speaker 1: And so I think that estrangement from the bodied reality 171 00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:39,010 Speaker 1: and the intellectual reality, that feeling that maybe we've lost 172 00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:41,970 Speaker 1: trust in ourselves, I mean trust in oneself ability to 173 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:44,090 Speaker 1: sort of see a situation to say, yes, this is 174 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:46,490 Speaker 1: what happened. I believe what my body is telling me. 175 00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:51,210 Speaker 1: I think that that's a really profound loss that so 176 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:56,970 Speaker 1: many women experience. I mean, I would count myself among them, 177 00:12:57,010 --> 00:13:01,050 Speaker 1: and I know quite a few women who would stand 178 00:13:01,130 --> 00:13:08,370 Speaker 1: right alongside me same. This story was inspired by this 179 00:13:08,650 --> 00:13:12,170 Speaker 1: narrative in the media of Joe Biden and his history 180 00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:16,370 Speaker 1: of being handsy with women. How do you think the 181 00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:20,490 Speaker 1: vice president handled those allegations where you paying attention to 182 00:13:20,530 --> 00:13:24,250 Speaker 1: that story as it continued, Yeah, I mean, I think 183 00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:27,650 Speaker 1: his handling of it has been poor in my opinion. 184 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:29,970 Speaker 1: I also want to pause and say I intend to 185 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:32,250 Speaker 1: vote for him, despite the many things I could say 186 00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:33,850 Speaker 1: in response to this question. But yeah, I think his 187 00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:35,970 Speaker 1: handling of it has been poor. I'm not sure that 188 00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:39,010 Speaker 1: he really understands or has really absorbed the pain that 189 00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:41,890 Speaker 1: he's caused. When there is sort of more of a 190 00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:45,690 Speaker 1: gesture in the direction of accountability, chalking it up to 191 00:13:45,810 --> 00:13:49,850 Speaker 1: how norms have changed and times have changed, and he 192 00:13:49,930 --> 00:13:52,530 Speaker 1: understands he needs to change with those times. It's sort 193 00:13:52,570 --> 00:13:55,930 Speaker 1: of really taking himself out of the equation, like at 194 00:13:55,930 --> 00:13:57,930 Speaker 1: a different time, this would have been fine, but now 195 00:13:57,930 --> 00:13:59,970 Speaker 1: we're in this new world and it's not fine anymore, 196 00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:02,330 Speaker 1: and it's like, no, you don't get it. It was 197 00:14:02,410 --> 00:14:05,770 Speaker 1: never fine. But the differences is that you have women 198 00:14:06,210 --> 00:14:09,850 Speaker 1: coming forward and saying this was not fine then, and 199 00:14:09,970 --> 00:14:12,010 Speaker 1: is not fine now and will not be fine in 200 00:14:12,050 --> 00:14:18,850 Speaker 1: the future the end. Can you think of your ideal 201 00:14:18,970 --> 00:14:22,890 Speaker 1: way you would have wanted him to respond. I think 202 00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:27,370 Speaker 1: a step in the right direction would have been accountability 203 00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:31,090 Speaker 1: in the sense that he was wrong to have done 204 00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:33,850 Speaker 1: these things and that he was wrong to have violated 205 00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:38,130 Speaker 1: these women in these ways without sort of pinning it 206 00:14:38,210 --> 00:14:42,450 Speaker 1: on changing social norms, but to say something like it 207 00:14:42,490 --> 00:14:44,770 Speaker 1: was wrong, then it was wrong. Now this is why 208 00:14:44,770 --> 00:14:47,610 Speaker 1: it was wrong, even if it wasn't particularly sexual. This 209 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:50,370 Speaker 1: was an abuse of power. I was in a position 210 00:14:50,410 --> 00:14:53,970 Speaker 1: of power, and I abuse that power. As a starting point, 211 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:57,730 Speaker 1: I would say, a greater degree of self honesty on 212 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:00,170 Speaker 1: Biden's part, I think would have been a step in 213 00:15:00,170 --> 00:15:03,450 Speaker 1: the right direction. Early on in the story, the narrator 214 00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:07,050 Speaker 1: doesn't want to call out the vice president, like he's 215 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:10,890 Speaker 1: the vice president and she's a nobody. According to her friend, 216 00:15:11,330 --> 00:15:14,210 Speaker 1: she's on the wrong end of a power dynamic. But 217 00:15:14,330 --> 00:15:16,730 Speaker 1: at the end of the story she finds her voice 218 00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:22,130 Speaker 1: to speak out what changed her. So, in my understanding, 219 00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:27,010 Speaker 1: I think that the confrontation on the plane and why 220 00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:30,770 Speaker 1: that felt to me like an apt container for this story. 221 00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:33,330 Speaker 1: But because it comes from a headline, we sort of 222 00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:36,090 Speaker 1: have a sense of what happens next that right, she 223 00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:40,290 Speaker 1: does come forward with her allegations, I think coming into 224 00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:45,210 Speaker 1: contact with a man who's like toxic masculinity on steroids, 225 00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:49,810 Speaker 1: you know. And it's so explicit and it's so not ambiguous, 226 00:15:49,810 --> 00:15:53,730 Speaker 1: and it's so clear that someone has got to intervene 227 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:57,890 Speaker 1: and say something to this person and take a stand 228 00:15:58,010 --> 00:16:03,930 Speaker 1: for decency that it clarifies her thinking ultimately about whether 229 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:07,450 Speaker 1: to come forward or not to confront the vice president 230 00:16:07,570 --> 00:16:11,570 Speaker 1: in this way. Laura Vandenberg, thank you so much for 231 00:16:11,650 --> 00:16:14,450 Speaker 1: your story and thank you so much for coming on 232 00:16:14,490 --> 00:16:17,970 Speaker 1: the Chronicles of Now podcast. Thank you so much, Ashley. 233 00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:22,530 Speaker 1: I loved your questions. You can read my full interview 234 00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:26,850 Speaker 1: with Laura Vandenberg on our website Chronicles dot fm, where 235 00:16:26,890 --> 00:16:29,610 Speaker 1: you can also read the story you just heard and 236 00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:34,450 Speaker 1: other short fiction torn from today's headlines. Our sound designer 237 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:38,410 Speaker 1: and composer is Bart Warshaw, our producer is Curtis Fox, 238 00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:42,490 Speaker 1: and our associate producer is Emily Rosten. Tyler Cabot is 239 00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:46,210 Speaker 1: the executive producer and founder of Chronicles of Now for 240 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:51,690 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our executive producer is Leetlmlat. Special thanks to 241 00:16:51,810 --> 00:16:57,650 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, Carly Migliori, Heather Fame, and Eric Sandler for 242 00:16:57,730 --> 00:17:01,050 Speaker 1: the Chronicles of Now podcast. I'm Ashley Ford. Thank you 243 00:17:01,090 --> 00:17:12,250 Speaker 1: so much for listening.