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Speaker 1: What's not a morning person? My me? I'm Robert Evans

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Speaker 1: hosted Behind the Bastards, the show where we talk about

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Speaker 1: the worst people in history, and I introduced the show badly. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Today we have an unusual morning recording at an ungodly hour.

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Speaker 1: What is it, Sophie. I feel like I'm the first

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Speaker 1: person who's ever been awake this early, aside from my

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Speaker 1: guest today, of course, Mr Daniel ban Kirk. Hello, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me back. How are you doing, Daniel? I'm great,

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Speaker 1: my man, I'm wonderful. Daniel. Go ahead, no, no, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll just say I've I've been up for two hours,

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Speaker 1: so I feel it's very impressive. Do you do you

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Speaker 1: like mornings? I do not, But I've recently found out

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Speaker 1: that I am able to get so many more things

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Speaker 1: done the earlier I get up, which would seem to

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Speaker 1: be very simple math, but nothing that I had personally

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Speaker 1: made any efforts to experience until recently in my life.

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Speaker 1: So I would say, on average nowadays, I'm up around

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Speaker 1: before eight, maybe sometimes six thirty. But I am not

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Speaker 1: a morning person. I hate sunrises. I love sunset. Robert

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Speaker 1: would say six, that's the middle of the night. Well,

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Speaker 1: that is when I went to bed last night, they're

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Speaker 1: about maybe five. Well, I appreciate you making this effort. Then, man,

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Speaker 1: that's crazy. My sleep schedule is still funked up from

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Speaker 1: the flight. Sure, now, Daniel, we've we've established that that

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Speaker 1: you're sort of ambivalent towards mornings, leaning towards not liking them.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about brains? How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about your brain? I feel pretty good about it. H Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's held up pretty well. My memory is still

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Speaker 1: very good, and I haven't gotten to the point where

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Speaker 1: I have to have a calendar. I would say I

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Speaker 1: use it for about fifty of my stuff. I should

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Speaker 1: be using it for a lot more, but mine's held

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Speaker 1: up so far. I think well, I think most people

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Speaker 1: like their brain, except for the moments when they hate them. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that probably for the listeners of the

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Speaker 1: show is statistically have spent like about fifty of their

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Speaker 1: waking hours not liking their brain. Because this is a

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Speaker 1: show for depressed people who like to hear about terrible things. Um.

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Speaker 1: As a general rule, that's our that's our demo, isn't it, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: I hope not. And I screwed up so I mean

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Speaker 1: me too. Maybe I'm describing the author of the show

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Speaker 1: and it's it's uh, it's primary cast more than the listeners.

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Speaker 1: I hope the listeners are happy, but I'm making an

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Speaker 1: assumption here either way, you're here for them. As of

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Speaker 1: a two thousand seventeen study, but the Journal of Psychiatric Services,

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Speaker 1: more than eight million Americans suffer from severe psychological distress.

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Speaker 1: Now this is a blanket term for quote, feelings of sadness, worthlessness,

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Speaker 1: restlessness that are hazardous enough to impair physical well being.

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Speaker 1: That sounds pretty familiar to me, um, And that number

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Speaker 1: doesn't include all the Americans struggling with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, psychosis, depression,

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Speaker 1: and a whole galaxy of other brain based thing of

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Speaker 1: the jigs to deal with. And as some extent, it's

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Speaker 1: always been this way. Huge chunks of people have always

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Speaker 1: had brains that don't let them comfortably interface with mainstream society. Now,

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Speaker 1: we're not great at helping people with mental illnesses in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, but a few decades ago we were

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Speaker 1: much worse at it. And today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the man who was perhaps the very very worst

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Speaker 1: of all at it. So you know, the name Walter

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Speaker 1: Jackson Freeman. The second I do now he invented lobotomies,

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Speaker 1: and that's who we're talking about today. They're just they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll just remove it. Yep, We'll just we'll just we'll

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Speaker 1: just scramble it up a little bit. Actually, yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: you yell too much. We'll remove it. Oh you had

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Speaker 1: an unwanted pregnancy. We'll remove it, and not just the

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Speaker 1: pregnancy part. No, actually we will keep the pregnancy, but

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Speaker 1: we'll scramble that brain up. Yeah. And I've heard, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll touch on some of them, but I've

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Speaker 1: just heard horror stories of like, well, we had a

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Speaker 1: sister and then she just wouldn't stop arguing with our parents,

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Speaker 1: so she went away. She liked boys, so we stuck

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Speaker 1: a needle in a brain. Oh what a time it was. Yeah, Okay, man,

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Speaker 1: I am going to bunker down for this. Yeah. My

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Speaker 1: dog is a registered therapy dog if you need to

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Speaker 1: pat her. Okay, great, awesome? Is she registered lobotomist, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like there's a lot of money in that. No,

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Speaker 1: but we'll look into it. We'll look into it. Walter

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Speaker 1: Jackson Freeme in the second was born on November four

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His father, Walter the First, was also

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Speaker 1: a doctor, but not a very good one. He hated

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Speaker 1: the work, and he did it only grudgingly. He was

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Speaker 1: like an ear nose and throat doctor, and it was

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Speaker 1: said that his ideal world would have been one in

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Speaker 1: which people didn't have ears, noses, or throats, so he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have to work. His son took that one next level.

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Speaker 1: Then you want things just removed that you don't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with that. That's what I'm gonna do, Dad, now.

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Speaker 1: Walter Jackson the seconds h grandfather, Keen Freeman, was one

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Speaker 1: of the most celebrated physicians of his age and was

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Speaker 1: like the first doctor who did a bunch of important things.

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Speaker 1: He was a legitimate, like trailblazing medical motherfucker. So Walter

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Speaker 1: Freeman the Second was a sick child, which was not

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Speaker 1: unusual in an error where the average fist fight came

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Speaker 1: with a better pragnosis than the average surgery. He developed

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Speaker 1: in large lymph nodes when he was fourteen months old,

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Speaker 1: which his grandfather had to cut out. The surgery worked,

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Speaker 1: but it permanently paralyzed some of the muscles in Walter's

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Speaker 1: shoulder and head. Uh. Walter the second also underwent tons

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Speaker 1: selectomy and suffered from diphtheria, scarlet fever, the measles, whooping cough,

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Speaker 1: the mumps, and pink eye. I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: that God definitely one of this baby dead, but I

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Speaker 1: think the evidence speaks for itself. M Yeah, they tried. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he did his best. Young Walter's first memory was of

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Speaker 1: the head of a pickaxe breaking through the wall of

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Speaker 1: his nursery as the result of a home demolition that

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Speaker 1: got a little sloppy. Which is a pretty pretty badass

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Speaker 1: first memory. You gotta give it. Oh, yeah for sure. Also, uh,

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Speaker 1: not too far off of an analogy of what he

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Speaker 1: would later do to people's own lives, and not too

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Speaker 1: far off from a great scene in The Shining, which

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Speaker 1: starred Jack Nicholson, who was also in One Flew Over

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Speaker 1: the Cuckoo's Nest movie about a lobotomy. Oh that was

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Speaker 1: a good not We tied a lot of things together.

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Speaker 1: U now. The wonderful biography of Walter the Lobotomist notes

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Speaker 1: that he also nursed a lifelong fear of horses, but

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Speaker 1: never knew why. That doesn't come up again I just

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Speaker 1: think it's interesting people are terrified of something for no

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Speaker 1: reason and they can't let it go. Well, I'm also

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Speaker 1: afraid of horses. Okay, well that's not what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today. All right, Well you need to put that in.

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Speaker 1: You need that needs to go in the book. Are

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Speaker 1: you scared of anything on like an existential level that

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Speaker 1: that makes no sense to you? I don't. Well that's

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Speaker 1: but if you're scared of it, doesn't it make sense

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Speaker 1: to you? So not always? I don't know. I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: very afraid of prison. Okay, that makes total sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what. But what it makes sense to me? But

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Speaker 1: it is like, yeah, when I just think about not

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Speaker 1: being able to get out of somewhere that destined to

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Speaker 1: like you know, like they're like, oh, we decide. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't like it. Bothers me. That shows

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Speaker 1: sixty days in Have you watched that? No? That sounds

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Speaker 1: like a fucking nightmare. Though. It's like they embed civilians

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Speaker 1: into like a prison system. The only person that knows

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Speaker 1: they're not an actual prisoner is the warden, and then

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Speaker 1: the camera crew sets up as though they're doing a

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Speaker 1: documentary in the prison, but they used that to do,

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Speaker 1: like their confessional talking head moments. So they interview a

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Speaker 1: lot of prisoners, but none of them assumed, well, one

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Speaker 1: of us isn't actually even supposed to be here, and

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Speaker 1: their jobs to like last sixty days, and quite a

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Speaker 1: few of them end up just getting beaten up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. One was bad at his cover story

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Speaker 1: of what he was supposed to be in there for.

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Speaker 1: So once you just start lying to other prisoners, they

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Speaker 1: assume you must be a pedophile, and that's why you're like,

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Speaker 1: no fun intended kg about what you got in there for.

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Speaker 1: And that didn't end well for that guy either. Once

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Speaker 1: everybody was like, oh, you're a pedophile, he's like no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no, And then they don't care about that. That's

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Speaker 1: what they think, So you get beat up there. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there is any cash price. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to think, like you would have to have to be

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Speaker 1: I would only do it for enough money that I

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Speaker 1: would be able to buy a cabin in the woods,

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Speaker 1: Like would have to give me cabin in the woods

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Speaker 1: money in order to like do that fucking thing. But

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Speaker 1: that sounds like the worst. That's like it would have

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Speaker 1: to be nice woods and so you for like you

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Speaker 1: would do it. Five hundred is going to be the

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Speaker 1: low end of that ship. I'm talking a nice cabin.

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Speaker 1: See one time I went when I toured Alcatraz, they

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Speaker 1: let us go into the solitary confinement and they're like,

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Speaker 1: anybody want to check it out? And then I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what, lean in on your fear. So I

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Speaker 1: went in and the guys shut the door. They're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you call it. Probably a park

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Speaker 1: ranger at this point because of what Alcatraz is, and

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Speaker 1: then the tour guide whatever, and uh then he pretended

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Speaker 1: that the door was stuck and he couldn't get me out.

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Speaker 1: And I did not enjoy those few very short moments

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Speaker 1: that felt like very long hours. See I would I

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Speaker 1: would live in Alcatraz if it could just be my

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Speaker 1: house and I had a sack of rifles and an

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Speaker 1: Internet connection. Um, that would be fun. I could take

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Speaker 1: pot shots at Silicon Valley would be satisfying. I would

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Speaker 1: sign up for that podcast. Mm hm, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Robert on the Rock. It's another episode. Okay, we should

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Speaker 1: probably get back to the podcast. We were talking he

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Speaker 1: scared of horses. Now, when Walter was a small child,

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Speaker 1: his family moved to an area near Rittenhouse Square, a

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Speaker 1: once fancy but now slummy neighborhood. Uh and this is

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Speaker 1: again in Philadelphia now. Freeman would later recall it as

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Speaker 1: a rather dingy place where nursemaid's wheeled baby carriages and gossiped.

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Speaker 1: Walter's family was quite well off, and he came up

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Speaker 1: with maids and cooks and nanny's to attend to his

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Speaker 1: and his parents every whim. He was not overly adventurous

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Speaker 1: as a child, and later wrote of himself on the whole,

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Speaker 1: I think I was a sensitive, imaginative boy, docile, shut

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Speaker 1: in a bit, and full of questions. His parents nicknamed

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Speaker 1: him Little Walter Why Why, And the growing boy was

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Speaker 1: particularly intrigued by the family business medicine. He had a

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Speaker 1: good relationship with his grandfather, but almost no real friends.

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Speaker 1: The only boy he played with regularly was his younger

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Speaker 1: cousin Morris. The book The Lobotomist describes their friendship as

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Speaker 1: basically identical to a Calvin and hobb strip. Walter and

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Speaker 1: Morris nursed a mutual contempt for girls and made grand

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Speaker 1: plans for the Society for the Prevention of Useless Girls

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Speaker 1: spugs for short. Disdaining the company of other children, they

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Speaker 1: set up another exclusive secret society, just two members strong,

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Speaker 1: which they called the wal Risk Club. Yeah, that's like

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Speaker 1: the fucking Calvin and Hobbs strip. Yeah, and they got

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Speaker 1: a Transmorguar fire. Wasn't that one of the things through times? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So did I. It's kind of a bummer if you

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Speaker 1: imagine this is what happened to Calvin when he grew up.

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. Don't do that. Don't do That'll

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Speaker 1: be more Hobbs. I could see Hobbs getting into this

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Speaker 1: line of work, but definitely not scrambling brains now. Walter

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Speaker 1: was a good student. He excelled in Latin and Greek,

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Speaker 1: and he won prizes for his scholastics. He was never

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Speaker 1: any good at sports, nor did he grow any more

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Speaker 1: adept with the opposite sex. As he blossomed into a teenager,

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Speaker 1: he found girls bothersome and later wrote, I think I

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Speaker 1: actively disliked girls until I went to college. This is

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Speaker 1: all going to make so much sense later, This is

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Speaker 1: all going to make so much sense immediately. Um. Walter

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Speaker 1: Freeman was the oldest of six siblings, all but two

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Speaker 1: of whom were boys. He did not get along well

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Speaker 1: with him, nor did he particularly care for his parents.

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Speaker 1: Walter would later note repeatedly that he never loved his mother.

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Speaker 1: He was only a little closer to his father, who

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Speaker 1: took him and his brothers on regular hiking, fishing, and

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Speaker 1: camping trips. The elder Walter hated his medical practice and

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Speaker 1: considered the outdoors his only refuge. He was a weird dude. Once,

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Speaker 1: when Walter the Second was caught skipping school, his father

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Speaker 1: punished him by whipping himself in front of the truant officer. Wait, WHOA, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the dad whipped himself or he had Walter the Second, No,

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Speaker 1: he whipped the dad whipped himself in front of the

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Speaker 1: truant officer to myself by skipping school. Yeah, and he

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Speaker 1: did it in front of the cop. WHOA, Like that's

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Speaker 1: that's so fucked up. It takes like you really have

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Speaker 1: to process that ship because the layers fucking up the

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Speaker 1: kid's head, you know that. Like I'm a truant officer.

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Speaker 1: Imagine that guy. He's like, Hey, well buddy, I just

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Speaker 1: want kids to go to school. Why are we doing this?

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Speaker 1: All you gotta do is sign the sheet man. All

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Speaker 1: you gotta do is sign the sheet that I told

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Speaker 1: you he wasn't at school put me down. Why did

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Speaker 1: you bring a whip to this meeting? You? You don't

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Speaker 1: need to do this. No one's asking you to do this, sir.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to know. I'm also gonna have to

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Speaker 1: write you up for right for whipping yourself because I

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Speaker 1: have to document that I witnessed this. He missed a

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Speaker 1: day of school. This isn't really a whipping situation. I

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Speaker 1: wondered what you meant when you were like, cool, I'll

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Speaker 1: bring my whip. H Yeah, I have trouble getting my

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Speaker 1: head around. What kind of man does that? Oh? I know?

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Speaker 1: And then I'm sure the truan officer was like I

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Speaker 1: wanted the kid to leave, and then just like in

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Speaker 1: Will Farrell and he's bonding down, the dad was like,

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Speaker 1: let the boy watch. I feel that's horrific. That's a

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Speaker 1: mind fuck. Yeah, that's a galaxy level mind fuck. Oh boy.

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Speaker 1: I bet that true an officer felt bad for that.

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Speaker 1: I bet in the future he was like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: you need to stop skipping school, but we're not going

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Speaker 1: to tell your dad any officer. Let everyone's skip. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was like, I'm not going through that again. I

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Speaker 1: am not doing that again. So uh as is probably

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Speaker 1: not a surprise hearing that Walter's father was no less

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Speaker 1: awkward when it came to talking to his young adults

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Speaker 1: song about sex. Years later, Walter recalled, I had been

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Speaker 1: showing interest in the external anatomy of my young girl

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Speaker 1: cousins with the aid of his ancient textbooks on anatomy

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Speaker 1: and gynecology illustrated with woodcuts. He dilated upon internal anatomy, reproduction,

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Speaker 1: and especially venereal disease, threatening to have me followed or

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Speaker 1: even tempted by operatives who would report to him. I

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Speaker 1: was thoroughly uncomfortable, but remained a virgin. He never alluded

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Speaker 1: to it again. So if you're a young parent out

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Speaker 1: there looking to stop your kid from fucking too early,

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Speaker 1: this is one way to keep them a virgin for

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Speaker 1: a very long time. Yeah, or watch a racer head

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Speaker 1: but yeah, or watch your racer head. Yeah. But okay,

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Speaker 1: So he he got way into his He said, straight up,

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Speaker 1: I was really into my female cousins anatomy. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he well, you know, you know that's that's fucked up.

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Speaker 1: I think in an earlier age in which boys and

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Speaker 1: girls did not socialize. Like you run into stories like

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Speaker 1: that a lot in the early nineteen hundreds just because

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Speaker 1: like you weren't hanging out with any other girls, So

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Speaker 1: like that's when people would have that. Really it's it's

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Speaker 1: messed up and a symptom of some unhealthy things in

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Speaker 1: the culture. But I'm not gonna say that that right,

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Speaker 1: there is evidence that Walter was weird from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they were the only girls he spent any time around.

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Speaker 1: And I guess so when you stay at yeah anime,

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Speaker 1: to me, it's like he makes me feel like I

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Speaker 1: guess I in tone that he's more preoccupied, Like it's

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Speaker 1: okay to wonder what's under their clothes, but don't start

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Speaker 1: wondering what's under their skin. I think that was just

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Speaker 1: sort of, um a euphemism they used because again, nobody

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Speaker 1: had good vocabulary to talk about like bodies back then,

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Speaker 1: because everyone was fucked up, and you know, it was

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Speaker 1: an even less healthy time. There was no feveral summer

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Speaker 1: or Midwestern boy autumn at which I'm currently a part of.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's yeah. Midwestern boy autumn is good. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Southeastern boy late summer slash early fall, which really doesn't

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Speaker 1: get going until November. Um, get a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: I like slutty people, April showers. That's my favorite time

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Speaker 1: of year. Slutty people, April showers. Um, there has to

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Speaker 1: be a porn star named April Showers, right of course.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, there's like they're okay, I hope, So

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Speaker 1: we're putting in the universe. If there isn't, I also

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Speaker 1: called DIBs. If any of us get into porn, I

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Speaker 1: mean we're that's gonna be the sequel podcast to this one.

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans makes a porno. Um, it is not going

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Speaker 1: to be popular. Uh. Back to Walter freemanow So, Walter

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Speaker 1: graduated from high school when he was just sixteen years old. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He immediately started attending classes at Yale UM. He was

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Speaker 1: academically excellent, but completely miserable. He was too young an

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Speaker 1: immature to get up to any kind of animal house

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Speaker 1: type bonding shenanigans with his fellow young men, and his

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Speaker 1: utter disdain for women made most kinds of socialization impossible.

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Speaker 1: It turns out it's not great to be in college

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Speaker 1: at age sixteen. Not not the best time to do that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He briefly worked for the Yale Daily News. But was

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Speaker 1: let go after he spilled a bunch of alphabetized subscriber

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Speaker 1: cards in front of his editor. He joined the swim

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Speaker 1: team at one point, but refused to practice when anyone

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Speaker 1: was around. He want people to see him with his

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Speaker 1: shirt off. Um, so he's You get a feel for

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Speaker 1: the kind of young man Walter Freeman was not a

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Speaker 1: comfortable one. Um now, and in fairness, knowing about his dad,

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Speaker 1: how could he possibly have been right? His initial degree

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Speaker 1: program was engineering, but this track was disrupted at the

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Speaker 1: end of his junior year when he ate a bad

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Speaker 1: batch of raw clams and caught typhoid fever. He spent

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Speaker 1: months laid up with this, in an assortment of other

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Speaker 1: ailments that took up the entirety of his first semester

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Speaker 1: senior year at Yale. The long months he spent at

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Speaker 1: hospitals and sick beds helped Walter realize that he wanted

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Speaker 1: something different out of life, a career in medicine. M now.

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Speaker 1: He'd initially not wanted to go down that road, do

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Speaker 1: largely to the fact that his father had told him

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Speaker 1: it was a terrible life. Don't be a fucking doctor.

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Speaker 1: As he whips himself. Uh, this isn't about you. I'm

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Speaker 1: whipping myself because someone else left a muffin out on

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Speaker 1: the counter. This is they're whipping. But I needed to

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Speaker 1: talk to you. Also, he's third generations to his dad.

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Speaker 1: Probably was forced into it by his dad. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so he maybe this was his one thing where he

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Speaker 1: was trying to be like, you don't do what you

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Speaker 1: don't have. You don't have to do this, and it

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Speaker 1: didn't matter. I feel like he's saying, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to do this while everybody looks at him whipping himself

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Speaker 1: and it's like, you really don't have to do this. So, uh, Walter,

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Speaker 1: seeing his dad was a miserable, fucked up person, Walter

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Speaker 1: instead looked towards his grandfather as a role model and

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Speaker 1: enrolled in summer classes at the University of Chicago to

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Speaker 1: catch up on medical school before or to catch up

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Speaker 1: on like medicine and science related classes before starting medical

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Speaker 1: school the next year. He excelled in this as well,

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Speaker 1: and attempted to rebuild his health by walking thirty minutes

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Speaker 1: to and from campus every day carrying a heavy box

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Speaker 1: of bones. I don't know where you could just get

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Speaker 1: bones back then. Yeah, he just decided he needed. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to like get healthy, and a way to do

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Speaker 1: it was to carry around a lot of bones. And

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Speaker 1: because he's a person, a rock isn't good enough. Yeah,

359
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: there were more bones than rocks back then. There were

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Speaker 1: just people dying left and right. So he stopped H.

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Speaker 1: Holmes's place and picked up what years this that doesn't

362
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Speaker 1: check out? Actually I think it might check out this

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Speaker 1: late late eighteen nineties. I don't remember exactly when H.

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Speaker 1: Jones was. No, he would have been. He would have been.

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Speaker 1: He was born in nive so, but there would have

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Speaker 1: been there would have been a lot of bones laying

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Speaker 1: around in the early nine hundred bone heavy period. World

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Speaker 1: War One was on a shiploads of bones. Now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he excelled in his classes, and he was getting better,

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Speaker 1: you know, healthier thanks to his bone box. But in

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Speaker 1: spite of all this, he he got sick again very

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Speaker 1: quickly and was soon bedridden. He later recalled I wrote

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Speaker 1: home saying, I guess God didn't want me to study medicine.

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Speaker 1: In reply, I received a stern admonition not to think

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Speaker 1: that way, much less to mention it. Wait, Robert, he

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Speaker 1: got sick again, Yeah, he kept he was very sick.

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Speaker 1: He was a sick, sick young man. Oh man, this

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Speaker 1: is You're right. Mother Nature was trying to kill him.

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Speaker 1: God was definitely trying to stop him from being He's

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Speaker 1: a fighter. He's a fighter. He is a persistent son

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Speaker 1: of a bit. He shouldn't have been let it go.

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Speaker 1: He should not have been somebody should have walked in

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Speaker 1: whipping themselves and been like, this is so that you

384
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Speaker 1: can let it go, Just go. Yeah, that's I think

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Speaker 1: that we have to land on the conclusion that if

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Speaker 1: only there'd been more whipping in his childhood, he would

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Speaker 1: have turned out better. Can I ask you a foreshadowing

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00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: question that I don't expect you to answer yet because

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Speaker 1: I don't know that we should even if you can.

390
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: But much like we all wonder, like what purpose does

391
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: mosquitoes provide? Like what uh, what did they give us

392
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: in the long run or whatever other than just bad stuff,

393
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Speaker 1: I would love to know by the end of this episode,

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Speaker 1: I already hate him. If at some point you're gonna

395
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Speaker 1: be like, well, actually, because of the lobotomy, we now

396
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 1: have this positive thing in our world, and I'm anxious

397
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: to see if if that comes about at all. Yes,

398
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,719
Speaker 1: he was actually this is getting ahead a little bit.

399
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Speaker 1: He doesn't want to do that to you. I'm just

400
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: that's what's already in my had I'm like, yeah, I

401
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: hope there's some benefit to this fucker. Yeah. The spoiler

402
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 1: I will give you is that it turned out he

403
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,239
Speaker 1: was right for the wrong reasons, or at least he

404
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: was right, but it led him to do the wrong things.

405
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Speaker 1: Like the little kid in a Bronx tail. I've not

406
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: seen you. Oh he covers for he covers for a

407
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: mob guy. And he asked his dad, Robert de Niro.

408
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 1: He goes, I did I did a good thing, right, Dad?

409
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 1: And he goes, yeah, you did. You did a good

410
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: thing for a bad man, Like it was the right thing,

411
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 1: but you did it for the wrong person. Yeah. Well

412
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: it's a little different than that. We'll get well, we'll

413
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: get there. So after a second ton selectomy, Freeman's health improved,

414
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: and soon he was off to medical school. During the

415
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: first Hand bones in hand. During the First World War,

416
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: he was drafted into the Army Medical Corps and he

417
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Speaker 1: became a sergeant. He continued his education. He was demoted

418
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: once for threatening his company commander with a shoe, but

419
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: otherwise had a solid service we're not. We can't skip

420
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: this with a shoe just a little shoe fight. You've

421
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 1: had a couple. I've never had a shoe fight. We

422
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: we all have the odds shoe fight. I can Tina Turner,

423
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 1: that's the most popular shoe fight of all time. Yeah,

424
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: it was just like an argument and he like picked

425
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: up his shoe and yelled at somebody and didn't realize

426
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: that they were his commanding officer. Um it's less interesting

427
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: than you'd think. It's funnier when you just summarize it

428
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: that way. Um. Now. Walter graduated as a doctor in

429
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, the second in his class. By this point,

430
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: he had become so enamored with medicine that every other

431
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: aspect of his past had followed by the wayside. Medicine,

432
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: he wrote, held my interest to the point where I

433
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: excluded many other things. In fact, I was barely aware

434
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: of my family. Do not recall what they were doing

435
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: or where they were during this period. So Walter has

436
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: fallen fully into medicine. And speaking of falling fully into something,

437
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: Daniel van Kirk, it's time for us and our audience

438
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: to fall fully into the products and services that support

439
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 1: this program. Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's

440
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: let's whip ourselves in front of the audience to convince

441
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: them to buy these these products that support the show.

442
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: Imagine me wailing on myself with a cat of nine tales.

443
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: It makes me sad. But you, I didn't come to school,

444
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: and so now you have to hurt yourself. And yeah,

445
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: now I have to hurt myself products. We're back. So

446
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: when we left off, Walter Freeman had fallen in love

447
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: with medicine and had forgotten what his family was even doing.

448
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: He was so enthralled with his new career, and in

449
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,959
Speaker 1: his father's case, what he was doing was dying of

450
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: liver cancer. Now, yeah, yeah, yeah, Walter could not really

451
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: have cared less about this. The only thing he did

452
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: to help his father during this period, because he was

453
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: living at home still, it was periodically shave him with

454
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: a straight razor. He refused to soften his dad's stubble

455
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: in warm water before shaving him because quote, the task

456
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: was distasteful, and I finished it as quickly as possible.

457
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: I'm sure my mother would have been more gentle, but

458
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: she considered shaving a man's job, and I was the

459
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: only one at home, so like, I'm gonna I'll shave you, dad,

460
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna like make it pleasant for you,

461
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: because I want to get done with this ship quick.

462
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: Great great kid. Now, although his dad was kind of

463
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: sucked him up, so fair, I guess you have to

464
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: whip me. I can't do it myself. I can't get

465
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: shaved without a whipping. As a medical intern, Walter was

466
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: somewhat uneven. He excelled in neurology, but proved less apt

467
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: at handling what he called scut work, like transporting urine

468
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: samples for analysis. Sometimes he would pour samples down the

469
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: drain just to be rid of them. He was fascinated

470
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: by neurosurgery, but too bored of the details of it

471
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: to actually learn to perform surgery. He was fascinated by illness,

472
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: but almost bored by the actual human beings he had

473
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: to treat. He was, in short, a very strange dude,

474
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: as this passage from the lobotomist makes clear. Soon another

475
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: patient commanded Freeman's curiosity. A young man who arrived at

476
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: the hospital with his penis and dire shape and flamed

477
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: and dark. The organ was encircled by a ring that

478
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: the patient's girlfriend had thrust over it but was unable

479
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: to remove Freeman. Yet, we're talking like nineteen twenties cock rings.

480
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: I think we're talking a normal ring that she put

481
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: on his cock and it became a problem when he

482
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: got hard. No. Yeah, that's why you use the like

483
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: the bendy rubber ones, not like a normal metal ring.

484
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: That's one of our sponsors today. Yes, Josiah and Sons

485
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: old fashioned Amish cock rings, the only cock rings that

486
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: are made entirely out of wood. If you want the

487
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: most pain a cock ring can put you in, you

488
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: want a Josiah and Son's cock ring that was too perfect.

489
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Now in Redwood, So a guy walks in and says, hey,

490
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: I gotta, I gotta. And you know that that conversation

491
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: was awkward because much like you just talked about, no

492
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: one was using good like healthy like jargon for each

493
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: other to talk about themselves. Or they don't think anyone

494
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: uses the word penis in that entire conversation. He's like,

495
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: I've gone problematic in my nethers. Ye. So uh. Freeman

496
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: ended the patient's agony by filing through the ring and

497
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: twisting it free with forceps. The boy asked for the ring,

498
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: but I told him it was a specimen and that

499
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: I would have to keep it. Freeman wrote, I had

500
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: the ring, repad and the Freeman Man crest and de

501
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: graved on it for years. Afterward, Freeman wore the specimen

502
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: on a goat shade. If we were in an episode

503
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: of Mine Hunters, this is what we would call a trophy. Yeah,

504
00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: that's fucked up. What a conversation starter, though. I like

505
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: that you don that crest aftermarket because this used to

506
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: be this used to be a broken ring. How so well,

507
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: a gentleman came in had it in his nethers. I

508
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: took it off and now I probably present it wo man. Wow, yeah,

509
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: real quick, think about this. There's a chance, unless he

510
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: was buried with it, that ring is out there somewhere. God,

511
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: I hope. So if you have Walter Freeman's cockering necklace,

512
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: I would pay good money to have it. I don't

513
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: know what I would do with it. We'll find a

514
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: use for it. If you could start collecting things from

515
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: your episodes and you'd be like the Collector and Guardians

516
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: of the Galaxy in the Marvel universe. But you're like, oh,

517
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: that's actually from the episode where we talk about, because

518
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: that ring is gotta be I bet somebody doesn't even

519
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: know what they have. Or if I get a TV

520
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: show that would be that would be the premises me

521
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: hunting down artifacts of terrible people will start with like

522
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: an original copy of one of Hitler's favorite, uh fantasy novels.

523
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, Saddam Hussein's typewriter, you know, all

524
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: the all the all the great, all the hits, Ron

525
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: Hubbard's I don't know, uh boat yeah, or like that

526
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: first episode I did where we talked about the Nazis

527
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, like even an old like Lemley's like movie

528
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: cars o hell yeah yeah, yeah, the city of Pittsburgh. Man,

529
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things to collect. Okay, sorry I

530
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: have derailed this, but that that I mean, how could

531
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: I not? We just went filing tale. Yeah. So. Walter

532
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: spent a year in Europe, doing medical residences in France

533
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: and performing medical testing on animals. The highlight of his

534
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: trip was watching the autopsy of an elephant. He was

535
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: fascinated by the four hour task of opening the creature's

536
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: skull to remove its brain. Walter's first thought was that

537
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: a jackhammer would have been the ideal tool. To remove it.

538
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: But this thought, pro says, spawned a lifelong fascination in

539
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: finding unique ways to break into skulls and access brains.

540
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: He is into that do what you love, the money

541
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: will follow. His first major job came courtesy of his grandfather, Keene,

542
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: who used his connections to get his grandson a gig

543
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: as the senior medical officer in charge of St. Elizabeth's

544
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: Hospital in Washington, d C. This was a psychiatric hospital,

545
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: and working there gave Walter a direct look into the

546
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: horrific ways nineteen twenties America treated the mentally unwell. St.

547
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was essentially a giant box filled warehouse from the

548
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: end of Raiders of the Lost Arc, but filled with

549
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: sick people instead of antiquities. There were very few real

550
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: treatments for psychiatric disorders, so patients were just locked in

551
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: there together until they either died or lied well enough

552
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: to claim that they had had a spontaneous remission. That

553
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: was that was healthcare back then. Oh yeah, your head sick, huh, Well,

554
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna put you in a miserable box until you

555
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: decide you're healthy. Yeah yeah. Walter or Freeman found this

556
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: new charge horrifying. He was sickened by the forty inmates

557
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: of his asylum, and he wrote the slouching figures, the

558
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: vacant stare or averted eyes, the shabby clothing and footwear,

559
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: the general and tidiness all aroused rejection rather than sympathy

560
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: or interest. So he's horrified and not sympathetic with these people. Yeah,

561
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel bad for him at all. Yeah, yeah,

562
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: they're they're just he's just disgusted by them. Now, since

563
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: the inmates of this asylum were too pitiful to deserve

564
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: Walter's sympathy, he instead focused on learning about the brain

565
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: of the psychotic, as he called it, which is again

566
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: was like the general it's a specific term now, it

567
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: was just the general term for anyone that was like

568
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: not fitting into society back you couldn't conform. Yeah, Walter's

569
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: goal was less to alleviate discomfort and more to help

570
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: these people return to life as productive members of capitalist society. Quote.

571
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: I looked around me at the hundreds of patients and thought,

572
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: what a waste of manpower and woman power. So again,

573
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: not particularly sympathetic to their suffering. He is very gender inclusive. Yeah. Yeah.

574
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: Towards this end, he experimented with differing oxygen levels and

575
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: their impacts on the brain of manic people. He also

576
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: pioneered a new easier method of collecting spinal taps from

577
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: the lobotomist. Instead of recruiting help to secure patients in

578
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: a deep bend while sitting then inserting the needle of

579
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: a collection syringe between the vertebra, Freeman employed what he

580
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: was fond of calling the jiffy spinal tap. Without assistance

581
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: from other staff members. Freeman directed patients to sit backward

582
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: on a chair and deeply bend their neck over the

583
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: chair back, carefully navigating the opening at the base of

584
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: this goal. He then pushed a needle into a reservoir

585
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: of spinal fluid located just inside but perilously close to

586
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: the base of the brain. Even a slight error in

587
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: the insertion of the needle could permanently injure the patient.

588
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: So Walt, he's just showing off, and this this risk

589
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: was worth because it allowed him to work alone without

590
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: close collaboration with colleagues. Um now a mature adult, Walter

591
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: was still very much a loner, and he preferred his

592
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: own professional company to acting as part of a team,

593
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: even when that went meant a greater risk to the aation.

594
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: Walter opened a private practice while working at St. Elizabeth's

595
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: to further his research, and also took a job as

596
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: a professor of neurology at George Washington University. By the

597
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: early nineteen thirties, he had a well earned reputation as

598
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: a psychiatric pioneer. Now, Walter was largely responsible for the

599
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: introduction of several exciting new treatments, insulin shock therapy, which

600
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: plunged patients into insulin shock to try and correct schizophrenic symptoms.

601
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: He also experimented with metrosol shock therapy and electro convulsive therapy.

602
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: The essential goal of all these treatments was the same

603
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: to slap sick people out of their issues by horribly

604
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: traumatizing their system. So he's that kind of doctor. He's like, Ah,

605
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: these people have a problem. We just need to funk

606
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: them up enough that they they get their ship together.

607
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: The only time I know of something like this working

608
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: is in heat stroke, because you instantly need to be

609
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: put into an ice tub right away, Like we need

610
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: to shock you out of the thing you're in. But

611
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: the idea that we could take anything psychologically and essentially

612
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: smack you out of it through one form of mild

613
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: torture or another is insane. Who did this ever work

614
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: enough that somebody was like, I think this is the

615
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: way to do it, you know. Um, So what There's

616
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: a couple of things going on here. One of them

617
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: is that electro convulsive therapy is still at a very

618
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: small scale used today. There are certain people with certain

619
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: fairly rare problems that it can help. So I'm sure

620
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: there were some people who had very severe psychiatric distress

621
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: who were helped by the electro convulsive therapy a tiny

622
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: fraction of the total, and I'm sure there was a

623
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: larger number who were while they had issues, were also

624
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 1: able to realize like, oh my god, they're gonna keep

625
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: torturing me if I don't pretend to be better, And

626
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: so they would just like, okay, i'll be better. I won't.

627
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: I won't kind of I won't let you know I'm suffering.

628
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: Isn't that kind of like the mouse in the maze?

629
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: Oh I just got to stop this and so that

630
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen to me anymore. Yeah, but you're learning

631
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: through like not you're learning or just like have love

632
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: and dog type ship of like this just happens to

633
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: you every time. So you just learned to like stop

634
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: being loud, but nothing's changed. Yeah, that's a kind of

635
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: I think what goes on with a lot of these people.

636
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: It's a mix of the tiny amount who like legitimately

637
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: do benefit from it because electric convulsive therapy can be

638
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: helpful and a larger number who were like, oh, this

639
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: is awful, I'll just stop complaining. Yes, I don't want

640
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: to go through this anymore. Um now. It was nineteen

641
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: thirty five when Walter Freeman first ran into the treatment

642
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: that would come to define his practice and the great

643
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: bulk of his adult life. That year, he attended a

644
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: presentation in London by a researcher who had experimented with

645
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: damaging the frontal lobes of chimpanzees just to see what happened.

646
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: The results were more or less what you'd expect. These

647
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: brain damage chimps became quiet, listless, inactive. Freeman and a

648
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: Portuguese neurologists us money is, we're both fascinated by this.

649
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: Mona is right away headed back home to Portugal to

650
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: experiment with severing the frontal lobes of human beings. The

651
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: thinking was that if this procedure could calm chimpanzees down,

652
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: it might have the same effect on people suffering from

653
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: a mental illness that led to radical swings in personality

654
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: and mood, stuff like a bipolar disorders exactly, seizure disorders

655
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: and stuff, a whole bunch of different things, because again,

656
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that we now recognize our separate

657
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: things were all lumped together back in that day. Um

658
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: So if you were like a schizophrenic, or if you

659
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: had a seizure disorder, or if you were bipolar, they

660
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: might just say, lump all those people together is the

661
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: same thing. You know. They weren't great at this yet. Uh.

662
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty six, Antonio Monez had perfected his treatment,

663
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: the leucotomy, which involved drilling two small holes in the

664
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: side of the head in order to sever connective tissue

665
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: that attached the frontal lobe to the rest of the brain. Now,

666
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: at the time, there were two main theories of psychiatric illness.

667
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: The first, which was pushed by guys like Freud, was

668
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: that psychiatric ailments were all basically the result of buried memories,

669
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: misplaced desires, past traumas, things that you could sit down

670
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: and work out with a psychotherapist over a small mountain

671
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: of cocaine and uncomfortable couch. The other theory was that

672
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: these illnesses were caused by emotional signals from the brain

673
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: that were so strong they simply overwhelmed a person. Now,

674
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: obviously neither theory is entirely right um, but the theory

675
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: that guys like Freeman would adopt, which was that you

676
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: know these it was a bunch of signals from the brain,

677
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: was closer to right than Freud's theory because it explains

678
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: stuff like you know, um uh, seizure disorders or like

679
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: schizophrenia and stuff which are not You can't talk therapy

680
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: someone with schizophrenia out of having issues like it's a

681
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: problem with like signals their brain is sending and they

682
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: need some sorts of medication. I think sometimes surgery helps.

683
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: But like so, Freeman is on the right track. What

684
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: he and other scientists who like adopt this school of

685
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: thought are realizing is that you can't talk your way

686
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: through all of your mental problems, which is correct. There

687
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: are mental problems that have to be dealt with on

688
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: like more of a chemical physical level. So that's what

689
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: I say when I say he was he was right

690
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: about sort of what the issues were. Um but then

691
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: we get into what he decided the treatment should be,

692
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: which was not correct. But he was on the right

693
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: track when he like figured out like what was going

694
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: on with people where he was closer to write than

695
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: a lot of mainstream doctors. So Maniza's leucotomy seemed to

696
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: provide relief to a number of patients. And I should

697
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: note that there are variants of this procedure we used today.

698
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: Patients suffering from some types of seizure disorders sometimes have

699
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: parts of the brain disconnected from one another to stop

700
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: or reduce the frequency of said seizures. We still do

701
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: use brain surgery. That's kind of an evolution of the

702
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: leucotomy to treat people today, and it can be very

703
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: helpful to again a very small number of people who

704
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: suffer with these disorders. Um. So Moniz was experimenting with

705
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: real medicine and he was very responsible with the implications

706
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: of his treatment. When he received the Nobel Prize for

707
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: it in nineteen forty nine, he insisted the leucotomy was

708
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: only to be used as a treatment of last resort

709
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: when absolutely nothing else could provide a patient with relief.

710
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: So Monez not gonna say is a bad guy. He's

711
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: one of the early experimenters with what would come to

712
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: be known as a lobotomy. But he's he's doing it

713
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: because number one, he recognizes it does help in some cases,

714
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: and he's he's very clear about like, we only do

715
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: this if there's no other chance of them living a

716
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: normal life, or if we want to funk with a chimpanzee.

717
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: That was the other guy. Oh that's right, sorry, yeah, yeah,

718
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Moniz just watched that and was like, oh, ship,

719
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: this might best. Yeah. Now. Walter Freeman paid attention to

720
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: the work of Antonio Moniz, but he was not convinced

721
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: that the leucotomy ought to be a last resort for

722
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: suffering people. As the manager of an asylum, he was

723
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: deeply frustrated by how much time and manpower it took

724
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: to subdue patients dealing with psychotic episodes, schizophrenic breaks, manic faces, etcetera.

725
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: The idea that all this could be calmed by the

726
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: just chopping up their brains was deeply appealing to him.

727
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: So start, yeah, yeah, that'll that'll make it. Wait my job.

728
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: So I'm sick of what if I just break them?

729
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: Line them up? So Freeman developed a modification of moniz

730
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: is pers Sieger and renamed it a lobotomy in much

731
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: the same way as Oreos modified the hydrox cookie, and

732
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: like Oreos, Freeman's procedure was destined to capture the vast

733
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: majority of the market share for such a product. Like Oreos,

734
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: you gotta get to that middle good stuff and get

735
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: that out. You got you gotta get that out now.

736
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote now from Jack L. High, who wrote

737
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: The Lobotomist and also wrote this piece for The Washington Post.

738
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: To him, the intoxicating thing about psycho surgery mon iss

739
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: coin term for psychiatric surgery, was its potential to sever

740
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: the links between the over excited emotions of an unhealthy

741
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: thalamus and the behavioral functions of the prefrontal lobes of

742
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: the brain. If it worked, the destruction of these nerve

743
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: fibers would prevent the thalamus from poisoning patients. Thinking he

744
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: absorbed the details of Moniss work, and with neurosurgeon Watts

745
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: became figuring out how to adapt the Portuguese physicians techniques.

746
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: Freeman and Watts used brains from the hospital Morgue to

747
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: practice the coring of sections of the prefrontal lobes with

748
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: a lukatom, which is the device they'd used for that.

749
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: But the summer of nineteen thirty six, they were ready

750
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: for a live patient, a Miss Hammett from Topeka, Kansas. Now.

751
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: Ms Hammett was sixty three years old. She suffered from depression.

752
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: She had frequent hysterical fits and difficulties sleeping. Freeman talked

753
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: with her and concluded that a lobotomy was the only

754
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: way for her to avoid spending the rest of her

755
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: life in a mental hospital. Much of the impetus behind

756
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: this seems to have been her husband, who was tired

757
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: of dealing with a wife who needed help herself rather

758
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: than just preparing meals for him and staying quiet. Freeman

759
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: and his new partner Watts, schedule Miss Hammett for an

760
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: appointment on September nineteen thirty six. Now, the first lobotomy

761
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: did not start off well. Miss Hammett tried to back

762
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: out when she learned the procedure would require her to

763
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: shave her head. Many of her mental health issues focused

764
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: around an obsession with her thinning hair, so this was

765
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: obviously a matter of grave concern for her. WHOA, yeah,

766
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: we're doing the one thing she's already upset about. Oh yeah, yeah.

767
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: So Freeman and Watts assured her they would only have

768
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: to shave off a few small sections of her scalp.

769
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: This was a lie, obviously. Once they forcibly anesthetized her,

770
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: they shaved her bald. Freeman recorded that her last words

771
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: before going underwear, Who is that man? What does he

772
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: want here? What is he going to do to me?

773
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: Tell him to go away? Oh? I don't want to

774
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: see him. Yeah, Well that's how crazy people talk. So

775
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: still I don't think that. Oh yeah, that's him. Yeah,

776
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: I think she's very reasonable. That's my point. Once, once

777
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: you've been like labeled, we're going to do this to you,

778
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: no matter what you say, They're like, well you would

779
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: talk like that, You're a crazy You need her a

780
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: looney loony. With Freeman watching, Wat's drilled six holes a

781
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: top miss Hammett's skull and inserted a luca toom, a

782
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: device that essentially hold the brain into each hole, both

783
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: doctors worked together on leisuroning the brain, with Watts the

784
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: actual surgeon, managing the whole affair, and as odd as

785
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: it sounds, the lobotomy seems to have helped Miss Hammett,

786
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: At least she and her husband both reported that it helped.

787
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: Freeman wrote in his autobiography, she survived five years, according

788
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: to Mr Hammett, the happiest years of her life. As

789
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: she expressed it, she could go to the theater and

790
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: really enjoy the play without thinking of what her back

791
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: hair looked like or whether her shoes pinched. And it

792
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: is entirely possible that this is an accurate representation of

793
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: how Miss Hammett felt. Many of Dr Freeman's lobotomy patients

794
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: experienced relief from some of their symptoms. That said, even

795
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: the positive experiences with lobotomies are clouded by deeply disturbing

796
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: questions of consent and structures of oppression. They're saying speaking

797
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: of sorry, sorry, I just really they're saying it actually worked. Yeah,

798
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: she she experienced relief that was not wildly uncommon with

799
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: his patients. Yeah, but if she's worried about her shoes

800
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: and stuff, it's kind of sounds to me like, and

801
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: I know we're near a professional and so please take

802
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: this with the grain ofshal anyone who hears my voice

803
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: that maybe she suffers some some sort of like O. C.

804
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: D she was like worried about and so the lobotomy

805
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: just made her not really care about anything. So they're like, oh,

806
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: things are better. Well, yep, no, you just don't care

807
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: about anything. That's not I guess, I guess you're not

808
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: doing the thing you did. But I don't know if

809
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: that falls into category better. But but for them at

810
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 1: the time, they were saying that for them at the time,

811
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: this woman was complaining. Now the woman's not complaining. We

812
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: fixed her. It's a different Yeah, we're going to get

813
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: into that a little bit more and how problematic all

814
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: this was. But again, it's important you know that at

815
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: the time this looked to again the men who were

816
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: the only ones whose opinions mattered in this situation, as

817
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: if they were making people like Mrs Hammett better. Um,

818
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: now you know what will make you better, Daniel van Kirk.

819
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: The products and services that advertise on this show. Nice. Yeah,

820
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: can we go to them? Can I learn about him?

821
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: We can? Here's uh capitalism lobotomy. We're back now. Uh,

822
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: As I said before we rolled out the positive experiences

823
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: with lobotomies that you read about when you kind of

824
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: read about these early operations. Um, we're all clouded by

825
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: very disturbing questions of consent and also structures of oppression

826
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: that existed back then and still exist today. During my research,

827
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: I came across a story Corps interview with one of

828
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: Walter Freeman's patients, Patricia Mowen and her husband Patricia with

829
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: Her husband's name is Glynn. By the way, Patricia was

830
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: lobotomized in nineteen sixty two, and I'm going to read

831
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: the transcript of this husband and wife talking about her procedure.

832
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: And again, this is considered to be like one of

833
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: the stories of like a success. But I'll read this

834
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 1: to you and you tell me if you think there's

835
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: something fucked up going on here, but I will. Glenn Mowen,

836
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: my name is Glynn Owen. I am seventy nine years old.

837
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: I signed the release for Pat's lobotomy. Patricia Mowen, we

838
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: have not talked about it since I had the lobotomy.

839
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: I don't think ever. My husband is not a great communicator, Glenn.

840
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: I don't talk to her any more than I have

841
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: to Patricia. Glenn, be nice. Both laugh. We've been married

842
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: about thirteen years and it just started. I cried all

843
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: the time. I was just mentally no good, Glenn. One

844
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: night I came home and she said, well, I've done

845
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: it now. She'd taken a whole bottle of some kind

846
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: of pills. Patricia. That's when the doctor decided it was time. Glenn.

847
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,959
Speaker 1: He told me this was the last resort. I didn't

848
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: know what else to do, Patricia. Dr Freeman said, you

849
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: can come out of this vegetable, or you can come

850
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: out dead. And I guess I was miserable enough that

851
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: I didn't care. Glenn. I was kind of worried because

852
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: of the operation of severing a nerve in the brain.

853
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: It sounded kind of wild to me, Patricia. He was

854
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: afraid he was going to lose his cook, Glenn, and

855
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't like to cook. Patricia. I remember nothing after

856
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: I saw Dr Freeman. I don't remember going to the hospital,

857
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: or having it done, or how long I was there.

858
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: That's all gone, Glenn. We were coming back from San

859
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: Jose after the operation, and pat informed me that she

860
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: couldn't wait to get home because she wanted to file

861
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: for divorce. Patricia. I don't remember that at all. I

862
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: don't think I said it, Glenn. I think I just

863
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: went on driving and ignored the situation. Began to wonder myself,

864
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: how much good did this operation accomplish? Really, I can

865
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: see no changes in most areas, except she is much

866
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 1: easier to get along with Patricia. You didn't see any

867
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: change in the way I kept the house or the

868
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: way I Glenn. No, Patricia, I was more a free

869
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: person after I had it, just not so concerned about things.

870
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: I just went home and started living, I guess is

871
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: the best way I can say it. I was able

872
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: to get back to taking care of things and cooking

873
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: and shopping in that kind of thing. Glenn delighted it.

874
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: The way it's turned out, it's been a good life. WHOA, yeah,

875
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: that's there's a lot going on there. My favorite I

876
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: hope on Glenn's tombstone, who we know is definitely dead

877
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: by now. It says I ignored it and kept driving.

878
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: I ignored it and kept driving. That's probably how he

879
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: lived a lot of his life with her, until he

880
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: had to deal with her ass because she wouldn't do

881
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: the things she was supposed to and kept complaining about

882
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: wanting more pills. She wasn't happy cooking and shopping. So

883
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: we drilled a hole in the brain and then it

884
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: was fine. You know what, I'm also going to claim

885
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: ignorance here, my friend, I was under the assumption before

886
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 1: we started this that if you got a lobotomy, you

887
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: were just a shell of a person, that you were

888
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: a vegetable or you died. Like, uh, that happened a lot.

889
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: But but some people just kind of went into like

890
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: in a I don't know if you forks the right word,

891
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: but a like just a las a fair feeling towards

892
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: life after a lobotom Like they still were very cognitive,

893
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: they just didn't really have any argument nerves left. Yeah,

894
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: that's its separating the frontal lobe in the way that

895
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: they did kind of separates you from your concerns. In

896
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: some ways, it stopped people from feeling or thinking as much.

897
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: Very agreeable. Yeah, that was kind of the best case

898
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: scenario with some of these people. Um, but some they

899
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: did they detached too much or go too deep, and

900
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: that's when you get catatonic. Yeah, we'll get into that.

901
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it wasn't an exact science, and they

902
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: won't be always good at it. That just blew me

903
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: away to hear that exchange, because I've been sitting here

904
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: the whole time thinking. Every lobotomy ends with just a

905
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: feeling of like, no, no, you're gone. A lot of

906
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: these people went on to live productive lives. A lot

907
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: of them were rendered catatonic. It kind of depended on

908
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: how the operation when, like the thing is, brains are weird.

909
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: I've known people who have been shot through the head

910
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: with rifles, um, and we're fine. Definitely not getting a

911
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: rifle in the studio then yeah, well, I mean they

912
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: would up fine, we could just It's just it's kind

913
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: of a crapshoot with brains. It's it's wild the amount

914
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: of things that they can go through, uh and suffer

915
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: no noticeable effects. And it's wild the number of things

916
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: that can happen to them that seem minor and just

917
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: change the person forever. Like it's a fucking crap shoot

918
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: at the look at the NFL exactly now. Mrs Hammett's

919
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: lobotomy in nineteen thirty six proved to be the beginning

920
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: of a decade's long career carving into the brains of

921
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: human beings. He and Watts were one of medicine's most

922
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: dynamic duos. Following that operation, they established an office at

923
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: a home in Washington, d C and gradually refined their technique,

924
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: replacing Moniz's luca toom with an object Jack l Hi

925
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: describes as resembling a butter knife. They also switched around

926
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: the positioning of the holes from which they cut into

927
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: the brain. When patient symptoms persisted, Watson Freeman would perform

928
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: multiple lobotomies and make deeper cuts into the brain. One patient,

929
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: a lawyer suffering from alcoholism, escaped the hospital after his

930
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: operation and was found drunk in a downtown bar. One

931
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: patient showed up after his surgery and threatened to murder

932
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: the doctors two poled guns when Freeman recommended they undergo lobotomies,

933
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: so it was not always a smooth process. From early on,

934
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: Freeman viewed proper pr as critical to gaining widespread adoption

935
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: for his new technique. He and Watts started setting up

936
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: a lobotomy booth at the annual A m A Convention

937
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine, crafting displays designed to draw the

938
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: attention of journalists rather than impressing other doctors. He later wrote,

939
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: I found the technique of getting noticed in the papers.

940
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: It was to arrive a day or two ahead of

941
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: the opening of the convention and installed the exhibit in

942
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: the most graphic manner, and then be alert for prowling newsmen.

943
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: Now jackal High notes that Freeman used handheld clackers to

944
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: get the attention of reporters with loud noises. He and

945
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: Watts even lobotomized a monkey in nineteen thirty nine. This

946
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: spectacular event dominated coverage of the convention. Freeman wrote that

947
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 1: night our monkey died, but Watson I made the headlines

948
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: even though we did not get an award, and so

949
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: so begins as press. I mean, that's what he's going

950
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,479
Speaker 1: for here, that's what he's going for. Well, the monkey died,

951
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: but people seem to be interested. Now. Of the first

952
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: six twenty three surgeries Watson Freeman carried out had what

953
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: they described as good results, were fair, and were poor.

954
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: Three percent died during or immediately after the surgery, and

955
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 1: if you take Freeman's word for it, those are good results.

956
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: More than half of people had like a good result

957
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: of the operation, particularly considering these tended to be patients

958
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: who had exhausted conventional treatment options. However, Freeman never went

959
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: into detail about what he considered to be a good result,

960
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: nor did he update his results when patients relapsed which

961
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,479
Speaker 1: was extremely common, with the result of that monkey died,

962
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: so he was he was because yeah yeah now. Nurses

963
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: reported that patients of the duo often needed to relearn

964
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 1: how to eat and handle other basic tasks. They soiled themselves,

965
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: flirted bizarrely with orderlies, and would sit staring off into

966
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: the distance for hours on end. Walter Freeman considered these

967
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: positive changes. The fact that lobotomy patients were dull, quiet, uncoordinated,

968
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: and lazy was he felt an improvement over manic episodes

969
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: and excessive activity. Many officials at mental hospitals felt the

970
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: same way. Freeman. Watt's patients were much easier to deal

971
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: with on a long term basis, since many of them

972
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: just sat around quietly. By Walter had started to experiment

973
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: with new methods of lobotomy. He was frustrated by the

974
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: fact that the procedure required a skilled neurosurgeon. That meant

975
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: he could only perform the operation when Watts was around,

976
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,720
Speaker 1: which dramatically limited the number of people he could properly lobotomize.

977
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: This was a problem because he'd come to believe that

978
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: lobotomies worked best for patients in the early stages of

979
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: their illness. If people waited too long. He feared the

980
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: lobotomy might not really help. So he's like, we got

981
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: to get into this ship faster. This needs to be

982
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: like the first thing we're doing first. You're feeling down today,

983
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: sitting this chair and shave your head. I'll be right

984
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: there now. Walter started looking into the research of other doctors,

985
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 1: and he found in a town in surgeon named Tomorrow,

986
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: Fiamberti Armano had developed a new procedure for reaching the

987
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: brain without drilling careful holes in the skull. Instead, Armano

988
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: broke into the skull through a soft bone at the

989
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: rear of the ice socket. Working on corpses, Freeman developed

990
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: a method of accessing the frontal lobe of the brain

991
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: through the ice socket using an ice pick from his kitchen.

992
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 1: Working in secret so Watts wouldn't find out, Freeman started

993
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: performing solo lobotomies in January of ninety six. He operated

994
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: out of the office he and Watch shared, but during

995
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: hours when he knew his partner would not be in

996
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: the building, Freeman ice picked nine human brains in short order,

997
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: sending his patients home in a taxi cab. Next. According

998
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: to The Washington Post, Freeman later wrote that during his

999
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: tenth transorbital surgery, he called Watts to his office to

1000
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: assess the operation. Wats later claimed, however, that he entered

1001
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: Freeman's office unsummoned and found Freeman pushing an ice pick

1002
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: in the ice socket of an unconscious man. Freeman audaciously

1003
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: asked Wats hold the ice picks so Freeman could take

1004
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: a photograph. Whichever account is true, no one disputes the

1005
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: result of this encounter. Whatt's threatened to break off their

1006
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: partnership if Freeman persisted in performing lobotomies himself and treating

1007
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 1: them as office procedures done without surgical gloves or sterile draping.

1008
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: For the remainder of his association with Watts, Freeman did

1009
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: these operations outside the office, So that's cool now, Watson.

1010
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: Freeman would later fall out professionally over the issue of

1011
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: transorbital lobotomies. Although Watts retained a deep respect for his partner,

1012
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: he couldn't get over his belief that brain surgery ought

1013
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: to only be carried out by a competent brain surgeon,

1014
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: not random guys with an ice pick. Controversial what a

1015
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: crazy stance, and Freedman was like, you are far out there. No,

1016
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: have you seen this ice pick? Children should be able

1017
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: to fix cars, and non brain surgeons should be able

1018
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: to put ice picks through people's eyes. I believe that now.

1019
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: A book the two men authored on the subject of

1020
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: lobotomies includes this paragraph. The authors regret to announce that

1021
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: they have been unable to reach an agreement on the

1022
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: subject of transorbital lobotomy. Freeman believes that he has proved

1023
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: the method to be simple, quick, effective, and safe to

1024
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: entrust to the psychiatrist. Watts believes that any procedure involving

1025
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: cutting off the brain tissue is a major operation and

1026
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: should remain in the hands of a neurological surgeon. This

1027
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 1: is when you're in a relationship with somebody and you're like,

1028
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know why we're fighting about this. Yeah,

1029
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: why we've been fighting about this? I've just I've just

1030
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: ice pick, and some motherfucker's like, why are you angry? Right,

1031
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 1: we shouldn't be having this fight. Yeah. This book, psycho

1032
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: Surgery and the Treatment of Mental Disorders and Intractable Pain,

1033
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: made an enormous splash in the world of medicine when

1034
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: it was first published in nineteen fifty the Tomb featured

1035
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: language not often used in works of medicine, like the

1036
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: term scrawny frayed cats used to refer to a group

1037
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: of patients. This lurd pros, along with the gaush marketing

1038
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 1: technique used by Freeman, who attract the press, alienated many

1039
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: mainstream medical professionals, but the book was popular and cemented

1040
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 1: Freeman's status is a radical physician working on the cutting,

1041
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: perhaps poking edge of medical science. On the eve of

1042
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: his fifty second birthday, he wrote, I have a feeling

1043
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: of competence and assurance that is almost grandiose. Maybe it

1044
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 1: comes from superb health, and maybe from the fruition of

1045
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: dreams that have proved within my grasp. But anyhow, I'm

1046
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: sitting on top of the world. So that's good. He's happy.

1047
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: What do you want? In our next episode, We're going

1048
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,479
Speaker 1: to talk about the second phase of Walter Freeman's career.

1049
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: We're also going to discuss the most famous patient he

1050
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: and Watts ever operated on, the poster victim of lobotomy

1051
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: and sister to President John F. Kennedy, Rosemary Kennedy. But

1052
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: right now, Daniel van Kirk, it's time for you to

1053
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: plug some plug doubles. I want to let everybody know

1054
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: I have my first comedy album coming out. It's on

1055
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Speaker 1: It's on Blonde Medicine. That's the label, and it will

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Speaker 1: drop on November fift Friday, November. It's called Thanks Diane.

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Speaker 1: I recorded it in Los Angeles at the UCB Theater

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00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: and uh, if this is before when you're hearing this,

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Speaker 1: you can go to Daniel van Kirk dot com and

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00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: pre order, or us go to the iTunes Store app

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00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: on your phone, specifically the iTunes Store app, and you'll

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Speaker 1: be able to pre order there. But on eleven fifteen

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Speaker 1: or any time there after, you can get it anywhere

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00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: that you get your music or listen to such things.

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00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: I should say music, but it feels like it's also

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Speaker 1: for comedy, but it's called Thanks Diane. And go to

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Speaker 1: Daniel van Kirk for all my tour dates as well

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Speaker 1: as my own podcast, pen Pals or Dumb People Tone

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Speaker 1: and I'm Robert Evans uh and you can find me

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00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: here on the podcast you're currently listening to, so please

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00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: keep listening to this podcast. You can find our sources

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00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: on behind the Bastards dot com. You can find us

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Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram and at bastards pod. You can

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00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at I right. Okay, Uh, you

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00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: can also find a lobotomy if you show up at

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Speaker 1: my door and pay me forty five dollars. I have

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Speaker 1: an ice pick, so you cannot be doing these. Brain

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Speaker 1: surgeons need to do these. I feel like anyone can

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Speaker 1: do these if they have an ice pick. Having this argument,

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Speaker 1: I I feel like Daniel, Daniel, I respect your opinion

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Speaker 1: on this, but I disagree with it well, and I

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Speaker 1: respect your expertise, but I think you need to wear gloves.

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Speaker 1: Oh gloves you mean cowards hands. All right, that's the

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Speaker 1: fucking episode. Buy a T shirt on t public and

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Speaker 1: go off into the world and perform unlicensed lobotomies or not. Nope, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: we're pro lobotomy now or not.