Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on.
Speaker 4: These are our stories, done done.
Speaker 2: It is Lisa and all of our incredible listeners. I
Speaker 2: forgot to record. I messed up the recording, so I
Speaker 2: might sound a little weird. Just for the introduction and outro,
Speaker 2: so I might sound a little weird. But whatever, We're
Speaker 2: all just humans trying our best. Hello, Welcome to That's
Speaker 2: Messed Up an sv podcast.
Speaker 1: I am Lisa and I am Kara, and this podcast
Speaker 1: is all about Law and Order SVU. We talk about
Speaker 1: specific episodes and then the true crimes are based on.
Speaker 1: Normally we talked to guests from the show, but we
Speaker 1: are not having guests because we are in solidarity with
Speaker 1: the WGA and SAG after right now, who are on strike.
Speaker 1: And before we do anything, we like to chat and well,
Speaker 1: it's your birthday.
Speaker 3: It's my birthday today. We're in the time machine.
Speaker 1: You're not listening to this till October baby, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's your birthday. Yeah, it's another birthday and your sun
Speaker 1: is shitting up a storm.
Speaker 3: Did he not get the memo. Did he not get
Speaker 3: the memo?
Speaker 2: I know?
Speaker 1: And like this morning he woke up so early and
Speaker 1: I was like, get out of here, and he's he's
Speaker 1: been six so he just wants to like come in
Speaker 1: my room in the morning and like be like just
Speaker 1: talk to me in bed, and I'm like stop talking.
Speaker 3: I'm like, can you be quiet?
Speaker 1: He goes okay, and then he's like Mama, and he
Speaker 1: just keeps talking to me.
Speaker 3: I'm like, be quiet, maybe yeah, more minutes.
Speaker 2: You're sick be of energy to harass me right now
Speaker 2: while I'm trying to get some shut eye and nild
Speaker 2: Wait did the kids? Did the kids like the balloons?
Speaker 3: Oh? So I just got home.
Speaker 1: So so, first of all, Lisa and I have all
Speaker 1: week been hopefully some of you listened. We've all the
Speaker 1: week of my birthday been on Radio Andy doing Reality Checked,
Speaker 1: guest hosting I Walk in Today.
Speaker 3: Lisa's got a balloon.
Speaker 1: Spread for me, including one of notorious cartoon Dad I
Speaker 1: Want to Fuck the Dad from Bluey, a bunch of
Speaker 1: other cute balloons, two big ass bottles of Modello cookies
Speaker 1: from Milk Bar, and a piece of Cheeto birthday cake
Speaker 1: from listen, this is the thing.
Speaker 3: Wait, I do want to know did the children like
Speaker 3: the balloones?
Speaker 1: So I got home with those balloons and Oscar came
Speaker 1: out from his nap and his eyes were like.
Speaker 3: What Like, he's like, look at the big bluey like
Speaker 3: he loves it.
Speaker 1: Rosie hasn't seen them yet, but when she sees them,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's gonna want to.
Speaker 2: Well, this party store, I want to go back. It
Speaker 2: was heaven. I couldn't believe it. It's called Vine Party
Speaker 2: and something.
Speaker 1: But oh the big one, the big one in Hollywood. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was like it was near where we record. It
Speaker 1: was like in that area that's like a famous party store.
Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. They deserve to be famous. They
Speaker 1: have like so many balloons, I mean so many. It
Speaker 1: was so cool in so many rows.
Speaker 2: And they have a whole circle display of Halloween balloons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it's it's.
Speaker 2: Cool because I but anyway, Yeah, it was. It was
Speaker 2: amazing in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I heard about them on my mom group because they
Speaker 1: were struggling during the pandemic, and I went there to
Speaker 1: get stuff for Rosie's birthday because I wanted to support
Speaker 1: them because I've been there for other parties and they
Speaker 1: have great shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really cute in there, but well it's
Speaker 2: more it's a warehouse. I wouldn't say cute. Yes, the
Speaker 2: items are cute. The items are cute. I there was
Speaker 2: a sign that said snow Queen and it was frozen,
Speaker 2: but I thought it said Sleigh Queen and I was like.
Speaker 3: Yes, but it wasn't. It wasn't it. You go Elsa,
Speaker 3: You cunty bitch. I love that.
Speaker 2: So we did have this Cheeto's cake from milk Bar.
Speaker 2: If you listen to us on serious, I apologize, But
Speaker 2: milk Bar has gone down, Like I wouldn't, I couldn't.
Speaker 3: I can't believe. I just am. It's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I actually kind of knew when they expanded
Speaker 1: to my neighborhood in New York, Like there was one
Speaker 1: on the Upper West Side for like the last two
Speaker 1: or three years that I lived there, and I would
Speaker 1: go there and be like, this doesn't taste like the
Speaker 1: one that I used to go to.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the line, but that's even how many years
Speaker 2: ago is that seven?
Speaker 3: Can you imagine how far they've slid? You know what
Speaker 3: I mean?
Speaker 2: I wish, I wish for the days where you thought
Speaker 2: it was bad. I just similar, like horrified. The oven
Speaker 2: wasn't on there. You just pick a cake in the
Speaker 2: fridge that's sitting like things are just pretty. It to
Speaker 2: be something so special. I was also younger. I was
Speaker 2: also newer, but it just well, I have to milk bar.
Speaker 2: I love Christina Tosi. I think you know I'm a fantom. Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe they need to do a little quality check at
Speaker 2: this one location.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just hired like one deadbeat strower to work
Speaker 1: at this one in LA and maybe he's the one
Speaker 1: bringing it down.
Speaker 2: A dead beat. He was a dead beat. That was
Speaker 2: a perfect word to describe him. So thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Kara's big birthday, also for me, was an IUD removal and.
Speaker 1: Replace, remove and replace, like I'm go and stop like Nascar,
Speaker 1: like they stop, they take off the tires, they put
Speaker 1: new ones on.
Speaker 2: You know it really I was a little over dramatic,
Speaker 2: but I really didn't like it.
Speaker 3: But I think, but now, I.
Speaker 1: Just psych yourself out and say I think it's better
Speaker 1: to be like, oh my god, it's gonna be terrible.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be terrible, and then say it was way
Speaker 1: worth less bad than I thought it was.
Speaker 3: It's still so bad. No, I will not good.
Speaker 2: I was crying and they were all very nice to me,
Speaker 2: but it was for more than it was just like
Speaker 2: but it wasn't the world.
Speaker 3: But it's just crazy.
Speaker 2: It's just I just thought of the weight of everything
Speaker 2: in the world because of that in my basshole. So
Speaker 2: we saw me and Kara saw the same toxic reddit
Speaker 2: I think today, and that was in my mind, and
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh, like, why is so much
Speaker 2: of womanhood associated with pain? And like we need to
Speaker 2: tolerate pain and it's like a sense of pride how
Speaker 2: much fucking pain it is And it's like fucking bullshit.
Speaker 3: Basically this reddit, in case anybody.
Speaker 2: Doesn't know what we're talking about, is this guy translate
Speaker 2: my race?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: This guy was like, my wife is having a baby
Speaker 1: and she's just made her birth plan like without me,
Speaker 1: and I really want her to have a natural birth
Speaker 1: because my mom and my sisters did that and she
Speaker 1: doesn't really get along with them that well, and I
Speaker 1: really think it would bring them closer together. I also
Speaker 1: don't want her to be like loopy and out of
Speaker 1: it at this important moment. And it's like that is
Speaker 1: not what an epidural does like, it does not make
Speaker 1: you a loopian out of it.
Speaker 3: It numbs your body, that's it. And then when you like.
Speaker 2: Scroll through all the like people are giving their answers,
Speaker 2: which is like you're a demon, You're a demon, You're
Speaker 2: a demon. And he's like, well, no, I watch videos
Speaker 2: on YouTube. I understand she should just do what I say.
Speaker 2: It's not just about her. I'm involved. I don't need
Speaker 2: your advice. It's like you just hope it's fake because
Speaker 2: this is horrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I don't know. Can they all be fake?
Speaker 1: Like there was one a few months ago that I
Speaker 1: saw where a guy was like, I think my am
Speaker 1: I the asshole for saying my wife should pay for
Speaker 1: the epidural. I don't think I should have to pay
Speaker 1: for that. That's like a luxury for her. No thing,
Speaker 1: this is sadly a thing. Or there was one thing I.
Speaker 2: Saw where it's like she wants me to do cut
Speaker 2: up watermelon for her and do things for her.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna treat her any different.
Speaker 2: And it's like, but wouldn't you treat anyone different if
Speaker 2: they suddenly ballooned with a human in them? Like yeah,
Speaker 2: I just I just well, I just saw a clip
Speaker 2: where this guy was like, well, you know, I married
Speaker 2: my wife because she was hot, and then after ten
Speaker 2: years I realized she was a person, and she's right
Speaker 2: sometimes then whoa, And it's like, and you think you're
Speaker 2: the smart one, go fuck yourself to Instagram.
Speaker 3: I love, but they really know how to put me
Speaker 3: in a rage.
Speaker 2: And I was just in such a rage where I
Speaker 2: was like, why is it cool to give oh? And
Speaker 2: he kept being like women have gotten given birth for
Speaker 2: thousands of years, it's fine, and everyone's like, yeah, a
Speaker 2: lot of them die.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they used to fucking die most of the time.
Speaker 2: And just because I don't understand why the pain is
Speaker 2: associated with like better or anything. It's like, do what
Speaker 2: you want if you want to feel it, feel it.
Speaker 2: But I just meanwhile, it's like I did the epidule.
Speaker 1: Both times I've talked about it, Like the first time,
Speaker 1: it fucking did it work, So I felt the second
Speaker 1: time it was a lot easier. The epidura was great.
Speaker 1: It's still a horrible process out your body. There's still
Speaker 1: so much pain involved. Why wouldn't you if you could
Speaker 1: remove one piece of the pain, they're there. I don't
Speaker 1: know this guy was so delusional. He goes, it's our birth.
Speaker 1: We're both having this baby, just in different ways, and
Speaker 1: it's like, no, sir, you are not having this baby.
Speaker 2: But he also said something about pain where it's like
Speaker 2: pain shouldn't determine things, like it's just something you deal with,
Speaker 2: and it's like, no fucking way fun.
Speaker 1: And then these guys have to pass a kidney stone
Speaker 1: and are like in tears and it's the worst thing
Speaker 1: they've ever experienced.
Speaker 2: Just no, it's like, well, you were built to do it,
Speaker 2: so do it in pain. Yeah, Gorilla, It's like crazy,
Speaker 2: it's it really sickened me. And so that's what I
Speaker 2: was thinking about. And obviously getting an IUD insertion is
Speaker 2: like what it's like, Oh, what the fuck are you
Speaker 2: digging in there, you psycho? And then it is like
Speaker 2: a piece of plastic and they have to show you
Speaker 2: the old one and they're like look and I have
Speaker 2: my eye I covered my eyes and she's like, look
Speaker 2: at it.
Speaker 3: You have to sign off that you saw it. Because
Speaker 3: also that.
Speaker 1: They don't like put another one in. No, like if
Speaker 1: a part of it was.
Speaker 2: Missing, like it could be in you and then infections
Speaker 2: or something. So this is kind of like you have
Speaker 2: to look at it and confirm that it is a
Speaker 2: full one.
Speaker 3: Okay, then chipped and.
Speaker 2: They're like they're like, if having an ID was easy,
Speaker 2: everyone would have one.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 2: And then at one point one of the nurses could
Speaker 2: tell I was stressed, and so she would talk to
Speaker 2: me for a while. And when the other two people,
Speaker 2: because it's like I think there was a student they
Speaker 2: walked in, she went, yeah, I was just keeping her company.
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, I thought you were asking ques.
Speaker 2: You can't say that in front of me, like we
Speaker 2: were making conversations.
Speaker 3: She was like, oh, I was just killing time. Yeah, thanks,
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Wait, so what are your plans for Oh yeah, so
Speaker 2: next intro you'll hear about our Vegas trip.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, we're going to be Oh I wanted
Speaker 1: to tell you this. I might as well tell you
Speaker 1: this on the podcast, but I did call. So we've
Speaker 1: been a little bit stressed because we are going to
Speaker 1: Vegas this weekend.
Speaker 2: And We'll be honest, one person and the rest the
Speaker 2: group has been ignoring me and saying I'm an idiot.
Speaker 3: No, no one thinks you're an idiot.
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, any news on the cyberacs seems like
Speaker 2: a big deal, and everyone's like, who cares, We'll change
Speaker 2: our passwords, it'll be fine.
Speaker 3: I'm like, what the fuck.
Speaker 1: No one has been No one has been taking it
Speaker 1: as seriously as Lisa, that's for sure. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, it happened like eight days ago. I
Speaker 1: was like, it'll be done by the time we're there,
Speaker 1: but it's not fully resolved. I did call them on
Speaker 1: the way back from our radio Andy today, so I
Speaker 1: spoke to a woman who I can't tell if she
Speaker 1: knows anything, but a live person that works there. She said,
Speaker 1: everything's pretty much working ATMs are still down and Wi
Speaker 1: Fi is in and out and that's it. But she's like,
Speaker 1: restaurants are taking credit cards, everything else is working, and
Speaker 1: things are getting better and better every day, Like so
Speaker 1: everything could be totally working by the time you get here.
Speaker 1: She couldn't say that for sure, obviously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well I'll be venmoing. I will not be
Speaker 2: putting my car down at the table.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna well paying cash, like where the fucking rap pack?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, just throwing down bills.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta take out cash. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I just haven't been to Vegas since before, like since
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and I'm so pumped. Do you like any
Speaker 1: gambling or you just haven't done it.
Speaker 2: I don't know why you have said either of those
Speaker 2: things to me. I play hold them. I know how
Speaker 2: to play old that's right. I think the guys can
Speaker 2: swindle me pretty fast. Have I done blackjack?
Speaker 3: Yeah? But I lose it fast.
Speaker 2: And like, I just feel like every time I gamble
Speaker 2: it's a letdown because it's like the money goes in
Speaker 2: and then I'm like, oh, that was four minutes and
Speaker 2: I guess I'm done, you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, and now I'm zero.
Speaker 1: This is why I like Roulette because it lasts a
Speaker 1: long time for me, Like, I guess you can play
Speaker 1: for a while, how because what are the chances that's
Speaker 1: gonna land on? What I do is I build up
Speaker 1: money on the sides. I build up money doing black
Speaker 1: or red od or even or playing the thirds. Okay,
Speaker 1: then once I get a little bit of then I
Speaker 1: start scattering them on the inside with the different numbers.
Speaker 1: Then you get a couple hits, you get a couple
Speaker 1: of misses. I'm not playing any huge like I'm not
Speaker 1: throwing a stack of them on black or anything like that.
Speaker 3: I don't do that.
Speaker 1: I build up on the outsides that I play the
Speaker 1: middle and I just have fun.
Speaker 3: But it lasts for a long time.
Speaker 2: When I play lays, I didn't realize you're betting on
Speaker 2: the outside than the inside. I don't think I realized
Speaker 2: there was depth to the game.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's I didn't know that either until I went
Speaker 1: and spent nine days in Vegas one time at the
Speaker 1: same hotel that we're seeing that, and I like, I
Speaker 1: learned how to play roulette and was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is fun, and like it is crazy because there's truly
Speaker 1: no skill, but it does I feel like you can like,
Speaker 1: you know, it lasts a little longer because yeah, when
Speaker 1: I play Blackjack, I just listened to what guys at
Speaker 1: the table tell me to do. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: know hit or stay, and they like tell me, and
Speaker 1: then I just, you know, sometimes I do well, like
Speaker 1: Beginner's luck, but then other.
Speaker 3: Times it's like, yeah, you just walk away with nothing.
Speaker 1: I wanted afusing you with our friend who's coming with us,
Speaker 1: who like has never gambled.
Speaker 3: I was confusing.
Speaker 1: I forgot what your gambling experience was.
Speaker 3: I was offended, So thank you for psyching that.
Speaker 2: Do you remember still my family credit card to gamble
Speaker 2: in the Dominican Republic like a little psycho my sister's
Speaker 2: idea underage gambling. No, I really, you know, if I
Speaker 2: see a sex in the city slot machine, I'm walking over.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of that type of person. But you know
Speaker 2: what I wish, Like I wish my kinds of games
Speaker 2: were gambling. I don't even know, like a price is
Speaker 2: way like categories? Can we put some money on that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Can we pay banana grams for money? Yeah? Like
Speaker 3: that would be a good idea, that would Well. That
Speaker 3: happened to me when I went to Foxwoods in Massachusetts
Speaker 3: one time and they had War, you know the game
Speaker 3: you just like play that with like your grandma. It's
Speaker 3: like the easiest game of all time, and you can
Speaker 3: play against you can play War against a dealer.
Speaker 1: And I played for a while and I was losing
Speaker 1: a lot, and then I came out of it, paid
Speaker 1: my friend back and want on extra hundred dollars on War.
Speaker 3: So stupid, wow wow wow wow.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I just hope someone I want to
Speaker 2: win big. But that's I guess the whole the whole
Speaker 2: foundation of how they swindle you. We all want to
Speaker 2: win big baby, But I'm.
Speaker 3: Excited to see We're also going to see Drag Race live.
Speaker 1: I know some of you are big drag fans like
Speaker 1: we are, and I'm excited to see the big show.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm pumped, Lazy River exciting.
Speaker 3: It is exciting.
Speaker 2: But I do feel like having kids takes away the
Speaker 2: idea of, like your birthday, we're really going to make
Speaker 2: the most out of it in the weekend without them. Yeah, really,
Speaker 2: it's just like you got you gotta pick a dinner place.
Speaker 3: They're gonna like it's a nice Well, well, here's the thing.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing. Because he's been sick.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get my nails done after we record today,
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna meet them at the playground where
Speaker 1: my husband will be keeping them, you know, caged in,
Speaker 1: and then we'll just walk. It's like the only I'm
Speaker 1: going to take them to a pizza place because it's
Speaker 1: like walkable.
Speaker 3: It's just easy.
Speaker 1: And then I have my show tonight and then I
Speaker 1: have my show. Is bad up maybe hanging out with
Speaker 1: some friends and I wanted you to come by, but
Speaker 1: you're busy and booked, and I only have.
Speaker 2: One I might come by because isn't it starts at
Speaker 2: eight or night now we're.
Speaker 1: Just it starts like eight fifteen. It starts like eight fifteen.
Speaker 1: If you live in LA come to my show, better half.
Speaker 1: Obviously you won't be at this birthday show because this
Speaker 1: is in the future, but you should go.
Speaker 3: It is a fun show.
Speaker 2: Now. I have a seven to fifty spot at the
Speaker 2: laugh Factory, and my friend Frecks is in town staying
Speaker 2: over there, and she really wants to staying out at
Speaker 2: the comedy store. So I feel like, you know she's
Speaker 2: in town, I should take her, show her rap, maybe
Speaker 2: get her a hot dog at Carnies. I don't know
Speaker 2: if she likes how dogs, but anyways, but I feel
Speaker 2: like going to your show is fun and if she
Speaker 2: wasn't in town, so we'll see what I can find.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean you're already coming to Vegas.
Speaker 1: I don't expect anything, and you went above and beyond
Speaker 1: with my beautiful blue balloon. All right, I'm going to
Speaker 1: sleep with my bandit balloon tonight.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I just love.
Speaker 2: The creativity of that party store. I'm honestly pissed I
Speaker 2: found it because I'm.
Speaker 3: Going to go into debt. Like. I really loved it
Speaker 3: in there.
Speaker 1: I've gone there to get shipped for like fourth of July.
Speaker 1: I've gone in there for tons of like they have.
Speaker 1: They have just good stuff and I've gotten kids stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they have good shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, y it's something.
Speaker 1: And everything at Party City is like a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: and I think they have more reasonable prices.
Speaker 3: It's good. It's good. We got to support the local businesses.
Speaker 2: Their prices are reasonable compared to what else is going on,
Speaker 2: and the other places aren't as creative as fun and
Speaker 2: fun in here. They had a whole of Manhattan balloon
Speaker 2: shaped like the Men, a drink of men like with
Speaker 2: a Maraschino cherry and a whiskey glass.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Okay, now I do a balloon. I'm
Speaker 3: getting you next year. That's like perfect.
Speaker 2: Disco balls, unicorns. I was just like blown away. Usually
Speaker 2: it's just Door the Explorer. I don't know why I
Speaker 2: said it, like.
Speaker 3: Explore, that dumb bitch. I love little Dora.
Speaker 2: She did something for short haircuts that no one, no
Speaker 2: one has done. Oh fucking Twiggy Yeah, Anna Winter and
Speaker 2: Dora the Explorer. The most iconic bobs in history. Bangs
Speaker 2: baby bangs for days. All right, we get started about SVU.
Speaker 2: I forget sometimes I know where are we? No, it's SVU.
Speaker 2: It's a good episode. Have a good time, guys.
Speaker 3: Wait one more thing. We're always trying to shove in
Speaker 3: our tour dates. Guys.
Speaker 1: Obviously this episode comes out on the third. This week,
Speaker 1: we are leaving for Buffalo, will be there on the
Speaker 1: eighth of October. We'll be in New Haven on the tenth,
Speaker 1: and Burlington on the twelfth, then Cleveland on the eighteenth,
Speaker 1: Boston on the nineteenth, Toronto on the twenty fourth, Detroit
Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth, and Pittsburgh on the twenty six.
Speaker 3: Guys, come see us.
Speaker 1: Some of these are new cities your friends tell bring
Speaker 1: people that you just think like comedy and maybe have
Speaker 1: seen SVU in a hotel twice.
Speaker 3: I promise they're going to like the show.
Speaker 1: We put on a good one and yeah, we just
Speaker 1: had a great run in September, and I'm excited for
Speaker 1: all these October shows. Boston, please get your fucking asses
Speaker 1: out there. We've got to fill up the Wilberg.
Speaker 3: We love you.
Speaker 1: Let's get started. Oh that's messed uplive dot com for
Speaker 1: all your ticket in bo all right, today we are
Speaker 1: covering competence, taking it back to two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: Season three, episode twenty two. We open in the precinct
Speaker 1: and we get right to business. Finn walks up to
Speaker 1: this lady. The actress is Lois Smith. She's very prolific.
Speaker 1: She has one hundred and forty five credits, ninety two
Speaker 1: years old, still working, honey, she has been in True Blood.
Speaker 1: Ladybird a bunch of stuff and Finn's like, can I
Speaker 1: help you, ma'am, and he passes her over to Stabler.
Speaker 1: She introduces herself as Rebecca Tolliver and she wants to
Speaker 1: speak privately and needs to report a rape. And she
Speaker 1: said it was her that was attacked. It was her daughter, Katie,
Speaker 1: and she said her daughter started throwing up, so she
Speaker 1: took her the doctor and the doctor said she's pregnant,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't have a boyfriend and she's twenty two.
Speaker 1: And the mom's just like, just talk to her, and
Speaker 1: she's waiting in the hallway. So we go out and
Speaker 1: Katie is sitting sort of sideways with hair covering her face,
Speaker 1: and when she turns to meet Stabler, we see.
Speaker 3: That she has Down syndrome.
Speaker 1: So that's the big Dune done reveal, and it's the
Speaker 1: shortest cold open in history. We're already at the credits
Speaker 1: and Katie is played by Andrea Fei Friedman, who has
Speaker 1: also been in Life goes On and voiced a character
Speaker 1: with Down syndrome on Family Guy. So she has been
Speaker 1: also working but may have left the business. At this point,
Speaker 1: I feel like she doesn't have anything more recent, but
Speaker 1: so top of Act one, they've brought in Olivia. She
Speaker 1: is much better at talking to people than Elliott. And
Speaker 1: Katie's explaining to Live about the pregnancy and she says
Speaker 1: there's no daddy, but babies need a mommy and a daddy.
Speaker 1: On the other side of the one way glass, Stabler
Speaker 1: and Katie's mom, Rebecca are watching and Rebecca's hell him
Speaker 1: that Katie's dad bounced as soon as she was born,
Speaker 1: and she explains that Katie is in with her all
Speaker 1: day she has she has to work, and so Katie
Speaker 1: goes to a day program and has a part time job,
Speaker 1: and she said it's very easy for someone to take
Speaker 1: advantage of her. And he asks if she's explained sex
Speaker 1: to Katie, but she says Katie has the mind of
Speaker 1: a child and she wouldn't get it. So back to
Speaker 1: live in Katie, and she asks if Katie knows like
Speaker 1: the birds and the bees, and Katie says it's private,
Speaker 1: and Live says, it's cool. We're both girls. Let's gab
Speaker 1: and I love that. I'd love to talk about sex
Speaker 1: with Olivia Benson. She says, babies come from sex, which
Speaker 1: is when a mommy and daddy kiss and hold hands.
Speaker 1: Aliv asks, if she kisses and holds hands with anyone,
Speaker 1: you can tell me.
Speaker 3: It'll be our little secret.
Speaker 1: Katie smiles and then says, I'm going to throw up,
Speaker 1: And so the mom goes rushing to help Katie and
Speaker 1: tells the cops to find the son of a bitch
Speaker 1: who did this to us.
Speaker 3: So Benson and Sable are.
Speaker 1: Talking to Craigan about this, and they're all like, it
Speaker 1: would be a lot easier if the mom had given
Speaker 1: Katie even like one tiny convo about six ed Because
Speaker 1: they're trying to educate her about sex and get the
Speaker 1: info out of her, and the jury will just think
Speaker 1: that they coached her.
Speaker 3: So let's get Huang's ass in here.
Speaker 1: So Stabler walks Katie and her mom in to meet
Speaker 1: with Wang, and the mom's like, how many more people
Speaker 1: do we need to talk to? Can't this wait till tomorrow?
Speaker 1: And it's like did you or did you not just scream?
Speaker 1: Find the son of a bitch who did this? Like
Speaker 1: I never understand these people that are like, stop talking
Speaker 1: to her, find the person who did this. It's like
Speaker 1: they're trying. Not all cops are trying. These cops are trying.
Speaker 3: So she doesn't want to put Katie through any more
Speaker 3: of this, and they leave, so they have to find
Speaker 3: another way. And it's always confusing to me.
Speaker 2: It's like you came in looking for help and then
Speaker 2: the moment it's not solved like that, no we got it.
Speaker 2: No she can't handle it. We're done, We're done. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you came here. This isn't even a situation where the
Speaker 2: detectives are knocking down your door demanding stuff. You came
Speaker 2: in and then are shutting it down, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: she's trying her best, but it's annoying to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we are going to see a pattern of
Speaker 1: overprotectiveness from this woman throughout this episode. As you know,
Speaker 1: this is a little foreshadowing of that, so they say
Speaker 1: they've got to find another way in. Katie's doctor confirmed
Speaker 1: the pregnancy and said that she had sex repeatedly, but
Speaker 1: there's no way to tell if it was forcible or not.
Speaker 1: And it's like, I think there is ways to tell,
Speaker 1: but I guess there's no evidence of whether it was
Speaker 1: forcible or not. Huang wants her test results from her
Speaker 1: day center so he can determine her abilities. So now
Speaker 1: we're at the Manhattan Adult day Center and we see
Speaker 1: a cute blonde man saying that Katie's IQ is fifty
Speaker 1: five between moderate and mild mental retardation their words, not mine.
Speaker 1: He asks how Katie's doing, and Live says, well, she's confused,
Speaker 1: to which Blondie replies, well, she would understand more if
Speaker 1: her mom let her out of the cocoon. Burn Rebecca Tolliver,
Speaker 1: he says, is overprotective. She doesn't think Katie can function
Speaker 1: in the world without her, and Blondie disagrees. And his
Speaker 1: name is actually this actor's name is C. J. Wilson,
Speaker 1: and he's had small parts in like Homeland, The Center,
Speaker 1: House of Cards, the Americans, many shows that I like.
Speaker 1: I don't remember him from these shows, but that shows
Speaker 1: he's been in. Tells them about what Katie does at
Speaker 1: the Center Art Music, and there's independent living classes and
Speaker 1: sex ed and is also taught, but Katie's mom won't
Speaker 1: let her take those classes, so they do background checks
Speaker 1: on all the employees, references they've never had a problem.
Speaker 1: He also tells them that Katie's best friend is named
Speaker 1: Danny Jordan and he's one of their success stories. Any
Speaker 1: chances they're more than friends, they ask, He says, we
Speaker 1: supervise the clients very closely. No one has reported Danny
Speaker 1: touching Katie, and he's taken dating and sex ed class,
Speaker 1: Danny hass, so Danny knows what's up. So now we're
Speaker 1: talking to Danny Jordan, and this is a little bit problematic.
Speaker 1: It is two thousand and two. He is played by
Speaker 1: an actor named James Badge Dale who is not mentally disabled,
Speaker 1: but is playing someone who's mentally disabled. So he is
Speaker 1: like putting on a full voice and doing a full
Speaker 1: acting job of playing someone with mental disability that I
Speaker 1: don't think you would see that today.
Speaker 3: But he says he knows what sex is.
Speaker 2: Let me interrupt for a second. Yeah, so that reminded
Speaker 2: me of our former guest Will Sasso, who display someone
Speaker 2: that maybe he shouldn't have been dropped. It gorgeous, best
Speaker 2: movie ever. He was in the episode Send in the
Speaker 2: Clowns that we covered. I got a DM from the
Speaker 2: guy in the clown Mask.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I had met him in New York years ago at
Speaker 2: the Comedy Cellar, like he you know, he was an actor,
Speaker 2: he was working at BuzzFeed. He's like me, he's Soviet
Speaker 2: Union vibes. And he messaged me. He goes, yeah, someone
Speaker 2: stopped me on the street and said that I have
Speaker 2: to listen to that's messed up because you guys talk
Speaker 2: about me and yeah, so he he just sent me
Speaker 2: a message being like, I'm the guy in the clown mask.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you were menacing and you did get fucked over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy that they framed. Oh my god, Wow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe you talked to him. Amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he goes, I'm dying and then he goes so
Speaker 2: many stories from that shoot, iced Tea being wild, the
Speaker 2: director just telling me I have anger management issues and
Speaker 2: I have to yell more.
Speaker 3: Iced T and I just.
Speaker 2: Yelled what was in the meet back and forth for
Speaker 2: about a half an hour.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I wish we could edit this into
Speaker 1: the Old Sun in the Clowns episode.
Speaker 3: I know who knew, but that's so.
Speaker 2: I mean, all these listeners are incredible because you know,
Speaker 2: I love the show. Praise PD and Anna the creator
Speaker 2: messaged me and she's like, yeah, my friend's sister in
Speaker 2: law said she listens to an SVU podcast that was talking.
Speaker 3: About the show. Do you know anything about that? Nogo?
Speaker 2: It was me.
Speaker 1: Now, we're not talking about we're not promoting anything that
Speaker 1: Hollywood makes.
Speaker 3: Now, what the fuck? Why won't they settle pieces of shit?
Speaker 1: I heard, like, there's so many rumors going on right now,
Speaker 1: but I did hear last week somebody say that they
Speaker 1: think that the CEO meeting is like they're getting their
Speaker 1: ducks in a row and preparing to make an offer.
Speaker 3: But I don't fucking know. There's a lot of a
Speaker 3: lot of rumors going on right now. Okay, So back
Speaker 3: to this actor, Thanks for my little you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, thank you for that side, very worthy interruption.
Speaker 1: So this guy playing Danny Jordan, who is mentally disabled,
Speaker 1: and he says he knows what sex is, but he
Speaker 1: says he never told Katie because she has to learn
Speaker 1: about it in school first, and he says they've never
Speaker 1: had sex. He knows someone has been bothering Katie, but
Speaker 1: he promised not to tell. They obviously convinced him like,
Speaker 1: we need to know so we can help Katie, and
Speaker 1: he goes, it's Ray, the bus driver. I take the
Speaker 1: regular bus, she takes the little bus. Katie says Ray
Speaker 1: is mean to her and that he touched her. So
Speaker 1: now we're at the grocery store where Katie works, and
Speaker 1: the manager is like, yeah, she came in crying one day,
Speaker 1: said that the bus driver pushed her. I told him
Speaker 1: I'd get him fired if I ever heard that happened again.
Speaker 1: He also says last month he fired the frozen food
Speaker 1: manager for calling her an imbecile. So this guy is
Speaker 1: coming off as a real, you know, captain of justice.
Speaker 1: At his job, he doesn't let anybody talk any shit
Speaker 1: to Katie. He says, we get an ignorant customer here
Speaker 1: or there, but Katie doesn't get a ton of shit
Speaker 1: at this job.
Speaker 3: She's on the board.
Speaker 1: Sorry, he's on the board of the day center, and
Speaker 1: he doesn't tolerate any bullshit like that. He says, he
Speaker 1: gets employees from the center all the time, they get
Speaker 1: union pay, real life experience, and they want to be there,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them work harder than people without disabilities,
Speaker 1: so it's a great deal for everybody at the precinct.
Speaker 1: Alex is like, we can't nab this bus driver until
Speaker 1: Katie tells us what he did. Elliott's on the phone
Speaker 1: trying to get the mom to let them talk to Katie,
Speaker 1: and then they find out this guy Ray, the bus
Speaker 1: driver's fifty two. He has no rap sheet, but he
Speaker 1: was fired from a nursing home for allegedly stealing from
Speaker 1: the residents. He claimed they were all gifts, but he
Speaker 1: targeted people with dementia, so the cops obviously couldn't make
Speaker 1: a case out of it.
Speaker 2: So you know what I just saw on a BuzzFeed
Speaker 2: thing where you know, nursing homes and assisted living are different. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and assisted living centers don't have the same like health
Speaker 2: codes and cleanliness codes and like medical stuff because it's
Speaker 2: not a medical place. And so a lot of these
Speaker 2: assisted living facilities, I guess are gross as fuck. And
Speaker 2: there's like STDs are like rampant in these assisted living
Speaker 2: facilities because everyone's hooking up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's not bad. Old people get to fuck like.
Speaker 1: I'm okay, I know, but they got to treat their
Speaker 1: STDs too. STIs stiyes. So Elliot says, okay, we're all
Speaker 1: set to talk to Katie tomorrow, and to make it happen,
Speaker 1: he promised her a trip to the zoo. So now
Speaker 1: we're at the Central Park Zoo. Stabler couldn't cough it
Speaker 1: up for the Bronx Zoo. I just took Rosie to
Speaker 1: the zoo. It's the Central Park one. It's tiny. I
Speaker 1: went to this seal ingclosure. It smells like absolute shit
Speaker 1: and they're hanging out right outside of it, and Katie
Speaker 1: and her mom are just laughing at the seals. The
Speaker 1: seals are barking. It's a lovely day. Live and Elliott
Speaker 1: show up with Cabot. Elliott takes the mom away and
Speaker 1: Live in Cabbot are left to talk to Katie. We
Speaker 1: first go to Elliott and Rebecca, the mom chatting. He
Speaker 1: brings up his twins. She talks about how when she
Speaker 1: found out she was pregnant, she dreamed of graduations, weddings, grandchildren.
Speaker 1: You know she's sixty seven. She goes, I can't take
Speaker 1: care of two completely dependent people. Like my daughter and
Speaker 1: her child, and he's like, well, the guy at the
Speaker 1: center thinks she has the potential to live on her own.
Speaker 1: And the mom's like, oh yeah, well that fucker thinks
Speaker 1: he can teach anyone anything. I let Katie out, and
Speaker 1: look what happened. I let her out into the real world,
Speaker 1: and look what happened. Back to live in Alex tucking
Speaker 1: to Katie, trying to get her to give some specifics
Speaker 1: on this bus driver. She says he took her necklace
Speaker 1: and it's a heart with a picture of her mom inside.
Speaker 1: She told her mom she lost it because Ray said
Speaker 1: he'd hurt them if she told. She also says he
Speaker 1: pinches her, and she shows where she starts at her arm,
Speaker 1: but then she points to her butt and her breast,
Speaker 1: So what the fuck is up with this bus driver?
Speaker 1: But she gets upset talking about it and calls for
Speaker 1: her mom, and the mom's like, you promised you wouldn't
Speaker 1: upset her, and then whisks her off for home. And
Speaker 1: they're like, this is not enough to prove rape, but
Speaker 1: it is enough for a search warrant for this guy's place.
Speaker 1: So we cut to Finn and Munch at Ray's apartment
Speaker 1: and Finn's like, what a dump and just shits on
Speaker 1: the furniture immediately, which I love. And then Munch finds
Speaker 1: Katie's necklace like in three seconds, like it's lying out
Speaker 1: like with a sign on it that says here's where
Speaker 1: the necklace is.
Speaker 3: Babes.
Speaker 1: So Benson and Stabler go to a rest Ray and
Speaker 1: the bus driver's like, what I do? Stabler off them
Speaker 1: up a little and says, Ray, when a cop tells
Speaker 1: you to do something, you should just do it, which
Speaker 1: I don't really agree with, but you know, this guy
Speaker 1: might be a child molester and at the very least
Speaker 1: is a thief of vulnerable people. In interrogation at the
Speaker 1: top of act two, it's the Cement and bars kind.
Speaker 1: Ray is worried that the bus company will fire him
Speaker 1: for leaving the bus on the street. Yeah, what does
Speaker 1: happen when you arrest a bus driver? There's just a
Speaker 1: bus hanging out on the street. And they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll they'll probably fire you for that, or maybe for
Speaker 1: robbing your passengers. And he goes, which one of those
Speaker 1: are words? Told you that very two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, you don't want to use that word around
Speaker 1: me again. Basically, he's going to introduce your face to
Speaker 1: a filing cabinet and give you the old Stabler special,
Speaker 1: so you better watch your mouth. They show him the
Speaker 1: necklace and he claims it was a gift, just like
Speaker 1: at the nursing home, and they go Katie says, you
Speaker 1: stole it, and he goes, well, it's my word against
Speaker 1: a morons, and he goes, oh, it just slipped out,
Speaker 1: and then Stabler kicks the chair out from under him
Speaker 1: as he's about to sit down, and Stabler goes, it
Speaker 1: just slipped out, so immature but hilarious. Stabler goes, a
Speaker 1: jury's not gonna love a purv taking advantage of mentally
Speaker 1: challenged women. Katie says, you touched her breast. He says, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe taking her in and out of the van, but
Speaker 1: I never went near any of them. And then they go, well,
Speaker 1: then how'd you get her pregnant? And the guy starts laughing.
Speaker 1: He's like, listen, after I knocked up my ex wife twice,
Speaker 1: I got a vasectomy, I'm shooting blanks, so I didn't
Speaker 1: knock anybody up. So now they're debriefing Kragan, and in
Speaker 1: this case, the bus driver is telling the truth. He
Speaker 1: had the operation two years ago, and they're going to
Speaker 1: book him for petty larceny. They can bump it up
Speaker 1: to robbery three if they can prove force. So we
Speaker 1: still have no idea who assaulted Katie. Finn and Munch
Speaker 1: arrived with some information. Apparently the state Office of Mental Retardation,
Speaker 1: which I didn't know existed, investigated Katie's day Center after
Speaker 1: an anonymous caller said some shady shit was going down there,
Speaker 1: and the same day the investigation started, an instructor named
Speaker 1: Joe Parker quit. So let's go talk to Joe Parker
Speaker 1: at a place on Seventh Avenue simply called special needs school.
Speaker 1: They literally couldn't come up with like, you know, the
Speaker 1: clank special needs school, the trigger's special, it's just the
Speaker 1: special needs school. Bunch and Finn go to talk to
Speaker 1: Joe Parker. He says he left because he got a
Speaker 1: better job, and then they play him the anonymous tip
Speaker 1: from the phone and it's definitely his voice. He's like, fine,
Speaker 1: I made the call, but I'm not telling you anything else,
Speaker 1: and they're like, clearly he wants to say more, and
Speaker 1: he immediately does. He says he quit because of Scott
Speaker 1: Lucas the blonde guy, and he claims that Scott got
Speaker 1: one of the clients pregnant.
Speaker 3: Done done, Okay are we.
Speaker 1: This episode is filled with red herrings, so what's happening?
Speaker 1: They go to the center and Scott's like, okay, listen,
Speaker 1: all of this is true, except for me being the
Speaker 1: person that did the impregnating. A client got pregnant. It
Speaker 1: was another client who was the father. We tested the
Speaker 1: DNA and everything. We didn't go to the cops. We
Speaker 1: thought we could handle it internally, and it's why we
Speaker 1: started teaching the dating classes because of parents like Katie's mother,
Speaker 1: this could easily happen again. The clients have the minds
Speaker 1: of children, but they have adult bodies and hormones, so
Speaker 1: we got to teach them what to do and not
Speaker 1: do with their bods. So Live in Elle leave and
Speaker 1: the live admits that the guy is right about Katie's mom.
Speaker 1: She has to let Katie talk to Huang, and Elliott says,
Speaker 1: let me take another shot at the mom. So now
Speaker 1: they're at a plant shop where the mom works, and
Speaker 1: Elliott is giving her the full court press and is
Speaker 1: finally like, who are you trying to protect?
Speaker 3: Here?
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm not saying it's your fault, but she's like,
Speaker 1: all of this is happening because twenty two years ago
Speaker 1: I chose to have a child with Down syndrome rather
Speaker 1: than have an abortion.
Speaker 3: It destroyed my marriage. She's my whole life.
Speaker 1: I have to protect her, so you could see why
Speaker 1: she's overprotective, but also her overprotectiveness possibly has led to
Speaker 1: what has happened. So it's, you know, typical SVU, making
Speaker 1: you think about all sides of the situation. Stabler says,
Speaker 1: let's make sure this doesn't happen again. We'll talk to
Speaker 1: her at the day center where she's comfortable, familiar surroundings.
Speaker 1: The ADA will be there so she doesn't have to
Speaker 1: repeat herself. She can just say her statement at one time.
Speaker 1: So now we cut Tohog interviewing Katie with Cabot beside her.
Speaker 1: She's he's quizzing her own body parts and she knows
Speaker 1: all of them and giggles when she has to say
Speaker 1: boob and it's like me too, girl. And now they
Speaker 1: talk about friends, and she says Danny's her best friend.
Speaker 1: They eat lunch together, they talk, they do other stuff
Speaker 1: that's private, like touch each other. When she has to
Speaker 1: point out the touching locations on Alex. She just holds
Speaker 1: Alex's hand. It's really sweet. And then she goes and
Speaker 1: we kiss and she kind of like rubs Alex's cheek
Speaker 1: and then she says, but Danny doesn't touch me on
Speaker 1: my private parts. She thinks she got her baby from
Speaker 1: Danny from kissing and calls Huanga dumbass. She's like, you
Speaker 1: don't even know how sex work, do you, dummy? And
Speaker 1: then they break it to the mom that Danny is
Speaker 1: Katie's boyfriend and that he might be the father. But
Speaker 1: Katie still has no idea how she got pregnant, So
Speaker 1: Rebecca starts yelling at the blonde guy, like how could
Speaker 1: you let this happen? And he's like, ma'am, you know
Speaker 1: we watch her like a hawk. If this happened with Danny,
Speaker 1: it didn't happen here. Katie's uncorroborated statement isn't enough to
Speaker 1: arrest anyone because of her disability, and we can't compare
Speaker 1: DNA until the baby's born. Rebecca says, well, we're terminating
Speaker 1: the pregnancy tomorrow. So Scott Lucas is heated. He's like,
Speaker 1: have you told Katie? Does she have a say in this,
Speaker 1: and Rebecca's like, the baby has a fifty fifty chance
Speaker 1: of having down syndrome. Who's going to take care of
Speaker 1: them when I'm gone? He says, we will here with
Speaker 1: our resources at the center, and she's like, I'm not
Speaker 1: having her go through what I've gone through.
Speaker 3: She can't keep this baby.
Speaker 1: So Katie walks in overhearing and is like, why why
Speaker 1: can't I have my baby? And she tries the mom
Speaker 1: tries to explain it to her. She's like, I can't
Speaker 1: take care of both of you, and she's like, why
Speaker 1: can't I be a mommy?
Speaker 3: And everyone's looking at the floor.
Speaker 1: It's very uncomfortable, and Rebecca's like, let's not talk about
Speaker 1: this now. She gives the address to Stabler where they're
Speaker 1: going to have the abortion and says I'll meet you
Speaker 1: tom like, you can meet us there tomorrow and you
Speaker 1: can get your DNA sample. So they leave as Katie
Speaker 1: is continuing to beg her like Mommy, please don't take
Speaker 1: away my baby. At the clinic, Katie's checking in and
Speaker 1: Benson is there to get the tissue sample.
Speaker 3: Then this is the next day.
Speaker 1: Then Scott shows up, the blonde guy and Rebecca's like,
Speaker 1: what the hell are you doing here? And he's got
Speaker 1: a lawyer with him, and he's filed an injunction to
Speaker 1: stop the abortion because Katie has a right to decide,
Speaker 1: So he's challenging the mother's guardianship based on the fact
Speaker 1: that she's making her daughter terminate her pregnancy against her wishes.
Speaker 1: The mother argues she's not capable of making that decision,
Speaker 1: and then that's the end of C two. So now
Speaker 1: at the precinct, Alex is laying it out for Benson
Speaker 1: and Stabler. If the court finds Katie competent to care
Speaker 1: for her child, her rapist lawyer will argue that she's
Speaker 1: competent to consent to sex. So this is like a
Speaker 1: real catch twenty two here, even though she barely knows
Speaker 1: where this baby came from, they'll focus on the fact
Speaker 1: that she never said no. Alex asks how far along
Speaker 1: is Katie and they tell her ten weeks too early
Speaker 1: for an amnio, but not for a CVS test, which
Speaker 1: is when tissue is taken from the placenta lining and
Speaker 1: used to get the baby's DNA, and it's less risky
Speaker 1: than an amnio, and maybe the mom will go for
Speaker 1: it because we'll find out if the baby has down
Speaker 1: syndrome or not. So before they even make it to
Speaker 1: the building, the mom is outside panicking. Kati's supposed to
Speaker 1: be at school, but she never got there. I don't
Speaker 1: know where Katie is. So sometimes it's crazy to me
Speaker 1: that they set up these whole scenes, like, you know,
Speaker 1: there was like a crew and all the shit craft services, extras,
Speaker 1: everything outside of this apartment building just for her to go.
Speaker 1: Katie supposed to be at school and never got there,
Speaker 1: and then they cut to another scene, like it just
Speaker 1: is wild to me. So anyway, at the precinct, we
Speaker 1: find out that Danny is not at the day center.
Speaker 1: He called in sick, so they're probably somewhere together. He
Speaker 1: has an independent living apartment in the East Village. His
Speaker 1: parents are in Riverdale. They might be on the run
Speaker 1: to prevent the abortion. But it turns out also that
Speaker 1: Danny's parents have an old apartment on seventy third in Amsterdam,
Speaker 1: where Danny grew up. They might be headed there. Danny
Speaker 1: has a roommate named Andy McCollum at his East Village place,
Speaker 1: so they go talk to him at the apartment and
Speaker 1: Andy is in a wheelchair with a sassy attitude. Danny
Speaker 1: didn't tell me where he went. We don't answer to
Speaker 1: each other. So he says he was there last night.
Speaker 1: He saw Danny earlier, and he's being really cagy with
Speaker 1: the details. And it's a free country. He says, you
Speaker 1: need to find Katie. So a mom can a boarder baby.
Speaker 1: I know everything that's going on, and Andy is not
Speaker 1: down with this plan. And then Finn goes, come on
Speaker 1: Andy with the attitude, we just want to make sure
Speaker 1: they're both safe, and Andy's like, all right, he was
Speaker 1: here this morning. They took some clothes and left. He
Speaker 1: asked for money, but he didn't have any cash, so
Speaker 1: I gave him my ATM car and they're like, is
Speaker 1: that something you normally do? He could clean you out,
Speaker 1: and they're like, he won't. If you can't trust Danny,
Speaker 1: you can't trust anyone. So I love that these guys
Speaker 1: are buddies. On the Upper West Side, Stabler meets up
Speaker 1: with Munch and Finn and confirm that Danny used the
Speaker 1: ATM in that area and took out two hundred dollars,
Speaker 1: and Finn goes, you can barely get dinner in this neighborhood.
Speaker 3: For two hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I used to live there and I
Speaker 1: ate from a bodega most of the time, so you can.
Speaker 1: Benson goes, okay, Well, a couple like that would stand out,
Speaker 1: and it's like watch it. Olivia like, let's not. Let's
Speaker 1: I know it's only O two. So they start canvassing
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. At a pharmacy, a guy recognizes their photo
Speaker 1: and says they were in there because Katie was throwing up.
Speaker 1: He didn't give her anything for the vomiting because she's pregnant,
Speaker 1: but told them to get ginger ale. It's as good
Speaker 1: as anything, which is apparently not true. Many of you
Speaker 1: have told me when Lisa and I had our sprite
Speaker 1: versus ginger ale conversation when you're sick, that ginger ale
Speaker 1: apparently nowadays doesn't even have enough ginger to even warrant
Speaker 1: being good for your stomach. But for me, it is
Speaker 1: the flat ginger ale is the thing to have when
Speaker 1: you feel sick, and that's what I I had when
Speaker 1: I was pregnant. A guy at a deli also recognizes
Speaker 1: them and said they must have a newborn because they
Speaker 1: cleaned him out of diapers. In infant size, and they
Speaker 1: also bought ginger ale and the girl said she needed
Speaker 1: a job, and he goes, I could tell she was
Speaker 1: a bit slow, and it's like, well, nothing gets by you,
Speaker 1: and he says the husband helped her fill out a
Speaker 1: job application because she was looking for a job. So
Speaker 1: they know where they are, and next we're at Broadway Arms,
Speaker 1: which I think is an apartment building but because it
Speaker 1: looks like one, but later they say it's a hotel
Speaker 1: but it has a kitchen in it, so who knows.
Speaker 1: Katie's there and tells them that she's cooking soup and
Speaker 1: her mom won't let her cook, but Danny taught her how.
Speaker 1: So she offers Lives some chocolate milk and Lives like,
Speaker 1: hit me, babe, let's do it. I want chocolate milk.
Speaker 1: And Danny walks in and is like what do you
Speaker 1: cops want and he says, you can't take our baby,
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, Rebecca, Katie's mom wants her home,
Speaker 1: and Katie's like, this is our new home. And she
Speaker 1: shows them their beds and they have separate twin beds
Speaker 1: and Danny's like, we're getting married. So this is like
Speaker 1: very sweet that they have, you know, kind of decided
Speaker 1: to just start their own life together. At the precinct,
Speaker 1: Rebecca hugs Katie and is like, I was so worried
Speaker 1: about you, and and she's yelling at Danny what did
Speaker 1: you do to her?
Speaker 3: And Danny's like, I didn't hurt her.
Speaker 1: I love her and she loves me, and he says,
Speaker 1: I never had sex with Katie. And he even told
Speaker 1: Katie what sex was earlier, and she didn't believe him.
Speaker 1: She said, that's not sex, that's exercise. And that is
Speaker 1: the scariest part of this whole thing is that she
Speaker 1: was having sex. She thought it was called exercise. So
Speaker 1: now they're talking to Katie in an office with her mom.
Speaker 1: She explains exercises when you pull your pants down and
Speaker 1: you sit on someone's lap, and they're like, who taught
Speaker 1: you that? And she says it's a secret, and the
Speaker 1: mom says, you can tell me and Olivia, but then
Speaker 1: he won't give me any more ice cream and candy,
Speaker 1: she says, and they're like, who won't And she goes,
Speaker 1: mister Cheney, that's done done. Her boss at the grocery store,
Speaker 1: the hero who hires people from the center and is
Speaker 1: on their board, but is fully just a predator.
Speaker 3: Everyone is trash.
Speaker 1: Katie says it hurt, but he said it wouldn't hurt
Speaker 1: once she could do it better. Oh Vi and Rebecca
Speaker 1: looks sickened, but they try to kind of hold it
Speaker 1: together for Katie to like not express how like horrifying
Speaker 1: this is. So now we've got Cheney, the grocery store manager,
Speaker 1: in interrogation and he's like, this is the thanks I
Speaker 1: get for trying to help Katie, and it's like he goes,
Speaker 1: the only exercise Katie and I ever did was task repetition,
Speaker 1: which is how you train disabled people to function in
Speaker 1: a work environment. And they're like, and dropping your pants
Speaker 1: is part of it. Finn asks he acts like Katie
Speaker 1: can't separate reality from fantasy. They're like, just give us
Speaker 1: that sweet DNA swab and we can clear this all up.
Speaker 1: And then he lawyers up. So not looking good if
Speaker 1: you're innocent. Cabot tells them Katie's mom's taking her to
Speaker 1: get the CVS test. When you get the tissue sample,
Speaker 1: call me. I'll get a warrant for this guy Cheney's DNA.
Speaker 3: In the middle of the conversation, though, Alex gets served
Speaker 3: and live rushes up and goesh, call he just got served.
Speaker 3: He wanted to warn you. Oops, it's too late. She's
Speaker 3: already been served.
Speaker 1: Scott Lucas's attorney is calling on Huang and Cabot to
Speaker 1: testify that Katie is competent to keep her baby. So
Speaker 1: now Cabot is talking to a bureau chief, our girl,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Donnelly aka Judith Light, and she's like, no problem,
Speaker 1: this compromises an ongoing investigation. I'll make the subpoena go away.
Speaker 1: And Cabot's like, I'm not sure that's a good idea,
Speaker 1: and she goes, well, it is if you want to
Speaker 1: put Katie's rapist away. And Cabot's like, Katie's mom wants
Speaker 1: to abort the baby, and maybe that should be Katie's choice,
Speaker 1: And Donnelly's like, you want to be a crusader for
Speaker 1: victim's rights, go work for social service. In this house,
Speaker 1: we believe that you fucking nail purpse. And that's it.
Speaker 1: So Alex says, Katie has already been victimized once. If
Speaker 1: I testify, I don't want to victimize her twice. And
Speaker 1: Donnaly's like, you're not Katie Tolliver's lawyer, you represent the
Speaker 1: people of the state of New York. Your duty is
Speaker 1: to convict her rapist. And if she's found confident, you're
Speaker 1: going to lose. Cheney's lawyer will say, get her to
Speaker 1: say that she knew what she was doing and that
Speaker 1: she liked it, and he will destroy her on the stand.
Speaker 1: So now we're back at the plant shop, alex is
Speaker 1: talking to Rebecca. Scott Lucas will drop his challenge of
Speaker 1: her guardianship if you agree not to terminate the pregnancy,
Speaker 1: and she's like, that's the whole fucking point. I can't
Speaker 1: do that. Needs the abortion and to have her tubes
Speaker 1: tied so this doesn't happen again. And she's like, well,
Speaker 1: what about what Katie wants? And the mom's like, I
Speaker 1: love my daughter. Maybe I should have let her take
Speaker 1: sex ed, but I knew she wouldn't get it, And
Speaker 1: then Cabot kind of just cuts to the chase and goes,
Speaker 1: why do you need Katie to be so dependent? And
Speaker 1: she's like, I have sacrificed everything for her, and Cabbot goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: including Katie's right to live her own life, and Rebecca
Speaker 1: looks taken aback no one's ever called her out like this.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it just takes a Cabot, a Cabot convo to.
Speaker 3: Snap you to get you together.
Speaker 1: In court, Cabot is testifying that when detectives found Katie,
Speaker 1: the hotel room again I thought it was an amartment
Speaker 1: was immaculate. Katie had bought diapers and was cooking food.
Speaker 1: She had also applied for the job at a deli.
Speaker 1: The lawyer is like, why did you testify today and
Speaker 1: jeopardize your rape case? And Cabot says, all evidence points
Speaker 1: to Katie being able to care for a child and
Speaker 1: to be able to choose.
Speaker 3: Whether or not to have that child.
Speaker 1: And then okay, the defense or that guy rests and now, uh,
Speaker 1: Rebecca hired Roger Kressler, so look out because he is
Speaker 1: no one to be trifled with. He approaches Cabot with
Speaker 1: the DD five that Benson wrote about the interview with
Speaker 1: Katie at the zoo. The document says that Katie could
Speaker 1: not articulate what happened to her and shows absolute compliance
Speaker 1: to authority figures do you think someone who can't accurately
Speaker 1: describe being attacked can take care of a child? And
Speaker 1: Cabot's like, many women cannot describe the details of their attack.
Speaker 1: You're taking this out of context. Then they literally slam
Speaker 1: her with a do you have children, Ada, Cabot not detective.
Speaker 1: Do you have children, Assistant district attorney? She goes, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. He goes, do you think buying diapers six
Speaker 1: months before birth demonstrates good judgment? It is something I
Speaker 1: thought about. You really don't need to have diapers hanging
Speaker 1: around for that long? But did you know Katie once
Speaker 1: set fire to her mother's apartment trying to use the stove,
Speaker 1: and Cabots got him there. She goes, I set fire
Speaker 1: to my own stove last year, very very classy. And
Speaker 1: she goes, you sit here saying you know more about
Speaker 1: what Katie is capable of than her mother. And it
Speaker 1: kind of ends on that, and we cut to Huong
Speaker 1: on the stand and Katie has He says Katie has
Speaker 1: low IQ but is high functioning. He testifies that Katie
Speaker 1: was more vulnerable to RATE because she didn't know what
Speaker 1: was happening to her because her mother prevented sex education.
Speaker 1: He testifies that he thinks Katie could care for a
Speaker 1: child and that with the correct social service support in
Speaker 1: case management, they would be fine. Kressler approaches and goes,
Speaker 1: what about her competence to consent to sex? She didn't
Speaker 1: know what sex was, and so she was incapable of consent,
Speaker 1: So she's incapable of making decisions that affect her life.
Speaker 1: And Kuwang go's that's not what I said. She can
Speaker 1: make decisions and choices based on the proper info. Huang
Speaker 1: says he spent two and a half hours with Katie
Speaker 1: at her day center, and Kresler's like, so you talk
Speaker 1: to her in a vacuum, and so we're getting the
Speaker 1: feeling that Kressler's kind of like getting the one up
Speaker 1: on all these uds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm tim Kressler like, cabin mind your business,
Speaker 2: Like why are you You're going to decide if this
Speaker 2: woman is competent enough or not.
Speaker 3: It's just like it does. It is annoying to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also just not enough, Like her escaping to
Speaker 1: a hotel where she cooked soup and offered chocolate milk
Speaker 1: is like not really enough to say. Let you know, like,
Speaker 1: I'm fully in possession of all my mental faculties and
Speaker 1: having children is so fucking hard. So I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: like when her mother is gone or her mother is
Speaker 1: in advanced age. It will be quite a difficult task,
Speaker 1: I would say, but what do I know? I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're going to tell me about a real case maybe
Speaker 1: where this or maybe there isn't Maybe I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe there isn't one who knows anyway.
Speaker 3: Now Katie is on the stand.
Speaker 1: She says her mom doesn't let her do laundry, kushelll
Speaker 1: mess up the clothes and she can't use the stove
Speaker 1: because of the fire. But Danny taught her how. So
Speaker 1: we're you know, Danny's teaching her how to do stuff.
Speaker 1: She says, we bought bottles and diapers and he's going
Speaker 1: to show me how to give the baby a bath.
Speaker 1: I can do this, mama, I can do lots of things.
Speaker 1: And it's really sweet how she's like really begging to
Speaker 1: do it. And Cressler's like, how do you change a diaper?
Speaker 1: How do you feed a baby? What do you do
Speaker 1: when a baby has a fever? She doesn't know the
Speaker 1: answer to any of these questions, but she's like, but
Speaker 1: I can learn. Danny will help me. And like, to
Speaker 1: be fair, my husband didn't know the answers to any
Speaker 1: of these questions. Before we had a baby, like, you
Speaker 1: do have to learn this stuff. So I don't knows
Speaker 1: has points, but he's like bullying a person with mental
Speaker 1: disability right now, and he's like, but you can't do
Speaker 1: it by yourself, can you? And Katie starts crying and
Speaker 1: Rebecca gets up and it's like stop stop this. In
Speaker 1: the precinct, Cabot reveals that Rebecca has given up her
Speaker 1: guardianship and now that Katie is considered competent, the rape
Speaker 1: case is out the window. Why is she competent though,
Speaker 1: just because of their testimony, Like who actually declared her
Speaker 1: competent anyway, I guess. So they say, now that Katie
Speaker 1: is competent, the rape case is out the window, and
Speaker 1: Donnelly is going to have her ass But the results
Speaker 1: came back and it is positive that Cheney is the father.
Speaker 3: But this conviction is going to be tough.
Speaker 1: His attorney's going to make it seem like she consented
Speaker 1: to sex and lives like she was in that office
Speaker 1: three days a week. Someone must have seen her go
Speaker 1: in there or told someone at work, we need to
Speaker 1: talk to Katie and they're like, well, her mom won't
Speaker 1: let you go near her. And they're like, well, what
Speaker 1: if we have good news for a change. So Stabler
Speaker 1: meets Rebecca in a park and tells her, I've got
Speaker 1: news for you. Your grandchild does not have Down syndrome.
Speaker 1: And she says, oh, thank god. But the way she
Speaker 1: says it is she goes, oh thank god, like she's
Speaker 1: so relieved. But you didn't need to meet us here
Speaker 1: to tell us that, she says and lives like, we're
Speaker 1: gonna lose this rape case against Cheney unless we talk
Speaker 1: to Katie. And Katie is over pushing a little kid
Speaker 1: on the swings and it's really sweet and she's talking.
Speaker 1: She's totally down to talk to Elliott Olivia. She's like, Hi, Elliott,
Speaker 1: Hi Olivia. Like she's like embracing them, and she tells them, yeah,
Speaker 1: once mister Cheney got mad at me when I saw
Speaker 1: him exercising with Mary Anne and he yelled at me.
Speaker 1: And they're like, mary Anne, who's that? And she goes
Speaker 1: she lets me play with her baby girl, Julia. So
Speaker 1: now we're in the interrogation room with this rapist Cheney,
Speaker 1: and he's being represented by renowned hattie Trevor Langen aka
Speaker 1: Peter Herman aka Personal Laundry spokesperson and mister merscall Hargatee.
Speaker 1: I'm upset that he's taken this case cause it's with DNA.
Speaker 1: It's like it's open and shut. In walks Cabt with Katie.
Speaker 1: She walks into the room with this man and Cheney
Speaker 1: looks shook. He's like, uh and his lo players offer
Speaker 1: sexual misconduct a misdemeanor and there's no way, Cabot says,
Speaker 1: and he's like, come on, you don't want to embarrass
Speaker 1: Katie in court again. She never said no. She enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: She kept coming back for more. And Cabbot's like, one
Speaker 1: count of rape, two for Katie and he does ten years.
Speaker 1: And Langan's like, we'll take our chances in court. And
Speaker 1: she's like, I thought you might say that, and she
Speaker 1: slaps down a bunch of pictures of kids that this
Speaker 1: sick fuck has fathered with employees he's been raping over
Speaker 1: the years, three of whom Three of these employees were
Speaker 1: underage at the time. We went through your financials and
Speaker 1: you've been paying the moms off for their silence. It's
Speaker 1: a very wealthy grocery store manager. She goes, now you're
Speaker 1: going to pay more, and she hands them a petition
Speaker 1: for child support. There are five more coming. That's six kids.
Speaker 1: Each will receive seventeen percent of your chain of grocery stores,
Speaker 1: your personal fortune and everything you own. Your money is
Speaker 1: going to take care of Katie and her child for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. And I guess this guy
Speaker 1: is like part of the Gristities family or something. And
Speaker 1: Langan looks very defeated. He like walks away from his client.
Speaker 1: Cheney's eyes are bulging out of his head. And Katie
Speaker 1: looks proud of herself for standing up to this monster,
Speaker 1: and behind the glass, her mom looks very proud of
Speaker 1: her as well.
Speaker 3: And that's dick Wolf.
Speaker 1: My baby's a rough episode, obviously, but I love that
Speaker 1: Katie's victorious in the end, and I guess is keeping
Speaker 1: her baby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm glad this dude is what is it,
Speaker 2: seventeen percent per person now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, seventeen percent per child? Wow?
Speaker 1: Wow, But that's even more than one hundred percent seventeen
Speaker 1: times six. Yeah, it's one o two, So I guess
Speaker 1: she's rounding up all right, all right, so it's like
Speaker 1: probably sixteen point eight percent or something like that.
Speaker 2: I do love when cabin uh lays down the law.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love when she goes to a boardroom, you know,
Speaker 2: really gets the money out of these motherfuckers.
Speaker 3: Fuck. So he's not going to jail, he's just gonna pay.
Speaker 3: He's I think he's all so good a going.
Speaker 1: They're also going to take him to court and see
Speaker 1: what happens. But I think he should take the deal
Speaker 1: because but.
Speaker 2: Is he like Nick Cannon, like he loves bothering or
Speaker 2: it's just like it happens, or he obviously gets something
Speaker 2: off of getting these people pregnant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or he just doesn't like to use condoms. And
Speaker 1: it's like, I'd rather pay for like pay for these kid,
Speaker 1: pay these moms off. I hope it's a successful grocery
Speaker 1: store chain because I want them to get all the money.
Speaker 3: It's just tough.
Speaker 2: It's like, I mean, we'll get into it with the
Speaker 2: real case, all right, So stay tuned. So this episode
Speaker 2: is based on the case of a net r Annette
Speaker 2: was a forty one year old mentally disabled woman who
Speaker 2: was driven home one day by a coworker and she
Speaker 2: was assaulted. But she didn't know the word for rape
Speaker 2: or what had happened to her in any capacity, and
Speaker 2: it has an IQ of sixty three, and this coworker
Speaker 2: pulled his car into a vacant lot forcibly, removed her clothing,
Speaker 2: and then raped her. She came home, she cried all night,
Speaker 2: but said nothing to her parents and just went to
Speaker 2: work the next day. While at her job at a
Speaker 2: fast food restaurant, she did her job, but then the
Speaker 2: same man approached her, which led her to like fully
Speaker 2: break down and tell a friend. And so she explained
Speaker 2: to her friend what happened, but she said that the
Speaker 2: man urinated on her, and her friend then like had
Speaker 2: to explain to an.
Speaker 3: Net what rape is.
Speaker 2: H and the mentally disabled have the same protections as
Speaker 2: underage people, so like, even if there is actual consent,
Speaker 2: it's irrelevant because the person is incapable of giving legal consent.
Speaker 2: And a lot of these crimes are non forcible crimes,
Speaker 2: according to The New York Times in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2: But there are like there's a breach of trust or
Speaker 2: subtle coersion or submission to authority. So even if it's
Speaker 2: not like physical like overpowering, there.
Speaker 3: Is like this subtle core that takes place.
Speaker 2: And those that have diminished capacity are often very trusting,
Speaker 2: especially of people they respect, so they're often not included
Speaker 2: in all social circles and they're desperate for acceptance. And
Speaker 2: like above, even when a victim is capable of speaking
Speaker 2: about it, it's usually too late or too vague, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't meet the requirements of criminal prosecution.
Speaker 3: So these are just like really tough cases.
Speaker 2: And obviously we always talk about how predators know who
Speaker 2: they should.
Speaker 3: Go after, you know, vulnerable, and.
Speaker 2: So very few cases of sexual assault make their way
Speaker 2: through their co worts, and especially with a disabled population.
Speaker 2: Barbara Eggenhauser was the Chief of General Trials in the
Speaker 2: District Attorney's office and she was able to get a
Speaker 2: conviction for a neet's assailant September nineteen ninety three, but
Speaker 2: for sexual abuse, not rape, and it was not easy.
Speaker 2: Barbara goes through why it's harder to get the conviction. First,
Speaker 2: there needs to be a witness that meets the threshold
Speaker 2: requirement where they must possess the intelligence and capacity to
Speaker 2: understand what an oath means and what the truth means.
Speaker 2: Another issue is the requirement of corroboration. New York state
Speaker 2: law states that a person cannot be convicted of a
Speaker 2: crime based solely on the victim's testimony if the victim
Speaker 2: is mentally defective. This requirement used to be for all
Speaker 2: rape victims, but that has been removed even with a
Speaker 2: child testifying, and so it only exists for the mentally disabled.
Speaker 3: So that's tough.
Speaker 2: And then some people have issues with efforts to integrate
Speaker 2: the mentally so this is like very much about the
Speaker 2: mom and stuff. So, like, some people have issues with
Speaker 2: efforts to integrate the mentally disabled into society as a
Speaker 2: whole because it makes them more vulnerable to crime and exploitation.
Speaker 2: But most professionals that work with the special population disagree
Speaker 2: and they're like it brings them up like more risk
Speaker 2: and abuse because they're isolated and institutionalized. Like assaults still
Speaker 2: remains really high. So no matter how you shake it,
Speaker 2: it's bad. It's like they're either in a center super
Speaker 2: isolated with tons of people that can abuse them, or
Speaker 2: they're out in the world, making them vulnerable to exploitation
Speaker 2: by you know, grocery store people, so you know, just
Speaker 2: fucking bad people everywhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then some people also think, so this is wild.
Speaker 2: So some people think that mentally disabled population can't have
Speaker 2: feelings or don't experience emotions. So I guess there are
Speaker 2: people who just are like, well, they don't know what's
Speaker 2: going on, so they can't feel actual repercussions from a
Speaker 2: sexual assault. And for that reason, read an impact statement
Speaker 2: at the criminal trial, and so this is what she said,
Speaker 2: Dear judge, I would like Oh to get the maximum
Speaker 2: years in prison because he hurt me very badly. It
Speaker 2: changed my body and my life. After the rape, I
Speaker 2: had to sleep with the light on. I had terrible nightmares.
Speaker 2: I cried so much he laughed, judge when they arrested him.
Speaker 2: I became very depressed and so sad. I tried to
Speaker 2: commit suicide with sleeping pills. I lost my job and
Speaker 2: I can no longer babysit for my sister's son. I
Speaker 2: had no feelings for a long time. I couldn't enjoy
Speaker 2: any birthdays or by any presents or anything. So it
Speaker 2: seems like she fucking gets what happened and had things
Speaker 2: happened to her. Oh was convicted of six counts of
Speaker 2: sexual abuse and was sentenced to six months in jail
Speaker 2: what and five years of probation?
Speaker 1: I mean, like, am I crazy that the punishment should
Speaker 1: be worse? Almost for days like, I don't well because
Speaker 1: it can't be right. It's abuse, and so six months
Speaker 1: so fucked up your base, Like these laws basically make
Speaker 1: it so that like you're setting it up to tell
Speaker 1: people like this is basically okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, witness, Yeah, there needs to be a witness to corroborate.
Speaker 2: You need to prove that you're call Like it is
Speaker 2: really fucked up. Now, as I was searching, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of information about this case. But while I was
Speaker 2: searching for information, this case kept coming up, like like
Speaker 2: this other case just kept showing up in Google.
Speaker 3: So of course I had to take a look.
Speaker 2: So this case is the glen Ridge rape case, and
Speaker 2: so I clicked on it and I read one line
Speaker 2: of the case and I remembered a TV movie that
Speaker 2: rocked my world. So Heather Matsarazzo were huge fans on
Speaker 2: this podcast of her work, big part of my childhood.
Speaker 3: She was in Welcome to the.
Speaker 2: Dollhouse, Saved Princess Diaries, and then in this TV movie
Speaker 2: I remember watching called Our Guys, Our Guys, Outrage at
Speaker 2: glenn Ridge. It also has an actor from an SVU
Speaker 2: season three episode called Silence, and it was like murder
Speaker 2: and abuse stuff in the church Eric Stoltz.
Speaker 3: But Eric stult is a huge eighties like icon.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, so some kind of wonderful Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: I just know him from you know, him being like
Speaker 2: in a minister outfit. But wildly his episode is right
Speaker 2: after competence. Competence ended and then silence started, and I
Speaker 2: was researching this and I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 2: So I just felt like that was kind of cool,
Speaker 2: like his face just arrived. So this is what happened
Speaker 2: at this glen Ridge school. So it's a glen Ridge
Speaker 2: is a Jersey suburb of New York and a group
Speaker 2: of young men.
Speaker 3: But they say suburb of New York, but it is
Speaker 3: in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: And I feel like that, like New Jersey, you don't
Speaker 2: even like your cities are a suburb of New York.
Speaker 3: You suck.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's I want to go to the Jersey shore though,
Speaker 2: So a group of young men. I don't think New
Speaker 2: Jersey sucks. I don't like pumping my guests, and I
Speaker 2: like to be there. Okay, So a group of young
Speaker 2: men were there as a seventeen year old girl with
Speaker 2: an IQ of sixty four was sexually abused in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty nine. Do you remember watching this movie or no?
Speaker 3: No, okay.
Speaker 2: So the boys were like the cool guy, best looking, best,
Speaker 2: like very athletic guys, and she was a young girl
Speaker 2: that was really desperate to fit in. So this girl
Speaker 2: was at carter At Park shooting hoops and someone promised
Speaker 2: her a date if she went to the Scherzers Twins
Speaker 2: house that was near the park, and she remembers that
Speaker 2: one of the athletes like put their arm around her,
Speaker 2: and she thought it was like super romantic. But from
Speaker 2: the outside it obviously looks grim as fuck because you know,
Speaker 2: there's so there's thirteen boys that were there, seven stays.
Speaker 2: Six of them got the fuck out of there when
Speaker 2: they realized, like what was gonna go down at these Twins' house. So,
Speaker 2: like a lot of the community, there was a lot
Speaker 2: of arguing, like the community defended these people.
Speaker 3: This will be we'll get into it.
Speaker 2: But like a lot of the community was not only
Speaker 2: pissed at the assailants, but like all these boys who
Speaker 2: did nothing about it, Like they left, they knew it
Speaker 2: was fucked up, but didn't do shit. And yet they's
Speaker 2: celebrated members of the community and time and time again,
Speaker 2: you know, we use nonsensical evidence to judge people and
Speaker 2: like say that they couldn't commit a crime just because
Speaker 2: someone's good at baseball and.
Speaker 3: Has good grades. Yeah, yea yeah.
Speaker 2: For some reason, it's shocking to people that they're rapists.
Speaker 3: Like I don't I.
Speaker 2: Just don't understand. I don't understand that frame of mind. So,
Speaker 2: but this did cause a lot of mess in the community,
Speaker 2: and they keep begging. They're like, there's more to our
Speaker 2: town than this case, and it's like, no, there's not.
Speaker 2: So basically, these boys pushed her to masturbate in front
Speaker 2: of them and perform oral sex and then finally and
Speaker 2: this is what haunted me from the TV movie. So
Speaker 2: this is like what stuck with me for decades. Is
Speaker 2: she was penetrated with a broom handle, and then a
Speaker 2: thirty three inch long baseball bat, and then with a stick.
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, that's all in the movie. Yeah, the baseball
Speaker 2: It's like the camera's like on her face as it's happening,
Speaker 2: and all these guys like I just it was it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And after all.
Speaker 2: This even happened to her, she was just lingering at
Speaker 2: the park waiting for the date that was promise to her.
Speaker 2: The whole thing was if you come do this, you'll
Speaker 2: get to go on a date with this guy. So
Speaker 2: she just continued to wait there. And so obviously when
Speaker 2: it went to the courts, it was the classic like
Speaker 2: it was consensual. So the accused never denied their involvement,
Speaker 2: but their lawyers said that no law was violated and
Speaker 2: no crime committed. But the prosecutors argued that she was
Speaker 2: not able to give consent and she was criminally wronged.
Speaker 2: So the defense argued that she was a slut and
Speaker 2: not a sexual novice, and they even had the new
Speaker 2: Jersey rape shield law lifted so they can use her
Speaker 2: sexual past against her in court. They did all the
Speaker 2: classic es tactics, like boys will be boys. They're like
Speaker 2: she came from a dysfunctional family. The boys were actually
Speaker 2: the victims of all this because their because of their
Speaker 2: hormones and they.
Speaker 3: Were actually vulnerable to her.
Speaker 2: And the defendants had their former high school girlfriend record
Speaker 2: the girl discussed and brag about sex and how she's
Speaker 2: so good at sex. And it's like if this girl
Speaker 2: who reads at a second grade level, she can't name
Speaker 2: like us presidents.
Speaker 3: That was said by the La Times.
Speaker 2: So it's like there's she's truly at a second grade
Speaker 2: level in her brain, and the like all these girls
Speaker 2: from the high school then recorded her being like, I
Speaker 2: love sex and I'm great at sex, but she doesn't
Speaker 2: know how to like.
Speaker 3: Of course, she doesn't know what she's talking about.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, she did have a trouble knowing
Speaker 2: the difference between love and sex, and her parents, counselor's teachers,
Speaker 2: and swim coach were all in on it and had
Speaker 2: been working on this with her. So she was molested
Speaker 2: at the age of twelve for the first time, and
Speaker 2: she could not grasp the idea that her body was
Speaker 2: private and that she had a right to say no.
Speaker 2: And her parents put her on birth control at age
Speaker 2: sixteen because they were scared she was vulnerable to peer
Speaker 2: pressure and a sexual attack. And then the defense, of
Speaker 2: course used this as a reason that she was a
Speaker 2: skink because she was on birth control and these whatever,
Speaker 2: however dysfunctional these parents were, they actually seemed like very
Speaker 2: caring and it was a twenty three week trial. So
Speaker 2: the trial went from nineteen ninety two to ninety three.
Speaker 2: She did take the stand and the prosecutor asked why
Speaker 2: she didn't ask the boys to leave her alone, and
Speaker 2: she said she didn't want to hurt their feelings, and
Speaker 2: she still considered them friends and didn't want to hurt
Speaker 2: er embarrass them. A jury of seven women and five
Speaker 2: men found Christopher Archer, Kevin Schurzer Kyle Scherzer guilty. They
Speaker 2: were convicted of rape March sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, after
Speaker 2: eight days of deliberations. The fourth guy, Bryan Grober, was
Speaker 2: acquitted of the rape but found guilty of third degree conspiracy.
Speaker 2: Two of the others that were indicted pled guilty to
Speaker 2: lesser charges in exchange for their cooperation and then listen
Speaker 2: to this. The other one was a son of a
Speaker 2: glen Ridge police officer who investigated the case, So he
Speaker 2: got tried separately and no information about him exists.
Speaker 3: Oh, we don't even know if he got busted or not. Nope.
Speaker 1: Oh he Kathleen Stabler that shit, yep, yep.
Speaker 3: I think he's gonna burn Do.
Speaker 1: You think that kid's dad's gonna burn his license at
Speaker 1: a pizzeria?
Speaker 2: In a few weeks, Archer and Kevin Schurzer were ordered
Speaker 2: to serve a fifteen year term. Kyle Schurzer was sentenced
Speaker 2: to serve seven years and they all kept appealing and
Speaker 2: fighting it and wildly. They were allowed to not be
Speaker 2: in jail during the whole time of appeals, and so
Speaker 2: they were found guilty in nineteen ninety three, but they
Speaker 2: did not go to jail until nineteen ninety seven, and
Speaker 2: the original attack was in nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 3: Jesus, And of.
Speaker 2: Course people from the town in school and their friends
Speaker 2: still believe they're good guys who just made a bad
Speaker 2: mistake of putting a baseball bat in a person with
Speaker 2: diminished capacity.
Speaker 3: Jesus, Like, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know how you still defend Like, how do you
Speaker 2: defend someone doing that? I don't understand how you still
Speaker 2: think it's a good person. Okay, the photos of them
Speaker 2: in their suits and haircuts are wild. They don't they
Speaker 2: look like they're thirty seven years old. These are giant teens.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's they served their time. They kept trying
Speaker 2: to appeal. No one cared. Like in nineteen ninety seven
Speaker 2: and two thousand and four, the federal appeals court affirmed
Speaker 2: the conviction since they were not able to show there
Speaker 2: were serious errors in the trial or in the state
Speaker 2: appeals process. And the twins have Twitter and LinkedIn profiles
Speaker 2: and stuff and they're still on the registry. Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but since I don't have Twitter, I couldn't go
Speaker 3: on his.
Speaker 2: Twitter to see what tweets he was tweeting, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: was he there on January sixth?
Speaker 3: We don't know.
Speaker 2: So if you guys want to look it up and
Speaker 2: let us nobody's tweeting and then you can watch that
Speaker 2: movie if you want to. You know, see Heather Matsaratzo.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's obviously not what it was based on.
Speaker 2: But like there's not much information on a net or
Speaker 2: like the court case and this just kept popping up.
Speaker 3: No, but that's interesting too because it is about like
Speaker 3: competence and you know, standing trial and what can be But.
Speaker 2: At that the end of the day, the boys knew
Speaker 2: exactly what they were doing. And this idea that a
Speaker 2: town is still rallying around trying to find goodness in
Speaker 2: these school athletes, like even you put a bat in
Speaker 2: front and like it's so fucked up. People are so
Speaker 2: fucked They just love defending bad men.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can't get enough of it. But let's move
Speaker 1: into our post mortem, baby, since we don't have an
Speaker 1: interview today.
Speaker 3: Well that was an episode. Yeah, sure, was, I mean darkness,
Speaker 3: but I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, what do we think do we think
Speaker 1: Katie and her guy are gonna be okay raising this kid?
Speaker 3: I'm nervous for them. It's so hard. It's so hard.
Speaker 2: Hopefully they'll have all the support they need and they're
Speaker 2: gonna have tons of cash, and that's cash is king, baby, Yeah,
Speaker 2: cash is king.
Speaker 3: Because this is very different.
Speaker 2: But I always think about like, fuck dressing, Like if
Speaker 2: you're an Orthodox Jewish person, like that's hard to dress
Speaker 2: and look like you're wearing a turtleneck a t shirt
Speaker 2: on a skirt.
Speaker 3: But if you're rich, you could put some Tory birch together,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And so I kind.
Speaker 2: Of like this where, yeah it's tough, but you know,
Speaker 2: if we're getting some cash from this millionaire grocery owner.
Speaker 3: I look too. On the way to the I forgot
Speaker 3: to tell you this.
Speaker 1: When I was on the way to the radio studio today,
Speaker 1: I saw two Orthodox guys on lime scooters just breezing
Speaker 1: up Sycamore.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm never like a suit I've decided he right here
Speaker 2: and then in there, I will never be scooting.
Speaker 3: I will never do an electric scooter. I don't care.
Speaker 2: If I'm in Paris and someone's like, come on, I'm
Speaker 2: not doing it.
Speaker 3: Why why are you so anti the danger?
Speaker 2: The day, I don't want to take risks going fast
Speaker 2: through the streets, like I don't need that in my life.
Speaker 2: At night, I'll take I'll take a cab or a walk.
Speaker 2: I don't need it. I don't need it in my life.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a risk that I'm not willing to take.
Speaker 2: I did it one time and it was so fun.
Speaker 1: But I was during the day West Hollywood, quiet streets.
Speaker 1: I wasn't on any major thoroughfairs. I was just on
Speaker 1: little streets and I was high.
Speaker 2: I don't ask myself. It's just like, I'm not. What
Speaker 2: are the things like this?
Speaker 3: Hoverboards? That's not for me? No, that's crazy. I can't those.
Speaker 3: I can't. I don't have that kind of balance. What
Speaker 3: am I? Shawn White? I can't. Oh wait, I have
Speaker 3: a huge sighting.
Speaker 2: My friend and I went to dinner and we saw
Speaker 2: Aaron Paul in a booth with his two daughters or yeah,
Speaker 2: two kids. Just so fucking cute. He was nice, he
Speaker 2: was saying hi to everyone. We're like, does he own
Speaker 2: this place? We googled it. He doesn't, but he's probably
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood. Just he ran into friends. The kids
Speaker 2: were adorable. He was just he was like the mayor
Speaker 2: in All Salmon, looking so lovely and smiley and we love,
Speaker 2: we love Aaron Paul, that Jesse Pinkman, and that came
Speaker 2: together in my mind because Aaron Paul.
Speaker 3: And Sean White are friends.
Speaker 2: Oh they are. They're like in the same friend group.
Speaker 2: Like there's photos of them intermingling on Insta and in
Speaker 2: the documentary, his whole family is with Aaron Paul watching
Speaker 2: it on a big screen like cheering, like they're good friends.
Speaker 3: In the group. Well, they are.
Speaker 2: Friends with Miles Teller and his wife. But that that's worrisome, Timmy.
Speaker 2: I think he's like a maga.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: I think, unfortunately, Whiplash is maga.
Speaker 3: I think let me let me google.
Speaker 1: Mylashes, maga famously whiplash equals maga.
Speaker 2: Miles Teller Republican question mark, is that what I google?
Speaker 2: Miles Teller Republican and gaze that's what my TikTok search. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a bunch of people upset that they found out
Speaker 2: that he's a concern.
Speaker 3: I I don't know.
Speaker 2: It is tough, but he is cool, so that's that's hard.
Speaker 2: But who else is in the friend group? That's the
Speaker 2: only people that I've seen that I am, you know,
Speaker 2: other winter athletes.
Speaker 3: Listen back to this episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just wild that the guys that committed the
Speaker 2: real crime in Jersey like are on LinkedIn, they have Twitter.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 2: It is so weird to me because it is always
Speaker 2: like when when can the rapist move on? And it's like,
Speaker 2: I think pretty quickly, yeah, pretty quickly, although not the
Speaker 2: last big one that they snagged.
Speaker 3: He's going to be.
Speaker 1: His wife just filed for divorce. I don't know he
Speaker 1: was still married to her. She's enough to be you alum, wait,
Speaker 1: what episode is she not? She is the one in
Speaker 1: his in the one who's like you sorry, we're talking
Speaker 1: about Danny Masterson and Phillips, bj you. Phillips is in
Speaker 1: the one.
Speaker 2: Where Vanity's bonfire. It says, yeah, she has.
Speaker 1: Sex with the guy, and like then he's like the
Speaker 1: father of her kid and he's like denying that he
Speaker 1: knows her, and she's like, no, we we had an affair,
Speaker 1: and like he's he's like gaslighting and saying it didn't happen.
Speaker 3: Like that's all I remember, really.
Speaker 2: But there's also another couple missing a baby. It's a
Speaker 2: baby kidnapp from a playground leads to a twisted case
Speaker 2: of Lie's betrayal and infidelity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she like takes the baby back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Her name is Dia Nobuley and that's I always remember
Speaker 1: because the name is so wild. And the guy keeps
Speaker 1: being like, I don't know Dia Noble and it's like
Speaker 1: miss nobul like she has such a weird name.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, not how to say Nobelay? You know her?
Speaker 2: Okay, sir, you're done. I also think there's like an
Speaker 2: actress and she has kind of dainty art like she's weak.
Speaker 3: But she claims that she used a base to murder someone.
Speaker 3: I think it's episode I Helped Guy.
Speaker 2: She's in another one whatever, this episode the other episode Competence.
Speaker 2: That's the one we're on right now today, Kara, do
Speaker 2: you want to take us home?
Speaker 3: Or what give us? So?
Speaker 2: What would Sister Peggy? Yeah, let's get to what if
Speaker 2: you buy our sticker sheets? We have a what would
Speaker 2: Sister peg do? Sticker on it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are available on tour only. At our tours,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of tours exclusive merch, so come
Speaker 1: for the show, stay for the fun, Merchu.
Speaker 3: We are going to do what would say the scene?
Speaker 2: Which employee volunteers to take photos for us?
Speaker 3: And I don't know.
Speaker 2: I've had such an experience with all of them. They
Speaker 2: all have different styles, different strengths.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're so bad at it, and sometimes it's like you.
Speaker 3: Were born to do this.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're so good, and other times it's like, sir,
Speaker 1: have you ever used a camera before?
Speaker 3: You know who was born to do it?
Speaker 2: Fucking Philly Remember that woman at the Philly punchline. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: we were like for John Legend.
Speaker 3: You were obsessed with her.
Speaker 1: You were like, if we get big enough, she's coming
Speaker 1: on tour with us as our permanent photo takeer.
Speaker 3: We love her. Okay.
Speaker 1: This week for our what was Mister Peg New segment?
Speaker 1: You know where we point you guys towards an organization,
Speaker 1: a blog, post, a book, a podcast, something to give
Speaker 1: you more info about what we talked about today, because
Speaker 1: Lord knows we cannot fit it all in. We would
Speaker 1: like to point you to THEARC dot org. Their mission
Speaker 1: is to promote and protect the human rights of people
Speaker 1: with intellectual and developmental disabilities and actively supports their full
Speaker 1: inclusion and participation in the community throughout their lifetimes. They
Speaker 1: advocate for legislation, they hold events, They have tons of
Speaker 1: resources for those interested. You can donate or find out
Speaker 1: more information at the ARC dot org. And that's the
Speaker 1: rc THARC and that's that.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that. I actually know this
Speaker 2: org and it is good. Next week we'll be doing
Speaker 2: Scorched Earth that season thirteen, episode one, Get hip to it.
Speaker 2: That's wow, first episode without Stabler, so that's pretty historic
Speaker 2: Scorched Earth.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Give us a couple stars and live your best and
Speaker 2: thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 3: We love you guys, See you next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email.
Speaker 1: That's messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our producer Kac O'Brien, and to.
Speaker 1: Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner.
Speaker 1: And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Speaker 1: Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody
Speaker 1: at exactly right media
Speaker 3: Dead Be Done