1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contained subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 3: I'm Evet Gentila and I'm Raschia Pecquerrero. This week we 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 3: are talking about the unfortunate death of an infant named 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 3: Ruderius Lott, and then we're going to talk about the 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: trial of his father, Rodriguez Crawford, who was initially convicted 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 3: of killing his own son in twenty thirteen. 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 2: That's right, Rasia. It was believed that Rodriguez had killed 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: his one year old son, and he was given the 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: death penalty. However, there were a number of glaring ish 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: us in his trial, which you know, we'll get too later, 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: but luckily Rodriguez was exonerated. This case gets into another 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: angle on the issue of wrongful conviction, which is why 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: today we are talking with Maurice Shama, a staff writer 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: for The Marshall Project and author of a book about 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 2: the death penalty. 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 3: Yes, and I am incredibly honored to be speaking with 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: Maurice here today in just a bit. But first our 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: producer Trevor is going to take us through today's case. 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 4: He was arrested, tried, and convicted for killing his one 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 4: year old son. He was sentenced to Angla's death row. 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 4: After five years on death row, he is now a 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 4: free man. 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 5: If I were him, I wouldn't be able to sleep at. 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: Night having put an innocent man on death row, and 31 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: he could have very well been executed for that. 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 4: And you send in the sale and they time about 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 4: pen a need on you for some you didn't do, 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 4: and then you lose your son, your child a sight. 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: Roderius Lot was a one year old from Shreveport, Louisiana, 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: who died mysteriously on the morning of February sixteenth, twenty twelve. 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: His parents were Lecendra Lot and Rodrikus Crawford. The night before, 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Crawford had gone to sleep in the same bed as 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: his infant son, but when Rodrikus woke up that morning, 40 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: he found Rodarius unresponsive. Rodrikus's uncle called nine one one, 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: and the operator instructed them to perform CPR and Rhodarius 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: while they waited for help to arrive, but when paramedics 43 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: finally got there, they determined that Rodarius had died. Police 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: officers on the scene sought out Rodrikus for questioning. They 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: discovered that he had an open warrant for marijuana possession. 46 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: In the past. He'd also been arrested for battery and 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: for minor traffic infractions such as driving with his head 48 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: lights off or not wearing a seatbelt. Officers began to 49 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: interrogate Rodrikus, asking him how Rodarius received ruses on his 50 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: head and lip. Rodriquez told them that his son had 51 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: slipped in the bathroom the day before, fell in between 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: the tub and toilet, and hit his head. This account 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: was corroborated by Lekendra, who also mentioned that Rhodarius was 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: showing signs of a cold that day. But that same morning, 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: an autopsy was performed by a police pathologist named James Traylor. 56 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: Trailer determined that the bruises on Rhodarius's lips were the 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: marks of smothering. He also noted that the baby had 58 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: had pneumonia, but decided that the illness wasn't severe enough 59 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: to cause death, but based on Traylor's findings, District Attorney 60 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: Dale Cox charged Rodriquez with homicide and said that he 61 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: would seek the death penalty. Cox was a notoriously strong 62 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: proponent of capital punishment and a highly controversial da known 63 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: for violent, racist, and often dogmatic behaviour. According to The 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: New Yorker, in Caddo Parish, where Crawford was tried, more 65 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: people have been sentenced to death per capita, seventy seven 66 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: percent of them black, than in any other county in 67 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: America between twenty eleven and twenty fifteen. Cox was responsible 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: for more than a third of the death sentences in Louisiana. 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: Before the trial, Cox even went so far as to 70 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: eliminate multiple black citizens from participating in the jury. The 71 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: prosecution built their case on the testimony of pathologist Trailer, 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: who claimed that the bruises found on Rhodarius were indicative 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: of child abuse. They also used the fact that Rodrikus 74 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: was chronically unemployed and a habitual marijuana user in order 75 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: to paint him as an irresponsible father. The defense, however, 76 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: argued that Trayler's report was fraught with mistakes. He mistated 77 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: medical science, telling the jury that Rhoderius's brain had swelled 78 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: as a result of suffocation, which is technically impossible, though 79 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: the brain does well in cases of pneumonia. Despite strong 80 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: testimony from the defense, a jury that consisted of nine 81 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: white people and only three black people found Rodricus guilty 82 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: of murdering Rhoderius. He was given the death penalty and 83 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: spent years on death row. But in twenty fourteen, Crawford's 84 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: lawyers appealed the case to the Louisiana Supreme Court. They 85 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: introduced new medical evidence, including affidavits from numerous scientists, all 86 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: of which said that Rodarius was the victim of bronco pneumonia. 87 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court overturned Crawford's conviction, 88 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: and the following year, Crawford was formally exonerated on all charges. 89 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: And so, why was Rodricus Crawford initially found guilty and 90 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: how does his conviction and eventual exoneration reveal a troubling 91 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: eagerness to enact capital punishment. 92 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: Joining us to talk about this complicated and tragic case 93 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: is Maurice Schima. Maurice is a staff writer for The 94 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: Marshall Project and an award winning author of let The 95 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Lord Sort Them, The Rise and Fall of the Death Pennel. 96 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: He also co founded the Insider Prize contest, which is 97 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: for incarcerated writers, which is sponsored by American Short Fiction 98 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: as well as he is the host of an upcoming 99 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: podcast called Just Say You're Sorry. Maurice, Welcome to Facing Evil. 100 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for being here, Thanks so much for having 101 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: me so Maurice. You know, I always like to start 102 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: with how did you get to this journey? Like why 103 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: are you so passionate and especially about the death penalty. 104 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 5: So shortly after I graduated from college, I was an 105 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 5: intern at a small nonprofit in Austin, Texas that covered 106 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 5: death penalty issues. But it wasn't journalism. It was an 107 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 5: oral history project, which meant that we were doing essentially two, three, four, 108 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 5: even five or six hour interviews with people who had 109 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 5: some connection to the death penalty or the criminal justice system. 110 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 5: More broadly, this was family members of people who had 111 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 5: been murdered, but also family members of people who had 112 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 5: been executed. And it gave me this really deep and 113 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 5: rich sense that one of these cases, when you see 114 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 5: them in the news, there's a lot of people involved, 115 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 5: and all of those people have really complicated, interesting stories 116 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 5: and perspectives on what's happening. And then I realized through 117 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 5: that work that I was interested in journalism, that I 118 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 5: didn't want to go be a lawyer or do some 119 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 5: of the other things that an interest in this topic 120 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 5: may lead you to. And I was interested in other 121 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 5: things too, I was a musician. But that said, I 122 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 5: sort of as an intern at Publications and then as 123 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 5: a staff writer with their Marshall project, really fell down 124 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 5: this rabbit hole of capital punishment because sort of the 125 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 5: extreme version of all of these other issues in the 126 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 5: criminal justice system. So I'm interested in all sorts of issues, 127 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 5: but often a death penalty case will be the sort 128 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 5: of most extreme story that helps you understand or explore 129 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 5: those issues. So, for example, if someone is innocent and 130 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 5: convicted of a crime. There are many people who are 131 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 5: innocent and convicted of crimes, and the reasons for that 132 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 5: can be interesting to explore as a journalist, but a 133 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 5: death penalty case, an execution is typically going to be 134 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 5: the most dramatic version of the stakes of that problem. 135 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 5: So I think I continually returned to these cases because 136 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 5: it was like through the death penalty we can see 137 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 5: a lot of other issues in a really complicated way. 138 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 5: And so that is sort of what brought me into 139 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 5: this topic, and it eventually led to the book about 140 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 5: the death penalty. And then I'm always looking for cases 141 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 5: to cover, and often not just the case itself, but 142 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 5: for what it can tell us about the larger criminal 143 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 5: justice system. 144 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: I love that you walked into it, you know, with 145 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: one type of you know, hat on, so to speak, 146 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 3: but then you have all these different hats that you 147 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 3: wear in telling the story, and it's all humanity, right. 148 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 149 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 5: And I also think another piece of it is having 150 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 5: grown up in Texas, which was the epicenter of the 151 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 5: death penalty. I have memories from being a kid and 152 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 5: executions being in the news. 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: Maurice, can you walk us through, like what is the 154 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: history of the death penalty in this country? 155 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: Like why is Texas the epicenter of it? 156 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll give you the kind of like cliff note version, 157 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 5: because this could be a god I mean, you know, 158 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 5: you could go on and on. So the death penalty 159 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 5: has always existed in the United States. I think we 160 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 5: always think of it as this just feature of our 161 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 5: society and to some extent, but the history is actually 162 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 5: very messy and by messy, I mean at different times 163 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 5: and places people have been very supportive of the death 164 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 5: penalty and very opposed to it, So that largely depends 165 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 5: on where you live. Michigan, for example, where my in 166 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 5: laws live, has not had the death penalty since the 167 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 5: eighteen fifties, and there are many other states. Hawaii, I believe, 168 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 5: has never had it since it's been a state. 169 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think we ever have. Yeah. 170 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 5: We talk about it as an American phenomenon, but it's 171 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 5: actually just within America a very sort of complicated maps. 172 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 5: So like in the seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds, you start 173 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 5: to have a death penalty that grows out of the 174 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 5: history of lynchings, so you have illegal mobs of people 175 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 5: who are killing largely black and Latino Americans, although not exclusively, 176 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 5: and over time this kind of starts to merge with 177 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 5: the more legal version of the death penalty, the version 178 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 5: where people are actually tried in courtrooms. When I was 179 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 5: looking into the history, I found all of these really 180 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 5: terrifying and awful cases from one hundred years ago that 181 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 5: show how the version in the courtroom and the version 182 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 5: of the mob in the courthouse square aren't so far apart. So, 183 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 5: for example, there was a man in Texas who faced 184 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 5: the death penalty and his trial was something like four 185 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 5: hours long, and while he was in the courtroom, he 186 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 5: could hear them constructing the scaffold to hang him outside 187 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 5: the courtroom. Oh my goodness. So that shows you that 188 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 5: the death penalty has always had this relationship to kind 189 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 5: of mob justice, right, but over time it's gotten more 190 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 5: and more folded into law. So by that I mean 191 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 5: legislatures getting involved in saying we're going to write the 192 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 5: rules around who can get the death penalty and who can't. 193 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 5: And this all eventually leads to a point in the 194 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 5: early nineteen seventies that's really kind of key for understanding 195 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 5: the death penalty that we have today. The Supreme Court 196 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 5: rules in nineteen seventy two that all death penalty laws 197 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 5: across America violate the Constitution and basically throws out the 198 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 5: death penalty entirely. It disappears from the map. And then 199 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court says, it's it's the way that it's 200 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 5: being given out. It's not the death penalty itself. So 201 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 5: if you can rewrite your laws, you know, state legislatures, 202 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 5: congress to make it kosher go for it, and the states, 203 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 5: and a lot of states go and write these new 204 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 5: laws that make the death penalty sort of follow what 205 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court wants. And that's really led by the South, 206 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 5: you know Texas where I'm from, Florida, you know, South Carolina, 207 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 5: also some northern states. Ohio brings it back, but across 208 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 5: the country the death penalty kind of returns with a force. 209 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 5: There's almost this like backlash where people are like, how 210 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 5: dare the Supreme Court stop us from having the death penalty? 211 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 5: We want it more. 212 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: Now the pendulum swings, right, It's very much. 213 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 5: A pendulum swing. So then, really the history that I've 214 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 5: spent a lot of my research trying to understand is 215 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 5: starting in the seventies. After that moment, you see this 216 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 5: climb where death sentences, people sentenced to death, the size 217 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 5: of death row executions, all of that rises and rises 218 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 5: throughout the eighties and nineties. It hits sort of a 219 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 5: peak around the year two thousand and then it's been 220 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 5: a long slow slide downward ever since. 221 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's go back to Rodriguez Crawford, who was 222 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, put on death row for killing his son. 223 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: Can you tell us your initial thoughts about this particular case. 224 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 5: Sure, so, just to give the quick summary, Rodriguez Crawford 225 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 5: was arrested for the murder of his son, who was 226 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 5: one years old. They were my understanding is together in 227 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 5: the same bed, not with the son's mother. They were 228 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 5: living separately and sharing, you know, custody of this kid, 229 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 5: and his uncle called nine one one after the child 230 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 5: was not breathing, and the police come in and pretty 231 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 5: quickly a pathologist medical examiner rules the cause of death 232 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 5: to be homicide, whereas Rodriguez Crawford's claim is I woke 233 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 5: up and my son wasn't breathing, And the police and 234 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 5: the District Attorney's office in Caddo Parish, Louisiana decide that 235 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 5: this was a murder, and they pursue the death penalty 236 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 5: against Crawford, and then he is sent to death row, 237 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 5: and on appeal, you know, his lawyers start to look 238 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 5: under the hood of what happened and find that well, 239 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 5: actually it was not a cut and dry murder like that. 240 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 5: The scientific evidence that you see in this medical examiner 241 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 5: report is as much an art as it is a science, 242 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 5: and there are actually studies that show that medical examiners 243 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 5: are sometimes more likely to rule it a murder if 244 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 5: the parent is black as opposed to if they're white. 245 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 5: So there's this subjective subjectivity that racial bias enters into. 246 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 5: And then sort of luckily for Crawford he had good 247 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 5: lawyers on appeal, it appears that he had a pretty 248 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 5: shoddy lawyer at the trial who didn't push back on 249 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 5: the state hard enough. The state also, Shreveport, Louisiana, where 250 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 5: this was happening, is more than half black, but the 251 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 5: I think, only had three black jurors. 252 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: Three out of twelve, Yeah, exactly, and. 253 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 5: That was largely because the prosecutors cut every potential black 254 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 5: jur from the pool, so it wasn't really a jury 255 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 5: of his peers. And so in a lot of ways, 256 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 5: the racial dynamics of this kind of mirror the larger 257 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 5: death penalty. It also feels like no accident that this 258 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 5: was happening in a part of Louisiana that was known 259 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 5: for lynchings historically, that had a severe amount of kind 260 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 5: of racial animosity. And I recall that first learning about 261 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 5: this case from a New Yorker article by Rachel Leviv 262 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,239 Speaker 5: maybe six seven years ago. She's one of my favorite journalists. 263 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 5: So I sort of was reading everything that she wrote 264 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 5: at the time, and I thought she did a really 265 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 5: good job of situating this case in the history and saying, 266 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 5: you know, yeah, it's no accident that Cato Parish, Shreveport, 267 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 5: Louisiana is this epicenter of the death penalty when you 268 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 5: look at the history of lynchings, and often the cities 269 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 5: and counties that are producing a lot of death sentences 270 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 5: have this kind of history. 271 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: Wow, that was going to be my next question, which 272 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: you pretty much just answered it, because I was going 273 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: to be like, well, how common is it for, you know, 274 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: prosecutors to weave this narrative of guilt. 275 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 5: So there are the cases where somebody is definitely guilty 276 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 5: and you can have a debate about whether they deserve 277 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 5: the death penalty based on you know, what we call 278 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 5: in the legal framework mitigating factors like their childhood or 279 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 5: their remorse or whatever. Then you have the cases where 280 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 5: somebody is definitely innocent, was a thousand miles away when 281 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 5: this crime was committed, or the science suggests that there 282 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 5: wasn't a crime at all. But a lot of times 283 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 5: you have this ambiguous situation where you know, Rodriguez Crawford 284 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 5: was in his early twenties. 285 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: I think because a baby himself. 286 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 5: I remember one lawyer telling me about this case and saying, 287 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 5: you know, maybe he's guilty of bad parenting, maybe he 288 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 5: wasn't the best parent, But should you get the death 289 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 5: penalty for that? You know, no, right, Like who among 290 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 5: us has not made mistakes as a parent. Apparently the 291 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 5: child had some bruises that was from falling in the 292 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 5: bath room the day before. You're often as you're looking 293 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 5: at these cases, you're sort of assessing, well, there may 294 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 5: be kind of scientific reasons why they're just actually innocent 295 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 5: of the crime, or there may be some guilts but 296 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 5: not evil intent in the way that the prosecutors are traying. 297 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 5: And often there's kind of a whole spectrum sort of 298 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 5: in between. And it really gives you a kind of 299 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 5: humility about the death penalty because I think we have 300 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 5: this idea. Certainly, I remember culturally, you know, from movies 301 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 5: and TV, getting this idea that the people who are 302 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 5: sentenced to death are Hannibal elector right. It's the sort 303 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 5: of idea we have that it's a bunch of Ted 304 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 5: Bundye psychopath types. And the reality is that many many, 305 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 5: many of them, even when they're guilty of the crime, 306 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 5: which Ridriguez Crawford appears not to be. Even when they 307 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 5: are guilty, it's probably a more ambiguous, trauma filled, very 308 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 5: very tragic situation. It's not somebody who you know, wakes 309 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 5: up one day decides they like killing people and then 310 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 5: like has a glass of red wine at the end 311 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 5: of it, like Hannibal elector. 312 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 4: You know. 313 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 5: It's that that is just so far from real life. 314 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: Got I know, I just think about you know, Rodriguez, 315 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 2: and it's like, I remember the prosecutors were like, well, 316 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: you know, he's living at home with his mom, he 317 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: doesn't have a job, and you know, he has some 318 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: type of thing with marijuana, you know, on his record. 319 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, so that's why you're gonna put 320 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: this young kid on death row. 321 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 5: And it's easier to sell that story when you've staffed 322 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 5: the jury. 323 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: Right, let's talk about that, so we can talk about 324 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: the prosecutor, Rightdale Cox, who is beyond shady, and he 325 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 2: was the one right who had the nine white jurors 326 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: and the three the three black jers. But like, how 327 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 2: do they do that? And is that legal? It just 328 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: seems like that is above the law to me. 329 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 5: So when a jury is selected, you know, you go 330 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 5: into the jury room, there's maybe fifty sixty seventy people, 331 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 5: and each of them answer questions that the prosecutor and 332 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 5: the defense asks them. And one thing that I think 333 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 5: is increasingly the focus of people who who look into 334 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 5: this is that there's a Supreme Court case that says, basically, 335 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 5: it's okay to cut people from the jury if they 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 5: say they could never give the death penalty. So in theory, 337 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 5: this sounds right, because you know, you want a jury 338 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 5: of people who can who say they could give both 339 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 5: of the punishments that are on the table, the death 340 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 5: penalty or life in prison. But practically what that means 341 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 5: is that everybody who is opposed to the death penalty 342 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 5: gets cut, and so all the people that are left 343 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 5: are for the death penalty, and studies have shown that 344 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 5: those people are more likely to find someone guilty and convict. 345 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 5: And so often you see black potential jurors cut from 346 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 5: the pool and they don't get onto the jury because 347 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 5: they say they couldn't give the death penalty. And it's 348 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 5: a cycle where maybe they don't support the death penalty 349 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 5: because they've heard stories like Rodriguez Crawford's right, or their 350 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 5: loved ones have been hassled by the police, or you know, 351 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 5: it's all kinds of reasons they wouldn't support the death penalty. 352 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 5: That make a lot of sense when you think about 353 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 5: black Americans today, but that ends up biasing the juries. 354 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 5: That's like round one, round two. Is that each side. 355 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 5: And this is not true of every state, but it's 356 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 5: true most of the country gets a certain number of 357 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 5: what are called strikes peremptory strikes peremptory just being a 358 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 5: fancy word for you don't have to explain it. And 359 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 5: for years and years and years across the country, prosecutors 360 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 5: were striking black jurors. And I found in my research 361 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 5: this astonishing basically memo guide to prosecutors out of Dallas 362 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 5: from the nineteen sixties, where the prosecutor is basically giving 363 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 5: his peers advice on who to cut from the jury. 364 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 5: And it's not just black citizens, it's also women's And 365 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 5: then there's all these like very like gross claims, like 366 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 5: people who are overweight, you should kick them off the 367 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 5: jury because they're more likely to be sympathetic, or there's 368 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 5: just all of these weird ideas about people. So eventually 369 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court does step in and says you can't 370 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 5: kick people off of a jury just because they're black. 371 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 5: There were some really big scandals related to this, and 372 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court steps in. So then what prosecutors start 373 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 5: doing is saying, well, I'm kicking this person off the jury. 374 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 5: They are black, but I'm kicking them off because X 375 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 5: and this other new reason can feel a little flimsy. 376 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 5: I actually found another prosecutor guide from the early two 377 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 5: thousands that was just like a list of all the 378 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 5: things you can basically say. And one that also sticks 379 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 5: with me is things that are they're not the race 380 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 5: of the person, but they imply the race of the person. So, 381 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 5: for example, did the juror agree with the OJ Simpson verdict? 382 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 5: So both sides ask, remember the O. J. Simpson case? 383 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 5: What did you think of that case? And the person 384 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 5: can say I thought he was guilter, I thought it 385 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 5: was innocent, and we all kind. 386 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: Of know that which way they lean. 387 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 5: There was a tendency among black Americans. It was at 388 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 5: least a stereotype that black Americans thought he was railroaded 389 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 5: and white Americans thought he was guilty, and that can 390 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 5: become a kind of proxy for race, so that the 391 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 5: prosecutors don't have to say they're kicking someone off because 392 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 5: of their race. And so now we're in this situation 393 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 5: where someone like this prosecutor Deale Cox can do this 394 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 5: and often get away with it, and occasionally, when it's 395 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 5: really egregious, the Supreme Court will step in and say, Nope, 396 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 5: this is too far. But there's no real logic to 397 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 5: which cases they pick. 398 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 3: So with everything that you just shared with us, I 399 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 3: would love to know, like, how does one actually overturn 400 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: a death penalty conviction with all of the as our 401 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 3: new friend Jason Flahm likes to call it junk science. 402 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: Is that how you overturn a death conviction or what? 403 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: I know? It's an open ended question. 404 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 5: But no, no, of course, it's one of the many 405 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 5: ways that a death sentence can be overturned. So someone 406 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 5: is sentenced to death and there is a very very 407 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 5: long process of appeal and I won't get into the 408 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 5: history because I don't really know it of how we 409 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 5: got the system that we have because it's so convoluted. 410 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 5: But there's just all of these different rounds where you 411 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 5: go to this court and then this court, and some 412 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 5: of them are state courts and some of them are 413 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 5: federal courts, and pretty much every case goes to the 414 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 5: Supreme Court. Usually the Supreme Court says, no, we're not 415 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 5: going to look at it, but at least as a 416 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 5: matter of like process, it passes by, and usually after 417 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 5: their sense to death, they get a new defense team. 418 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 5: There has definitely been a long standing since among judges 419 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 5: and even the public. I would say that no one 420 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 5: should be executed without access to a lawyer, absolutely, and 421 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 5: over time the standards for how good those lawyers kenon 422 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 5: should be has grown and grown and grown so where 423 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 5: they're often very seasoned and skilled, and typically they do 424 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 5: a new investigation during the appeal, and they typically find 425 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 5: things that become claims. And these claims could be this 426 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 5: person's innocent and there was junk science. And when I 427 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 5: say jump science, I mean sometimes it's like that science 428 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 5: has changed over time. We don't know as much. We 429 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 5: now know more about X than we did in the 430 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 5: seventies or eighties, because again time frames are so long, 431 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 5: and so almost always we know more by the time 432 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 5: of appeal about whatever science. Sometimes we knew all along 433 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 5: that it was bad. Forensic science, and it passed by anyway. 434 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 5: Sometimes the claim is around the science. Sometimes the claim 435 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 5: is that prosecutors did something they shouldn't have, like hid 436 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 5: evidence that they should have given to the defense. Sometimes 437 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 5: it's that they cut blacktures in a way that they 438 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 5: shouldn't have. And then a really common one is what's 439 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 5: called ineffective assistance of counsel, which is the term of 440 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 5: art for the defense. Lawyers did a bad job at 441 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 5: the trial, and did such a bad job that it 442 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 5: violated this guy's constitutional right to a lawyer. So, you know, 443 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 5: we all have a right to a lawyer when we 444 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 5: go to trial. This is like something we all know, 445 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 5: but in death penalty cases you have a right to 446 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 5: a better level of lawyer, you know, with more of 447 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 5: a resume, at least in theory. But in reality often 448 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 5: they don't do a very good job, and so you 449 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 5: see on appeal this comes up. So in Audricus Crawford's case, 450 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 5: I remember reading that his lawyer at the trial, you know, 451 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 5: didn't really do a lot of interviews with witnesses, didn't 452 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 5: apparently do a very good job of challenge challenging the 453 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 5: forensic science. 454 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: Not a lot of pushback, not a. 455 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 5: Lot of pushback, and so that is something you see, 456 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 5: and sometimes it rises to the level of this violated 457 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 5: the guy's constitutional rights. But even when it's not that bad, 458 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 5: often in these appeals, the person is guilty. There's no 459 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 5: real question that they committed the crime. But a huge 460 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 5: version of this that I really could talk for hours 461 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 5: about is the topic of what's called mitigation evidence, which 462 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 5: is when the defense lawyer basically brings up factors that 463 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 5: would convince the jury to not seek it, not give 464 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 5: the death penalty, whether it's the childhood of the person, 465 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 5: the remorse they feel, the good things they've done while 466 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 5: in prison, the fact that they were only nineteen years old, 467 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 5: or whatever it is. And frequently I'm seeing more and 468 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 5: more in these cases. The claim that the lawyers on 469 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 5: appeal make is that at the original trial, the defense 470 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 5: team didn't do this research and they should have, and 471 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court has broadly supported that and said that 472 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 5: you are entitled to this kind of investigation into your childhood. 473 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 5: So I think this has actually been a major reason 474 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 5: why the death penalty is disappearing, because more and more 475 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 5: defense teams do get that human picture and they bring 476 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 5: it in front of the jury. This is like the 477 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 5: case I described in Florida last year that I watched, 478 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 5: so it was subject to the sort of dynamics I've 479 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 5: been talking about, and yet he didn't get the death 480 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 5: penalty because they gave that jury this full human picture 481 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 5: of his life and spared him. 482 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: But how often does that really happen? 483 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 5: Not that often, I want to say. The statistic last 484 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 5: I checked was something like one exoneration from death row 485 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 5: for every nine executions. 486 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: That breaks my heart. 487 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 5: That's a lot of people. And the thing about exonerations 488 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 5: are those guys are lucky in the sense that they 489 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 5: had a defense team come in and do a good 490 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 5: job and convince the courts that they were innocent. But 491 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 5: that just implies that there's more cases we don't know about. Right. 492 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 5: I will occasionally in my work stumble across a case 493 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 5: from twenty years ago that seems really really sketchy and 494 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 5: shoddy and worrisome, and the person was executed, And when 495 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 5: someone is executed, the system generally kind of moves on. 496 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 5: So if this person was innocent and was executed, or 497 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 5: if their constitutional rights were violated in an egregious way 498 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 5: to where they're guilty, but we really would wouldn't in 499 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 5: twenty twenty three feel good about that execution. Those stories 500 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 5: just sort of end up kind of lost in the archive. 501 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: Do we know how many people are on death row 502 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: at this time? 503 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 5: It's around twenty five hundred. 504 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: Wow. 505 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 5: A lot of those are in states like California that 506 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 5: don't actually carry out executions, so those people are effectively 507 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 5: serving a life sentence. And then I don't have the 508 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 5: number of people serving a life sentence just generally though 509 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 5: that number is much much higher. Just to give another 510 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 5: sort of number sense of the situation, between ten and 511 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 5: twenty people are executed a year across the United States. 512 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 5: That number is much lower than it once was. The 513 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 5: number was in the nineties, and then a lot fewer 514 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 5: people are sentenced to death than used to be. I mean, 515 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 5: when Rodriguez Crawford. An element to that case that's worth 516 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 5: mentioning here is that a court overruled death sentence, and 517 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 5: then the district attorney's office was allowed basically to make 518 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 5: a choice like are we going to seek a new 519 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 5: death sentence for him? They were able to it basically 520 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 5: just wiped the death sentence clean. But then there was 521 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 5: still sort of the question of punishment and so that 522 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 5: the district attorney could go for it again. Dale Cox, 523 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 5: the one who had sought that death penalty, I believe, 524 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 5: wasn't in the office anymore. There was a new district 525 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 5: attorney who said, we're not going to seek the death penalty. 526 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 5: We're just going to let I believe drop the charges. 527 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 5: Because eventually Rotricus. 528 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: Was released, right, yeah, yeah, five years. 529 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 5: Often in these cases, if the person isn't innocent, if 530 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 5: they are guilty, the prosecutor will say, we're going to 531 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 5: drop the death penalty and just let you spend the 532 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 5: rest of your life in prison. That is a common 533 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 5: outcome to So when people think about what they can do, 534 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 5: I think the piece of advice that I also give, 535 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 5: regardless of your position, I mean, this is actually a 536 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 5: piece of advice if you support the death penalty too. 537 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 5: It's just to pay attention to who your district a 538 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 5: jorney is. Maybe most of us can't name that person, 539 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 5: but you probably live in a county, and in that 540 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 5: county there is probably a district attorney, and that person 541 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 5: is making the decision about not just whether people face 542 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 5: the death penalty, but also what punishments look like generally, right, 543 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 5: the district attorney has a ton of power, and there's 544 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 5: been a real movement in the last five to ten 545 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 5: years to elect district attorneys that reflect the political diversity 546 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 5: of this country a little more. They tended to be 547 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 5: more conservative than their constituents, and that is less true 548 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 5: today now there's more progressive district attorneys in progressive cities. 549 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 5: And so my advice to people, basically, if you're interested 550 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 5: in sort of thinking about what you can do vicity 551 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 5: the death penalty or just punishment the criminal justice system, 552 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 5: is to learn about the policies of your county district 553 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 5: attorney and whether you agree with them or not. And 554 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 5: if you don't, then you know, vote for someone else. 555 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: That's great advice. Advice. Everybody should know who their district 556 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: attorney is. 557 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 5: Absolutely well, I'm at it, sheriff. Look up your sheriff. Yeah, 558 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 5: that's my other sort of hobby horse is look up 559 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 5: who your sheriff is, because every town has a jail 560 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 5: and there may be people dying in that jail or 561 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 5: being neglected or whatever, and the sheriff is the one 562 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 5: in charge generally, so it's worth paying attention to who 563 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 5: that is. 564 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 2: I got to ask you, you know, I love the 565 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 2: title of your book, by the way, let the Lord 566 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: sort them, especially that first opening, and that seems so 567 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: apropos right to what is actually happening. I mean, do 568 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: you think that as a society we will ever get 569 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: rid of the death penalty? Because it's so split, it's 570 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: so divided, and when you talk about all these different 571 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: people in their stories, everybody has a different perspective, right. 572 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 5: It is hard for me to imagine in America without 573 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 5: any death penalty at all. What I've seen is that 574 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 5: the numbers keep dropping, and even when news events would 575 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 5: seem to stir back, got public support for the death penalty. So, 576 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 5: for example, Donald Trump oversaw thirteen executions in his final months. 577 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 5: A couple of years ago, Oklahoma said it was going 578 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 5: to start executing one person every month. You don't see 579 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 5: a kind of bloodlust among society where a bunch of 580 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 5: people are like, yeah, that sounds great. I mean, there 581 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 5: may be people out there, There may be people who 582 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 5: are more likely to vote for their conservative Republican generally, 583 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 5: you know attorney general, but do most people follow attorney 584 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 5: general races? I don't know. So I think that it's 585 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 5: it's lost a lot of relevance. There's a chance that 586 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 5: could change. You know, Trump still talks about the death penalty. 587 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 5: Ron de Santis, who may run against him in twenty 588 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 5: twenty four, is very pro death penalty and trying to 589 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 5: pass some bills in Florida to make it more of 590 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 5: a thing. But it's hard for me to see it. 591 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 5: But that said, I think there will still always be 592 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 5: these particular, egregious murders that really shock people and create 593 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 5: a kind of thirst for the death penalty. I mean, 594 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 5: I'm not in the business of predicting the future, but 595 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 5: it's easy to see the long, slow slide down of 596 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 5: the death penalty slowly basically disappearing, and yet still a 597 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 5: few kind of big symbolic cases hanging on. One other 598 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 5: thing I'll say is that a lot of states, and 599 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,479 Speaker 5: I could see more of the country going in this direction, 600 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 5: are like California or Pennsylvania, where they have the death 601 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 5: penalty in name but not in reality. 602 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: So they don't actually enact it. 603 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 5: They don't enact it so somebody can be sentenced to death, 604 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 5: they go to death row. I think death row in 605 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 5: California has like five to seven hundred people, but they 606 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 5: haven't executed anybody in years since and have no death 607 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 5: chamber anymore, so we may hold onto the idea of 608 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 5: the death penalty even as we kind of actually let 609 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 5: it go in real life. 610 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 3: I love everything that you're saying, and I know, I know, 611 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 3: as a journalist, like you can't really not that you can't, 612 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 3: but I mean, give your quote unquote opinion, but I 613 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 3: would love to know, like, do you think, personally, or 614 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 3: take off your journalist hat, as a podcaster or as 615 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 3: a human being, as a Texan, do you believe that 616 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 3: the death penalty is ever truly necessary or ethical? And 617 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: I know that's a very, you know, big question, but 618 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 3: I'm just curious how you feel. 619 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 5: So I've spent you know, now, I guess about ten 620 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 5: years more than ten years learning about this, and what 621 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 5: I've realized is how, in some ways I feel like 622 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 5: I was naive to ever think of it as a 623 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 5: moral question. And when I say that, what I mean 624 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 5: is not, of course, it's a moral question of whether 625 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 5: somebody should face the death penalty. But I remember when 626 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 5: I was a kid and we would say, you know, 627 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 5: do you support the death penalty or not? And that 628 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 5: was sort of the big question. In the last ten 629 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 5: years or so, I've come to realize that the question 630 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 5: isn't really does someone deserve the death penalty? It's could 631 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 5: we ever as society create a system that we all 632 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 5: could agree enacts the death penalty in a clear and 633 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 5: moral and just way. So, for example, could we ever 634 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 5: actually create a system as human beings that make sure 635 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 5: that only guilty people get the death pilty or only 636 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 5: the most deserving? And what is even me to be 637 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 5: the most deserving? And so it's in some ways it's 638 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 5: a question about us and whether we I know, Brian Stevenson, 639 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 5: the lawyer, has said, you know, it's not about do 640 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 5: they deserve desire? It's do we deserve to kill? And 641 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 5: that has really stuck with me as I've done this 642 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 5: reporting to say that it's a human system with human beings, 643 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 5: and I have yet to see evidence that we as 644 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 5: a society can pull off a death penalty system that 645 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 5: meets really anybody's definition of justice, much less my own, 646 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 5: Because even people who support the death penalty tend to 647 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 5: take a step back when you show them really clear 648 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 5: evidence of an innocent person who's been executed or almost executed, 649 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 5: or a case like Rodriguez Crawford where there's just so 650 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 5: much ambiguity that it's hard to feel good about that outcome, 651 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 5: even if even if you support the death penalty in theory. 652 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: That's an incredible answer, Maury. Yeah, on facing evil Russia 653 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: and I were always searching for the light in the darkness. 654 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 2: So I'm going to present this question to you. You know, 655 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: in the Rodriguez Crawford case and the Rodarius lot case, 656 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 2: where do you see the light? 657 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 5: So I mean, to me, the light is that Rodriguez 658 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 5: Crawford walked out of prison. He's a freeman and he 659 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 5: can rebuild his life. And he spent years in prison 660 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 5: that he will never get back, years under the sentence 661 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 5: of death, that he will never get back. But I 662 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 5: have often found that people who have been through that 663 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 5: have a lot of wisdom to share as a result 664 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 5: of it. And it's of course up to him whether 665 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 5: he wants to share it. But the men that I 666 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 5: have met on Death Row, both innocent and guilty, and 667 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 5: I've met a lot of them, to a man, have 668 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 5: had something to teach me about the sort of essence 669 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 5: of human nature. And even if those lessons are really dark, 670 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 5: you know, even if they did something horrific and they 671 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 5: regret it, even if they're lying to me, and I 672 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 5: feel like they're lying to me. We're learning from these 673 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 5: people sort of about human psychology in a way that 674 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 5: will in theory help us work as a society towards 675 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 5: less violence, less pains, less crime. So I think Rodriguez Crawford, 676 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 5: if he wants to, could become one of these advocates 677 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 5: who says, you know, I've been to prison, I know 678 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 5: what the guys in prison are going through, and help 679 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 5: sort of humanize both his own circumstances and the circumstances 680 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 5: of others. 681 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 3: I love that, Maurice. We cannot thank you enough for 682 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: being here on Jason Evil and we can't wait to 683 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 3: follow you and listen to your new podcast and all 684 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 3: the things. 685 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, Maurice, appreciate it. 686 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 5: Thank you. 687 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 3: Today we would like to dedicate our emul our message 688 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 3: of hope and healing to the family of rodri Ugus 689 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 3: Crawford and to the family of Lecendra Lot. They both 690 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: lost a beautiful child, young Roderius, way too soon. We 691 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 3: will never be able to comprehend what they went through. 692 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 3: And despite that heartbreak, Rodriguez persevered against all odds to 693 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 3: prove his innocence and was able to get himself off 694 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 3: of death row with the help of so many others. 695 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 3: And to all of the helpers out there who continue 696 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: to fight for the wrongfully convicted, we see you and 697 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 3: we thank you. Onward and upward, Emua emua. 698 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's our show for today. 699 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 3: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 700 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 3: and if there's a case you'd like for us to. 701 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 2: Cover, find us on social media or email us at 702 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 2: facingebl pod at tenderfoot dot tv. 703 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find 704 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: us on night Tunes and give us a good rating 705 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 3: and a good review. If you like what we do, 706 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 3: your support is always cherished. 707 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 2: Until next time, Aloha. 708 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 709 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avet Gentile. 710 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 711 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 712 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay, our executive producers on behalf of 713 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge, 714 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 715 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod tenderfoot 716 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, 717 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,879 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 718 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.