1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Quodydas, but Joseph's gotten more. There's many ways to describe 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: getting older. I guess, you know, people rely upon things like, well, 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, you're you're in a season of life. You're 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: moving from one to the other, you know, everything spring 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: to summer, to fall to winter. 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: Ah. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Then there's people that talk about it in the sense 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: of them personally. I use this term a lot. You know, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: I can't tolerate too many things any longer like I 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: used to could, And I'll always say I'm getting a 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: bit too long in the tooth for that. But you 12 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: know that me saying that is kind of an indicator 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: that I've been down the road for a long long time. 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: I've looked back at my career and I've you know, 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: I've either been working in the field or teaching now 16 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: and get this, y'all for forty one years. It's a 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: long long time. You look back over what you've done 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and you think, wow, what if I accomplished? You look 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: for those benchmarks, You think about those things, and there 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: are people along the way that maybe you didn't treat 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: the way you should have, or maybe there are people 22 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: along the way that you treated really good. And you're 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: never acknowledged, and I'm sure that everybody out there can 24 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: identify with that. But today I'm going to talk about 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: somebody who, for whatever reason, is trying to maybe purge 26 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: themselves of something. Maybe they're trying to get right with 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: good Lord above. But you know, I believe in mercy, 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: but some things, it would seem, are just unforgivable. Today 29 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: we're going to delve in to the life of a 30 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: young lady, a young lady who was killed back in 31 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five. She was killed by guy who became 32 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: known as the Torso Killer. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 33 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: this is Bodybags, Dave. I'm not going to say I've 34 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: been rather contemplative lately, but I have been thinking about 35 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: this kind of unburdening, if you will. And you know, 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: there's an old adage in the law with people making 37 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: deathbed confessions, you know, where they'll the adage. Let me 38 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: see if I can get it right, and I think 39 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: it kind of stems out of British common law. Just 40 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: bear with me, and it goes something like the old 41 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, based on Judea of Christian you know, kind 42 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: of underpinning with the law, the idea that no one 43 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: wants to stand before God with a lie in their 44 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: mouth or go to God, go before God with a 45 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: lie in their mouth. And Dave, I've got to tell you, 46 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: their many lies with this individual. And I personally, I 47 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: don't know what necessarily to believe, because not only do 48 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: you have a butcher, a person that has robbed individuals, families, 49 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the victims themselves of their lives or lives that could 50 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: have been led, You've got a guide that is a 51 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: deceiver and a liar. And he's made a big splash 52 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: in the news just this past week as he has 53 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: been on all these documentaries that have popped up about him. 54 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'm jaded. I begin to think about, well, 55 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: what's the impetus behind all this? You know, what's the 56 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: leverage here? Because I'm always looking for something with a deceiver, 57 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: Dave right, this guy is chief among deceivers. I'd say, all. 58 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: Right, the reason for doing the show today about the 59 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 3: Torso killer Richard Cottingham, is because a nineteen sixty five 60 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: cold case has been solved. It wasn't a case they 61 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: forgot about. It wasn't that it was a case that 62 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 3: just wasn't solved. It was there and it was on 63 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 3: their desks but not solved. Alice Eberhart was only eighteen 64 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: years old. She's a nursing student in far Lawn and 65 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 3: on September twenty fifth, nineteen sixty five, she was murdered. 66 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 3: And the reason we know about this case and the 67 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: reason it was solved was because of Richard Cottingham, the 68 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 3: Torso Killer, also known as the Times Square Ripper. He 69 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: acknowledged that he he is the guy that did it. 70 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: Now Cottingham is not going to be prosecuted for this crime. 71 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: He's in prison for a murder for the rest of 72 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 3: his life. He is seventy nine years old now and 73 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 3: he is pretty much in the prison infirmary. He's not 74 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: expected to go back to a jail cell. You know, 75 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: he's in his miss waning years, in bad health. But 76 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: the admission merely allows the City of Farlan to close 77 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: the case and say, Okay, it's solved, which is fine, 78 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: and I'm hoping the family, actually, you know, you've heard 79 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: Joe and I say, there is no closure. There are 80 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 3: just different seasons and how we deal with things. And 81 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that this allows the family to at least 82 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: accept we now know what happened in terms of who 83 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: did it, and we know who he is based on 84 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: his own activities and what he's done, and that it 85 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: really was an opportunistic murder for him. 86 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: So, you know, the term I like, Dave, and I 87 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: think you'll probably I don't know if you'll agree with 88 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: this or not. I love the term just from a 89 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: scientific standpoint, but I think from a soul standpoint too, 90 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: I love the term healing. That you know healing if 91 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: you've ever had an injury or surgery, you know what 92 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: that progression is like, and there's certain steps along the way. 93 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: If you've got an open sore and you're not having 94 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: any success and this thing has been bothering you, you know, 95 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: for years or months or years or days, that is 96 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: it going to aid in the healing of anything? Because 97 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: you know a lot of the well, many of the 98 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: principles that were ever initially involved in this thing. Isn't 99 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: it interesting? A lot of them have come and gone 100 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: and they've died. But yet here he lingers. You know, 101 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: here he is still among the land of the living. 102 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: And not to you know, diminish what you said about 103 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: him being in the infirmary. 104 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: I don't care. 105 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't care. And here's another 106 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: thing he is not And you're right, he is not 107 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: going to be prosecuted for Alice's homicide. And I think, 108 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: and this happens in other cases as well, where you'll 109 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: get this mass of people that have lost their lives 110 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: and there will only be like two three of those 111 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: select cases that we'll ever see it that the person 112 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: will actually be charged with. And I know, I understand 113 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: the logistics of it and everything, okay, but it's almost 114 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: like a diminishment of those victims who will never have 115 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: their day in court, you know what I'm saying. I 116 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: know he's old and infirmed, and I'm living in a 117 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: fantasy world, but you see how this thing kind of, 118 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: you know, it is kind of it's really cool that 119 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: it's happening, but there's this this thing, this void that's 120 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: left and I think that that's a lot of that 121 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: goes back to the darkness that he's kind of drug 122 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: around all of these years. 123 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 3: You know, I've been thankful you all said healing. I 124 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: am so thankful you came up with that because that 125 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: actually explains what I was trying to play and what 126 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: you've been saying for a long time. It does allow 127 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: for healing. It allows for healing with the family, It 128 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 3: allows for healing with the detectives, It allows for healing 129 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 3: for the community, you know, not having something that's not solved. 130 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: It it's not might might not be top of mind, 131 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: but it's there. 132 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: And I think you're dead on right. 133 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you said that today, making a note 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: because it does allow for some healing to take place. 135 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: And you know, Richard Cottingham, just so you guys know, 136 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: the Torso Killer didn't mean much to me when I 137 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: first saw the article, because, to be honest with you, 138 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: we're talking about a guy who's been in prison since 139 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty, all right, and his murders all happened before then. 140 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: So let's just be honest here. That's, you know, forty 141 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 3: five years ago. He's been in prison all of his crimes. 142 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: So if you're forty and under, you know guy's been 143 00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 3: in prison. 144 00:08:59,120 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: He hasn't, you know. 145 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 3: And so Richard Cottingham was labeled the Torso Killer or 146 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: the Times Square Ripper. And by the way, looking up 147 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 3: the different documentaries that have been done about him in 148 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: the last few years, the way they were labeled entitled 149 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: I would have thought they would have all said the 150 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: Torso Killer or the Times Square Ripper, but nope, not 151 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: even for that consistency in marketing. They were labeled differently 152 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: on different networks. I thought they were different people, but 153 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: they're not the same. 154 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: Well they were. And even even though some people would 155 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: argue that he did commit more, but even if you 156 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: look at burkele Wwitz, you know, burkele Witz, you know, 157 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: went went by a variety and that was media driven. 158 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: You know, you think about, you know, son of Sam, 159 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: what was it the forty four caliber killer? I think 160 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: that they labeled him with. And there have been other 161 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: cases like this where you'll have separate, separate individual. And 162 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: the really weird thing about this is that when you 163 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: begin to dig into the research on all of these desks, 164 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: all of these high homicides, is that because it's divided 165 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: like this, it's hard to take the totality of all 166 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: of them. You know, if if it was under one label, right, 167 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: he would you would? I think that it would really 168 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: make people sit up and realize. And I think that 169 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: probably the Torso Killer stuck because it's it's you know, 170 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: Time Square ripper, you know, is kind but you say 171 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: the Torso killer. And again it goes to the methodologies 172 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: that he employed, you know, as he is, you know, 173 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: taking his victims, and he's got a very very specific methodology, 174 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, throughout his his time out in the world 175 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: where he was contacting people and inflicting all of this 176 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: trauma upon them, methodologies that he employed along the way. 177 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: He he is Dave at his heart, Uh, he's a sadist. 178 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean in the in the purest sense, because he combined, uh, 179 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: not just the ending of lives, but you know, you've 180 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: got an individual that literally would desecrate the dead and 181 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: in life he would inflict trauma upon them, you know. 182 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: The I find it interesting that the woman who actually 183 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: was being attacked where they finally hooked him up on charges, 184 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's only by the grace of God that 185 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: she survived. 186 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: Dave. 187 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: You know, she's in a she's in a hotel room. 188 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: She's screaming out. Uh, you know, a maid I believe 189 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: heard her call out, and and they held him. The local, 190 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: the employees at the hotel, they held him in place 191 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: into the police showed up and when they got there 192 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: and they saw what he had done or attempted to 193 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: do to this woman, they began to fit things together. 194 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: They didn't have the same ability. I think during that 195 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: period of time, you know, we knew at a rudimentary 196 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: level that there are signatures. And right now I'm not 197 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: talking about so much a forensic profile, because that's not 198 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: my area. I'm talking about the nature of the you know, 199 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: down into the heart and soul of the forensics, about 200 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: what would happen, you know, with these victims every single 201 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: time that he went on the hunt. And trust me, 202 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: he's this guy does hunt. I know that that's kind 203 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: of a cliche thing, but he's actively looking for individuals 204 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: and he would he would purposefully work in different types 205 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: of settings. It was not always not always you know, 206 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: in some car, it was not always out in the woods. Dave, 207 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: he he would change his mo to the extent that 208 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: he would go into private residences. These aren't just all 209 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: prostitutes that he's he's taken, you know, these are women 210 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: that are at home by themselves, and you know they're 211 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: one case in particular, you know where he had killed 212 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: this woman in her master bathroom. She leaves behind children 213 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: and a husband, and Dave, that poor husband lived under 214 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: a cloud of suspicion for the remainder of life, and 215 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: was never he never he never appreciated or came to 216 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: the understanding that the person that had killed his wife 217 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: had been incarcerated. There were still people that would, you know, 218 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: offer up cutting glances at him and say, you know, 219 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: in whispers, you know, you know who he was married to, 220 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: you know, those sorts of things. But in the end 221 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: he is behind bars. But it is incumbent upon us 222 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: to explore a little bit more about this individual in 223 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: the horror. The horror that he visited on Long Island, 224 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: in New Jersey perhaps, and in New York, and lord 225 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: only knows where else. Brother David, I'm going to throw 226 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: a bit of a curveball at you. I don't know 227 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: if you know this. Maybe you do. You know that 228 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: there's another Torso killer out there that was that's actually 229 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: in in the vernacular, and that Torso killer, this individual. 230 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: Those cases have never been solved, and there's thirteen of them. 231 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: But the difference is is that these cases happened between 232 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four and nineteen thirty eight and they were 233 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: in Ohio. They also believed that he may have had victims. 234 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: And now get this all the way back in the 235 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: thirties in Pennsylvania, which is not too far of a 236 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: stretch from Ohio's right there, but also in California, thirteen 237 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: victims in that guy was known as the Cleveland Torso 238 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: murderer and Dave. To this day, none of those cases 239 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: have been solved. They've never been able to say that 240 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: this individual did it. There was in everybody that was 241 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: hooked up on the charges and held accountable for this. 242 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: So again we go back with this naming of a 243 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: perpetrator because you want to give them a name. I 244 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: think that it's people desire to do that. They want 245 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: to give somebody a name. So this nom de guere 246 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: has existed, you know, a couple of decades, even before Cottingham, 247 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, burst burst onto the stage. As a matter 248 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: of fact, he was born in forty six, so all 249 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: of those cases that happened before he you know, he 250 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: ever breathed his first breath in life. David Wow. 251 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: We know the serial killer, Richard Cottingham, who called the 252 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 3: Torso killer in the Times, squirrel ripper or whatever. Ten 253 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: murders in New York between nineteen seventy two and nineteen eighty. 254 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: Ten murders in New Jersey between sixty five and seventy eight. Now, 255 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 3: the part about this that was fascinating to me is 256 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 3: his ability to compartmentalize his life. This is the guy 257 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 3: worked as a computer operator with Blue Cross Blue Shield 258 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 3: from nineteen sixty six until his arrest in nineteen eighty. 259 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: He's working on a computer. 260 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, during his time at BCBS. And this is kind 261 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: of interesting. He actually worked with Rodney Alcala. Remember that name. 262 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the guy from Dating The Dating. 263 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: In the Dating Game. 264 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: Oh lord, yeah, and so gild Jim Lang Right, Rodney, 265 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: he's a serial killer in child Molested that was living 266 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 3: in New York at the time as John Berger. Now 267 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: Cottingham and Alkala, we're not aware of each other apparently 268 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 3: until each one was arrested. 269 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 2: And it's oh, dude, I word with them. 270 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: So just I mean, you know what's really really chilling. 271 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: And I think I'm getting this right about a Calla. 272 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: I think a Cala he's the one that had posed 273 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: or was acting as a as a photographer. He's the 274 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: guy where they found all of those images in his 275 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: house of the unnamed victims. Have you ever seen those images? 276 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: And they just go on and there's volumes of these 277 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: things of and they look a lot of them look 278 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: like beach scenes you know, from like Pally, you know, 279 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: back in the seventies where he's just taking random pictures 280 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: of women there and lord only knows how many that 281 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: he's you know, he was actually responsible for. And the 282 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: fact that these two people's lives kind of intersected is 283 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: fascinating to me, fascinating. 284 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 3: You want to break out the math on that one, 285 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 3: you see, what is the possibility? You know, But beyond that, 286 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: we were looking at different things with Cottingham, because I'm 287 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 3: trying to figure out how does somebody, how can they 288 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: separate their life in such a way that they could 289 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 3: have a regular job in an office setting and then 290 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: be this monster? I mean, how is it possible to 291 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: have different sides of the same individual? During his time 292 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: of attack, right in nineteen sixty nine, he was arrested 293 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 3: for a DUI in New York City, which you know, 294 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 3: when you look at how we view DUIs then versus 295 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 3: now got out a fifty dollars fine, you know, Yeah, 296 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: that was it. In nineteen seventy two, he was arrested 297 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 3: for shoplifting at a department store in Paramus, New Jersey. 298 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 3: Now here's the part that got interesting for me from 299 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 3: the overall way we perceive victims and crime. In the 300 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 3: fall of nineteen seventy three, in the midst of his killing, 301 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 3: Sprey Cottingham was arrested in New York City for robbery's 302 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: ode of me sexual assault because the complainant, though, was 303 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: a prostitute and her pimp. The case was dismissed because 304 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 3: the prostitute and pimp did not show up for court. 305 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: Not uncommon, But think about what could have been stopped? 306 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, dude, I was reading over the notes, 307 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: I thought the same thing. It made me reflect back 308 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: to the poem I always quote to my students about details. 309 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: You know, the old the old you know, the old 310 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: poem about you know, for the want of a nail 311 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: shoe was lost, And you think about those little intersections 312 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: in time, the decisions that you make. And granted, the 313 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: pimp and the prostitute had no way of knowing, you know, 314 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: what was going on in the future, right and what 315 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: could have happened because you know they're trying to First off, 316 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: pimps and prostitutes don't want to have anything to do 317 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: with cops. Now, you know how much more so even 318 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: in court, because that puts a big target on them 319 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: and the you know in the world that they're involved in, 320 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: certainly the pimp, because pimp is probably responsible for this. 321 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: I can see him looking at that that woman saying, 322 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: there is no way in holy hell that you're going 323 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: to make this appearance. We will just drop it and 324 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: fade into the darkness at this point in time. And 325 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: but it is I think that it's attributable because you know, 326 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: those were those are really heavy charges, you know that 327 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: they put on him. You know, you've got him, you know, 328 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: engaged in this behavior with a prostitute where they're threatening, uh, 329 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: there's an attack. You know, they're they're charging him what 330 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: was it? 331 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 4: Robbery, saw me, sexual abuse, all these sorts of things, 332 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 4: and therein you can hear kind of some of this 333 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 4: sadistic thing that's coming out. 334 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: And if they had just you know, planted the flag 335 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: right there and gotten him off the streets rather said tale, 336 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: you know you're thinking, well, could could these people have survived? 337 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: Or would he have just been put away for a 338 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: little while and then he would have engaged after that 339 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: work again because they say, you know, I don't know 340 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: that this thing is ever it's insatiable. I think I 341 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: personally think that it is, you know, when you get 342 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: into literally taking a knife. And I've actually had cases 343 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: like this where you have individuals that are victimized, and 344 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: I've had cases where individuals have had the breast cut off, 345 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: hands cut off, these sorts of things. He's got two 346 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: beheadings that he was involved in. And in these cases 347 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: with the beheadings, they've he had two women in the 348 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: room the dig this, both in separate beds, and they 349 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: had both been beheaded. That that's the kind of monster 350 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: that you're talking about with this guy, you know, And yeah, 351 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: go ahead. 352 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 3: There's also fire involved in this. Before I started doing 353 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 3: the show with you, I thought when people did fire, 354 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 3: you know, let their crimes on fire, it was to 355 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 3: destroy evidence. And you talked about how that doesn't actually 356 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 3: do it. But hey, before we move on to that, 357 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 3: I did want to point out that after the prostitute 358 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: and pim don't show up in the fall of seventy 359 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: three to you know, when he's the charges are dropped. 360 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: Six months later, the same thing happened. So six months 361 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: later in nineteen seventy four, in the spring, basically the 362 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: same type of a crime complaint by a prostitute, and 363 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: the case was dismissed when she didn't show up. So 364 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: two times within six months he's charged with the same thing, 365 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: and the end result his charges are dismissed. Now going 366 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: to the nineteen eighty arrest, and this is where Leslie 367 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 3: Ann Odell eighteen years old, Joseph Scott Morgan. I don't 368 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: know how she did. I looked at this and spent 369 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 3: a lot of time on it. I'm trying to figure 370 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 3: out how she was able to save herself. She's with 371 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 3: a very experienced killer, a very experienced man for holding 372 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 3: women against their will and torturing them, and she's able to, 373 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 3: at eighteen years old, save herself. 374 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you dig down into this, Dave. And you 375 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: know I'd mentioned that this victim in particular was screaming 376 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: out and she's you know, people we might use the 377 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: term hero kind of indiscriminately. This was a heroic measure 378 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: on her end. And don't you can't judge her because 379 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: of her lifestyle, all right, in this circumstance, She's a 380 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: human being that's eighteen years old, Dave. All Right, in 381 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: this particular case, you know, he had put he threatened 382 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 1: her with a knife. He's always got a knife with him, 383 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: this guy does because in this goes back to this 384 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: idea of the Torso killer. There's a lot of involved 385 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: in this and sometimes it's very nonspecific, but he would 386 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: attack with a knife. But you know, Dave, most of 387 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: his most of his killings, now get this or not 388 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: at the at the at the hip of a knife blade. 389 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: He would finish people off. These women off by assixiation. 390 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: So that tells you a lot about this individual. Where 391 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: you're introducing a sharp forced weapon into this scenario and 392 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: and you get them, you bring them to the point 393 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: of death. Now he's threatening her, he forces her to 394 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: put or he's threatening her to put on handcuffs and Dave, 395 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: here here's the really horrible part to this. He literally 396 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: bit off one of her nipples. Bit off one of 397 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: her nipples, and that would be something you know that 398 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: you know through an assessment if he did that on 399 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: a deceased victim, we would look for connectivity. He had 400 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: apparently this kind of fascination with breast I think that 401 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: he was he listed that way. Obviously, it goes without 402 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: saying that the breasts are a very sexualized area. You've 403 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: got this individual that is removing breast. He's bitten a breast, 404 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: you know. And this goes to sadism as well, because 405 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: when teeth are applied to a particular area of a 406 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: living person, it can either mean, you know, some people 407 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: have to defend themselves by biting somebody that's trying to 408 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: choke them out or something. But sometimes the teeth can 409 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: actually be used as a means of torture. All right, 410 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: And so he I think that he understood that I 411 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: would like to know. And you know, we've we've talked 412 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: about the how invalid now bite marks are in a 413 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: general sense, With bite marks, you can look at something 414 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: from a qualifying standpoint and say, yeah, this is probably 415 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: a bite mark. But you know, as we've discussed, I 416 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: think on a previous episode, we talked about how you 417 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: cannot necessarily quantitatively say that this is a bite mark 418 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: that ties back to a specific person. That's the rub 419 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: with bite marks. But you can see these kind of 420 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: contoosed areas that are associated with these these linear let's see, 421 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: how can we describe this? There they are little linear 422 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: lacerations that come around that are generated by the teeth, 423 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: where you'll either get this kind of puncture movement that 424 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: goes down into the flesh. The way our mouth is designed, 425 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: you will actually have and people might not understand that, 426 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: but the incisors, which are leading teeth, are actually to incize. Okay, 427 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: you think about slicing a loaf of bread, and our 428 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: canines are canines even back in a primal sense, canines 429 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: are meant for tearing. So once you get past the incisors, 430 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: which you know, you chump like this, and then the canines. 431 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: You watch a dog, you watch a dog, our wolf 432 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: or bear even they will turn their head side to 433 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: side in order to rip away tissue and you'll see 434 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: that manifestation with bite marks. Many times you'll get this 435 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: kind of dragging a braided area. There's also sucking that's 436 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: involved with this, so you'll get many times you'll get 437 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: this kind of gigantic hickey like appearance. That is, most 438 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: of the time it's indicative of a bite mark. And 439 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: the reason this hickey, which is a contusion essentially varies 440 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: from say like a normal pattern like if you're struck 441 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: with like a bludgeon, is because the margins it's framed 442 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: out dave by these little incized areas and these little 443 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: torn areas, these little lacerated areas, that's how you delineate 444 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: between like was this person struck with a head of 445 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: a hammer or is this something else? What are these 446 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: interesting little you know, incized areas all the way around 447 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: or lacerations all the way around with him, I'm fascinated. 448 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated as to these other victims. Did they document 449 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: anything relative to those types of insults to these other victims' bodies? 450 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: Because you have it laid out plainly here. What's what's 451 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: this young woman's name again? I can't reader? 452 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: Leslie Odell? 453 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: And yeah, and one thing that he you mentioned the knife, 454 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 3: you know that he uses it ortrad mechanism as a 455 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: threat and yeah, well he also used a gun, a 456 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: gun that he threatened her with, and that's how we 457 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: got her to I'm going to kill you. You know, he's 458 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 3: got this gun, and he puts the gun under the bed. Well, 459 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: Leslie and Odell, eighteen years old, has been beaten, has 460 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 3: been cut, has had her nipple almost bitten all the 461 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 3: way off. She is just, i mean alive, by the 462 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 3: grace of God. And somehow she's able to get her 463 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 3: hands on that gun and she pulls it up and 464 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: points it at him and pulls the trigger and finds 465 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 3: out the gun's a fake. Yeah, so her one thought 466 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: during all the tour, I'm gonna get the gun. 467 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm gonna get the gun. 468 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 3: She gets the gun, pulls the trigger, finds out it's 469 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: a fake, and then the Torso Killer comes at her 470 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: with the knife. She is mortified, She is scared. Her 471 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 3: one thought that she had. I'm gonna get away the 472 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 3: one thing it's gonna save me, this gun. And she 473 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: screams a blood curdling scream that actually. 474 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: Is heard now. 475 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: I'm sure there were threats to keep her quiet, your gun, 476 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 3: keep you quiet off, shoot in the head, you know. 477 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: And finally, when she realizes that that's not a threat anymore, 478 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: here comes the knife. She screams and alerts everyone in 479 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 3: that hotel, and a lady working in a room down 480 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: comes over and like we got a problem. And that's 481 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 3: how the Torso killer was actually caught. Joseph Scott Morgan. 482 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Dave, I gotta have you, I gotta have 483 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: you say this for me, please, I'm begging you. A trial, 484 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: Odell said something very key in that trial. This is 485 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: a witness, I mean a direct witness where she is 486 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: repeating what was said to her by this perpetrator. He 487 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: was an alleged perpetrator at the time. Of course, this 488 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: winds up being his conviction. Dave, please tell all of 489 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: our friends out there what she said that he said 490 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: to her. 491 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: Understand, Lesley Odell says, while this torture is going on, 492 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: Cottingham tells her, you have to take it. The other 493 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: girls did you have to take it too. You're a 494 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 3: whore and you have to be punished. 495 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: Well, what we do know is that he has been punished, 496 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: or at least in the world of our justice system. 497 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you there's a bit more 498 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: to him, something that we need to explore. That has 499 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: led us to want to lay down this taping to 500 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: talk about this victim and her life and what happened 501 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: to her, and how the fact that he admits to 502 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: killing her also opens a door for other victims out there. 503 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: And are there anymore? Dave? You know, this is a 504 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: world ago. You know, when we think about what exactly 505 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: Cottingham did and Alice who is now in spotlight as 506 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: a result, you know, I dare say that there's not 507 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: too many people that remember Alice, other than the most 508 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: important people, which are her remaining family members, those individuals 509 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: that may have counted her as a friend from all 510 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: those years ago. You think about Alice, she was a 511 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: nursing student, She's probably fresh out high school. She's only 512 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: eighteen years old, Dave, And suddenly, by virtue of this 513 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: animal being incarcerated all these many years, she's resurrected. I mean, 514 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: life is breathed back into her. And I think concurrently 515 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: a lot of these other cases that they didn't necessarily 516 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: know were tied to him, Cottingham rolled over on these days. 517 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: You know, Joe, the. 518 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: Part about this that really sticks with me, and I'm 519 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 3: so glad you labeled a healing because Cottingham has been 520 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 3: in prison since nineteen eighty. He's sitting in there, convicted 521 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: of multiple murders. He ain't getting out, and he knows that, 522 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: but he's still he's not coming forward, he's not volunteering information. 523 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 3: He's sitting in prison, and it's not until he's been 524 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 3: in prison for thirty years that he actually stops claiming 525 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 3: he was framed. I mean, the guy consistently said I 526 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 3: didn't do it, I was framed, and just stringing it 527 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 3: out for the families and everything else, just anything else 528 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 3: he could do to torture. And then he finally starts going, Okay, 529 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: I'll admit some things. 530 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: And so. 531 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 3: The admissions that he has made and the confessions that 532 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 3: he has made. You started off by talking about getting 533 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: things right with God, basically, you know, before we die, 534 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 3: getting those things straight. 535 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's his motive. I don't 536 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: know what is going on. 537 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I do know this that I have a 538 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 3: weird feeling Joe that he might start confessing like Henry 539 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 3: Lee Lucas, Yeah, to. 540 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: Try to hit his legacy. You know. It's like I'm 541 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: I'm hitting the end and nobody knows who I am. 542 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 3: I had to look it up, Joe, I'm in this 543 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 3: business and the Tarso killer I kind of remembered, but 544 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: it was a long time ago, and he realizes that. 545 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 3: So he's had a couple of documentaries and things come 546 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 3: up about him over the last couple of years, spotlights 547 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: on him. But then hey man, just like anything else, 548 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 3: after your documentary runs its course on Netflix or Hulu 549 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 3: or whatever, Yeah, those spotlight fades. Yeah, attention goes away. 550 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 3: So what is one way to get the attention back 551 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 3: call the cops. Hey, man, I got one for you. 552 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 3: I did this. 553 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: Well, you know, you think about the state that he's 554 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: in right now, and you talked about Henry Lee Lucas 555 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: and of course I'm you know, talked about addist tool 556 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: before as well, who made an appearance in my jurisdiction 557 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: when I was working down in New Orleans. Not he 558 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: wasn't killing anybody then. He was on one of these 559 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,959 Speaker 1: government funded trips, you know, where they would bring them around, 560 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: remember when they did that. You know, there are no 561 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: free trips to be had here, and so you have 562 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: to try to understand what his motivation is because he's 563 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: not going to get to put in be put into 564 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: some kind of cherry position or circumstance in as he 565 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: is incarcerated. Maybe they could alleviate a few things for him, 566 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: and he could leverage it by merely saying that, oh yeah, yeah, 567 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, I have knowledge of this. I have knowledge 568 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: of that, and you know, I'd like to, you know, 569 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,479 Speaker 1: kind of clear things up if you will. 570 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: But a question, Joe, Yeah, sure, right. 571 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: One of the things that you've talked about before, killers 572 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 3: keeping trophies, taking trophies from their victims, yep, and we 573 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 3: know that the Torso killer actually did keep trophies, jewelry 574 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: and things. But I was looking at the trials that 575 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 3: he went through in eighty one and eighty two. He 576 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 3: was convicted in those three non fatal assaults. I thought 577 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 3: I was fast like Leslie and O'Dell eighteen years old 578 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 3: when she's attacked and nearly killed and she stands up in. 579 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: Court, she got that guilty verdict. Okay, he was convicted 580 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: of what he did to her. 581 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: Then it was after that that he faced death trials, 582 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 3: murder trials, and that these murders took place between seventy 583 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: nine and eighty And I'm thinking, Joe, we know that 584 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 3: he was active in the years twenty years before that. Yeah, 585 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 3: and you know, but we still come to nineteen seventy nine, 586 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 3: December second, nineteen seventy nine. I remember this case and 587 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 3: you might too, because the sv Ustor TV show they actually, 588 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: you know, they do things, they rip from the headlines 589 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 3: or whatever, and sometimes they'll take a case that happened 590 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 3: years ago and they rewrite it up and put it 591 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 3: in there. This case Joe was featured on there, but 592 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 3: you know, made into a fictionalized version of it. December second, 593 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine, firefighters called to the Travel Lodge motor 594 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 3: Inn after smoke is seen from room four seventeen. Firefighters 595 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 3: find two naked women on separate beds. They had been 596 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 3: brutalized before their death. Their hands were cut off, and 597 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 3: they were both beheaded. Yeah, autopsies revealed both women have 598 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 3: been tortured and sexual assaulted for days while alive. How 599 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 3: can you determine all of that when you've lost the hands, 600 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: you've lost the heads, and I don't think they ever 601 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 3: found any of those, but. 602 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: Well, you know, one of the things that he stated, Dave, 603 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: that Cottingham stated is he did that in order to 604 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: in order to diminish our ability and I say our, 605 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: the forensic science community's ability to get them identified, which 606 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: is so utterly bizarre. Yeah, when you know, when you 607 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: think about that, that you begin to think about, you know, well, 608 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: where did these items where they spirited off to? You know, 609 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: where were the heads? Where were the hands? And he 610 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: had time to think about this day because let's just 611 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: let's understand this. They're saying that with both of these victims, 612 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: you know where the fire department was alerted to. Can 613 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: you imagine being a firefighter. You can roll into this 614 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: room and there's you know, there's flame, and you've got 615 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: two people that are essentially, you know, dead on a 616 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: bed without heads. I can't even I don't even know 617 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: how to take the measure of that. You this torture 618 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: had gone on for days and days on both of 619 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: these women, and the logistics involved in doing this to 620 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: have them and you're in you're in a space where 621 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, because of the level of pain that's being inflicted, 622 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: that there is a high probability that this could be heard. 623 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: We're talking about traveloge motoring, all right, Those walls are 624 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: very very thin, okay, and so let's just say that 625 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: he starts off on day one with and we're not 626 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: even talking about sexual assault here. We're just talking about 627 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: he's got to get them compliant. And one of the 628 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: first things that when you have these cases of people trying, 629 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to get people to submit when maybe a 630 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: threat a physical harm is not sufficient. You're going to 631 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: get bludgeoned, You're going to get hit. Now it might 632 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: be a punch, it might be a kick, whatever the 633 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: case might be. So now that they've been down, you know, 634 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: they're saying that this had gone on for days. Let's 635 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: just look at the bludgeoning, because you can actually read 636 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: that at autopsy, even even with bodies that have been 637 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: subjected to high attempts. Okay, because at a cellular level, 638 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: the cells begin to repair themselves. Okay, it's like anything else. 639 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: You know, our bodies are a wonder. So if you 640 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 1: sustain like a strike, all right, you can see evidence 641 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: that the oldest strike is trying to repair itself. And histologically, 642 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: when we take those samples, and nowadays, when we have 643 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: cases involving involving subjects that have been struck and they 644 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: would have done the same thing back then, I'm sure 645 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: you take sections of the bruises and you have to 646 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: make note of this in the autopsy report. So let's 647 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: just say they've got twenty bruises all over their bodies, 648 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: and some of these might be in different states. To resolve, 649 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: you'll go right down the middle of the contusion and 650 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: lift a bit of this tissue out and you'll label that. Okay, 651 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: you'll label it as and you'll label it as like 652 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: sample one, and on a diagram, like everybody's seen one 653 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: of those anatomical diagrams, we use in the morgue, you 654 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: will have like a shape. Generally, the pathologists will try 655 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: to affect the shape of it with an artistic rendering. 656 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: If you will have seen some that are better than 657 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: the others. But they'll say this is number one, this 658 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: is number two. They'll give a verbal descriptor of that, 659 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, this particular contusion here is dark 660 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: blue in color, all right, Whereas if you come to 661 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: another one that's red, all right, that's newer, okay, and 662 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: so forth and so on, and so you would take 663 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: the measurement of all of these microscopically, because those bits 664 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: of the contoosed area that have been sampled, they'll be 665 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: placed on a slide, and at a cellular level, the 666 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: pathologists can say, okay, this is the oldest one. Okay. 667 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: Now you can't necessarily give a specific order, but you 668 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: can say this grouping is not as fresh as this 669 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: latter grouping that I'm referring to. Okay. And the same 670 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: thing applies to other To other injuries, even stab onins 671 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: and cuts, you'll begin to see resolves. Let's just say 672 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: that somebody takes a knife blade and drags it over 673 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: the surface of the skin of an individual. Well, even 674 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 1: those little edges there are beginning are trying to self repair, 675 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: okay along the way, They're not going to appear the 676 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: same as the one, say, day one is not going 677 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: to appear the same as the one that's that is 678 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: perpetrated on day three. And you would take samples of 679 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 1: that as well, and there's certain things you can see grossly, 680 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: which means with the unaided eye you can see that 681 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: they are in fact resolving, and you go two deeper 682 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: injuries that both of these would you know, would have suffered. 683 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: I think one of the big things for me, you know, 684 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: thinking about this is, you know, he's stating that he's 685 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: trying to do this to keep them from being identified. Dave, 686 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I really wonder the hands in particular. 687 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: I wonder if that was done in life, because that's 688 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: how that's that's how much depravity is involved in this guy. 689 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: And he seems to he seems to escalate throughout his career, 690 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, because in the beginning early on, if you 691 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: go all the way back to those early killings, it 692 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: seems and there's this natural progression you were talking about, 693 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: taking trophies and all this sort of thing. They they 694 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: are like a learning machine, they really are, and how 695 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: they become adept at everything that they're doing. And he's 696 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: changing patterns all the way along, you know, where he's 697 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: killing them, where he's dumping them, all those sorts of things. 698 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: And so you look at you know, when you get 699 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: to this case in the hotel room that's on fire, 700 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: he's already been in it for a while. You know 701 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: by this point in Tom. 702 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 3: Let me give you a really weird one, Joe. Yeah, 703 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 3: I mean not weird, but okay, the third victim. Yeah, 704 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 3: that he was convicted of murdering a woman named Mary 705 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 3: Anne Jean Rayner. She was twenty five. Her body was 706 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 3: discovered at the Seville Hotel in New York City. Cottingham 707 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 3: cut her throat, he removed both breasts, left those on 708 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 3: the headboard of the bed, and then set Rayner's body 709 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,479 Speaker 3: on fire to destroy evidence. But here's the key, Joe. 710 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 3: That happens May fifteenth, nineteen eighty. That's when they found her. 711 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 3: Leslie and O'Dell was seven days later. Oh yeah, one week, 712 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 3: and so Mary Angean Reiner dies one week before Leslie 713 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 3: and O'Dell survives the attack and stops the killer. 714 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: Where would he have gone from there? I think it's 715 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: a big question had she not screamed out the it's 716 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: quite telling, you know, this, this desecration of the body 717 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: with the breast, I think, you know how this guy 718 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: is progressing, progressing rather on this journey that he's on 719 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: with the sadistic behavior, chronically sadistic. What's the purpose of, 720 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, removing the breast and then putting it Well, 721 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: I think a big part of this is the shock 722 00:44:54,280 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: value of it, because I had I remember I had 723 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: a case many years ago where I had a it 724 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: was a drug South American drug game that had killed 725 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: a guy that had shorted them money and they cut 726 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: his testicles off and that's the only injury he had 727 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: on his body. Somebody had held him down and when 728 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: I got to the scene, Dave, his lower torso is 729 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,359 Speaker 1: covered in blood, as you can imagine, and Dave, they 730 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: had taken and dig this. They had taken his testicles 731 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,800 Speaker 1: and set them immediately adjacent to his head, at the 732 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: same level as his eyes, and they'd let him bleed out. 733 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: There were people, of course in this case, they let 734 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 1: him bleed out from this, but there were people holding 735 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: him down while he did this, well, that's sending a message. 736 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: I think the big question with this comeback is we 737 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: have to ask is what message is he trying to send? 738 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: Because you know, at the end of the days, it's 739 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: not that that there's anything noble in drug dealing, but 740 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: for those people that's viewed as a business arrangement. I 741 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 1: think my big question is had he entered into an 742 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: arrangement with the devil? I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 743 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: is Boddy