1 00:00:10,430 --> 00:00:12,650 Speaker 1: How many rocket launches did you see? Yeah, we can 2 00:00:12,690 --> 00:00:18,590 Speaker 1: talk about visiting some of the launches. Boca Chica, Texas 3 00:00:18,610 --> 00:00:21,150 Speaker 1: is at the very southern tip of the state, just 4 00:00:21,210 --> 00:00:25,930 Speaker 1: beyond Brownsville on the Gulf of Mexico. And right on 5 00:00:25,989 --> 00:00:29,950 Speaker 1: the street where Musk's house was, I had this little 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,860 Speaker 1: Airstream trailer, which was a little tough on the laundry, 7 00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: and it's kind of hard to shower. But after a while, 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:42,450 Speaker 1: it made me feel... part of this weird scene that 9 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: here on Earth in this parched scrubland with a few 10 00:00:47,950 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: swamps filled with mosquitoes and these old abandoned tract houses 11 00:00:52,940 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: is the base from which people on planet Earth are 12 00:00:56,660 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: going to get to Mars. And I knew that Musk 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,180 Speaker 1: was going to do the launch of Starship, by far 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,310 Speaker 1: the biggest rocket ever made And he was waiting to 15 00:01:09,370 --> 00:01:13,580 Speaker 1: launch it in Boca Chica. And I'm in the Airstream 16 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:17,660 Speaker 1: trailer at 5 a.m. He's in the house nearby. And 17 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:20,220 Speaker 1: the security guards wake us up and they take us 18 00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:24,899 Speaker 1: to the control room for the countdown. And the countdown 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:31,649 Speaker 1: goes 10, 9, 8. And he nods. And they launch it. 20 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:37,330 Speaker 1: And it goes up for a minute, two minutes. He's 21 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:41,169 Speaker 1: watching it. He runs outside onto the deck, because you 22 00:01:41,209 --> 00:01:45,060 Speaker 1: can see it in the distance, and then runs back inside. 23 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,460 Speaker 1: And finally, after about two and a half minutes, you 24 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:54,180 Speaker 1: start noticing that two of the raptors, and maybe three now, 25 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:58,390 Speaker 1: there's a problem. And they realize it's going to go 26 00:01:58,650 --> 00:02:01,670 Speaker 1: off course, and they have to send a signal to 27 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:03,330 Speaker 1: blow it up over the water. 28 00:02:03,410 --> 00:02:08,250 Speaker 2: Otherwise, it might do something really bad. So... They all look. 29 00:02:08,050 --> 00:02:11,550 Speaker 1: At Musk, and it gives them the signal to blow 30 00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:17,250 Speaker 1: it up. And at the end, he says, okay, here's 31 00:02:17,310 --> 00:02:20,470 Speaker 1: a few things we've learned. Let's see how fast we 32 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:21,410 Speaker 1: can try it again. 33 00:02:27,490 --> 00:02:30,389 Speaker 3: My name's Evan Ratliff, and this is On Musk with 34 00:02:30,430 --> 00:02:35,470 Speaker 3: Walter Isaacson. I'm a journalist and author. And recently I 35 00:02:35,510 --> 00:02:37,630 Speaker 3: met up with Isaacson over a few days in New Orleans. 36 00:02:38,290 --> 00:02:39,530 Speaker 2: Tough assignment, I know. 37 00:02:40,410 --> 00:02:43,220 Speaker 3: Isaacson lives there. It's his hometown and the place he 38 00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: returned to after decades as a big-time reporter and editor 39 00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:49,980 Speaker 3: on the East Coast. Nowadays, he's a biographer of the 40 00:02:50,020 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 3: kind of people who alter the world through the force 41 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:55,740 Speaker 3: of their intellect. He's written about Leonardo da Vinci, Ben Franklin, 42 00:02:56,020 --> 00:03:00,709 Speaker 3: Albert Einstein, the pioneering biologist Jennifer Doudna, and maybe most famously, 43 00:03:01,110 --> 00:03:05,060 Speaker 3: Steve Jobs. When we sat down near Lake Pontchartrain, his 44 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,690 Speaker 3: 600-page biography of Musk had been out for about a month. 45 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,130 Speaker 3: It was a book that launched a thousand hot takes, 46 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:13,410 Speaker 3: not least because Elon Musk is himself a hot take 47 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:16,690 Speaker 3: launching machine. But talking to Isaacson, I wanted to try 48 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:19,890 Speaker 3: to get past the noise, if we could, to understand 49 00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:23,450 Speaker 3: why and how this gargantuan work came about, and to 50 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:26,340 Speaker 3: see with his eyes what wowed him, what shocked him, 51 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,420 Speaker 3: and how he reckoned with a subject who became one 52 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: of the richest and most polarizing men on the planet. 53 00:03:31,530 --> 00:03:34,970 Speaker 3: And who, since the book's release, at times seems determined 54 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:38,430 Speaker 3: to scorch his own legacy by encouraging and even embracing 55 00:03:38,470 --> 00:03:44,060 Speaker 3: the online hate machine. You know, anti-Semitism, conspiracy memes, or 56 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:49,020 Speaker 3: whatever he happens to post about this week. This is 57 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,660 Speaker 3: our first episode of four. And for this one, for 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,860 Speaker 3: a moment, let's try and forget everything you've learned about 59 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,339 Speaker 3: Elon Musk over the last, say, three years. Forget who 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,380 Speaker 3: he is on Twitter. forget his role in Ukraine, or 61 00:04:03,430 --> 00:04:05,750 Speaker 3: whatever you know about his personal life. And think about 62 00:04:05,780 --> 00:04:10,010 Speaker 3: the Musk who helped build the first real online payments company, PayPal, 63 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:14,270 Speaker 3: the first true mass-market electric car, Tesla, and the first 64 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:17,510 Speaker 3: private space company to put humans into orbit with SpaceX. 65 00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:20,770 Speaker 3: Let's look at his better angels, so that when we 66 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:24,210 Speaker 3: talk with Isaacson about his demons, and we will, we'll 67 00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:27,289 Speaker 3: have some ballast, some understanding of why he made such 68 00:04:27,330 --> 00:04:34,190 Speaker 3: an intriguing subject in the first place. Episode 1 genius. So, gentlemen, 69 00:04:34,330 --> 00:04:36,550 Speaker 3: I have coffee going, water ready, bathrooms down the hall, 70 00:04:36,570 --> 00:04:37,010 Speaker 3: I'm rolling. 71 00:04:37,089 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: Alright, you good? Okay. Hi, Walter. It's great to meet you. 72 00:05:00,770 --> 00:05:02,350 Speaker 3: As you can see, I have my copy of the 73 00:05:02,370 --> 00:05:04,890 Speaker 3: book here. So I put little flags in it for 74 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: things I want to talk about. I don't think we're 75 00:05:06,130 --> 00:05:08,060 Speaker 3: going to get to all of these items. 76 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:09,700 Speaker 2: You've read the book better than I have. 77 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:10,339 Speaker 3: Just to say. 78 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: It was good talking one writer to another. This will 79 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:13,299 Speaker 2: be fun. 80 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,580 Speaker 3: Well, let's talk for a second about how you got 81 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 3: on this roller coaster. Could you tell me the story 82 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,679 Speaker 3: of how this book first came about, the first seed 83 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 3: that this book could be possible? 84 00:05:26,260 --> 00:05:30,670 Speaker 1: A mutual friend of mine in Elon Musk, gave me 85 00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:34,049 Speaker 1: a call, Antonio Gracias. He said, you all ought to talk. 86 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: And Musk and I talked for about an hour and 87 00:05:38,060 --> 00:05:39,500 Speaker 1: a half or so on the phone. 88 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:41,660 Speaker 2: And I said a couple of things to him. 89 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,140 Speaker 1: I said, I want to do a book unlike almost 90 00:05:44,339 --> 00:05:47,700 Speaker 1: any other book since Boswell did Dr. Johnson, which is 91 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: I want to be by your side at all times, 92 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,140 Speaker 1: when you're eating, when you're thinking, when you're in a meeting, 93 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:54,870 Speaker 1: when you're with your family. And I want for two 94 00:05:54,930 --> 00:05:59,170 Speaker 1: years to have nothing off-limits. in a very low monotone, 95 00:05:59,190 --> 00:06:02,390 Speaker 1: he goes, okay. And then I go, all right, well, 96 00:06:02,420 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: here's the other thing. I don't want you to have 97 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:07,060 Speaker 1: any control over this book. I'm not even going to 98 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: show it to you before it's published. 99 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: He goes, okay. 100 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:14,980 Speaker 1: So I'm pretty surprised. And I was with a group 101 00:06:15,020 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: of people. I'd gone off to take the phone call. 102 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:19,900 Speaker 1: When I get back, I was talking and all of 103 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: a sudden people say, oh my God, I didn't know 104 00:06:21,380 --> 00:06:21,780 Speaker 1: you would do them. 105 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: I said, what do you mean? 106 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:26,300 Speaker 1: So, well, Elon Musk just tweeted out, Walter is writing 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,590 Speaker 1: my biography. And I thought, oh, dear, I guess I'm 108 00:06:29,630 --> 00:06:30,390 Speaker 1: committed now. 109 00:06:31,620 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: And how did the rhythm of that evolve? Like, how 110 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: did you figure out when you were going to go, 111 00:06:39,580 --> 00:06:41,180 Speaker 3: how many conversations you were going to have? 112 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,430 Speaker 1: Every couple of weeks, I'd say, all right, I'd like 113 00:06:45,460 --> 00:06:48,010 Speaker 1: to come out and I'll spend the next 10 days. 114 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:51,970 Speaker 1: He doesn't have a scheduler because he wanted to keep 115 00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:55,170 Speaker 1: control of his own time. So you never know where 116 00:06:55,190 --> 00:06:59,020 Speaker 1: he's going. We would sometimes do two or three places 117 00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: a day. And so I learned pack everything in one 118 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,180 Speaker 1: overnight bag. Bring lots of T-shirts, black T-shirts. Everybody wears 119 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,060 Speaker 1: black T-shirts. 120 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 3: Oh, so you also got into the black T-shirt mode. 121 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:10,870 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I was like, all right. So I'd 122 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,810 Speaker 1: get four or five black T-shirts, a couple of pairs 123 00:07:13,870 --> 00:07:16,910 Speaker 1: of khakis, and that would be it. It would have 124 00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:19,570 Speaker 1: to be really light. It would have to be something 125 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:22,030 Speaker 1: I'd be carrying with me on the factory line because 126 00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:27,190 Speaker 1: he'd inspect the factory in Fremont. And then he turned 127 00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:29,810 Speaker 1: to the security guard, who was the one person who 128 00:07:30,430 --> 00:07:33,470 Speaker 1: kind of kept things on track. He said, okay, now 129 00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:37,150 Speaker 1: let's go to Cape Canaveral. We'd get in his plane, 130 00:07:37,180 --> 00:07:39,860 Speaker 1: be at Cape Canaveral, then be in Boca Chica or 131 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: in Austin, where he's building the great gigafactory for Tesla. 132 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: So you've got a whole lot of T-shirts and a 133 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: whole lot of underwear, and you're ready to go for 134 00:07:49,580 --> 00:07:53,460 Speaker 1: the ride. And usually after about 10 days of traveling 135 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: with him, out of nowhere, run out of toothpaste and 136 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: maybe underwear, and I'd say, okay, I'm going to take 137 00:07:59,400 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: a break. 138 00:08:00,220 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: Was absolutely everything on the record, or were there times 139 00:08:03,460 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: when some executive from some other part of the company 140 00:08:05,820 --> 00:08:08,500 Speaker 3: or someone tried to say, this is off the record? 141 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,110 Speaker 1: Musk gave out the word that I could be anywhere 142 00:08:12,490 --> 00:08:17,390 Speaker 1: at any time. There were a couple of exceptions that 143 00:08:17,410 --> 00:08:22,750 Speaker 1: were both national security classified briefings. He was talking to 144 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:27,060 Speaker 1: either General Milley or the CIA, in which he said, 145 00:08:27,070 --> 00:08:28,310 Speaker 1: I had to leave the room. 146 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: But there were. 147 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: Times when they would do a meeting, and I would 148 00:08:32,220 --> 00:08:35,939 Speaker 1: know that some of the Tesla executives would ask, you know, 149 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,140 Speaker 1: can Walter step out? For example, when they were deciding 150 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: whether or not to create the $ 25, 000 car that's going 151 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: to try to go after the Toyota Corolla. And he 152 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:50,620 Speaker 1: had wanted not to do it. He wanted to go 153 00:08:50,740 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: leap ahead to the robo-taxi, a car with no steering 154 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,859 Speaker 1: wheels that would be self-driving. And they were trying to 155 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: convince him, no, no, no. He let me stay in 156 00:08:59,340 --> 00:08:59,780 Speaker 1: the meeting. 157 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:03,530 Speaker 3: By the time Isaacson started sitting in on meetings and 158 00:09:03,550 --> 00:09:07,030 Speaker 3: everything else, Musk was the chairman, CEO, or chief technology 159 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:11,050 Speaker 3: officer of four companies. Later, he'd add two more. You've 160 00:09:11,070 --> 00:09:14,150 Speaker 3: probably heard parts of Musk's history, but here's the short version. 161 00:09:14,809 --> 00:09:17,339 Speaker 3: Born in South Africa... He'd started in Silicon Valley back 162 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: in 1995 with a company called Zip2, kind of an 163 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: early map quest he founded with his brother, Kimball, financed 164 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,660 Speaker 3: on his mom's credit cards and fueled by endless meals 165 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 3: at Jack in the Box. After selling Zip2 and buying 166 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,239 Speaker 3: himself a McLaren, he invested much of the money into X.com, 167 00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 3: a financial payments platform that eventually combined with another company 168 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,460 Speaker 3: and became PayPal. Musk's new PayPal partners ousted him from 169 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: the company, but he still emerged fabulously wealthy and endlessly 170 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,170 Speaker 3: connected in the Valley. He then turned that wealth onto 171 00:09:47,210 --> 00:09:52,069 Speaker 3: more grandiose goals. First with SpaceX, a rocket company created 172 00:09:52,110 --> 00:09:55,450 Speaker 3: around Musk's dream of getting humans to Mars. Then Tesla, 173 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: built on the dream of electrifying not just cars, but 174 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: all aspects of our lives. He added a couple of 175 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,660 Speaker 3: other companies, Neuralink and The Boring Company. More recently, he's 176 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:09,260 Speaker 3: launched an AI company, first called XAI, and of course, 177 00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: stuck his head into the Pandora's box that is Twitter. 178 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,340 Speaker 3: Now he's combined both of those under one banner, X. 179 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: It's a staggering amount of companies to own and operate simultaneously. 180 00:10:19,630 --> 00:10:22,530 Speaker 3: And as his plane hopping shows, it's not just board meetings. 181 00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:25,390 Speaker 3: Musk likes to be on factory floors and to take 182 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 3: an active role in the engineering. 183 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: Musk has also a playful side, an inspirational side. And 184 00:10:31,940 --> 00:10:35,420 Speaker 1: he often jokes about toys or things he loves. And 185 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: at one point, he's sitting at his desk at Tesla, 186 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:43,020 Speaker 1: and he's looking at a small car. You know, it's 187 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: made of metal. And he looks at the underside of it. 188 00:10:46,429 --> 00:10:49,330 Speaker 1: And of course, the whole bottom of the car, including 189 00:10:49,390 --> 00:10:52,510 Speaker 1: the axles and the chassis, is just one piece. It's 190 00:10:52,550 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: made of cast metal. And so he keeps showing it 191 00:10:56,740 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: to the designers at Tesla and say, why can't we 192 00:11:00,740 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: just cast the entire underside of the car in one piece? 193 00:11:07,380 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: And it's taking 90, 100, 150, sometimes components that have 194 00:11:10,460 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: to be welded together. And they say, well, there's no 195 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,970 Speaker 1: press big enough to do that. He said, let's start 196 00:11:17,050 --> 00:11:20,870 Speaker 1: calling around. And they call around. And all these companies 197 00:11:20,890 --> 00:11:25,370 Speaker 1: that make presses that can make components or chassis say, no, 198 00:11:25,429 --> 00:11:29,550 Speaker 1: that would be impossible. But one, I think in Italy, says, OK, 199 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:32,490 Speaker 1: we can try it. And they make this huge press 200 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: that can do a half of the chassis and then another. 201 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: And you just have to pull them together. And then eventually, 202 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: when he builds this huge auto factory, Giga Texas, he says, now. 203 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,860 Speaker 2: We're going to do it. in one piece. 204 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,739 Speaker 1: And they build this gigapress. And so the chassis of 205 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,100 Speaker 1: the car of a Tesla is now done in one piece. 206 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,340 Speaker 1: And he did it in a funny way. He didn't 207 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,140 Speaker 1: push people to total distraction. He just kept saying, think 208 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,020 Speaker 1: about it. The laws of physics don't say this is impossible. 209 00:12:10,179 --> 00:12:13,230 Speaker 1: And they keep looking at him like he's crazy. But 210 00:12:13,270 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: then you go to the Austin factory, And you look 211 00:12:16,580 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: at these gigapresses and you say, I get it. That's 212 00:12:21,460 --> 00:12:26,179 Speaker 1: why other companies, GM, getting out of making big EVs, 213 00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:30,090 Speaker 1: other companies can't do it. But that sense of the 214 00:12:30,270 --> 00:12:35,630 Speaker 1: physical properties, the physics, and sort of thinking out of 215 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:38,890 Speaker 1: the box, that was one of the great breakthroughs. 216 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,340 Speaker 3: The other thing that's so interesting about the factory is 217 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,140 Speaker 3: you would think that Musk is just automating, automating, automating. 218 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: And then he had this incident where he kind of discovers, oh, 219 00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: we've over-automated. 220 00:12:50,580 --> 00:12:54,579 Speaker 1: In 2017, when he's having trouble with the battery factory 221 00:12:55,059 --> 00:12:58,420 Speaker 1: that they built in Nevada, he moves there, he sleeps 222 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,730 Speaker 1: on the floor there, he spends months there. And they 223 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,890 Speaker 1: realize at some point that something that they're doing that 224 00:13:05,929 --> 00:13:09,050 Speaker 1: a robot is trying to do is taking too long. 225 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: And he figures out, wait, a human could do this 226 00:13:13,470 --> 00:13:15,890 Speaker 1: much faster. We could just get a big wooden table 227 00:13:16,390 --> 00:13:18,770 Speaker 1: and hire six people, and they could do this three 228 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:22,630 Speaker 1: times as fast. So they run around the factory figuring 229 00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:26,100 Speaker 1: out what machines are really slowing things down rather than 230 00:13:26,140 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: speeding things up. Musk and this cadre around him, and 231 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: they have cans of spray paint, and they're just putting 232 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,870 Speaker 1: big Xs on machines that they're going to have to 233 00:13:36,970 --> 00:13:41,310 Speaker 1: take out. and it's almost like kids playing on the playground, 234 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:44,550 Speaker 1: marking things, and they cut a hole in the wall 235 00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:48,750 Speaker 1: of the factory and drag out some of this excess robotics. 236 00:13:49,429 --> 00:13:51,069 Speaker 2: He still believes in automation. 237 00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:54,230 Speaker 1: He's going to build one of the most automated factories 238 00:13:54,309 --> 00:13:58,110 Speaker 1: in the world, both in Austin, Texas, an assembly line 239 00:13:58,130 --> 00:14:02,410 Speaker 1: for the $ 25, 000 car, and then replicate it in Mexico. 240 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: But he says that was one of his big mistakes. 241 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,550 Speaker 1: He said, We automated at the very beginning of the process. 242 00:14:11,450 --> 00:14:13,330 Speaker 1: That should be the last thing you should do. You 243 00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:19,140 Speaker 1: should only automate after you've simplified the process, questioned every requirement, 244 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: figured out how fast it could be done. 245 00:14:21,780 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: Then you do the automation. 246 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,020 Speaker 3: That story sort of illustrates both the playfulness you describe, 247 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:29,739 Speaker 3: but also the sense that he doesn't seem to care 248 00:14:29,780 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: about sunk costs. Like a lot of people would not 249 00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:35,630 Speaker 3: do that because they've put so much money into those machines. 250 00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:36,170 Speaker 2: You know? Yeah. 251 00:14:37,050 --> 00:14:39,970 Speaker 1: There was a lot of resistance at first because they 252 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:42,350 Speaker 1: put a lot of money and sweat and effort into 253 00:14:42,410 --> 00:14:49,170 Speaker 1: making these robots. But then suddenly they realize that they 254 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:51,250 Speaker 1: should go along. This is going to be interesting. They're 255 00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:56,670 Speaker 1: going to learn something. And even though people sometimes feel 256 00:14:57,590 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: burned out or attacked by Musk, those moments where he 257 00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: turns out to be inspirational and right keep them going. 258 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: After the break, we contemplate the journey to Mars. 259 00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:11,940 Speaker 2: Stay with us. 260 00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:29,970 Speaker 3: Isaacson sees firsthand in his reporting that working for Elon 261 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: Musk is not a picnic, to put it mildly. Words 262 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,330 Speaker 3: like demanding or mercurial are don't even really capture the 263 00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:41,110 Speaker 3: way Musk approaches his employees. We'll get to that in 264 00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:45,140 Speaker 3: episode two. But another thing Walter discovers is that incredibly 265 00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: smart people are happy, even eager, to endure a little 266 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,980 Speaker 3: hardship to work for a visionary. For them, Musk is 267 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 3: an epic adventurer, reconnecting us with a lost sense of 268 00:15:56,220 --> 00:16:00,500 Speaker 3: new frontiers, whether that's a sustainable energy future or deep 269 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: space travel. There is a kind of romantic view of 270 00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:07,950 Speaker 3: space travel, and do you feel like we have lost 271 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,450 Speaker 3: that in general. 272 00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:09,830 Speaker 2: Yeah. 273 00:16:10,830 --> 00:16:14,130 Speaker 1: Musk talks about three or four reasons why he wants 274 00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:17,270 Speaker 1: to get to Mars. But the most inspiring is the 275 00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:22,510 Speaker 1: notion that it's adventure. And he said space is the 276 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:25,300 Speaker 1: ultimate adventure. I mean, there's a kid who read a 277 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:27,980 Speaker 1: lot of comic books when he was a kid. And 278 00:16:28,060 --> 00:16:36,300 Speaker 1: so he's Captain Space. And he says that America somehow 279 00:16:36,830 --> 00:16:39,930 Speaker 1: lost a sense of adventure, and got mired in its 280 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:43,580 Speaker 1: day-to-day problems. Now, we have all sorts of day-to-day problems. 281 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, we can't get a Speaker of the House sometimes. 282 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,100 Speaker 1: We can't get budgets sometimes. We get involved in wars 283 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: we don't know how to get out of sometimes. But 284 00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: he says, you put that in perspective by having a 285 00:16:56,820 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: grander vision. The thing that makes you want to get 286 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,690 Speaker 1: up in the morning, because it's a type of thing 287 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:07,470 Speaker 1: that makes us inspired as a species rather than mired 288 00:17:07,690 --> 00:17:11,090 Speaker 1: in the everydayness. And he says, and if we keep 289 00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:16,570 Speaker 1: our eye on the need to explore space and become spacefaring, 290 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:21,130 Speaker 1: it inspires us not only to do things, but also 291 00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: to do risky things, to know that people are going 292 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,060 Speaker 1: to die on the way to Mars. And it's not 293 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: that he's cavalier about it. But he believes you got 294 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: to take risks and have adventure. He believes it to 295 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,020 Speaker 1: a fault, too much so. But sometimes I think the 296 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: fault with us, the rest of us, might be we've 297 00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: lost a little bit of that taste. 298 00:17:47,020 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 3: And do you buy into the vision? 299 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: Does that connect with you? 300 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,330 Speaker 1: I must admit, I don't connect with his obsessions. that 301 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,730 Speaker 1: the planet Earth may get destroyed in the next 50 302 00:17:58,730 --> 00:18:00,810 Speaker 1: years and AI may destroy it, so we have to 303 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:04,810 Speaker 1: keep consciousness alive by having colonies on Mars. I'm like, 304 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:07,410 Speaker 1: all right, the things I wake up and worry about, 305 00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:10,690 Speaker 1: that's not it. But I do believe we have to 306 00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: try to go to Mars because I believe in the 307 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: adventure of it. When I was a young kid, like 308 00:18:16,619 --> 00:18:20,899 Speaker 1: anybody of my generation, I held my breath as Walter 309 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:27,369 Speaker 1: Cronkite said, 10, 9, 8, It was pad 39A at 310 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:30,370 Speaker 1: Cape Canaveral. I remember visiting it and then going back 311 00:18:30,450 --> 00:18:35,050 Speaker 1: there because Musk now has pad 39A. And those of 312 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:39,910 Speaker 1: us who watched John Glenn get into orbit, who knew 313 00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:44,550 Speaker 1: that countdown and held our breath, we do buy into 314 00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:49,619 Speaker 1: the notion that traveling through space may not have a 315 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,820 Speaker 1: whole lot of utility. It may not be the best 316 00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:58,980 Speaker 1: use of our resources if you're doing a cost-benefit analysis. 317 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 2: But we ought to be doing it. 318 00:19:01,940 --> 00:19:04,619 Speaker 1: And so there's an inspiring side to him as well. 319 00:19:05,740 --> 00:19:08,580 Speaker 1: The only person who can get astronauts from the U.S. 320 00:19:08,619 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: into orbit and then re-land the rocket, no other company, 321 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: no other country has been able to take rockets, get 322 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,830 Speaker 1: things into orbit, and then land them upright and reuse them, 323 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,470 Speaker 1: which is necessary if you're going to get to Mars. 324 00:19:22,210 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: And likewise, No other company was ever coming close to 325 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: getting us to electric vehicles, and he doesn't. So I 326 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:32,110 Speaker 1: wouldn't write about somebody who didn't have both an inspiring 327 00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:36,770 Speaker 1: side and also a mercurial, sometimes dark side. 328 00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:39,669 Speaker 3: Even in the midst of a launch, standing with his 329 00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:42,970 Speaker 3: highest-ranking engineer, with all the pressure of whether the rocket 330 00:19:43,010 --> 00:19:45,389 Speaker 3: will make it into orbit or explode over the ocean, 331 00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:49,429 Speaker 3: Musk can't stop obsessing about his ultimate goal, a colony 332 00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:49,950 Speaker 3: on Mars. 333 00:19:50,540 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: I remember before that launch of Starship, standing on top 334 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,770 Speaker 1: of what's called a high bay. It's about 20 stories high, 335 00:19:58,830 --> 00:20:02,750 Speaker 1: and it's where the rocket can be assembled upright, and 336 00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:06,250 Speaker 1: on a balcony with Mark Jankusa and a few others. 337 00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:11,740 Speaker 1: He's talking about the distant future He's talking about how 338 00:20:11,780 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: can we make 100 of these a year? How many 339 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: houses are we going to need to build between here 340 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,619 Speaker 1: and Brownsville in order to have a workforce that can 341 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,910 Speaker 1: build 100 a year? And they're even talking about how 342 00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:29,990 Speaker 1: they're going to colonize Moors. And I'm thinking, this is insane. 343 00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:35,540 Speaker 1: These people are standing there overlooking the Gulf of Mexico 344 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: in this godforsaken place. And all they can focus on 345 00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:43,740 Speaker 1: is how are we going to get a colony to Mars? 346 00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly this is the most interesting person around today. Now, 347 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: interesting is a word that has many nuances to it. 348 00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:59,490 Speaker 3: Isaacson catalogs how Musk's engineering approach, particularly when it comes 349 00:20:59,510 --> 00:21:02,530 Speaker 3: to both SpaceX and Tesla, involves a kind of first 350 00:21:02,590 --> 00:21:06,670 Speaker 3: principles algorithm, examining each individual piece that makes up a 351 00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 3: rocket or a car, down to the smallest ones, and 352 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: asking whether it's necessary. And if it's necessary, whether it 353 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: can be made more cheaply. Delete, delete, delete, Musk intones. 354 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 3: And you know you've deleted enough when you discover that 355 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:23,830 Speaker 3: you need to add 10% back in. And looking at 356 00:21:23,850 --> 00:21:26,350 Speaker 3: the rockets Musk has sent to the space station while 357 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:29,030 Speaker 3: NASA struggles to get Americans into orbit, or at the 358 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:31,470 Speaker 3: over a million electric cars on the road while the 359 00:21:31,550 --> 00:21:35,250 Speaker 3: auto industry races to catch up, well, the algorithm works, 360 00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:39,620 Speaker 3: no matter what you think of Musk. This, as Isaacson 361 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,889 Speaker 3: portrays it, is a big part of Musk's genius. His 362 00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:47,150 Speaker 3: ability to realize large-scale engineering marvels by focusing his attention 363 00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:50,610 Speaker 3: on the smallest details. But Musk applies the same algorithm 364 00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:54,300 Speaker 3: to safety rules and standard regulations in a way that 365 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 3: critics find alarming. So is Musk just a penny-pinching capitalist 366 00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:02,420 Speaker 3: who flouts sensible guardrails? Or is he a maverick genius 367 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,260 Speaker 3: who blows through other people's cowardice, masking his caution? Or maybe, 368 00:22:07,619 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 3: Isaacson discovers, it can be both. Like in SpaceX's third 369 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: attempt to launch the Falcon 1, their first rocket, they're 370 00:22:14,740 --> 00:22:17,650 Speaker 3: sort of going over the checks and there's this issue 371 00:22:17,690 --> 00:22:22,050 Speaker 3: about fuel sloshing. And I'm wondering if you can describe 372 00:22:22,090 --> 00:22:24,430 Speaker 3: that because then at the end it has an incredible 373 00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:25,530 Speaker 3: kicker to that chapter. 374 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:30,510 Speaker 1: The Falcon 1 was the very first rocket that SpaceX 375 00:22:30,570 --> 00:22:32,780 Speaker 1: built and they shot it off from an island in 376 00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:36,500 Speaker 1: the Pacific. So it was really hard to get to. 377 00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: And the first one blows up. The second one blows up. 378 00:22:41,810 --> 00:22:45,010 Speaker 1: And they make a checklist of all the things you 379 00:22:45,070 --> 00:22:48,470 Speaker 1: have to get right. Then they list 15, 20 of them. 380 00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:51,869 Speaker 1: But Musk is willing to take risks. And he said, 381 00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:54,510 Speaker 1: we're only going to worry about the top 10. And 382 00:22:54,730 --> 00:22:57,690 Speaker 1: one of them is that if the rocket gets high 383 00:22:57,750 --> 00:23:01,830 Speaker 1: enough and the fuel starts to deplete, it'll slosh around 384 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:04,310 Speaker 1: in the chamber. So you got to put little baffles 385 00:23:04,369 --> 00:23:07,969 Speaker 1: in the chamber. that'll prevent it from sloshing around. Well, 386 00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:10,969 Speaker 1: Musk says, that's an extra part. It adds weight. It's 387 00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:14,189 Speaker 1: something we should delete. And he deletes it. Well, the 388 00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:17,889 Speaker 1: rocket goes up, the fuel sloshes, the rocket crashes. 389 00:23:18,450 --> 00:23:19,369 Speaker 2: They had made that. 390 00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:22,609 Speaker 1: Number 11 on the list of things to worry about. 391 00:23:23,010 --> 00:23:25,669 Speaker 1: And he said, from now on, we're including 11 things 392 00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:26,409 Speaker 1: on the list. 393 00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:30,100 Speaker 3: And when he says, next time we're going to do 394 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:32,929 Speaker 3: 11 things, not 10. The rocket has just blown up. 395 00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:35,820 Speaker 3: What's his level of humor around that statement? Is he 396 00:23:35,859 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 3: kind of saying very seriously, we've got to do 11 397 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 3: out of 10? Or is he sort of like, hmm, 398 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:42,780 Speaker 3: 11 out of 10 next time? 399 00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:46,780 Speaker 1: When something really bad happens, he actually becomes the calmest 400 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,889 Speaker 1: and sometimes funny, sometimes making a joke about it, but 401 00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:54,669 Speaker 1: also more determined. When the first three rocket launches of 402 00:23:54,730 --> 00:23:57,629 Speaker 1: SpaceX blow up, they're out of money. 403 00:23:58,210 --> 00:23:59,669 Speaker 3: That could have been it for the company. 404 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:01,290 Speaker 2: That's what they thought. Tesla. 405 00:24:01,730 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: at the end of 2008, had totally run out of money. 406 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,060 Speaker 1: SpaceX had totally run out of money. Both were about 407 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,300 Speaker 1: to shut down. Everybody's waiting to see what's going to happen. 408 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:16,340 Speaker 1: And then he says, we're going to do this. I'm 409 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: going to push all my chips back in, roll the 410 00:24:18,140 --> 00:24:21,179 Speaker 1: dice one more time. And he ends up writing his 411 00:24:21,260 --> 00:24:25,739 Speaker 1: own personal checks, finding more money to try to do 412 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,030 Speaker 1: a fourth launch. The fourth launch is particularly interesting. Because 413 00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:34,930 Speaker 1: they take the rocket from Los Angeles, where it's built 414 00:24:35,010 --> 00:24:38,389 Speaker 1: in the factory, out to this tiny spit of an 415 00:24:38,650 --> 00:24:42,540 Speaker 1: island in the middle of the Pacific. And he's in 416 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,060 Speaker 1: a hurry to get it done. So he allows them 417 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: to charter a cargo plane. And something happens when the 418 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:56,010 Speaker 1: plane starts to descend. The pressure gets up. And the 419 00:24:56,310 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: air inside the rocket starts to collapse. And when they 420 00:25:00,859 --> 00:25:04,050 Speaker 1: get it down to the island, they see that one 421 00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:06,270 Speaker 1: of the tanks is crumpled. They say to Musk, we're 422 00:25:06,290 --> 00:25:08,390 Speaker 1: going to have to bring it back to Los Angeles. 423 00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:11,169 Speaker 1: It's going to take another six months. And he said, no, 424 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:17,210 Speaker 1: fix it here. And that was an enormous risk. That's 425 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,260 Speaker 1: a worse risk than not having slosh baffles. And yet 426 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,540 Speaker 1: on that sandy, hot little island, They work for three weeks, 427 00:25:29,140 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: pushing out the little dance. And then they think, okay, 428 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:36,970 Speaker 1: this may never work. But they shoot off the fourth attempt, 429 00:25:37,369 --> 00:25:38,770 Speaker 1: and boom, it gets to orbit. 430 00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:44,090 Speaker 3: Stay with us, because the portrait of Musk's genius is 431 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:57,369 Speaker 3: about to get complicated. Did you develop a kind of 432 00:25:57,930 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 3: philosophy of biography? You know, I've heard you talk about, 433 00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 3: or people have used around you, a kind of camera 434 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 3: metaphor in terms of being a biographer and being a 435 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: camera with subjects who are alive. 436 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,909 Speaker 1: My goal is always to understand the roots of creativity. 437 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:18,350 Speaker 1: And it's not just about being smart, because Steve Jobs 438 00:26:18,530 --> 00:26:23,170 Speaker 1: probably wasn't as conventionally smart as, say, Bill Gates. But 439 00:26:23,369 --> 00:26:26,989 Speaker 1: he was more creative. Same with Leonardo. Even Einstein, who 440 00:26:27,010 --> 00:26:30,990 Speaker 1: was damn smart. What made him different from Poincaré and 441 00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:34,570 Speaker 1: Max Planck and others was that he was creative. So 442 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:39,650 Speaker 1: I try to observe people very carefully and how their 443 00:26:39,710 --> 00:26:43,550 Speaker 1: mind works and say, what is it that makes them, 444 00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: in Steve Jobs' words, think different? And that helps show 445 00:26:50,260 --> 00:26:55,620 Speaker 1: how they fit into history. Because by being creative, history 446 00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:57,180 Speaker 1: is slightly different. 447 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 3: And that doesn't necessarily require that you like them or 448 00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:07,380 Speaker 3: that you think they're a hero. But it does require 449 00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:10,970 Speaker 3: at least a belief that if they weren't there, someone 450 00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:14,169 Speaker 3: wouldn't just slot into their place. I remember reading this 451 00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:16,989 Speaker 3: thing about Warren Buffett. And it was that if there 452 00:27:17,010 --> 00:27:19,220 Speaker 3: wasn't a Warren Buffett, there would be a Warren Buffett. 453 00:27:19,369 --> 00:27:22,369 Speaker 3: Because statistically, someone would make all the right bets and 454 00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:24,929 Speaker 3: they'd become Warren Buffett. It just happens in the market. 455 00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:29,370 Speaker 3: And you could apply a similar notion to these revolutions, 456 00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:31,990 Speaker 3: that the revolution was going to happen, there would be 457 00:27:32,030 --> 00:27:35,590 Speaker 3: a person, it might not be this person. Does that matter? 458 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:41,910 Speaker 1: The people I write about, I believe, mattered. That, yes, 459 00:27:42,190 --> 00:27:47,710 Speaker 1: at some point, people may have figured out special relativity. 460 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:50,940 Speaker 1: Maybe in 50 years they would have tied it together 461 00:27:50,980 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: with general relativity and the curvature of gravity. But because 462 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,300 Speaker 1: Einstein's there and he does both those things as well 463 00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:02,500 Speaker 1: as equals MC squared and many other things, it really 464 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,850 Speaker 1: does change the course of physics. Ford and General Motors 465 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:11,630 Speaker 1: in the early 2000s get out of the electric vehicle business. 466 00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:16,899 Speaker 1: They crush the Chevy Bolt or whatever because they just 467 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,540 Speaker 1: think it's not there. Musk goes bankrupt twice almost with Tesla, 468 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,910 Speaker 1: but he keeps persevering. And now we have moved into 469 00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:29,970 Speaker 1: the era of electric vehicles, and it will look odd 470 00:28:30,450 --> 00:28:33,350 Speaker 1: if you know somebody 10 years from now who's buying 471 00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:39,030 Speaker 1: a car that uses internal combustion engines with extracted fossil fuels. 472 00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:42,340 Speaker 1: And then he's brought us back into the era of 473 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: space adventure. It's the only person who can get astronauts 474 00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:47,820 Speaker 1: from the U.S. into orbit and then re-land the rocket. 475 00:28:48,260 --> 00:28:51,660 Speaker 1: No other company, no other country has been able to 476 00:28:51,740 --> 00:28:54,790 Speaker 1: take rockets, get things into orbit, and then land them 477 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,090 Speaker 1: upright and reuse them, which is necessary if you're going 478 00:28:58,110 --> 00:28:58,890 Speaker 1: to get to Mars. 479 00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:01,570 Speaker 3: And that might have been the story of Musk, the 480 00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:06,090 Speaker 3: mercurial genius pushing us to Mars, ushering in the electrified future. 481 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 3: When Isaacson first hit the ground running back in 2021, 482 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: that's more or less where the story was. 483 00:29:12,510 --> 00:29:16,790 Speaker 1: In some ways, deep inside, I, of course, wish he 484 00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:22,500 Speaker 1: hadn't bought Twitter because I'm not somebody who loves conflict 485 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: and controversy. 486 00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: I like creativity. 487 00:29:25,940 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: And I'm not somebody who likes writing about people who 488 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:35,050 Speaker 1: people really, really hate because it makes it more difficult. However, 489 00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:37,510 Speaker 1: it certainly makes for a better story. 490 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: On the next episode of On Musk, we descend into 491 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: Musk's impulsive side, his preference for drama, his penchant for 492 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 3: lashing out at staff, his personal demons, and of course, 493 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,330 Speaker 3: the fateful decision to jump into Twitter, now X. 494 00:29:57,230 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: Musk turns to his security guard and says, you got 495 00:29:59,420 --> 00:30:03,580 Speaker 1: a pocket knife? It's like rocket engines were simpler to 496 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,820 Speaker 1: him than human emotions. And that's the type of toughness 497 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,110 Speaker 1: that I don't find easy to stomach. 498 00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:16,250 Speaker 2: It really, really turned me off. 499 00:30:16,790 --> 00:30:20,290 Speaker 3: Did he ever turn his anger on you? Did you 500 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 3: experience demon mode directed at you? 501 00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:29,750 Speaker 1: That doesn't excuse all of Musk's behavior. And sometimes we 502 00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:32,870 Speaker 1: confuse explaining something with excusing it. 503 00:30:36,850 --> 00:30:39,630 Speaker 3: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 504 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:42,690 Speaker 3: and iHeart. This show is based on the writing and 505 00:30:42,730 --> 00:30:46,410 Speaker 3: reporting of Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me, Evan Ratliff. 506 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,020 Speaker 3: Produced by Lizzie Jacobs. Assistant production from Serena Chow. Mixing 507 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,510 Speaker 3: and sound design by Rick Kwan. Thomas Walsh did the engineering. 508 00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:58,709 Speaker 3: From iHeart Podcast, the executive producers are Katrina Norvell and 509 00:30:58,830 --> 00:31:03,209 Speaker 3: Ali Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by Mangesh Hetikadur, 510 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:07,610 Speaker 3: with an assist from Oz Wolishan, Kostas Linos, and Kate Osborne. 511 00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:13,290 Speaker 3: Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Conal Byrne, Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, 512 00:31:13,730 --> 00:31:17,690 Speaker 3: Carrie Lieberman, Nathan Otoski, Ali Gavin, and the folks at 513 00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:20,510 Speaker 3: WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio in New Orleans. 514 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,590 Speaker 3: If you like stories about writers and their process, check 515 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:26,310 Speaker 3: out my other show, The Long Form Podcast. If you 516 00:31:26,330 --> 00:31:28,690 Speaker 3: want a story about a different South African programmer who 517 00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:30,969 Speaker 3: became one of the world's biggest criminals, you can check 518 00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:34,310 Speaker 3: out my book, The Mastermind. And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, 519 00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:38,450 Speaker 3: be sure to visit kaleidoscope.nyc. Thanks so much for listening.