1 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: How many rocket launches did you see. 2 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can talk about visiting some of the launches. Bokachika, Texas, 3 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 2: is at the very southern tip of the state, just 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: beyond Brownsville on the Gulf of Mexico and right on 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: the street where Musk's house was. I had this little 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: airstream trailer, which was a little tough on the laundry 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: and it's kind of hard to shower. But after a 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: while it made me feel part of this weird scene 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: that here on Earth, in this parched scrubland with a 10 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: few swamps filled with mosquitoes and these old, abandoned tracked 11 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: houses is the base from which people on planet Earth 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: are going to get to Mars. And I knew that 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: Musk was going to do the launch of Starship, by 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: far the biggest rocket ever made, and he was waiting 15 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: to launch it in Bokachka, And I'm in the airstream 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: trailer at five am. He's in the house nearby, and 17 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: the security guards wake us up and they take us 18 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: to the control room for the countdown, and the countdown 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: goes ten nine eight, and he nods and they launch 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 2: it and it goes up for a minute two minutes 21 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: he's watching it. He runs outside onto the deck because 22 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 2: you can see it in the distance, and then runs 23 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: back inside. And finally, after about two and a half minutes, 24 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: you start noticing that two of the raptors and maybe 25 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: three now there's a problem, and they realize it's going 26 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: to go off course and they have to send a 27 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: signal to blow it up over the water, otherwise it 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: might do something really bad. So they all look at 29 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: Musk and he gives them the signal to blow it up, 30 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: and at the end he says, Okay, here's a few 31 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: things we've learned. Let's see how fast we can try 32 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: it again. 33 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: My name's Evan Ratliffe and this is on Musk with 34 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: Walter Isaacson. I'm a journalist and author and recently I 35 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: met up with Isaacson over a few days in New Orleans, 36 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: tough assignment. I know Isaacson lives there. It's his hometown 37 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: and the place he returned to after decades. Is a 38 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: big time reporter and editor on the East Coast. Nowadays, 39 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: he's a biographer of the kind of people who alter 40 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: the world through the force of their intellect. He's written 41 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: about Leonardo da Vinci, Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein, the pioneering biologist, 42 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: Jennifer DOWDNA, and maybe most famously, Steve Jobs. When we 43 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: sat down near Lake Pontchatrain, his six hundred page biography 44 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: of Musk had been out for about a month. It 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: was a book that launched a thousand hot takes, not 46 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: least because Elon Musk is himself a hot take launching machine. 47 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: But talking to Isaacson, I wanted to try to get 48 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: past the noise, if we could, to understand why and 49 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: how this gargantuan work came about, and to see with 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: his eyes what wowed him, what shocked him, and how 51 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: he reckoned with the subject who became one of the 52 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: richest and most polarizing men on the planet, and who, 53 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: since the book's release, at times seems determined to scorch 54 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: his own legacy by encouraging and even embracing the online 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: hate machine, you know, anti Semitism, conspiracy memes, or whatever 56 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: he happens to post about this week, this is our 57 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: first episode of four, and for this one, for a moment, 58 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: let's try and forget everything you've learned about Elon Musk 59 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: over the last say three years. Yet who he is 60 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: on Twitter. Forget his role in Ukraine or whatever you 61 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: know about his personal life, and think about the musk 62 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: who helped build the first real online payments company, PayPal, 63 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: the first true mass market electric car in Tesla, and 64 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: the first private space company to put humans into orbit 65 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: with SpaceX. Let's look at his better angels so that 66 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: when we talk with Isaacson about his demons, and we will, 67 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: we'll have some ballast, some understanding of why he made 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: such an intriguing subject in the first place, Episode one Genius. So, gentlemen, 69 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: I have a coffee going, water ready, bathrooms down the hall. 70 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 3: I'm rolling. 71 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: All right, you're good, Okay, all right, Walter. It's great 72 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: to you. As you can see. I have my copy 73 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: of the book here, so I put little flags in 74 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: it for things I want to talk about. I don't 75 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: think we're going to get to all of these. 76 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: Item't read the book better than I had, just to say, well, 77 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: it's good talking one writer to another. 78 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: This'll be fun. 79 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk for a second about how you got 80 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: on this roller coaster. Could you tell me the story 81 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: of how this book first came about, the first seed 82 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: that this book could be possible. 83 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: A mutual friend of mine in Elon Musk gave me 84 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: a call Antonio Gracias. He said, you all ought to talk, 85 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: and Mouska and I talked for about hour and a 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: half or so on the phone, and I said a 87 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: couple of things to him. I said, I want to 88 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: do a book unlike almost any other books since Boswell 89 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: did Doctor Johnson, which is, I want to be by 90 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 2: your side at all times, when you're eating, when you're thinking, 91 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: when you're in a meeting, when you're with your family, 92 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: and I want for two years to have nothing off limits. 93 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: In a very low mono, Tony goes, oh, and then 94 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: I go all right, well here's the other thing. I 95 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: don't want you to have any control over this book. 96 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: I'm not even going to show it to you before 97 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: it's published. He goes, okay. So I'm pretty surprised. And 98 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: I was with a group of people. I'd gone off 99 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: to take the phone call. When I get back, I 100 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: was talking and all of a sudden people say, oh 101 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: my god, I didn't know you were doing I said, 102 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: what do you mean, said, well, Elon Musch just tweeted 103 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: out Walter is writing my biography, and I thought, oh, dear, 104 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: I guess, I guess I'm committed now. 105 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: And how did the rhythm of that evolve? Like, how 106 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: did you figure out when you were going to go, 107 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: how many conversations you were going to have? 108 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: Every couple of weeks, I'd say, all right, I'd like 109 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: to come out and I'll spend the next ten days. 110 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: He doesn't have a scheduler because he wanted to keep 111 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: control of his own time, so you never know where 112 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: he's going. We would sometimes do two or three places 113 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: a day, and so I learned pack everything in one 114 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: overnight bag. Bring lots of T shirts, black T shirts. 115 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: Everybody wears black T shirts. 116 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: So you also got into the black T shirt. 117 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I was like, all right, So I'd 118 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: get four or five black T shirts, a couple of 119 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: pairs of khakis, and that would be it. It would 120 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: have to be really light. There have to be something 121 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: I'd be carrying with me on the factory line. Because 122 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: he'd inspect the factory in Fremont, and then he'd turned 123 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: to the security guard, who was the one person who 124 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: kind of kept things on track. It's okay, now let's 125 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: go to Cape Canaveral. We'd get in his plane be 126 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: at Cape Canaveral, then be in Boca Chica or in 127 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: Austin where he's building the great gigafactory for Tasla. So 128 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: you got a whole lot of T shirts and a 129 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: whole lot of underwear, and you're ready to go for 130 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: the ride. And usually after about ten days of traveling 131 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: with them, I'd run out of toothpaste and maybe underwear, 132 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: and I'd say, Okay, I'm gonna take a break. 133 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: Was absolutely everything on the record, or were there times 134 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: when some executive from some other part of the company 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: or someone tried to say this is off the record. 136 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: Musk gave out the word that I could be anywhere 137 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 2: at any time. There were a couple of exceptions that 138 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: were both national security classified briefings she was talking to 139 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 2: either General Millie or the CIA, in which he said, 140 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: I had to leave the room. But there were times 141 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: when they would do a meeting and I would know 142 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: that some of the Teesla executives would ask, you know, 143 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,119 Speaker 2: can Walter step out. For example, when they were deciding 144 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: whether or not to create the twenty five thousand dollars 145 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 2: car that's going to try to go after the Toyota Corolla, 146 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: and he wanted not to do it. He wanted to 147 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: go leap ahead to the Robotaxi, a car with no 148 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: steering wheels that would be self driving, and they were 149 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: trying to convince them. No, no, no. He let me 150 00:08:58,800 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: stay in the meeting. 151 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: By the time Isaacson started sitting in on meetings and 152 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: everything else, Musk was the chairman, CEO, or chief technology 153 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: officer of four companies. Later he'd add two more. You've 154 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: probably heard parts of Musk's history, but here's the short version. 155 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: Born in South Africa, he'd started in Silicon Valley back 156 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five with a company called Zip two, 157 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: kind of an early map quest. He founded with his 158 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: brother Kimball, financed on his mom's credit cards and fueled 159 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: by endless meals at Jack in the Box. After selling 160 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: zip too and buying himself a McLaren, he invested much 161 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: of the money into x dot com, a financial payments 162 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: platform that eventually combined with another company and became PayPal. 163 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: Musk's new PayPal partners ousted him from the company, but 164 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: he still emerged fabulously wealthy and endlessly connected in the Valley. 165 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: He then turned that wealth onto more grandiose goals. First, 166 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: with SpaceX, a rocket company created around Musk's dream of 167 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: getting humans to Mars. Then Tesla built on the dream 168 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: of electrifying not just cars, but all aspects of our lives. 169 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: He added a couple of other companies, Neuralink and the 170 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: Boring Company. Or recently he's launched an AI company first 171 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: called Xai, and of course stuck his head into the 172 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: Pandora's box that is Twitter. Now he's combined both of 173 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: those under one banner X. It's a staggering amount of 174 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: companies to own and operate simultaneously, and as his plane 175 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: hopping shows, it's not just board meetings. Musk likes to 176 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: be on factory floors and to take an active role 177 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: in the engineering. 178 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: Musk is also a playful side, an inspirational side, and 179 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: he often jokes about toys or things he loves. And 180 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: at one point he's sitting at his desk at Tesla 181 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: and he's looking at a small car. You know, it's 182 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 2: made of metal, and he looks at the underside of it, 183 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: and of course the whole bottom of the car, including 184 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: the axles and the chassis, is just one piece. It's 185 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 2: made of cast metal. And so he keeps showing it 186 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: to the designers at Tesla and say, why can't we 187 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: just cast the entire underside of the car in one piece? 188 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: And it's taking ninety one hundred and fifty sometimes components 189 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: that have to be welded together. And they said, well, 190 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: there's no press big enough to do that. He said, 191 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: let's start calling around. And they call around and all 192 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: these companies that make presses that can make components or 193 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: chassis say, no, that would be impossible. But one I 194 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: think in Italy says, okay, we can try it, and 195 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: they make this huge press that can do a half 196 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: of the chassis and then another and you just have 197 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: to pull them together. And then eventually when he builds 198 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: this huge autofactory gigatexas, he says, now we're going to 199 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: do it in one piece, and they build this giga press, 200 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: and so the chassis of the car of a Tesla 201 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: is now done in one piece. And he did it 202 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: in a funny way. He didn't push people to total distraction. 203 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: He just kept saying, think about it. The laws of 204 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: physics don't say this is impossible, and they keep looking 205 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: at him like he's crazy. But then you go to 206 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: the Austin factory and you look at these giga presses 207 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: and you say, I get it. That's why other companies 208 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: gm getting out of making big evs. Other companies can't 209 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: do it. But that sense of the physical properties, the 210 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: physics and sort of thinking out of the box, that 211 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: was one of the great breakthroughs. 212 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: The other thing that's so interesting about the factory is 213 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,119 Speaker 1: you would think that Musk is just automating, automating, automating, 214 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: and then he had this incident where he kind of discovers, oh, 215 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: we've over automated. 216 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, when he's having trouble with the battery 217 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: factory that they've built in Nevada, he moves there, he 218 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: sleeps on the floor that he spends months there, and 219 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: they realize at some point that something that they're doing 220 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: that a robot is trying to do is taking too long. 221 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: And he figures out, wait, a human could do this 222 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: much faster. We could just get a big wooden table 223 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: and hire six people and they could do this three 224 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: times as fast. So they run around the factory figure 225 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: out what machines are really slowing things down rather than 226 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 2: speeding things up. Musk and this cadre around him and 227 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: they have Kansas spray paint, and they're just putting big 228 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: xes on machines that they're going to have to take out, 229 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: and it's almost like kids playing on the playground marking things. 230 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: And they cut a. 231 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: Hole in the wall of the factory and drag out 232 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: some of this excess robotics. He still believes in automation. 233 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: He's going to build one of the most automated factories 234 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: in the world, both in Austin, Texas and assembly line 235 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 2: for the twenty five thousand dollars car, and then replicate 236 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: it in Mexico. But he says that was one of 237 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: his big mistakes. He said, we automated at the very 238 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: beginning of the process. That should be the last thing 239 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: you should do. You should only automate after you've simplified 240 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: the process, questioned every requirement, figured out how fast it 241 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: could be done. Then you do the automation. 242 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: That story sort of illustrates both the playfulness you describe, 243 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: but also the sense that he doesn't seem to care 244 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: about sunk costs, like a lot of people would not 245 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: do that because they've put so much money into those machines. 246 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, there was a. 247 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: Lot of resistance at first because They put a lot 248 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: of money, in sweat and effort into making these robots, 249 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: but then suddenly they realize that they should go along. 250 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: This is going to be interesting. They're going to learn something. 251 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: And even though people sometimes feel burned out or attacked 252 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: by Musk, those moments where he turns out to be 253 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: inspirational and write keep them going. 254 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: After the break, we contemplate the journey to Mars. 255 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: Stay with us. 256 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: Isaac, since he's firsthand and is reporting that working for 257 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: Elon Musk is not a picnic. To put it mildly, 258 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: words like demanding or mercurial don't even really capture the 259 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: way Musk approaches his employees. We'll get to that in 260 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: episode two. But another thing Walter discovers is that incredibly 261 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: smart people are happy, even eager, to endure a little 262 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: hardship to work for a visionary. For them, Musk is 263 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: an epic adventurer, reconnecting us with a lost sense of 264 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: new frontiers, whether that's a sustainable energy future or deep 265 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: space travel. There is a kind of romantic view of 266 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: space travel and do you feel like we have lost 267 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: that in general? 268 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 269 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: Musk talks about three or four reasons he wants to 270 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: get to Mars. But the most inspiring is the notion 271 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: that it's adventure. And he said, space is the ultimate adventure. 272 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a girl who read a lot of 273 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: comic books when he was a kid, and so he's 274 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: Captain Space. And he says that America somehow lost a 275 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: sense of adventure and got mired in its day to 276 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: day problems. Now we have all sorts of day to 277 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: day problems. Who can't get a speaker of the house, 278 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: Sometimes we can't get budgets. Sometimes we get involved in 279 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: wars we don't know how to get out of sometimes, 280 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: but he says, you put that in perspective by having 281 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: a grander vision the thing that makes you want to 282 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: get up in the morning, because it's a type of 283 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: thing that makes us inspired as a species rather than 284 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: mired in the everyday noss And he says, and if 285 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: we keep our eye on the need to explore space 286 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: and become space faring, it inspires us not only to 287 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 2: do things, but also to do risky things. To know 288 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: that people are going to die on the way to Mars. 289 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: And it's not that he's cavalier about it, but he 290 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: believes you got to take risks and have adventure. He 291 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: believes it to a fault too much so, But sometimes 292 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: I think the fault with us, the rest of us, 293 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: might be we've lost a little bit of that taste. 294 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: And do you buy into the vision that that connect 295 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 2: with you? I must admit I don't connect with his 296 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: obsession that the planet Earth may get destroyed in the 297 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: next fifty years, and AI may just so we have 298 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: to keep consciousness alive by having colonies on Mars. I'm like, 299 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: all right, the things I'll wake up and worry about, 300 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 2: that's not it. But I do believe we have to 301 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: try to go to Mars because I believe in the 302 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: inventor of it. When I was a young kid, like 303 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: anybody of my generation, I held my breath. As Walter 304 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: Cronkite said ten nine eight, it was Pad thirty nine 305 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: A at Cape Canaveral. I remember visiting it and then 306 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: going back there because Masks now has paid thirty nine A. 307 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: And those of us who watched John Glenn get into orbit, 308 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: who knew that countdown and held our breath, we do 309 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: buy into the notion that traveling through space may not 310 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: have a whole lot of utility. 311 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: It may not. 312 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: Be the best use of our resources if you're doing 313 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: a cost benefit analysis, but we ought to be doing it, 314 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: And so there's an inspiring side to him as well. 315 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: The only person who can get astronauts from the US 316 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: into orbit and then reland the rocket. No other company, 317 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: no other country, has been able to take rockets, get 318 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: things and then land them upright and reuse them, which 319 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: is necessary if you're going to get to Mars. And likewise, 320 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 2: no other company was ever coming close to getting us 321 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: to electric vehicles, and he does it. So I wouldn't 322 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: write about somebody who didn't have both an inspiring side 323 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: and also a mercurial, sometimes dark side. 324 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: Even in the midst of a launch, standing with his 325 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: highest ranking engineer, with all the pressure of whether the 326 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: rocket will make it into orbit or explode over the ocean, 327 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: Musk can't stop obsessing about his ultimate goal, a colony 328 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: on Mars. 329 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: I remember, before that launch of Starship, standing on top 330 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: of what's called a high bay. It's about twenty stories high, 331 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: and it's where the rock it can be assembled upright, 332 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: and on a balcony with Mark and Cusa and a 333 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: few others. He's talking about the distant future. He's talking 334 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 2: about How can we make a hundred of these a year? 335 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: How many houses are we going to need to build 336 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: between here and Brownsville in order to have a workforce. 337 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: I can build one hundred a year. And they're even 338 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: talking about how they're going to colonize Mores And I'm 339 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 2: thinking this is insane. These people are standing there overlooking 340 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: the Gulf of Mexico in this god forsaken place, and 341 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: all they can focus on is how are we going 342 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: to get a colony to Mars. I mean, clearly, this 343 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: is the most interesting person around today. Now. Interesting is 344 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: a word that has many nuances to it. 345 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: Isaacson catalogs how Musk's engineering approach, particularly when it comes 346 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: to both space and Tesla, involves a kind of first 347 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: principles algorithm, examining each individual piece that makes up a 348 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: rocket or a car down to the smallest ones, and 349 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: asking whether it's necessary, and if it's necessary, whether it 350 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: can be made more cheaply. Delete delete, delete, Musk and tones, 351 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: and you know you've deleted enough when you discover that 352 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: you need to add ten percent back in and looking 353 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: at the rockets. Musk is sent to the Space station 354 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: while NASA struggles to get Americans into orbit, or at 355 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: the over a million electric cars on the road while 356 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: the auto industry races to catch up. Well, the algorithm works. 357 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: No matter what you think of Musk, This, as Isaacson 358 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: portrays it, is a big part of Musk's genius, his 359 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: ability to realize large scale engineering marvels by focusing his 360 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: attention on the smallest details. But Musk applies the same 361 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: algorithm to safety rules and standard regulations in a way 362 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: that critics find alarming. So is Musk just a penny 363 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: pinching capitalist who flouts sensible go guardrails? Where's hee maverick 364 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: genius who blows through other people's cowardice masking as caution, 365 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: or maybe Isaacson discovers it can be both. Like in 366 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: SpaceX's third attempt to launch the Falcon one, their first rocket, 367 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: they're sort of going over the checks and there's this 368 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: issue about fuel slashing, and I'm wondering if you can 369 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: describe that, because then at the end it has an 370 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: incredible kicker to that chapter. 371 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: The Falcon one was the very first rocket that SpaceX built, 372 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: and they shot it off from an island in the Pacific, 373 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: so it was really hard to get to and the 374 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: first one blows up, the second one blows up, and 375 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: they make a checklist of all the things you have 376 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: to get right. Then they list fifteen to twenty of them. 377 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: But Musk is willing to take risks, and he said, 378 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: we're only going to worry about the top ten. And 379 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: one of them is that if the rocket gets high 380 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: enough and the fuel starts to deplete, it'll slash around 381 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: in the chamber. So you gotta put little baffles in 382 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: the chamber that'll prevent it from slashing around. Wellma says, 383 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: that's an extra part. It adds weight. It's something we 384 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: should delete, and he deletes it. Well, the rocket goes up, 385 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: the fuel slashes, the rocket crashes. They had made that 386 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: number eleven on the list of things to worry about, 387 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: and he said, from now on, we're including eleven things 388 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: on the list. 389 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: And when he says next time, we're going to do 390 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: eleven things, not ten, the rocket has just blown up. 391 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: What's his level of humor around that statement. Is he 392 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of saying very seriously, we've got to do eleven, 393 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: not ten, or is he sort of like, hmm, eleven 394 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: not ten. 395 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: Next time when something really bad happens, he actually becomes 396 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: the calmest and sometimes funny, sometimes making a joke about it, 397 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: but also more determined. When the first three rocket launches 398 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 2: of SpaceX blow up, they're out of money. 399 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: That could have been it for the company. 400 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: That's what they thought. Tesla at the end of two 401 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: thousand and eight had totally run out of money. SpaceX 402 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 2: had totally run out of money. Both were about to 403 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: shut down, and everybody's waiting to see what's going to happen. 404 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: And then he says, we're gonna do this. I'm gonna 405 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: push all my chips back and roll the dice one 406 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: more time, and he ends up writing his own personal 407 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: checks finding more money to try to do a fourth launch. 408 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 2: The fourth launch is particularly interesting because they take the 409 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: rocket from Los Angeles, where it's built in the factory, 410 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 2: out to this tiny spit of an island in the 411 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 2: middle of the Pacific, and he's in a hurry to 412 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: get it done, so he allows him to charter a 413 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: cargo plane, and something happens. When the plane starts to descend, 414 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: the pressure gets up and the air inside the rocket 415 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: starts to collapse, and when they get it down to 416 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: the island, they see that one of the tanks is crumpled. 417 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: They say to Musk, we're gonna have to bring it 418 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: back to Los Angeles. Is going to take another six months, 419 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: and he said, no, fix it here. Now that was 420 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: an enormous risk. That's a worse rise than not having 421 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 2: Slash baffles. And yet on that sandy hot little island 422 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: they work for three weeks pushing out the little dance, 423 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: and then they think, okay, this may never work, but 424 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: they shoot off the fourth attempt and boom, he gets 425 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: to orbit. 426 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: Stay with us, because the portrait of Musk's genius is 427 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: about to get complicated. Did you develop a kind of 428 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: philosophy of biography I've heard you talk about, or people 429 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: have used around you a kind of camera metaphor in 430 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: terms of being a biographer and being a camera with 431 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: subjects who are alive. 432 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 2: My goal is always to understand the roots of creativity. 433 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: And it's not just about being smart. Because Steve Jobs 434 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: probably wasn't as conventionally smart as they Bill Gates, but 435 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 2: he was more creative. The same with Leonardo even Einstein, 436 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: who was damn smart. What made them different from Poncaret 437 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 2: and Max Planck and others was that he was creative. 438 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 2: So I try to observe people very carefully and how 439 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: their mind works and say, what is it that makes them, 440 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: in Steve Jobs's words, think different? And that helped show 441 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 2: how they fit into history, because by being creative, history 442 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: is slightly different. 443 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: And that doesn't necessary to require that you like them 444 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: or that you think they're a hero, but it does 445 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: require at least a belief that if they weren't there, 446 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: someone wouldn't just slot into their place. I remember reading 447 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: this thing about Warren Buffett, and it was that if 448 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: there wasn't a Warren Buffett, there would be a Warren 449 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: Buffett because statistically, someone would make all the right bets 450 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: and they'd become Warren Buffett. It just happens in the market. 451 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: And you could apply a similar notion to these revolutions, 452 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: that the revolution was going to happen, there would be 453 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: a person. It might not be this person. 454 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: Does that matter the people I write about I believe 455 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: mattered that. Yes, at some point people may have figured 456 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: out special relativity, maybe in fifty years they would have 457 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: tied it together with general relativity and the coverture of gravity. 458 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: But because Einstein's there and he does both those things 459 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 2: as well as equals MC squared and many other things. 460 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: It really does change the course of physics. Ford in general, 461 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: motors in the early two thousands get out of the 462 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 2: electric vehicle business. They crushed the Chevy Bolt or whatever 463 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: because they just think it's not there. Musk goes bankrupt 464 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: twice almost with Tesla, but he keeps persevering. And now 465 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: we have moved into the air of electric vehicles. And 466 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: it will look odd if you know somebody ten years 467 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 2: from now who's buying a car that uses internal combustion 468 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: engines with extracted fossil fuels. And then he's brought us 469 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: back into the era of space adventure. It's the only 470 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: person can get astronauts from the US into orbit and 471 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: then reland the rocket. No other company, no other country, 472 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: has been able to take rockets, get things and then 473 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: land them upright and reuse them, which is necessary if 474 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: you're going to get to Mars. 475 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: In the story of Musk, the mercurial genius pushing us 476 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: to Mars, ushering in the electrified future. When Isaacson first 477 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: hit the ground running back in twenty twenty one, that's 478 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: more or less where the story was. 479 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: In subways deep inside I of course wish he hadn't 480 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: bought Twitter, because I'm not somebody who loves conflicting controversy. 481 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: I like creativity, and I'm not somebody who liked writing 482 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 2: about people who people really really hate because it makes 483 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: them more difficult. However, it certainly makes for a better story. 484 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: On the next episode of On Musk, we descend into 485 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: Musk's impulsive side, his preference for drama, his pension for 486 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: lashing out its staff, his personal demons, and of course, 487 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: the faithful decision to jump into Twitter now x. 488 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: Musk turns to his security guard, said, you got a 489 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: pocket mine. It's like rocket engines were simpler to him 490 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: than human emotions, and that's the type of toughness that 491 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: I don't find easy to stomach. It really really turned 492 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: me off. 493 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: Did he ever turn his anger on you? Did you 494 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: experience demon mode directed at you? 495 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 2: That doesn't excuse all of musk behavior, and sometimes we 496 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 2: confuse explaining something with excusing it. 497 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 498 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: and iHeart This show is based on the writing and 499 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: reporting of Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me Evan Ratliffe, 500 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: produced by Lizzie Jacobs's assistant production from Serena Chow, mixing 501 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: and sound design by Rick Kwan. Thomas Walsh did the 502 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: engineering from iHeart Podcasts. The executive producers are Katrina Norvel 503 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: and Ali Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by 504 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: Manges Htikador with an assist from Oz Walishan Kostaslinos and 505 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: Kate Osbourne. Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, will Pearson, 506 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: Nicki Etor, Kerrie Lieberman, Nathan Otowski, Ali Gavin, and the 507 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: folks at WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio 508 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: in New Orleans. If you like stories about writers in 509 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: their process, check out my other show, The long Form Podcast. 510 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: If you want a story about a different South African 511 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: programmer who became one of the world's biggest criminals, you 512 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: could check out my book, The Mastermind. And for more 513 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit Kaleidoscope dot NYC. 514 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.