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Speaker 1: Hey, Girlfriends, it's Anna here. This is Bonus episode four,

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Speaker 1: the final one, and this one's really special because it

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Speaker 1: was recorded live at Wilderness Festival back in August. It's

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Speaker 1: going to include a lot of discussion about murder and

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Speaker 1: violence against women, and it's going to touch on the

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Speaker 1: topic of abortion. But it's also really fascinating discussion about

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Speaker 1: the ethics of true crime and the roles we all

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Speaker 1: play as part of it.

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Speaker 2: So to the festival.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to our very first live podcast recording

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Speaker 1: of The Girlfriends.

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Speaker 2: It is so great to be here at Wilderness Festival.

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Speaker 1: I've got a crick in my neck because I slept

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Speaker 1: badly last night in a tent.

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Speaker 2: Awful, but it was so nice as well.

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Speaker 1: I'm Anna Sinfield and today I'm joined by Kate summer Scale,

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Speaker 1: the author of The Peak Show, which is a true

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Speaker 1: crime book about a set of eight shocking murders that

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Speaker 1: happened in London in the nineteen forties and fifties. The

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Speaker 1: book deep dives on the serial killer John Christie, his

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Speaker 1: female victims, and the circumstances that allowed him to go

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Speaker 1: uncourt for so long and potentially caused another man to

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Speaker 1: be hanged for his crime, but it also brings up

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Speaker 1: lots of interesting questions about the impact and role of

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Speaker 1: true crime reporting, which is basically what we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about today. So, without any further ado from

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Speaker 1: the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts, this is the

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Speaker 1: Girlfriend's Jail House Lawyer. Okay, So fans of the Girlfriends

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Speaker 1: will know that our later series Your House Lawyer.

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Speaker 2: I wrestle with figuring out my role.

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Speaker 1: In reporting that story, and also, more broadly, with the

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Speaker 1: ethics of true crime reporting, of turning something so kind

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Speaker 1: of awful into a sense of like morbid entertainment. And

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Speaker 1: I know that that's something that you've had to wrestle

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Speaker 1: with yourself in your book The Peak Show, Kate. And

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Speaker 1: so before we get a little too existential about our jobs,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could tell me first what

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Speaker 1: drew you to this story out of all the grizzly

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Speaker 1: murders in the world.

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Speaker 3: It felt as if I'd always dimly known about it,

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Speaker 3: like a horrible fairy tale. I saw the wax statue

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Speaker 3: of reg Christie at the Madame Tusword's Chamber of Horrors

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Speaker 3: when I was about eight, and I saw the film

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Speaker 3: tenon Place on late night TV when I was in

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Speaker 3: my teens, and I remembered it when there were the

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Speaker 3: murders of several women in London in twenty twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: one who had been killed by strangers, Sarah Everard among them,

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Speaker 3: and I started thinking about that phenomenon, men who kill

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Speaker 3: women who are strangers to them just because they are women,

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Speaker 3: And I started wondering why, and I remembered the Rillington

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Speaker 3: Place story. I didn't even remember Red Christie's name at

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Speaker 3: the time, but when I looked it up, I saw

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Speaker 3: various parallels and echoes with the more recent crimes, and

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Speaker 3: I thought that by studying him and his world, I

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Speaker 3: could get a better sense of the connections between a culture,

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Speaker 3: a society, and the violence it produces than by looking

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Speaker 3: at my own time, which is almost too close up

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Speaker 3: to see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when you looked at those crimes of

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Speaker 1: before and compared them to the crimes that you had

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Speaker 1: been experiencing in the early twenties, seeing these women murdered

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Speaker 1: by strangers, did you feel like there was difference? Did

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Speaker 1: you notice a difference between them or does it just

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Speaker 1: feel like this sad trope of male violence has just

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Speaker 1: continued in the same form.

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Speaker 3: I did notice more the similarities and the differences. He

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Speaker 3: was not least Christie, I discovered, like Wayne Cousins, was

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Speaker 3: serving as a policeman when he committed his first known murder.

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Speaker 3: He was a reserve policeman during the Second World War,

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Speaker 3: which was an amazing opportunity for catching women unawares and

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Speaker 3: concealing crimes of violence.

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Speaker 4: So yes, I noticed the parallels, but it was.

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Speaker 3: Sort of easier to see at a distance in the fifties,

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Speaker 3: the way that Christie's attitudes were so closely echoed in

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Speaker 3: the press, in the police force, in the way that

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Speaker 3: pathologists talked about the victims, and so it helt easier

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Speaker 3: to understand him as a product of his society as

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Speaker 3: well as of his individual life.

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Speaker 1: You brought up the press there, and a big part

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Speaker 1: of your book focuses on this crime reporter called Harry Procter,

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Speaker 1: and you say in the book, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: quote this, that he was successful because he didn't just

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Speaker 1: tell a story, he infiltrated it.

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Speaker 2: He embedded himself.

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Speaker 1: I know that I lose myself in so many of

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Speaker 1: the cases that I work on, and they're pretty kind

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Speaker 1: of hardcore stories of people being killed or experiencing violence

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Speaker 1: in some respect, Are you as obsessive about your stories

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Speaker 1: as Harry Procter and me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love the research more than any other part

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Speaker 3: of the composition of a book. I mean, most of

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Speaker 3: my research, because I write historical stories, is in archives,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm going through old papers, witness statements, in

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Speaker 3: police files, transcripts of trials, photographs, maps, floor plans, and

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Speaker 3: I get completely lost in it. And it feels, you know,

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Speaker 3: as you literally are sort of touching the past. You're

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Speaker 3: holding the same documents as the people who you're writing

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Speaker 3: about and thinking about, and so I find it very,

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Speaker 3: very absorbing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know about you, But on my desk,

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Speaker 1: my writing desk at home now, I've got a kind

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Speaker 1: of really quite weird and perverse collection of belongings and

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Speaker 1: things that have been owned by victims in some of

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Speaker 1: my stories or their families, and I've been gifted them

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Speaker 1: or you know, loaned them so that i can do

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Speaker 1: my research, and it always feels so different holding you know,

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Speaker 1: for example, I've got a version of a book that

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Speaker 1: was owned by this woman called Heidi's Family in the

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Speaker 1: second series of the girlfriends. We identify this woman called

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Speaker 1: Heidi who had been murdered, and I've got her dad's

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Speaker 1: version of a book that was written about her murder.

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Speaker 1: And it feels so strange to own that artifacts and

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Speaker 1: to hold it in my hand. It feels different from

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Speaker 1: the version that I had when it was just from

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Speaker 1: the library. Do you feel strange touching the past in

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 4: Yes, i'd have.

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Speaker 3: I mean maybe because they happened seventy years ago. I

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Speaker 3: don't have so many objects in my possession, but they

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Speaker 3: are just open to the public. It feels kind of

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Speaker 3: miraculous that you can just order up these papers and

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Speaker 3: artifacts sometimes and sort of be with them and touch them.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes there are weird coincidences. I'll order a second

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Speaker 3: hand book on the internet and when it arrives, open

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Speaker 3: it and find it's sort of being inscribed to one

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Speaker 3: of the characters in the story. And then you feel

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Speaker 3: part of actually a strangely close knit network or world,

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Speaker 3: and you feel like you're sort of participating in it,

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Speaker 3: albeit over time you're not their live, but the aspiration

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Speaker 3: is to sort of be live, And in moments like that,

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Speaker 3: you feel like it almost is unfolding in real time.

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Speaker 1: There's a line in your book that really stood out

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Speaker 1: to me because it's been something I've been pulling my

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Speaker 1: hair out a little bit over. Is you wrote being

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Speaker 1: complicit in a culture that made morbid entertainment of women's bodies.

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Speaker 1: I believe you were talking about the journalism of the time.

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Speaker 1: But as a true crime writer today, do you think

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Speaker 1: that's changed and what do you think your role is

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Speaker 1: in that?

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Speaker 4: I think it's much more starkly visible.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen fifties, the ways in which the tabloid

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Speaker 3: press in particular, but also movies and posters and adverts

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Speaker 3: entered women was so sort of glaringly sexualized and objectified,

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Speaker 3: and for entertainment, you know, for pleasure, for male flecture principally,

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Speaker 3: But of course there are versions of that now, but

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Speaker 3: it's less in your face, so you kind of see

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Speaker 3: it more clearly. And in fact, there were murders that

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Speaker 3: took place in North London in twenty twenty near where

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Speaker 3: I live. Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman, who sisters, were

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Speaker 3: killed in a park. They were killed by a stranger

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Speaker 3: who had a mission to kill a certain number of women,

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Speaker 3: and afterwards the police circulated photographs of their bodies and

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Speaker 3: talk about a peep show, talk about making a morbid entertainment.

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Speaker 3: But the press does the same. A book like mine

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Speaker 3: does that. It's trying to tell a story that will

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Speaker 3: engage in gross script the reader and the subject is

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Speaker 3: the of these women. So there's some degree of complicity,

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Speaker 3: but there are different ways of doing it. There are

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Speaker 3: different ways of thinking and feeling about it and presenting it.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, in my book, I made the decision

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Speaker 3: to not include a photo section because there seemed no

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Speaker 3: way of illustrating this book without having a sort of

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Speaker 3: gallery of victims mugshots. So that's sort of try to

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Speaker 3: use Harry Procter in a way, who was also troubled

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Speaker 3: by some of these issues and was the style crime

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Speaker 3: reporter for one of the best selling tabloids in the country.

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Speaker 3: Use him to help me think about what I'm doing

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Speaker 3: and what we do and what we do as readers

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Speaker 3: of true crime or listeners to through crime podcasts and

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Speaker 3: so on, and to at least reflect on that as

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Speaker 3: I go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean that was going to be one

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Speaker 1: of my next questions was in Harry Potter's autobiography in

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Speaker 1: relation to people criticizing his reporting, He says, it was

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Speaker 1: tougher for me to do than for you to read it,

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Speaker 1: So why the hell do we do it?

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Speaker 4: That sounds very defensive to me of Harry Procter.

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Speaker 5: It.

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Speaker 3: It's not a little I mean, I wouldn't do it

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Speaker 3: unless I did enjoy it and find it rewarding and

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Speaker 3: feel I was some gripped and learnt things by doing it.

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Speaker 3: And he goes on in that passage to sort of

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Speaker 3: he blames his editors for sending him out on these stories,

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Speaker 3: and in fact, he did eventually have a nervous breakdown

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Speaker 3: because they wouldn't take him off. So he blames his editors,

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Speaker 3: He blames his bosses for sending him out on the stories,

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Speaker 3: and he blames his readers. He says, I only give

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Speaker 3: it to you because you want it, you know, before

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Speaker 3: you back through a moral outrage at me, you're the

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Speaker 3: ones who want it. So it all sounds very troubled

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Speaker 3: and defensive to me, as if he really he really

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Speaker 3: is struggling with his role in this material and the

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Speaker 3: ways in which he and many in Fleet Street carried

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Speaker 3: out their inquiries at the time is quite shocking by

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Speaker 3: today's standards, but that doesn't you know, it's still a

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Speaker 3: it's all on a spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously, as a true homewriter, I also

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Speaker 1: am going to endorse that it's a good medium. But

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Speaker 1: I do think that there are some genuine upsides to

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff we do, and you point out

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Speaker 1: some in your book. For example, some of the essays

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Speaker 1: and works around Tim Evans, the man who was hanged

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Speaker 1: prior to Christie's arrest, that helped move the needle on

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Speaker 1: conversations around the death penalty. So like, actually that writing

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Speaker 1: helped make a difference.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And Harry Proctor was desperate to get Christy to

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Speaker 3: confess to the murder of the little girl, one year

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Speaker 3: old girl for which Tim Evans had hanged, And it

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Speaker 3: wasn't just a search for justice this particular case, but

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Speaker 3: also to expose the way that the justice system could

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Speaker 3: malfunction and innocent people because there was capital punishment, could

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Speaker 3: be sent to their deaths and so there was no

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Speaker 3: way of correcting the error. So the Evans case was

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Speaker 3: really instrumental in getting the death penalty abolished in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixties. It took that long, but Harry Propter was

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Speaker 3: part of that push to expose the truth, and the government.

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Speaker 4: Was very keen to.

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Speaker 3: Move on and cover up this stuff because they wanted

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Speaker 3: to defend the justice system, but also the existence of

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Speaker 3: the death penalty, continuation of the death penalty, So it

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Speaker 3: was quite a political story in those ways, but it

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Speaker 3: also brought to light the reporting on the case, the

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Speaker 3: publicity given to it also brought to light quite a

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Speaker 3: lot of fractures and tensions in British society, and quite

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Speaker 3: a lot of desperate practices, such as an awareness about

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Speaker 3: illegal abortion and how dangerous it was and how desperate

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Speaker 3: single women often were when they became pregnant and this

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Speaker 3: was their only recourse at back street abortion because Christy

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Speaker 3: posed as and I think acted as a backstreet abortionist,

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Speaker 3: and this was one of the means by which he

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Speaker 3: lured women to his home, and so the vulnerability, it

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Speaker 3: was a particularly dramatic manifestation of the danger of back

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Speaker 3: street abortion. You wouldn't normally expect to be murdered, but

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Speaker 3: it was a fairly risky procedure in which women did sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Die and were very easily exploited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, both of those examples are examples of

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Speaker 1: crime reporting that's actually making a difference.

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Speaker 2: It's having a cultural impact.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that crime reporting always needs to you know,

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Speaker 1: the north Star needs we have an impact, We change things,

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Speaker 1: we do something different.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you always know what the impact will be,

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Speaker 3: So I don't think needs to be justified by that.

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Speaker 3: I think stories are worth telling. Terrible events are worth

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Speaker 3: exploring to find out where they come from, what form

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Speaker 3: they take, how they manifest themselves. And also some stories

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Speaker 3: very interested in the way that some of these terrible

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Speaker 3: stories express the fears and fantasies, often the unspoken fears

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Speaker 3: and fantasies of a wider world. So as a writer,

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Speaker 3: as a researcher, writing about crime feels like getting access

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Speaker 3: to a kind of underground emotional life of a society.

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Speaker 4: Of a culture, as a nation.

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Speaker 3: You start to see the things that animate people, that

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Speaker 3: scare them, that they fantasize about. And so there are

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Speaker 3: lots of ways, not all of them practical, in where

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Speaker 3: which a crime story, a story of violence can help

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Speaker 3: us learn who we are and where we come from

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Speaker 3: and how the world worked.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was one of the things that I thought

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Speaker 1: was great about your book, because you really pointed the

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Speaker 1: finger back at the audience at all of the kind

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Speaker 1: of sickos in the room today who like to listen

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Speaker 1: about murders and read about murders and grizzly things and

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Speaker 1: the darkest parts of society, and you kind of say,

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Speaker 1: why is it that you want to participate in this

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Speaker 1: grizzly peep show? And there are examples of it in

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Speaker 1: the book as well. There was a group of women

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Speaker 1: who tried to break in after it was kind of

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Speaker 1: all boarded up, just because they presumably wanted to be

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Speaker 1: in this place where so much darkness had happened to

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Speaker 1: other women. And people want to know the worst details,

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Speaker 1: don't they. Why do you think people are so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with true crime?

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Speaker 3: Such a big question when I read about the women

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Speaker 3: who tried to break in through the bay window at

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Speaker 3: Tamorylington Place, and I thought war weird, you know, And

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Speaker 3: then I thought, it's what I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: You're breaking into the window, breaking into the window and

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Speaker 1: trying to get inside the house.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not so different. And people clamored at

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Speaker 3: the courthouses to see Christy, to see him, and it

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Speaker 3: was remarked upon sometimes that a lot of them were women.

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Speaker 3: And now true crime podcasts at two thirds of the

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Speaker 3: audiences are women, so that as a route to why

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Speaker 3: are we so fascinated by it? I mean, one quite

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Speaker 3: compelling idea to me is that there are stories that

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Speaker 3: get told through these crimes that are not often aired,

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Speaker 3: stories about domestic violence, about maratal unhappiness, about betrayal, about

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Speaker 3: problems between parents and children, about unwanted pregnancies, that a

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Speaker 3: lot of the domestic difficulty that many women kind of

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Speaker 3: deal with it isn't aired so much in the pages

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Speaker 3: of the press, and certainly didn't used to be in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, unless through a story of a violent crime.

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Speaker 3: So it gives us access to things that we sort

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Speaker 3: of know about or half know about, or want to

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Speaker 3: talk about. Another thing would be that it's a kind

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Speaker 3: of knowing your enemy impulse. Do you want to see

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Speaker 3: the man who might kill you, or what that kind

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Speaker 3: of man looks like, or what makes him, how to

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Speaker 3: identify him, what circumstances the women who were killed by

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Speaker 3: him found themselves in that that happened to them, So

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Speaker 3: a self protective instinct perhaps does at work as well. Also,

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Speaker 3: I think there are just our own anger fear. Maybe

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Speaker 3: even violent stories finds an outlet in thinking about and

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Speaker 3: learning about these things, it can act as some kind

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Speaker 3: of vent or self expression. Reading as well as writing,

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Speaker 3: can be that kind of self express.

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Speaker 2: I get that. Okay, So now I've called your sickos.

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Speaker 1: I was just wondering if any of you had any

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Speaker 1: questions for me or Kate, No pressure, Lovely over here,

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Speaker 1: ll wait for the microphone.

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Speaker 2: We've got to get it on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: So dark stuff.

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Speaker 3: So do you have some sort of cleansing for yourself

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Speaker 3: once you've done some detailed research and you've written the

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Speaker 3: book to step away?

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Speaker 4: Do you need to do that at all? It feels

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Speaker 4: a big relief.

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Speaker 3: Maybe this is the case for a writer, but with

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Speaker 3: a story as intense as this, and I did work

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Speaker 3: on it very intensely, partly because there was so much material,

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Speaker 3: I needed to go fast to kind of keep it

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Speaker 3: in my head, to keep the story straight. And there's

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Speaker 3: a great relief in sharing it with other people, in

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Speaker 3: the first instance, your editor, a publishing team, that it

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Speaker 3: stops being just yours. So publication is in itself a

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Speaker 3: kind of lifting of the story from a private sphere

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Speaker 3: into a public sphere, and people can read it converse

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Speaker 3: with you about it. So something that has been internal

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Speaker 3: conversations becomes something that can be talked about and that

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Speaker 3: feels good, that feels really nice. I mean perhaps you're

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Speaker 3: asking about during the process of writing. I think it

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Speaker 3: feels like any job I need, you know, company, different

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Speaker 3: things going on. I don't feel that it's a particularly

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Speaker 3: more difficult thing to bear than any other. It's something

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Speaker 3: I'm interested in enjoy. I don't feel poisoned by it,

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Speaker 3: you know. I don't feel I need to be cleansed

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Speaker 3: as I go. I just need sort of light and shade,

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Speaker 3: as anyone would doing things for fun instead of things

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Speaker 3: that are intense and purposeful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in short, hate's made of strong stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don need some cleansing after all of my shows

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Speaker 1: any more questions? Got one over here just in front.

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Speaker 2: Hello. Do you when you go back to the start

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Speaker 2: of your career to now, do you reflect on how

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Speaker 2: it's perhaps shaped you as a person in your response

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Speaker 2: to the world.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've had a big change of career in that

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Speaker 3: I worked as a journalist for many years for newspapers.

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Speaker 4: I was an editor.

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Speaker 3: Rather than a writer, and I left to write a

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Speaker 3: book which was successful Beyond my dreams and need to

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Speaker 3: continue writing books and that's all I do. That's been

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Speaker 3: a huge change because I get to decide what I

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Speaker 3: do every day. I get to sort of follow my nose,

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Speaker 3: follow my curiosity, and I miss the company of the

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Speaker 3: newspaper office. It's quite a solitary work I do now,

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Speaker 3: but I love being able to determine my own path

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Speaker 3: all the time, and I'm sure that has changed me

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Speaker 3: as a person and how I feel my place in

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 1: I think we've got time, but one more question then

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Speaker 1: I've got to wrap it up.

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Speaker 5: Hi, So you were talking about why people listen to

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Speaker 5: true crime. Do you think that because in the media

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Speaker 5: killers are kind of shown as like monsters and stuff.

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Speaker 5: Do you think there's like a need to feel separated

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Speaker 5: from those people. What are your thoughts on that.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I think totally yes.

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Speaker 3: And I really noticed in the coverage of Christie how

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Speaker 3: eager the press was to sort of monster him, you know,

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Speaker 3: to either talk about him as a psychopath, a word

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Speaker 3: I find quite problematic, just the way you're saying, like,

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Speaker 3: not like me, you know, a monster, a creature, and

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Speaker 3: the desire to distance oneself from the murderer and to

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Speaker 3: be reassured that you're not that is. I think one

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Speaker 3: of the pleasures of reading about crime, whether it's fictional

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Speaker 3: or factual, and it's a totally understandable impulse, but one

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Speaker 3: of its effects is to sort of say that this

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Speaker 3: person has nothing to do with the society in which

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Speaker 3: he lived, and I think there is more complicity than that.

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Speaker 3: I was eager neither to glamorize Christie as this sort

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Speaker 3: of great serial killer, you know, cunning, but nor to

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Speaker 3: distance him in the way that the press did at

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Speaker 3: the time, and to make him so different, so kind

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Speaker 3: of exceptional. And I could see he was in some ways.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't exceptional. The things he ultimately did were, but

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Speaker 3: his sort of fantasies and assumptions and prejudices were perfectly ordinary,

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Speaker 3: I mean, frighteningly ordinary. And I'm sure it's shared across

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Speaker 3: the society. And I totally agree with you that one

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Speaker 3: of the pleasures of especially like if you read a

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Speaker 3: crime novel and you get to the end and you're

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Speaker 3: one of the pleasures is it wasn't me, you know,

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Speaker 3: knowing to do with me, So feelings of kind of

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Speaker 3: unease or guilt are dispelled by the identification of the

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Speaker 3: murderer and the assignment of blame.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: On the Girlfriend's Joe House Lawyer, which is the podcast

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Speaker 1: that's coming out at the moment, We've actually tried to

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Speaker 1: go on the other side of kind of exploring.

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Speaker 2: What it means to be a villain.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to understand what happens when you fall in

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Speaker 1: the in between, which is where all of us fall,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say, is we're neither perfect nor are

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Speaker 1: we totally bad. And even the perpetrators that I actually

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Speaker 1: spend time interviewing. I'm interviewing people who've been convicted of

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Speaker 1: murder on the show, and it's realizing that they have passed.

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Speaker 2: That have led them up to that point.

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Speaker 1: And when you start to kind of try and stop

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Speaker 1: seeing them just as monsters, but as people who are

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Speaker 1: a product of their circumstances, it forces you to look

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Speaker 1: inwards as well, which is a scary place to be looking.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, that is a fun note to end on.

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Speaker 1: Look, that's all we've got time for today, So thank

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Speaker 1: you so much, Kate.

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Speaker 2: This has been brilliant. Could everyone give her a big.

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Speaker 1: Run of a pause, So do make sure to pick

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Speaker 1: up Kate's book, The Peak Show at All the usual

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Speaker 1: spots and check out The Girlfriends wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: which is where you hear me. Thank you, Thank you

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00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: so much to Kate and to Wilderness Festival for having me,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for listening.

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Speaker 2: We've finally come to the end of season three.

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Speaker 1: The Girlfriends will return with a brand new season very soon,

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Speaker 1: and I won't give you any spoilers, but let's just

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Speaker 1: say I've heard some of it and you're in for

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00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: one hell of a story. Plus, make sure you check

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Speaker 1: out The Girlfriend's Spotlight two where you can hear more

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Speaker 1: incredible stories of women winning.

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Speaker 2: That's it from me, so I'll see you soon.

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Speaker 1: The Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: For more from Novel, visit novel dot Audio. The show

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Speaker 1: is hosted by me Anna Sinfield and is written and

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00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: produced by me and Lee Meyer, with additional production from

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00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: Jaco Taivich and Michael Jinno. Our assistant produce is Madeline Parr.

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00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: The editors are Georgia Moody and me Annasinfield. Production management

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00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: from Sarie Houston, Joe Savage, and Charlotte Wolfe.

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00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: Our fact checker is Daniel Suleiman.

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Speaker 1: Music supervision by me Alis Infield, Lee Meyer, and Nicholas Alexander.

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Speaker 1: Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein.

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Speaker 1: Story development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton. Creative

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Speaker 1: director of novel, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan are executive

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Speaker 1: producers for novel, and Katrina Norvell and Nicki Eator are

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Speaker 1: the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, and the marketing lead

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Speaker 1: is Alison Cantor. Thanks also to Carry Lieberman and the

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Speaker 1: whole team at WME