1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. Now, have you 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: ever heard, bridget the idea that boys are just messier 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: than girls, or that men are just slobs who never 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: clean up after themselves. Not only have I heard of this, 6 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: I have been told this by men I have lived 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: with as a way of getting out of doing housework. Oh. Really, 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: that's an interesting way to look at it, because for me, 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: when I think about that stereotype, and it is a 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: gender stereotype that women are just cleaner or neater than 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: our male counterparts, a part of my feminist side things 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: will hold on a second, that is an overarching generalization 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: based on gender that can't be true, you know, I 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: immediately and thinking, well, that just feels like a cop 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: out that makes men feel like they're off the hook 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: and the bar is low for our expectations of their cleanliness. 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: And I also immediately think of the best women in 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: my life, my favorite friends who I know who are 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: not the tidiest women. Are you thinking of someone in particular, 20 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: someone sitting across this table? Perhaps perhaps I also I'm 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: thinking about my college roommates. I mean, my college roomates 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: you walk into their room and it was like a 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: bomb went off. There were clothes all over the floor. 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, my male collegiate counterparts had 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: another level of disgusting. And I've lived in group houses 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: full of all people who identify as women. Those have 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: not been the neatest places either. Yeah, it sounds like, 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: especially in college, it sounds like a lot of people 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: are just messy. You're living on your own, You maybe 30 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: don't know how to do laundry, you don't know how 31 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: to fold. It just sounds like it's a messy situation 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: across the board, right, And so part of me thinks 33 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: this can't be that simple. That has to be an old, 34 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: dated stereotype. Blah blah blah, and the inner feminist part 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: of me things that can't be true. This is a stereotype. 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: It's a generalization. And by the way, we know that 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: gay folks have a totally different stereotype, right, We kind 38 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: of assume that gay men are clean, and that's part 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: of the feminization of the gay man stereotype, and it 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: totally erases transgender folks. It's putting all of this baggage 41 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: on gender that just immediately gets me up in arms, 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: thinking this can't be true. And yet the more I 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: looked into it, there's a pretty overwhelming argument, a case 44 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: to be made backed up by a whole bunch of research, 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: that there's some truth to that. Then there might be 46 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: some truth to the overwhelming number of women who report 47 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: living with men who do not pick up after themselves. 48 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: So the first thing I want to acknowledge is that 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: there is a little bit of a difference that is 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: hard to account for, I would say pretty much impossible 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: to account for in all of this data between someone 52 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: who's just me see and someone who cleans up after themselves. 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm seeing? Like to me, there's 54 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: a difference between people who clean up a lot and 55 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: people who might be less messy to be in with. 56 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: And oh, I see what you're saying. So that some 57 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: people are just sort of naturally a little more messy. 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: But then if you clean up after yourself, then you're 59 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: not really even if you're right predisposed to being a 60 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: messy person, if you're cleaning, if you're someone who cleans 61 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: up after yourself, you're not really messy, right, So all 62 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: of the research is about how much time you spend cleaning, 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: which to me is a little bit different than who's messy, 64 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: because yeah, because I'm I am like, sure, I am 65 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: sure it's crab a messy person, but I clean pretty 66 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: much every day. Really, nobody, we're not going to do 67 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: an investigator follow up on that too carefully. Well, it's 68 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: funny that you mentioned college because that's where some of 69 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: the research really begins. That got me really interested. There 70 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: was a really interesting study done by College Stats and 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: what they found is that from a bacteria real standpoint, 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: you just total you. They have a study little infographic 73 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: here called the germyst Objects in dorm Rooms, which that 74 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: almost feels like too much information, but what they found 75 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: is that women have very dirty bathrooms and men the 76 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: male dorm rooms have really dirty sheets. Yeah, I know, 77 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: that's just too much information. However, Ergo Flex, which is 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: a UK based mattress company, also commissioned to study, this 79 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: time on adult men and women, and they also found 80 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: that men between the ages of eighteen to twenty five, 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: fifty percent of them only changed their sheets four times 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: a year. Alert alert, do not go home with men. 83 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: If you get in their bed they are not changing 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: the watch out, y'all. And I guess what that really 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: results in is not only bacterial growth in like literal 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: fungus that can form in between the threads of your sheets, 87 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: but we're also talking about dust mites and bed bugs 88 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: and all kinds of nastiness. And the health community really 89 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: recommends changing your sheets every two weeks, which, okay, I 90 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: don't do that. How often do you change your sheets? 91 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: I'm more like a monthly sheet changer. Now. I wish 92 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: more regularly because I learned way too much about ever. 93 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: I said it, you're gonna change them as soon as 94 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: you get home. I know, Well, I just did, and 95 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: it made me realize when I first started cohabitating with 96 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: Brad the Boom, he never even thought, oh, these sheets 97 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: are dirty, we should change them. That was a novel 98 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: concept to him that I had to introduce. I have 99 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: to say, I'm talking a lot of crap about people 100 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: out there that aren't changing their sheets enough, but I 101 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: will be remiss to not mentioned that. Maybe Back in 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: I was at a workplace and I was just sort 103 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: of casually talking to a co worker and I said, 104 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: is it funny how you wash your T shirts every day, 105 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: but then you pretty much never wash your hoodies and 106 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: she said, hold the phone, you're not watching your hoodies, 107 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, you don't need to wash hoodies. 108 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: That was the first time I found out that people 109 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: were watching their entiref to breeze that right. In the 110 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: same way about jeans that, oh, you're actually not supposed 111 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: to wash sheans you can put them in the freezer. 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: That well, I don't know that's true. If you put 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: jeans in the freezer, they stay clean for longer. Look 114 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, all right, I only wash my jeans 115 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: more than that. Like, I don't never wash my jeans. 116 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: I only wash my jeans from necessity because I constantly 117 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: am spilling up myself. I feel like we're sounding like 118 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: messier and messier and grocer and grocer people. I feel 119 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: like a confession box. That is what's happening here. It 120 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: feels like a burden has been lifted. But we'll also 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: feel better by the end of this episode. Because another 122 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: study was commissioned by Home Adviser amongst over two thousand 123 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: adults who live with a person of the opposite gender. 124 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: So again, this is super heteronormative. We have to say 125 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: that it's not really taking consideration data on same sex couples. 126 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: But what they found is that women are much more 127 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: likely to subscribe to many cleaning habits, like cleaning up 128 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: after themselves in the bathroom, making the bed in the morning. 129 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: Women said that they were bothered by clutter and unkempt 130 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: things at much higher rates as well. However, men quote 131 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: win the kitchen battle, which I found surprising. Men were 132 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 1: more likely to clean their dirty dishes right away after 133 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: using them. I think they just put that in there. 134 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: It's like a little gold star for the men reading. Yeah, 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: that even that's probably not even true. I just add 136 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: that well, men surveyed said they clean dirty dishes right away, 137 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: whereas forty four point four percent of women. So if 138 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: you look at the overall statistics, things like vacuuming, picking 139 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: up clutter, all of that, wiping down the sink after 140 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: brushing your teeth, women are much more likely to report 141 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: engaging in those activities, and the research more broadly definitely 142 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: bears that out. Even though men are doing more childcare 143 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: than ever before, when it comes to housework and just 144 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: cleaning up the home, men are still lacking behind, and 145 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: that that gap is barely closed definitely. Um. One of 146 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: the stats I find so funny. In this study, they 147 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: ask about whether or not you think it's acceptable to 148 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: leave the toilet sea up, which isn't even really cleaning 149 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: first of all, but of men I think it's acceptable, 150 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: only sixteen eight percent of women find that acceptable. And 151 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: these are men who lived with women. Dang, that is 152 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: not cool. Isn't that something that little boys are taught 153 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: since the very beginning. It's like drilled into their head, 154 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: like you have to put the seat back down. That's 155 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: bizarre to me. Um, I'm sure there's a men's rights 156 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: podcast out there that's like women even ask us to 157 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: put the seat down. That is precious time in my 158 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: day that I'm taking out to try to provide women 159 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: with above and beyond service and effort. I can see 160 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: the argument that way too, and it's insane. Here's the deal. 161 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: Apparently women are better smellers than men. Despite having no 162 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: physical differences between the nose of your average gal or 163 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: guy or the number of receptors they have, women are 164 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: apparently better at detecting smells, and studies have shown that 165 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: women use a bigger chunk of their brains when processing 166 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: smells than men do. Interesting. There are some biological studies 167 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: which I'm always annoyed by because I hate the argument that, well, 168 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: men are from ours, women are from venus. Throw your 169 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: hands up in the air and think, whatever, what are 170 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: you gonna do? Exactly? You can't smell that, the sheets 171 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: smell like feet from him. It's sort of sins responsibility. 172 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: That's the thing that really bugs me about these stats 173 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: or the conclusions that you can draw from them, which is, oh, well, 174 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: manners messlier than women, what are you gonna do? Shrug. 175 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: So this is the exact argument that Dr Gloria Moss, 176 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: who is, to be clear, a marketing professional, wrote in 177 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: her book called Why Men Like Straight Lines and Women 178 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: Like Polka Dots, which was received to mixed reviews in 179 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: the UK. She's English. She basically goes to this whole 180 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: nature versus nurture argument of how back in caveman days, 181 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: because men were hunters looking out across the horizon, scanning 182 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: fort cential food in the form of animals, which requires 183 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: looking at these like sort of straight line horizon shots 184 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: and being able to differentiate on this like vertical or 185 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: horizontal access with their eyes, men biologically have become more 186 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: sensitive to stripes and things that are straight lines. Yeah, 187 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: Bridget has a very quizzical look on her face right 188 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: now that I completely agree with. I just don't think 189 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: that sounds right. Doesn't sound that doesn't sound sounds to 190 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: me as you are wearing a what kind of dress? Right? 191 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: I love stripes strep too. So she also goes on 192 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: to make this argument that women were gatherers, so we 193 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: needed the ability to, I don't know, differentiate between a 194 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: red berry and the green foliage behind the berry. This 195 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: is literally the argument she's making in her book, and 196 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: that's why women like spherical things better. So it's a 197 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: kind of, in my opinion, is a very big leap. 198 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: But she's drawing from her expertise of branding, packaging for 199 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: products and how women seem to like spherical objects. I'm 200 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: thinking of the e O s spherical objects. I don't. Well, 201 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: here's I don't agree with it, and neither does This 202 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: hilarious article in the debrief, which the title is science, 203 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: says there's an evolutionary reason why men are messier than women, 204 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: and we're calling bull on that one, and they just 205 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: take her down argument by argument. But to be clear, 206 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: from a marketing perspective, I have a logo that is 207 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: a circle for my company, Like I get that I'm 208 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: drawn to maybe circular or spherical. I don't know lip 209 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: gloss like the e O S evolution of smooth lip gloss, 210 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean I don't like stripes, and I 211 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: sure as hell don't think it means that women are 212 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: cleaner than men. I would even argue there's a little 213 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: bit of a novelty for everyone when something comes in 214 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: a small circular package like those chocolates Ferrero Rochet. Something 215 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: about it screams like elegance to be delightful. Whatever. Yeah, 216 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not a gender thing as far 217 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: as I'm saying. But this is totally her her argument, 218 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: and they take her down in the most hilarious of ways. 219 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: In the article sort of critiquing Moss's book, they write, 220 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: let's forget about all those small details that men obsess 221 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: over in the technology masculine roles in which they've flourished, 222 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: like science I T and mechanics, and just get to 223 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: the truth of the issue. Your boyfriend's not picking up 224 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: the scattered cushions, the throw pillows and your on your 225 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: couch because he doesn't really fancy doing it. If it 226 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: means a lot to you, you should probably just ask 227 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: him to clean up after himself, and I'm sure he'd oblige. 228 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: If he doesn't, it might be time to get a 229 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: new boyfriend. But for an entirely unscientific reason. Okay, I 230 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: hate this. I hate this so much. Let me tell 231 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: you why. This argument that your boyfriend or whatever just 232 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: doesn't want to pick up the cushions on the couch 233 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: and that's why he's not doing it, and if it's 234 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: important to you, you gotta tell him. That's b s. Well, 235 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: it's putting the emotional labor on women exactly because as women, 236 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be up to me to tell a grown 237 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: man to pick up the cushion. We live in a house. 238 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: You want a house to be nice. This is just 239 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: putting the labor back on the woman. And that's just 240 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: on top of all the other crap that we deal with. 241 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: That's just putting more stuff on us. So I hate, 242 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: I hate, I hate this argument that if you want 243 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: your boyfriend a pitch in around the house, that you 244 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: should just be doling out tasks. No, we should be 245 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: a full of fully functioning member of your of your 246 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: domestic household, and we're going to come back to that 247 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: because I also intrinsically want to get on board with 248 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: that rally and cry and think this lady is full 249 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: of it. But two things make me saying differently. One, 250 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: LGBT couples are doing this better, and there is really 251 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: interesting data on having open dialogue and conversations about what 252 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: you want and need in terms of cleanliness as being 253 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: critical to their success, which we're gonna get to at 254 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: the very end of the episode. But Secondly, as much 255 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: as I think this sounds like bunk and want to 256 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: get on board trashing this theory, actually there's some pretty 257 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: compelling evidence that shows men really don't notice the mess, 258 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: that the men are less like lead a notice mess 259 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: than women are. Emily, can you not rein on my 260 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: hate parade? I know I'm usually right there with you. 261 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: But here's the deal. Even though it sounds sexist to say, 262 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, men are off the hook, there's this whole 263 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: hypothesis called the epistemic hypothesis that Alexandra Bradner in The 264 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: Atlantic magazine really breaks down. She writes, perhaps men simply 265 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: can't see what needs to be done. They didn't see 266 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: their fathers doing these tasks and their mothers did their 267 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: invisible work quietly and without call for recognition. She's talking 268 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: sort of historically, I would say, like a generation or 269 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: two ago. In this case, our male partners suffer from 270 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: what philosopher nor Would Russell Hanson called seeing as without 271 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: the requisite background as a trained scrap booker. For example, 272 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: men do not see a pile of old photos as 273 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: a distracting project waiting to happen. It's just a pile 274 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: of old photos. They live in a different reality. It's 275 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: almost like men have a completely different perception of clutter 276 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: and mess that might bother women more so than men. 277 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: I think that's fascinating, but I still want to push 278 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: back a little bit, because I don't think it's okay 279 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: to draw those kind of sweeping conclusions about men and 280 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: women based on that kind of thing. I still don't 281 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: feel super comfortable with that. I totally agree, and to 282 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: the extent that it's a nature versus nurture argument. I 283 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: think it's much more acceptable to me to think that 284 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: men have been conditioned to not have to worry about mess. 285 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: But in reality, there's this sort of difference of opinion 286 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: in the research. Some people think men have just not 287 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: been a cultured or socialized to see mess as their 288 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: problem and are less likely to have it in the 289 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: foreground of their vision. Sort of recedes to the background 290 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and isn't a focus to them, whereas other scientists literally 291 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: say that they have a different cognitive architecture. And there's 292 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: some very early selective attention data suggesting that distractions are 293 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: costly for women, but when it comes to men, these 294 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: same distractions may serve as cues to get men to 295 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: pay attention to whole categories of things they might otherwise ignore. 296 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: There's this book called Hidden in Plain Sight, The Social 297 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: Structure of Irrelevance, which I just kind of love that title, 298 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: of which the whole point is that everything we do 299 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: depends first and what we define as worth noticing. You 300 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: can't care about mess or really anything else if you 301 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: don't even see it as your reality. And so there's 302 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: this sort of famous invisible guerrilla experiment. I don't know 303 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: if you've heard of this. There's this video of basketball 304 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: players who are passing a basketball on multiple like they 305 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: make like nineteen passes in ten fifteen seconds, and people 306 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: are asked to pay attention to how many passes the 307 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: team makes during this video, which is something I play 308 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: often in my training actually on mindfulness. During this video, 309 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: a person in a guerrilla suit moonwalks through the middle 310 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: of the video. Have you seen? This was viral after 311 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: being used in the UK as a pedestrian or cyclist 312 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: awareness campaign on TV, and they basically said, you can't 313 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: look out for what you're not seeing, and so it 314 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: helps you change your perception and be more mindfully aware 315 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: of how context and and attention shapes reality. And basically 316 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: the point here is that relevance isn't always objective. Men 317 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: might see different things as relevant as women, But to me, 318 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: there are certain things in your foreground that for men 319 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: might be in the background. I think that makes so 320 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: much sense. And even though I'm I overall don't like 321 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: the sort of putting men and women in different categories 322 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: like that, but in terms of how I am at home, 323 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: if my room is messy, I can't ignore it, right, 324 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: I can't. Even I don't. I don't feel like I 325 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: have the option. Like I'm a messy person and I'm 326 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: pretty comfortable with a certain level of clutter, and in 327 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: fact feel comfortable in clutter um, but there's sort of 328 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: a tipping point where if it's q cluttered it's all 329 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: I can see when I walk into a room, it's 330 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: like all I can see. And so sometimes I get 331 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: into a place where I'll have to be late because 332 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: I had to pick the recycling out because I can't 333 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: I can't look at it anymore. It's kind of like 334 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: ruining my whole day. Yeah, and you know what's funny 335 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: is that this journalist, John Chait wrote a pretty controversial 336 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: column all about this, saying, listen, while I agree in 337 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: general that domestic life requires more gender equality dot dot dot, 338 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: this always starts off well, right, the housework problem has 339 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: a partial solution that's simpler and more elegant, do less 340 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: of it. So he's basically saying, you know, women just 341 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 1: have higher standards that are too outrageous of cleanliness. Not 342 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: only should men do more on the household, maybe women 343 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: should lower their standards. That's first of all, I know, 344 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with State's work. That's a classic shade argument. Hey, ladies, 345 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: ever considered living in filth? Yeah, which is funny, but 346 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: then obviously from him as the messenger, that sounds offensive. 347 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: And trust me, we're going to cover a really hilarious 348 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: response that someone else wrote to that in a minute. 349 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: But what I find interesting is that a friend of 350 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: mine whom I respect, a ton who is a C 351 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: suite executive black woman who wrote a book recently called 352 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: Drop the Ball, Tiffany Doofu, basically says the same thing, 353 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: but in a much more palatable way to mainstream feminists. 354 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: After all, the subtitle of her book, Dropped the Ball, 355 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: is how women can achieve more by doing less. I 356 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: love how I'm so much more receptive when it comes 357 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: from a black feminist. I'm like when I'm like, oh, 358 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: go away, Well, isn't it funny how our perception shapes 359 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: a reality. Be Here's the thing. Even though I think 360 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: some people have this foreground background thing, I refuse to 361 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: believe it falls equally along gender lines. I still believe 362 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: that maybe the overwhelming majority of men are less able 363 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: to see mess. But I think that socialization has a 364 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: ton to do with that. Did you grow up in 365 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: a household where that was noticeable or talked about, or 366 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: chores were expected? What was the cleanliness standards of your 367 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: household in general? And did you see dad picking up 368 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 1: as much as you saw mom? If that's the kind 369 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: of household you lived in, I think we can change 370 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: our perception by changing how we're basically socializing our kids. 371 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: I want to talk through a couple more theories behind 372 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: this huge disparity between who's cleaning up more and who's messier. 373 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: After a quick word from our sponsors, and we're back 374 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: and we're talking through why the heck the stereotype that 375 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: men are messier and women are cleaner is maybe not 376 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: so much of a stereotype but in fact a reality. 377 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: And here's an interesting piece from Oliver Berkman in The Guardian. 378 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: He writes that, as it turns out, when it comes 379 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: to childcare and cooking, those kinds of tasks are much 380 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: more evenly shared between men and women than they were, 381 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: you know, fifty years ago, but women are still far 382 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: more likely to be shouldering the housework that it takes 383 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: to keep your home relatively clean. What is interesting in 384 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: the first theory we just broke down is that maybe 385 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: men don't see the mess. And one study even found 386 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: that single men with no one else to shoulder the 387 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: burden of cleaning up did half as much as single 388 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: women when it came to ours spent on cleaning. So 389 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: there is evidence to suggest that maybe they just don't 390 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: see the mess. Or are less bothered by it than 391 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: your average woman. That sounds super, super super true to me. 392 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: First of all, I've known some men, some single men 393 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: who live alone, where you go into their bathroom and 394 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: you think, how can you live like this doesn't just 395 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: bother you, it's just driving you up the wall, and 396 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: they don't even see what you're referring to. I know 397 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: some guys out there who I guarantee have never scrubbed 398 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: their bathroom floor ever in the existence of them living 399 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: in their places. A friend of mine badly, badly, badly 400 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: wanted to hire a housekeeper, but her husband was very 401 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: much a posed because his mom was a housekeeper and 402 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 1: they had grown up seeing their mom, you know, scrub floors, 403 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: and he said, no, you're not going to be the 404 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: kind of family that that outsources our housework. So basically 405 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: she was like, I'm gonna do a little experiment. She 406 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: hired a house keeper who came every day. Every day. 407 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: Every day this person came cleaned up it for them 408 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: and their kids. She would let them in because she 409 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: worked from home, and her husband never even noticed. So 410 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: after about a month or so, he ends up bumping 411 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: into the housekeeper and she's like, oh, aren't you the 412 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: you're the husband of the woman who has hired me, 413 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: and he's like, what's she talking about? He didn't even 414 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: notice that somebody had been coming to carefully and meticulously 415 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: clean their house every day. So it's really like they 416 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: don't see the mess. They don't see or the conliness. 417 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: So it's like all of that effort is invisible. So 418 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: it could have been done by the wife, right, all 419 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: of that effort, or by the house cleaner, or not 420 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: at all, or not at all, and he wouldn't even 421 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: them notice. There's a really great video where this guy 422 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: assumes that his coffee table is being cleaned by magic 423 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: every night. He says, pabe, did you know our coffee 424 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: table is magic? I leave cups and dishes and magazines 425 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: on this coffee table every night, and when I wake up, 426 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: they're magically gone. Oh my god. That sounds like, yeah, 427 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: it's like the tooth fairy of house cleaning, and it's 428 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: called being a woman. It's awful. That's not the kind 429 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: of labor we're asking for. But if it's like choosing 430 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: between just clean less ladies, like John Shaite says, or 431 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: the what obviously happens, which is the passive aggressive spiral 432 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: that I fall into. I don't know if you feel 433 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: this way, but I think, Okay, we're down to one 434 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: toilet paper roll left in the house. What's his next move? 435 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: That's what I do. I if I if I'm if 436 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm brad the boo, I might take some interesting actions there. 437 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: Let me just say I have willingly gone to the 438 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: point of having no toilet paper in the house, as 439 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: opposed to setting the standard of me being the household 440 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: supplies manager and reordering to the point where just two 441 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: days ago, an Amazon box arrives that he ordered that 442 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: included toilet paper. Well, you know, Emily, anything in the 443 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: toilet paper, if you wanted that enough, exactly. I was 444 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice just so I wouldn't fall into the 445 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: habit of I'm the only one who's going to even 446 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: notice these things and do something about it. But funny enough, 447 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: I had already reordered toilet paper because I was like, fine, 448 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do I guess you just won't notice. 449 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: And then it arrived and I was like, oh my god, 450 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: you ordered this one two days ago. It got primed here. 451 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: I ordered it today, and I said to him, I 452 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: was like, do you know why I love this so much? 453 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: Do you know why that means so much to me? 454 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: He's like, because we have toilet paper in the house, 455 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, because you noticed it. You noticed 456 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: we were running out. I love that. Brad's person inclination 457 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: is to be like, it makes you happy because you 458 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: don't have to wipe your butt, not surprising, it's like 459 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: a reasonable conclusion happy. But I was just like, no, 460 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: it's that you noticed, And it's to me like a 461 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: positive framing of the negative reality, which is you don't notice. 462 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: The bed isn't you know, doesn't make itself. So I'll 463 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: make the bed when I'm coming home from a business trip. 464 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: And I recently said to him, Wow, I love that 465 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: you made the bed. Isn't it nicer when you have 466 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: a made bed all day? And He's like, no, I 467 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: just make it down the days I know you're coming home. 468 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: You just actually brought up another point that I find 469 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: that I've found with my entanglements with men is that 470 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: they do expect a lot of ass kissing for stuff 471 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: that we do all the time. Right, So if a 472 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: man happens to notice, it's like the sea has parted 473 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, they need to parade well 474 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: in defense. He's not expecting that. I'm just literally trying 475 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: to provide positive reinforcement because he wouldn't know what made 476 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: me feel good about that. It's that he noticed and 477 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: he cared, and he does it just because he knows 478 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: I care about it, but not because it's important. He's 479 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: doing it because he knows it's important to you, not 480 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: because he has seen it and it's bothers him to him, 481 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: which actually goes back to the data exactly. It's not 482 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: that he doesn't notice it. He does, but only because 483 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: I care about it, not because he cares about it. 484 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: And now this man is known to vacuum the whole 485 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: apartment when I'm coming home. Is that romantic? I feel 486 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: like that might be kind of romantic. I'm not gonna 487 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: go into details, but anyway, let me just there's also 488 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: data that Cheryl Sandberg has talked about on occasion, and 489 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: I think in lean in saying that men who do 490 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: more on the house have more fulfilling sex lives. Oh, 491 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: I have no trouble believing that or how things play 492 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: out in my household, let me tell you. And I 493 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: was actually just reading something that says that couples that 494 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: can't afford it, who end up outsourcing and stuff like this, 495 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: who get housekeepers or get take outer delivery, actually report 496 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: having happier lives and happier relationships for sure, and especially 497 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: those women. I sure women in those relationships feel the 498 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: same way. So here's the deal. There's two other theories 499 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: I want to break down. The first theory is that 500 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: men just don't notice these things, whether you think it's 501 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: by nature or by nurture. I think there's a good 502 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: amount of data that backs up that theory. The second theory, 503 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure I buy into. And to sum 504 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: it up, it's it's called the motivational hypothesis. But to me, 505 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: it's really about this, they see it, but they don't care. 506 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: It's the idea that men have an inkling of what 507 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: supposedly needs to be done, but they don't really think 508 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: that those tasks are valuable enough to justify it taking 509 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: up their time at all. That sounds awful. I gotta 510 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: say that actually sounds a little bit like me not 511 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: not to like right, Yeah, Because I mean I think 512 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: about so when I was in graduate school and I 513 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: was trying to finish my my PhD, which I never 514 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: end up ended up finishing. My apartment was very, very messy, 515 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: and it became a thing where I had made a choice. 516 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: I knew I was living in squalor, but I made 517 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: a choice that my time could be better spent focused 518 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: on work, and if I wasn't working, I was to 519 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: be sleeping or having a rare night out, and that 520 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: I could tell that my apartment was a mess, but 521 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: I had just de prioritize how important that mess was 522 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: for me, and so I just said, I see the mess. 523 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: I see it's very messy, but my time is better 524 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: spent focus on something that's not cleaning my apartment. So 525 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: my apartment was filthy and I never had guests for 526 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: like four months. I also think that's a very proactive 527 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: and conscious priority that you sent, and I think that 528 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: makes sense. That's me and my exercise regimen right now. 529 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: I think exercise is important, but not right now, it's 530 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: not because that's not one of the things that fits 531 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: into my schedule for this particular month or week or whatever. 532 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: And I'm just giving myself permission to feel a little 533 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: bit bad, but not really that bad about it. And 534 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: I think sometimes you have to do that, and that 535 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: was my biggest problem with this theory. You know, even 536 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: if this motivational hypothesis does have some bearing, I don't 537 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: think there's any evidence that it's gendered. I think this 538 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: thought process, this philosophy of I'm not cleaning up or 539 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: I'm not doing the dishes right now because my time 540 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: is better spent elsewhere, isn't super connected to your gender identity. 541 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: I don't think it is either. I would even argue 542 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: that one. It's the kind of thing that's probably really 543 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: difficult to prove in research, and too, I think it 544 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: probably has more to do with your temperament, what you're 545 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: up to, what you what you consider valuable and not valuable, 546 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: what you consider productive and not productive. I agree. Now, 547 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: the third theory that is broken down in this great 548 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: Atlantic piece that I think is much more backed up 549 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: by research, is this idea that men are held to 550 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: standards other than cleanliness more so than women. Think of 551 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: it this way, right, When we think of a messy 552 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: dude's desk, it's like he must be a genius. He 553 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: must be so busy that he doesn't have time to 554 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: clean his desk, which is piled up with paperwork, and 555 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: he's focused on building client relations or doing his job 556 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: super well. It's some sort of mad scientist genius. Dude. 557 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: When we think of women who are slobs in the office, 558 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: we think she's a hot mess. She's like a Bridget 559 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: Jones character. I thought you were going to say a 560 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Never, he's one of those Bridget Todds you're 561 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: always hearing about. Total club. Just one commonality there. The 562 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: name is all I'm talking about. But it's this idea 563 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: that actually being a messy woman comes with some really 564 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: negative assumptions from your colleagues. Yeah, I've definitely felt that 565 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: I've been on the receiving end of of being a 566 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: woman who always at a messy desk. First of all, 567 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm someone who works better when things are a little 568 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: bit cluttered. It can it can look like a big 569 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: pile of garbage, but I know where things are, like, 570 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: I know this pile is this kind of thing I can. 571 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: I know that this thing on top of this pile 572 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: means X y Z. So it definitely looks ridiculous. But 573 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is looking at my desk and thinking, oh, 574 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: she's probably changing the world. Look how messy her desk is. 575 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: And I bet that for men, they probably are thinking 576 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: that sometimes. Yeah. I mean, it's just a different standard 577 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: that we hold men and women to. Cheryl Sandberg and 578 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Adam Grant actually break this down in the New York 579 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Times when they wrote about office housework, which is the 580 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: idea that women are expected to clean up around the office, 581 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: whereas when men chip in and are extra helpful around 582 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: the office, they're doing what is above and beyond expected 583 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: of them, so they get rewarded with this like social boost, 584 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: social praise, whereas women who basically don't help. She's a 585 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: team player, she's expected to be communal. But really, when 586 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: a man says no to office house work, he's assumed 587 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: to be busy. A woman is assumed to be selfish. 588 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: It blows my mind how gendered these things are. And 589 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: that sounds like so many other things. The episode that 590 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: we did around the Daddy Bump, where when a man 591 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: has a child, it's assumed that he's his great dad 592 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and it actually improves his status at work. 593 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: And how that's not true for women, it's quite true 594 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: for women's It's time and time and time again we 595 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: see these things of expectations for women that if they 596 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: don't meet there, they're falling behind and dinged port. But 597 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: if men just do the bare minimum, they get a 598 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: parade and their honor for it exactly I mean. New 599 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: York University psychologist Madeline Heilman found that staying late and 600 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: helping another employee or colleague prepare for an important meeting 601 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: earned men a fourteen percentage point increase in favorability ratings 602 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: than a woman. So, thinking about how helpful is your colleague, 603 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: if he stayed late to help out with your presentation, 604 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: and he's a dude, you're going to rate him fourteen 605 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: percent more helpful, favorable positive than women. Whereas, when both 606 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: people in this experiment declined staying late and being helpful, 607 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: a woman was rated twelve percentage points lower than a 608 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: man when it came to favorability. Wow. But I found 609 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: even more fascinating about that is this idea that when 610 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: men do actually help in those ways, they're more likely 611 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: to do so in public. Well, women are more likely 612 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: to do so behind the scenes. Thus they probably don't 613 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: even get credit at all, so they're much more likely 614 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: to take the helping option that you know, it's kind 615 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: of flashy, gets some public praise everyone can see it, 616 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: whereas a woman could be behind the scenes helping and 617 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: no one might even ever know exactly, and even if 618 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: they did know, they don't seem to care as much. 619 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: And this is what brings us back to John Chait's 620 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: argument that you should just care less and clean less 621 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: because maybe your standards are just too high in the 622 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: workplace environment. Women who do that risk being penalized. And 623 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: this is exactly what Emily Shyer wrote about in Slate 624 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: when she wrote an article titled There's a reason why 625 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: women clean more They're judged for it. She writes about 626 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: how President Obama described his first DC apartment when he 627 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: was a junior senator here being piled with pizza boxes, 628 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and how culturally or sort of socially, we look at 629 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: stories like that about messy men as lovable, kind of 630 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: absent minded professor type care acters. But for women in 631 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: pop culture, on the other hand, or just in common 632 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: sort of society that we talk about, messiness is related 633 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: to one's life being in total disarray. And let me 634 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: tell you, as a kind of messy woman, I can totally, 635 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: totally totally confirm that. By the way, I've got a 636 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: lot better confirmed that it's connected to your life being 637 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: in disarray, or that other people assume your life is 638 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: in disarray. Maybe a little bit of both. No, I'm kidding. 639 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean definitely people look at messy women in a 640 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: different way. Um. I'll never forget. Once I was I 641 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: was having my bag checks trying to go into a 642 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: nightclub for a concert, and my bag I had this 643 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: I was traveling to. My bag was huge and it 644 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: was full of a lot of different stuff, like contact 645 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: solution and I think, like a notebook, and like just 646 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of random crap. And the bouncer said, are 647 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: you living out of your car? It was just because 648 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: my person is a mess doesn't mean I'm living out 649 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: of a car. Much judge much? Yeah, jeez, I think 650 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: you're totally spot on on this. Bridget and Emily in 651 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: the Slate goes on to sort of take down John 652 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: Chade's argument by writing, before chit begins telling women how 653 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: easy it is to let go of their uptight tidiness 654 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: and lower their standards for clean living, he should think 655 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: hard about who's going to be judged for all that sloppiness, 656 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: and then maybe he should pick up the duster. I 657 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: love that takedown so much. First at all, I could 658 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: read anybody takedown chit and love it. But I love 659 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: that she reminds him, Hey, you don't know what it's 660 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: like to be judged. You don't know how harshly women 661 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: are judged for this kind of thing. Think about when 662 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: you have children. If your children's clothes are filthy, they're 663 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: not looking good. It isn't the dad that reflects bad, 664 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: it's the mom, right, And those double standards permeate personal 665 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: and professional settings. When we come back from this next 666 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: quick break, we're going to talk through what can be 667 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: done to make this a little easier and maybe a 668 00:34:49,960 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: little cleaner for all of us. And we're back, and 669 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: we've been breaking down some of the truth and some 670 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: of the truth e components to the stereotype that women 671 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: are cleaner and men just are messier. But here's the deal. 672 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, despite the research that 673 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: does reinforce those stereotypes and basically show us and men 674 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: really don't clean up after themselves as much as women do, 675 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: I refuse to believe that the status quo is unchangeable. 676 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: So what can be done to change the status quo? Well, 677 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: something that I really found really funny from the Atlantic 678 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: is they actually break it down in a checklist for 679 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: men for fathers to ask yourselves, are you doing these things? 680 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: Some of the questions they suggest that men ask themselves 681 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: to get a sense of how much they're contributing in 682 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: the household are questions like do I do half of 683 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: the laundry and half of the dishes every day? Do 684 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: I buy half of the clothes and toys? Do I 685 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: take on half of the management of my care providers? 686 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: Do I write up half of the list and notes? 687 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: Do I plan half to travel? Do I change half 688 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: the diapers? I don't people think to bet if if 689 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: people were really that's with themselves and this checklist, they 690 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: would probably find the answer to a lot of these 691 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: questions is no. And it's one of those checklists that 692 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: can be so helpful to talk through with a partner 693 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: and whatever the gender of your partner is. Having these 694 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: honest conversations about sharing responsibilities can be a good place 695 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: to start because for a lot of us, and I'll 696 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: admit myself included, I can be the first one to 697 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: jump up and assume responsibility. For instance, our dog Teddy, 698 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: on occasion has the middle of the night I need 699 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: to go out type emergency, and he'll scratch at the 700 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: door and wake us up because he's polite, like that 701 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: little teddy. The dog's kind of a genius in my 702 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: unbiased opinion. But he'll wake us up and let us 703 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: know that he has to go out. And in the 704 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: past I always jumped up and did it. And now 705 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm getting in the habit of just whacking brat a 706 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: little bit and being like, the dog needs to go out. 707 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: It's four o'clock in the morning. I did this the 708 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: last time. It was a thing, and now he's like 709 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: learning to jump up and take care of it. I 710 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: love it. I mean it was I had first recognized that, 711 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: oh I've been assuming all the responsibilit be on this 712 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: and actually ask for the help bunny. Yeah. I like that. 713 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: Not only should we be asking ourselves these questions in 714 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: terms of our our houses and our domestic situations, but 715 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: the same quid of question can be useful and translated 716 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: in the workplace as well. Grant and Sandberg talk about 717 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: the ways that we can really be thinking about the 718 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: same kind of thing in the workplace. You know, are 719 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: you the one who does the dishes in the office, 720 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: or are you the one who leaves your mug on 721 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: the counter and you just assume someone else is gonna 722 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: do it. Are you the one who's assuming responsibility for 723 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: the various kinds of alphice housework that pile up, or 724 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: are you just just assuming it's going to be someone 725 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: else's problem. Wasn't there an office episode about like a 726 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: chore wheel that Pam came up with you like illustrated 727 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: like a chore wheel to try and have different people 728 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: take different responsibilities for different chores and on different days. 729 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: For me, that whole experience is so universal to every 730 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: office I have ever worked in, except we didn't have 731 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: a chore wheel, and it resulted in a bunch of 732 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: passive aggressive emails about who's left their dirty dishes in 733 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: the office sink? Once again, that's so classic office. Well. 734 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: According to Grant and Sandberg, a signing these kinds of 735 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: tasks evenly, rather than just relying on somebody volunteering, can 736 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: really help that work get shared notice and valued. And importantly, 737 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: further research shows that having cleaner workspaces and really just 738 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: cleaner public spaces can be really important for helping us 739 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: all to be our best selves, something I totally didn't anticipate. 740 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 1: Stumbling upon in researching for this episode is that some 741 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: studies have shown chaotic spaces spur racial stereotyping. Dutch researcher 742 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: Sigwart Lindenberg conducted multiple experiments attempting to connect disorder to 743 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: bias to really us stereotyping other people and making unfair assumptions. 744 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: In one experiment, volunteers were asked to fill out a 745 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: survey at a train station with another person sitting nearby. 746 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: Half we're at a clean train station and half were 747 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: at a dirty station. At the dirty station, participants set 748 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: further away from a white person than a black person 749 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: while completing the survey. They also chose more stereotypical answers. 750 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: So first of all, their behavior changed in terms of 751 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: where they sat, and the responses they got changed based 752 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: on that environment too, in a really racially messed up way. Wow. 753 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason I think it's important 754 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: that we don't necessarily lower our standards. I think what 755 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: it means is we have to have open, honest dialogue 756 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: with her coworkers about office housework and with our domestic partners. 757 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: If you so choose to have someone with whom you cohabitate, 758 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: and unsurprisingly LGBTQ people seem to be getting this better. Yeah, basically, 759 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: on pretty much all issues we are in seventeen, the 760 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: gays are pretty much across the board. A small study 761 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: looking at how gain straight couples negotiate shores found that, 762 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: surprise surprise, same sex couples are better at discussing and 763 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: negotiating a fair division of labor, which in turn at 764 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: least both parties more satisfied. So this really kind of 765 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: goes act to this idea of open communication and expressing 766 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you were describing with Brad, 767 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: expressing what it is that you find important and what 768 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: it is that you need in a domestic situation. Yeah, exactly. 769 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: And because same sex couples are less likely to fall 770 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: into constraining sort of gender roles and economic privileges that 771 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: men tend to experience over women, for instance, it makes 772 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: sense that they would divide household chores more fairly. Researchers 773 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: asked a mix of two couples. What they found is 774 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: that of same sex dual earner couples shared equally and 775 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: laundry responsibilities versus thirty one of heterosexual couples Furthermore, sixty 776 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: two percent of same sex dual earner couples indicated that 777 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: they share sick childcare responsibilities, versus only thirty of straight couples. 778 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: I know, earlier in the episode, I was raging against 779 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: the idea that we should be doling out responsibilities. But 780 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: if you never have that conversation about how this stuff 781 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: is can to be divided up, you never have that 782 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: conversation and it just gets left to whoever. This seems 783 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: like a much better way to do it. But I 784 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: also find really interesting is that, according to the author 785 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: of that study, men and gay partnerships are much more 786 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: likely to discuss these things, whereas women in straight partnerships 787 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: aren't much more lucky to say they wanted to but didn't. Yeah, 788 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: and that was me for a long time. There are 789 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: still chore sharing conversations that I want to have with 790 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: my partner. But it's just a good reminder that when 791 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: you fall into gender stereotypes, it's easy to assume you 792 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: don't need to have that conversation. So unless we're proactive 793 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: about having the day in conversation and stop biting our tongues, 794 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna have less satisfying household division of labor. And 795 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to measuring satisfaction around the division of labor, 796 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: the researchers found that it's not necessarily about perfectly equal 797 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: division of labor, because that's not really something that's easy 798 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: to strive towards. Necessarily plausible, it's not always possible. But 799 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: the difference is whether you felt like you had a voice, 800 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: did you say what you wanted to say, or did 801 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: you just let it evolve and feel like it just 802 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: sort of happened that way, or did you just get 803 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: really passive aggressive and stop buying toilet paper and just 804 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of see what happens. Sometimes those passive aggressive games 805 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: are part of a more assertive strategy. No, it's not 806 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: like I'm playing the game Chess, not checkers. Let me 807 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: tell you, it didn't feel like chess when I'm sitting 808 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: on the toilet thinking, oh dear, I may have won 809 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: the battle, but I have lost the war. Oh I 810 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: love it. This is good, all right, cynthy listeners, and 811 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you on this. How does 812 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: the division of household chores look in your household? Are 813 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: you a very neat and tidy lady who lives with 814 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,240 Speaker 1: a slob of a dude Or are you a dude 815 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: who likes it neat and tidy and gets annoyed when 816 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: people make assumptions about your sexuality for your cleanliness or 817 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 1: wanting to look put together? Are you a woman who 818 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: lives like a filthy pirate like myself? Honestly, I actually 819 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't bud being tagged in some really liberating Instagram photos 820 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: of a messy ass apartment make us feel better about ourselves. 821 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear from you. What did 822 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: you think about today's conversation. Do you feel like it's 823 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: a nature or a nurture argument? I'm really curious to 824 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: hear from your experiences on that, and especially from our 825 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: male listeners. Do you run into the stereotype? Do you 826 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: feel like you're helping? Are you doing fifty of the 827 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: household chores at work and at home? Uh? And do 828 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: you think that your perception of that is actually in reality? 829 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: So tag us on those filthy apartment photos at stuff 830 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You on Instagram, tweet at us at 831 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast on Twitter, or send us a good 832 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: old fashioned email at mom Stuff at health stuff works 833 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: dot com