1
00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,280
Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're

2
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight

3
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:41,600
Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Good morning everyone,

4
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Bradio. I'm your host today, Steve

5
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: al Shuri, Software Radio on Time, on Target. We have

6
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,560
Speaker 1: a great show lined up for you. That's beautiful Friday morning.

7
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 1: We have Kevin Marrow, who the author of a book.

8
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,160
Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about rock Force Out, the airborne

9
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,959
Speaker 1: invasion of the Corregador in World War Two. We're gonna

10
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 1: get into that. Kevin was He's an award winning journalists.

11
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: He lives in North Carolina. He wrote the well. He

12
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: co wrote the book with Mark Owen, No Easy Days,

13
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,600
Speaker 1: hand account of the mission that killed Osama bin Laden.

14
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 1: He's written a couple of the books. One of the

15
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,760
Speaker 1: ones I haven't read yet. I want to read that

16
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 1: as American radical, radical inside the world of an undercover

17
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 1: undercover I'm tongue tied this morning. Muslim FBI agent. He's

18
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,240
Speaker 1: covered the military for the past I think sixteen or

19
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 1: seventeen years. He's been embedded with SF troops and the

20
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: eighty second Airborne well in Navy seals in Afghanistan, Iraq

21
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,680
Speaker 1: Haiti in Africa, and I'm probably leaving out a couple

22
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 1: of other countries, but we want to welcome him to

23
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 1: the podcast. Mark, thank you very much for taking the

24
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 1: time this morning. We really appreciate it. No problem, see you,

25
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Yes, Um, excuse me, Kevin, I just

26
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 1: got off the phone with them, Mark, I apologize to that. Um. Yeah,

27
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about this book, this rock Force. What what

28
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: possessed you to write this story? It's funny. I was

29
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: searching for a new book to do, and I was

30
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,920
Speaker 1: up in New York at the Dutton Offices and I

31
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: was talking to Brent, my editor up there, and he

32
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,840
Speaker 1: and I started talking about World War Two books, and

33
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: he was talking about his grandfather who jumped with the

34
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,560
Speaker 1: Bible string on Corregador. He said, look, I'd never I'd

35
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,760
Speaker 1: love to see a book about this. And I knew

36
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about creg Right. I vaguely knew it

37
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 1: was in the Philippines. I knew that it was an

38
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: airborne operation, partly because of the Airborne Operation Museum in Fayetville,

39
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,239
Speaker 1: North Carolina, has got a mannequin dressed as one of

40
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 1: the guys and all the year. UM. But I didn't

41
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 1: really I didn't really know much about the Pacific Airborne

42
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 1: operations UM, because when I was covering eighty two UM

43
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,519
Speaker 1: for the Fatal Observer, I really did a deep dive

44
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 1: into their missions in the European theater. So I started

45
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 1: poking around just to see if there was something there. Uh,

46
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 1: and then I stumbled upon this treasure trope. This Australian guy,

47
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 1: Paul Whitman, has a website that had everything to do

48
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,520
Speaker 1: with Corregador. And the more I started unpacking it, the

49
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 1: more I realized what an amazing story it was. So

50
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 1: you know, Brent, it was Brent's thread, but uh, I

51
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 1: was able to pull together kind of a great book.

52
00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 1: And then you know, he did a masterial job editing it. Yeah.

53
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because growing up, I've always been

54
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,840
Speaker 1: amazed with there's so many stories because obviously, you know,

55
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about the scope involved in World War two,

56
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 1: and and you talk about you know, uh, your editor,

57
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, saying his grandfather jumped on Corregador. My own

58
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 1: father fought on World War two, was in armor in Europe,

59
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,600
Speaker 1: and you know, my dad never talked about World War

60
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,000
Speaker 1: Two and we never knew what he did. But you know,

61
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't until after he passed away that guys from

62
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 1: his tank crew came to the wake and funeral and

63
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 1: talking to my brother and my sister and I and

64
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 1: I said, you know, your father's in a book and

65
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 1: you should research it. And uh so I had got

66
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: the juices flowing from myself and it was kind of

67
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: like the same thing. And it was an eye opening

68
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,840
Speaker 1: thing where I started reading this book, I'm reading about

69
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: my own father and stuff I never knew. And I

70
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: contacted some guys who are from Pennsylvania and they were

71
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 1: with the Pennsylvania Guard, which was like the division. And

72
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 1: reading about your father and then talking to guys who

73
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 1: were there during this battle that took place, was it's, uh,

74
00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,040
Speaker 1: it's an amazing journey, I guess you could say. And

75
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,279
Speaker 1: that's uh, that's that's awesome that you did this, because

76
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,600
Speaker 1: that's one of the battles. You know. Being a paratrooper

77
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: myself and a Special Forces guy, I love reading about

78
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: the airborne stories and that's one of the ones that

79
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 1: really hasn't been talked about that much as it it

80
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 1: they haven't and and you know, for guys who have

81
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,039
Speaker 1: jumped out of a plane. Uh, you know, you'll you'll

82
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 1: appreciate this. I mean these were small drop zones and

83
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 1: and they weren't using these modern parachutes that you can steer,

84
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 1: and it wasn't like you know, some of the stuff

85
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 1: that special operations can do. Now you know, these guys

86
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,040
Speaker 1: are coming at three hundred feet on on a small

87
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 1: golf course, in a small parade field and covered in debris.

88
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean, they had bombed the island for for weeks,

89
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: so it was you know, craters and you know, rebar

90
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: sticking out, and you know, it was a treacherous drop

91
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,719
Speaker 1: zone to jump, and it wasn't you know, it wasn't

92
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 1: these big fields like you see in Holland at Market

93
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 1: Garden or something like that. So it just just that

94
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 1: was pretty spectacular. And the fact that they jumped into

95
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,799
Speaker 1: the middle of the defenses. You know, they the idea

96
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,720
Speaker 1: initially when Jones looked at the island. The islands shaped

97
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 1: like a tadpole, it's the best way to think of it, right,

98
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 1: has this long tail that comes out of this really

99
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,920
Speaker 1: boldest head that is is a mountain. And so they

100
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 1: initially we're going to jump onto the tail, which is

101
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 1: there's an airfield at the the end of the island

102
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,359
Speaker 1: on the hail, but that defeated the purpose because they

103
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,719
Speaker 1: would have to have bought over two hills to actually

104
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: take top side, which is what at the top of

105
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: the Hill of Corregator was called. And so instead they

106
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: just jumped into the middle of the Japanese defensis and

107
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,839
Speaker 1: the Japanese were really set up to repel and an

108
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,680
Speaker 1: amphibious assault, because that's how they had taken the island

109
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 1: a couple of years before. Yeah, and that was one

110
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: of the fascinating parts of the book. I you know,

111
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,880
Speaker 1: I had heard about the airborne dropping Corregador, but I,

112
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 1: like I said, I hadn't really studied it very very well.

113
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: And then to find out reading the book that it

114
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,239
Speaker 1: was the drop zone was only a couple of seconds long,

115
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,440
Speaker 1: and it was really narrow, where if they were off

116
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 1: by just the slightest bit, the guys ended up in

117
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,360
Speaker 1: the trees right in the middle of the Japanese positions,

118
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: which some of them unfortunately did. That is incredible. And

119
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,360
Speaker 1: jumping from three hundred feet, I mean I've jumped from

120
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty um, you know, and you know

121
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 1: at times we've jumped as low as five hundred. I

122
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,880
Speaker 1: can't imagine what it must be like jumping from three

123
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: hundred feet. That alone is one of those things that

124
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 1: make you step back and appreciate the guys who did that.

125
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 1: One of my favorite stories though, too, is the correspondent

126
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,720
Speaker 1: that jumps with Tony Lopez. You know, they break the

127
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 1: chalks up and he's got a small talk. He's never

128
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: really but he's not a jump master. He's given his

129
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 1: own chalk to do, and he's got this guy he's

130
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 1: never jumped before, and they put the parachute on it

131
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 1: and they just shouting to shove him out like a bundle.

132
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 1: He's the one and he's the one that lands if

133
00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 1: you remember it in the book, and I don't want

134
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:35,680
Speaker 1: to spoil so much of it, but he's the one

135
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: that lands. Okay, where Tony actually gets hung up in

136
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: the trees, and it's it's this guy that's never jumped

137
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: before that actually helps him get out of tree. That

138
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,280
Speaker 1: was that was a good part of the book. And

139
00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,120
Speaker 1: I love that because then Tony goes helped me out

140
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 1: of here this you know, and it was like you know,

141
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 1: and something you you can appreciate having been embedded with

142
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 1: the eight second and SF. I mean, can you imagine

143
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 1: if they had just thrown a parachute on you and said, hey,

144
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna land on a postage size d Z. You're

145
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 1: going in with us and don't worry about it. Well,

146
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:13,160
Speaker 1: we'll make sure you get out there. That's crazy, It's

147
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: that's fun. It's funny. You've been that up too, because

148
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: for a while there I was talking to eighty second

149
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know, there's all the you know,

150
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 1: the being that you've been for Bragg. You know, the

151
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,520
Speaker 1: eighty second is always gearing up. They're always ready, they

152
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: always they're always in eighteen hour. You know, we can

153
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 1: be anywhere we can jump. And I was talking to

154
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 1: their public affair shop for a while. They're about going

155
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 1: to jump school and writing a story, but actually going

156
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,679
Speaker 1: through jump school so that I was jumped. I had

157
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 1: at least my like the five jumps I needed to

158
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,640
Speaker 1: be to be airborne qualified, so that if they ever

159
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: did do it, that I could be like some of

160
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,680
Speaker 1: the World War two horse bunts and jump um. I

161
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 1: didn't think it would ever come to fruition, but we talked.

162
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 1: I think we talked about it for maybe a hot

163
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: minute seriously, but I don't I don't think it ever

164
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,000
Speaker 1: got to be really serious. But I always thought that um,

165
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 1: when I was coming anything, that that would have been

166
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,560
Speaker 1: like the ultimate um in bed is to actually go

167
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,679
Speaker 1: with them out the door. That's amazing, Yeah, because you

168
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 1: think back to there was guys who jumped with the

169
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 1: eighty second in Sicily, and I believe in Normandy as well.

170
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,079
Speaker 1: I think a couple of corresponds actually jump with them

171
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: into Normandy. I know one did in Holland. So I mean,

172
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: hats off to those guys, because it's hard enough jumping

173
00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 1: when you're well trained to do it for the first

174
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 1: time into combat, and you know, especially in Corregador. I

175
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 1: mean you talk about how small the drops one is

176
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 1: full of rebar and shell craters, and of course you're

177
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 1: landing on top of a what was it, a man

178
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: strong Japanese garrison who, let's face it, they the rules

179
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,559
Speaker 1: of war didn't really apply to them. No, I mean

180
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,320
Speaker 1: this is I mean, that's the other thing that took

181
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 1: me back a little bit. It's just just how nasty

182
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,160
Speaker 1: this fight is. I mean, um, it was you know,

183
00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: credit Or wasn't an easy to fight. It was well

184
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 1: for fod because you know, the Americans had poured tons

185
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,959
Speaker 1: of money and and and effort into fortifying correct order,

186
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,599
Speaker 1: and that's why it was you know, the rock, this

187
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 1: this fortress in the in the mouth of Vanilla Bay,

188
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 1: and so you know, to having to take it back,

189
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 1: it was hard because there were so many tunnels and

190
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 1: places where defenders could really dig in and hold the

191
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 1: ground and so, um, what you find is you as

192
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,440
Speaker 1: you go through this book is is this really really nasty,

193
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: hard fight. Um, And it takes a toll on the guys.

194
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that that I

195
00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 1: got most excited about is I was writing this book,

196
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,480
Speaker 1: is I was able to find these unpublished manuscripts that

197
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,199
Speaker 1: really give you an inner monologue, so you you really

198
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: get a sense of, unlike some history books, that of

199
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,280
Speaker 1: what these guys were thinking, you know, what they were

200
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 1: praying at night, and how they were feeling. And I

201
00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,199
Speaker 1: think that intimacy is what I was really trying to

202
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: to drill down on because I really wanted the reader

203
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,320
Speaker 1: to be able to walk patrols with these guys in

204
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,479
Speaker 1: sort of experience this battle as as close as they could. Yeah. Absolutely,

205
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: And that was one of the fascinating things in the book,

206
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,920
Speaker 1: because not only do you you were able to weave

207
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: the story of the overall operation and the thought behind

208
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 1: it strategically. Okay, you know we're gonna retake Corregador. This

209
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: was a place where the US suffered or humiliating defeat

210
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: in two, so they wanted there, you know, revenge against

211
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,719
Speaker 1: the Japanese for that. But the personal stories that you

212
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: were able and I want to talk to you a

213
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 1: little bit about that. You're weaving in these personal stories.

214
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 1: What's going on in these guys head as all this

215
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: is going on. That's the best part of the book,

216
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 1: I thought was the fact that you know, we we've

217
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,079
Speaker 1: all read kind of I don't want to say sanitized,

218
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: but it is kind of sanitized history. Oh, this company

219
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 1: took this area and all this, but you're not getting

220
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: the personal side of it. And to hear these guys

221
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 1: stories that must have been very, very time consuming putting

222
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,760
Speaker 1: all that together. It was, but I was sort of

223
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,880
Speaker 1: treated as if I was embedded with the five or

224
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: third and I tried to think of it, like, how

225
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,520
Speaker 1: would I tell this story if it was happening now

226
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: or if I was getting it right after the fact,

227
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 1: And UH, and that sort of framed what I was doing.

228
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 1: I also really forgave myself for not getting into the

229
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,560
Speaker 1: bigger muscle movements of the battle. I mean, I I've

230
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,280
Speaker 1: been pretty much give you a sense that there was

231
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 1: an amphibious I saw with with UH, with other soldiers.

232
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,480
Speaker 1: I don't really get into the details of that um

233
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,920
Speaker 1: I really and I don't get into details much beyond

234
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, really one company, UM one platoon, even with

235
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,559
Speaker 1: with Calhoun. And I did that on purpose because I

236
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: wanted that intimacy. I I didn't really want there's other

237
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,319
Speaker 1: books that are written about creg it or that will

238
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 1: give you the big muscle movements and will show you,

239
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 1: you know, the really tactical maps, and and for the

240
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 1: guys that really enjoyed that those books exist, I think

241
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 1: this book is I was trying to be a little

242
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,599
Speaker 1: more accessible to folks who who want to learn a

243
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,559
Speaker 1: little bit of World War two history, but they want

244
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 1: to learn it in a way that has a real human,

245
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,840
Speaker 1: you know, a human aspect to it, but also reads

246
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,160
Speaker 1: like a novel and read a little bit like an

247
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,239
Speaker 1: adventure book, which it gives them this kind of propulsion

248
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 1: through the story. Absolutely, and you know, I think once

249
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 1: we all experienced that going back to like, uh, there

250
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 1: was the book and then later the the Ministraries Banded Brothers.

251
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,560
Speaker 1: I think people really enjoy that that kind of a story.

252
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,120
Speaker 1: Not only yeah, we all know what happened in Holland,

253
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, but now you're hearing the stories of these

254
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,160
Speaker 1: individuals paratroopers and what they're all about and where they're from.

255
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,319
Speaker 1: And I thought you did a great job of weaving

256
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,680
Speaker 1: all that into the story of the actual battle there.

257
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,840
Speaker 1: And so how long did this take you to put

258
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: all this together? Because it hadn't been time consuming trying

259
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,680
Speaker 1: to track all these guys down, it was. I really

260
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,960
Speaker 1: owe a debt to Paul. Paul Whitman, who runs the

261
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 1: Corregador basically the Cregdor historical site that has all the

262
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,200
Speaker 1: battle orders everything. Um, he was just a wealthy information

263
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: I actually went to Corregador with him and he we walked,

264
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,320
Speaker 1: we walked the battle, we walked the scenes that I

265
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: include in the book. So I basically did a tour

266
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: of where Calhoun was throughout the battle, where Bradford was,

267
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,400
Speaker 1: where some of these characters were. I spent a lot

268
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 1: of time right there. On top of that that magazine.

269
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 1: Um that's sort of the climax of the book where

270
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: the Japanese have to run a bond's eye attack to

271
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 1: try to take Topside back. And uh. I spent a

272
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: lot of time there in that gully where warmer Carter

273
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 1: holds off the Japanese. UH and eventually as a ward

274
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: of the Medal of Howner for his for his actions.

275
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,000
Speaker 1: Um So, I did a lot of traveling and tried

276
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,360
Speaker 1: to get on the ground quite a bit, but but

277
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: within it pulled together a lot of this UM and

278
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,119
Speaker 1: then I I traveled to Texas and and met Calcon's

279
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: daughter and she was able to provide me with I

280
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: actually still have it a dot matrix printed off with

281
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 1: his handwritten notes of this manuscript that he wanted to

282
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 1: write about his experience and uh and I was able

283
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 1: to merge these together. Um So the research was was

284
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 1: was consuming in that in that sense, But Paul had

285
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: really done done that the big he had. He had

286
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 1: dragged the net onto the beach, right, I just got

287
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 1: to go through and pick the fish I wanted. Um

288
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 1: So he really I owe him a debt on on

289
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 1: a lot of that. Yeah, Now this Corregador, I mean,

290
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, with those enormous gun batteries and all that

291
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: concrete is that all still pretty much intact there it is,

292
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: and you can really I mean we were into some

293
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 1: of these tunnels. Um, you know, Paul really took me

294
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,320
Speaker 1: into the depths. We went in the in the battery

295
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 1: wheel are quite a bit which is which is a

296
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 1: spot earlier in the battle or Calhoun has to take

297
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,240
Speaker 1: it in the Japanese hold it, and it was it's

298
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:58,960
Speaker 1: a massive battery, you know, massive concrete battery, uh, which

299
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: you can walk all through that, climb all through it. Um.

300
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean creg Or for for folks who are interested

301
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 1: in battlefields and going and seeing battle with curreg door

302
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 1: is a special battlefield. They haven't over developed it, it's not.

303
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 1: They do have a tour, but but they also will

304
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 1: allow you basically to hike through there. I mean I

305
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 1: spent a week there and we hiked all over, like

306
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: up and down into the jungle down. I mean we

307
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 1: hiked down that. There's a part in the book where

308
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: CalCon gets ambushed by the Japanese as they're clearing one

309
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,920
Speaker 1: of the ravine and uh, and I walked I walked

310
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 1: that ravine. I mean I saw where all that happened,

311
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 1: and it's not that much. That's not changed that much.

312
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 1: Same with where Lopez spend that his first night on

313
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 1: Cregator and they they end up he end up crawling

314
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 1: up on that balcony and shooting those guys. You know,

315
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 1: that back place is still there, So I mean, it's

316
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: it's an amazing place to walk and I'm hoping that

317
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 1: what will happen is people will will enjoy rock Force,

318
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 1: will be interested in seeing more of Bregadoor, and then

319
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 1: maybe there's a chance where you know, you can people

320
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 1: who can get to creigt or can can get a

321
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: better sense of really what happened. That's awesome. I would

322
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 1: love to see that because it's like one of those

323
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 1: places now, you know, you read about and everything. The

324
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 1: way it initially played out with the Japanese and you

325
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: know invading they took a really bloody nose trying to

326
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 1: take it the traditional way, um you know, the seaborn

327
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,280
Speaker 1: as salt, and then the Americans deciding they were going

328
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 1: to vertically envelop it using airborne forces and it totally

329
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,720
Speaker 1: took them by surprise. So it's one of those places

330
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,879
Speaker 1: I think if you're a military historian or just a

331
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: history buff it would be a great place to go.

332
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of those battlefields you have to

333
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 1: put on your bucket list. Wouldn't you say, oh, hell yeah,

334
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 1: I would go back there in a heartbeat. I mean

335
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,159
Speaker 1: what I like about it too, is is it like

336
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,120
Speaker 1: I did the tour, and the tour was pretty good.

337
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,919
Speaker 1: You know, they give me a good sense of what happened.

338
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,680
Speaker 1: You go into Malenta Tunnel where you know MacArthur was

339
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 1: was hauled up in all the Americans have pulled up early,

340
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 1: and then the Japanese were whole up there at the

341
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,320
Speaker 1: end of the battle. Um. But what I like most

342
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,199
Speaker 1: about it is there is a sense of adventure to it.

343
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 1: They will allow you to go walk around in there,

344
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 1: and then I think, I think that's that's where I

345
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: think it becomes one of these Buckett's battles, because you know,

346
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,199
Speaker 1: it gives you a real sense and you and you

347
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: can kind of get really hands onto to what you're

348
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 1: seeing and what those guys experienced. Now, you know, this

349
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: might seem like an odd question. Is it harder to

350
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: put together a historical book like this where you know

351
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 1: you're seventy five years after the fact, or is it

352
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,000
Speaker 1: harder to put together a story like you're doing, like

353
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: with you know, the Navy Sale book with Mark Owen,

354
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,120
Speaker 1: because a lot of the intelligence that you're dealing with

355
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: is still maybe classified. I think it's harder than the

356
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 1: seventy five year book for a couple of reasons. Um

357
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 1: For one, you know there, well there's a lot of

358
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 1: been source stuff around the World War Two stuff, so

359
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 1: that that the research is a little easier. But I'm

360
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: working on another World War Two book now, and what

361
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 1: I find interviewing World War Two veterans is that they

362
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: just don't want to get into it, or if they

363
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: do want to get into it, they don't really want

364
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 1: to get into the stuff, the the action stuff, right.

365
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 1: A lot most soldiers and I'm sure you're like the stude,

366
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to tell the stories about

367
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 1: the action stuff. But you know when when I interviewed

368
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,160
Speaker 1: them and I asked them, modern soldiers can tell you

369
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 1: what happened, and they tell it with a much more

370
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,120
Speaker 1: of a cinematic player because I think we were all

371
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: we all grew up on movies, so that they can

372
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 1: tell the story. I actually often will ask them, like

373
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: tell me the story like it was a movie in

374
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: your head, like when you close your eyes and see

375
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: the scene, tell me what those scenes are. It's a

376
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: lot harder for some of the older veterans, particularly around

377
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: World War Two. They just don't have that same touch point, right,

378
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 1: we all grew up on TV and movies. They didn't.

379
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: So I find it easier to do the modern get

380
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: guys to tell me modern retelling of what happened. Can

381
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: I do the World War two stuff? Yeah, it's funny

382
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 1: because uh again, I mean even my mother, my father

383
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: didn't talk about his World War two experiences, like the

384
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: bad stuff you know that he had seen, and of

385
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 1: course fighting in armor and you know Western Europe and

386
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 1: forty four and forty five wasn't a very pleasant experience.

387
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: But you know, he would only talk about funny things.

388
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that in the book. A lot of

389
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: vets talk about funny things. Are you know, people are

390
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: their friends and stuff that it isn't too I guess

391
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 1: in depth, you know, when it comes to the fighting part.

392
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: I think that was just their generation of how they

393
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 1: handle things. But I thought that the personal stories you

394
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 1: told of all these guys and what they were thinking

395
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: that had to have. It's been really difficult to pry

396
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 1: it on on some of these guys, wouldn't it Well,

397
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 1: I only really got to talk to Lopez. Um, you know,

398
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 1: Calhoun had passed, Bradford had passed already. H And so

399
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 1: I was from them. Yeah, but they had written about

400
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 1: what they were thinking. Yeah, and you've got all that right.

401
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean, those those manuscripts that I was able to

402
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 1: get ahold of were invaluable. Uh. And Paul, you know,

403
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: Paul helped Paul help him pointing me to those those

404
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: manuscripts and getting me copies of them. I mean that

405
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: they they provide you. Bradford in particular was it was

406
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 1: a really great writer and really eloquent in the way

407
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: that he could retell sort of his inner monologue. And

408
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: then Calhoun's manuscript. What I liked about Calhoun's manuscript. You know,

409
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: Calhoun I always used to joke when I was writing

410
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: the book, Calhoun is my Dick Winners, right. He is

411
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: the guy that you you past, you as the reader

412
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 1: like and want to follow, and he is really your

413
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: platoon leader as you go through this story. And uh

414
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: and and I think how raw he writes about his experience,

415
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: and and I think what I most valued about his

416
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 1: insights in creg Door is this sense of loss that

417
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 1: he has. I think too often we sort of we

418
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: look at World War Two and think, well, they you know,

419
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: of course they understood the greater good they were doing right.

420
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: But I think he gives you this sense of, you know,

421
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: the soda straught view of the sacrifice that he has

422
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: to make, and and the toll of losing his soldiers,

423
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 1: you know, weighs heavy on him. And when he leaves Corregidor,

424
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 1: you know, curreget Or, it's a success, they take Corregidoor back,

425
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: they accomplished their mission. And yet when he leaves, you

426
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: get that sense that, you know, he's trying to weigh

427
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: that the toll of of completing his mission, you know,

428
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: what it cost him. And I think that's important, and

429
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't think we don't we often in the World

430
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: War two books. I don't know if we go far

431
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 1: enough and trying to explain that you know, this wasn't

432
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: done without taking a toll on the soldiers that did it,

433
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: and the reason why they often don't want to talk

434
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: about it is that you know, these battles were horrific

435
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: and what they had to do to survive them Um,

436
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: it's something they just don't want to do again. Yeah exactly.

437
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: And you know, especially you know, fighting the Japanese where

438
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: there was absolutely no quarter given and they didn't even

439
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: like half at times they had to leave their dead behind,

440
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: knowing what was going to happen to them if the

441
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: Japanese found them. And you mentioned in the book there

442
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: was a couple of guys who had to get left

443
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: behind because of you know, firefights that were ongoing, and

444
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: their their bodies would have never found. The Japanese pulled

445
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: them away and they never found those guys. And that's

446
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: that's the kind of sad and you know, it talks

447
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: about the costs of these and these guys were under

448
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: no illusions because they knew the Japanese weren't gonna quit

449
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, not now the corregados over

450
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: there looking at further on operations, maybe on Japan itself.

451
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I mean I think that that was laying

452
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: on them. Um. And then it's it's funny if you

453
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: if you remember as you read the book, you know,

454
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: there's a couple instances of what you said, where where

455
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: just because of the situation, they just could not cover. Um.

456
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: The following paratroopers. But do you do you You notice

457
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 1: too that often they would had dreams about them, right,

458
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: and the guys would always come back and be like, hey,

459
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: you left me. Um. I thought that was very interesting

460
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: that it wasn't an isolated incident. But I think a

461
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: lot of the soldiers had this guilt, Um. But they

462
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: also pragmatic and understood that, you know, they had to

463
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: weigh to weigh everything. That's what I'm most proud of

464
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: in this book. I'll be honest, Um, I think I

465
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: think there's there's real courage in what some of these

466
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: men wrote about their experiences. And I think I think

467
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: there's real courage and acknowledging, you know, these kind of

468
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: hard decisions and the toll they take on you. Yeah,

469
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: and you know it was It was funny you mentioned

470
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: just a moment ago about Calhoun being kind of like

471
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: the Dick Winters of this unit. The guy I was

472
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: really fascinated with, obviously, besides Calhoun was Lloyd McCarter. And

473
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: when I was reading the book, I'm kind of picturing him.

474
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: I don't have a picture of him, but in my

475
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: mind I was picturing him. It's kind of the Bill

476
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: Garnier of of the five or three. He was a

477
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: really fascinating character and it was sad to hear how

478
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: his life turned out after the fact. Yeah, I lovelly.

479
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: Lloyd McCarter is one of my favorites. Uh. I wanted

480
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: to know more about Lloyd McCarter. I just couldn't find more.

481
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: But I also think part of what makes him such

482
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: a great character and such a great human is that

483
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: you just don't know that much about him. But yeah,

484
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: he he has a tragic end, but he's the class

485
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: and you know it's probably from your own service. He's

486
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: that classic soldier who's just an amazing soldier and a

487
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: great munitt. You know, he's a great guy to have

488
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: in your unit. But he's just bad at sitting idle

489
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: and bad at being around the flagpole. You know, he's

490
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: bad at formation. But man, if you're in a fight,

491
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: he's the guy you want. And I think you know

492
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: those are the those are special soldiers. And I think

493
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: you know, to to Calhoun's credit, the fact that they

494
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: fought hard to get his recognition for what he did,

495
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 1: I think speaks to just how important he was, uh

496
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: and how how his his his his service was valued

497
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: by his his unitmates. Yeah. I think McCarter is one

498
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: of those guys, and he's like that classic guy that

499
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: every commander wants him in their unit during combat and

500
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: they want to get rid of him as soon as

501
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: they get back to garrison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean

502
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: it's funny how some of the tropes work, right, Like

503
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: you you know, if I told you I was writing

504
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: a book about an airborne unit, one of the guys

505
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: is a rough and tumble lumberjack who you know, disappears

506
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: all the time to go fight with other units because

507
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: he just doesn't want to not be in combat. But

508
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: then you know, when they pull him out of the

509
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: brig just from time to jump onto this island that

510
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: they're going to fight, and they think it's only eight

511
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: d guys and that's really success. Did you tell me,

512
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: like that's ridiculous? Man, Like that's fiction. But again, this

513
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: is where like nonfiction is so powerful and that you know,

514
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: there's a reason why fiction writers use these tropes is

515
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: because the reality of the you know, this happened and

516
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: Lloyd McCarter and Bill Calhoun are are you know that personified? Yeah?

517
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: And I was, you know, fascinated reading about what happened

518
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: after the fact that Charlie Bradford and and chet is

519
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: it nikem or not nice? Umm Nikem those guys. I

520
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: mean again, the characters in the book are so strong

521
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: and that's what was I mean, it's just a it

522
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: was a page turner once you get started. You know,

523
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: there was some mismeals involved in there, and I thought

524
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: you did a great job with that because you have

525
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: just kept turning the page after page after page, and

526
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: I thought it was a great book. And again, I mean,

527
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: kudos you know too, to anyone who goes through this

528
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: kind of you know, I think investigation of putting stuff

529
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: like this together, especially love reading this World War two history.

530
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: Well thanks, no, I mean, it's it's it's a trick.

531
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: It's something I learned when I wrote Noisy Day. You know,

532
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: we wrote that one backwards. So I started on chapter

533
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: nine when when when Marco and learns about the existence

534
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: of this this this mission, and then I followed all

535
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: the way to the end, and then I wrote the

536
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: chapters that lead to the raid second. And I did

537
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: that because I didn't want I wanted to figure out

538
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: who was important in the raid that I needed to

539
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: make sure that the reader knew about so that when

540
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: the raid starts, we never have to stop and give

541
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: you an explanation on who they are. And so I

542
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: tried to take that a little bit into this book

543
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: as well, and that I just didn't want it to

544
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: get slow. I wanted you to have just enough information

545
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: to understand what they were getting into. But you know,

546
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: once the airborne operation starts, man, it's on. Uh. And

547
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: so you know, that was a kind of a deliberate

548
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: trying to cut the fat off it and make it

549
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: make it as as sort of a you know, a

550
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: straight line through as fast as I could do it. Yeah,

551
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: So what was the actually meeting you know, Lopez and

552
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: and getting to talk with him a bit. It was great.

553
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: It was great because I got to meet two guys

554
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: who jumped on Gregor, And it was great to meet

555
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: both of them, only because you know, you wanted I

556
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: wanted that human connection. It's it's one thing to take

557
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: take extrapolate off a page, but it's another thing that

558
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: to really talk to them. But the most value that

559
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: I got from talking to guys that actually jumped was

560
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: talking about other guys. You know, the action itself was

561
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: pretty laid out right, but getting to talk about like

562
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: to talk to Lopez about you know, Ed Flash who

563
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: was this platoon leader, or talked to Lopez about Bill

564
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: Kalsonomor or some of the other guys. That was where

565
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: it was most valuable. And you could see him, you know,

566
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: he sort of lit up when he started talking about

567
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: the other guy. Um. Then, so that was that was

568
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: the most valuable part. Yeah, you even get some manage

569
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: from one of the Japanese side um and I know

570
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna butcher his name, Yosha Haru no Naka. I

571
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: think it is Well, that was a that there's a

572
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: couple I I actually reached out to a couple of

573
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: different UM researchers and and I was able to find

574
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: one who was an expert on Japan and he through

575
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: his research, Doug that one out. I really when I

576
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: went into the project was hoping to get a Japanese

577
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: narrative and and be able to run a parallel narrative.

578
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: So it was a while you followed Calfmun and the

579
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: rest of the guys, you're also going to follow with

580
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Japanese soldier, but there really isn't that much out there.

581
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the guys you know were killed, Um,

582
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: the Japanese Defenders, for the most part, were killed. The

583
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: ones that did survived. I mean, there wasn't a lot

584
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: of writing about what had happened on correctors. So the

585
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: fact that we found that it's like a three page

586
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: document was the best I could do. But I thought,

587
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, but the best I could do, it was

588
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: pretty illuminating. It was pretty It was a pretty good

589
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: look at what it was like to be a foot

590
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 1: soldier in the Imperial Japanese Army and sort of that

591
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: that struggle as well. Yeah, because you know, you're looking

592
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: at it from their perspective. They're gearing up for a

593
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: seaborn invasion and all of a sudden they're seeing aircraft

594
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: drop in paratroopers on top of them. I mean, from

595
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: their perspective, that had to have been terrifying. I mean, granted,

596
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: we know how they fought and we know how they died.

597
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 1: In fact, you know, you just mentioned how hard it

598
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: is to get any narrative. I mean, uh, almost forty

599
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: five hundred of them died there. I think what the

600
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: hundred and nineteen were taken prisoner. That was it. So yeah,

601
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: the uh, the opportunities they're obviously quite limited now after

602
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: all this many years, it's got to be non existent.

603
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: But now this was, this was such a good book.

604
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: And again to our readers that are listening out there,

605
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: you can't recommend this one enough. I mean, this was

606
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: really for people who love World War two history and

607
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: then to get the personal stories involved. We can't recommend

608
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: this one enough. And uh, is there anyone you'd like

609
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: to mentioned about who helped you along with this I

610
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: know you mentioned Whitman, and um, is there anyone else

611
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: you'd like to talk about it helped along with this project.

612
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: I mean there's tons of people that helped, uh, you know,

613
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: but you know Whitman was was was a huge asset.

614
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: And then and then Brent, my editor, Brent, he really

615
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean he made this book better. You know, about

616
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: the middle of the writing of this book, a hurricane

617
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: Florence had Wilmington's I ended up covering that for ten

618
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: days and you know that was that derailed a lot

619
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: of the book. So, you know, as as the book

620
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: that you read really has a lot to do with

621
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: what Brent did and really how he edited this book.

622
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: But it was a unique experience because he was editing

623
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: it one as a doing his job. But I think

624
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: he had a real emotional connection to it because of

625
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: his grandfather, and I think that comes through. And I think,

626
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, while I'm catching a lot of accolades, and

627
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: it was very kind of you to say that. Things

628
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: you just said about the book, you know, the same

629
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: goes to Brent and the work that he did to

630
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: make the book what we have right now. Well, on

631
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: a personal note, Um, you've been embedded with a bunch

632
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: of different units. Is there are any stories that you

633
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: know you lived through that stands out as maybe one

634
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: of the the better ones that you'd like to share

635
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: with our listeners. I don't know, man, I it's funny.

636
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: I I uh, I mean, I've got stories here and there,

637
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: But so that for the most part, I I took

638
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: my job. You know. I tried to always try to

639
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: to be like as close to Ernie Pilot I could, right.

640
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to be closest to the guy that had

641
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: to do the job. I wasn't all that interested in

642
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: the guy that ordered the job to be done. I

643
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: wanted to guy to be around the guys that had

644
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: to do it. Um, I don't know. My my first

645
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: ever in bed, I got h I got to kuwait

646
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: the eighty second was just getting ready to go across

647
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: the border, and we were like the last plane, and

648
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: it was me and the bay Bear, a photographer at

649
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: the time that was working at the Fable Observer. UH.

650
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: And and then just the quick story is we get there,

651
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: we run over to this resort to get fitted with

652
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: our mop gear. Right, so in case we get slimbed

653
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: by some sort of chemical agents, you know, we'll have

654
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: a gas mask. We have the gear we have to

655
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: get UM. And so the hand that got this reserve

656
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: guy looks at me and he says, you look like

657
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: about a large He hands me this vacuum sealed top

658
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: and bottom pair of pants and a hooded jacket and

659
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: you wear with and then he rubber gloves and he

660
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: hands me this gas mask and he says, when you

661
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: hear the sirens, man, just put the gas mask on

662
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: and run into what the closest bunker. Just follow the crowd.

663
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: And that was the only training I had for any

664
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: kind of chemical agent UM if we had been hit

665
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: by it. And so when we get to Kuwait, we

666
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: get to the eighty second base, we're getting ready to

667
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: drive up to this this town in southern Iraq, and

668
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: UH and I go to put on the mop here

669
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: if we all have to wear this mont gear before

670
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: we went across the border, and the sleeves of my

671
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: jacket could about my were arm like they don't go

672
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: all the way. And so I have these camels and

673
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: and and strangely, the all the para troopers were given

674
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: b DU style camouflage MOPSID and we were given desert

675
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: camouflage styles. So I go to the chemical officer at

676
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: the eighty second of everyone INFUTR regiment and I say, hey, man,

677
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: I need a bigger jacket. So it gives me a

678
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: bigger jacket. So I show up and you know this,

679
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: as a soldier, I show up to the Humby. I'm

680
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: assigned to ride into Iraq that that night in an

681
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: I'm off here like everybody else, and I'm wearing desert

682
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: camouflage pants and a green jacket. And maybe let me

683
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: have it because I was like this rock star right

684
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: like I was like two tone matched it up. But yeah,

685
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: I was convinced that if we had gotten hit with

686
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 1: chemical agents at all, I was dead. I just didn't

687
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: have any training. I didn't know what I was doing,

688
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: and I was dressed like you know, like I was.

689
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: I picked it off the rack. Yeah, I hated wearing

690
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: that stuff. I can tell you that I remember, And

691
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: we once had a commander that thought it was a

692
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: really good idea to do a Twalmov road march in

693
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: the middle of the summer. They're in the middle of

694
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: the day and wearing all that stuff, and I remember

695
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: my mask kept filling up at water, which was sweat,

696
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: and you have to break the seal of your mask,

697
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: drip the water out, and keep going. I hated wearing

698
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: that stuff, so I definitely sympathized with that. Um. Of course,

699
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: being an SF guy, I wanted to ask you what

700
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: it was like being embedded with the SF guys, because

701
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: I know that for the most part, they aren't usually

702
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: too friendly with the news guys. You know, one of

703
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: the tricks I used when I whenever I inbeded with

704
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: SF guys is I never take my I keep my

705
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: notebook in my pocket for twenty four hours and I

706
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: told I have the whole team sit down, and I

707
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: basically explained on how this's gonna work. Essentially, you know

708
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: what off the record means went on background. You know,

709
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: on background means that that they if I have my

710
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: notebook out. I'm looking for them to quote them. If

711
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: I don't have my notebook out, they're free to say

712
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: whatever they want. If they say something that to me

713
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: while I don't have my notebook out and I want

714
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: to use it, later I will. I will come back

715
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: to them and say, you said this, I'd like to

716
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: use this. Are you okay with me using it? And

717
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: once they love the other ground rules and you you

718
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: keep up right. The s F teams always do the

719
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: same thing. They take you out and show you all

720
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: the weapons, and they say, hey, have you ever fired this?

721
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: And everybody that you know? And then and they wanted

722
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: to teach you because you know, I SF goods are

723
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: teachers at heart, and they teach you all about the weapons.

724
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: That makes them feel better. And then if you just

725
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: shut up and follow along and you just watch and

726
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: you keep up, sooner or later they'll want to suck you.

727
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: They want to build some rapport and and then after

728
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: that report building starts. You know, I'm usually in good shape,

729
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: but I usually I want I like to lay out

730
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: the ground rules pretty early. And I wrote a book

731
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: called Gentleman Ambassadors with a seventh group team out of

732
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: at a four Braggets time before they move to Florida.

733
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: And you know, I spent ten weeks with that. To you,

734
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: By the time I gotten in with that, you know,

735
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: I was just part of the team. I was no

736
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: different than like the Jay Tack or somebody else that

737
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: was attached to them. They just got used to seeing me.

738
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: But you know, for the times I've had to hit it, uh,

739
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, in a week or a couple of days,

740
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: I just want it easier to be utterly transparent and

741
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: make sure everybody's on the same page. Yeah. Absolutely, And

742
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: seventh Group that was my old stomping ground, So that's awesome.

743
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: But uh now, I hey, I don't want to take

744
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: up any more of your time. It's almost the weekend here,

745
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: and uh, I really want to thank you for taking

746
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: the time and joining us this morning. Um. You know,

747
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: we really appreciate you doing that. We appreciate your time

748
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: and all the work that you've done. Like I said,

749
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: I can't I can't recommend this book to our listeners, um,

750
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: anymore so than I already have. And we've actually written

751
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: a book review on on your work there. It'll come

752
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: out as soon as we do. The cast will kind

753
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: of double dip a little bit there to bring some

754
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: attention to it. I think this is something that everyone,

755
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: uh should read if you're a military historian. Is there

756
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: anything else you'd like to share with our listeners before

757
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: we decided to wrap this up. No, I just I

758
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: really appreciate you talking to me. Thank you so much

759
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: for the kind words, and you know, keep up a

760
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: good work over there. I mean, you know, you guys

761
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: are doing a service and uh and covering down on

762
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: the military. Uh. And so I just appreciate it. And

763
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: I appreciate you're giving me a few moments to kind

764
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: of sell the book and uh and talk about this

765
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: important story. So I appreciate, Well, we really appreciate it.

766
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: And you know, we we we call ourselves journalists, but

767
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: we're still grunts at hard so we we really like

768
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: reading stuff like this. This was really really enjoyable. Uh.

769
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: It was a great book. And and again thanks again

770
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: for your time. But before we go, just a quick announcement.

771
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: If you want to get soft Wrap on your phone,

772
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: download our free mobile app and get easy access to

773
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: our articles, podcasts, and gear reviews, all perfectly format it

774
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: to your device. Please subscribe to software dot com get

775
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: all of your access to our library of e books

776
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: and our exclusive team room forms and content available on

777
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: all Apple and Android devices. So this will wrap it

778
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: up for myself, Steve Balasti. We want to thank our

779
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: guests Kenmorrow for joining us today. It was a tremendous book. Again, folks,

780
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: rock Force checket out, make sure you download it. We'll

781
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: be back with another podcast here real soon. Software Brady,

782
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: long time on target. Thanks for listening to folks, have

783
00:40:42,480 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: a great weekend and we'll be back real soon. Use

784
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: them listening to self red Lydia