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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, I'm Carrie Champion. Welcome to Nigas Sports. Appreciate

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Speaker 1: y'all for being here. Family. So we will begin today's

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Speaker 1: pod in the nineteen seventies, to be more specific, nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven, the Yankees are in the World Series and

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Speaker 1: they are playing the Los Angeles Dodgers. That is a

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Speaker 1: live picture and obviously a major fire in a large

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Speaker 1: building and a falcon rock major the New York City.

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Speaker 2: That's a live picture, and I'll just live the fire

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Speaker 2: department in the ron have the problem from that's gonna

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Speaker 2: be play with one out now he's too.

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Speaker 1: I do all that to set up the backdrop for

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Speaker 1: a city that is super excited that they are in

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Speaker 1: the World Series. That is the unifier, but the big

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Speaker 1: divider in New York at that time, there was a

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Speaker 1: drug epidemic, crime epidemic. Citizens were scared. Some citizens were

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Speaker 1: protecting themselves by carrying guns because from my understanding, crime

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Speaker 1: was at an all time high. Our guest today, Elliott Williams,

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Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, legal analysts and journalists, wrote a book

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Speaker 1: Five Bullets to describe what some would say was the

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Speaker 1: earliest true crime media frenzy about a man who shot

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Speaker 1: four young black boys on the subway in New York City.

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Speaker 1: Sit back, relax, prepare yourselves for an education. This is

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Speaker 1: Naked Sports, Elliott Williams on Naked This is an honor friend.

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Speaker 1: So for me, I do talk about sports, culture and

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Speaker 1: politics on everything on this podcast. You live or your

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Speaker 1: new book lives at that intersection in so many different ways.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to force it, but it's going to

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Speaker 1: be here. Because as I am reading this book and

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Speaker 1: I'm from the West Coast, I'm learning so much and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, set the scene. I don't remember this.

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Speaker 1: This reminds me of so many things that cases that

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Speaker 1: we've seen later in life, things that have happened also

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Speaker 1: in New York and all over the country. But do

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Speaker 1: me a favor, tell everyone who you are and about

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Speaker 1: this book Five Bullets.

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Speaker 2: So obviously Carrie and I know each other through CNN.

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Speaker 2: I'm a legal analyst there and I wrote this book

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Speaker 2: called Five Bullets. It's about the nineteen eighty four New

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Speaker 2: York City subway vigilante shooting Bernard Gets. In short form,

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Speaker 2: Bernard gets shoots and seriously wounds four black teenagers on

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Speaker 2: the subway. He gets away with it. He ultimately is acquitted,

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Speaker 2: but it divides the city. It's the big thing that causes,

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Speaker 2: you know, a rift across racial and political lines. It's

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Speaker 2: was it an act of self defense or vigilante violence?

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Speaker 2: But also what does it take to feel safe? And

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Speaker 2: what are the actions people need to need to take

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Speaker 2: to feel safe? Now? It's really interesting and the biggest sport.

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Speaker 2: There's a few sports tie ins to it, and like

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Speaker 2: carry like your point, it's not forcing it. There are

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Speaker 2: two really big ones. I start the book talking about

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Speaker 2: New York City in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: how rough it was, and it was like it was

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Speaker 2: like nothing we know today, know the labradoodles and the

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Speaker 2: Whole foods and the lulal leomens. Wasn't there right? I

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Speaker 2: mean shit was burning right. And there's there's an anecdote

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Speaker 2: I tell about the Bronx in the nineteen eighties where

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Speaker 2: or in the nineteen seventies, where arson was really big,

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Speaker 2: people would, because of insurance rates and the blight, building

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Speaker 2: owners would literally set their own buildings on fire. And

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Speaker 2: at a certain point, like two thirds of the Bronx's

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Speaker 2: South Bronxes buildings were on fire or just rubble and

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Speaker 2: just destroyed, leveled. It was just an epidemic of urban destruction.

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Speaker 2: That's the scene that my book takes place in, well,

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Speaker 2: a specific one. The nineteen seventy seven World Series. The Yankees,

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Speaker 2: my beloved New York Yankee, twenty seven times World Champion

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Speaker 2: New York Yankees. For all of y'all who were not

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Speaker 2: who were not counting, twenty eight twenty eight has been

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Speaker 2: been a long time coming. Change, But we're gonna hang

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Speaker 2: on to those twenty seven well champions. But newsic, you

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Speaker 2: know how, I understand, I know how, you know how

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Speaker 2: it goes. So the Yankees are in the World Series

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven. And remember I'm not saying the

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Speaker 2: Yankees are or were entitled to be in the World

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Speaker 2: Series every year, but people expect a lot out of

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Speaker 2: the New York Yankees and it all. And it had

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Speaker 2: been a bunch of years since the Yankees had been

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Speaker 2: back to the World Series. They hadn't been back since

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Speaker 2: the ninetees sometime in the nineteen sixties, right, So it's

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Speaker 2: a big deal. Yankees are They finally were there. They

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Speaker 2: made it. But in the background of game, I want

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Speaker 2: to say it's game five. I don't remember which night

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Speaker 2: it was. There's literally a towering inferno happening, happening about

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Speaker 2: a mile away in the Bronx. And as Howard Cosell

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Speaker 2: is narrating the play by play of the game and

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Speaker 2: giving the color commentary and so on, this a broadcast

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Speaker 2: on television keeps cutting to this towering inferno building that's

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Speaker 2: on fire. And there's a great book by Jonathan Maler

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Speaker 2: called Ladies and Gentlemen, The Bronx is burning. Now he

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Speaker 2: didn't say those words on air, but that became the

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Speaker 2: lore about even in the greatest moment of sort of

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Speaker 2: Yankees New York sports fan history. The city's on fire.

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Speaker 2: The city's literally burning down. And so you know, it's

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Speaker 2: sports can unify as sports can be the thing that

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Speaker 2: distracts us. But at the end of the day, the

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Speaker 2: world might still be burning in the background.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And that's exactly what was happening. And I'm

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Speaker 1: writing that down. I'm like, okay, so talk to me

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Speaker 1: about that. And now, of course I have to go

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Speaker 1: listen to the Great Hallod Closet. Okay, so you have

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Speaker 1: this book, and the first thing that I think about

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Speaker 1: five bullets. As I'm reading about it, I go, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: yet again, history repeating itself. That's how I feel, just

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Speaker 1: as a marginalized woman. The first thing I think is

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Speaker 1: history is repeating itself. There is a white man who

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Speaker 1: claims to be defending himself against black perpetrators who are

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Speaker 1: attempting to rob him. Set the scene for Bernard Getz.

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Speaker 1: Who is he? And how do we find this man

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Speaker 1: on the New York subway finding himself in the position

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Speaker 1: of to be according to him? And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it was ever proven. You can break that all

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Speaker 1: down to mere attempted robbery. Four young black dudes walk

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Speaker 1: up to him and attempt to rob him while he's

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Speaker 1: sitting on the subway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so New York law. This is an important thing.

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Speaker 2: New York law allows and allowed somebody who's deadly forced

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Speaker 2: if they felt a robbery was imminent. Right now, he

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Speaker 2: gets on the subway these one of the four guys

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Speaker 2: approaches him and either asks sayman, can I have five

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Speaker 2: dours or demands give me five dollars. He's not mugged,

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Speaker 2: No mugging was imminent or threatened, but he claims he

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Speaker 2: was afraid that a mugging was going to go down.

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Speaker 2: And his point was that I've lived in the city

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Speaker 2: long enough, I know safety, and I know what's about

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Speaker 2: to happen. He'd been mugged once before, three young black

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Speaker 2: guys had mugged him at the subway. In nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 2: He started carrying an unlicensed gun with him everywhere he went,

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Speaker 2: and he pulled it on people twice before, I believe,

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Speaker 2: on one white guy and on one black guy. Needless

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Speaker 2: to say, guy approaches, says or demands five dollars. He's

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Speaker 2: convinced he's gonna get mugged, pulls out his gun and

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Speaker 2: starts just starts popping caps off, and he shoots four

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Speaker 2: of the guys. And apparently it's never established, apparently shoots

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Speaker 2: one of them twice, standing over him, potentially potentially saying,

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Speaker 2: you don't look so bad. Here's another and shoots him

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Speaker 2: in the chest. Now that's the kid who ends up

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Speaker 2: brain damaged and paralyzed from the midchest down as a

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Speaker 2: result of a shooting. And so, yeah, it's what where

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Speaker 2: it becomes old is new Carrie. Is this idea of

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Speaker 2: who we celebrate as a society for engaging in acts

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Speaker 2: of violence. Right, and Bernard gets became a bit of

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Speaker 2: a hero to many many people, and just sort of

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Speaker 2: the mayor and the newspapers are flooded with phone calls

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Speaker 2: in support of this guy. The police's tip line, they're looking,

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Speaker 2: they don't know who he is for nine days, and

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Speaker 2: the police's tip line, they're getting hundreds of calls. But

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Speaker 2: people wanting this guy to run for mayor and giving

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Speaker 2: him pats on the back and so on. That happens today.

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Speaker 2: You know, America does celebrate vigilantes. They're usually white guys.

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Speaker 2: But Daniel Penny, whom many people might know, is the

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Speaker 2: subway you know, choked to death, the Michael Jackson impersonator

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Speaker 2: Jordan Neely Daniel Penny after he's acquitted, I think a

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Speaker 2: week later, he's in Donald Trump's box at the Army

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Speaker 2: Navy football game in Philadelphia. And then a few days

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Speaker 2: after that he has a job offer from Andres and horror,

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Speaker 2: what's the biggest venture capital firm I think in the

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Speaker 2: world right now. You know, maybe Daniel Penny had great

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Speaker 2: venture capital chops before that and he just got offered

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Speaker 2: a job. But it is pretty remarkable that his claim

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Speaker 2: to fame was killing somebody whether it was you know,

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Speaker 2: the justified or not under the law, but somehow he

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Speaker 2: got celebrated for and he got celebrated, became a celebrity.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, lots of people do a lot of

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Speaker 2: things in America every day, a lot of most of

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Speaker 2: them don't end up in Donald Trump's private box at

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Speaker 2: a major national football game. So yeah, this is a

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Speaker 2: lot about who gets celebrated for committing acts of violence

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Speaker 2: in America.

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Speaker 1: I can go down a list of people, as you're saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking Kyle Rittenhouse. You know, the list goes on.

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Speaker 1: I'm really curious about what the tensions were like in

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Speaker 1: New York during that time. You explain the Bronx is burning,

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Speaker 1: but you were telling me that this man Bernard gets

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Speaker 1: or Bernie as he's been caught, right, he feels so

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Speaker 1: terrified of the allegedly, he feels so terrified of the

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Speaker 1: crime in New York at that time, he's just walking

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Speaker 1: around with the gun just in case he gets mugged again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, in fairness, New York's crime rates were like

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Speaker 2: nothing we know today. Like, by by way of comparison,

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Speaker 2: it's New York had a homicide rate of around two

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Speaker 2: thousand a year at that point, which is which is

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Speaker 2: only four times what it is now. It's just that

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Speaker 2: the subways are dirty, they're covered in graffiti and litter,

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Speaker 2: and people are peeing in the subway, the signs are

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Speaker 2: it's just it was just different than anything that we

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Speaker 2: have our heads around today, just mythically unsafe. Now he

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Speaker 2: gets mugged and he starts carrying this unlicensed gun around

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Speaker 2: with him everywhere. Now he's just this obsession with public

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Speaker 2: safety and crime. He the drunks on the stoop, the

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Speaker 2: people hanging out, any sort of He was constantly running

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Speaker 2: to city Hall with petitions and pressuring his neighbors to

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Speaker 2: join him the petition the mayor, and it was just

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Speaker 2: the one thing. And this quirky odd guy and everybody

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Speaker 2: calls him odd, this quirky odd guy, but the one

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Speaker 2: thing that just riled him up was was was set

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Speaker 2: was safety. And even back then through when I interviewed

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Speaker 2: him for the book, it was all about we're unsafe,

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Speaker 2: We're unsafe, We're unsafe, we're under siege. The city's under siege.

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Speaker 2: Everything's bad. The mayor and the city council aren't taking

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Speaker 2: care of us. Nobody's taking care of us, and it's

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Speaker 2: up to us to do it ourselves right, And he

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Speaker 2: felt like you needed a gun to do it.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like George Zimmerman. So yeah, when the old is new.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious when you call him quirky and odd, it

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Speaker 1: sounds to me like you might have been a bit

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Speaker 1: unhinged and unwell, not quirky. I wonder if the words

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Speaker 1: we use to describe his behavior are accurate, because I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that Yeah, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: could call him odd or quirky if I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Too many people just walk around with a handgun ready

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Speaker 1: to blast people, because I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: handgun because they think they're the police, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I don't think Kyle Ritten, now this is my personal opinion,

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Speaker 1: is healthy, Like anyone who was walking to find danger.

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Speaker 1: You know, when they deputize themselves as the person who

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Speaker 1: is going to save the city, something might be off

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Speaker 1: with that.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, so that's a beautiful question. Carry you know,

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Speaker 2: it's funny. I feel like, after having written a book,

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Speaker 2: having learned everything, there is no about Bernie Getz in general.

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Speaker 2: I'm just look, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a psychiatrist.

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Speaker 2: I'm just not as die no, no, no, no no,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go almost where you went. I'm not

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Speaker 2: in a position to say if someone's bipolar or mentally

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Speaker 2: ill or whatever else. But what I can tell you

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Speaker 2: is what I observed, and what I can tell you

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Speaker 2: is what people around him have said about him for

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Speaker 2: a long time. Like there's a quote I have in

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Speaker 2: the book Five Bullets that yeah, he was just he

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Speaker 2: was all over the place. He was quirky, he was

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Speaker 2: sort of unpredictable. I couldn't tell if he was a

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Speaker 2: SICKI or not. Someone used the term sicky, which and

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Speaker 2: I put that right in the book. Right what I

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Speaker 2: was talking to him, I just felt like I'm talking

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Speaker 2: to a guy. This brother is all over the place.

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Speaker 2: He's jumping from idea to idea. He's moving around quickly.

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Speaker 2: People who described him would say the mood swings and

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Speaker 2: the mood changes, and the one day he's nice, one

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Speaker 2: day he's not, one day he ignored. The next thing

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Speaker 2: he's like off of my business and talking to my

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Speaker 2: kids and being friendly. And so I I when interviewing him,

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Speaker 2: I just felt whiplash talking to this dude, thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 2: if this had happened today, would someone just say, hey,

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Speaker 2: this man's mentally ill. If this person we're going through

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Speaker 2: his life today, would he have gotten help? And you know,

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Speaker 2: again not a psychologist, a psychiatrist, but I know what

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Speaker 2: I saw. And to quote the police chief from New

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Speaker 2: Hampshire who interviewed him, Yeah, this is an interesting fella.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're using the real words. That's why we don't.

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Speaker 1: We don't take mental health seriously enough of this country

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Speaker 1: because there we're letting people walk around and calling them

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Speaker 1: different and they really need some sort of specialized help

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Speaker 1: with a prescription drug that's attached to it. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a licensed therapist either, but I'm like, are.

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Speaker 2: We Let me say two things in response to that,

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Speaker 2: and I love that point. One, were this to have

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Speaker 2: had like we're we're I guess who have been a

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Speaker 2: thirty seven year old today as opposed toent eighties or

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Speaker 2: seventy six year old or whatever else, right, we'll be

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Speaker 2: talking about his mental health. One. Two, the young men

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Speaker 2: he shot would have been regarded as complete figures rather

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Speaker 2: than caricatures back then. Back then they were seen as

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Speaker 2: the blackface of urban terror. Really, they were seen as

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Speaker 2: you know, soon after this so this is eighty four.

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Speaker 2: The concept of the super predator, the you know, because

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Speaker 2: crack hits the city in nineteen eighty five. The sort

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Speaker 2: of crackpowder sentencing bill comes a year later, I think

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Speaker 2: in eighty six or eighty seven in Congress, and this

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Speaker 2: word super predator really took off, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: people saw these young men as nothing more than their

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Speaker 2: criminal histories, right, that's all.

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Speaker 1: That's where we used to identify them in the news

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Speaker 1: as five ten black short you know, brown eye like

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Speaker 1: they didn't They didn't have any identity but simply an X.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious you said it took nine to ten days

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Speaker 1: to find him when you did interview him. What was

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Speaker 1: he doing in those nine to ten days. He had

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Speaker 1: to be aware that he was people were looking for him.

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Speaker 1: He was wanted by the authorities after he had just

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Speaker 1: shot four black boys on the subway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and I have a chapter, two chapters I

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Speaker 2: think on this in five bullets about where he goes.

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Speaker 2: So he actually hides in New Hampshire. He drives immediately

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Speaker 2: after the shooting, runs home, takes a cab home, gets

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Speaker 2: to his apartment, gets a duffel bag, rents a car,

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Speaker 2: and drives out of the city up to New Hampshire

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Speaker 2: and drives stops a couple of times in Vermont and

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Speaker 2: New Hampshire, stops in a bookstore, talks to the owner there,

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Speaker 2: and he's asking questions, Hey, have you heard about this

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Speaker 2: thing that went down in New York? What do you

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Speaker 2: think about New York? What do you think about you know?

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Speaker 2: So he's asking people how much they know about him

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Speaker 2: and so on. So he knew, he knew the jig

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Speaker 2: was up right, he knew, and he came back to

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Speaker 2: New York City. The police had left a note in

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Speaker 2: his mailbox and police think they think that's the thing

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Speaker 2: that spooked him right, that he had to come into

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Speaker 2: because he ultimately turns himself in in New Hampshire, and

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Speaker 2: the police, because they couldn't figure out who, they sort

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Speaker 2: of get a sense, we think this is the guy.

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Speaker 2: We don't know. We had some leads and they put

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Speaker 2: a note in his mailbox, in a note under his

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Speaker 2: door saying mister gets police, call the police, and the

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Speaker 2: police think that that was the final stop, the final

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Speaker 2: sort of thing for him that made him say, wait

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Speaker 2: a second, they're on to me. Let me turn myself

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Speaker 2: in and to your point, and what I think is

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Speaker 2: behind your question, how do we allow this dude to

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Speaker 2: just get away and not get caught? And how is

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Speaker 2: he not like caught by a hale of bullets by

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Speaker 2: police officers running him down? He thinks, Bernie gets thinks,

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Speaker 2: what's the big deal? I can just turn myself in

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Speaker 2: because I want to. It's like this is just a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 2: These thugs are mugging me in the train, so I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna tell the police I did it and everything

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Speaker 2: will be cool. Right, You're cool, I'm cool, everybody's cool.

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Speaker 2: And then you realize, wait, everything wasn't cool. He's about

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Speaker 2: to be charged with attempted homicide attempted murder. Right, But

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Speaker 2: it's just the entitlement and I use the word entitlement

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Speaker 2: through the book a fair amount, like whether he's just

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Speaker 2: brazen or entitled. He's just literally marching into the police

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Speaker 2: station in New Hampshire after nine days saying, hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: the guy you're looking for. He didn't even feed the

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Speaker 2: parking meter when he goes in because he thinks, okay,

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Speaker 2: just misunderstanding. You know, it's like I killed some guys

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Speaker 2: and or try to kill some guys in self defense.

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Speaker 2: They were going to rough me up. We're cool.

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Speaker 1: But I take issue with that because why do you leave?

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Speaker 1: Why do leave the city? If he really thought it

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Speaker 1: was not a big deal, why would he? And that's

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Speaker 1: literally what I say in the book. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: is it entitlement or cowardice?

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Speaker 2: Right? And frankly, and here's where you know, I sort

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Speaker 2: of take some issue with it. It's if you are

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Speaker 2: so concerned with law enforcement, if you are so convinced

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Speaker 2: that law enforcement is impotent and not able to stop

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Speaker 2: crimes and not doing their job. You know, when you

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Speaker 2: know they're looking for you, running away only makes their

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Speaker 2: job harder. And this idea because he kept saying, like

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Speaker 2: the police aren't doing it, the mayor is not doing it.

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Speaker 2: You know, they can't crack a simple case or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yet when he knew they were investigating him, his choice

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Speaker 2: was not to come clean. It was to run away

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Speaker 2: to New England and just sort of hide for nine days.

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Speaker 2: So you know, again, I think the word the words

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Speaker 2: I used in the book Five Bullets are brazenness or cowardice.

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Speaker 2: Whatever it was. It was just I'm so bold that

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Speaker 2: we're going to do this, or am I just afraid.

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Speaker 1: I'm so curious about this. First of all five bullets

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Speaker 1: is the name of the book. Please go out. It's

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Speaker 1: available now. It's a fascinating and just listening to you

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Speaker 1: talk about it and the who, what, when, where, how

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Speaker 1: of it all. It's fascinating how the old is the new.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting is I'm curious about your perspective writing on

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Speaker 1: this some and I don't do math. What forty years later, yeah,

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Speaker 1: forty years later, were there outside of what we have seen?

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Speaker 1: There isn't There's almost an innocence to the investigation. There's

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Speaker 1: almost innocence, isn't.

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Speaker 2: The word is a point right?

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Speaker 1: That is? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So you know what's interesting I interviewed I so the mayor,

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Speaker 2: this is Ed Coch at the time, Mayor Coch is uh.

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Speaker 2: He's waffling and wiggling on it because he's this outer

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Speaker 2: borrow mayor. He's from then what was then the South

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Speaker 2: Bronx of heavily Jewish South Bronx, and his folks were

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Speaker 2: even as a democrat, his folks were the white folks

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Speaker 2: in Queens, Staten Island and white folks in the Bronx.

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Speaker 2: And he was just a moderate centrist, tough on crime

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Speaker 2: mayor right. So he sort of went back and forth

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Speaker 2: on first he sort of issued some sympathy for the

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Speaker 2: victims and then at a certain point said, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: we got to do better on public safety per custom right.

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Speaker 2: So that was meyri Coch. It was interesting that I

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Speaker 2: spoke to the main police detective at the time and

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Speaker 2: the cops. I was surprised at how much they wanted

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Speaker 2: to catch Many of them wanted to catch him and yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: and he's because they thought because they thought, look, it's

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Speaker 2: an attempted homicide. This is an attempted homicide. I know

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Speaker 2: it's not popular with the public. And the problem is

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Speaker 2: that they it wasn't like it is today, where in

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Speaker 2: five minutes some facial scan or recognition or a license

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Speaker 2: plate tag would have him Like that, he would have

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Speaker 2: been caught the minute he tried to rent that car

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Speaker 2: with a credit card. They would have somehow had some

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Speaker 2: electronic record of him. Write Everything's paper, the lead detective

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Speaker 2: on the case. It was really interesting how he told

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Speaker 2: me that they found him. They knew that he had

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Speaker 2: tried to apply Someone named Bernard Gets in New York

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Speaker 2: City had tried to apply for a gun permit a

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Speaker 2: few years before, and they knew, wait a second, that's

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Speaker 2: going to have a photograph on it, it's going to

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Speaker 2: have a home address on it, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: have some identifying information. We don't know, but let's just

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Speaker 2: try to go there. So they go to his house,

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Speaker 2: they get in and of course he's in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 2: And the detective even said, I didn't think it was

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Speaker 2: good detective work because, you know what, I'm leaving a

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Speaker 2: note under the guy's door, but he's clearly not there.

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Speaker 2: We'd asked around, we asked neighbors and so on, And

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Speaker 2: that's how they think they got him because they knew

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Speaker 2: that he would come back at some point. They knew

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Speaker 2: that he would figure out that the police were on

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Speaker 2: his set, and they altered that's you know, a couple

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Speaker 2: of days after that, he turns himself into New Hampshire.

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Speaker 2: But no, he felt like they were They had the

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Speaker 2: resources on it, they just couldn't get him.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell reviewers why he was denied the gun permit.

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Speaker 2: In New York? This is interesting, So in New York

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Speaker 2: at the time, not many people had gun permits. A

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Speaker 2: concealed carrie permit in New York and The example was

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump had one I spoke to a no listen.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to Ah, this former executive at the NRA,

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Speaker 2: one of the one of the guys who was sort

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Speaker 2: of their policy guy from the nineteen eighties, and he

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Speaker 2: said that the kinds of people who got them were

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump and Eleen were Roosevelt. Would you believe it

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Speaker 2: or not, she was like Ms. Roosevelt was packing heat

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Speaker 2: for She's like she was tired of the shit. No

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Speaker 2: no home, was like carrying a gun for most of

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Speaker 2: her adult life. She was like a big like in

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Speaker 2: her purse or wherever it was. So that's the kind

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Speaker 2: of folks who had the most people's concealed carry permits

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Speaker 2: in New York and the nineteen eighties were denied just

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Speaker 2: because that they did. Now the Supreme Court changed all

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Speaker 2: that a few years ago, and now it's you know,

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Speaker 2: New York.

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Speaker 1: But now we can see why they were denied. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like if you just if you just looking at

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Speaker 1: it now in perspective, is I mean, goodness is twenty twenty.

429
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: He was more than quirky, obviously, but we'll use that's

430
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: for some that's for a doctor to decide. I would

431
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: like to discuss as a legal analyst, a federal prosecutor. Yeah,

432
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: your perspective writing this book probably was different, And I

433
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: wonder what lens did you see it through as opposed

434
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: to someone who's reading it and thinking, this is fascinating.

435
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: This is a fascinating story of how this man just was.

436
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: Like swish some people. You know what's interesting more than

437
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: legalanis I tried to reproach it as a journalist. That's

438
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: why I interviewed him, which I don't think a single

439
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: book that has looked at the case has either successfully

440
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: done or tried to do. I reached out to the guy,

441
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: got him on the phone and talked to him, and

442
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 2: quite frankly, I reached out to uh, the surviving victims

443
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: and their families.

444
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: What do you was this when you interviewed him and

445
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: the victims.

446
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four. I didn't interview the victims. I tried

447
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: prop dozens of contact phone call Carrie, I went on

448
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: Facebook and tried to figure out who the system like,

449
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: literally piecing together publicly.

450
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: You couldn't you couldn't get them.

451
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 2: I got as far as texting and talking on the

452
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 2: phone with Darryl kbi's one of the paralyzed victim, his sisters,

453
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: and ultimately they just didn't after you know, explained and

454
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: they just didn't want to be on the record about

455
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: the book. And I respected that. For whatever reason, they

456
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 2: an't tell me why.

457
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what do you what is your

458
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,239
Speaker 1: journalistic cunch? Tell you?

459
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 2: My hunch is that they they've been through it, want

460
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: to put it behind them. It's think about it. Their

461
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: brother was shot by this dude forty years ago, and

462
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: they just wanted to move on with their lives. They

463
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: see it as I think a lot of people have

464
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: tried to have tried to exploit the story a little bit.

465
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 2: It's just that this is their life and this is

466
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: their family and they just wanted to move on. Mike,

467
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: it was and it was It was powerful for me

468
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: journalistically too, because I was thinking, come on, I'm talking

469
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: to Bernie Gets. This is your chance to tell your

470
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: side of the story and have it all be a

471
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: fully you know, what what do they care right? And

472
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: why do they what do they owe me? You know,

473
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 2: and my repeatedly saying I will treat you with care,

474
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: I will round out your story. You know, they don't

475
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: owe this brother Elliott anything, and you know it is

476
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: what it is. I would have loved more than anything else.

477
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: The thing that kept me up at night was like,

478
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 2: am I going like is this going to be an

479
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 2: incomplete work? Because there aren't the voices of the victims'

480
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: families or the victims in here. Now. I still did

481
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 2: everything I could to round out their stories. I found

482
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: out as much as I could about their families, particularly

483
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: Darryl Kbe. He lived with his mother, his father had died.

484
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: This is so tragic eighties New York City black folks

485
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: in the Bronx. His father had died, so he comes

486
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: up in a two parent household in the projects in

487
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: the Bronx. His father is crushed as a taxi driver

488
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: who's crushed by his own taxi because he's fighting off

489
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: a carjacker, which is like literally the most improbably tragic

490
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: outcome that anybody could have had.

491
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: Right.

492
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, So all this answer is a long winded,

493
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: poetic way to answer your question. I came in as

494
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: a journalist wanting to create three dimensional characters out of

495
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: all these people, even this kooky guy who was the shooter,

496
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: but also these folks who were the victims but whose

497
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: lives were reduced to just their criminal histories. And I

498
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: say in the book much of what is publicly available

499
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: about these young men is their criminal histories. I have

500
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: tried the best I can to recreate as much as

501
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: I could about their past and their family lives.

502
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: I wonder if when we talk about vigilanti justice, and

503
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: maybe this incident was really one of the earliest like

504
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: true crime media spectacles, you know what I mean, where

505
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: people are like, oh my god, this happened here, and

506
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: you're fascinated because, as you said, many people called him

507
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: a hero. As they did Daniel Penny. Does vigilante justice

508
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: only belong to a privileged few?

509
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah? And Audie Cornish asked me this the other

510
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: day on CNN. How many black vigilantes can you think of?

511
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: And let's just be blunt, it's not just privileged few.

512
00:26:52,600 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 2: How many times has has a black man committed an

513
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: act of violence purportedly in self defense? Purportedly you know,

514
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: because the because the police have failed to thee and

515
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 2: been celebrated for it and ended up running for mayor

516
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: of New York or ended up which Bernie gets did,

517
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: and running for public Advocate in New York, which Bernie

518
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: Gets did, got a job from Andres and horror. What's

519
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: which Bernie gets did or got celebrated online?

520
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: Bernie gets, Bernie gets Daniel or Daniel Penny depending.

521
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 2: Got the job at at and Horror got the job

522
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: offered at him, and I don't know if he took it.

523
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,479
Speaker 2: Bernie gets runs from mayor at one point on a

524
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: talk about quirky and odd and maybe a little maybe

525
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: a little special, maybe touched, as they say.

526
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: I listen, listen, he has to be touched so.

527
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: That he might be touched. He runs for mayor on

528
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 2: a vegetarian lunches in schools and anti circumcision platform, all right,

529
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: And and the thing is it gets better. So he gets,

530
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: you know, thirteen hundred votes from ayor whenever it's a

531
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: bunch of votes, and somebody asks him or no, and

532
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: he's the folks supporting him aren't supporting him on account

533
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: of his views on circumcision. They're supporting him on gun rights.

534
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: And he's sort of wondering, like, well, wait, I'm a

535
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: serious person trying to raise serious issues and talk to

536
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: the public about them here, Why are people supporting me

537
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: on this gun issue? That he wasn't the center of

538
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: his camping because that's all people see about Bernie Getz.

539
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: They see him as this crazy criminal guy, right, or

540
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: crazy vigilante or quirky vigilante, whatever it might be, and

541
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: not someone who's trying desperately to talk about why boys

542
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: shouldn't be circumcised and why schools need more vegetarian meals.

543
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: I need this. This man is something. So what were

544
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: you able to for our viewers and our listeners? What

545
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: were you able to determine about these four young black boys?

546
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: How old were they and tell us a little bit

547
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: about who they were so outside of their criminal history.

548
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: Of course, they're eighteen or nineteen years old. And you know,

549
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: the toughest story of all is the Daryl Kb's story,

550
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: only because his mother, whom he'd grown up with, Shirley Kby,

551
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: really wanted more, wanted him to get out of the

552
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: cycle of this is the continuing cycle in the South Bronx.

553
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: She wanted more sort of you know, there's an anecdote

554
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: using the book about the trains going by the South

555
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 2: Bronx up to the suburbs in Westchester County. They used

556
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: to watch the trains go by and it's just sort of, ah,

557
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: can we get away from here? Can we get away

558
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: from all this and the story about the dad tragically

559
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: you know that is it's just indicative and emblematics. So

560
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: there's kby. They were between eighteen and nineteen years old,

561
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: all of them. They were friends or friendly and a

562
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: section of the Bronx called Claremont Village. It's this sprawling

563
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: housing project of the New York City Housing Authority where

564
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: they tried to smush basically a housing project the size

565
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: of a college campus into the South Bronx, right, and

566
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: it was heralded as the first of its kind, and

567
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: it was this revolution in the building of housing projects

568
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: now subsidized housing now and many people often see the

569
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: projects as they're rough, they're dirty. This through that, well,

570
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: for most of the life of Claremont Village, it was

571
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: actually a refuge from the world around them. It was

572
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: actually it was families and homes and friends and community.

573
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: And the thing that really robbed the South Bronx and

574
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 2: the housing projects of that was crack cocaine, because that

575
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: was in nineteen eighty five and this, you know, and

576
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: I interviewed an interesting sort of scholar of housing in

577
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: New York City and just of a person who wrote

578
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: a bunch about New York City Housing authority. Here is

579
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: this husing point that crime was on the outside of

580
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: housing projects. It was just sort of in the neighborhoods

581
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: and the communities. But the house, but the projects, we

582
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: were the safe space. They were home. It was family,

583
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: it was mom, it was everything. Crack, the introduction of

584
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: crack in nineteen eighty five was the thing that sort

585
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: of pushed the crime into the halls of the housing projects.

586
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: And they never recovered from it. And so this what

587
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: was it was almost like fighting a battle to be

588
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: to sort of to stave off almost the inevitable, and

589
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: around nineteen eighty five it just it just turned. And

590
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: it really that I think that more than anything else,

591
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: characterizes the futures of the four young men. Now you

592
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: know part of the I mean, I you know, I

593
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: was didn't want to. It's funny answering your question without

594
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: talking about their criminal histories. There's one fact that's not

595
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: criminal history, but it's what brought them together, which is

596
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: they were going downtown not to hurt people, not to

597
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: mug anybody on the train or anything else. They were

598
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: going downtown to break open video game machines. Because in

599
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties, if you remember bodegas and bars and

600
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 2: everywhere had everybody had a packman machine, and everybody had

601
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: a Donkey Kong and they were heading downtown to pop

602
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: them open, get some quarters, and that was how they

603
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: made money. And together the four of them had gone

604
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: down and done this before. Now the defense and gets

605
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: his Triald tried to paint them as a street gang

606
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: and treat them as you know, this was a gang.

607
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: It was a gang of hoodlums. It was a gang

608
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: of tusks that went down. No, they were not a

609
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: streak game. There were four folks for fourteens that knew

610
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: each other and followed this, you know, this way of

611
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: going downtown to get cash out of vending machine, out

612
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: of video game machines.

613
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: Fascinating because, you know, especially for me, because I grew

614
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: up in California. So as you're saying this, my eighties

615
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: were like the version of boys in the hood, right,

616
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: Like that was my indies. Like that's what I saw

617
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: as a kid, Like, okay, I get it. Gang been

618
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: literally gay members. So now I wonder what.

619
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: I just had a flashback to Morris Chestnut.

620
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: Right right, it is getting shot running down alley like

621
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: that I'm sorry I cut you off, and I just yeah,

622
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: it's hard like that.

623
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: That was a traumatizing movie for me, and you brought

624
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: that back to me.

625
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: Damnit.

626
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no it is.

627
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: It is one how I remember growing up as a

628
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: kid and be like, oh, did someone just get shot?

629
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: There's the cops run all the things, like all the

630
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: things that you're afraid of, but in a very different way.

631
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: I wonder I go back to the question of vigilante

632
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: justice as a journalist, do you ever think that? And

633
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: to your point, there are no black vigilantes. I can't

634
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: think of one. I can't think of one. DC sniper

635
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: wasn't the DC sniper killed himself though, That wasn't justice,

636
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: and it wasn't.

637
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: I'll take a step further, think about movies and think

638
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: about pop culture. Think about how many times, look, the

639
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: vigilante in a movie is never really the hero, but

640
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: he might be the protagonist of the movie. Right, And

641
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: so if you think.

642
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: About Denzel movies all the time, Okay, yes.

643
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: Right, okay, it's okay, Denzel's one Okay, training day, all right,

644
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: you got one.

645
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: You got but the protagonist though, but people loved him.

646
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: You're right here, a ch Okay, that's one.

647
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: That's one, okay. But if you go back to Death Wish,

648
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 2: which you know Berner gets, is that they called him

649
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: the Death Wish vigilante, right, it's where it's the And

650
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: if you think of all the other ones, Michael Douglass

651
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: in Falling Down, or Paul Curcy or Charles Bronson in

652
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: the movie Death Wish, it's it's it's feeble white guys

653
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 2: who are victims of crime that end up clapping back

654
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: and that it gets sort of celebrated.

655
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: You know.

656
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: The one that I talk about from time to time

657
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: is not even self defense, but I think Luigi Mangione

658
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 2: U for the amount of love that that dude got

659
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: online for committing a crime or allegedly committing a crime.

660
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: I mean, regardless of whatever anybody says about I don't

661
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: like my health insurance any more than anybody else. But

662
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: what's up?

663
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: Because you just think about him? No, you're so right,

664
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: Like I'm just like in my mind and I'm like,

665
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: and so you what you were able to do to

666
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: me that we still haven't that we still don't get

667
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: with some of these these vigilantes until much years later,

668
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: years later, when you interviewed Bernie, what was the most

669
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: surprising thing that he said in terms of how he

670
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: felt about the shooting. Did he can you tell us

671
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: what's in the book already, but in your mind sometimes

672
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: words can't necessarily capture what you felt, the energy of

673
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: what you felt while talking to him.

674
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: Beautiful question the unrepentant. I think, no self reflection whatsoever.

675
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: Literally not And again, Okay, maybe you feel like you

676
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: were under attack, maybe you feel like those guys are

677
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: going to attack you. Comma. However, there's got to be

678
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: a little bit of wow, I feel remorse. Wow, that

679
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: was tragic. It was fighting, and I'm not going to

680
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: say I'm sorry, but this was frightening and this was tragic. No,

681
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: it was. He literally said to me, those guys needed shooting.

682
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: He said it to me. That's not why I shot them,

683
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: but they needed shooting. So I'm sitting there in the

684
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: interview and my wife was in the next room hearing it.

685
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, not this guy doesn't feel sorry. This brother

686
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: is talking about eugenics. He really believes that some people

687
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 2: just shouldn't be here. He made a comment at his

688
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: civil track and I just again at his civil So

689
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: he's sued by one of the victims in nineteen eighty

690
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: apartment in the late nineteen nineties, Right loses a forty

691
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: million dollars suit. He's never paid it, but he says

692
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: a trial of talking about abortions and how the mothers

693
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: and grandmothers of these boys, these young men should have

694
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: had abortions, right, it's literally eugenics. And he really seemed

695
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: to believe and I and I didn't ask him about

696
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: the abortions comment, but I asked him about you know,

697
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: it sounds, from what I'm hearing, like you think you

698
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: can in an act of public service. I just like

699
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: to hear you say, what's your view of your of

700
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: the shooting today? And he just again, and I think

701
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: you hear me carry It's not a question of are

702
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: you are you going to fall on your sword and

703
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: say you're so sorry or whatever else, but just a

704
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: little bit of self awareness, man, like you know, like

705
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: just just a glimmer of even if I felt I

706
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: was under siege, I committed something for which I still

707
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: lived with for my entire life, and it haunts me.

708
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like he would be, if he were young enough,

709
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: a perfect candidate to be a member of ICE, Like

710
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: he'd be one of those guys. I'd be like, yeah,

711
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: I want to go ahead and enforce justice where it

712
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: needs to be enforced. Well, it's my take, not yours.

713
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: Look, I'll say, you know, he just sees it as

714
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 2: us in them. You know, I would say he's racist. Well,

715
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: everybody's racist, right, everybody's got like on a on a

716
00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: degree of on a degree of implicit bias to shooting

717
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: fire hoses at people with dogs, Like, everybody's somewhere on

718
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: that scale.

719
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: Where is he on that scale?

720
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: Well, he's on the scale of one using the N

721
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: word an S word at a co op meeting. We

722
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: will not be safe until we get the ends and

723
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: the s's. I won't say, like your podcast carried, but

724
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: like until we get them out of our neighborhood. Okay,

725
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: saying to me on the phone, the blacks were fucking

726
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: with themselves and the Blacks were fucking with this, and

727
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: the Blacks were doing this, and the Blacks were doing that.

728
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: So where does that put you on the implicit bias

729
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: to shooting fire hoses? Scale? Pretty far to the I

730
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: guess whether it would be the right on that.

731
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: It was.

732
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: Fascinating talking to this dude. It just really was.

733
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: Well, now we find ourselves today as we talk about this,

734
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about Minnesota and the and I can't

735
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: necessarily call ICE agents vigilantes, but it feels that way

736
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: the person to say that to me, it feels that way.

737
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: It feels like these are men who have real issues

738
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: with society and their personal issues definitely reflect and also

739
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 1: it feels as if it dictates how they treat these

740
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: people that they are. When I said they lost the plot,

741
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: the plot was for mass deportation they have There's just

742
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: no way that mass deportation somehow deviates to killing American

743
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: citizens and it still be justified when you look at

744
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: what's happening today. What kind of laws have been broken?

745
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: And I'm asking you, as a federal prosecutor and obviously

746
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: a legal analyst, what kind of laws have been broken

747
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: by Ice?

748
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: Well, we may not know because the no, no, I'll

749
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: tell you why we don't know. It was a big

750
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: reason why. And this this is it's an important to

751
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: answer your question because they're getting the federal governments getting

752
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: in the way of the state even investigating what laws

753
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: might have been broken, like they want to do a

754
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: joint investigation. I want to be clear whenever there is

755
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: a police involved shooting, it's older than Mom and apple

756
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: Pie in America that the state folks will investigate whether

757
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 2: there was a murder or a homicide or a manslaughter

758
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: or whatever else. And they're just not, it seems right now,

759
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: they're not allowed to do that. So what laws might

760
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: have been broken? At a minimum, ICE's use of force policy,

761
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: which I spent some time with over the last couple

762
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: of days, just sort of trying to get my head around.

763
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: You know, yes, law enforcement is allowed to use lethal

764
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 2: force under some circumstances, and ICE agents have a policy

765
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 2: that lays out when they can and can't. I don't know, man,

766
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: Looking at what we saw there, when a dude's on

767
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 2: the ground and y'all were the ones approaching him, and

768
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: the pepper spray and so on, it just does not

769
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: appear that there was such an imminent threat, at least

770
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: in the context of Alex Preddy, the most recent one,

771
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: that there was such an imminent threat that they had

772
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: to use lethal force.

773
00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: Right.

774
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 2: It just he's on the ground, took the firearm away.

775
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: Every possible reading of it, at least in terms of

776
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: what's available now that we can see, is just not

777
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: not jibing with their policy. So okay, So look, so

778
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: that's an internal policy question. That just means whether somebody

779
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: ought to get fired or put an administrative leave or

780
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: whatever else. Then law enforcement can be charged with assault

781
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: or murder. Right, you've heard the words probably qualified immunity.

782
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: People have heard that. And yes, law enforcement under the

783
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: law does enjoy some protection from being sued or prosecuted

784
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: for the things they do or even the people they

785
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: hurt on the job. That's that's how it's always been,

786
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: and you know that, this is how it's always been. Right,

787
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: But one can still be charged with murder or homicide

788
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 2: or assault or manslaughter or whatever else for the actions

789
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: they take on the job. And let me just give you,

790
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: like the clearest, cleanest example. If a law enforcement officer

791
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: right shows up to work piss drunk, which can happen,

792
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: and drives his car and kills kid with his car. Right,

793
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: it's kind of an ugly, ugly example to use, but

794
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: imagine that happens. That person, regardless of qualified immunity or

795
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: whatever else, can be charged with the vehicular manslaughter, criminally

796
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: negligent homicide behind the wheel of whatever else. It just

797
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: he just can't because he's behaving in a manner that

798
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: is so far beyond whatever training or rules he got

799
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: that he has committed a crime. Right Likewise, someone can

800
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: be charged with murder for killing someone on the job

801
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: if they are a law enforcement officer, if what they

802
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: did was so outside the balands of what we expect

803
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: law enforcements to be able to do, and that Minnesota

804
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: should be investigating that right now. It's just hard to

805
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: tell if they're even being given that chance.

806
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 1: If they are even being given that chance, is fair

807
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: riding and going back to the vigilante justice that I

808
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: feel is happening. Even though they have been military militarized

809
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: by this government that we have, they still it still

810
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: feels very vigilante to me. I thank you for making

811
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: the so that I understand that. I wonder. I wonder

812
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: when you when it's all said and done, what did

813
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: you want five bullets to give us in today's perspective,

814
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: in today's view some forty five years later.

815
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, it's one. Everything is more complicated

816
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 2: than we thought it was when we were kids. And

817
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: that's certainly I thought it was when I was a kid.

818
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,959
Speaker 2: You look, I was eight when I watched this play

819
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: out on the New York Nightly News, but it just

820
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: got reduced to mugging hero. That's it. And maybe maybe

821
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: mugging maybe not hero if we kind of like this guy.

822
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: But these are all complicated cases and complicated stories. One two,

823
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: I would just say, like I said, old is new.

824
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: We are still living with the questions. We even talk

825
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: about media bias and the whole chapter right now. Oh

826
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 2: and the whole chapter I have on the New York Post.

827
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: Rupert Murdoch took over the New York Post and shifted

828
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: its coverage into making people scared about crime, and that

829
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 2: affected how people saw the world. So all of these issues,

830
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: media biased, vigilantes, who gets protected, who's allowed to act

831
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: out their fears, who is allowed to feel safe, and

832
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: what it means to feel safe? These are all central

833
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: to our experience today. And I really think we can

834
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 2: look back on things from not that distant past to

835
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 2: really understand how we see the world today. I you know,

836
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 2: you've touched on Kyle Rittenhouse and Daniel Penny in time,

837
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: and I just still why is America so obsessed with vigilantes?

838
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: Why in this country do we lift up men? It's

839
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: always manner. So far, I've always seen men like.

840
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: The same reason why we're obsessed with missing white women

841
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: and little girls.

842
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: Because we've got they're they're protected, they're the protected, sort

843
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: of like a on a grand scale, who's more deserving

844
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: or most deserving of society's protection and who is going

845
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: to be protected when they clap back or act out

846
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: or even step up to the edge of the loss.

847
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: And yeah, sorry, I.

848
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: Was like, it's just wild. I just never just thinking

849
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: all the things. I have all these thoughts in my

850
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: mind right, but this is this is wild. I'm I mean,

851
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: first of all, it's wild because what you are just

852
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: reminding us is what you said right off the bat,

853
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: oldest new news old. I don't know how you want

854
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: to produce Like I just feel like we can. I

855
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: know this story. I don't remember, I don't I don't

856
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: know it, but I know this story.

857
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, you know when you'd asked me a quite

858
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: real quick you'd asked me a question earlier on what's

859
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: the most surprising thing? Well, you asked me, what's the

860
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: most surprising thing about talking to Bernie gets the most No? No, yeah, no, no,

861
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: but the most surprising thing in the And I didn't

862
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: know all this at the time. Literally, not just the

863
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: issues are old is new. Literally the people who are

864
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: the main characters in the story, Rubert Murdoch, Rudy Giuliani,

865
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 2: Al Sharpton, Curtis Sliwa, and the NRA are the main

866
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 2: figures sort of circling and not just were they all

867
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four saw something to help them repel

868
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: themselves to greatness. They were all capitalizing on this tragedy

869
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: to make themselves bigger and in ways you know, both

870
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: good and bad. Right, they were just but they saw

871
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: a moment as they were all young men, and not

872
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: a young man, but they were all in their thirties

873
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: and forties, very ambitious, and they all picked up on

874
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: the story. So literally the issues keep coming back, but

875
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: the people are still at the center of the American doctors.

876
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: Say, it's the still it's the same people, the same people.

877
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is so good. Anyway, five bullets,

878
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: everybody gone and get it? Yeah, man, what I mean,

879
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: you're so smart. We appreciate you for giving us this,

880
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: like for educating us and letting us know that we

881
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 1: got to set the tone with the nineteen seventy seven Yankees,

882
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: off the top of the off the top of the pod,

883
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: so we can understand what we were, what we were

884
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: dealing with at a time that many people may not know.

885
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: The history is why we have to know where we're going.

886
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: I appreciate you, so I want to tell you thanks

887
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: for coming on. I want you to have a wonderful,

888
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: wonderful day, and everyone go get the book. Five bullets you.

889
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: I've seen you everywhere. I've seen you all over CNN

890
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: promoting the book. I've seen I saw that Anderson and

891
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: you have a lot of blurbs here from a lot

892
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: of well respected people who are in the business. People

893
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: we've worked with, people that we know of. I think

894
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: that's that's nice to know that you were able to

895
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: do this work and then obviously have your peers remind

896
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: you that it was important work to do. So I

897
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: appreciate you very much. Elliott. You don't want to as superstar.

898
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to be on your podcast anymore. I

899
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: just want to figure out a way to have you

900
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: be my hype woman.

901
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna hype you out.

902
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: I'm feeling myself, I'm feeling myself.

903
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: That black women're gonna do a black woman even, let

904
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: you not be hyped. We will not allow that you're

905
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: gonna feel great about yourself when you leave here. I

906
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: love Elliott Williams. Thank you so much. I appreciate your friend.

907
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: Carry Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Carrie Champion,

908
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: produced by jacqueses Thomas, sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.

909
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: Naked Sports is a part of the Black Effect podcast

910
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 1: network in iHeartMedia