1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. These representations 2 00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: are more than just like it makes me personally as 3 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:31,436 Speaker 1: a Native person, feel bad. It's actually a lot deeper 4 00:00:31,476 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 1: than that. Our existence as Native people really challenges the 5 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 1: fundamental values of what we know as the United States. 6 00:00:43,396 --> 00:00:46,196 Speaker 1: The existence of Native people and the challenges to the 7 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: fundamental values of the United States partially came to a 8 00:00:49,356 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: head in July twenty twenty when the Washington football team 9 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:56,156 Speaker 1: finally decided to change its mascot and name from a 10 00:00:56,196 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 1: harmful and violent slur against Native people. While this was 11 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: a highly visible and highly publicized move, applauded by many, 12 00:01:04,116 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: for Native folks, this fight is about a lot more 13 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:11,396 Speaker 1: than professional sports teams making symbols and icons without permission. 14 00:01:12,316 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 1: When we define it as just taking from a culture 15 00:01:15,876 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: that is not your own, that misses the whole power 16 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: piece of it. The United States has a long and 17 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:27,156 Speaker 1: violent history of oppressing Native and Indigenous people. There are 18 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 1: over five hundred and seventy four federally recognized tribes in 19 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:34,556 Speaker 1: the United States and many others not recognize by the 20 00:01:34,596 --> 00:01:38,236 Speaker 1: federal government. That represents a lot of land and a 21 00:01:38,276 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 1: lot of life and beyond the government. In television, film fashion, 22 00:01:43,876 --> 00:01:48,076 Speaker 1: native culture is regularly depicted or appropriated without an eye 23 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:53,356 Speaker 1: toward accurate or respectful representation. Doctor Adrian Keane thinks it's 24 00:01:53,396 --> 00:01:56,396 Speaker 1: time for a shift, and that the shift is both 25 00:01:56,516 --> 00:02:01,676 Speaker 1: urgent and possible, moving the conversation from just sort of 26 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:07,396 Speaker 1: like representation matters for representation's sake, to representation matters because 27 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 1: you need to know of the people who's land you 28 00:02:10,356 --> 00:02:13,036 Speaker 1: are on. You need to know about your relationship to 29 00:02:13,156 --> 00:02:16,996 Speaker 1: this land. And for Indigenous folks, our identities as indigenous 30 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: are so deeply tied to being from the land and 31 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: from a place that it's kind of one and the same. 32 00:02:24,316 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: Sionagad Adrian Keene docadi squad de la juila Diega tongva 33 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 1: di Gega. I am Adrian Keene. I'm a citizen of 34 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 1: the Cherokee Nation, and I'm a Cherokee writer and scholar 35 00:02:41,556 --> 00:02:46,636 Speaker 1: and author of Notable Native People. Indigenous erasure and invisibility 36 00:02:46,916 --> 00:03:00,396 Speaker 1: is a solvable problem. So I know that you grew 37 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: up in California, but you grew up around a lot 38 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:05,996 Speaker 1: of non Cherokee folks and a lot of around a 39 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 1: lot of white folks. Can you tell me a little 40 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: bit about that experience. Yeah, so I am a citizen 41 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 1: of the Cherokee Nation, which is based in what is 42 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 1: currently known as Oklahoma, and that is where my grandma 43 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 1: grew up with her siblings on like rural Cherokee allotment land. 44 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:25,076 Speaker 1: And then she moved to California when she was eighteen 45 00:03:25,596 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: and met my Armenian grandpa when she first moved there, 46 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: and they got married and she stayed in California the 47 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 1: rest of her life. She's still alive, she's ninety four. 48 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:38,196 Speaker 1: That's how I ended up in California. But I grew 49 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:41,036 Speaker 1: up in San Diego, which is Kumiai homelands, but that 50 00:03:41,236 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 1: was not even something that I was aware of. So 51 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:46,436 Speaker 1: I grew up completely surrounded by non natives, and as 52 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: someone who's very like white coating, white passing, it was 53 00:03:50,596 --> 00:03:54,116 Speaker 1: so easy to be just completely invisible and not receive 54 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:58,196 Speaker 1: any narratives at all about Native existence, especially with the 55 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:03,276 Speaker 1: California state curriculum around Natives is like awful in elementary school, 56 00:04:03,436 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 1: high school. So yeah, just never received any messages about 57 00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:11,636 Speaker 1: the continued existence of Native people. When do you think 58 00:04:11,636 --> 00:04:13,636 Speaker 1: you started to connect with your identity as as a 59 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:16,036 Speaker 1: Native person yourself, Like when do you do you have 60 00:04:16,116 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 1: an earliest memory when that started to happen for you. Yeah, 61 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:21,076 Speaker 1: I mean I think I always knew that I was 62 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:23,756 Speaker 1: Native and knew that I was Cherokee, but it wasn't 63 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: something that I really understood what that meant. And I 64 00:04:27,276 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 1: have like a few sort of small formative moments when 65 00:04:30,476 --> 00:04:34,716 Speaker 1: I was really young, Like I remember, in I guess 66 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: it was fifth grade, we were doing the Native American 67 00:04:39,836 --> 00:04:42,676 Speaker 1: unit in our class, and our homework was to go 68 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 1: home and come up with a quote unquote Indian name, 69 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 1: which was the like very stereotypical adjective like plus noun idea, 70 00:04:53,436 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: you know, like running elk or whatever. And I remember 71 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:04,516 Speaker 1: I remember like knowing that I could do the assignment 72 00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:07,716 Speaker 1: and that that would be fine, but like feeling uncomfortable. 73 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: But I was young and not really you know, activisty, 74 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:13,356 Speaker 1: so I didn't know what to do. And my mom 75 00:05:13,596 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 1: was like, well, why don't you say your great grandma's name, 76 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:21,316 Speaker 1: Like why don't you just say, like Mona May McDaniel 77 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 1: is your Indian name, because that's your family and that's 78 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:26,756 Speaker 1: where it comes from. And I was like okay. So 79 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 1: I remember standing up in class and everyone had done 80 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:34,116 Speaker 1: the like running antelope or whatever because they're fast and whatever. 81 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: And I stood up and was like, my name's Monamey 82 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:41,356 Speaker 1: McDaniel because that's my great grandma and she's Cherokee. And 83 00:05:41,836 --> 00:05:45,356 Speaker 1: I remember the teacher looking at me like uh okay, 84 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:48,276 Speaker 1: and I sat down and everyone just like continued on 85 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:50,636 Speaker 1: with the activity. But that was kind of one of 86 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:53,116 Speaker 1: my earliest memories of being like, no, like this is 87 00:05:53,276 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 1: me as well, like it's I'm not that separated from it. 88 00:05:57,516 --> 00:06:01,116 Speaker 1: But it really wasn't until honestly, like college time, that 89 00:06:01,236 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 1: I really had the opportunity to engage more deeply because 90 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:08,396 Speaker 1: I was an adult with the ability to travel and 91 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 1: to do my own research and to ask the right 92 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:13,116 Speaker 1: questions of my family and that kind of stuff. So 93 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:16,876 Speaker 1: it took a long time because the erasure is real 94 00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:21,596 Speaker 1: and colonization has deeply affected all of us. I remember 95 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:24,076 Speaker 1: one year of elementary school they had us do an 96 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 1: assignment where for Thanksgiving where we had to take the 97 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:29,516 Speaker 1: paper bags and turning to vest and you did a 98 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: headdress thing. And I remember like, even as a kid, 99 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 1: just being like, it just seems weird that every single Indian, 100 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:37,756 Speaker 1: as we were saying at the time was all the same, 101 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 1: and I hated that at the time, but I didn't 102 00:06:40,676 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 1: know why. I was like something about this, but I 103 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:44,836 Speaker 1: couldn't put my figure on it. All of the depictions 104 00:06:44,876 --> 00:06:48,996 Speaker 1: that I saw of Native folks were always negative, whether 105 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 1: in the media and music whatever around us. What was 106 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:54,596 Speaker 1: it like for you besides having an experience like that 107 00:06:54,716 --> 00:06:56,676 Speaker 1: yourself in elementary school, but what was it like for 108 00:06:56,756 --> 00:07:00,676 Speaker 1: you to see yourself depicted or to see Native folks 109 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:04,076 Speaker 1: depicted in that way in media? Growing up? There was 110 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:09,916 Speaker 1: not a single positive reference that I remember in media 111 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: or popular culture or anything. Like I grew up with 112 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: Peter Pan and like the whole like what makes the 113 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: Red Man red? And then we got Disney Spokehonists, which 114 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: everyone thought was a sort of good depiction of natives, 115 00:07:23,476 --> 00:07:26,636 Speaker 1: and it did make some limited strides, But then that 116 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:29,436 Speaker 1: meant that everyone would just when I said I was Native, 117 00:07:29,516 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 1: would like sing Colors of the Wind to me or 118 00:07:31,636 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 1: like whatever, so they're really there was such a big 119 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:37,476 Speaker 1: disconnect for me where I would look at my family 120 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 1: like in Oklahoma and my grandma and be like, this 121 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 1: isn't represented in anything that I see. These messages don't 122 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 1: resonate with anything that I know about my family and 123 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:54,556 Speaker 1: where I come from. It wasn't even really until graduate 124 00:07:54,636 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: school where it all kind of came together, and I 125 00:07:57,876 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 1: realized that because I moved from California to the East Coast, 126 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 1: and in California, I mean where I went to undergrad 127 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 1: there was a very large Native population on campus. We 128 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:10,836 Speaker 1: had the large student run of pow Out in the US, 129 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:14,516 Speaker 1: and there was a Native American Studies department, and so 130 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:16,876 Speaker 1: there was at least an awareness of my classmates that 131 00:08:16,956 --> 00:08:21,476 Speaker 1: like Natives existed in contemporary times and were their classmates 132 00:08:21,516 --> 00:08:23,716 Speaker 1: and their friends and that kind of thing. But when 133 00:08:23,756 --> 00:08:26,476 Speaker 1: I moved to the East Coast, it was absolute erasure. 134 00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:29,596 Speaker 1: And so being in grad school and I was at Harvard, 135 00:08:29,676 --> 00:08:33,556 Speaker 1: which you know, is this bastion of knowledge and everything, 136 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 1: and to have faculty and fellow students in my doctoral 137 00:08:38,316 --> 00:08:40,396 Speaker 1: program tell me to my face that they had never 138 00:08:40,516 --> 00:08:44,276 Speaker 1: met a Native person before. Or to walk around Harvard 139 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 1: Square and see we had an urban outfitters and that's 140 00:08:46,916 --> 00:08:50,276 Speaker 1: where my blog Native Appropriations came from, was walking through 141 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 1: urban outfitters and seeing just all of the like stereotypical 142 00:08:54,996 --> 00:08:59,596 Speaker 1: and culturally appropriated stuff, and there are still plenty tons 143 00:08:59,676 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 1: of Native people on the East Coast, but it's just 144 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:05,316 Speaker 1: like such a deep invisibility that I hadn't ever experienced. 145 00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: So to me, that's where the connection was finally made, 146 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,236 Speaker 1: where I was like, these representations are more than just 147 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:14,236 Speaker 1: like it makes me personally as a Native person feel bad. 148 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:18,636 Speaker 1: It's actually a lot deeper than that. Our existence as 149 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 1: Native people really challenges the fundamental values of what we 150 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 1: know as the United States, and so it goes all 151 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 1: the way to our origins. Let's talk a little bit 152 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: about your blog, Native Appropriations. You started that almost twelve 153 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:37,676 Speaker 1: years ago, and you mentioned starting it after the reaction 154 00:09:37,716 --> 00:09:39,636 Speaker 1: to the things you were saying in culture, especially in 155 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:43,796 Speaker 1: urban outfitters. How's that work resonated amongst folks. I know 156 00:09:43,876 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 1: you have a large following, but was this a useful 157 00:09:46,316 --> 00:09:50,316 Speaker 1: tool to get people to see you to feel seeing Yeah, 158 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: it was wild. I started it solely as a kind 159 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 1: of like personal project. I mean back in two thousand 160 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: and ten when I started it, everybody had a blog 161 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 1: like that was the thing we were all doing. It 162 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:06,196 Speaker 1: wasn't a rare thing to the blog. Yeah, it was 163 00:10:06,276 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 1: the height of the personal blogging revolution. But for me. 164 00:10:11,036 --> 00:10:12,596 Speaker 1: I wanted it to be a place where I was 165 00:10:12,636 --> 00:10:15,876 Speaker 1: just going to catalog these misrepresentations and sort of have 166 00:10:16,076 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: a place where I could point to it and be like, 167 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 1: look at how ubiquitous this is, look at how deep 168 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: it runs. And then as I was doing it, I 169 00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 1: realized that I myself didn't even really have the language 170 00:10:27,756 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: to talk about why saying like this makes me uncomfortable 171 00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:35,236 Speaker 1: wasn't enough. So then it kind of forced me to 172 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 1: start articulating the language around this is harmful for these reasons. 173 00:10:40,356 --> 00:10:42,436 Speaker 1: And part of the reason I wanted to do it 174 00:10:42,636 --> 00:10:46,996 Speaker 1: is that I'm someone who is very uncomfortable with direct confrontation, 175 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:50,236 Speaker 1: which surprises some people because in the early days of 176 00:10:50,236 --> 00:10:52,396 Speaker 1: the blog, I was super forceful with what I was saying, 177 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: like very confrontational, like calling people out right and left. 178 00:10:56,316 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 1: But in real life I'm an introvert who is very 179 00:10:59,036 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 1: shy and has a hard time with that. So I 180 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 1: wanted to create something that people could just send a 181 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 1: blog post to their boss or to a friend, or 182 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: to a faculty member or something to explain a feeling 183 00:11:12,996 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: that they were having without having to say it in 184 00:11:16,956 --> 00:11:20,716 Speaker 1: the perfect words in the moment. And why these images, 185 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 1: why cultural appropriation is harmful or hurtful, and how to 186 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:28,956 Speaker 1: move past it. When I started, I was entering into 187 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 1: a conversation that existed, Like I wasn't the first one. 188 00:11:32,916 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 1: I was building upon the legacy of activists who came 189 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 1: before me, like Suzanne Shone Hard Joe and like all 190 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:42,676 Speaker 1: the amazing largely Native women who had been fighting against 191 00:11:42,796 --> 00:11:47,956 Speaker 1: Native mascot simist representations for decades. But the conversation around 192 00:11:47,996 --> 00:11:52,236 Speaker 1: cultural appropriation was still pretty new then in twenty and ten, 193 00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:54,636 Speaker 1: Like it was still an academic e term that had 194 00:11:54,676 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 1: come out of anthropology and wasn't really in the mainstream. 195 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 1: So to see the impact of that conversation now, to 196 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:05,996 Speaker 1: see every single day there's some headline about cultural appropriation 197 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: is wild to me, Like that was not a conversation 198 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:13,876 Speaker 1: that existed a decade ago. To see that is really amazing. 199 00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 1: Let's talk about appropriation. Would you talk about specifically how 200 00:12:31,396 --> 00:12:35,636 Speaker 1: it reinforces systems of power and actively erases Native culture? 201 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:39,596 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I think a lot of the conversation about 202 00:12:39,636 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 1: cultural appropriation misses out on some of the key parts 203 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:47,476 Speaker 1: of it. When we define it as just taking from 204 00:12:47,516 --> 00:12:51,316 Speaker 1: a culture that is not your own. That misses the 205 00:12:51,436 --> 00:12:56,516 Speaker 1: whole power piece of it. And so for Indigenous people specifically, 206 00:12:56,756 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 1: we're living in a settler colonial society. Colonization was not 207 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: something that happened a long time ago and now we're 208 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:09,676 Speaker 1: past it. Like colonization is every structure that we live in, 209 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 1: every structure we interact with, like the fact we're speaking 210 00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: English right now, like all of these things. We are 211 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 1: in an active settler colonial society. So that power structure 212 00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:23,476 Speaker 1: of the colonizer and the colonized still deeply exists in 213 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: everything that we do. So I have written about smudge 214 00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:32,716 Speaker 1: kits and the fact that white sage is being sold everywhere. 215 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 1: And cultural appropriation is not just about like that's an 216 00:13:37,076 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 1: uncomfortable thing or like that's something that we've been working on. 217 00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: It's not acknowledging the systems of power that are in place. 218 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 1: It's not allowing Indigenous peoples the power to represent ourselves 219 00:13:48,716 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 1: in the way that we want to be represented. Native 220 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 1: spiritual practices were prohibited by law until nineteen seventy eight. 221 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:00,116 Speaker 1: That wasn't that long ago. Like I was born in 222 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:02,836 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, Like that really was not that long ago. 223 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 1: So before that we could be like fined or sent 224 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:11,716 Speaker 1: to jail or insane asylums for practicing our religion, our spirituality, 225 00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:15,036 Speaker 1: and so now to see those things in stores or 226 00:14:15,796 --> 00:14:20,116 Speaker 1: oliver Etsy or whatever, it is completely ignores that history 227 00:14:20,396 --> 00:14:23,156 Speaker 1: and doesn't acknowledge the fact that this is something we're 228 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 1: actively having to protect and reclaim. So there are plenty 229 00:14:27,836 --> 00:14:30,596 Speaker 1: of things that Native folks are willing to share and 230 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 1: are very active about sharing and are very open about sharing, 231 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:37,196 Speaker 1: but there are certain things that we should be able 232 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:39,476 Speaker 1: to have the power to say that's just for folks 233 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 1: within the community. You know, as a black person, I 234 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:44,996 Speaker 1: think that's that's always a tough conversation to have with 235 00:14:45,156 --> 00:14:47,516 Speaker 1: anyone when you talk about culture or in your cases, 236 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:50,876 Speaker 1: some of the spiritual practices that are important, and it 237 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 1: seems like there's a lack of education there from the 238 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 1: folks who are taking from the dominant culture, who are 239 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:58,236 Speaker 1: taking from these subcultures or from these cultures that they're 240 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:01,636 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with. One part of fixing this could be found 241 00:15:01,756 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 1: in education. And I see there's a lot of debate 242 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 1: right now about talking about black folks in history and 243 00:15:07,476 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: what that looks like to each proper history to teach 244 00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: where black folks were in the place of history. What 245 00:15:14,636 --> 00:15:17,036 Speaker 1: does that look like for Native folks? What does it 246 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:20,756 Speaker 1: look like to reinsert Native culture and Native history into 247 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:24,316 Speaker 1: the larger American historical narrative and the world historical narrative. 248 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:29,996 Speaker 1: There is so much space for being able to do 249 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 1: that work, because right now the narrative that we do 250 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:36,756 Speaker 1: learn in schools is so limited and so one sided. 251 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:40,436 Speaker 1: And I think the challenge is that that history does 252 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:43,076 Speaker 1: not paint much like the black history in the US 253 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 1: does not paint the US in a good light. It 254 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:49,156 Speaker 1: does not, But I mean, the United States would not 255 00:15:49,356 --> 00:15:52,276 Speaker 1: exist without the genocide of indigenous people. And so I 256 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:54,236 Speaker 1: think that's where a lot of the challenge comes from, 257 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: is that if you start unpacking this history, it's not 258 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 1: a good and positive history. But the work I want 259 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:05,676 Speaker 1: to do is not just dwelling on these like horrific 260 00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: acts of the past, but also the ongoing resistance and 261 00:16:12,676 --> 00:16:17,236 Speaker 1: amazing work of Indigenous people all throughout these types of 262 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: history that were so devastating for indigenous people, there have 263 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 1: always been Native folks working for change, working for cultural reclamation, 264 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:31,716 Speaker 1: working for protection of lands and waters. And to me, 265 00:16:32,436 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 1: a way to bring non natives into the conversation is 266 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: to focus on those stories of resilience and strength and 267 00:16:40,756 --> 00:16:44,996 Speaker 1: let people see that. Well, we can talk about Sarah Winnemucca, 268 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 1: who was a Piute translator and go between settlers and 269 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 1: her community, and the amazing work that she did, and 270 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:57,676 Speaker 1: how she was an activist and really protected her community, 271 00:16:58,116 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 1: and through her story learn about all of those horrible 272 00:17:01,476 --> 00:17:04,436 Speaker 1: policies that the US was inflicting against her people, the 273 00:17:04,956 --> 00:17:07,676 Speaker 1: removals of her people from their homelands, and the things 274 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: that she was fighting against. We can learn about that 275 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,596 Speaker 1: painful history through the strength and resilience of someone like 276 00:17:13,716 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: Sarah Winnemucca. I mean, we as humans like to connect 277 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:18,396 Speaker 1: with other humans, so I think that there's a way 278 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:22,156 Speaker 1: to use those stories as a way to bring other 279 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: folks into the conversation. Speaking of stories, you just published 280 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 1: a book called Notable Native People, and in it there 281 00:17:29,716 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: are so many names and stories that you are bringing 282 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 1: to the forefront and allowing us to kind of round 283 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: out history. How far do you think that work like 284 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: this needs to go and does it only need to 285 00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:46,676 Speaker 1: come from Native people. It can't just be the work 286 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:50,396 Speaker 1: of Native people's. Everyone who is on the lands in 287 00:17:50,476 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: what is currently known as the US is on indigenous land, 288 00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 1: and you have a responsibility as a guest on those 289 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:01,116 Speaker 1: lands to form a good relationship with the land and 290 00:18:01,196 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 1: the people from that land. It's imperative that non native 291 00:18:04,916 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 1: folks begin to do this work on their own too, 292 00:18:07,156 --> 00:18:11,956 Speaker 1: of uncovering those stories of why the curriculum is so bad, 293 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:15,436 Speaker 1: or why they only learned about Sitting Bull and Geronimo 294 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 1: and not the millions more Native stories, and why most 295 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:23,356 Speaker 1: of the histories that we learn and in the eighteen hundreds. 296 00:18:23,516 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 1: And that was also what I was really trying to 297 00:18:25,796 --> 00:18:29,876 Speaker 1: push back on with this book, is I wanted to 298 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:32,796 Speaker 1: bring forward stories of the past that we're not as 299 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: well known, but then also really focus on the present 300 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:39,596 Speaker 1: and say, here are fifty Indigenous people that are doing 301 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 1: incredible things today. I mean, there are five hundred and 302 00:18:43,316 --> 00:18:47,996 Speaker 1: seventy seven federally recognized tribes and one hundreds more state 303 00:18:48,076 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 1: recognized non recognized tribes. And then there's Alaska Native communities 304 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:55,916 Speaker 1: and Kannakamali in what is currently known or well what 305 00:18:56,036 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: has always been known as Hawaii, and the vast diversity 306 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:03,356 Speaker 1: of experience and stories in those communities definitely can't be 307 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 1: represented in just the fifty profiles that I did in 308 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:09,676 Speaker 1: the book, so plenty, plenty more work to do on 309 00:19:09,796 --> 00:19:19,756 Speaker 1: that front. One thing that I noted while you were 310 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:22,676 Speaker 1: talking is that there's been sub changes. There's been some 311 00:19:22,836 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 1: high profile changes, I'll say, and I'm saying changes. I 312 00:19:27,236 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: say that very carefully because you know, change is a 313 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:31,756 Speaker 1: long thing that happens over time. It's not something that 314 00:19:31,796 --> 00:19:34,836 Speaker 1: happens overnight. And I think about things like the Washington 315 00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:37,716 Speaker 1: football team changing their name, or Deb Holland being in 316 00:19:37,876 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: the cabinet, or even a show like Reservation Dogs being 317 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:44,436 Speaker 1: on FX. Yes, I think it's very easy for people 318 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:49,556 Speaker 1: to stop at those milestones and say, we did it. Now, 319 00:19:49,796 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 1: let's let's let's move on. How do you encourage people 320 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 1: to push beyond that. Yeah, I think that's a really 321 00:19:55,916 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: important question because I think that's often where the representation 322 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: conversation gets criticized by folks from within community. Is that 323 00:20:05,636 --> 00:20:09,196 Speaker 1: thinking that representation in itself is the end goal, and 324 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:12,476 Speaker 1: that of course can't be farther from the truth. So 325 00:20:12,836 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 1: if we had Native folks represented at every sector of 326 00:20:16,396 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: society in every TV show and every movie, that would 327 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:24,436 Speaker 1: be cool. That would be important, And the visibility comes 328 00:20:24,516 --> 00:20:27,916 Speaker 1: with an acknowledgement that Native people still exist and are 329 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 1: here and will always be here. But none of that 330 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:37,076 Speaker 1: is really meaningful without actionable change on things like land back, 331 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: Like bringing land back into indigenous stewardship is kind of 332 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal of all of this and all of 333 00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 1: the changes that would come along with that. But to me, 334 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:53,076 Speaker 1: visibility is really the first challenge that we as indigenous 335 00:20:53,116 --> 00:20:57,556 Speaker 1: people have to overcome, because we've purposely been erased and 336 00:20:57,836 --> 00:21:01,276 Speaker 1: made invisible, because our presence is a challenge to the 337 00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 1: values of what is currently known as the United States. 338 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:08,636 Speaker 1: So in order to begin these conversations about deeper issues 339 00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:12,596 Speaker 1: of relationship to land, to one another, to non human relatives, 340 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: there has to be an acknowledgement that we are still 341 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:19,556 Speaker 1: around and here and engaging in these practices, Doctor Kane, 342 00:21:19,676 --> 00:21:22,636 Speaker 1: what would that look like? What are some actionable steps 343 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 1: beyond working for representation? To me, moving beyond it is 344 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 1: really starting for every non native person to begin a 345 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:33,476 Speaker 1: relationship with the land that they're on and the people 346 00:21:33,556 --> 00:21:37,676 Speaker 1: from that land. And that can look like well, first 347 00:21:37,676 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 1: of all, figuring out who that is, who the people 348 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: are whose land you occupy, and then looking up ways 349 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 1: to support their sovereignty to support the issues that they're 350 00:21:49,636 --> 00:21:53,356 Speaker 1: engaged with. Every community has a different set of challenges 351 00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:58,116 Speaker 1: that they're facing based on their local lands and governments 352 00:21:58,156 --> 00:22:01,236 Speaker 1: and things like that. There's a website landback dot org, 353 00:22:01,396 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: which is a good place to start. It has a 354 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 1: great manifesto that sort of lays out why this idea 355 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:10,636 Speaker 1: of land back is so fun to mental to processes 356 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 1: of decolonization. And I use that word decolonization very carefully 357 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:18,716 Speaker 1: because I think it's something that gets misused a lot 358 00:22:18,876 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 1: to just mean like social justice or like indigenous rights, 359 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 1: and that's really not what it's about. It's about the 360 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: rematriation of Indigenous land and life ways. So reading landback 361 00:22:29,956 --> 00:22:33,356 Speaker 1: dot org, it's understanding how that sort of phrase really 362 00:22:33,436 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 1: represents a lot. There are amazing resources, like in the 363 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:42,596 Speaker 1: Bay Area there is the sogorotea land trust run by 364 00:22:42,596 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 1: a group of Indigenous women. There are ways for settlers 365 00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 1: to pay rent for the land that they're on in 366 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:52,156 Speaker 1: different cities. So I think moving the conversation from just 367 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:57,356 Speaker 1: sort of like representation matters for representation's sake, to representation 368 00:22:57,516 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: matters because you need to know about the people who's 369 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 1: land you're on. You need to know about your relationship 370 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 1: to this land, and for Indigenous folks, our identities as 371 00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:11,076 Speaker 1: indigenous are so deeply tied to being from the land 372 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:13,476 Speaker 1: and from a place that it's kind of one and 373 00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: the same in a lot of ways. So learning about 374 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:19,196 Speaker 1: us through books and media and all of these things 375 00:23:19,396 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 1: is a start of that relationship to the land. I 376 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:25,396 Speaker 1: have two questions about allyship, and I mean and I 377 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:28,756 Speaker 1: want to talk specifically about non native folks and allyship 378 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 1: with Native folks. The first is that last summer, I 379 00:23:32,196 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 1: noticed that a lot of the momentum that came for 380 00:23:34,836 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 1: the Washington football team changing their name came out of 381 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 1: the momentum that came after the fervor of George Floyd. 382 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:45,236 Speaker 1: And I remember even myself tweeting at the Washington football 383 00:23:45,236 --> 00:23:48,156 Speaker 1: team because they posted a black square on Blackout Tuesday, 384 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:49,636 Speaker 1: which is what a lot of people were posting in 385 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 1: solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement. They posted a 386 00:23:53,236 --> 00:23:55,436 Speaker 1: black square and I immediately said, how could you post that? 387 00:23:55,516 --> 00:23:57,756 Speaker 1: If you with your name being a slurt, like, how 388 00:23:57,796 --> 00:24:00,276 Speaker 1: could you post that? And people went after them, and 389 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 1: it looked like a lot of that momentum snowballed into 390 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:04,916 Speaker 1: them actually making the decision because then some of the 391 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: larger corporations pulled their funding for the Washington FOTBA team, 392 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: and someone or threatened to pull their funding for the 393 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 1: Washington football team, and that paved the way for them 394 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 1: to change their name. What does that allyship look like 395 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 1: in a perfect world? Knowing that natives were doing a 396 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 1: lot of that work early on. I saw them on 397 00:24:22,276 --> 00:24:25,476 Speaker 1: television shows. I saw folks on John Stewart many years 398 00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:27,636 Speaker 1: ago talking about the names that need to be changed, 399 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,356 Speaker 1: whether it be Cleveland, whether it be you know, Florida State, 400 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: whether it be the Blackhawks, any of these teams. So 401 00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: what does that allyship look like? When is the success? 402 00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 1: Does it only come in large inflection points like the 403 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:41,916 Speaker 1: death of a very public death of a black man, 404 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 1: or or are there other ways in which we could 405 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:47,036 Speaker 1: do a better job of being an allyship? You're absolutely 406 00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:50,756 Speaker 1: right that the momentum around Black Lives Matter is really 407 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:53,556 Speaker 1: what pushed a lot of these issues that had kind 408 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:55,636 Speaker 1: of been like on the precipice of change for a 409 00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 1: long time. That pushed them over the edge. And I 410 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:04,676 Speaker 1: think that is a powerful message that especially for marginalized 411 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:08,156 Speaker 1: communities or even more specifically for Black and Native communities 412 00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 1: that when we come together on a lot of these issues, 413 00:25:11,316 --> 00:25:15,516 Speaker 1: than we're an unstoppable force. I don't even like the 414 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 1: term ally anymore. I feel like it's something that people 415 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 1: kind of like slap on as a button that says 416 00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:23,876 Speaker 1: they're doing a good job, and they don't they don't 417 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 1: really think about action, I like accomplice or like co conspirator. 418 00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, historically our communities have been purposely separated. 419 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 1: Within Black and Native communities, there's a lot of listening 420 00:25:39,036 --> 00:25:42,676 Speaker 1: and learning that needs to happen and unlearning a lot 421 00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:46,796 Speaker 1: of the messages that we have been taught through colonization, 422 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 1: through the media. Native communities have a lot of internalized 423 00:25:51,476 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: anti blackness that we really need to address and work on. 424 00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:59,356 Speaker 1: And for black communities, black folks have received the same 425 00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: media messages that everyone has received, stereotypical things as well 426 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:06,836 Speaker 1: as the intense and erasure. So there's work to be 427 00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:11,476 Speaker 1: done within black communities about learning a lot of those misrepresentations. 428 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:14,636 Speaker 1: Even though there's a ton of overlap in our communities, 429 00:26:14,716 --> 00:26:17,436 Speaker 1: tons of black Native folks that don't really get represented 430 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,476 Speaker 1: in a lot of these conversations. But I think we 431 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: need to look for those spaces and uplift them and 432 00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 1: join the work that is already happening, and not pretend 433 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: like this is a brand new conversation that's happening for 434 00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 1: the first time in twenty one. To me, that's the 435 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 1: dream is to be able to figure out the pathway 436 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,236 Speaker 1: forward where all of our identities and connections to this 437 00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:44,196 Speaker 1: land can really be honored and we can build a 438 00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 1: world that we all feel safe and represented and can 439 00:26:49,276 --> 00:26:52,236 Speaker 1: move forward in that good way in relationship to the land. 440 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 1: I think the biggest struggle that I've ever had talking 441 00:26:55,596 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 1: to other Black folks about Native issues, especially when you 442 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:02,356 Speaker 1: talk about things like land sovereignty. It's very easy for 443 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:05,076 Speaker 1: black folks to be like and me included and actually 444 00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: just talk about myself. There were times that I struggled with, well, 445 00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: I didn't choose to be backing, which is always the 446 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:14,636 Speaker 1: hard question when people talk about land sovereignty. I'm like, yeah, 447 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 1: I'd love for you to have it back, but then 448 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:18,756 Speaker 1: where do I go, Like there, it's hard to trace 449 00:27:18,836 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 1: it back for some folks, especially in the black community, 450 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:23,916 Speaker 1: and I imagine there's some ways in which Native folks 451 00:27:23,956 --> 00:27:26,876 Speaker 1: feel the same way about Black folks and issues of 452 00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:28,996 Speaker 1: blackness where they're just like I am Native, I have 453 00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: my own stuff to deal with here. Can you talk 454 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 1: more specifically about bringing that together and what is it? 455 00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 1: Because we know it would be effective, but how do 456 00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:40,876 Speaker 1: we convince both sides that it is because we're both 457 00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: struggling that we need to come together. Yeah. I think 458 00:27:44,116 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 1: it's an ongoing challenge and conversation, and I think Land 459 00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 1: Back is a conversation as a movement is not about 460 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:57,076 Speaker 1: replicating what was done to Indigenous peoples in terms of genocide, displacement, 461 00:27:57,156 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 1: all of these attempts to destroy cultural practices. And that's 462 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 1: another thing that like a lot of black communities share, 463 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:08,756 Speaker 1: is this like story of constant displacement from land. It's 464 00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 1: about creating a new system where we all can live 465 00:28:11,756 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 1: in a way that honors our relationship with the land, 466 00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 1: and that includes descendants of enslaved peoples, that includes immigrants, 467 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:22,556 Speaker 1: that include settlers. That's a conversation that is going to 468 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 1: be many, many years and decades in the making. Is 469 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:28,396 Speaker 1: not something that's going to happen tomorrow. But I think 470 00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:32,076 Speaker 1: if we can start collectively dreaming together about what that 471 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 1: future would look like, if we can acknowledge the harm 472 00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:39,636 Speaker 1: that has been done and has continued to be done 473 00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 1: to our communities separately but also together, and the ways 474 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:47,116 Speaker 1: that our own communities engage in harm against one another. 475 00:28:47,636 --> 00:28:50,756 Speaker 1: Those are all important places to start, but of course 476 00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: coming back to the idea that our communities have not 477 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:58,036 Speaker 1: historically always been separate, contemporarily have not been separate. There's 478 00:28:58,116 --> 00:29:02,916 Speaker 1: so much solidarity work happening, there's so much co organizing happening, 479 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:05,956 Speaker 1: and so many people who embody both of those identities. 480 00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 1: So I think it's a myth that we're incredibly separate. 481 00:29:10,556 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 1: I feel like you're talking about intersectionality and that a 482 00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 1: rising tide lifts all boats. Yes, let me ask you 483 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:33,756 Speaker 1: about your your own personal relationship to the land. How 484 00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,876 Speaker 1: did that change as you became more in tuned with 485 00:29:36,996 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: your identity and you begin to do more of the 486 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:42,556 Speaker 1: work you especially said, especially in grad school, were there 487 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:45,636 Speaker 1: any types of differences that you made in your relationship 488 00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: to the land and the communities around you as you know, 489 00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: grew more into this work. The biggest thing that has 490 00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:58,836 Speaker 1: helped me move as an indigenous person and feel like 491 00:29:59,116 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 1: I am moving in a good way in the world 492 00:30:02,236 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 1: is to build and maintain a relationship with whatever land 493 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:11,316 Speaker 1: I'm on. So I've grown up in very suburban spaces 494 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:17,476 Speaker 1: where the land is supermanicured and been completely taken over 495 00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 1: by cookie cutter houses and things like that. I've lived 496 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 1: in very urban cities, and I think the knowledge and 497 00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 1: recognizing that even those places that have been so separated 498 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:33,556 Speaker 1: from the indigenous people who come from those lands, that 499 00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:37,636 Speaker 1: is still native land. And so understanding whose land I'm on, 500 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:42,996 Speaker 1: knowing their name, knowing where they are now, knowing the 501 00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:46,516 Speaker 1: stories like from that land is really important to me. 502 00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:51,276 Speaker 1: And then finding ways for me to reconnect with the 503 00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:54,916 Speaker 1: land has also been very important. So making sure that 504 00:30:54,996 --> 00:30:56,796 Speaker 1: I build in and it's been hard in the last 505 00:30:56,836 --> 00:30:59,876 Speaker 1: couple of years because of the pandemic, but making sure 506 00:30:59,916 --> 00:31:02,356 Speaker 1: I build in travel that takes me back to my 507 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:06,396 Speaker 1: traditional homelands, which prior to the Trail of Tears, are 508 00:31:06,676 --> 00:31:10,436 Speaker 1: in what is currently known as North Carolina and Tennessee, Georgia. 509 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,076 Speaker 1: Being able to take trips back there is like really 510 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:16,916 Speaker 1: transformative and stand on the land that my people have 511 00:31:17,116 --> 00:31:20,476 Speaker 1: been on for since time immemorial, and that we have 512 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 1: these sacred sites that we know our ancestors stood at 513 00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,556 Speaker 1: and prayed at and we're there is really powerful. And 514 00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 1: then I've also been doing I'm working on a new 515 00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:36,276 Speaker 1: kind of art project around my own family's land displacement 516 00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:40,236 Speaker 1: to be able to understand that story of like where 517 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:44,836 Speaker 1: did this disconnection happen for my family in particular, so 518 00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:48,836 Speaker 1: I mean Trail of Tears, And then we had allotment 519 00:31:48,956 --> 00:31:52,116 Speaker 1: land in Oklahoma, but then that land was flooded out 520 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:56,996 Speaker 1: for the building of a lake, and so thinking by 521 00:31:57,036 --> 00:32:00,596 Speaker 1: the department engineers. Yes, And that's another thing that like 522 00:32:00,756 --> 00:32:03,956 Speaker 1: a lot of black community shares this like story of 523 00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 1: constant displacement from land, and so in learning the history 524 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 1: and sort of uncovering it, that also helps me to 525 00:32:11,316 --> 00:32:14,276 Speaker 1: build a relationship to the land, and that's really important 526 00:32:14,316 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: as well. And to understand why I have grown up 527 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:20,276 Speaker 1: so disconnected is that, like, this wasn't a choice that 528 00:32:20,516 --> 00:32:23,116 Speaker 1: I or my family made. This was a series of 529 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 1: policies and events by the settler government that forced me 530 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:31,196 Speaker 1: to grow up in this way. So that's a powerful 531 00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:35,916 Speaker 1: kind of reclamation as well. Do you feel optimistic about 532 00:32:36,676 --> 00:32:41,636 Speaker 1: Native erasure being solved? I think on this show we 533 00:32:41,996 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 1: say things are solvable, But do you see an endpoint 534 00:32:45,756 --> 00:32:48,156 Speaker 1: here or do you do you feel like there's a 535 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:50,716 Speaker 1: point where you'll say I've done enough, I can pass 536 00:32:50,756 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 1: the baton on what does that even look like for you? 537 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:57,636 Speaker 1: It's actually been kind of amazing in the last decade 538 00:32:57,676 --> 00:32:59,436 Speaker 1: that like I thought I was going to be fighting 539 00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 1: Indian mascots for like the rest of my life. I 540 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:05,836 Speaker 1: thought I was going to be like fighting Halloween costumes 541 00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:08,276 Speaker 1: and like these really low hanging things that to me 542 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:12,676 Speaker 1: just seemed so painfully obvious were harmful. And I for 543 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 1: ten years on the blog was like every year at 544 00:33:15,516 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 1: Halloween had to do another blog post about how you 545 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:21,076 Speaker 1: shouldn't dress as a Native person for Halloween. And even 546 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:24,956 Speaker 1: like this year I was watching on Indigenous People's Day 547 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 1: that a lot of my Native friends and like the 548 00:33:29,076 --> 00:33:32,476 Speaker 1: students at at Brown where I'm a faculty member, like 549 00:33:33,076 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 1: they took the day to actually just rest and like 550 00:33:37,116 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: being with their friends and their family and like be 551 00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: on the land or do whatever it is they wanted. 552 00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:46,196 Speaker 1: And in years past, it's always had to be the 553 00:33:46,316 --> 00:33:51,196 Speaker 1: big rally, the big talk, the big education campaign that everything. 554 00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:54,756 Speaker 1: So those kind of small gains to me, like they 555 00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:58,196 Speaker 1: seem I mean, they're not insignificant, Like the fact that 556 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 1: we can now be having a meaningful conversation about land 557 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:05,036 Speaker 1: back where a decade ago I was having to say, 558 00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:08,396 Speaker 1: please don't wear a sacred headdress to Coachella. Like these 559 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:14,636 Speaker 1: are progress? Yeah, I think, Like I said, I don't 560 00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:17,596 Speaker 1: think representation is the end goal. But I do think 561 00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:20,596 Speaker 1: if we get to a point where I and all 562 00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,716 Speaker 1: the other folks who write and talk about representations don't 563 00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: have to keep saying the same things about representation mattering. 564 00:34:28,516 --> 00:34:32,036 Speaker 1: If folks just recognize that Indigenous folks exist and still 565 00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:35,556 Speaker 1: exist and will always be on these lands, then it 566 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:40,116 Speaker 1: means we can have the more deeper, meaningful conversations, So 567 00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:45,636 Speaker 1: that to me is solvable. Doctor Keane, this has been 568 00:34:45,636 --> 00:34:48,196 Speaker 1: an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for coming on 569 00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 1: the show. Oh it's my absolute pleasure. Thank you. Doctor 570 00:34:52,836 --> 00:34:55,876 Speaker 1: Adrian Keane is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. She's 571 00:34:55,876 --> 00:34:58,916 Speaker 1: an assistant professor of American Studies and Ethnic Studies at 572 00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:02,636 Speaker 1: Brown University, co hosts the podcast called All My Relations, 573 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:06,396 Speaker 1: and she's the author of the new book Notable Native People. 574 00:35:06,916 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 1: It's an inspiring collection of profiles of Native American leaders. 575 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: It's available now. It has beautiful illustrations. Go get it 576 00:35:14,276 --> 00:35:17,476 Speaker 1: wherever you get your books, and check out our episode 577 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 1: notes for links to additional resources that doctor Keene mentioned 578 00:35:20,556 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 1: in this episode. Stay tuned for future episodes that dive 579 00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:30,276 Speaker 1: into additional solutions from native luminaries. Solvable is produced by 580 00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:34,956 Speaker 1: Jocelyn Frank, research by David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn, 581 00:35:35,556 --> 00:35:40,076 Speaker 1: editing help from Keyshell williams. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, 582 00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:43,956 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Special thanks to 583 00:35:44,236 --> 00:35:48,516 Speaker 1: Heather Famee, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, and the 584 00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:52,996 Speaker 1: whole Pushkin team. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Thanks for listening.