WEBVTT - Ep: 652: Hunting History 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.280 If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:19.320 can't predict anything. 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.800 The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.040 Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.520 for ELK, First Light has performance apparel to support every 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.400 hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.640 dot com. F I R S T L I t 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:42.760 E dot com. Joined today by Morgan Fallon and doctor Randall. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.440 Doctor Randall's just here to look good. Yes, if anything 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.280 comes up you need to talk about, they'll raise your hand. 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.440 We're just trying to interject with some quips, some observations. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.400 Please Mo. Mo Fallen Man uh uh, I'm trying to 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.560 think of where to begin. Well, Mo, found was the 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:07.600 original so a billion years ago. Mo, I'm gonna give 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.360 your I'm gonna help you with your bio. Then you 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:09.800 fill it in. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.600 Okay, go for it. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.880 No, how does it okay? Most longtime producer cinematographer. If 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.000 you've seen the movie I know this. When you were 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.759 a youngster, you worked on the movie Ali Michael Man's Alia. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.120 I was Michael Man's assistant on Ali. Wow. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.440 MO filmed a million episodes of Biggest Loser. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.200 Yes, ninety six episodes. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.240 MO. I did a show many years ago on travel Channel. 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.200 MO filmed all of that. MO filmed all of the 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:50.440 first met Eaters. Yeah, a bunch, Ye traveled all over 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.040 Hell for three years. Yeah, MO made MO made me 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.160 eater look like what me eater looks like? Yeah, you 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.960 designed the show. Yeah, I mean a handful was did, 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.120 but you like put you made the look. 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.880 Yeah, yep, I guess so. Yeah, with the camera for sure. Yeah, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.440 the way the camera interacts, you know, with you on 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:10.280 the show for sure. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.000 And at that time you were already doing were you 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:14.679 already working on Boordain at that time? 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.400 Yeah? So I started working with Bordain in two thousand 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:23.320 and eight, so it predated when we met. But that 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.360 was the reason I was able to meet you was 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.880 because I had done that and that had gone pretty well. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.560 And so zero point zero, the company that produced Boordaen, 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.440 they called me when they hooked up with you. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.240 Talk about tell everybody about just tell the whole story 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.480 of the years you spent on the Boordain show. The 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.240 whole story was I mean, like I don't know, give 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:49.600 me like ten minutes worth man. 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.360 Ten cool? 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.040 Yeah, I mean why, I like what, because that's going 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:56.840 to land us where we're landing. That's going to land 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.200 us with us, you know. I mean unfortunately it lands 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.800 us with us being so like reunited on our new project. 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.200 But I mean you had like you lived like a 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.320 whole you lived a whole lifetime. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.480 Yeah, I mean yeah, it gets into all kinds of 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.760 complicated stuff, man, because like I mean, I'll start at 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:19.080 the beginning. I got called randomly by a by a 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.000 friend of mine who's the chief cinematographer, one of the 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.880 two chief cinematographers for Bordei and Zach Zamboni, and they 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:33.040 had had a camera operator cancel last minute on a 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.440 trip to Egypt, and it was the phone call was 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.440 basically like, you know, do you have a passport. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.400 That was your in Yeah, a cancelation. 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.760 Yeah. They're like, do you have a that's a tough 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:50.680 show to get on sure. I mean, like, dude, I 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.640 was clicking my heels. Man, They're like, do you have 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.200 a passport? Can you go to Egypt next week? And 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.960 I was like one hundred percent, there can go and 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.960 uh and I went and it went really well with Tony, 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.360 which is which is rare, you know, like it's these 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.040 like a very kind of particular person. It was a 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.920 very set, you know, kind of particular set of criteria 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.080 that you kind of needed to meet to work on 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.120 that show. Like you had to be able. He had 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:17.400 to be able to hang out with you. You had 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.719 to be cool enough to hang out. You had to 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.360 not be a dick. You had to treat the people 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.919 who are taking us into their lives as if they're 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.200 as if you're a guest in their world and not 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.960 you know, some arrogant TV producer who comes in and 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.400 is just gonna, you know, stomp all over them. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.560 So he was sensitive to how he was sensitive to 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.200 how you guys behave to the people you were around. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.880 I think that was actually like the number one criteria man. 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.800 But but if you think about it, it sets the 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.520 tone for the whole show. The show is not us 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.960 sitting you know, five thousand miles away and my you 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.120 know office in Los Angeles and saying like, what is 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.840 the story I can tell about these people's lives? You know, 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.360 it was like the the show was like we are 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.520 going to go here and we're going to figure out 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.000 what the story is of these people lives and they're 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:08.479 the ones that are going to tell us, you know. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.359 And I think that whole tone was set by this 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.000 idea that you're you're a guest, and you are a guest. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.640 You know, you're traveling around the world and absorbing other 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.320 people's lives in a commercial enterprise. You can't be considered 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.880 anything but a guest, right, And so those were a 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.679 couple of like the just criteria he had set forth 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.679 for like people who kind of fit on the show 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.400 and worked well. I got that called I did. The 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.680 show went really well. I think he particularly liked me 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.800 because I was willing to risk my physical well being 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.560 and or life for a shot. You know, at the time, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.400 I was young and didn't have kids, so I was 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.560 able to make a lot of stupid decisions I wouldn't 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:54.039 make now. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.680 But you should at some point tell the story about Brazil. 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.800 Yeah, I mean that was probably more me overreacting than anything. 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.480 What's the example that comes to mind though. 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.160 Well, I mean that first show we went across the 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.680 western desert or a big portion of the western desert 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:18.400 in Egypt with the Bedouin, right, and they all uniformly 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.719 drive these late seventies land Cruisers, which is a super 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.760 cool car. But then this is a weird little footnote. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.400 There some places in the world where you go where 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.520 they drive land Rovers, and there's some place in the 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.359 world where you go there where they drive land Cruisers, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:36.160 you know, and a lot, a lot of the world 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.880 can be got two automotive choices. Right there are a 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:46.760 land Cruiser country. And I had no idea what we 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.839 were doing. I had never been on the show. It's 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:50.360 like my third day on the show. I had never been, 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.760 you know, worked on the show before. We're driving out 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.520 into the desert and I was like, oh, hop on 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.000 the top of the car and you know, shoot shots 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:03.200 of the cars, you know, slowly picking their way through 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.920 the dunes, and you know, like five minutes later, we're 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.320 going eighty five miles an hour. I am hugging for 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.880 my life this four post bed that they for some 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.000 reason had strapped to the top of the car, which 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.720 I still can't explain. I think they thought Tony was 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.520 some kind of like Prima Donna that was going to 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.520 need a four post bed out in the you know, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.560 the desert. That's man. Anyways, I'm like holding onto this 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.559 thing with one hand shooting with the other and we 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.280 get to we get to where we're camping and I've 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:37.120 got this just massive bicep size hematoma you know, on 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.160 my arm. Oh, and Tony saw it and that was it. Man. 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.480 It was like he was like started talking to me, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.320 he started asking me a question, he looked at me, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.440 you know, these like kind of novel things at that point. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:52.920 And I got a call from Chris and Lydia, the 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.600 owners of ZPZ after, and they're like, Tony likes you, 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.200 which is super rare, so like, you know, we're going 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:59.160 to do this a bunch more. 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.160 And that started. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.280 Ten ten years of traveling with him. Now that's that's 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.400 intermingled with when I got called to first work with you, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.360 which was christ and Lydia called me and they're like, well, 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.320 you know, maybe this guy will like you too. And 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.280 they showed me that original presentation piece of you sitting 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.800 in the park in Brooklyn. You grab the squirrel, right, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.840 pigeon pigeon, sorry. 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:29.560 You. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.000 Grab a pigeon, You take it home and cook it, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.560 and they're like, we want to this, we want to 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.559 make this a show. And it just like it immediately 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:44.839 for me, like I felt like it immediately clicked. I 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.839 was like, oh yeah, that's like that's super cinematic, super dynamics, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.040 a really interesting philosophy. It's totally unlike anything I'd ever 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.760 seen before. And they called me to come and do 0:08:54.840 --> 0:09:00.560 that original presentation piece we did where we're we're in 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.800 the you know, in the swamp up by your house, yep. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.600 And it was like I think we met in like 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.680 a out back parking lot or something, and within half 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:11.800 an hour we were like neck deep in a swamp 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.360 and I was like totally hooked, man, totally hooked. 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:21.280 That was the Miskegan River Marsh, Yeah, yeah, and Miskegan. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.880 That's that's the county I grew up in, a Michigan Miskegan. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.040 I should go fact check this. I've heard it my 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.959 whole life. Song of trust. It is true. Miskegan means 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.719 it's it's a native word that means big swamp. M 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.640 I hope there you go. That's well, you know, I 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.840 can say this, I can say that's what they told me. 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:41.520 They told me that. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.200 But the thing but you know, the important thing about 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.040 that and the reason I remember that moment so well, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.480 it's just like it all it just all clicked, you know, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.800 you're like, oh, this is like, this is kind of 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.760 the best of both worlds, because you wanted to make 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.880 TV that was about like ideas, you know, and at 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.480 the same time like it had the inherent kind of 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.520 action and dirtiness and kind of throwing yourself into a swamp. 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.720 That that that makes for good TV. 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.320 It's from an Algonquin word meaning Marshie River. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.320 Enough, very like. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.040 Phil could get his paycheck just for doing a little 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:25.600 ship like that, just saving the day. Tell me again 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:26.439 what it means, Phil. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:28.920 It's an Algonquin word meaning Marshi River. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.160 God, that's exactly what it is too. Yeah. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.040 I wonder where they got it. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.000 Never thought look that up. Good job, Phil, Oh yeah anytime. Yeah, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.679 they really gone through life saying it meant big swamp, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.560 and you would have been right sort of. Do I 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:50.760 want to tell the No, I'm not gonna tell the joke. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:55.839 Growing up? What it meant? You were through everything we've 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.880 talked about so far. You're you were a camera guy. Yeah, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.439 and you like you don't uh for listeners, Moe is 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.720 the most most kind of bashful, modest You were an 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:08.720 exceptional camera guy. 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:15.040 Yeah, this at this particular little niche of this World. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.680 Yeah, yeah, very much. So, Yeah, Mo was a exceptional cameraman, 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:25.000 was uh combining. Nominated an Emmy, but I should just 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.480 say nominated for Emmy. Did you ever win an enemy? 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:28.319 Did you win one? 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.200 I've got yeah, I've got two in two different categories 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:33.520 and ten nominations. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.400 Geez, what did you get the two? 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.000 It one for cinematography and one for producing. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.599 Oh okay, yeah, okay, I knew you were nominated, but 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.080 I guess I spaced the fact that you won one. Yeah. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.600 Oh, I sat through a lot of long ceremonies without one, 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.679 so you get to the end, like over four and 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.280 a half hours. In my life, I think the best 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.960 example of that is what we got nominated up against 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.920 Free Solo. And so when we're sitting next to the 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.280 you know, we're sitting next to them, and the whole 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.400 time just being like, I mean, there's. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.959 Yeah, it's just like that was going to play out. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.240 Oh yeah, I mean it's like take a canoe out 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:21.040 against like the USS Lincoln. Yeah, you can paddle a 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.360 good canoe, man, but it's only so much you can do. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.000 And then uh, you moved out of that eventually got 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.040 into producing, yeah, and then produced like a bunch of episodes. 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.400 Yeah, yeah, that was kind of twofold. You know, like 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:42.600 I came up always in camera because during that original 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.440 job working for Michael mann I, he had just handed 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:46.760 me a camera at one point he was just like, 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:51.160 shoot everything that happens, you know, backstage, which was like 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.959 not a normal film for cool shit happening backstage. It's 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:58.920 like you're hanging out at the gym with like all 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.880 e and those kinds of things. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:02.760 So I started. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.320 I filmed a bunch of behind the scenes stuff and 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.040 they used a bunch of it to make this HBO 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.160 documentary about the film. And that's what got me started shooting. 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:19.120 It's like it never required cameras, never required any real 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.760 training or effort. I pick them up and it just 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.800 inherently understood everything I needed to understand to be an 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:32.680 exceptional camera operator. And it just clicked for me, you know. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.120 And the ninety six episodes The Biggest Loser. It's funny now, 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.160 but that show shot me to you taught me to shoot. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.559 You know. It's like you're ten hours a day, you 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.040 got the camera on your shoulder and you're just constantly 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.080 having to figure out the geometry of camera blocking and 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.000 movement and telling characters stories and tying things in together, 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.480 all the stuff that you need to do to be 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.000 a good camera operator. We were just practicing it every day. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:00.920 And so when I got out in the field with you, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.360 and I got out in the field with Tony, I 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.880 was able to use all of those like narrative tools 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.600 as well as just Yet at that time in my 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.200 life was like a total athlete and a badass. Not 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:13.240 anymore at all. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.200 Yeah, you know, you should, you know, you should tell 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.920 people Box it's interesting about you is a mo your 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.080 your folks taught at a boarding school. Ye, and then 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.400 you went to the boarding school. So you were like 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.520 a towny yeah, and a student. 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:29.920 Yeah. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.160 Yeah, if you know what I. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.480 Mean, Yeah I do. I totally know what you mean. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.120 And if for any I don't mean you, I mean folks. Oh, no, 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.040 you were a town student, right, for anyone. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.880 Who grew up in a town with a boarding school, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.960 you'll understand the dynamic, especially an East Coast boarding school. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:53.320 It's uh, it's it's an interesting it is an interesting dynamic. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.760 I got the worst of both worlds. 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:56.600 Oh, I thought you maybe best. I think you got 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:57.080 the best. 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.680 Of both worlds. I didn't get the best of. 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.080 Both worlds ha and the students. 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.800 To the townies, I was, I was like, you know, 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.600 I was like a stale prep schooler yea. And to 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.000 the you know, to the students, I was like a 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.720 faculty brat Towney. You know, I didn't really so it 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.640 was miserable for the first three years. And then like 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.840 and then I realized, like, wait a second, I have 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.600 a car, and I can go wherever I want. And uh, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.840 you know, I I can. I can exist with all 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.440 the benefits of being from town. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:32.920 Uh. 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:39.040 And I can. I can you know, choose from the flock. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:45.600 Of of of of all these you know, really beautiful, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.480 blue blooded you know prep school girls got that. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.640 It ended up working out pretty well in the And 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:55.680 this is in New Hampshire. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:56.920 It's in New Hampshire. 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.080 Yeah, did you grow up around ken Burns like in 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:00.680 his zone? 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.360 Now? I mean, well, if you grow up in New Hampshire, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.400 you grow up around everyone else who's in New Hampshire, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.120 you know, just by proximity the size of the state. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:11.400 So he was about an hour away. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:12.920 Yeah. And what was that lake you guys are. 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.960 On We're on winnipes hockey. Yeah, it was great lake beautiful. Yeah, 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:17.600 it stunning. 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.080 How was when you when you got out of being 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:25.320 a camera guy, Yeah, and you you moved into producing, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.880 How did you ever get over the feeling of wanting 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:30.880 to yank the cameras away from the camera guys. 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.040 Yeah it was. It was really hard for a long 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.720 time and created quick a fair amount of conflict with 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.840 camera sure, cinematographers on set, but. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:42.600 Give me that thing. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.760 Yeah, and that was a lot fiery, Yeah, a lot 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.920 more fiery then at that point my lex stomp over 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.840 and grab the camera and pull it off the tripod, 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:56.200 and you know, not not not good behavior. As I've 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.680 gotten older and I've become more seasoned as a producer 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.920 and director, I've learned to be much more mellow about 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.320 the mistakes I see in camera, and much more constructive, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.400 and you know about how how kind of interact with 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.600 with camera folks and and use the fact that I 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.320 can speak their language in a way that isn't just 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.760 like completely insulting and demoralizing to them. 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.560 Yeah. Yeah, so uh. In total, how many years as 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.800 you spent working on the various bord Ain properties? 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.480 Ten ten years with Tony It's like it comes out 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.800 to like seventy five shows or something that were that 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:42.119 are either produced or shot directed. I for a couple 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:43.800 of the shows. At the very end, I was co 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.720 directing with my wife, which was awesome, kind of the 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:48.880 best part of the experience. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.400 And then that ship was just all of a sudden, uh, 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:58.600 just over. I mean, you know, we've talked about it 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.480 a little bit, but if you wouldn't mind, it's kind 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.440 of giving people an idea of what, you know, the 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.240 degree to which any job for ten years, but not 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.760 only you know, any job you have for ten years, 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.119 and so abruptly and so tragically, but the way it was, 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:21.600 the way that kind of work really created a they 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.280 created like a complete lifestyle. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:29.200 Yeah, yeah, a lifestyle that was, like say, I mean, 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.520 incredibly awesome at times and in certain way is not 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:45.439 super healthy, and an absolutely extraordinary opportunity to see the 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.440 world in a way that only a very, very very 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.520 small handful of people get to see it. I try 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:55.919 to tell the story of what it was like, and 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:57.919 you can only really do it by, you know, in 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.920 a million different little pieces anecdotes and this and that, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.960 But you can't really ever, you can't really, I can't 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:11.680 really ever articulate the full experience. I try to tell 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.159 people this thing that I think some people get and 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.880 a lot of people don't. But there's a scene at 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:21.560 the end of Lord of the Rings, right the new movies, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:27.439 where they've just gone on this like unbelievable adventure that 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.200 like really only the four of them understand, and they 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.480 go back to the Shire and they're they're sitting back 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.159 in their favorite bar and the Shire and everyone's carrying 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.680 on around them, and they just kind of sit there 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.080 in silence and look at each other. And I guess 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.080 that's how I feel about It's a there's a very 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.919 small group of people who went through that experience with me, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.639 and when I'm with them, we understand each other and 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.879 implicitly understand the experience. We went through, the highs and lows, 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.679 the ending, all of the all of the things that 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.960 came with it. But I can't really I can't, you know, 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.040 the world around that goes on in a way that 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.280 I can't really see in the same way anymore, And 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.520 I can't really explain it to the people, even the 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.760 people I love. Luckily, my wife got to work on it, 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.040 so she understands. My dad asks about it all the time. 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.960 I can't really fully explain it. It's I think I 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.919 would imagine and in no way am I comparing myself 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:23.720 to a soldier, but I would imagine it's the same 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.200 kind of thing that soldiers go through, where they they 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:32.199 can only really fully understand the experience between themselves, you know, 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.720 and when they're together, there's a comfort that comes by 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.359 that kind of shared experience, and outside of it, there's 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:45.760 a kind of discomfort. You know. I believe we went 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.960 through very similar things, you know, on the on Mediator 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.440 and on wild Within before that, where as we try 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.720 to figure things out, how do you really how do 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.760 you really explain you know, those experiences. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.000 Yeah, at that at that age, you know, at that 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.440 age and time, it sounds so weird. But I would 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.680 have a hard time. Uh, I would have a hard 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:11.720 time bouncing from the one world to the other. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:14.720 Between the two worlds. 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.440 Just going like I wanted to be home and loved 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:19.919 being home, but it was it was the pacing was 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:20.399 so different. 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:21.160 It was super hard. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:22.240 Yeah, it would become weird. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.280 It was super hard. And for a long time I'd 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.800 come home and like, you know, my wife would getting 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.920 fights and there's all kinds of like and I'm like oh, so, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.520 you know, eventually you realize it's like it's all me 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.359 and what I'm bringing back into the house. I learned 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:39.280 over time how to decompress in the hour ride from 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.200 the airport to home and not bring it in the house. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.600 But it took me a long time and some more 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.119 maturity to be able to figure that out, because for 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.280 a long time I'd carry all of that energy back 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:50.720 in the house. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:56.640 Yeah. Years ago, my wife told me, just detecting that 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:01.160 little bit of uh that travels a lot for work. 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.160 Probably aren't stand it, but like coming out of one's pacing, 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.400 coming out of one thing and then moving into a household, 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:13.720 especially little kids, and you're with these kind of you're 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.680 with like really high performing people and a fast paced thing, 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:19.840 and you're focused on a single thing and you're kind 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:21.920 of like camping out or living out, and all of 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.240 a sudden you're in and like little kids. And she 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.840 I'd never called her bluff, but she would say, hey, 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.440 if you need to, why don't you when you come 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.480 home go stay in a hotel for night? Yeah then 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.680 come yeah, And I got the message, and I never 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.040 did that totally. I think that would have been the 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.000 one worst thing you know, but it's like, but when 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:42.639 you come in the house, man, you're walking into an 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.240 active household like little kids, you know what I mean, 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.160 you got to transition quick. And their thing that she'd 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.720 always said is she's like, if it's not a big 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:52.760 deal when you go away, and you don't want it 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:54.199 to be a big deal when you go away. You 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.120 want to just slip out the door. It's not gonna 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.240 be a big deal when you come home. Right, it's 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.600 not gonna be like balloons and shit. Right, You're walking 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.760 into an active environment and you gotta get with the program. 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:08.840 Well, you're working. I was just gonna say, you're walking 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:10.960 into a program. And I think that's the difference. And 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:15.440 when you talk about like documentary, you know, making documentary content, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.800 I think it's actually particularly different than other kinds of 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.960 work too, because you're in such a reactive environment. You're 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:29.040 constantly reacting to sensory input that's coming in in the environment, 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.679 and so you're super high key, you know, trying to 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.280 figure out all of all of these things and what 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:37.720 does it mean and how do you navigate this to 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:42.159 tell the story. And then there's logistics and physical just 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.439 the sheer physical nature of going out and shooting in 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.680 these environments. All of it has you in this very 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.480 visceral mode and then you're like walking back into like 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:57.439 a program with like really specific you know, structure and 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.239 guidelines and it needs to be that way. 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:01.720 Ton of night, Like let's go get an ice cream. 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:03.600 It's hard to code switch. 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.920 Nope, not going to get an ice cream ten o'clock totally. 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.680 So yeah, I mean that's a big that's a that's 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:14.000 definitely a big part of it, A big part of 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.160 it all along in terms of making a relationship and 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:18.800 like a household work. 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:26.080 And you filmed the you did the last correct me 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:29.960 if I'm wrong, but you're you directed the very like 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.720 the last ever board in episode because the last one 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:35.040 didn't become one, right. 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:37.720 The last two didn't become one, so. 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.120 So they never they didn't finish your Italy one. 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:41.440 No, it was shelved. 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:44.200 It was you wrapped the episode. 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:46.640 Yeah, we shot the whole thing. It was it was 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:51.840 it was. It was probably from a selfish perspective, best 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:52.639 episode of TV. I. 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.520 I guess it makes sense because all the post production everything, 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.600 and yeah, well it's. 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:03.400 We produced shows after Tony had died, Like I did 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:06.280 a show in Marfa and in West Texas. It was 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:08.760 all inspired by the time we had spent down there 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.399 and that show. Tony died before we finished that show, 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:16.800 and so you can watch that show and there's none 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:21.800 of his kind of very famous voiceover the show is 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:26.320 it's it's looser. It doesn't have that connective tissue because 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:30.479 he wasn't around to record it. In the case of Florence, like, 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:33.680 there were things in the show that were just simply 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:38.280 too painful to the people in his immediate orbit, or 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.399 we thought could have been too painful to people in 0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:45.359 his immediate orbit to release the show, and so a 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:48.320 decision was made just to shelve that footage. It was 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:52.960 used in Morgan Neville's documentary Roadrunner. We used some of 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:56.960 that footage, but it was I mean again, it was 0:25:57.280 --> 0:25:58.080 probably the best show. 0:25:58.440 --> 0:25:58.960 Like we had. 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.520 We we like had the Alfizi Gallery shut down. We 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:03.720 had it all to ourselves. 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:04.639 You know. 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:08.200 The Fizi Gallery is one of the most famous museums 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.080 in the world. It's like, yeah, you think of like 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:15.879 the very famous Bodacelli's like Primavera, and uh, all of 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:19.240 the those those paintings are there. It's like the one 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:21.600 of the pre eminent museums in Italy. And you can, 0:26:21.720 --> 0:26:24.040 you know, just imagine from there what that means. 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:25.639 They're therefore the world. 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:29.120 Therefore the world, you know, he's talking about the heart 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:34.880 and soul of you know, Renaissance artwork is all contained 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:36.639 right there. And say, and we had that, we had 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:40.640 the place to ourselves, and we went to some crazy places, 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:45.200 standing like standing at the South Pole was pretty amazing. 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:50.879 But standing in the Bodaicelli wing of of Thefizi Gallery alone, 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:53.400 like I took a selfie, is no one else there 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.399 that's about us unless you wax floors for a living. 0:26:56.840 --> 0:27:00.600 That's about as rare as I guess, you know. And 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:02.960 that's what I mean about, like this opportunity to see 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.399 the world in ways that you know, who gets to 0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:10.600 do that, you know, like you'd have to be in 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:15.640 the very very very upper echelons of society, which I'm 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.680 not to be able to do that on your own. 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:23.160 Millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of funding 0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:27.000 to shuttle our asses around the world, you know, and 0:27:27.040 --> 0:27:28.520 see the things that we got to see. 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:31.439 So when when you walked away from that, what did 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:33.040 you start doing? I'm kind of getting to the part 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:35.439 where you and me worked on our new project together. 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:37.560 But did you just take some time. 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.920 Off when I walked away from that and not. 0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:43.240 Walked away whatever it ended, you know, I mean that 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:44.440 was your job, right, that. 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:49.960 Was my job. Yeah. Yeah, if there's some stuff in 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:52.560 the middle there though, that's like that we've never talked about. 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.920 That's like, it's probably shit we should talk about. Like 0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:58.359 I had to make a decision at one point to 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:02.480 leave like meat Eater and everything that we had created 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:06.760 doing this in order to do that, and and it 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:10.159 was like a super super difficult decision because here, like 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:11.359 I didn't create that show. 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:11.960 M M. 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.840 I was a participant in that show. I didn't create it. 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:17.800 Like yeah, like if we were like but that's like 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:20.359 the equivalent of the you and me are like roommates 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:23.040 and all of a sudden someone buys you a house. 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:25.320 I'm gonna be like, yeah, it's a bummer that you're 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:25.879 moving out, MO. 0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:30.240 But I mean, I mean, this is yeah, but this 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.760 is where your humility comes into plate man, Like it was, 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:34.920 it's more than that, Like I remember. 0:28:34.680 --> 0:28:37.240 No, I remember being I remember you like struggling with it. 0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:38.440 But to me, it wasn't a you know. 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:42.200 Yeah. Well in the end, like it's a it's a 0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:44.680 decision I had to make right, Like again, I knew 0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:46.600 what I knew what was on the line. I had 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:49.120 been on the show before, and when the show moved 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.600 from Travel Channel to CNN, Tony was like, I like, 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:57.760 I want you to come like full time, and you 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.240 just like, you just can't. You can't pass up that opportunity. 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:04.320 You just you can't pass up that opportunity to see 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:08.080 the world like that. And uh. And there were a 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:10.600 couple of like career things, I like boxes I wanted 0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:14.160 to check too, you know. Yeah, but it was it 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:16.440 was hard, man, and it was hard to go like 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:19.480 in that direction and go do that and then watch 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:24.320 everything that you've built, you know, subsequently. So when I 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:27.080 got the call to like to come back to work, 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:28.920 I was, I was stoked. It was great. 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:31.080 A the timing well, I don't want to say the 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.880 timing was good because it was such a because the 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:36.680 things we discussed, like the fact that you were I 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:38.800 mean this is years ago now, but that you were 0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:43.040 you became like a free agent after doing after working 0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:43.520 on board. 0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:45.600 A for extausely I had been I had been with 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:50.200 ZPZ on staff for fourteen years, which is still amazing 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:53.400 to me. But then, you know, after Tony died, I 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:57.320 worked I did another three years with w camal Bell 0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:00.760 doing United Shades of America, which was kind of an 0:30:00.800 --> 0:30:04.400 interesting thing too, because like that was very much focused 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:07.960 not only on like American culture and like domestic issues, 0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:13.560 but a pov on American culture and domestic issues that 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:18.240 I could literally never attain myself. So I'm just not 0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:21.440 I'm just I'm not a black dude in America. And 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:23.440 so I was able to go and travel around with 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.960 Cabal and and see things from his perspective, which was 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:33.280 really profound. And then once we wrap that show up 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:45.320 with another two Emmy nominations us on that one, I left. 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.880 I left zero point zero and went out freelance and 0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:52.960 started show running and uh and so yeah, there's a 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:55.080 little time in there, which is good because I needed 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:56.480 to learn how to show run. 0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.960 Before you called no good, I'm glad you learned. 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:01.400 I learned a little bit. 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:06.520 So just for uh, for listeners, a little bit, MOA's 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.240 talking when probably I probably explained this for Hi'm sure 0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:13.360 something's in the air and everybody's got like, are you 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:14.400 having like a throat. 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.040 Film clear nominated for an Emmy. 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:23.840 No film Randall. They don't come together, but doctor Randall, 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:28.200 I have not been nominated. We got nominated for James 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:29.560 Beard Award, which you didn't get. 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:32.880 I was, I was, I was at that. 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:34.120 We were at that dinner. 0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:36.120 No, it wasn't at the dinner. I didn't go to dinner. 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.160 But I remember when we got the nomination a couple 0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:41.680 of fort We were in Mexico when we got that 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:45.120 first one. We were hunting turkeys in Mexico. Oh really, yeah, 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:47.240 I remember down on that that ranch down there we 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:50.960 got we went, we shot a buffalo and uh and 0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:53.000 a bunch of turkeys. 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:56.760 Yeah. Uh. Give a brief bit of history here for 0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:59.360 for for folks, Moo is the story. But Mo's been 0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:01.840 talking about zero point zero Production, So just try to 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:08.440 explain a little bit of a little show business education. Generally, 0:32:08.480 --> 0:32:11.200 like zero point zero Production is a television production company. 0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:14.800 How it generally works in TV production in the old days? 0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:18.520 Is it the production company winds up being like a 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:22.360 contractor building a house. Right, a homeowner comes, they said, 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:24.680 I want a house, I got plans for it. It looks 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:26.720 like this, I'm handing it over to you. You're the contract. 0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:28.960 You come in and build the house. Once you build 0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:31.959 the house, it's all set. You hand the keys over 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:33.880 to the person that bought it and you walk away 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:37.080 and it's their propert. They might do more houses with you, 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:38.920 but that's how it goes. Do you finish the house, 0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:43.440 hand it to them For all you folks. I'm sure 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.880 everyone listening, I'm sure has seen episodes of No Reservations 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.800 and Parts Unknown. So this company, zero point zero Production, 0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:54.240 produce all of those shows. 0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:58.240 And it's important to note develop the original concept too. 0:32:58.360 --> 0:32:59.200 Which was Cook's Tour. 0:32:59.600 --> 0:32:59.719 Right. 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:03.440 So if you go way back and I like remember, 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:09.240 I vividly remember this happening is Anthony Bourdain's book Kitchen Confidential. 0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:12.080 I remember it coming out. I remember being excerpted in 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:15.479 the New Yorker, and like they took, they came in, 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:18.520 optioned it, made a deal, started building this whole thing. 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:21.880 When we started making Meet Eater with zero point zero, 0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:26.000 we built media where we just owned we owned Meat 0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:29.320 Eater and just license it out. So in the old days, 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:33.240 in many many, many of the first years of Meat Eater, 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:37.280 I made Meat Eater as a joint venture, like we 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:39.720 were fifty to fifty business partners and we owned me 0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:41.720 Eater as a joint venture between me and Zero point 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:47.600 zero Production. Later we had the opportunity I was approached 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:51.600 by a company that that invested in digital media properties. 0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:56.520 So one you might know is uh, they were invested 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:59.760 in Barstool Sports and kind of were a majority owner 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:02.000 and bar our Stool Sports. It was with the guy 0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.480 that had been the chair of news Courts, so Fox News, 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.800 and they had a group called TCG, and we took 0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:09.719 an investment from TCG to build me Eater and do 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:14.960 a thing, and then over time didn't have involvement with 0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:17.720 Zero point zero anymore, and overtime MO didn't have involvement 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:20.759 with Zero point zero anymore. This is all a long 0:34:20.840 --> 0:34:23.840 rambling way of leading into this project that we're working 0:34:23.840 --> 0:34:27.759 on now that Mo and I are just putting a 0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:30.600 rap on. Our work on all these episodes is coming 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:32.279 out of all those years of making me Eater. I 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:36.000 started talking to a friend of mine, Mark Pierce, who 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:39.400 owns warm Spring Productions, and some of the guys on 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:41.319 his team, and we started talking about this idea of 0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:47.400 doing a show around outdoor mysteries, wilderness mysteries, and we 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:52.880 had baked it along pretty good, made an arrangement with 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.320 History Channel. We're gonna you know, we're gonna call it 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:59.960 Hunting History. We're gonna do it in partnership with History Channel. 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:04.000 And eventually we needed, like, what's called a showrunner? You 0:35:04.000 --> 0:35:07.160 should explain what a showrunner is. I wasn't even really 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:08.360 clear on what a showrunner was. 0:35:08.480 --> 0:35:09.560 I mean, you can think of it. 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:11.160 I almost asked that a minute ago. 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.640 It's basically like a project manager, you know, so you're 0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:22.120 you just have oversight over the whole project tip to toe, 0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:26.160 which requires, you know, it requires a lot of different 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:27.560 kind of skill sets. 0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:33.480 Does that include like creatively, what's an episode? What's note 0:35:33.719 --> 0:35:34.040 from that? 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.400 Yeah? Okay, very much. Moe was originally hired to be 0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:40.359 a director, and then it moved up to being from 0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:42.920 a director that moved up to being the showrunner the 0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:47.200 kind of like primary driver of all things, and still 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:49.320 directed the show, still directed the show. 0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:52.799 Yeah, it seems like it should be a more prestigious 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:55.719 sounding title a showrunner. To me, it would be like 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.040 a I think of like a bike messenger, and it 0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:02.360 should be called to mind a very different set of responsibilities. 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:07.200 I know, it should be seriously you branded, yeah, showrunner 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:09.360 Like he's like a dude that runs around. Yeah. 0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.120 The title that people would see on screen as executive 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:13.360 producer gotcha. 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:16.160 Yeah, but anyone that knows show business knows that could 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:17.479 mean a variety of things. 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:20.120 That's a wide, wide cash all phrase. 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:22.759 A tip for people watching, for all you people that 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:27.320 love watching credits and movies. When you see EP, yeah, 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:33.319 apply like a healthy dose of skepticism because you a 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:37.200 lot of activities can capture you the EP. A check, right, 0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:40.160 A check can get you EP. Or it's that you 0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:44.160 spent twenty years bleeding for a project, right yeah, put 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:47.759 your life savings, mortgaged your house. In the end you're 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.239 an EP. Or later it's all done and you're like, oh, 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.240 I'd like to be involved in that. I can be helpful. 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:56.160 And then all of a sudden there's a EP too, 0:36:57.120 --> 0:36:59.880 and those two people are like, oh, mate, you have 0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.160 you're what I am? You're not what I am? 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:06.640 And those are getting long because he shows now these 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.959 are like ten EPs, but two of those people worked. Yeah, 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:13.600 everyone else was just attached to those people. Bled why 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:20.000 in in Well, I guess in all all productions. So 0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:23.239 it's not specific a documentary, but like fighting for those 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:26.520 like the producer credit, Like that's what people that's what 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.759 people want. If you want to be like Oscar eligible, 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:32.760 you need that producer credit. 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:33.680 Oh got it? Really? 0:37:34.000 --> 0:37:34.440 Yeah? 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:35.360 God man, I know that. 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:38.360 Right, some epis, you know, some EPs will have it, 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.600 but producers that's where it's at. 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:45.000 Oh so executive is like a downgrade. You just want 0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:45.880 to be regular producers. 0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:47.400 Yeah, you want to be on that. You want to 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:49.880 be the the producer. It's usually a one producer. 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.239 Because I was just saying, it's probably not too late 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:55.440 for me to angle for EP on the new show, 0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:58.040 but it is too late for the producer, and that's the. 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.920 One you want. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, this to lady the way, Randall, 0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:08.960 I do have a checkbook. When we started, when we 0:38:09.000 --> 0:38:11.439 started on Hunting History, when Moe came in, we hadn't 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:13.080 we didn't have our subjects. 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:15.720 We had a few of them. They had done development 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:19.279 work you know, leading up to that, and uh and 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:22.279 it developed some good concepts. Yeah, so like we ran 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:24.759 with a bunch of those. Yeah, we certainly weren't going 0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:25.439 to throw those out. 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:27.960 Let's do it? Should we should? We should we lay 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:30.000 out the mysteries like well, let me first lay out 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:34.560 the kind of overriding premises. So so on hunting history 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:41.000 we explore eight uh outdoor wilderness mysteries. I'll tell you 0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:42.440 some things that I would say are true of all 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:45.959 of them. Okay, they could be that there, they could 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:50.240 be they could be mysteries that are forty or fifty 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:53.440 years old. Some of them. They could be mysteries that 0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.239 are over three hundred years old. Yeah, so that there. 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:59.720 Are many thousands of years old or or millennia. 0:39:00.239 --> 0:39:04.040 Yeah, you're right. They could be vastly different timeframes, but 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:07.719 they share in common that these are mysteries that are 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:12.759 set in wilderness, backwoods environments like some of the wildest, 0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:17.399 most beautiful landscapes in the country. They are things that 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:21.880 people will have I'll be following all these riddles or 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.160 these clues. There are things that most Americans will have 0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:28.160 some little thing in the back of their head that goes, oh, 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:33.080 I've heard of that. Yeah right, there's like a oh yeah, 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:37.040 I heard of that. They're all things that are still 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:38.480 being actively argued about. 0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:38.919 Yep. 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:46.960 Oddly, and this surprised me. They're all things that have obsessives. Yeah, yeah, 0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:52.279 they all have living obsessives who have dedicated their life 0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:55.720 or major portions of their life to push a theory, 0:39:56.920 --> 0:40:00.160 and there are usually other obsessives with a different theory. 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.919 Yeah, And are constantly new theories. 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:07.600 Yeah yeah, constantly new theories, constantly new theories coming up. 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:12.000 And so we found those. And to give you what 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:13.560 we're getting into some of these, but to give you 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:15.960 a sense of the range would be some of the 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:22.399 mysteries are like some of the mysteries are just definitionally 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:27.239 a mystery. Meaning in the nineteen seventies we had this 0:40:27.360 --> 0:40:30.480 kind of blows your mind to think this is true. 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:36.239 In the nineteen seventies, we had a rash of global 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:40.920 and also national skyjackings. It seems so hard to picture 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:44.480 now in a post nine to eleven world, but there 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:51.560 was a legitimate problem with people hijacking airplanes globally and nationally, 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:55.960 hijack an airplane, get ransom money, try to get away 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:57.120 with the ransom money. 0:40:57.040 --> 0:40:59.719 For either economic gain or political. 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:04.960 Yeah. Became some currific ideological yes, it became some political 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:09.280 political hijackings, you know, the famous t w A hijacking. 0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:11.440 And then there also been just like some lone wolf 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:15.680 financial hijackings just for personal financial gain. Only one of 0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:19.719 these skyjackings, as they call him. Only one of these 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:24.000 skyjackings remains unsolved, and it is the story of a 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:28.759 guy that identified himself as Dan Cooper. In the early 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:34.760 days of the investigation, a journalist misheard a communication between 0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:42.839 some investigators misheard dB Cooper ran an article using dB 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:46.800 Cooper as a suspect name. It was misheard dB Cooper 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:49.640 did not use dB Cooper used Dan Cooper. He's on 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:53.480 a plane that takes off out of Portland to Seattle. 0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:56.040 But what do you buy his ticket for? 0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:57.319 It's like twenty bucks. 0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:02.520 It's so funny. Yeah, buys a ticket, gets on it 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:04.799 with walks in. Buys a ticket for twenty bucks, gets 0:42:04.800 --> 0:42:08.080 on the plane. He's dressed in a suit. He's wearing loafers. 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:12.000 He hands a flight attendant a note that he's got 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:13.880 a bomb. He opens up a suitcase. It's got a 0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:17.360 bunch of wires and shit looks like a bomb. Demands 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:22.920 a couple hundred thousand dollars in twenties. The plane lands 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:28.759 at sea tack. He lets all the passengers go, He 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.600 lets he keeps some hostages on the plane. Flight crew 0:42:32.080 --> 0:42:35.640 lets a flight attendant go. She comes back with a 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:38.439 big sack full of all his twenties. I can't remember 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:41.440 we calculated how many pounds of twenties. It was not 0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:42.399 as much as you'd think. 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:45.560 No, I'm trying to remember, like twenty two pounds or something. 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:47.400 Shocking. 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:50.799 Ask for four parachutes. This is like some key stuff here. 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:57.040 Ask for multiple parachutes, creating the idea that he's going 0:42:57.120 --> 0:43:02.080 to jump with the flight crew. Yeah, because if he says, 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:02.640 give me. 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:04.719 One shoot, like sweet. 0:43:05.760 --> 0:43:12.799 Give him yeah, yeah, why are you going to cut 0:43:12.840 --> 0:43:15.440 every rope in there? Then give him the shoot? Ask 0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:20.160 for four shoots. They they take off out of They 0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:22.920 take off out of seattack. He wants to go. 0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:24.919 Mexico City. 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:28.520 Yeah, he wants to go to Mexico City. They argue 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:30.279 with him that you can't. There's not enough fuel on 0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:34.280 the plane. They debate. So this all this is important 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:38.560 detail because he he's taken off out of sea attack 0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:39.960 and he already knows what he's gonna do. He knows 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:41.520 he's gonna jump out of the plane, and he has 0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:44.640 a destination in mind. They're already taken off and they're 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.720 arguing about you can't do that. They suggest they suggest 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:51.400 like landing in the Bay Area or something. They suggest 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:55.239 going to San Francisco. He's like, it's too busy. He's like, 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:59.759 let's go to Reno and refuel. So now time has 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:02.080 gone by, he's in the air. He wants to go 0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:04.720 one place. They changed their mind. They're going in another direction. 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:08.040 Point being there's like people argue this that he had 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:10.320 like he knew what was up and had an accomplished 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:13.480 waiting the dude. This is one thing I'm sure about 0:44:13.719 --> 0:44:19.560 this dude does not know. No, no rational person can 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:22.439 argue that he knew where he was when he jumped 0:44:22.440 --> 0:44:25.479 out of that plane. It was the kind of plane 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:27.520 that had the back door that opens up. Yeah. 0:44:27.840 --> 0:44:29.680 I mean, even if you do where you were, even 0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:31.640 if you had known what route you were on, you 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:32.600 wouldn't know where you were. 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:39.040 Cloudy night, a storm, No, there's a storm, overcast, heavily overcast, 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:42.759 gys raining, and he's jumping out. At where he's jumping out, 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:47.800 it's like negative zero seven degree. We we said negative 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:50.839 seven I think is the number we came negative at 0:44:50.880 --> 0:44:52.520 the elevation he's at and he's got suit on. 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:56.160 Loafers going two hundred miles an hour. Yeah, negative seven. 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:59.920 There's a really funny part of this where so the 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.080 put all on the hole from excited explaining a funny 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:03.799 part of this. When we're filming it, we're in the 0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:08.320 town of We're in this area of the FBI's drop zone, 0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:10.239 and we're we just are going to eat in this 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.640 town at Cougar, Washington, just going does we just like 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.839 made plans to going to Cougar to eat And we're 0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:18.400 sitting there and we're like, we're kind of outside the 0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:20.359 trucks and some guys got some cameras and here comes 0:45:20.400 --> 0:45:22.719 a dude driving buying a bike. Is then listen, here 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.040 comes a guy driving buying a bike and it's just 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.359 killing them. He sees the cameras and it's killing them, 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:29.319 you know, and he's like he drives and you can 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.200 see him change his mind. And he comes back and 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:36.240 he's got some shorts on and he's got a shirt, 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:39.160 a heavy like a big shirt on, but suspenders under 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:44.880 his shirt, like suspenders under his T shirt. And I said, he'said, 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:47.319 what are you guys doing? You know dB Cooper, you know, 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:49.359 he gets all fired up about Dbie Cooper And I said, 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:53.360 what do you have? Why you got your suspenders on it? 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:55.520 Under your shirt, and he tells me that holds up 0:45:55.560 --> 0:46:01.520 my pistols. To give you a sense of how much 0:46:01.719 --> 0:46:05.480 like this story lives, right, we didn't get an interview 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:06.719 with this guy, but to give you a sense how 0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:10.200 much the story lives, this individual races home. This is 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:13.960 just a guy on the street, races home on his 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:19.560 bike and comes back with like evidence okay about who DV. 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:22.000 Cooper is. It introduces us to a thing that totally 0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:24.040 mess with our heads because in all of our research, 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:26.520 I was just talking about what he had on. Right, 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:29.560 he's got on a jack, he's got loafers, okay, And 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:32.000 all our research we never see any mention to this. 0:46:32.160 --> 0:46:36.760 But he's describing he's describing one of the last known 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:41.040 moves of dB Cooper, which was to slip a packet 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:46.080 of twenties into his wetsuit. So we get done talking 0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:50.040 to him, we're like, the wetsuit. W how did we 0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:52.880 miss the wet suit? But then we went and reviewed 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:57.359 there's no that man. As far as I know, that man, 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:01.040 and only that man knows about that the Cooper was 0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:01.960 wearing a wet suit. 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:05.279 But I mean, but that's what's so cool about the 0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:08.280 story and the reason that the story is so enduring 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:12.120 is it invites all of this you know, you're you're 0:47:12.200 --> 0:47:16.320 left with so few clues that paints such a vivid 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:20.120 picture of what this guy did that it's open to 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:23.520 all this interpretation. As we talk about in the show, 0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:28.279 it's like a it's a perfect story, and like what 0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:30.279 a fun thing to be able to just like dive 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.120 into a perfect story and just let your imagination goes. 0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:36.040 He had a wet suit on. He was jumping in 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:37.360 the lake. Manna. 0:47:37.400 --> 0:47:39.279 Look like idiots, We never talked about a wet suit. 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.319 Scratch the wet suit. That's just a dude down the streets. 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.040 That's the dude down the street wearing shorts with pistols 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.879 hanging from his suspenders. So, uh, Cooper goes on the back. 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:55.040 There's always a little details. He lights he uh, here's 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:57.520 a crazy part. Smokes a cigarette. Yeah, smokes a couple 0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.040 of cigarettes. Put him in the ash tree. You know 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:01.640 how even today you'll see planes and still have that 0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:04.439 little ash tray. Put some cigarettes in the ash tray. 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:06.399 He was one of the biggest screw ups the FBI 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:11.160 ever made in not being able to anticipate and not 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:14.920 being able to anticipate that you would pull DNA off 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:17.680 the cigarettes, which would now be a blink of an 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:22.040 eye process, Like the FBI lab would have the genetic 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:26.480 profile of this person within minutes. They check them out, Yah, 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:35.239 burn them. Do you believe this? No, Like you're like 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:38.399 an archaeology. It's very common in archaeology, Like if you're 0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:40.560 out of sight, you dig a little square, you'll dig 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.279 a meter square, and then the rest of it you 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:45.319 don't touch because you're like, I don't know. In one 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:48.200 hundred years, they'll be able to dip a stick in 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:49.920 that dirt and tell you what happened here, So let's 0:48:49.960 --> 0:48:52.120 not mess with the rest because technology improved. But no, 0:48:52.239 --> 0:48:53.839 they're like, yeah, what are you gonna do? These old 0:48:53.920 --> 0:49:02.040 cigarettes gone gone. At some point he takes apart one 0:49:02.040 --> 0:49:05.120 of the four parachutes and gets some cord out of 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:07.920 it shit and fashions himself a little bundle of money 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:12.640 and lowers that back door down and spends some amount 0:49:12.640 --> 0:49:15.760 of time messing around on the back. 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.120 Yeah, we should, we should specify that it's it's at 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:23.319 a time when some planes had the the staircase that 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:25.680 lowers from the tail of the plane, So we're not 0:49:25.719 --> 0:49:28.520 talking about the side door at the back of a plane. 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:31.680 We're talking about a staircase that lowers directly off the 0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:32.759 tail of the fuselage. 0:49:32.920 --> 0:49:40.680 Yepp. He he expects the flight attendant to open the door, 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:43.640 realizes that the flight attendant is not instructed on opening 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:46.080 door and in flight can't open the door, and sends 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:48.279 the flight attendant up front. So now he's in the 0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:49.840 back of the plane. This is this is key to 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:52.479 He's in back of the plane by himself. He gets 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:57.359 the door down and at some point climbs down, puts 0:49:57.440 --> 0:50:01.279 on a parachute, and climbs down the steps. How the 0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:03.960 FBI would later determine what they would call their drop 0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:08.080 zone is based on like trajectory, flight time and all this. 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:12.040 But one of the key pieces is the pilots feel 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:17.319 a pressure change in the cabin, suggesting to them that 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:20.319 that pressure change was that he's putting weight on the 0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:26.239 back step. Yeah, and when he jumped the backstep the 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:30.439 door goes fo Yeah. Just a few folks listening at home. 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:33.640 I just took my hand and inflected it at the wrist. 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.040 I did like a little wrist flick. That was the 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:42.840 door coming up. And so they go like, huh, maybe 0:50:42.880 --> 0:50:45.080 that was him jumping out. Let's take note of where 0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:49.800 we're at. That's the FBI drop zone. I'm not kidding. 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:53.120 That's the FBI drop zone somewhere between the Sea Tac 0:50:53.320 --> 0:50:56.640 and Reno, but like sometime around there. Because eventually they 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:59.480 get like, well, shit, let's go look. Yeah no, no, 0:50:59.520 --> 0:51:02.880 they didn't. They not look till they landed or did 0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:03.479 they go look. 0:51:04.360 --> 0:51:08.960 They did not get a They did not get resources 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:10.200 out in the field to look. 0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:12.839 No, no, when did the flight crew go to look 0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:16.160 to see that he was actually a long time? Yeah? 0:51:16.320 --> 0:51:19.839 Yeah, because well, I mean you can kind of offend that. 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:22.399 Guys know the guy's got a bomb. Man. 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:25.000 Oh yeah, every go up front, go up for No, 0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:28.439 I'm not blaming anybody, but they're saying that became this 0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:34.920 hotly contested FBI drop zone. Earlier were talking about everybody's 0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:36.560 got like a little bit of awareness of the story. 0:51:37.719 --> 0:51:39.920 I know, I knew the story. I didn't know any 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:41.440 of the detail. I knew there was a skyjacker, and 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:44.399 I knew jumped out of the plane, and and and 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:46.839 when we got into it, and Mo and I are 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:49.200 like talking, and other guys we work with are all talking. 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:52.840 I would often say on the calls, I'll tell you 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:55.239 what happened. You know, have not been there, yea, and 0:51:55.320 --> 0:52:03.120 knowing nothing about it. I was like he he burrowed 0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:06.640 into the ground, didn't know what he was doing, had 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:10.440 a bad shoot, whatever. And the reason he's never because 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:13.359 we should jump to this. He's never turned up. 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:19.600 Nothing has ever turned up, well, well except yeah, one thing. 0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:21.760 Some money turned up. We'll get to that in the minux. 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:23.879 We went, we went to the site. Some money turned 0:52:23.920 --> 0:52:24.839 up into Columbia River. 0:52:25.400 --> 0:52:28.920 In the eighties, nothing of his body, parachute or anything 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:29.160 like that. 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:34.200 And people thought that, you know, one investigator said, well, 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:37.600 come deer season, we'll find him, because he thought something, 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:39.399 you know, like some guy's gonna be like, oh my god, 0:52:39.440 --> 0:52:41.200 a parachute hanging in a tree with the dead guy 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:43.600 from it, and it would be over right. That was 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:46.640 the assumption early on. It's like, he's just dead somewhere 0:52:46.640 --> 0:52:50.920 and they'll find the shoot. They never did. And I 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:54.239 would have thought, well, his shoot never opened, you know, 0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:57.560 and and he burrowed into the ground, and and you 0:52:57.600 --> 0:53:02.080 know all that soft rainforest moss, and you're hitting at 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:04.160 one hundred and seventy miles an hour or something like that. 0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:09.879 Terminal boity. Yeah, somewhere and right and unless someone looks 0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:12.839 in the right little divot and that's where the money is, 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:17.080 that's where his body is. And we kind of begin 0:53:17.160 --> 0:53:22.360 our exploration with that idea and then quickly have special 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:26.840 forces guys, military parachuters, a parachute instructor with like fourteen 0:53:26.880 --> 0:53:30.680 thousand jumps in his history who was actually interviewed by 0:53:30.680 --> 0:53:35.040 the FBI after the dB Cooper thing. Them all say no, 0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:39.000 he's probably fine. Yeah, no reason to think he's not fine. 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:42.360 Like in their mind, it's like, no, no landing, the 0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:44.680 trees don't matter, land in the mountains don't matter. 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:47.000 Yeah, it's a parachute. They're like designed to work. 0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:49.080 Yeah, he's like no. I was like, what if you 0:53:49.160 --> 0:53:57.080 hit a treat it doesn't matter. Yeah. We couldn't get 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:00.720 any major parachute dudes to tell us that he was dead, 0:54:01.440 --> 0:54:06.880 as much as I wanted to community, but they're like, 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:09.000 the shoots work, you pull the cord, you're landing. 0:54:10.080 --> 0:54:12.840 And I think the other interesting thing is like we 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:15.120 had like an opportunity to get you in the air 0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:19.240 and get you like, you know, doing a tandem jump, 0:54:19.440 --> 0:54:23.759 and your immediate reaction on the ground went from like 0:54:24.480 --> 0:54:26.759 before we went up on the plane, like he's he's 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:30.360 burrowed into the ground, to like, I know, he's he 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:32.160 could of course he could survive that. 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:34.320 Now you're part of the community. 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:36.440 And I think, and that's what's so fun about the 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.920 show is like you you you get to unfold these 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:45.560 mysteries and kind of pressure test one variation or one 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:49.680 possibility or one theory at a time, and over the 0:54:49.719 --> 0:54:52.680 course of it you come out with a completely different 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.719 understanding or a completely different viewpoint on it. None of 0:54:55.719 --> 0:55:00.000 it based on empirical evidence, all based on experiential evidence. 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:03.640 And I think that's what's what you know, That's the 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:06.040 reason that like, as a concept, I think this show 0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:10.799 is so cool is that you were out there experiencing 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:16.280 things and then making you know, assessments of a mystery 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:17.960 based on those experiences. 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:21.479 And if and if he lived and I think he did, 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:23.680 if he survived the jump, think about how you think 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:26.680 he did. Yeah, well, now I think you did, right, Yeah, 0:55:26.719 --> 0:55:30.359 But then but then just like invite yourself to think 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:33.760 about this for a minute, that you're somewhere south of Seattle, 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:37.279 you're not quite sure where, and you've jumped in the 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:41.439 dark and keep in mind he never got caught. You're 0:55:41.520 --> 0:55:44.840 landing in the dark, and not toward dawn, You're landing 0:55:44.880 --> 0:55:47.399 in the dark in the evening. Yeah, it's a lot 0:55:47.640 --> 0:55:54.400 in your loafers, not rigged up in the rain. Yeah. 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:57.600 What then there's talk of accomplices, and maybe there were, 0:55:57.680 --> 0:56:00.960 but like not to that point. But there's there's no way. 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:02.960 There's no way you could have coordinate it with someone 0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:03.359 on the ground. 0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:05.160 Now, he'd need to get to a payphone at that 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:08.000 time and make a call and say, well, I think 0:56:08.000 --> 0:56:11.520 I'm just somewhere out in the Cascade range, you know. 0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:13.920 And you're walking around and as far as you know, 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.880 there was this kind of laughable delay in looking for 0:56:17.000 --> 0:56:17.640 him on the ground. 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:20.480 It's because it was partly because it was Thanksgiving night. Yeah, 0:56:20.600 --> 0:56:22.520 everyone had to finish there. Yeah, they had to finish 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.200 their dressing and pumpkin pie and ship and they got 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:28.759 the posse rounded up. He didn't know this that, he 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:32.640 doesn't know this. No, so no, like in all this 0:56:32.800 --> 0:56:36.000 time since and they did. They brought out the army. 0:56:36.760 --> 0:56:40.480 I mean the army to do shoulder to shoulder was 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:45.080 like five foot spacing, I think Fingertip Fingertip spacing shoulder 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:48.840 to shoulder, and they they spent months grid working everything. 0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:56.160 No parachute, no sack, nothing, nothing. 0:56:57.160 --> 0:57:00.719 So oh man, they were doing fly over is in 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:03.440 was it the SR seventeen or the. 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:04.560 Seventy one seventy one? 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:06.759 You know blackbird? Yeah, they brought that up. 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:09.719 Yeah, use that to try to find the shoot big 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:15.560 reconnaissance aviation guy here, like, I got it right, my. 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:16.640 Favorite bat too. 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:23.720 They nothing. Ever, we'll get to this money. Then we'll 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:25.360 kind of move one hundred another one of these, just 0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:27.480 to give people example. We'll get to this money. So 0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:29.720 here's the crazy, weird part. And this is what really 0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:34.320 like the money. If the money hadn't happened, the story'd 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:38.040 be different. But the money up ends everything. Yeah, in 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:42.560 the eighties, right near Phil's backyard, Phil Phil Phillison on this. 0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:46.000 That's right Vancouver, Washington, on the shores of western Vancouver, 0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:46.480 I believe. 0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:47.720 Do you know the name of the bar. 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:50.120 I don't know the name of the bar, so, yeah, 0:57:50.160 --> 0:57:53.040 I can't fill you in. Sorry. It's an Algonquin word 0:57:53.120 --> 0:57:57.120 meaning marshy swamp, Tina bar, Tina bar. 0:57:57.320 --> 0:57:57.400 So. 0:57:57.440 --> 0:58:04.120 The original the the Skyjacking was in seventy two seventy three, 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:05.600 seventy two. 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:09.760 I was not yet born. I wasn't even conceived yet, Randall, 0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.120 where was I? Oh the money? So check this out? 0:58:17.040 --> 0:58:19.440 Eighty one? Was it a somewhere eight nineteen eighty one? 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:22.920 Somewhere early eighties? Some kid, Now this is that this 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:26.800 is the surface I'm telling you the surface level true part. 0:58:26.920 --> 0:58:29.040 And you can read in all the conspiracy theories the 0:58:29.120 --> 0:58:35.200 surface level true part. Okay, everyone agrees is this. Some 0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:37.280 kid goes down on the Columbia River and they're going 0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:42.880 to make a fire, and he's scratching out with his foot. Yeah, 0:58:43.000 --> 0:58:47.200 a little fire pit, Okay, on the bank of the river, 0:58:47.400 --> 0:58:50.920 just like you would. And lo and behold, here is 0:58:51.000 --> 0:59:00.760 a bundle bundles, bundles, bundles of rotten twenties. When they 0:59:00.800 --> 0:59:04.320 gave Cooper all of his currency, when they gave his 0:59:04.400 --> 0:59:10.120 ransom money, I knew they knew the serial numbers. Okay, 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:12.360 here's a whole other wrinkle. I'm gonna get into this wrinkles. 0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:15.720 This is interesting wrinkle I knew going as we did 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:19.000 our research. It was like they knew the serial numbers 0:59:19.000 --> 0:59:23.640 of the money. I thought they were sequential, meaning I 0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:27.520 thought they gave him blank to blank numbers, which would 0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:28.480 make it easier. 0:59:28.240 --> 0:59:31.120 To find sell a list of serial number, but. 0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:35.000 It was all random numbers, so you couldn't notify banks. 0:59:35.040 --> 0:59:37.600 If you see any money come in between one one 0:59:37.760 --> 0:59:42.880 zero zero zero zero and one one zero, they keep 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:47.760 your eye out for it. It's like thousands of twenty 0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:51.320 thousand random ass serial numbers, so you could never get 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:53.680 in your head what numbers you're looking for. Because I 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:55.520 used to be like, the money never turned up, so 0:59:55.560 --> 0:59:57.120 the money must be gone. But someone' say, how do 0:59:57.160 --> 1:00:00.439 you know the money's gone? If he took have money 1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:02.720 and spent it wherever the hell. Yeah, took it to 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:04.840 the Caribbean, took it to Mexico, took it anywhere, took 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:07.520 to grease whatever and exchange the money. And then the 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.360 fact that someone down the road is gonna check that 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:13.560 serial number against the list of twenty thousand random ass 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:17.360 serial numbers and find it. But anyhow, the money that 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:19.200 comes out of team to borrow the corners is all 1:00:19.280 --> 1:00:22.000 rotten away. But it's the numbers. 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:24.880 They know for a fact that that is the money. 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:26.680 It's the money from the ransom. 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:29.720 But here's the deal, Like the crazy part of it 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:32.240 is that you'd say to yourself. If you're thinking, man, 1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:34.680 you're now saying to yourself, well, yeah, he lost some 1:00:34.800 --> 1:00:37.840 of the money. He's drowned in a river and it flowed. 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:41.360 It was in a little creek, float out of the mountains, 1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:45.640 float into a tributary, float into the Columbia on a flood. 1:00:45.680 --> 1:00:47.760 You got deposited on the bank. Covered in sentiment. But 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:52.320 here's the problem the money. If you drained the FBI 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:55.680 drop zone, it doesn't flow to that spot. 1:00:56.440 --> 1:01:00.040 It's up river. That spot it's up. 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:04.000 The money was found up drainage from the entire FBI 1:01:04.120 --> 1:01:06.880 drop zone, which brings in the question it didn't get 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:09.640 like he didn't. It's either he didn't land in his 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:16.800 drop zone, the drop zones wrong, or someone and here 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:19.320 he did enter all conspiracy idea. 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:22.760 So the next logical conclusion you say, well, the drop 1:01:22.800 --> 1:01:27.000 zones are on again. He landed in some tributary, whatever 1:01:27.040 --> 1:01:30.120 it washed down, got caught in a sandbar. That's totally 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:34.479 reasonable to assume. Here's why the money being in three 1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:38.880 different packets is important because they were not bundled together, 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:44.480 meaning the statistical probability of the three of them ending 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:47.520 up in one level in the billions. 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:52.800 Unless something was holding them in it. He okay, this 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:56.720 is what's claimed. He there's a couple of little details here, 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:02.120 he uh says to a flight attendant. The flight attendant, 1:02:02.160 --> 1:02:07.120 he asked her, do you want some of this money? Okay? 1:02:08.080 --> 1:02:12.800 She says no. Did some amount of that money, like 1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:15.000 we don't know what happened for a long period of time. 1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:17.120 Did some of that amount of that money wind up 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:19.640 Like he's got like a bag, but he puts not 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:22.680 in his wetsuit. But like some of it goes here, 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:24.880 some of it's in a different envelope, some of it 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:28.320 some you know, like it sat there so long and 1:02:28.400 --> 1:02:32.000 rotted so much, something could have decomposed around it. What 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:35.320 was holding it together. But but people that are way 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:37.960 obsessed about this have given up on the idea that 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:41.680 it washed there. Yeah, they think the money was buried there. 1:02:41.720 --> 1:02:43.360 And what's so funny. We went there with a guy 1:02:43.400 --> 1:02:46.080 who's like he actually had some of the money, like 1:02:46.120 --> 1:02:47.360 some of the money that came out of the bank. 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:47.640 Yeah. 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:51.280 Hm. He wrote his name though, Eric Eric Ericulis. 1:02:51.400 --> 1:02:53.760 Yeah, he's like he's like the foremost you know, kind 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:57.280 of citizen sleuth. What they what they refer to themselves 1:02:57.280 --> 1:03:00.000 as citizens. Salu, he's a serious and best investigator. 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:02.480 We go there, we're standing around the river bank and 1:03:02.520 --> 1:03:04.520 I'm like, so it's right here, and he goes, well, 1:03:04.560 --> 1:03:12.440 it was about nine feet up feet out because of erosion. 1:03:12.760 --> 1:03:14.480 It was like the money was like over your head 1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:18.680 when you're standing there. Now, he feels that that money, 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:22.880 because of all this stuff I won't get into, he 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:27.760 feels that money was buried. He feels it was buried 1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:32.120 by D. B. Cooper. Conspiracy theories are that dB Cooper 1:03:32.200 --> 1:03:37.080 later placed the money to throw off the trail, that 1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:44.080 he uh lift, got a ride from someone like dude, 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:48.640 get me out of here, and that guy freaked and 1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:56.280 buried the money. No, no, but that is the last There's 1:03:56.280 --> 1:03:59.080 a neck tie that he took off and left on 1:03:59.120 --> 1:04:01.560 the plane. There's this cigarettes that are gone. There's the 1:04:01.600 --> 1:04:05.080 money in Tina Bar. And they've investigated, I don't know, 1:04:05.120 --> 1:04:08.720 some ten thousand people. Yeah, they really focus heavy on 1:04:08.840 --> 1:04:13.600 disgruntled special forces guys coming out of Vietnam. 1:04:14.640 --> 1:04:18.640 Yeah, and and people with an engineering background or some 1:04:18.720 --> 1:04:24.200 exposure to Boeing or people who would have proximity to 1:04:24.840 --> 1:04:28.880 understanding how the plane works in a basic way. And 1:04:29.240 --> 1:04:33.120 you know, it's fascinating there there are there are thousands 1:04:33.320 --> 1:04:38.200 of these little micro theories of how little portions of 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:41.920 the mystery. And the fact is like no one actually 1:04:41.960 --> 1:04:43.520 knows anything nothing. 1:04:43.840 --> 1:04:46.680 The flight attendant asked him. According to her, there's no 1:04:46.720 --> 1:04:49.080 witnesses of the conversation. She asked them, do you have 1:04:49.120 --> 1:04:52.800 a grudge against the airline? And he said, I just 1:04:52.840 --> 1:04:55.959 have a grudge, But I mean, those are the things 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:58.720 like and this is an important part of this, of 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:01.040 the the whole story is he's like he's become he 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:02.000 became like a folk here. 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:09.120 You know, he didn't didn't hurt anyone, you know, in 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:12.640 in in in our imaginations, he gets away with two 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:16.760 hundred thousand dollars, you know, and uh and disappears into 1:05:16.800 --> 1:05:19.840 the night. It's awesome. He's a he's a hero. He's 1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:21.440 yeah yeah, uh. 1:05:22.600 --> 1:05:27.400 If you watch the news, there's always claims. There's been many, 1:05:27.440 --> 1:05:32.760 many claims. There's a theme people's parents die. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:36.800 people's parents die, and then they come forward to say it. 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:40.000 And recently some people came out and there there's there's 1:05:40.040 --> 1:05:43.240 these kids whose dad actually did a there's these kids 1:05:43.240 --> 1:05:48.280 whose dad actually did a copycat skyjacking and then later 1:05:48.400 --> 1:05:51.560 died in a shootout with the cops, and a lot 1:05:51.560 --> 1:05:54.000 of suspicion fell that it was it was his own 1:05:54.040 --> 1:05:56.880 copy cat, like that was his second skyjacking. Some people 1:05:56.920 --> 1:05:59.760 say they these kids come out and they produce this 1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:03.320 this parachute all the way in North Carolina or something 1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:04.160 across the country. 1:06:04.200 --> 1:06:04.800 Across country. 1:06:04.800 --> 1:06:06.560 They're like, hey, we found a parachute in our shed. 1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:08.320 Then you got to ask you a question. But there's 1:06:08.360 --> 1:06:11.640 so many claims like this, they mostly get debunked. Yeah, 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:13.840 I asked your question. So you're telling me that he 1:06:14.080 --> 1:06:16.880 that night brought his parachute. He that night bundled that 1:06:16.920 --> 1:06:20.760 parachute up no way, and then brought it home to 1:06:20.880 --> 1:06:22.960 North Carolina and put it in his shed. 1:06:23.360 --> 1:06:26.720 I use this again, no no way. 1:06:27.040 --> 1:06:27.959 I like that one. 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.560 Rubbed that fabric between your fingers and thinking a good 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:32.920 old day. 1:06:32.960 --> 1:06:35.880 It was like so many of my friends sent me 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:37.720 that article when that came out, because I was just 1:06:37.840 --> 1:06:41.240 that was after we after we filmed, they sent me 1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:43.440 that article. And then by that point I was like 1:06:43.520 --> 1:06:47.919 well versed in all the claims, just like there's there's 1:06:47.960 --> 1:06:51.480 a claim more than every year does a claim Yeah, 1:06:52.080 --> 1:06:53.440 my boyfriend was Dbie Cooper. 1:06:53.560 --> 1:06:57.480 Yeah, a lot of deathbed confessionals. You know, you like 1:06:57.520 --> 1:07:04.200 to add grandpa was Cooper. We should make a buffer sticker, man, 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:09.320 it you think about that. With the parachute, we tried 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:11.200 to walk through, Like one of the things we do 1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:13.520 in the show is like we walked through in the 1:07:13.520 --> 1:07:18.720 Pitch Black. We walked through those mountains and it's staggering 1:07:19.560 --> 1:07:23.760 how difficult it is to walk through those mountains. I 1:07:23.760 --> 1:07:26.840 mean we're talking about like the Cascades. The best best 1:07:26.880 --> 1:07:29.720 guess of the drop zone is that it's in the 1:07:29.760 --> 1:07:34.040 Cascades just west, like southwest of Mount Saint Helen's right 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:37.520 prior to Mount Saint Helens erupting, So it's like thick 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:42.080 old growth forest and really steep and uh and just 1:07:42.120 --> 1:07:44.720 trying to walk through there in the dark with came 1:07:44.960 --> 1:07:47.000 it was impossible. You're gonna drag a You're gonna drag 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:47.640 a parachute. 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:51.280 We did a we did a thing like we know 1:07:51.360 --> 1:07:53.000 you don't really know what you have, but we did 1:07:53.040 --> 1:07:56.480 like a no, we did a no flashlight because yeah, 1:07:56.600 --> 1:07:58.640 just limited stuff. Like he's not like he's got big 1:07:58.680 --> 1:08:01.480 he doesn't have a big tool bag. Maybe yeah, flash, 1:08:01.600 --> 1:08:03.680 it's on. No. But one thing I never did in 1:08:03.720 --> 1:08:07.160 my whole life was strike a match to look around. 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:11.920 It doesn't work as good. Ear. We're talking about Indiana Jones. 1:08:12.120 --> 1:08:14.120 He goes into a cave and strikes a matches like 1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:15.200 a spot light. 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:17.320 It's not like all of a sudden you're in the 1:08:17.360 --> 1:08:18.080 Lincoln Tunnel. 1:08:20.240 --> 1:08:22.160 Yeah, you strike that match and you're like, you don't 1:08:22.200 --> 1:08:27.960 see much of anything. Man, it was fun. Okay, I 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:30.800 want to let's talk about Donner Party. Yeah, that's a 1:08:30.840 --> 1:08:32.360 good one. I want we just talked about Rowing Oak 1:08:32.360 --> 1:08:35.040 and Donner Party. There's one hundred, one hundreds eight to 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:38.040 talk about. Where them. I want to talk about Rowing 1:08:38.040 --> 1:08:40.240 Oak or Donner Party. 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:41.200 That'll start with Rono. 1:08:41.439 --> 1:08:45.640 Okay, I'll lay the groundwork. You should quiz Randall on 1:08:45.640 --> 1:08:46.200 on rowing Oak. 1:08:46.680 --> 1:08:48.040 Yeah, what do you know about Rono? Yeah? 1:08:48.080 --> 1:08:52.120 Randall? How many? How many settlers? Oh, doctor Randall? 1:08:53.400 --> 1:09:01.200 Thirty one seventy two fifty four, one hundred and thirty nine. 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:05.400 You just went too high twenty four. 1:09:05.520 --> 1:09:08.600 I won't. No, I'm not going to continue to humiliate you. 1:09:08.600 --> 1:09:11.800 One hundred and seventeen. Gotta do it rough. 1:09:11.880 --> 1:09:14.760 I had it in there somewhere rough one hundred seventeen promise. 1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:19.120 We're gonna go way back in time. We're jumping out 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:22.400 from the from the nineteen seventies to the fifteen nineties. 1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:32.360 All these all your European superpowers, Spain, France, England, Portugal, 1:09:32.840 --> 1:09:37.760 they're all vying for colonies New World colonies. The Spanish 1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:40.200 were earlier to the game, and they are getting loaded 1:09:40.240 --> 1:09:44.000 on gold and everybody's like, but down south, everybody's got 1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:48.320 bad fomo. Everybody's got bad fomo. They want their own 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:49.080 chunk of the pie. 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:51.360 Well, Portuguese are killing it in South America too. 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:53.160 Yeah, so people are tearing it up, and the English 1:09:53.200 --> 1:09:57.120 are feeling like they're missing the whole party, and they 1:09:57.479 --> 1:09:59.400 they don't want to go too far south because the 1:09:59.439 --> 1:10:01.439 Spanish at at this point have a major toll hold 1:10:01.520 --> 1:10:06.240 and like jealously guard their areas. In fact, the Spanish 1:10:06.320 --> 1:10:10.439 are so worried about other countries getting a toe hold 1:10:11.000 --> 1:10:14.280 did They got like warships cruising up and down the 1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:18.599 US coast hunting for anyone who'd have the audacity to 1:10:18.600 --> 1:10:21.000 try to get a toe hold in the New World. 1:10:22.120 --> 1:10:25.439 England had sent some like expeditionary trips poking around and 1:10:25.439 --> 1:10:29.080 prodding around, they map parts of the shoreline and they 1:10:29.080 --> 1:10:31.840 get an idea that they're going to establish their first 1:10:31.840 --> 1:10:35.200 permanent colony in Chesapeake Bay. So they take these one 1:10:35.240 --> 1:10:43.000 hundred and seventeen settlers, kids, wives, young people, right, and 1:10:43.680 --> 1:10:45.439 they haul them over and the intention is to bring 1:10:45.520 --> 1:10:47.920 them up into Chesapeake Bay. There's like some weird stuff 1:10:47.920 --> 1:10:50.760 that we get into in the episode. And and they 1:10:50.800 --> 1:10:52.960 don't bring them where they're supposed to bring them. They're 1:10:53.000 --> 1:10:55.320 just like kind of like just them. It sounds like 1:10:55.320 --> 1:10:58.439 a little like unceremonious because it was. I mean, they 1:10:58.720 --> 1:11:00.599 dump them out on an eye island in the outer 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:03.360 North Carolina. This will have to do see you later, 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:07.600 Like it won't work forever, but it might work for 1:11:07.640 --> 1:11:08.080 a minute. 1:11:08.200 --> 1:11:09.160 We'll see you next year. 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:10.719 But it wasn't. 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:13.640 But it's also important to note who these people are 1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:16.920 because like they're not this is not a military expedition. 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:20.080 These are like these are like farmers and craftsmen. They're 1:11:20.120 --> 1:11:24.439 not people who are who are equipped or used to 1:11:26.560 --> 1:11:28.040 going out and and. 1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:33.000 No experience building an. 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:34.240 Outpost from a military standpoint. 1:11:34.280 --> 1:11:36.000 Yeah, these are people who buy and large have probably 1:11:36.040 --> 1:11:39.200 spent their life and within like some small radius of 1:11:39.200 --> 1:11:41.680 a handful of miles. Probably you can't generalize, but like 1:11:41.720 --> 1:11:45.760 mostly these are like yeomen people. They drop them on 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:49.679 this island. And then their leader as this dude, John White, Well, 1:11:49.760 --> 1:11:52.840 they realize how precarious their situation is. And he can't 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:55.280 even hang for long. And he's like, hey, I'm going 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:58.000 to run back to England and get some supplies and 1:11:58.040 --> 1:12:02.400 I'm gonna run back hang to He goes back to 1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:07.639 England and like a war breaks out and the queen says, 1:12:07.760 --> 1:12:10.439 no one's doing ship with any ships. All ships are 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:14.720 fighting the war and all this other stuff happens, and 1:12:14.800 --> 1:12:18.679 it's three years and keep mind this is John White, dude. 1:12:18.680 --> 1:12:20.639 Here's an important detail. This John White dude. His wife 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:23.679 and daughter are there. No, no, no, his daughter and got 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:28.559 his daughter's pregnant is there? Comes back three years later, 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:33.519 is they able to do a quick check on Roanoke? 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:35.880 And they're not there? They're gone. But then there's a 1:12:35.960 --> 1:12:40.160 hurricane coming and he can't he can't even really look around. 1:12:41.439 --> 1:12:44.439 But as the story goes, carved down a tree. They 1:12:44.479 --> 1:12:45.880 made a plan. Hey, if you got to go somewhere, 1:12:45.880 --> 1:12:48.320 carve on a tree crow it where you're going. And 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:50.920 they and they carve the word crow a tone, which 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:54.720 was a tribe that lived on modern day Hatteras Island. 1:12:55.840 --> 1:12:58.200 A hurricane comes, he leaves, and then no one comes 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:02.280 back for a decade or something like that. A decade. 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:06.000 By the time someone comes in seriously looks for these colonists, 1:13:06.000 --> 1:13:07.879 it is just like they are. 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:13.280 Absolutely gone but gone gone, Like there's just rumors. It's 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:16.800 not like there's a bunch of bones. No, yeah, there's nothing. 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:21.599 Gone gone, just rumors. And it's so long has gone 1:13:21.680 --> 1:13:23.920 by that now there's like, oh, you know, it's like 1:13:23.960 --> 1:13:25.720 it's this common thing that pops up in history. I'm 1:13:25.720 --> 1:13:28.559 sure you even countered at rantal Oh. I did see 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:33.520 a blue eyed Indian right suggesting that they like integrated 1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:41.439 but just gone but there. But people are actively looking 1:13:41.439 --> 1:13:43.160 for their stuff. And what's funny about it is like, 1:13:43.240 --> 1:13:45.880 of course, their stuff's get scattered around, because even if 1:13:45.920 --> 1:13:47.880 they had all died right there of some disease, if 1:13:47.920 --> 1:13:51.200 they'd all died of the flu, their shit's still going 1:13:51.280 --> 1:13:53.839 to get scattered around because this is like a vibrant 1:13:54.520 --> 1:13:58.360 this area is full of all these different Native American groups. 1:13:58.400 --> 1:14:01.040 So they're going to take the stuff and scatter anyway. 1:14:01.040 --> 1:14:03.240 And they show up, The English show up with stuff 1:14:03.280 --> 1:14:08.120 that is like highly highly, highly valuable because there's no 1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:12.680 way for Native Americans who are here to get you 1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:18.840 know that iron. You know these things that they had guns, 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:21.519 so you think like it's not just like a bunch 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:25.360 of random crap lying around. These are like highly valuable. 1:14:24.960 --> 1:14:27.519 Items, stuff that people want. So the search has been 1:14:27.840 --> 1:14:32.280 by and large, the search is archaeologists looking for their 1:14:32.280 --> 1:14:35.840 little trinkets and shit, right, but finding a trinket and 1:14:35.840 --> 1:14:37.639 we went to it. We went to an active dig 1:14:37.680 --> 1:14:42.120 site where they're finding like really old English stuff. But 1:14:42.160 --> 1:14:46.280 it's like they get excited about it, but it doesn't 1:14:46.280 --> 1:14:47.800 mean that in my mind, doesn't mean it much because 1:14:47.840 --> 1:14:50.800 their shit's gona wind up there anyways, because people are 1:14:50.800 --> 1:14:54.920 going to take this stuff and trade it. We talked 1:14:54.920 --> 1:14:57.519 to one researcher on it and he's like this, We're like, 1:14:57.520 --> 1:15:00.920 what would satisfy what would sad by you about what 1:15:01.040 --> 1:15:06.720 happened to someone? And he said it's cool because it's 1:15:06.720 --> 1:15:11.240 like identifiable. He's like a Christian burial, a Christian burial 1:15:11.280 --> 1:15:16.920 not on Roanoke m someone because all the tribes had 1:15:17.000 --> 1:15:21.880 burial rituals where the bodies would be buried in a 1:15:21.920 --> 1:15:25.479 curled up and fetal positions, you know, very different ways. 1:15:25.479 --> 1:15:30.240 He goes to find a because he's like, they might 1:15:30.280 --> 1:15:35.599 have you know, they might have been integrated into a tribe. 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:38.880 The last thing to go would be religious practice. Yeah, 1:15:39.600 --> 1:15:41.840 you know in his mind, the last thing to go 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:45.719 would be burial rights and a mother bearing her child, 1:15:45.760 --> 1:15:50.280 a child bearing its mother or someone would would would 1:15:50.320 --> 1:15:56.000 have laid them out on their back, flat prone head 1:15:56.040 --> 1:15:56.559 to the east. 1:15:56.960 --> 1:16:01.400 Yeah, a Christian style burial done by Christians is what 1:16:01.439 --> 1:16:02.080 they're looking for. 1:16:02.160 --> 1:16:05.760 And he's like, if someone can present that, they can 1:16:05.800 --> 1:16:09.360 say here's where here's where they ended up. 1:16:10.040 --> 1:16:12.720 Uh. 1:16:12.720 --> 1:16:15.920 A detail about that we get into is to kind 1:16:15.920 --> 1:16:18.000 of show you what's gonna happen to these people when 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:21.160 they land. It's within days. One of them goes out 1:16:21.200 --> 1:16:23.800 to get oysters. They got they got like nothing. They 1:16:23.800 --> 1:16:25.439 got their heart up from the minute they're there. They 1:16:25.520 --> 1:16:29.360 got very little food resources. Crabs, right, he goes crab, 1:16:29.520 --> 1:16:32.479 he goes blue crabbing. It just gets filled full of arrows. 1:16:33.160 --> 1:16:33.920 His head smashed. 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:37.680 Now because the dudes that were there before him, the 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:40.880 English explorers that were there before him, do all this 1:16:41.160 --> 1:16:45.880 ham handed antagonistic ship to the tribes and piss off 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:48.000 a bunch of the tribes, and then you later bring 1:16:48.000 --> 1:16:49.720 a bunch of women and children and turn them out 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:50.080 on an eye. 1:16:50.880 --> 1:16:51.320 Let him go. 1:16:52.080 --> 1:16:57.439 You see anybody, uh, I don't know, don't mention me. 1:16:58.520 --> 1:17:02.200 And there aren't any like oral true from those communities 1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:03.599 around there. 1:17:03.640 --> 1:17:09.120 About the strangers, I'm kind of shocked by how it's 1:17:09.200 --> 1:17:12.559 kind of shocking how how little there is, how little 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:14.200 there is there. 1:17:14.080 --> 1:17:18.519 Again, there are those rumors of like you know, blue eyed. 1:17:18.640 --> 1:17:23.759 Right, square houses too, tribes like like traders would encounter 1:17:23.840 --> 1:17:26.439 people and they'd be like but in wild places, you know, 1:17:26.439 --> 1:17:31.080 they'd be like hundreds of miles inland, there's there's people 1:17:31.120 --> 1:17:33.759 in square houses living with such and such a true 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:35.280 and to have a square house. But it's just just 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:41.280 like it's ephemeral. It's like rumors and glimpses as we 1:17:41.400 --> 1:17:44.000 dug into it. Like I'll tell you one of things 1:17:44.000 --> 1:17:47.559 for certain, and I can't say much of certain. One 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:50.000 hundred and seventeen of those guys didn't go somewhere and 1:17:50.040 --> 1:17:52.879 like set up shop and build houses. 1:17:54.360 --> 1:17:55.759 That was too much of an imprint. 1:17:56.040 --> 1:18:00.479 It was whatever happened was like quick. It was ugly, 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:01.880 and I think it was scattered. 1:18:02.040 --> 1:18:04.000 They panicked and scattered to the wind. 1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:06.880 And I'm sure some of them because they did write 1:18:06.920 --> 1:18:08.519 on a tree. They wrote on a tree and on 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:14.000 a fence post, crow atin and then kro on one signe. 1:18:14.200 --> 1:18:16.000 They finished it on one sign. One sign did and 1:18:16.000 --> 1:18:17.760 now was the agreement. If you go somewhere write it down. 1:18:19.200 --> 1:18:21.680 But then like did they make it? How many of 1:18:21.720 --> 1:18:26.120 them made it? How many went to crow at five? Right? Yeah, 1:18:26.240 --> 1:18:31.920 you don't know. And then there's been fraudulent evidence, like, uh, 1:18:32.240 --> 1:18:34.280 there's this thing that came out called the Dare Stone. 1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:38.120 This woman Elizabeth Dare wrote this like fairly plausible on 1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:43.519 a rock. Don't laugh, No, I writes a rock like 1:18:43.560 --> 1:18:46.120 some shit, right, And a guy finds the rock. But 1:18:46.200 --> 1:18:48.280 the timing of him finding the rock was that a 1:18:48.280 --> 1:18:52.000 timing of like heightened the public curiosity about this is 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:54.600 when the legend started to emerge. And then you have 1:18:55.479 --> 1:18:59.960 a dozen copycat rocks. So all the copycat rocks are obviously, 1:19:00.600 --> 1:19:04.160 and then the one rock is suspicious, and now people 1:19:04.200 --> 1:19:06.240 don't accept that rock to be true. But that rock 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:09.440 basically said like we've been whittled away and killed and kidnapped. 1:19:11.400 --> 1:19:15.360 Yeah, it's like it was written to her father and 1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:24.400 to me though the love I like, I like the 1:19:24.479 --> 1:19:28.439 you know, so wait, like she was running around running 1:19:28.479 --> 1:19:32.120 from these hostile Native American tribes. 1:19:32.280 --> 1:19:34.639 No, she was in their captivity at the time and. 1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:41.439 Carrying a scratching rocks the pound rock around slowly story 1:19:41.479 --> 1:19:41.960 into it. 1:19:42.600 --> 1:19:44.720 Yeah, you know, it seems implausible. 1:19:44.720 --> 1:19:46.360 We need to go quickly get the rock. 1:19:47.840 --> 1:19:51.200 It seems implausible. We talked to these one authors. They 1:19:51.320 --> 1:19:53.600 they kind of laugh about that. It's called the Dairstone. 1:19:53.800 --> 1:19:56.000 They laugh about the Dairstone. You gotta have a pretty 1:19:56.000 --> 1:19:58.920 sophisticated understanding of the language at the time. But one 1:19:58.920 --> 1:20:02.640 of the things they laughed about the Airstone is it 1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:07.439 like a decent analogy would be, let's say I were 1:20:07.520 --> 1:20:10.760 to talk to you in a Southern accent, right right, 1:20:11.160 --> 1:20:13.920 and a Southerner doesn't think I have a Southern accent. 1:20:14.960 --> 1:20:19.719 They're writing on the Dairstone is so like stereotypically. 1:20:19.200 --> 1:20:21.960 Ye old English, Yeah, yeah. 1:20:21.400 --> 1:20:24.920 And yeez, you know, like all over the place. They're like, 1:20:24.960 --> 1:20:28.400 it's just it's like someone who's like read some Shakespeare 1:20:28.520 --> 1:20:32.200 or something trying to write a note in Shakespeare language. 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:34.360 You know or whatever. And that's one of the better 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:37.600 indictments of the other indictment to be this play comes. 1:20:37.320 --> 1:20:39.360 Out right right at the same time. 1:20:39.439 --> 1:20:42.920 Yeah, this very popular performance comes out. It's still running 1:20:42.920 --> 1:20:46.439 today and and and the fervor of the popularity of 1:20:46.479 --> 1:20:48.440 this they're low and behold as the daarstone. 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:53.600 Yeah, but again, I mean like, these are not selected 1:20:53.640 --> 1:20:58.160 because they're like finite mysteries. They're they're selected because they're 1:20:58.479 --> 1:21:02.320 they're there's they're mystery with all kinds of possibilities, and 1:21:02.320 --> 1:21:03.840 that's what makes it fun, you know. 1:21:04.960 --> 1:21:07.519 Yeah, I don't think that one will be solved, and 1:21:07.680 --> 1:21:09.760 just a spoiler alert, that's what I say. In the end, 1:21:09.760 --> 1:21:13.519 I'm like, I don't think there's like a thing when 1:21:13.520 --> 1:21:15.040 you look at it, like there's a lot of people 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:16.640 looking and a lot of people ask the question, but 1:21:16.680 --> 1:21:22.080 there's not it's too there's not a clean answer. I 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:24.160 don't think there is a clean answer, right, but. 1:21:25.160 --> 1:21:27.439 In the questions I'm asked for a long time. But 1:21:27.520 --> 1:21:31.080 I think what was like, what was really cool about 1:21:31.080 --> 1:21:34.479 this concept and really unique to this concept is no 1:21:34.479 --> 1:21:37.880 one's really asked those questions from an outdoor standpoint. So 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:42.600 these are all mysteries that have a element of the 1:21:42.640 --> 1:21:48.320 outdoors right in the in wilderness, and no one's really 1:21:48.360 --> 1:21:51.360 approached them from from that point of view. And it's 1:21:51.360 --> 1:21:52.760 a lot of what we spend our time in the 1:21:52.760 --> 1:21:58.320 show doing is like living these things and and going 1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:00.760 through to the best of our ability, the things that 1:22:00.800 --> 1:22:04.439 those people went through, or it's suspected that they possibly 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:04.880 went through. 1:22:05.040 --> 1:22:08.360 Yeah, going but going to the real places kind of 1:22:08.360 --> 1:22:10.639 blows your mind because there's this one theory that emerged. 1:22:10.680 --> 1:22:13.960 They said, even though they had written that stuff on 1:22:14.040 --> 1:22:16.760 the thing, there was also an expression of intention that 1:22:16.800 --> 1:22:21.720 they moved fifty miles to the main which you can 1:22:21.760 --> 1:22:25.000 take it different ways. One interpretation is they went fifty 1:22:25.040 --> 1:22:28.000 miles inland, which lands you in this place we went to, 1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:33.439 which is called the Great Dismal Swamp. And you go 1:22:33.479 --> 1:22:35.479 into that stuff, you're like, oh, yeah, you guys under 1:22:36.200 --> 1:22:39.680 like kids and stuff, and you're all wearing like petticoats 1:22:39.720 --> 1:22:41.360 or ever the hell they ran around it, and like 1:22:41.400 --> 1:22:44.200 you're navigating that, you know, you're like wading to the 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:45.400 Great Dismal Swamp. 1:22:45.680 --> 1:22:47.720 And what's kind of amazing though, is when when we 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:51.320 went you go there now and there's a bunch of 1:22:51.360 --> 1:22:54.040 dry land. There a bunch of agricultural land, but all 1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:59.639 of that land was was drained. That was all just swamp. 1:23:00.200 --> 1:23:04.200 When you think of the prototypical swamp like Kermit the 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:07.719 Frog at the beginning of the Muppet movie, level swamp, 1:23:07.840 --> 1:23:10.920 like that's what it was. Lily pads and cypress trees 1:23:11.520 --> 1:23:12.519 that whole area. 1:23:12.720 --> 1:23:15.679 Yeah, we I mean, you know, it's an hour long show. 1:23:15.760 --> 1:23:17.719 You can't explore any avenue of this and this would 1:23:17.720 --> 1:23:19.880 have been like way down the list for how sort 1:23:19.920 --> 1:23:24.759 of outside of the story it was. But that area 1:23:25.439 --> 1:23:30.840 some of the most harshest slave conditions, Yes, in the 1:23:30.880 --> 1:23:33.800 history of slavery in the South, some of the most harshest, 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:38.760 like high death rate slave conditions was making that dry land. Yeah, 1:23:38.840 --> 1:23:41.519 they were put to work draining that land. Yeah, and 1:23:41.560 --> 1:23:44.240 these mallarial you know, and mallarial conditions. 1:23:44.360 --> 1:23:47.400 Those canals are also just criss crossing the land. You 1:23:47.439 --> 1:23:49.960 see those canals that they dug, and the imagine the 1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:57.320 conditions under which they were. 1:23:54.360 --> 1:23:57.920 Looking at just many many, many many square miles upon 1:23:57.960 --> 1:24:01.000 square miles upon square miles. It was hand dug trenches 1:24:01.040 --> 1:24:04.200 to drain that ground. It was just like a disposal 1:24:04.280 --> 1:24:07.479 place for humans that you just pour into like you 1:24:07.680 --> 1:24:10.040 like you're pouring them into a war, pouring slaves into 1:24:10.080 --> 1:24:14.120 that job, which, like I said, wasn't a lot of 1:24:14.200 --> 1:24:19.879 room too. Maybe a future maybe a future episode. Uh. 1:24:20.520 --> 1:24:22.320 Another one of going to the spot, we'll talk about 1:24:22.360 --> 1:24:28.160 this one, we'll wrap it up, is going to Donner 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:31.639 Pass where the Donner Party, where that all went down. 1:24:31.840 --> 1:24:35.040 And one of the funniest things just happened in a 1:24:35.080 --> 1:24:36.600 parking lot. It's not in our show because it just 1:24:36.640 --> 1:24:41.080 happened in a parking lot. Someone we ran into some guys. 1:24:41.680 --> 1:24:44.160 They were filming. They were doing like some ski stuff 1:24:44.200 --> 1:24:46.120 or something. I think what they're doing. We got talking 1:24:46.120 --> 1:24:47.960 to them. They were talking about So this is like 1:24:48.000 --> 1:24:52.040 a third third hand story because we're out filming a 1:24:52.120 --> 1:24:54.240 dinner Pass and they're filming like some skis nothing to 1:24:54.240 --> 1:24:56.280 do with Donner Party. We're feeling about the dinner party 1:24:56.280 --> 1:24:58.040 and they're filming some ski stuff and they share it 1:24:58.080 --> 1:25:01.320 with us. These people that they hadn't counter who were 1:25:01.360 --> 1:25:04.320 in Donner Pass because they were doing a thing about 1:25:04.400 --> 1:25:13.759 places with Christmas names, right, you know, Donnor and Dancer. 1:25:16.040 --> 1:25:19.400 That's the funniest thing the world. Amazing. Uh, that was 1:25:19.439 --> 1:25:23.519 pretty amazing background on Donner Party. Donner Party was well, 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:25.599 first off, I'm gonna talk about what before I get 1:25:25.600 --> 1:25:27.439 into what it was, I'm gonna talk about However, what 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:30.360 everybody knows, including me, what I know about the Donner 1:25:30.400 --> 1:25:33.240 Party is it was an American horror story where people 1:25:33.439 --> 1:25:39.599 ate each other full stop. Right, They're like, yeah, they 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:44.040 got stuck in the mountains and ate each other. Mm hmm, yeah, right, 1:25:44.120 --> 1:25:46.280 that's the story there there in the story. It's a 1:25:46.360 --> 1:25:49.160 very short episode. That's the story of the Donner Party. 1:25:49.520 --> 1:25:51.400 That's what That's what I went into it knowing about. 1:25:51.479 --> 1:25:53.400 You know, I was actually like a little skeptical because 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:54.680 I was like, what is it? You know, what is 1:25:54.680 --> 1:25:55.880 it really to do? You know? 1:25:56.520 --> 1:25:59.800 So no, I think we were all like that was 1:25:59.800 --> 1:26:04.439 a show that we pitched many times, like a concept 1:26:04.479 --> 1:26:06.559 that we pitched many times. And the question we all 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:09.400 had was like, well, like what's the story? Like what's 1:26:09.439 --> 1:26:13.080 the mystery? What's the story? You know, they got snowed in, 1:26:13.120 --> 1:26:15.760 they ate each other. I don't you know, what are 1:26:15.800 --> 1:26:16.280 we gonna do? 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:17.840 Seems pretty straightforward? 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:22.920 It ain't. It ain't. There's a lot like who's to 1:26:23.439 --> 1:26:30.080 here's the questions who's to blame and what could they 1:26:30.120 --> 1:26:34.040 really have done different? Right? And why did what happened happen? 1:26:34.760 --> 1:26:36.800 And now I'm gonna say a little bit of the 1:26:36.800 --> 1:26:42.720 scene is like eighteen forty six, so pre Gold Rush, 1:26:42.800 --> 1:26:45.439 Like everybody's heard of the forty nine ers, ye, right, member, 1:26:45.439 --> 1:26:47.400 we had Elliott west On, he goes. Everybody's to talk 1:26:47.439 --> 1:26:50.479 about the forty nine ers, But the lucky ones were 1:26:50.520 --> 1:26:55.559 the forty eight ers. The forty eight ers got all 1:26:55.600 --> 1:26:58.880 the gold. The forty nine they were late. We're a 1:26:59.000 --> 1:26:59.639 little late. 1:27:00.040 --> 1:27:02.120 So these folks were hopeful forty eight ers. 1:27:02.200 --> 1:27:05.120 Yeah, so these guys, uh, the dinner party, they're coming 1:27:05.160 --> 1:27:08.799 over in eighteen forty six. And the way these emigrant 1:27:08.880 --> 1:27:12.720 trains worked, as I learned through this project, is like 1:27:13.400 --> 1:27:19.320 they're they're like there's a fluidity to how these groups 1:27:19.320 --> 1:27:22.240 come together. You know, there's a kind of rough timeline. 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:24.080 Like if you're going to cross the Great Plains, across 1:27:24.120 --> 1:27:27.320 the Rockies and across the Sierra Nevada, it's like you 1:27:27.360 --> 1:27:29.320 gotta get going as early in the spring as you 1:27:29.360 --> 1:27:31.439 can to have the maxim amount of time so you 1:27:31.479 --> 1:27:36.200 can cross the continent and get there before snow. But 1:27:36.320 --> 1:27:38.920 you can't leave until the ground dries out. So it's 1:27:38.960 --> 1:27:40.759 hard to get going in March because you're gonna encounter 1:27:41.200 --> 1:27:44.719 flood swollen rivers. Right, there's mud everywhere, so you gotta 1:27:44.720 --> 1:27:47.360 be like, shit's got to dry out, and there's a race. 1:27:47.439 --> 1:27:51.280 It's like stuff dries out, water levels come down from 1:27:51.520 --> 1:27:53.599 snow melt, and all of a sudden, it's a good 1:27:53.600 --> 1:27:56.559 time to go, and then you haul ass. And then 1:27:56.680 --> 1:27:58.920 on the other end, you're bracketed in by the coming 1:27:58.960 --> 1:28:01.040 of bad weather. So there's like you pick your window 1:28:01.520 --> 1:28:03.880 and and groups come together and they meet in these 1:28:03.920 --> 1:28:09.200 certain spots and uh, what was the big town everybody 1:28:09.360 --> 1:28:15.240 took off? These guys all took out of us, not Springfield, Springfield, Missouri. Yeah, 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:19.479 what's that independence? Yes, I think that's it where they 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:22.240 took off from. Anyways, you come together and you form 1:28:24.080 --> 1:28:28.719 your your parties come together in family groups. Family groups 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:32.400 form up, right, so you when you cross in a 1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:35.960 wagon train, you might be with your extended family. It's 1:28:36.000 --> 1:28:39.479 it's you, you know, it's your brother, it's your brother's 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:42.120 wife and kids, it's your mom and dad, it's your 1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:45.400 uncle and his family. But then you you join up 1:28:45.439 --> 1:28:49.360 with all these other family units. So you're in a party, 1:28:49.479 --> 1:28:51.360 but you're loosely bound. 1:28:51.160 --> 1:28:54.639 Family units and bachelors and you know, all all kinds 1:28:54.640 --> 1:28:55.280 of different. 1:28:55.040 --> 1:28:57.759 Things and guides and hopefully a guide it's been there before, 1:28:58.160 --> 1:29:03.760 and there's like, uh, you're literally taking votes to to 1:29:03.760 --> 1:29:06.320 to put forward like a leader. So when we say 1:29:06.360 --> 1:29:08.719 the Donner Party, you know, winds up being it winds 1:29:08.760 --> 1:29:14.759 up being ninety some individuals of like two primary clans, 1:29:15.240 --> 1:29:17.280 but then a bunch of other people kind of surrounding 1:29:17.280 --> 1:29:21.560 these clans. And they get all the way out to uh, 1:29:21.640 --> 1:29:24.800 they get all the way out to Fort Bridger, and 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:29.960 they are fed some bad information about a thing called 1:29:30.000 --> 1:29:34.040 Hastings cut off. It's super funny about Hastings cut off, 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:39.479 as it was billed to them as shorter and easier. Okay, 1:29:39.520 --> 1:29:43.040 this is this is the great part of this. It's 1:29:43.160 --> 1:29:46.479 way harder and now that you can like measure stuff accurately, 1:29:46.560 --> 1:29:50.280 it's not stronger Hastings cut off, which is shorter and easier. 1:29:50.280 --> 1:29:51.679 It's longer and harder. 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:54.280 Pretty rare in the world of cutoffs. 1:29:55.320 --> 1:29:59.439 It's like a shitty long cut. Yeah, and they have 1:29:59.520 --> 1:30:03.400 a lot of an internal division. Donner's wife, for instance, 1:30:03.479 --> 1:30:04.880 is like I don't think we should do it. But 1:30:05.120 --> 1:30:07.400 this is crazy because Jim Bridger gets rolled up in 1:30:07.439 --> 1:30:12.840 this whole thing. Jim Bridger. He all these wagon trains 1:30:12.880 --> 1:30:15.920 are taking a route that's causing them to bypass Fort Bridger. 1:30:17.640 --> 1:30:21.040 Bridger who's already a compromised individual in some ways because 1:30:21.439 --> 1:30:24.360 famously it was Jim Bridger who abandoned Hugh Glass and 1:30:24.439 --> 1:30:27.639 the whole Revenant incident. Right, so Bridger is or isn't, 1:30:27.640 --> 1:30:30.640 like the world's greatest guy. Bridger is like, shit, now 1:30:30.880 --> 1:30:33.160 no one goes by my fort anymore. And he's like, 1:30:33.360 --> 1:30:36.840 Hastings cut Off sounds great. It goes right past my fort. 1:30:38.000 --> 1:30:41.599 You guys should definitely take Hastings cut Off and stop 1:30:41.680 --> 1:30:46.000 by well trade, I'll sell you some shit. And they 1:30:46.040 --> 1:30:49.400 do this and uh and when they leave on Hastings 1:30:49.439 --> 1:30:52.160 cut Off, here's the crazy part. So like other wagon 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:54.960 trains at the time they go south on Hastings cut Off, 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:58.240 which is going to go over the wall Satch Range 1:30:58.760 --> 1:31:01.000 and then through Dinner Pass. Well it joins back up 1:31:01.040 --> 1:31:04.880 before Donner Pass. Anyways, when they there's other wagon chains 1:31:04.880 --> 1:31:09.160 that they're with, the wagon chains they're with that don't 1:31:09.200 --> 1:31:11.479 take Hastings cut off, make it to California just fine 1:31:13.080 --> 1:31:17.520 going over Donner Pass. So they do this south loop 1:31:18.080 --> 1:31:20.559 and it sets them back so far and encounter so 1:31:20.560 --> 1:31:24.879 many weird problems that they wind up behind other parties 1:31:24.920 --> 1:31:27.680 when they go up Donner Pass. So they're not pioneering 1:31:27.720 --> 1:31:31.320 Donner Pass. Donner Pass has successfully been used. 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:33.599 Been used in years prior. 1:31:33.720 --> 1:31:37.720 Yeah. Yeah, and they start up in the snow and 1:31:37.760 --> 1:31:40.680 they get uh the. 1:31:39.800 --> 1:31:43.000 They well, it's it's like important to note to you. 1:31:43.160 --> 1:31:47.200 It's not that they actually don't arrive at the bottom 1:31:47.200 --> 1:31:51.320 of Dinner Donner Pass particularly late, despite all of their problems. 1:31:51.400 --> 1:31:53.080 It's it's the end of October. 1:31:53.520 --> 1:31:56.200 Yeah, it's an early storm. 1:31:56.439 --> 1:32:00.040 Right, parties had crossed as late as December. 1:32:00.080 --> 1:32:03.960 And yeah, you're in years past. I forgot that detail. Yeah, 1:32:03.960 --> 1:32:06.800 that's anar thing. Is like, that's a great point because 1:32:06.800 --> 1:32:09.080 you also start there's this kind of narrative that they 1:32:09.080 --> 1:32:12.040 were like I was just laying out like stupid to 1:32:12.080 --> 1:32:14.679 go up there. Yeah, they were late, they were late, 1:32:14.720 --> 1:32:16.800 but it had been done. They were late, but it 1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:19.599 had been done. But then they got up in the 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:24.439 mountains in a situation where it was just insane snow. 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:27.599 It was an abnormal snow year. Yeah, and they lingered, 1:32:27.640 --> 1:32:32.719 they got up there. It was an early snowstorm. Perhaps 1:32:32.760 --> 1:32:35.600 they could have backed out, but they felt that they 1:32:35.600 --> 1:32:38.160 would get a thaw. Right, what are the odds that's 1:32:38.200 --> 1:32:40.160 going to keep happening? Right all the time, like living 1:32:40.160 --> 1:32:42.680 in the Northern Rockies, you know, also in October, like 1:32:42.720 --> 1:32:45.080 what big old storm, and then like a month later, 1:32:45.120 --> 1:32:47.760 it's like seventy degrees and you're like hunting in your 1:32:47.800 --> 1:32:49.760 t shirt and you're like, God, it isn't that weird. 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:52.000 It was like, you know, two feet of snow here 1:32:52.040 --> 1:32:54.479 a couple of weeks ago. They thought it'd be that, 1:32:54.760 --> 1:32:58.840 but it just got worse, deeper, worse, deeper, and they 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:01.439 lingered too long, and then it became impossible to back out. 1:33:01.640 --> 1:33:03.600 And when you talk about worse and deeper, like the 1:33:03.720 --> 1:33:08.200 numbers are astounding, like the amount of snowfall in that area, 1:33:08.520 --> 1:33:12.559 they'll get sixty feet a snowfall in Donner Pass. 1:33:12.880 --> 1:33:16.320 They're climbing, they make these all these little shelters. We'll 1:33:16.320 --> 1:33:18.519 talk about those in a minute. They're getting to where 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:25.759 they're climbing tunnels up out of their shelters. You climb 1:33:25.880 --> 1:33:29.040 out and pop out on the surface and they're cutting wood. 1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:31.679 There's pictures later where there it be a dude standing 1:33:31.760 --> 1:33:34.200 on dry ground. Yeah, and way up above his head 1:33:34.240 --> 1:33:36.439 is a cut off tree, Yeah, thirty feet and he 1:33:36.520 --> 1:33:39.880 realized that's where they were cutting wood, walking around on 1:33:39.920 --> 1:33:42.200 top of all that snow. But here's where all this 1:33:42.280 --> 1:33:45.880 whole Donner party shit changes for me, is it's ninety 1:33:45.920 --> 1:33:49.040 people over half a little kids. You never think about that, yeh, 1:33:50.280 --> 1:33:52.839 No one ever thinks about it's little kids. 1:33:53.040 --> 1:33:54.800 Yeah, And. 1:33:56.560 --> 1:34:00.839 Like, statistically the little kids were more likely to survive, 1:34:02.320 --> 1:34:05.960 and also statistically parents of little kids were more likely to. 1:34:05.880 --> 1:34:09.559 Survive, and statistically women were more likely to. 1:34:09.560 --> 1:34:11.240 Survive, more likely to survive. 1:34:11.200 --> 1:34:16.719 That the people who did who fared the worst were 1:34:17.120 --> 1:34:18.400 unattached bachelors. 1:34:18.520 --> 1:34:23.040 Yeah, a handful of reasons, like supposed reasons why they 1:34:23.040 --> 1:34:25.200 were already working their. 1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:27.920 Ass saatigued from the trip out that far that. 1:34:27.840 --> 1:34:31.120 They were assuming all this work, doing all this stuff, 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:34.760 so they're going into it very lean. Meanwhile, people who 1:34:34.760 --> 1:34:36.880 had been able to ride in the wagons weren't as 1:34:36.960 --> 1:34:39.519 physically depleted. There's also like a little bit of a 1:34:39.520 --> 1:34:42.719 psychological element there winds up being this group decides eventually 1:34:42.720 --> 1:34:44.000 to make a break for it, and it's called the 1:34:44.040 --> 1:34:46.519 Forlorn Hope Party. And they make a break for it 1:34:46.520 --> 1:34:50.160 in the California direction. They're going to cross Dinner paths. 1:34:50.160 --> 1:34:51.760 They're almost to the top of Donner Pass. They're going 1:34:51.800 --> 1:34:54.880 to cross the pass and go for it on foot. Yeah, 1:34:54.920 --> 1:34:56.800 on foot. They make no issues. They think they'll do 1:34:56.840 --> 1:34:58.639 They think they'll be there in some number of days. 1:34:58.680 --> 1:35:01.760 It takes weeks. Of the people that left on that 1:35:01.800 --> 1:35:09.840 Forlorn Hope Party, parents lived, people with, people with relatives 1:35:10.120 --> 1:35:12.920 at the camp. Yeah, other people just are like fuck 1:35:12.960 --> 1:35:16.120 it and just died, you know, because they probably got 1:35:16.120 --> 1:35:20.200 where there was no point, you know, And there is cannibalism, 1:35:20.200 --> 1:35:24.080 but it's like, you know, these people were condemned for 1:35:24.080 --> 1:35:25.720 a long time for it, but when you start looking 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:29.599 at it, was like you start getting it. Like they 1:35:29.600 --> 1:35:36.920 did everything they could possibly do, everything they could possibly 1:35:36.960 --> 1:35:39.120 do to keep their families alive. And I don't think 1:35:39.120 --> 1:35:40.360 anyone would do anything differently. 1:35:41.280 --> 1:35:43.960 I think the only thing that would be done differently 1:35:44.120 --> 1:35:46.840 in a modern context, and I mean this in all seriousness, 1:35:46.880 --> 1:35:50.400 is that cannibalism would have started much earlier. I think 1:35:50.439 --> 1:35:54.640 that you're talking about a time when people are you know, 1:35:54.680 --> 1:35:57.519 we talk about in Roanoke like the last thing to go, 1:35:57.600 --> 1:36:01.480 or religious practices. These are peopleeople who are highly religious 1:36:01.520 --> 1:36:06.120 and highly driven to live by that code, and that 1:36:06.160 --> 1:36:09.840 code is very specific about eating other folks, you know, 1:36:10.160 --> 1:36:15.200 and they hold on for what would seem like forever, 1:36:15.520 --> 1:36:19.000 just a torturous amount of time of starving to death, 1:36:20.240 --> 1:36:23.800 trying to scrape food together in any way they can 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:26.920 before they before they start eating people. 1:36:27.080 --> 1:36:33.879 Yeah, there's one dark element to it. They it seems 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:35.880 like no one really knows all the details. But if 1:36:35.880 --> 1:36:37.880 you look at all the journals and evidence and all that, 1:36:37.920 --> 1:36:42.920 it seems like cannibalism with one exception. Cannibalism was limited 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:46.879 to people eating people who had starve to death. Okay, 1:36:46.960 --> 1:36:49.519 they're eating people would starve to death. But there's a 1:36:49.560 --> 1:36:52.000 guy in the dinner party who's kind of like, throughout 1:36:52.040 --> 1:36:54.200 the whole story kind of emerges as a real asshole. 1:36:56.120 --> 1:37:01.200 He murders two Native American guides that they have. But 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:05.840 at that time that was not illegal. It would have 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:09.320 been illegal to shoot someone's cow, it was not illegal 1:37:09.360 --> 1:37:14.120 to murder two Native Americans. He outright murders two Native 1:37:14.160 --> 1:37:18.760 Americans to eat them, and then later everybody knows that 1:37:18.800 --> 1:37:20.160 he did. He just lives his life. 1:37:20.600 --> 1:37:23.280 Yeah, not picked up. 1:37:23.320 --> 1:37:25.639 They talked about doing something. No one ever did anything 1:37:25.640 --> 1:37:29.080 to that dude. And there's also all these other crazy stories, 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:33.720 like one of the search parties, as it's told, like 1:37:33.800 --> 1:37:36.320 it was quite a sight when search parties started to come. 1:37:36.360 --> 1:37:38.080 But when search parties came, they had to kind of 1:37:38.120 --> 1:37:40.800 ferry them out. Like a search party shows up and 1:37:40.800 --> 1:37:44.000 they can only take a handful of people, so they're like, okay, 1:37:44.000 --> 1:37:46.480 everybody wait here. They take a handful of people to California. 1:37:46.600 --> 1:37:48.800 Come back one time. They come back and as the 1:37:48.840 --> 1:37:53.479 story goes, here's a guy holding walking along with a 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:57.160 human leg and sees the search party people and has 1:37:57.160 --> 1:38:03.160 the wherewithal to throw it down in the snow. My 1:38:03.280 --> 1:38:08.840 dog tries that trick, like you got busted. We met 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:11.439 with an archaeologists that dug one of the camps. They 1:38:11.479 --> 1:38:16.120 were at two different camp two primary camp locations, and 1:38:16.160 --> 1:38:21.599 they dug one of the camps and found the remains 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:25.240 of all kinds of stuff that they were they were eating. Uh. 1:38:26.120 --> 1:38:28.360 At one point early on, they killed a bear, they 1:38:28.439 --> 1:38:31.559 killed a grizzly early on, they killed dogs, They had 1:38:31.640 --> 1:38:32.880 oxen they killed. 1:38:33.960 --> 1:38:37.600 They had lots of small games, deer. 1:38:37.680 --> 1:38:42.960 Rodents and stuff they were killing, and they were they 1:38:43.240 --> 1:38:44.599 One of the things they were doing is they were 1:38:44.600 --> 1:38:47.160 eating animal hide. So early on they had no way 1:38:47.200 --> 1:38:49.479 to feed their oxen, so they were killing the oxen 1:38:49.520 --> 1:38:52.240 and just eating the meat. And then later they started 1:38:52.240 --> 1:38:54.960 revisiting it and they started eating the bones. But when 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:57.040 they killed them, they used the hides to help them 1:38:57.080 --> 1:38:59.760 make roofs and doors on structures. They were making like 1:38:59.760 --> 1:39:01.840 ten like structures with hides. We made one of these 1:39:01.880 --> 1:39:05.519 structures with this rotten ass cow hide, uh, and slept 1:39:05.520 --> 1:39:12.360 in there. It was one of the worst smelling rotting cowhide, 1:39:12.680 --> 1:39:14.360 and we use it for a shelter. It was a 1:39:14.360 --> 1:39:15.960 great shelter. I mean, you could keep a lot of 1:39:16.000 --> 1:39:18.160 warmth in that thing with a fire, like you could 1:39:18.160 --> 1:39:22.640 make a warm in air. But stank. We got like 1:39:22.640 --> 1:39:26.479 a little chimney and stuff coming out there. Uh So 1:39:28.240 --> 1:39:29.160 how was I getting in with that? 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:32.920 We were talking about the animals that they. 1:39:34.160 --> 1:39:37.920 They started eating the hides, and then they started boiling 1:39:37.960 --> 1:39:40.720 the bones and crushing the bones and boiling and eating 1:39:40.720 --> 1:39:43.200 the bones. And there's a thing I read after the 1:39:43.200 --> 1:39:45.360 fact that I really wish I had read before we 1:39:45.400 --> 1:39:48.080 did it. A guy happens to give me. One of 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:51.280 our podcast guests, Randy Brown, gives me a book called 1:39:51.320 --> 1:39:55.679 Death on the Barren Ground, and it's this journal of 1:39:55.680 --> 1:39:57.960 of It's a journal of one guy who was in 1:39:58.000 --> 1:40:00.360 a party of three people and they all starved death. 1:40:00.920 --> 1:40:04.080 The youngest guy lives longest, and he keeps a meticulous 1:40:04.160 --> 1:40:08.200 journal chronicling the starvation death of his two companions and 1:40:08.240 --> 1:40:11.840 then chronicling his own death of starvation. Okay, and they 1:40:11.840 --> 1:40:13.960 all die in the nineteen twenties in the Canadian Arctic 1:40:14.000 --> 1:40:18.439 along the Thelon River. It's so crazy because they wind 1:40:18.520 --> 1:40:22.000 up eating that exact same diet they had been trapping, 1:40:22.080 --> 1:40:25.599 so they had wolverines and stuff, and they're eating wolverine hides, 1:40:25.640 --> 1:40:27.880 weasel hides that they had built up before they started 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:31.960 to starve to death, and they're eating bones and what's 1:40:32.080 --> 1:40:37.040 killing them Like they're dying of starvation, yes, but what's 1:40:37.080 --> 1:40:42.719 really killing them is these terrible bottle obstructions because they're 1:40:42.760 --> 1:40:46.160 eating that boiled, crushed bone. In the absence of other stuff, 1:40:46.200 --> 1:40:51.720 they're trying to build makeshift enema devices and they're literally 1:40:51.880 --> 1:40:56.960 digging out of each other's rectums, dried gobs of crushed 1:40:57.000 --> 1:41:01.080 bone and like that are forming in of these gelatinous 1:41:01.120 --> 1:41:05.040 balls from that boiled animal hide. And then the hair follicles, 1:41:05.080 --> 1:41:07.840 because you're eating, you're scraping the hair away, but there's 1:41:07.840 --> 1:41:11.360 all that hair follicle, and that hair follicle is joining 1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:14.240 up into balls of hair. When they find these guys' 1:41:14.240 --> 1:41:17.280 bodies a couple of years later, the Royal Mounted Police 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:20.479 do like a report. They are nothing but skeletons, but 1:41:20.520 --> 1:41:23.880 there's still what he describes as a plate of excrement 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:29.320 in the cabin of this bone ball. 1:41:30.120 --> 1:41:30.640 Concrete. 1:41:31.360 --> 1:41:37.800 Yeah, they talk about And so we met with an 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:40.519 archaeologist who worked on this bone project. And then I 1:41:40.640 --> 1:41:42.920 later was like after we met, after we got done 1:41:42.920 --> 1:41:45.840 film in our episode, I sent her, I was like, hey, 1:41:45.840 --> 1:41:48.639 for your work. Here's this great journal of like what 1:41:48.720 --> 1:41:51.280 happens when you eat these diets, and like that's what 1:41:51.439 --> 1:41:54.639 killing that's what's killing those guys, these guys, these Canadian 1:41:54.720 --> 1:41:57.599 Arctic guys, what's killing them? They would have died anyway, 1:41:57.600 --> 1:42:02.080 But what's like the immediate biggest problem them is that 1:42:02.080 --> 1:42:06.800 that the bowel obstruction and digestive problems of eating, like 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:11.240 non edible. Yeah, needing eating non digestible stuff in a 1:42:11.320 --> 1:42:12.200 state of desperation. 1:42:12.360 --> 1:42:15.200 Yeah, they talk about, you know, in in dinner, they 1:42:15.240 --> 1:42:18.880 talk about boiling those bones so many times boiling and 1:42:18.920 --> 1:42:22.760 reboiling that they get something called pop polish, which is 1:42:22.960 --> 1:42:26.680 like they basically turned to porcelain in that pot as 1:42:26.720 --> 1:42:30.120 they try to extract whatever nutrients they can out of 1:42:30.960 --> 1:42:32.599 out of what's left of the bone. 1:42:32.800 --> 1:42:35.479 We boiled up some raw hide. Yeah, and its like 1:42:35.560 --> 1:42:37.560 you can make it pretty edible, man, when you boil it. 1:42:37.640 --> 1:42:39.320 Actually it's actually not that. It's like, why is it 1:42:39.320 --> 1:42:44.840 being like quite flavorless and has a most out of umi. 1:42:47.640 --> 1:42:51.160 More of the broth that that wasn't the rotten that. 1:42:53.280 --> 1:42:56.360 We talked about. 1:42:54.080 --> 1:42:59.240 It safe for consumption. 1:42:58.920 --> 1:43:00.439 Yeah, we had had. We had a handful. 1:43:00.560 --> 1:43:02.040 If you're starving out there, you need it. 1:43:02.600 --> 1:43:04.960 Yeah. We did some snow shoes. They made snow shoes. 1:43:04.960 --> 1:43:07.000 We mocked up some snow shoes. We worked with the 1:43:07.000 --> 1:43:09.280 guy that spent some time, spent a lot of time 1:43:09.360 --> 1:43:10.120 hiking the path. 1:43:10.240 --> 1:43:10.439 You know. 1:43:12.680 --> 1:43:17.040 But uh yeah, man, being in the dinner pass, you're 1:43:17.040 --> 1:43:18.479 like there eight, I can tell you one thing ain't 1:43:18.520 --> 1:43:19.320 ship to eat here. 1:43:20.880 --> 1:43:24.200 We tried to hunt like you know, squirrels, small game. 1:43:24.439 --> 1:43:26.880 You end up like in an hour, you burn more 1:43:26.880 --> 1:43:30.040 calories than you could possibly hunt, you know, for the 1:43:30.080 --> 1:43:30.519 whole day. 1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:33.400 It's just like it's just it's like it's a subalpine. 1:43:33.439 --> 1:43:36.360 It's like like it's rocket. 1:43:36.400 --> 1:43:41.280 Yeah, it's it's not like that. It's but it's i mean, 1:43:42.160 --> 1:43:44.080 at a certain point it's like almost like what's the difference. 1:43:44.120 --> 1:43:47.519 Yeah, it's like it's subalpine. It's like fifty percent of 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:50.960 every surface is rock and you got little like dwarfed 1:43:51.040 --> 1:43:54.160 up spruce and fur and there's some there's some pond 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:55.920 of roses here and there, but it's just like a 1:43:56.240 --> 1:43:59.680 very poor ground. And you talk to guys there, like 1:43:59.720 --> 1:44:03.360 we talked the hunters there, and hunters are like, dude, 1:44:03.360 --> 1:44:06.080 the first whiff of snow, yeah, everything they do not. 1:44:08.600 --> 1:44:09.839 Snowf on the country. 1:44:10.000 --> 1:44:12.839 Yeah. Yeah, they're like you come up in the summer, 1:44:13.400 --> 1:44:16.560 but they're gone, they're gone early. Yeah, you know, this 1:44:16.720 --> 1:44:19.000 is nothing. There's nothing. I mean they killed like a 1:44:19.479 --> 1:44:22.639 like a some crows whatever here and there. 1:44:22.760 --> 1:44:25.799 Yeah, but again nothing nothing that was enough to replace 1:44:25.840 --> 1:44:28.920 the calories they were burning on it. So it's a 1:44:29.120 --> 1:44:31.920 it's what was fascinating to me about that story is 1:44:31.960 --> 1:44:34.120 like you go in, you know, and I think this 1:44:34.240 --> 1:44:36.240 is like throughout the series, you go in like with 1:44:36.320 --> 1:44:40.240 one concept. Yeah, you're like dinner party, you know, cannibals, 1:44:40.720 --> 1:44:43.880 like I get it, Like you don't get it at all. 1:44:44.040 --> 1:44:47.040 And you when you when you do the research, and 1:44:47.160 --> 1:44:50.920 in conjunction with doing the research, spend time in the 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:54.840 place trying to do the things that they have done, 1:44:55.080 --> 1:44:57.960 you have a completely new perspective on it. And so 1:44:58.040 --> 1:44:59.720 you go into the story being like, Wow, what a 1:44:59.720 --> 1:45:02.519 bunch of like fools that ended up eating each other 1:45:02.640 --> 1:45:05.080 in the mountains, And you come out of it being like, well, 1:45:05.120 --> 1:45:07.439 what a bunch of heroes. Yeah, you know, this is 1:45:07.479 --> 1:45:11.000 the level of heroics that went into saving those kids. 1:45:11.400 --> 1:45:15.679 There's a great story about one of the women who 1:45:15.800 --> 1:45:19.080 stayed back at h at one of the two sites, 1:45:19.120 --> 1:45:22.040 which was Donner Lake. Is right at the at the 1:45:22.200 --> 1:45:27.519 end of Donner Lake, she's basically responsible for all these kids. 1:45:27.760 --> 1:45:33.000 You know, she delivers as the story goes, she delivers 1:45:33.040 --> 1:45:36.640 the last kid to that rescue party and then just 1:45:36.720 --> 1:45:40.600 leans up against the cabin wall and and dies, you know. 1:45:40.640 --> 1:45:43.519 And it's and it's the story is like full of 1:45:43.560 --> 1:45:49.040 these little, these little sub stories like that that that 1:45:49.320 --> 1:45:54.200 just I find like incredibly moving and like a total 1:45:54.280 --> 1:45:58.559 rewrite of what I understood of of that history. 1:45:58.960 --> 1:46:00.960 Now, I kept vowing that I was gonna stop making 1:46:01.000 --> 1:46:07.759 any and all Donner jokes, Donner Family, Christmas, Donner Dinner Party. 1:46:09.400 --> 1:46:12.559 No I stuck to it. Now, you know, we were 1:46:12.640 --> 1:46:17.840 joking like, did you know that Saddam Hussein has books 1:46:17.840 --> 1:46:20.960 of poetry? So just like you could say, like, you know, 1:46:21.000 --> 1:46:24.760 the poet Saddam Hussein. No one says that, right, he 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:27.040 has a novel, so you can say the poet novelist 1:46:27.080 --> 1:46:30.559 Saddam Hussein. You'd never say that. So now when someone 1:46:30.640 --> 1:46:35.360 say from now on, I might actually yeah, when we 1:46:35.400 --> 1:46:39.600 overthrew the poet novelist Saddam Hussein. Uh So, now you 1:46:39.640 --> 1:46:41.960 know you'd be like Donner Party. You know, I'm gonna 1:46:41.960 --> 1:46:45.000 start doing something similar, but the opposite. I'm gonna say, oh, 1:46:45.040 --> 1:46:48.280 the heroes the Donner Party. Yeah, I'm not gonna say, oh, 1:46:48.439 --> 1:46:51.280 dirty cannibals. I'm gonna say, you know, the heroes the 1:46:51.320 --> 1:46:53.759 Dinner Party saved all those kids, saved all those children, 1:46:54.200 --> 1:46:56.240 wonderful story of hope. 1:46:56.960 --> 1:46:59.560 You know, one of our finest moments. 1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:01.559 There's an half of them died, half of them. 1:47:01.520 --> 1:47:04.680 Lived, almost half of them died, more than half of 1:47:04.720 --> 1:47:10.600 them lived. And the other little sub note, And you 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:12.800 don't make this the last thing on this, but like 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:16.360 I love the fact that his name the Donner, you know, 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:18.479 the Donner Party and Donner Pass, and we know it 1:47:18.520 --> 1:47:23.240 as the Donners when you get into history. George Donner 1:47:23.960 --> 1:47:27.759 stopped because he had he had wounded his hand trying 1:47:27.800 --> 1:47:34.280 to trying to build a wagon wheel. He cut his hand, 1:47:34.600 --> 1:47:37.880 and uh, and it was festering, so he stopped six 1:47:37.960 --> 1:47:43.679 miles short. George Donner after which the entire fiasco is named, 1:47:44.200 --> 1:47:46.320 never even saw the pass. YEA. 1:47:48.760 --> 1:47:52.240 He died of an infection. He got a somewhat superficial 1:47:52.280 --> 1:47:54.040 caught on his hand. He thought he'd be fine. Dies 1:47:54.080 --> 1:47:57.559 of an infection, that's great, and never lay his eyes 1:47:57.600 --> 1:48:00.439 on the pass. Gets rich and there's there's a lot, 1:48:00.600 --> 1:48:03.000 I mean, there's so much more like they had. You know, 1:48:05.160 --> 1:48:07.760 they had gotten into an internal fight on the way 1:48:07.840 --> 1:48:13.840 and had like a fatality from internal squabbling, and they 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:17.639 the I believe it was the Piute as they were 1:48:17.680 --> 1:48:23.639 approaching the past, the Piute in Nevada where really whittling 1:48:23.640 --> 1:48:26.599 the way on their livestock. They had all these all 1:48:26.640 --> 1:48:29.200 these normal problems, should say no, yeah, yeah, all the 1:48:29.200 --> 1:48:32.840 problems typical of people trying to cross right. They weren't. 1:48:32.840 --> 1:48:37.960 They weren't like exceptional in any way. And then then 1:48:38.320 --> 1:48:42.160 doing during the gold Rush, people resumed flooding over that thing, 1:48:42.200 --> 1:48:46.120 man flooding over that past. And now you're standing there 1:48:46.120 --> 1:48:48.479 and there's like the highway doesn't go that way, there's 1:48:48.479 --> 1:48:51.519 a highway that goes over it. There's another highway over it. 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:53.840 And you standing look and be like, who in the 1:48:53.880 --> 1:48:55.920 hell would think you could get a wagon through here? 1:48:56.560 --> 1:48:58.400 Yeah, I feel like I've seen the signs. 1:48:58.560 --> 1:49:00.840 It is a wicked it's unreal pass. 1:49:00.920 --> 1:49:03.280 It's unreal. I mean they they took the wagons apart 1:49:03.360 --> 1:49:06.479 and block and tackle pulled them up, the pulled them 1:49:06.560 --> 1:49:10.880 up those cliffs. And now it's like, you know, you're 1:49:10.880 --> 1:49:14.760 within earshot of people going eighty five miles an hour 1:49:15.720 --> 1:49:16.519 on a freeway. 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:19.439 That's just so funny, just driving in to do our work, 1:49:19.600 --> 1:49:23.400 driving into film, Like I get into the airport, find arena, Yeah, 1:49:23.520 --> 1:49:26.760 find arena and start driving up the highway and you 1:49:26.800 --> 1:49:29.799 get to a sign and it says like Sacramento seventy 1:49:29.800 --> 1:49:30.360 two miles. 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:31.840 Yeah, like what fuck? 1:49:32.080 --> 1:49:37.920 Yeah, better make a reservation. What's exactly problem? 1:49:38.200 --> 1:49:39.240 Af chang there? 1:49:41.080 --> 1:49:43.360 Yeah, seeing that signe it'd be like in your mind like, 1:49:43.400 --> 1:49:45.479 oh shitting hour will be there. Yeah, we'll be over 1:49:45.520 --> 1:49:47.439 the mountains and out the other side and down in 1:49:47.479 --> 1:49:50.000 the valley of the hour. You know, imagine the ship 1:49:50.160 --> 1:49:53.639 that like what that seventy two miles meant? Back then? 1:49:53.680 --> 1:49:56.639 It's so funny you're on that highway. Also, I had 1:49:56.640 --> 1:50:05.160 this like deflated feeling. I'm like, oh, cool story, what pansies? 1:50:05.360 --> 1:50:10.000 Anybody could make it over there? Watch over there in 1:50:10.080 --> 1:50:13.880 an hour? Man. That was great. So that that's we 1:50:13.960 --> 1:50:14.479 covered three. 1:50:14.960 --> 1:50:16.639 Yeah, yeah, there's five more. 1:50:17.000 --> 1:50:20.280 So. We did one on the oldest shipwreck in the 1:50:20.280 --> 1:50:22.960 Great Lakes, the first ship to sail the Upper Great. 1:50:22.800 --> 1:50:24.519 Lakes, another fascinating story. 1:50:25.439 --> 1:50:28.160 We did one on the mysteries of the first Americans. 1:50:28.600 --> 1:50:32.439 We did one on we should have got well, we 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:34.120 should have got into cattle mutilations. 1:50:34.200 --> 1:50:37.360 Cattle mutilations is a lot of fun. It's a lot 1:50:37.360 --> 1:50:40.120 of fun too, because like that. There's another one where 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:42.639 I like, I know I went in with one perspective, 1:50:42.760 --> 1:50:46.680 it was like bullshit, like you walk away man, Like 1:50:46.720 --> 1:50:49.680 oh oh boy, yeah. 1:50:49.439 --> 1:50:51.439 Yeah, you know, I was thinking about if we wanted 1:50:51.520 --> 1:50:56.080 to do a podcast on cattle mutilations. I can't think 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:57.720 of which one of the people we talked to be 1:50:57.720 --> 1:51:00.920 best to have on. Oh all good. We had to 1:51:00.920 --> 1:51:02.280 get a cam, a panel. 1:51:04.040 --> 1:51:06.439 Enough here for most of the people in the Yeah. 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:06.760 True. 1:51:06.760 --> 1:51:07.400 I don't know if you can. 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:11.120 Say community, but uh what else we got? 1:51:11.160 --> 1:51:14.000 Man, it's a big community. I mean, there's a lot 1:51:14.080 --> 1:51:16.240 of people out there that have had these experiences. 1:51:16.320 --> 1:51:19.760 Here's one for people. We did one. We did one 1:51:19.920 --> 1:51:23.240 on a thing now known as the Alaska Triangle, which 1:51:23.280 --> 1:51:26.760 is a portion of Alaska that some argue has like 1:51:26.800 --> 1:51:32.000 this insane rate of disappearances aircraft, missing people, ships. But 1:51:32.040 --> 1:51:34.720 we we examined it through the lens of a particular 1:51:34.800 --> 1:51:38.400 flight called the Beggage Bogs flight again from the seventies, 1:51:38.520 --> 1:51:44.040 where the speaker of the house Hailbogs. Who if you're 1:51:44.080 --> 1:51:47.760 an NPR fan, the journalist Koki Roberts who recently passed away, 1:51:48.120 --> 1:51:50.960 Kochi Roberts. Have you ever listened to NPR news and 1:51:51.000 --> 1:51:53.960 you heard the journalist Cookie Roberts her father was Hailbogs. 1:51:54.160 --> 1:51:57.280 He was the Speaker of the House. Alaska had one Congressman, 1:51:57.400 --> 1:52:01.240 Nick Beggage, and the speed of the house. So like 1:52:01.320 --> 1:52:08.800 the Speaker of the House, who's it now, Johnson uh 1:52:09.320 --> 1:52:14.360 Baggage and Bogs? Or on a plane with a congressional 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:17.920 aid in a pilot and the plane goes missing and 1:52:18.040 --> 1:52:22.320 is still missing today has never been found. Most of 1:52:22.320 --> 1:52:25.240 the search area focused around. The search area for long 1:52:25.280 --> 1:52:28.800 time focused around a glacier that they thought perhaps it 1:52:28.840 --> 1:52:31.040 had gone into a glacier, and you'd be like, what 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:33.400 do you mean by that? But we went to in 1:52:33.800 --> 1:52:36.160 doing it, we went to a place where a plane, 1:52:36.479 --> 1:52:41.120 a much bigger plane with many many more passengers, did 1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:44.000 get eaten by a glacier and then many years later 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:46.160 regurgitated at the toe of the glacier. 1:52:46.680 --> 1:52:53.600 It's absolutely fascinating. They crashed this, this globe master, you know, 1:52:53.720 --> 1:52:58.679 big prop plane, military transport members on it, on top 1:52:58.720 --> 1:53:03.599 of this mountain. It falls into a crevass, snowed over, 1:53:04.200 --> 1:53:10.599 and seventy years later, this massive glacier, colony glacier spits 1:53:10.640 --> 1:53:13.839 it out the bottom just as just piece shredded pieces 1:53:13.960 --> 1:53:14.719 of metal. 1:53:14.880 --> 1:53:18.640 Every year the military every summer, the military goes and 1:53:18.680 --> 1:53:21.080 they scoured the tour of that glacier and there's still 1:53:21.120 --> 1:53:24.439 identifying it would be just finger bones, and there's still 1:53:24.439 --> 1:53:28.360 identifying service members. And when we went, we flew over 1:53:28.400 --> 1:53:31.400 in a helicopter. We didn't want to land there because 1:53:31.400 --> 1:53:34.320 it's like, oh you know, it's almost like a gravesite. 1:53:35.680 --> 1:53:38.160 We flew over after it did this summer's work and 1:53:38.200 --> 1:53:43.120 there's orange spray paint circles. Wow, all along that glaciers, 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:44.920 not all on, but through good chunk of that there's 1:53:44.920 --> 1:53:48.000 like orange spray paint markers and arrows and circles where 1:53:48.000 --> 1:53:51.599 they were recovering debris. The engines came out in big pieces, 1:53:51.600 --> 1:53:54.479 but a lot of it's just it's just like it pulled, 1:53:55.200 --> 1:53:56.439 it pulled, rides it to gravel. 1:53:56.600 --> 1:54:00.960 Yeah, so you know, just a massive garbageposal and you 1:54:01.000 --> 1:54:03.960 think what it does to mountains. Yeah, yeah, there's this 1:54:04.000 --> 1:54:08.160 a little plain man made a small aircraft. 1:54:08.720 --> 1:54:11.479 But what's crazy is what's crazy is on this one, 1:54:11.479 --> 1:54:14.800 the baggage Bog's flight, the glacier they were looking at. 1:54:14.880 --> 1:54:16.880 They spent a lot of time on this glacier. The 1:54:16.920 --> 1:54:20.600 glaciers receded so much and it's been so long that 1:54:20.640 --> 1:54:22.919 when you look at the rate of flow of the glacier, 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:26.559 you can now rule out that it was in that glacier, 1:54:27.160 --> 1:54:28.960 because it was in that glacier to spit it out 1:54:29.000 --> 1:54:33.400 by now, but except the bottom of it. 1:54:33.480 --> 1:54:35.560 So this is this is what like, and this is 1:54:35.600 --> 1:54:38.360 what's so cool is each one, each little facet of 1:54:38.400 --> 1:54:42.040 each one of these mysteries has all these permutations, all 1:54:42.040 --> 1:54:45.920 these possibilities. Like what's cool about that is that glacier 1:54:48.080 --> 1:54:52.040 as as it as it, you know, kind of came 1:54:52.080 --> 1:54:56.480 down the mountain and into the basin, dug out a 1:54:56.600 --> 1:55:00.320 lake that's eight hundred feet deep, dude, just. 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:02.040 Like you can paddle a canoe crosses like some bitches, 1:55:02.080 --> 1:55:02.800 eight hundred. 1:55:02.520 --> 1:55:03.840 Feet eight ft pep. 1:55:03.880 --> 1:55:05.440 It's in one edge of it is just a wall 1:55:05.480 --> 1:55:09.680 of ice. So yeah, it could have spat it out 1:55:09.680 --> 1:55:11.600 into eight hundred feet of water and a little crumpled 1:55:11.640 --> 1:55:16.800 up pieces. My guess to spoiler alert, I think it's 1:55:16.800 --> 1:55:21.760 a Prince William sound, yeah, which is deeper, yeah, and 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:24.880 muckier and way bigger. Yeah, I think it's a Prince 1:55:24.880 --> 1:55:27.200 William sound. And I'm not like out on a limb 1:55:27.240 --> 1:55:31.280 when I say that, But Uh, they focus very heavily 1:55:31.680 --> 1:55:37.080 in one pass and one glacier at first and this doue. 1:55:37.120 --> 1:55:40.440 This pass we go through it with a plane. There's 1:55:40.480 --> 1:55:42.400 a pass where you're like going it's like the worst 1:55:42.440 --> 1:55:44.920 pass in the world, like you know, a passion everything 1:55:44.960 --> 1:55:47.000 like a straight thing. It's a pass where you like 1:55:47.800 --> 1:55:49.920 when you're the worst part of the past, you gotta 1:55:49.960 --> 1:55:51.960 take a forty five. You gotta not sorry, you gotta 1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:56.120 take a ninety degree turn. So you're going like sharp left, 1:55:56.480 --> 1:55:58.720 sharp right, get out there into a head wall and 1:55:58.800 --> 1:56:00.520 it's takes incredible you fly. 1:56:00.520 --> 1:56:03.920 To the end of this this you know of turning 1:56:04.000 --> 1:56:08.240 and arm right, this massive kind of valley. It's first 1:56:08.280 --> 1:56:11.560 at first a body of water and then this valley 1:56:11.840 --> 1:56:14.839 Portage pass and then and then Portage glacier and Portish 1:56:14.920 --> 1:56:17.080 Lake who we were talking about. And as you get 1:56:17.120 --> 1:56:18.960 to the very end of it, you make a ninety 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:22.760 degree turn and only then can you see whether or 1:56:22.800 --> 1:56:25.160 not the pass is open. And if it's you. 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:29.160 Gotta check for oncoming aircraft too, Yeah, And if it's 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:31.960 not open, you just got to keep turning and and 1:56:31.960 --> 1:56:33.440 and do a one eighty and. 1:56:33.400 --> 1:56:34.480 Go right back to anchorage. 1:56:34.480 --> 1:56:36.160 When we're sitting there. In the past. We hiked up 1:56:36.160 --> 1:56:37.640 in the past and we went down this lake. We're 1:56:37.640 --> 1:56:41.280 sitting there. After a while, we watched a plane. He 1:56:41.320 --> 1:56:44.920 gets up there, comes back, comes back and his head's 1:56:44.960 --> 1:56:48.360 back to anchorage. He's like, Nope, not today, closed up 1:56:48.400 --> 1:56:53.520 that day the sketchy pass. Yeah, but yeah, man, on 1:56:53.680 --> 1:56:56.160 the what date? Yeah, January twenty eighth, if you want 1:56:56.200 --> 1:56:56.800 to watch the show. 1:56:56.840 --> 1:56:58.960 If people are listening to this, the day it drops 1:56:58.960 --> 1:57:02.200 it is the twentieth, So it'll be weekend a day 1:57:02.240 --> 1:57:03.160 from now, the twenty eighth. 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:04.480 Yeah, molds gonna do credits. 1:57:07.120 --> 1:57:11.000 It wasn't quite the it wasn't quite the setup. I 1:57:11.040 --> 1:57:13.080 was like, I was like kind of hintings, like, let's 1:57:13.120 --> 1:57:14.400 kind of steer the last part of. 1:57:14.320 --> 1:57:19.960 The contents poved in this and I'm not listening. I 1:57:20.040 --> 1:57:24.080 want to say for you, I want to still yeah Mo, 1:57:24.840 --> 1:57:28.480 and I'm joking yeah, talk about who, talk about who 1:57:28.520 --> 1:57:28.960 he worked with. 1:57:29.560 --> 1:57:32.680 I mean it is again as we talked about it, 1:57:32.800 --> 1:57:34.120 like the beginning of the show, I'll try to make 1:57:34.120 --> 1:57:36.120 a seguay. Now you're not going to do the work. 1:57:38.240 --> 1:57:39.840 As we talked about the beginning of the show, it's 1:57:39.880 --> 1:57:42.360 like there's a lot that goes into these shows. This 1:57:42.480 --> 1:57:45.200 is not just like it's like, oh, you got to 1:57:45.360 --> 1:57:46.880 show greenlit, you go out and make it. This is 1:57:47.480 --> 1:57:51.000 years and years of like grinding in what's called the 1:57:51.040 --> 1:57:54.720 development process. You take a show concept and you develop 1:57:54.800 --> 1:57:56.920 a deck on it, and you pitch it to various 1:57:56.960 --> 1:58:01.600 networks and and so I like, it's we got to 1:58:01.600 --> 1:58:03.920 give credit to the people who did that work. It's 1:58:03.960 --> 1:58:05.320 the hardest part of making TV. 1:58:05.800 --> 1:58:10.760 Like going way back would be the constant attention of 1:58:11.400 --> 1:58:12.840 Ben Ford and Mark Pierce. 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:16.480 Exactly ben Ford, Mark Pierce, Bridger Pierce, Chris Richardson and 1:58:16.680 --> 1:58:19.240 all the people over at Warm Springs who really like 1:58:19.720 --> 1:58:24.200 shepherded this project from concept to like something that actually 1:58:24.240 --> 1:58:25.520 has funding and you're gonna go. 1:58:25.440 --> 1:58:28.360 Out And on my end, it was my wife Katie. Yeah, 1:58:28.480 --> 1:58:31.160 that's right, drove it on my end for a long time. 1:58:31.320 --> 1:58:34.040 So I also I need to thak because she's the 1:58:34.040 --> 1:58:34.800 one that called me. 1:58:37.680 --> 1:58:38.960 I's like, God, don't call. 1:58:42.600 --> 1:58:44.840 You know. So you have this tremendous group of people 1:58:45.000 --> 1:58:47.680 here that we got to partner with and work with 1:58:47.720 --> 1:58:49.400 and like the part that we do, like that's the 1:58:49.600 --> 1:58:51.320 that's the fun part. And got on the field and 1:58:51.400 --> 1:58:54.000 hang out and go to the cabin and you know, 1:58:54.320 --> 1:58:56.360 get to do all the fun stuff fly around on 1:58:56.760 --> 1:59:00.400 you know, glaciers and and all that. But on the 1:59:00.440 --> 1:59:03.440 other side, when we talk about the network, like, what 1:59:03.600 --> 1:59:06.080 was really great about this experience in this show is 1:59:06.080 --> 1:59:08.480 like we had a tremendous team at the network too. 1:59:09.040 --> 1:59:13.080 I've had a lot of network experiences. It often is 1:59:13.320 --> 1:59:15.680 the case that you're getting network notes that are like, 1:59:16.240 --> 1:59:18.160 don't like this, don't like this, don't like this. It 1:59:18.200 --> 1:59:24.400 don't like provide any constructive path forward. What's really unique 1:59:24.440 --> 1:59:31.240 here is working with like Max Mcaliffe, Mary Donahue, Alexander Hicks, 1:59:31.360 --> 1:59:38.080 Eli Lair. Their notes are their notes are very, very 1:59:38.120 --> 1:59:42.200 pointed and very constructive, and it's a huge part of 1:59:42.240 --> 1:59:45.800 what has made this show successful. So I've never worked 1:59:45.800 --> 1:59:48.720 for this network before, you know, and instead of coming 1:59:48.760 --> 1:59:51.600 in and having to like just operate in the blind 1:59:51.640 --> 1:59:55.280 and figure things out, this is like incredibly you know 1:59:55.640 --> 2:00:01.280 response of an adept team that's got a blueprint for 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:04.160 how you make these you know, these shows. And it 2:00:04.240 --> 2:00:07.760 was a real, like real learning experience for me telling 2:00:08.120 --> 2:00:09.480 these kinds of narratives. 2:00:09.720 --> 2:00:10.320 That's great, man. 2:00:10.600 --> 2:00:13.240 So it was all around. It's just been It's been 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:17.080 an awesome experience. I hope we get renewed and you 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:17.760 can do it again. 2:00:20.640 --> 2:00:24.120 It comes out the show's hunting History comes out on 2:00:24.360 --> 2:00:29.600 History Channel ten pm Eastern. I could do the math 2:00:29.600 --> 2:00:36.800 all across the whole country, nine Central, What happens eight 2:00:36.880 --> 2:00:39.720 miles Mountain, seven dollars. 2:00:43.880 --> 2:00:45.840 Ten o'clock in the Lost Colony. 2:00:47.400 --> 2:00:49.160 Five or something like that. You figured it out, You'll 2:00:49.160 --> 2:00:52.440 figured it out Alaska on the History Channel, and it 2:00:52.600 --> 2:00:54.880 follows the show. That was funny is a lot of 2:00:55.040 --> 2:00:57.000 most people we talked to when we're working on our 2:00:57.040 --> 2:01:01.040 show and we talked about working with History Channel, they 2:01:01.080 --> 2:01:03.520 bring up how they can't. They don't like to miss 2:01:04.200 --> 2:01:06.800 Curse of Oak Island. So it's right after curseve oak 2:01:06.840 --> 2:01:09.840 Island on his channel premiere January twenty eight. Then you 2:01:09.880 --> 2:01:10.880 can watch for eight weeks. 2:01:12.080 --> 2:01:14.560 Yeah, next year we'll make eight more. 2:01:14.600 --> 2:01:16.560 You'll watch the whole thing and never get to ce Mo. 2:01:17.800 --> 2:01:19.200 So you have to watch here if you want to 2:01:19.200 --> 2:01:22.320 see Mo, check him out. I trust that Moe was there. 2:01:22.760 --> 2:01:26.800 It's actually technically not true. I'm really I'm really bothered 2:01:26.800 --> 2:01:30.200 by one shot in uh Alaska Triangle where I'm like 2:01:30.680 --> 2:01:33.840 I'm in this sweatshirt. I'm trying to I don't know 2:01:33.880 --> 2:01:35.640 if I can get over my headphones, so I'm trying 2:01:35.680 --> 2:01:38.960 to trying to hide in the back of the helicopter 2:01:39.200 --> 2:01:41.520 like this as we're had a cameo. 2:01:41.840 --> 2:01:43.120 Yeah, that's cool. 2:01:42.920 --> 2:01:44.920 And you can see. Man, it's just like, who is that. 2:01:45.560 --> 2:01:48.560 There's a weird dude in the helicopter. 2:01:49.440 --> 2:01:55.960 Your lives are at risk. There's a skyjacker. He's gonna joke. 2:01:57.320 --> 2:01:59.000 Thanks everybody for tuning in man, and I hope you 2:01:59.080 --> 2:02:00.880 check out the show, and I hope you have as 2:02:00.960 --> 2:02:03.520 much fun watching as we had putting it together. Thank 2:02:03.600 --> 2:02:05.200 you and thanks, thank you,