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Speaker 1: If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything.

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Speaker 2: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 2: for ELK, First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 2: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com. F I R S T L I t

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Speaker 2: E dot com. Joined today by Morgan Fallon and doctor Randall.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Randall's just here to look good. Yes, if anything

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Speaker 2: comes up you need to talk about, they'll raise your hand.

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Speaker 3: We're just trying to interject with some quips, some observations.

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Speaker 2: Please Mo. Mo Fallen Man uh uh, I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: think of where to begin. Well, Mo, found was the

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Speaker 2: original so a billion years ago. Mo, I'm gonna give

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Speaker 2: your I'm gonna help you with your bio. Then you

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Speaker 2: fill it in.

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Speaker 4: Okay, go for it.

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Speaker 2: No, how does it okay? Most longtime producer cinematographer. If

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Speaker 2: you've seen the movie I know this. When you were

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Speaker 2: a youngster, you worked on the movie Ali Michael Man's Alia.

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Speaker 4: I was Michael Man's assistant on Ali. Wow.

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Speaker 2: MO filmed a million episodes of Biggest Loser.

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Speaker 4: Yes, ninety six episodes.

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Speaker 2: MO. I did a show many years ago on travel Channel.

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Speaker 2: MO filmed all of that. MO filmed all of the

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Speaker 2: first met Eaters. Yeah, a bunch, Ye traveled all over

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Speaker 2: Hell for three years. Yeah, MO made MO made me

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Speaker 2: eater look like what me eater looks like? Yeah, you

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Speaker 2: designed the show. Yeah, I mean a handful was did,

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Speaker 2: but you like put you made the look.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, I guess so. Yeah, with the camera for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: the way the camera interacts, you know, with you on

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Speaker 4: the show for sure.

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Speaker 2: And at that time you were already doing were you

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Speaker 2: already working on Boordain at that time?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So I started working with Bordain in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and eight, so it predated when we met. But that

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Speaker 4: was the reason I was able to meet you was

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Speaker 4: because I had done that and that had gone pretty well.

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Speaker 4: And so zero point zero, the company that produced Boordaen,

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Speaker 4: they called me when they hooked up with you.

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Speaker 2: Talk about tell everybody about just tell the whole story

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Speaker 2: of the years you spent on the Boordain show. The

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Speaker 2: whole story was I mean, like I don't know, give

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Speaker 2: me like ten minutes worth man.

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Speaker 4: Ten cool?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean why, I like what, because that's going

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Speaker 2: to land us where we're landing. That's going to land

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Speaker 2: us with us, you know. I mean unfortunately it lands

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Speaker 2: us with us being so like reunited on our new project.

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Speaker 2: But I mean you had like you lived like a

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Speaker 2: whole you lived a whole lifetime.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean yeah, it gets into all kinds of

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Speaker 4: complicated stuff, man, because like I mean, I'll start at

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Speaker 4: the beginning. I got called randomly by a by a

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Speaker 4: friend of mine who's the chief cinematographer, one of the

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Speaker 4: two chief cinematographers for Bordei and Zach Zamboni, and they

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Speaker 4: had had a camera operator cancel last minute on a

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Speaker 4: trip to Egypt, and it was the phone call was

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Speaker 4: basically like, you know, do you have a passport.

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Speaker 2: That was your in Yeah, a cancelation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. They're like, do you have a that's a tough

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Speaker 4: show to get on sure. I mean, like, dude, I

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Speaker 4: was clicking my heels. Man, They're like, do you have

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Speaker 4: a passport? Can you go to Egypt next week? And

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Speaker 4: I was like one hundred percent, there can go and

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Speaker 4: uh and I went and it went really well with Tony,

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Speaker 4: which is which is rare, you know, like it's these

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Speaker 4: like a very kind of particular person. It was a

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Speaker 4: very set, you know, kind of particular set of criteria

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Speaker 4: that you kind of needed to meet to work on

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Speaker 4: that show. Like you had to be able. He had

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Speaker 4: to be able to hang out with you. You had

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Speaker 4: to be cool enough to hang out. You had to

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Speaker 4: not be a dick. You had to treat the people

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Speaker 4: who are taking us into their lives as if they're

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Speaker 4: as if you're a guest in their world and not

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Speaker 4: you know, some arrogant TV producer who comes in and

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Speaker 4: is just gonna, you know, stomp all over them.

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Speaker 2: So he was sensitive to how he was sensitive to

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Speaker 2: how you guys behave to the people you were around.

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Speaker 4: I think that was actually like the number one criteria man.

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Speaker 4: But but if you think about it, it sets the

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Speaker 4: tone for the whole show. The show is not us

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Speaker 4: sitting you know, five thousand miles away and my you

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Speaker 4: know office in Los Angeles and saying like, what is

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Speaker 4: the story I can tell about these people's lives? You know,

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Speaker 4: it was like the the show was like we are

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Speaker 4: going to go here and we're going to figure out

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Speaker 4: what the story is of these people lives and they're

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Speaker 4: the ones that are going to tell us, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I think that whole tone was set by this

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Speaker 4: idea that you're you're a guest, and you are a guest.

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Speaker 4: You know, you're traveling around the world and absorbing other

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Speaker 4: people's lives in a commercial enterprise. You can't be considered

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Speaker 4: anything but a guest, right, And so those were a

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Speaker 4: couple of like the just criteria he had set forth

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Speaker 4: for like people who kind of fit on the show

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Speaker 4: and worked well. I got that called I did. The

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Speaker 4: show went really well. I think he particularly liked me

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Speaker 4: because I was willing to risk my physical well being

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Speaker 4: and or life for a shot. You know, at the time,

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Speaker 4: I was young and didn't have kids, so I was

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Speaker 4: able to make a lot of stupid decisions I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: make now.

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Speaker 2: But you should at some point tell the story about Brazil.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was probably more me overreacting than anything.

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Speaker 3: What's the example that comes to mind though.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean that first show we went across the

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Speaker 4: western desert or a big portion of the western desert

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Speaker 4: in Egypt with the Bedouin, right, and they all uniformly

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Speaker 4: drive these late seventies land Cruisers, which is a super

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Speaker 4: cool car. But then this is a weird little footnote.

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Speaker 4: There some places in the world where you go where

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Speaker 4: they drive land Rovers, and there's some place in the

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Speaker 4: world where you go there where they drive land Cruisers,

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Speaker 4: you know, and a lot, a lot of the world

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Speaker 4: can be got two automotive choices. Right there are a

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Speaker 4: land Cruiser country. And I had no idea what we

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Speaker 4: were doing. I had never been on the show. It's

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Speaker 4: like my third day on the show. I had never been,

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Speaker 4: you know, worked on the show before. We're driving out

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Speaker 4: into the desert and I was like, oh, hop on

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Speaker 4: the top of the car and you know, shoot shots

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Speaker 4: of the cars, you know, slowly picking their way through

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Speaker 4: the dunes, and you know, like five minutes later, we're

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Speaker 4: going eighty five miles an hour. I am hugging for

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Speaker 4: my life this four post bed that they for some

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Speaker 4: reason had strapped to the top of the car, which

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Speaker 4: I still can't explain. I think they thought Tony was

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Speaker 4: some kind of like Prima Donna that was going to

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Speaker 4: need a four post bed out in the you know,

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Speaker 4: the desert. That's man. Anyways, I'm like holding onto this

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Speaker 4: thing with one hand shooting with the other and we

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Speaker 4: get to we get to where we're camping and I've

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Speaker 4: got this just massive bicep size hematoma you know, on

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Speaker 4: my arm. Oh, and Tony saw it and that was it. Man.

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Speaker 4: It was like he was like started talking to me,

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Speaker 4: he started asking me a question, he looked at me,

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Speaker 4: you know, these like kind of novel things at that point.

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Speaker 4: And I got a call from Chris and Lydia, the

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Speaker 4: owners of ZPZ after, and they're like, Tony likes you,

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Speaker 4: which is super rare, so like, you know, we're going

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Speaker 4: to do this a bunch more.

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Speaker 2: And that started.

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Speaker 4: Ten ten years of traveling with him. Now that's that's

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Speaker 4: intermingled with when I got called to first work with you,

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Speaker 4: which was christ and Lydia called me and they're like, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe this guy will like you too. And

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Speaker 4: they showed me that original presentation piece of you sitting

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Speaker 4: in the park in Brooklyn. You grab the squirrel, right,

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Speaker 4: pigeon pigeon, sorry.

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Speaker 2: You.

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Speaker 4: Grab a pigeon, You take it home and cook it,

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Speaker 4: and they're like, we want to this, we want to

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Speaker 4: make this a show. And it just like it immediately

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Speaker 4: for me, like I felt like it immediately clicked. I

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Speaker 4: was like, oh yeah, that's like that's super cinematic, super dynamics,

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Speaker 4: a really interesting philosophy. It's totally unlike anything I'd ever

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Speaker 4: seen before. And they called me to come and do

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Speaker 4: that original presentation piece we did where we're we're in

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Speaker 4: the you know, in the swamp up by your house, yep.

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Speaker 4: And it was like I think we met in like

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Speaker 4: a out back parking lot or something, and within half

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Speaker 4: an hour we were like neck deep in a swamp

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Speaker 4: and I was like totally hooked, man, totally hooked.

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Speaker 2: That was the Miskegan River Marsh, Yeah, yeah, and Miskegan.

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Speaker 2: That's that's the county I grew up in, a Michigan Miskegan.

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Speaker 2: I should go fact check this. I've heard it my

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Speaker 2: whole life. Song of trust. It is true. Miskegan means

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Speaker 2: it's it's a native word that means big swamp. M

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Speaker 2: I hope there you go. That's well, you know, I

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Speaker 2: can say this, I can say that's what they told me.

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Speaker 2: They told me that.

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Speaker 4: But the thing but you know, the important thing about

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Speaker 4: that and the reason I remember that moment so well,

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Speaker 4: it's just like it all it just all clicked, you know,

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Speaker 4: you're like, oh, this is like, this is kind of

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Speaker 4: the best of both worlds, because you wanted to make

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Speaker 4: TV that was about like ideas, you know, and at

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Speaker 4: the same time like it had the inherent kind of

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Speaker 4: action and dirtiness and kind of throwing yourself into a swamp.

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Speaker 4: That that that makes for good TV.

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Speaker 5: It's from an Algonquin word meaning Marshie River.

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Speaker 4: Enough, very like.

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Speaker 2: Phil could get his paycheck just for doing a little

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Speaker 2: ship like that, just saving the day. Tell me again

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Speaker 2: what it means, Phil.

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Speaker 5: It's an Algonquin word meaning Marshi River.

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Speaker 2: God, that's exactly what it is too. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I wonder where they got it.

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Speaker 2: Never thought look that up. Good job, Phil, Oh yeah anytime. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they really gone through life saying it meant big swamp,

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Speaker 2: and you would have been right sort of. Do I

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Speaker 2: want to tell the No, I'm not gonna tell the joke.

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Speaker 2: Growing up? What it meant? You were through everything we've

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Speaker 2: talked about so far. You're you were a camera guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you like you don't uh for listeners, Moe is

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Speaker 2: the most most kind of bashful, modest You were an

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Speaker 2: exceptional camera guy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this at this particular little niche of this World.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very much. So, Yeah, Mo was a exceptional cameraman,

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Speaker 2: was uh combining. Nominated an Emmy, but I should just

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Speaker 2: say nominated for Emmy. Did you ever win an enemy?

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Speaker 2: Did you win one?

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Speaker 4: I've got yeah, I've got two in two different categories

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Speaker 4: and ten nominations.

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Speaker 2: Geez, what did you get the two?

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Speaker 4: It one for cinematography and one for producing.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, okay, I knew you were nominated, but

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Speaker 2: I guess I spaced the fact that you won one. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I sat through a lot of long ceremonies without one,

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Speaker 4: so you get to the end, like over four and

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Speaker 4: a half hours. In my life, I think the best

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Speaker 4: example of that is what we got nominated up against

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Speaker 4: Free Solo. And so when we're sitting next to the

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Speaker 4: you know, we're sitting next to them, and the whole

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Speaker 4: time just being like, I mean, there's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like that was going to play out.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean it's like take a canoe out

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Speaker 4: against like the USS Lincoln. Yeah, you can paddle a

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Speaker 4: good canoe, man, but it's only so much you can do.

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Speaker 2: And then uh, you moved out of that eventually got

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Speaker 2: into producing, yeah, and then produced like a bunch of episodes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was kind of twofold. You know, like

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Speaker 4: I came up always in camera because during that original

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Speaker 4: job working for Michael mann I, he had just handed

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Speaker 4: me a camera at one point he was just like,

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Speaker 4: shoot everything that happens, you know, backstage, which was like

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Speaker 4: not a normal film for cool shit happening backstage. It's

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Speaker 4: like you're hanging out at the gym with like all

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Speaker 4: e and those kinds of things.

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Speaker 5: So I started.

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Speaker 4: I filmed a bunch of behind the scenes stuff and

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Speaker 4: they used a bunch of it to make this HBO

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Speaker 4: documentary about the film. And that's what got me started shooting.

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Speaker 4: It's like it never required cameras, never required any real

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Speaker 4: training or effort. I pick them up and it just

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Speaker 4: inherently understood everything I needed to understand to be an

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Speaker 4: exceptional camera operator. And it just clicked for me, you know.

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Speaker 4: And the ninety six episodes The Biggest Loser. It's funny now,

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Speaker 4: but that show shot me to you taught me to shoot.

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Speaker 4: You know. It's like you're ten hours a day, you

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Speaker 4: got the camera on your shoulder and you're just constantly

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Speaker 4: having to figure out the geometry of camera blocking and

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Speaker 4: movement and telling characters stories and tying things in together,

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Speaker 4: all the stuff that you need to do to be

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Speaker 4: a good camera operator. We were just practicing it every day.

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Speaker 4: And so when I got out in the field with you,

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Speaker 4: and I got out in the field with Tony, I

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Speaker 4: was able to use all of those like narrative tools

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Speaker 4: as well as just Yet at that time in my

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Speaker 4: life was like a total athlete and a badass. Not

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Speaker 4: anymore at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you should, you know, you should tell

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Speaker 2: people Box it's interesting about you is a mo your

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Speaker 2: your folks taught at a boarding school. Ye, and then

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Speaker 2: you went to the boarding school. So you were like

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Speaker 2: a towny yeah, and a student.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you know what I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, Yeah I do. I totally know what you mean.

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Speaker 2: And if for any I don't mean you, I mean folks. Oh, no,

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Speaker 2: you were a town student, right, for anyone.

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Speaker 4: Who grew up in a town with a boarding school,

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Speaker 4: you'll understand the dynamic, especially an East Coast boarding school.

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Speaker 4: It's uh, it's it's an interesting it is an interesting dynamic.

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Speaker 4: I got the worst of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you maybe best. I think you got

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Speaker 2: the best.

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Speaker 4: Of both worlds. I didn't get the best of.

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Speaker 2: Both worlds ha and the students.

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Speaker 4: To the townies, I was, I was like, you know,

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Speaker 4: I was like a stale prep schooler yea. And to

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Speaker 4: the you know, to the students, I was like a

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Speaker 4: faculty brat Towney. You know, I didn't really so it

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Speaker 4: was miserable for the first three years. And then like

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Speaker 4: and then I realized, like, wait a second, I have

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Speaker 4: a car, and I can go wherever I want. And uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, I I can. I can exist with all

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Speaker 4: the benefits of being from town.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 4: And I can. I can you know, choose from the flock.

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Speaker 6: Of of of of all these you know, really beautiful,

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Speaker 6: blue blooded you know prep school girls got that.

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Speaker 2: It ended up working out pretty well in the And

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Speaker 2: this is in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 4: It's in New Hampshire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did you grow up around ken Burns like in

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Speaker 2: his zone?

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Speaker 4: Now? I mean, well, if you grow up in New Hampshire,

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Speaker 4: you grow up around everyone else who's in New Hampshire,

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Speaker 4: you know, just by proximity the size of the state.

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Speaker 4: So he was about an hour away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And what was that lake you guys are.

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Speaker 4: On We're on winnipes hockey. Yeah, it was great lake beautiful. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it stunning.

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Speaker 2: How was when you when you got out of being

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Speaker 2: a camera guy, Yeah, and you you moved into producing,

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Speaker 2: How did you ever get over the feeling of wanting

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Speaker 2: to yank the cameras away from the camera guys.

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Speaker 4: Yeah it was. It was really hard for a long

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Speaker 4: time and created quick a fair amount of conflict with

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Speaker 4: camera sure, cinematographers on set, but.

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Speaker 2: Give me that thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was a lot fiery, Yeah, a lot

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Speaker 4: more fiery then at that point my lex stomp over

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Speaker 4: and grab the camera and pull it off the tripod,

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Speaker 4: and you know, not not not good behavior. As I've

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Speaker 4: gotten older and I've become more seasoned as a producer

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Speaker 4: and director, I've learned to be much more mellow about

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Speaker 4: the mistakes I see in camera, and much more constructive,

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Speaker 4: and you know about how how kind of interact with

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Speaker 4: with camera folks and and use the fact that I

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Speaker 4: can speak their language in a way that isn't just

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Speaker 4: like completely insulting and demoralizing to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so uh. In total, how many years as

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Speaker 2: you spent working on the various bord Ain properties?

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Speaker 4: Ten ten years with Tony It's like it comes out

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Speaker 4: to like seventy five shows or something that were that

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Speaker 4: are either produced or shot directed. I for a couple

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Speaker 4: of the shows. At the very end, I was co

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Speaker 4: directing with my wife, which was awesome, kind of the

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Speaker 4: best part of the experience.

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Speaker 2: And then that ship was just all of a sudden, uh,

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Speaker 2: just over. I mean, you know, we've talked about it

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Speaker 2: a little bit, but if you wouldn't mind, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of giving people an idea of what, you know, the

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Speaker 2: degree to which any job for ten years, but not

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Speaker 2: only you know, any job you have for ten years,

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Speaker 2: and so abruptly and so tragically, but the way it was,

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Speaker 2: the way that kind of work really created a they

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Speaker 2: created like a complete lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a lifestyle that was, like say, I mean,

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Speaker 4: incredibly awesome at times and in certain way is not

337
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Speaker 4: super healthy, and an absolutely extraordinary opportunity to see the

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Speaker 4: world in a way that only a very, very very

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Speaker 4: small handful of people get to see it. I try

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Speaker 4: to tell the story of what it was like, and

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Speaker 4: you can only really do it by, you know, in

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Speaker 4: a million different little pieces anecdotes and this and that,

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Speaker 4: But you can't really ever, you can't really, I can't

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Speaker 4: really ever articulate the full experience. I try to tell

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Speaker 4: people this thing that I think some people get and

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Speaker 4: a lot of people don't. But there's a scene at

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Speaker 4: the end of Lord of the Rings, right the new movies,

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Speaker 4: where they've just gone on this like unbelievable adventure that

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Speaker 4: like really only the four of them understand, and they

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Speaker 4: go back to the Shire and they're they're sitting back

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Speaker 4: in their favorite bar and the Shire and everyone's carrying

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Speaker 4: on around them, and they just kind of sit there

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Speaker 4: in silence and look at each other. And I guess

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Speaker 4: that's how I feel about It's a there's a very

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Speaker 4: small group of people who went through that experience with me,

356
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Speaker 4: and when I'm with them, we understand each other and

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Speaker 4: implicitly understand the experience. We went through, the highs and lows,

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Speaker 4: the ending, all of the all of the things that

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Speaker 4: came with it. But I can't really I can't, you know,

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Speaker 4: the world around that goes on in a way that

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Speaker 4: I can't really see in the same way anymore, And

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Speaker 4: I can't really explain it to the people, even the

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Speaker 4: people I love. Luckily, my wife got to work on it,

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Speaker 4: so she understands. My dad asks about it all the time.

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Speaker 4: I can't really fully explain it. It's I think I

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Speaker 4: would imagine and in no way am I comparing myself

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Speaker 4: to a soldier, but I would imagine it's the same

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Speaker 4: kind of thing that soldiers go through, where they they

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Speaker 4: can only really fully understand the experience between themselves, you know,

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Speaker 4: and when they're together, there's a comfort that comes by

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Speaker 4: that kind of shared experience, and outside of it, there's

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Speaker 4: a kind of discomfort. You know. I believe we went

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Speaker 4: through very similar things, you know, on the on Mediator

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Speaker 4: and on wild Within before that, where as we try

375
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Speaker 4: to figure things out, how do you really how do

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Speaker 4: you really explain you know, those experiences.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at that at that age, you know, at that

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Speaker 2: age and time, it sounds so weird. But I would

379
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Speaker 2: have a hard time. Uh, I would have a hard

380
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Speaker 2: time bouncing from the one world to the other.

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Speaker 4: Between the two worlds.

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Speaker 2: Just going like I wanted to be home and loved

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Speaker 2: being home, but it was it was the pacing was

384
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Speaker 2: so different.

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Speaker 4: It was super hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would become weird.

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Speaker 4: It was super hard. And for a long time I'd

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Speaker 4: come home and like, you know, my wife would getting

389
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Speaker 4: fights and there's all kinds of like and I'm like oh, so,

390
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 4: you know, eventually you realize it's like it's all me

391
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Speaker 4: and what I'm bringing back into the house. I learned

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Speaker 4: over time how to decompress in the hour ride from

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Speaker 4: the airport to home and not bring it in the house.

394
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Speaker 4: But it took me a long time and some more

395
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Speaker 4: maturity to be able to figure that out, because for

396
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Speaker 4: a long time I'd carry all of that energy back

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Speaker 4: in the house.

398
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Years ago, my wife told me, just detecting that

399
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Speaker 2: little bit of uh that travels a lot for work.

400
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 2: Probably aren't stand it, but like coming out of one's pacing,

401
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 2: coming out of one thing and then moving into a household,

402
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 2: especially little kids, and you're with these kind of you're

403
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: with like really high performing people and a fast paced thing,

404
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 2: and you're focused on a single thing and you're kind

405
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 2: of like camping out or living out, and all of

406
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: a sudden you're in and like little kids. And she

407
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: I'd never called her bluff, but she would say, hey,

408
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: if you need to, why don't you when you come

409
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 2: home go stay in a hotel for night? Yeah then

410
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 2: come yeah, And I got the message, and I never

411
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: did that totally. I think that would have been the

412
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: one worst thing you know, but it's like, but when

413
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Speaker 2: you come in the house, man, you're walking into an

414
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: active household like little kids, you know what I mean,

415
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 2: you got to transition quick. And their thing that she'd

416
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: always said is she's like, if it's not a big

417
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: deal when you go away, and you don't want it

418
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 2: to be a big deal when you go away. You

419
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 2: want to just slip out the door. It's not gonna

420
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 2: be a big deal when you come home. Right, it's

421
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: not gonna be like balloons and shit. Right, You're walking

422
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: into an active environment and you gotta get with the program.

423
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 4: Well, you're working. I was just gonna say, you're walking

424
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Speaker 4: into a program. And I think that's the difference. And

425
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 4: when you talk about like documentary, you know, making documentary content,

426
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: I think it's actually particularly different than other kinds of

427
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 4: work too, because you're in such a reactive environment. You're

428
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 4: constantly reacting to sensory input that's coming in in the environment,

429
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 4: and so you're super high key, you know, trying to

430
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 4: figure out all of all of these things and what

431
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 4: does it mean and how do you navigate this to

432
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 4: tell the story. And then there's logistics and physical just

433
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 4: the sheer physical nature of going out and shooting in

434
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 4: these environments. All of it has you in this very

435
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: visceral mode and then you're like walking back into like

436
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 4: a program with like really specific you know, structure and

437
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 4: guidelines and it needs to be that way.

438
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: Ton of night, Like let's go get an ice cream.

439
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: It's hard to code switch.

440
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: Nope, not going to get an ice cream ten o'clock totally.

441
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean that's a big that's a that's

442
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 4: definitely a big part of it, A big part of

443
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 4: it all along in terms of making a relationship and

444
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 4: like a household work.

445
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: And you filmed the you did the last correct me

446
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, but you're you directed the very like

447
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: the last ever board in episode because the last one

448
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: didn't become one, right.

449
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 4: The last two didn't become one, so.

450
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 2: So they never they didn't finish your Italy one.

451
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 4: No, it was shelved.

452
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: It was you wrapped the episode.

453
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, we shot the whole thing. It was it was

454
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 4: it was. It was probably from a selfish perspective, best

455
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 4: episode of TV. I.

456
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: I guess it makes sense because all the post production everything,

457
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: and yeah, well it's.

458
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 4: We produced shows after Tony had died, Like I did

459
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: a show in Marfa and in West Texas. It was

460
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 4: all inspired by the time we had spent down there

461
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 4: and that show. Tony died before we finished that show,

462
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: and so you can watch that show and there's none

463
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: of his kind of very famous voiceover the show is

464
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 4: it's it's looser. It doesn't have that connective tissue because

465
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 4: he wasn't around to record it. In the case of Florence, like,

466
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 4: there were things in the show that were just simply

467
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 4: too painful to the people in his immediate orbit, or

468
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 4: we thought could have been too painful to people in

469
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 4: his immediate orbit to release the show, and so a

470
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 4: decision was made just to shelve that footage. It was

471
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 4: used in Morgan Neville's documentary Roadrunner. We used some of

472
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: that footage, but it was I mean again, it was

473
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: probably the best show.

474
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: Like we had.

475
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 4: We we like had the Alfizi Gallery shut down. We

476
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 4: had it all to ourselves.

477
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: You know.

478
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 4: The Fizi Gallery is one of the most famous museums

479
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 4: in the world. It's like, yeah, you think of like

480
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 4: the very famous Bodacelli's like Primavera, and uh, all of

481
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 4: the those those paintings are there. It's like the one

482
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 4: of the pre eminent museums in Italy. And you can,

483
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 4: you know, just imagine from there what that means.

484
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: They're therefore the world.

485
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 4: Therefore the world, you know, he's talking about the heart

486
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 4: and soul of you know, Renaissance artwork is all contained

487
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 4: right there. And say, and we had that, we had

488
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 4: the place to ourselves, and we went to some crazy places,

489
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 4: standing like standing at the South Pole was pretty amazing.

490
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 4: But standing in the Bodaicelli wing of of Thefizi Gallery alone,

491
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 4: like I took a selfie, is no one else there

492
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 4: that's about us unless you wax floors for a living.

493
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 4: That's about as rare as I guess, you know. And

494
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 4: that's what I mean about, like this opportunity to see

495
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 4: the world in ways that you know, who gets to

496
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: do that, you know, like you'd have to be in

497
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 4: the very very very upper echelons of society, which I'm

498
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 4: not to be able to do that on your own.

499
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 4: Millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of funding

500
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 4: to shuttle our asses around the world, you know, and

501
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 4: see the things that we got to see.

502
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 2: So when when you walked away from that, what did

503
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: you start doing? I'm kind of getting to the part

504
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: where you and me worked on our new project together.

505
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: But did you just take some time.

506
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 4: Off when I walked away from that and not.

507
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: Walked away whatever it ended, you know, I mean that

508
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: was your job, right, that.

509
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: Was my job. Yeah. Yeah, if there's some stuff in

510
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: the middle there though, that's like that we've never talked about.

511
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 4: That's like, it's probably shit we should talk about. Like

512
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 4: I had to make a decision at one point to

513
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: leave like meat Eater and everything that we had created

514
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: doing this in order to do that, and and it

515
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 4: was like a super super difficult decision because here, like

516
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 4: I didn't create that show.

517
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: M M.

518
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: I was a participant in that show. I didn't create it.

519
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: Like yeah, like if we were like but that's like

520
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: the equivalent of the you and me are like roommates

521
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden someone buys you a house.

522
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be like, yeah, it's a bummer that you're

523
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: moving out, MO.

524
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 4: But I mean, I mean, this is yeah, but this

525
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: is where your humility comes into plate man, Like it was,

526
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: it's more than that, Like I remember.

527
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: No, I remember being I remember you like struggling with it.

528
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: But to me, it wasn't a you know.

529
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well in the end, like it's a it's a

530
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: decision I had to make right, Like again, I knew

531
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 4: what I knew what was on the line. I had

532
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: been on the show before, and when the show moved

533
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: from Travel Channel to CNN, Tony was like, I like,

534
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 4: I want you to come like full time, and you

535
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 4: just like, you just can't. You can't pass up that opportunity.

536
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: You just you can't pass up that opportunity to see

537
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 4: the world like that. And uh. And there were a

538
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 4: couple of like career things, I like boxes I wanted

539
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 4: to check too, you know. Yeah, but it was it

540
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 4: was hard, man, and it was hard to go like

541
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: in that direction and go do that and then watch

542
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 4: everything that you've built, you know, subsequently. So when I

543
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: got the call to like to come back to work,

544
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: I was, I was stoked. It was great.

545
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: A the timing well, I don't want to say the

546
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: timing was good because it was such a because the

547
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: things we discussed, like the fact that you were I

548
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: mean this is years ago now, but that you were

549
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: you became like a free agent after doing after working

550
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: on board.

551
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 4: A for extausely I had been I had been with

552
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: ZPZ on staff for fourteen years, which is still amazing

553
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 4: to me. But then, you know, after Tony died, I

554
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 4: worked I did another three years with w camal Bell

555
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 4: doing United Shades of America, which was kind of an

556
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: interesting thing too, because like that was very much focused

557
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: not only on like American culture and like domestic issues,

558
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 4: but a pov on American culture and domestic issues that

559
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 4: I could literally never attain myself. So I'm just not

560
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 4: I'm just I'm not a black dude in America. And

561
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: so I was able to go and travel around with

562
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 4: Cabal and and see things from his perspective, which was

563
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 4: really profound. And then once we wrap that show up

564
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 4: with another two Emmy nominations us on that one, I left.

565
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 4: I left zero point zero and went out freelance and

566
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 4: started show running and uh and so yeah, there's a

567
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 4: little time in there, which is good because I needed

568
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 4: to learn how to show run.

569
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: Before you called no good, I'm glad you learned.

570
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 4: I learned a little bit.

571
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: So just for uh, for listeners, a little bit, MOA's

572
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: talking when probably I probably explained this for Hi'm sure

573
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: something's in the air and everybody's got like, are you

574
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: having like a throat.

575
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: Film clear nominated for an Emmy.

576
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: No film Randall. They don't come together, but doctor Randall,

577
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: I have not been nominated. We got nominated for James

578
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: Beard Award, which you didn't get.

579
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 4: I was, I was, I was at that.

580
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: We were at that dinner.

581
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 4: No, it wasn't at the dinner. I didn't go to dinner.

582
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 4: But I remember when we got the nomination a couple

583
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 4: of fort We were in Mexico when we got that

584
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 4: first one. We were hunting turkeys in Mexico. Oh really, yeah,

585
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 4: I remember down on that that ranch down there we

586
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 4: got we went, we shot a buffalo and uh and

587
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: a bunch of turkeys.

588
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh. Give a brief bit of history here for

589
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: for for folks, Moo is the story. But Mo's been

590
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: talking about zero point zero Production, So just try to

591
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: explain a little bit of a little show business education. Generally,

592
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: like zero point zero Production is a television production company.

593
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: How it generally works in TV production in the old days?

594
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: Is it the production company winds up being like a

595
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: contractor building a house. Right, a homeowner comes, they said,

596
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: I want a house, I got plans for it. It looks

597
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: like this, I'm handing it over to you. You're the contract.

598
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: You come in and build the house. Once you build

599
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 2: the house, it's all set. You hand the keys over

600
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: to the person that bought it and you walk away

601
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: and it's their propert. They might do more houses with you,

602
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: but that's how it goes. Do you finish the house,

603
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: hand it to them For all you folks. I'm sure

604
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: everyone listening, I'm sure has seen episodes of No Reservations

605
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: and Parts Unknown. So this company, zero point zero Production,

606
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: produce all of those shows.

607
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 4: And it's important to note develop the original concept too.

608
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: Which was Cook's Tour.

609
00:32:59,600 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 4: Right.

610
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: So if you go way back and I like remember,

611
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: I vividly remember this happening is Anthony Bourdain's book Kitchen Confidential.

612
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: I remember it coming out. I remember being excerpted in

613
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 2: the New Yorker, and like they took, they came in,

614
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: optioned it, made a deal, started building this whole thing.

615
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: When we started making Meet Eater with zero point zero,

616
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: we built media where we just owned we owned Meat

617
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: Eater and just license it out. So in the old days,

618
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: in many many, many of the first years of Meat Eater,

619
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: I made Meat Eater as a joint venture, like we

620
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: were fifty to fifty business partners and we owned me

621
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: Eater as a joint venture between me and Zero point

622
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: zero Production. Later we had the opportunity I was approached

623
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: by a company that that invested in digital media properties.

624
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: So one you might know is uh, they were invested

625
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: in Barstool Sports and kind of were a majority owner

626
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: and bar our Stool Sports. It was with the guy

627
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: that had been the chair of news Courts, so Fox News,

628
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: and they had a group called TCG, and we took

629
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: an investment from TCG to build me Eater and do

630
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: a thing, and then over time didn't have involvement with

631
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 2: Zero point zero anymore, and overtime MO didn't have involvement

632
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: with Zero point zero anymore. This is all a long

633
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: rambling way of leading into this project that we're working

634
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: on now that Mo and I are just putting a

635
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: rap on. Our work on all these episodes is coming

636
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: out of all those years of making me Eater. I

637
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: started talking to a friend of mine, Mark Pierce, who

638
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: owns warm Spring Productions, and some of the guys on

639
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: his team, and we started talking about this idea of

640
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: doing a show around outdoor mysteries, wilderness mysteries, and we

641
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: had baked it along pretty good, made an arrangement with

642
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: History Channel. We're gonna you know, we're gonna call it

643
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: Hunting History. We're gonna do it in partnership with History Channel.

644
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: And eventually we needed, like, what's called a showrunner? You

645
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: should explain what a showrunner is. I wasn't even really

646
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: clear on what a showrunner was.

647
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 4: I mean, you can think of it.

648
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: I almost asked that a minute ago.

649
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 4: It's basically like a project manager, you know, so you're

650
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 4: you just have oversight over the whole project tip to toe,

651
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: which requires, you know, it requires a lot of different

652
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 4: kind of skill sets.

653
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: Does that include like creatively, what's an episode? What's note

654
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: from that?

655
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, very much. Moe was originally hired to be

656
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: a director, and then it moved up to being from

657
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: a director that moved up to being the showrunner the

658
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: kind of like primary driver of all things, and still

659
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 2: directed the show, still directed the show.

660
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like it should be a more prestigious

661
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: sounding title a showrunner. To me, it would be like

662
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: a I think of like a bike messenger, and it

663
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 3: should be called to mind a very different set of responsibilities.

664
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: I know, it should be seriously you branded, yeah, showrunner

665
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: Like he's like a dude that runs around. Yeah.

666
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 4: The title that people would see on screen as executive

667
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 4: producer gotcha.

668
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyone that knows show business knows that could

669
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 2: mean a variety of things.

670
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: That's a wide, wide cash all phrase.

671
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: A tip for people watching, for all you people that

672
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: love watching credits and movies. When you see EP, yeah,

673
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: apply like a healthy dose of skepticism because you a

674
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: lot of activities can capture you the EP. A check, right,

675
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: A check can get you EP. Or it's that you

676
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 2: spent twenty years bleeding for a project, right yeah, put

677
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: your life savings, mortgaged your house. In the end you're

678
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: an EP. Or later it's all done and you're like, oh,

679
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 2: I'd like to be involved in that. I can be helpful.

680
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden there's a EP too,

681
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: and those two people are like, oh, mate, you have

682
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: you're what I am? You're not what I am?

683
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 4: And those are getting long because he shows now these

684
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 4: are like ten EPs, but two of those people worked. Yeah,

685
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: everyone else was just attached to those people. Bled why

686
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: in in Well, I guess in all all productions. So

687
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 4: it's not specific a documentary, but like fighting for those

688
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 4: like the producer credit, Like that's what people that's what

689
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: people want. If you want to be like Oscar eligible,

690
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 4: you need that producer credit.

691
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: Oh got it? Really?

692
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 4: Yeah?

693
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: God man, I know that.

694
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 4: Right, some epis, you know, some EPs will have it,

695
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 4: but producers that's where it's at.

696
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: Oh so executive is like a downgrade. You just want

697
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: to be regular producers.

698
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you want to be on that. You want to

699
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 4: be the the producer. It's usually a one producer.

700
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: Because I was just saying, it's probably not too late

701
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: for me to angle for EP on the new show,

702
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: but it is too late for the producer, and that's the.

703
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: One you want. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, this to lady the way, Randall,

704
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 2: I do have a checkbook. When we started, when we

705
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 2: started on Hunting History, when Moe came in, we hadn't

706
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: we didn't have our subjects.

707
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 4: We had a few of them. They had done development

708
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: work you know, leading up to that, and uh and

709
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 4: it developed some good concepts. Yeah, so like we ran

710
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 4: with a bunch of those. Yeah, we certainly weren't going

711
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 4: to throw those out.

712
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: Let's do it? Should we should? We should we lay

713
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: out the mysteries like well, let me first lay out

714
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: the kind of overriding premises. So so on hunting history

715
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: we explore eight uh outdoor wilderness mysteries. I'll tell you

716
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: some things that I would say are true of all

717
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,959
Speaker 2: of them. Okay, they could be that there, they could

718
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 2: be they could be mysteries that are forty or fifty

719
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: years old. Some of them. They could be mysteries that

720
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: are over three hundred years old. Yeah, so that there.

721
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 4: Are many thousands of years old or or millennia.

722
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. They could be vastly different timeframes, but

723
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: they share in common that these are mysteries that are

724
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: set in wilderness, backwoods environments like some of the wildest,

725
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 2: most beautiful landscapes in the country. They are things that

726
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: people will have I'll be following all these riddles or

727
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: these clues. There are things that most Americans will have

728
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: some little thing in the back of their head that goes, oh,

729
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: I've heard of that. Yeah right, there's like a oh yeah,

730
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: I heard of that. They're all things that are still

731
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: being actively argued about.

732
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 4: Yep.

733
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: Oddly, and this surprised me. They're all things that have obsessives. Yeah, yeah,

734
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: they all have living obsessives who have dedicated their life

735
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: or major portions of their life to push a theory,

736
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: and there are usually other obsessives with a different theory.

737
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, And are constantly new theories.

738
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, constantly new theories, constantly new theories coming up.

739
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: And so we found those. And to give you what

740
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: we're getting into some of these, but to give you

741
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: a sense of the range would be some of the

742
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 2: mysteries are like some of the mysteries are just definitionally

743
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: a mystery. Meaning in the nineteen seventies we had this

744
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: kind of blows your mind to think this is true.

745
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: In the nineteen seventies, we had a rash of global

746
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: and also national skyjackings. It seems so hard to picture

747
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: now in a post nine to eleven world, but there

748
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: was a legitimate problem with people hijacking airplanes globally and nationally,

749
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: hijack an airplane, get ransom money, try to get away

750
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: with the ransom money.

751
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 4: For either economic gain or political.

752
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Became some currific ideological yes, it became some political

753
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 2: political hijackings, you know, the famous t w A hijacking.

754
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: And then there also been just like some lone wolf

755
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: financial hijackings just for personal financial gain. Only one of

756
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: these skyjackings, as they call him. Only one of these

757
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: skyjackings remains unsolved, and it is the story of a

758
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: guy that identified himself as Dan Cooper. In the early

759
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 2: days of the investigation, a journalist misheard a communication between

760
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 2: some investigators misheard dB Cooper ran an article using dB

761
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 2: Cooper as a suspect name. It was misheard dB Cooper

762
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: did not use dB Cooper used Dan Cooper. He's on

763
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: a plane that takes off out of Portland to Seattle.

764
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: But what do you buy his ticket for?

765
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 4: It's like twenty bucks.

766
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: It's so funny. Yeah, buys a ticket, gets on it

767
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: with walks in. Buys a ticket for twenty bucks, gets

768
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: on the plane. He's dressed in a suit. He's wearing loafers.

769
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 2: He hands a flight attendant a note that he's got

770
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: a bomb. He opens up a suitcase. It's got a

771
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: bunch of wires and shit looks like a bomb. Demands

772
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: a couple hundred thousand dollars in twenties. The plane lands

773
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: at sea tack. He lets all the passengers go, He

774
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: lets he keeps some hostages on the plane. Flight crew

775
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: lets a flight attendant go. She comes back with a

776
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 2: big sack full of all his twenties. I can't remember

777
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: we calculated how many pounds of twenties. It was not

778
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 2: as much as you'd think.

779
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 4: No, I'm trying to remember, like twenty two pounds or something.

780
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 3: Shocking.

781
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: Ask for four parachutes. This is like some key stuff here.

782
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: Ask for multiple parachutes, creating the idea that he's going

783
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: to jump with the flight crew. Yeah, because if he says,

784
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: give me.

785
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 4: One shoot, like sweet.

786
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: Give him yeah, yeah, why are you going to cut

787
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: every rope in there? Then give him the shoot? Ask

788
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: for four shoots. They they take off out of They

789
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: take off out of seattack. He wants to go.

790
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 4: Mexico City.

791
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he wants to go to Mexico City. They argue

792
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: with him that you can't. There's not enough fuel on

793
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: the plane. They debate. So this all this is important

794
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: detail because he he's taken off out of sea attack

795
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: and he already knows what he's gonna do. He knows

796
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: he's gonna jump out of the plane, and he has

797
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: a destination in mind. They're already taken off and they're

798
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: arguing about you can't do that. They suggest they suggest

799
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: like landing in the Bay Area or something. They suggest

800
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: going to San Francisco. He's like, it's too busy. He's like,

801
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: let's go to Reno and refuel. So now time has

802
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: gone by, he's in the air. He wants to go

803
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 2: one place. They changed their mind. They're going in another direction.

804
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: Point being there's like people argue this that he had

805
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 2: like he knew what was up and had an accomplished

806
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: waiting the dude. This is one thing I'm sure about

807
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: this dude does not know. No, no rational person can

808
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 2: argue that he knew where he was when he jumped

809
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 2: out of that plane. It was the kind of plane

810
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: that had the back door that opens up. Yeah.

811
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 4: I mean, even if you do where you were, even

812
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: if you had known what route you were on, you

813
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 4: wouldn't know where you were.

814
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: Cloudy night, a storm, No, there's a storm, overcast, heavily overcast,

815
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: gys raining, and he's jumping out. At where he's jumping out,

816
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: it's like negative zero seven degree. We we said negative

817
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 2: seven I think is the number we came negative at

818
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: the elevation he's at and he's got suit on.

819
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 4: Loafers going two hundred miles an hour. Yeah, negative seven.

820
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: There's a really funny part of this where so the

821
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: put all on the hole from excited explaining a funny

822
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: part of this. When we're filming it, we're in the

823
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: town of We're in this area of the FBI's drop zone,

824
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: and we're we just are going to eat in this

825
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: town at Cougar, Washington, just going does we just like

826
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: made plans to going to Cougar to eat And we're

827
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: sitting there and we're like, we're kind of outside the

828
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 2: trucks and some guys got some cameras and here comes

829
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: a dude driving buying a bike. Is then listen, here

830
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: comes a guy driving buying a bike and it's just

831
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 2: killing them. He sees the cameras and it's killing them,

832
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: you know, and he's like he drives and you can

833
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: see him change his mind. And he comes back and

834
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 2: he's got some shorts on and he's got a shirt,

835
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: a heavy like a big shirt on, but suspenders under

836
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: his shirt, like suspenders under his T shirt. And I said, he'said,

837
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: what are you guys doing? You know dB Cooper, you know,

838
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 2: he gets all fired up about Dbie Cooper And I said,

839
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: what do you have? Why you got your suspenders on it?

840
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: Under your shirt, and he tells me that holds up

841
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: my pistols. To give you a sense of how much

842
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: like this story lives, right, we didn't get an interview

843
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: with this guy, but to give you a sense how

844
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: much the story lives, this individual races home. This is

845
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 2: just a guy on the street, races home on his

846
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: bike and comes back with like evidence okay about who DV.

847
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: Cooper is. It introduces us to a thing that totally

848
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: mess with our heads because in all of our research,

849
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: I was just talking about what he had on. Right,

850
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: he's got on a jack, he's got loafers, okay, And

851
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: all our research we never see any mention to this.

852
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: But he's describing he's describing one of the last known

853
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: moves of dB Cooper, which was to slip a packet

854
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: of twenties into his wetsuit. So we get done talking

855
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: to him, we're like, the wetsuit. W how did we

856
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: miss the wet suit? But then we went and reviewed

857
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 2: there's no that man. As far as I know, that man,

858
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: and only that man knows about that the Cooper was

859
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: wearing a wet suit.

860
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 4: But I mean, but that's what's so cool about the

861
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 4: story and the reason that the story is so enduring

862
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 4: is it invites all of this you know, you're you're

863
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 4: left with so few clues that paints such a vivid

864
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 4: picture of what this guy did that it's open to

865
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 4: all this interpretation. As we talk about in the show,

866
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 4: it's like a it's a perfect story, and like what

867
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 4: a fun thing to be able to just like dive

868
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 4: into a perfect story and just let your imagination goes.

869
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: He had a wet suit on. He was jumping in

870
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 4: the lake. Manna.

871
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: Look like idiots, We never talked about a wet suit.

872
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: Scratch the wet suit. That's just a dude down the streets.

873
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: That's the dude down the street wearing shorts with pistols

874
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 2: hanging from his suspenders. So, uh, Cooper goes on the back.

875
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: There's always a little details. He lights he uh, here's

876
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: a crazy part. Smokes a cigarette. Yeah, smokes a couple

877
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: of cigarettes. Put him in the ash tree. You know

878
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: how even today you'll see planes and still have that

879
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 2: little ash tray. Put some cigarettes in the ash tray.

880
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 2: He was one of the biggest screw ups the FBI

881
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: ever made in not being able to anticipate and not

882
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: being able to anticipate that you would pull DNA off

883
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: the cigarettes, which would now be a blink of an

884
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: eye process, Like the FBI lab would have the genetic

885
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: profile of this person within minutes. They check them out, Yah,

886
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: burn them. Do you believe this? No, Like you're like

887
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 2: an archaeology. It's very common in archaeology, Like if you're

888
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: out of sight, you dig a little square, you'll dig

889
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: a meter square, and then the rest of it you

890
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: don't touch because you're like, I don't know. In one

891
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: hundred years, they'll be able to dip a stick in

892
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 2: that dirt and tell you what happened here, So let's

893
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: not mess with the rest because technology improved. But no,

894
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, what are you gonna do? These old

895
00:48:53,920 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: cigarettes gone gone. At some point he takes apart one

896
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: of the four parachutes and gets some cord out of

897
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: it shit and fashions himself a little bundle of money

898
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: and lowers that back door down and spends some amount

899
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: of time messing around on the back.

900
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, we should, we should specify that it's it's at

901
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 4: a time when some planes had the the staircase that

902
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 4: lowers from the tail of the plane, So we're not

903
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 4: talking about the side door at the back of a plane.

904
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 4: We're talking about a staircase that lowers directly off the

905
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 4: tail of the fuselage.

906
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: Yepp. He he expects the flight attendant to open the door,

907
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: realizes that the flight attendant is not instructed on opening

908
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: door and in flight can't open the door, and sends

909
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 2: the flight attendant up front. So now he's in the

910
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: back of the plane. This is this is key to

911
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,479
Speaker 2: He's in back of the plane by himself. He gets

912
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 2: the door down and at some point climbs down, puts

913
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 2: on a parachute, and climbs down the steps. How the

914
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: FBI would later determine what they would call their drop

915
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: zone is based on like trajectory, flight time and all this.

916
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: But one of the key pieces is the pilots feel

917
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 2: a pressure change in the cabin, suggesting to them that

918
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 2: that pressure change was that he's putting weight on the

919
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: back step. Yeah, and when he jumped the backstep the

920
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 2: door goes fo Yeah. Just a few folks listening at home.

921
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: I just took my hand and inflected it at the wrist.

922
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: I did like a little wrist flick. That was the

923
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: door coming up. And so they go like, huh, maybe

924
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: that was him jumping out. Let's take note of where

925
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 2: we're at. That's the FBI drop zone. I'm not kidding.

926
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: That's the FBI drop zone somewhere between the Sea Tac

927
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: and Reno, but like sometime around there. Because eventually they

928
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: get like, well, shit, let's go look. Yeah no, no,

929
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: they didn't. They not look till they landed or did

930
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 2: they go look.

931
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 4: They did not get a They did not get resources

932
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 4: out in the field to look.

933
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 2: No, no, when did the flight crew go to look

934
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 2: to see that he was actually a long time? Yeah?

935
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, because well, I mean you can kind of offend that.

936
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 4: Guys know the guy's got a bomb. Man.

937
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, every go up front, go up for No,

938
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 2: I'm not blaming anybody, but they're saying that became this

939
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: hotly contested FBI drop zone. Earlier were talking about everybody's

940
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: got like a little bit of awareness of the story.

941
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: I know, I knew the story. I didn't know any

942
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: of the detail. I knew there was a skyjacker, and

943
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 2: I knew jumped out of the plane, and and and

944
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 2: when we got into it, and Mo and I are

945
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: like talking, and other guys we work with are all talking.

946
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: I would often say on the calls, I'll tell you

947
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 2: what happened. You know, have not been there, yea, and

948
00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: knowing nothing about it. I was like he he burrowed

949
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: into the ground, didn't know what he was doing, had

950
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: a bad shoot, whatever. And the reason he's never because

951
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 2: we should jump to this. He's never turned up.

952
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 4: Nothing has ever turned up, well, well except yeah, one thing.

953
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: Some money turned up. We'll get to that in the minux.

954
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 2: We went, we went to the site. Some money turned

955
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 2: up into Columbia River.

956
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 4: In the eighties, nothing of his body, parachute or anything

957
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 4: like that.

958
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: And people thought that, you know, one investigator said, well,

959
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: come deer season, we'll find him, because he thought something,

960
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 2: you know, like some guy's gonna be like, oh my god,

961
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: a parachute hanging in a tree with the dead guy

962
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: from it, and it would be over right. That was

963
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: the assumption early on. It's like, he's just dead somewhere

964
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: and they'll find the shoot. They never did. And I

965
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: would have thought, well, his shoot never opened, you know,

966
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: and and he burrowed into the ground, and and you

967
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: know all that soft rainforest moss, and you're hitting at

968
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy miles an hour or something like that.

969
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 2: Terminal boity. Yeah, somewhere and right and unless someone looks

970
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 2: in the right little divot and that's where the money is,

971
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: that's where his body is. And we kind of begin

972
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: our exploration with that idea and then quickly have special

973
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: forces guys, military parachuters, a parachute instructor with like fourteen

974
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: thousand jumps in his history who was actually interviewed by

975
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: the FBI after the dB Cooper thing. Them all say no,

976
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: he's probably fine. Yeah, no reason to think he's not fine.

977
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: Like in their mind, it's like, no, no landing, the

978
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: trees don't matter, land in the mountains don't matter.

979
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a parachute. They're like designed to work.

980
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like no. I was like, what if you

981
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: hit a treat it doesn't matter. Yeah. We couldn't get

982
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 2: any major parachute dudes to tell us that he was dead,

983
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 2: as much as I wanted to community, but they're like,

984
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: the shoots work, you pull the cord, you're landing.

985
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 4: And I think the other interesting thing is like we

986
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 4: had like an opportunity to get you in the air

987
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 4: and get you like, you know, doing a tandem jump,

988
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 4: and your immediate reaction on the ground went from like

989
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 4: before we went up on the plane, like he's he's

990
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 4: burrowed into the ground, to like, I know, he's he

991
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 4: could of course he could survive that.

992
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 3: Now you're part of the community.

993
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 4: And I think, and that's what's so fun about the

994
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 4: show is like you you you get to unfold these

995
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 4: mysteries and kind of pressure test one variation or one

996
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 4: possibility or one theory at a time, and over the

997
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 4: course of it you come out with a completely different

998
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 4: understanding or a completely different viewpoint on it. None of

999
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 4: it based on empirical evidence, all based on experiential evidence.

1000
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 4: And I think that's what's what you know, That's the

1001
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 4: reason that like, as a concept, I think this show

1002
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 4: is so cool is that you were out there experiencing

1003
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 4: things and then making you know, assessments of a mystery

1004
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 4: based on those experiences.

1005
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,479
Speaker 2: And if and if he lived and I think he did,

1006
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: if he survived the jump, think about how you think

1007
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 2: he did. Yeah, well, now I think you did, right, Yeah,

1008
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 2: But then but then just like invite yourself to think

1009
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 2: about this for a minute, that you're somewhere south of Seattle,

1010
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: you're not quite sure where, and you've jumped in the

1011
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 2: dark and keep in mind he never got caught. You're

1012
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 2: landing in the dark, and not toward dawn, You're landing

1013
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 2: in the dark in the evening. Yeah, it's a lot

1014
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 2: in your loafers, not rigged up in the rain. Yeah.

1015
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: What then there's talk of accomplices, and maybe there were,

1016
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: but like not to that point. But there's there's no way.

1017
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 2: There's no way you could have coordinate it with someone

1018
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 2: on the ground.

1019
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 4: Now, he'd need to get to a payphone at that

1020
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 4: time and make a call and say, well, I think

1021
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 4: I'm just somewhere out in the Cascade range, you know.

1022
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 2: And you're walking around and as far as you know,

1023
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: there was this kind of laughable delay in looking for

1024
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 2: him on the ground.

1025
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 4: It's because it was partly because it was Thanksgiving night. Yeah,

1026
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 4: everyone had to finish there. Yeah, they had to finish

1027
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 4: their dressing and pumpkin pie and ship and they got

1028
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 4: the posse rounded up. He didn't know this that, he

1029
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 4: doesn't know this. No, so no, like in all this

1030
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 4: time since and they did. They brought out the army.

1031
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: I mean the army to do shoulder to shoulder was

1032
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: like five foot spacing, I think Fingertip Fingertip spacing shoulder

1033
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 2: to shoulder, and they they spent months grid working everything.

1034
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: No parachute, no sack, nothing, nothing.

1035
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 4: So oh man, they were doing fly over is in

1036
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 4: was it the SR seventeen or the.

1037
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: Seventy one seventy one?

1038
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 2: You know blackbird? Yeah, they brought that up.

1039
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, use that to try to find the shoot big

1040
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 3: reconnaissance aviation guy here, like, I got it right, my.

1041
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 4: Favorite bat too.

1042
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 2: They nothing. Ever, we'll get to this money. Then we'll

1043
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 2: kind of move one hundred another one of these, just

1044
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 2: to give people example. We'll get to this money. So

1045
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: here's the crazy, weird part. And this is what really

1046
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 2: like the money. If the money hadn't happened, the story'd

1047
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: be different. But the money up ends everything. Yeah, in

1048
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: the eighties, right near Phil's backyard, Phil Phil Phillison on this.

1049
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 5: That's right Vancouver, Washington, on the shores of western Vancouver,

1050
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 5: I believe.

1051
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: Do you know the name of the bar.

1052
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 5: I don't know the name of the bar, so, yeah,

1053
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 5: I can't fill you in. Sorry. It's an Algonquin word

1054
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 5: meaning marshy swamp, Tina bar, Tina bar.

1055
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: So.

1056
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 3: The original the the Skyjacking was in seventy two seventy three,

1057
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 3: seventy two.

1058
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: I was not yet born. I wasn't even conceived yet, Randall,

1059
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 2: where was I? Oh the money? So check this out?

1060
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 2: Eighty one? Was it a somewhere eight nineteen eighty one?

1061
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: Somewhere early eighties? Some kid, Now this is that this

1062
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 2: is the surface I'm telling you the surface level true part.

1063
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: And you can read in all the conspiracy theories the

1064
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 2: surface level true part. Okay, everyone agrees is this. Some

1065
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: kid goes down on the Columbia River and they're going

1066
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: to make a fire, and he's scratching out with his foot. Yeah,

1067
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 2: a little fire pit, Okay, on the bank of the river,

1068
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 2: just like you would. And lo and behold, here is

1069
00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 2: a bundle bundles, bundles, bundles of rotten twenties. When they

1070
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: gave Cooper all of his currency, when they gave his

1071
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 2: ransom money, I knew they knew the serial numbers. Okay,

1072
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: here's a whole other wrinkle. I'm gonna get into this wrinkles.

1073
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 2: This is interesting wrinkle I knew going as we did

1074
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: our research. It was like they knew the serial numbers

1075
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 2: of the money. I thought they were sequential, meaning I

1076
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: thought they gave him blank to blank numbers, which would

1077
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: make it easier.

1078
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 3: To find sell a list of serial number, but.

1079
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 2: It was all random numbers, so you couldn't notify banks.

1080
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: If you see any money come in between one one

1081
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 2: zero zero zero zero and one one zero, they keep

1082
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: your eye out for it. It's like thousands of twenty

1083
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: thousand random ass serial numbers, so you could never get

1084
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 2: in your head what numbers you're looking for. Because I

1085
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 2: used to be like, the money never turned up, so

1086
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 2: the money must be gone. But someone' say, how do

1087
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,439
Speaker 2: you know the money's gone? If he took have money

1088
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 2: and spent it wherever the hell. Yeah, took it to

1089
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 2: the Caribbean, took it to Mexico, took it anywhere, took

1090
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: to grease whatever and exchange the money. And then the

1091
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 2: fact that someone down the road is gonna check that

1092
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: serial number against the list of twenty thousand random ass

1093
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 2: serial numbers and find it. But anyhow, the money that

1094
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: comes out of team to borrow the corners is all

1095
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: rotten away. But it's the numbers.

1096
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 4: They know for a fact that that is the money.

1097
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 4: It's the money from the ransom.

1098
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: But here's the deal, Like the crazy part of it

1099
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 2: is that you'd say to yourself. If you're thinking, man,

1100
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 2: you're now saying to yourself, well, yeah, he lost some

1101
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 2: of the money. He's drowned in a river and it flowed.

1102
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: It was in a little creek, float out of the mountains,

1103
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 2: float into a tributary, float into the Columbia on a flood.

1104
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 2: You got deposited on the bank. Covered in sentiment. But

1105
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: here's the problem the money. If you drained the FBI

1106
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 2: drop zone, it doesn't flow to that spot.

1107
01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,040
Speaker 4: It's up river. That spot it's up.

1108
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 2: The money was found up drainage from the entire FBI

1109
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: drop zone, which brings in the question it didn't get

1110
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 2: like he didn't. It's either he didn't land in his

1111
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 2: drop zone, the drop zones wrong, or someone and here

1112
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: he did enter all conspiracy idea.

1113
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 4: So the next logical conclusion you say, well, the drop

1114
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 4: zones are on again. He landed in some tributary, whatever

1115
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 4: it washed down, got caught in a sandbar. That's totally

1116
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,479
Speaker 4: reasonable to assume. Here's why the money being in three

1117
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 4: different packets is important because they were not bundled together,

1118
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 4: meaning the statistical probability of the three of them ending

1119
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 4: up in one level in the billions.

1120
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 2: Unless something was holding them in it. He okay, this

1121
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 2: is what's claimed. He there's a couple of little details here,

1122
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: he uh says to a flight attendant. The flight attendant,

1123
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: he asked her, do you want some of this money? Okay?

1124
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: She says no. Did some amount of that money, like

1125
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: we don't know what happened for a long period of time.

1126
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 2: Did some of that amount of that money wind up

1127
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 2: Like he's got like a bag, but he puts not

1128
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 2: in his wetsuit. But like some of it goes here,

1129
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 2: some of it's in a different envelope, some of it

1130
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: some you know, like it sat there so long and

1131
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 2: rotted so much, something could have decomposed around it. What

1132
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 2: was holding it together. But but people that are way

1133
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 2: obsessed about this have given up on the idea that

1134
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 2: it washed there. Yeah, they think the money was buried there.

1135
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 2: And what's so funny. We went there with a guy

1136
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 2: who's like he actually had some of the money, like

1137
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 2: some of the money that came out of the bank.

1138
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1139
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: Hm. He wrote his name though, Eric Eric Ericulis.

1140
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like he's like the foremost you know, kind

1141
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 4: of citizen sleuth. What they what they refer to themselves

1142
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 4: as citizens. Salu, he's a serious and best investigator.

1143
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 2: We go there, we're standing around the river bank and

1144
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, so it's right here, and he goes, well,

1145
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 2: it was about nine feet up feet out because of erosion.

1146
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 2: It was like the money was like over your head

1147
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 2: when you're standing there. Now, he feels that that money,

1148
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 2: because of all this stuff I won't get into, he

1149
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 2: feels that money was buried. He feels it was buried

1150
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 2: by D. B. Cooper. Conspiracy theories are that dB Cooper

1151
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 2: later placed the money to throw off the trail, that

1152
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: he uh lift, got a ride from someone like dude,

1153
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 2: get me out of here, and that guy freaked and

1154
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 2: buried the money. No, no, but that is the last There's

1155
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 2: a neck tie that he took off and left on

1156
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 2: the plane. There's this cigarettes that are gone. There's the

1157
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: money in Tina Bar. And they've investigated, I don't know,

1158
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: some ten thousand people. Yeah, they really focus heavy on

1159
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 2: disgruntled special forces guys coming out of Vietnam.

1160
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and people with an engineering background or some

1161
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 4: exposure to Boeing or people who would have proximity to

1162
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 4: understanding how the plane works in a basic way. And

1163
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 4: you know, it's fascinating there there are there are thousands

1164
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 4: of these little micro theories of how little portions of

1165
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 4: the mystery. And the fact is like no one actually

1166
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 4: knows anything nothing.

1167
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 2: The flight attendant asked him. According to her, there's no

1168
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: witnesses of the conversation. She asked them, do you have

1169
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 2: a grudge against the airline? And he said, I just

1170
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,959
Speaker 2: have a grudge, But I mean, those are the things

1171
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 2: like and this is an important part of this, of

1172
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 2: the the whole story is he's like he's become he

1173
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: became like a folk here.

1174
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 4: You know, he didn't didn't hurt anyone, you know, in

1175
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 4: in in in our imaginations, he gets away with two

1176
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars, you know, and uh and disappears into

1177
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 4: the night. It's awesome. He's a he's a hero. He's

1178
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 4: yeah yeah, uh.

1179
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: If you watch the news, there's always claims. There's been many,

1180
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 2: many claims. There's a theme people's parents die. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah,

1181
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 2: people's parents die, and then they come forward to say it.

1182
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: And recently some people came out and there there's there's

1183
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 2: these kids whose dad actually did a there's these kids

1184
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 2: whose dad actually did a copycat skyjacking and then later

1185
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 2: died in a shootout with the cops, and a lot

1186
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 2: of suspicion fell that it was it was his own

1187
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 2: copy cat, like that was his second skyjacking. Some people

1188
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: say they these kids come out and they produce this

1189
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 2: this parachute all the way in North Carolina or something

1190
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 2: across the country.

1191
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 4: Across country.

1192
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: They're like, hey, we found a parachute in our shed.

1193
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 2: Then you got to ask you a question. But there's

1194
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 2: so many claims like this, they mostly get debunked. Yeah,

1195
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: I asked your question. So you're telling me that he

1196
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 2: that night brought his parachute. He that night bundled that

1197
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 2: parachute up no way, and then brought it home to

1198
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 2: North Carolina and put it in his shed.

1199
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 4: I use this again, no no way.

1200
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:27,959
Speaker 2: I like that one.

1201
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 3: Rubbed that fabric between your fingers and thinking a good

1202
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 3: old day.

1203
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 2: It was like so many of my friends sent me

1204
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 2: that article when that came out, because I was just

1205
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 2: that was after we after we filmed, they sent me

1206
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 2: that article. And then by that point I was like

1207
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,919
Speaker 2: well versed in all the claims, just like there's there's

1208
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: a claim more than every year does a claim Yeah,

1209
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 2: my boyfriend was Dbie Cooper.

1210
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of deathbed confessionals. You know, you like

1211
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 4: to add grandpa was Cooper. We should make a buffer sticker, man,

1212
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 4: it you think about that. With the parachute, we tried

1213
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 4: to walk through, Like one of the things we do

1214
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 4: in the show is like we walked through in the

1215
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 4: Pitch Black. We walked through those mountains and it's staggering

1216
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 4: how difficult it is to walk through those mountains. I

1217
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 4: mean we're talking about like the Cascades. The best best

1218
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: guess of the drop zone is that it's in the

1219
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 4: Cascades just west, like southwest of Mount Saint Helen's right

1220
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 4: prior to Mount Saint Helens erupting, So it's like thick

1221
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 4: old growth forest and really steep and uh and just

1222
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 4: trying to walk through there in the dark with came

1223
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 4: it was impossible. You're gonna drag a You're gonna drag

1224
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 4: a parachute.

1225
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 2: We did a we did a thing like we know

1226
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 2: you don't really know what you have, but we did

1227
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 2: like a no, we did a no flashlight because yeah,

1228
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 2: just limited stuff. Like he's not like he's got big

1229
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 2: he doesn't have a big tool bag. Maybe yeah, flash,

1230
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 2: it's on. No. But one thing I never did in

1231
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 2: my whole life was strike a match to look around.

1232
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't work as good. Ear. We're talking about Indiana Jones.

1233
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: He goes into a cave and strikes a matches like

1234
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 2: a spot light.

1235
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 4: It's not like all of a sudden you're in the

1236
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 4: Lincoln Tunnel.

1237
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you strike that match and you're like, you don't

1238
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 2: see much of anything. Man, it was fun. Okay, I

1239
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 2: want to let's talk about Donner Party. Yeah, that's a

1240
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: good one. I want we just talked about Rowing Oak

1241
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 2: and Donner Party. There's one hundred, one hundreds eight to

1242
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 2: talk about. Where them. I want to talk about Rowing

1243
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 2: Oak or Donner Party.

1244
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 4: That'll start with Rono.

1245
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll lay the groundwork. You should quiz Randall on

1246
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 2: on rowing Oak.

1247
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you know about Rono? Yeah?

1248
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 2: Randall? How many? How many settlers? Oh, doctor Randall?

1249
01:08:53,400 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 3: Thirty one seventy two fifty four, one hundred and thirty nine.

1250
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 3: You just went too high twenty four.

1251
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,600
Speaker 2: I won't. No, I'm not going to continue to humiliate you.

1252
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,800
Speaker 2: One hundred and seventeen. Gotta do it rough.

1253
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 3: I had it in there somewhere rough one hundred seventeen promise.

1254
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 2: We're gonna go way back in time. We're jumping out

1255
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 2: from the from the nineteen seventies to the fifteen nineties.

1256
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 2: All these all your European superpowers, Spain, France, England, Portugal,

1257
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 2: they're all vying for colonies New World colonies. The Spanish

1258
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 2: were earlier to the game, and they are getting loaded

1259
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 2: on gold and everybody's like, but down south, everybody's got

1260
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 2: bad fomo. Everybody's got bad fomo. They want their own

1261
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 2: chunk of the pie.

1262
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 4: Well, Portuguese are killing it in South America too.

1263
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so people are tearing it up, and the English

1264
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 2: are feeling like they're missing the whole party, and they

1265
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 2: they don't want to go too far south because the

1266
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: Spanish at at this point have a major toll hold

1267
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 2: and like jealously guard their areas. In fact, the Spanish

1268
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 2: are so worried about other countries getting a toe hold

1269
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 2: did They got like warships cruising up and down the

1270
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 2: US coast hunting for anyone who'd have the audacity to

1271
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: try to get a toe hold in the New World.

1272
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 2: England had sent some like expeditionary trips poking around and

1273
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 2: prodding around, they map parts of the shoreline and they

1274
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 2: get an idea that they're going to establish their first

1275
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 2: permanent colony in Chesapeake Bay. So they take these one

1276
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 2: hundred and seventeen settlers, kids, wives, young people, right, and

1277
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 2: they haul them over and the intention is to bring

1278
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 2: them up into Chesapeake Bay. There's like some weird stuff

1279
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 2: that we get into in the episode. And and they

1280
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: don't bring them where they're supposed to bring them. They're

1281
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 2: just like kind of like just them. It sounds like

1282
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 2: a little like unceremonious because it was. I mean, they

1283
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 2: dump them out on an eye island in the outer

1284
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: North Carolina. This will have to do see you later,

1285
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 2: Like it won't work forever, but it might work for

1286
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 2: a minute.

1287
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 3: We'll see you next year.

1288
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:10,719
Speaker 2: But it wasn't.

1289
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 4: But it's also important to note who these people are

1290
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 4: because like they're not this is not a military expedition.

1291
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,080
Speaker 4: These are like these are like farmers and craftsmen. They're

1292
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 4: not people who are who are equipped or used to

1293
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 4: going out and and.

1294
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 2: No experience building an.

1295
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 4: Outpost from a military standpoint.

1296
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are people who buy and large have probably

1297
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 2: spent their life and within like some small radius of

1298
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 2: a handful of miles. Probably you can't generalize, but like

1299
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,760
Speaker 2: mostly these are like yeomen people. They drop them on

1300
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,679
Speaker 2: this island. And then their leader as this dude, John White, Well,

1301
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 2: they realize how precarious their situation is. And he can't

1302
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 2: even hang for long. And he's like, hey, I'm going

1303
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 2: to run back to England and get some supplies and

1304
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 2: I'm gonna run back hang to He goes back to

1305
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 2: England and like a war breaks out and the queen says,

1306
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 2: no one's doing ship with any ships. All ships are

1307
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 2: fighting the war and all this other stuff happens, and

1308
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 2: it's three years and keep mind this is John White, dude.

1309
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 2: Here's an important detail. This John White dude. His wife

1310
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,679
Speaker 2: and daughter are there. No, no, no, his daughter and got

1311
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 2: his daughter's pregnant is there? Comes back three years later,

1312
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 2: is they able to do a quick check on Roanoke?

1313
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 2: And they're not there? They're gone. But then there's a

1314
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 2: hurricane coming and he can't he can't even really look around.

1315
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 2: But as the story goes, carved down a tree. They

1316
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: made a plan. Hey, if you got to go somewhere,

1317
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: carve on a tree crow it where you're going. And

1318
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 2: they and they carve the word crow a tone, which

1319
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 2: was a tribe that lived on modern day Hatteras Island.

1320
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 2: A hurricane comes, he leaves, and then no one comes

1321
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 2: back for a decade or something like that. A decade.

1322
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 2: By the time someone comes in seriously looks for these colonists,

1323
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,879
Speaker 2: it is just like they are.

1324
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely gone but gone gone, Like there's just rumors. It's

1325
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 4: not like there's a bunch of bones. No, yeah, there's nothing.

1326
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 2: Gone gone, just rumors. And it's so long has gone

1327
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 2: by that now there's like, oh, you know, it's like

1328
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 2: it's this common thing that pops up in history. I'm

1329
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: sure you even countered at rantal Oh. I did see

1330
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:33,520
Speaker 2: a blue eyed Indian right suggesting that they like integrated

1331
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 2: but just gone but there. But people are actively looking

1332
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 2: for their stuff. And what's funny about it is like,

1333
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 2: of course, their stuff's get scattered around, because even if

1334
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 2: they had all died right there of some disease, if

1335
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 2: they'd all died of the flu, their shit's still going

1336
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,839
Speaker 2: to get scattered around because this is like a vibrant

1337
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 2: this area is full of all these different Native American groups.

1338
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 2: So they're going to take the stuff and scatter anyway.

1339
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 4: And they show up, The English show up with stuff

1340
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 4: that is like highly highly, highly valuable because there's no

1341
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:12,680
Speaker 4: way for Native Americans who are here to get you

1342
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 4: know that iron. You know these things that they had guns,

1343
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 4: so you think like it's not just like a bunch

1344
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 4: of random crap lying around. These are like highly valuable.

1345
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 2: Items, stuff that people want. So the search has been

1346
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 2: by and large, the search is archaeologists looking for their

1347
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 2: little trinkets and shit, right, but finding a trinket and

1348
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:37,639
Speaker 2: we went to it. We went to an active dig

1349
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 2: site where they're finding like really old English stuff. But

1350
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 2: it's like they get excited about it, but it doesn't

1351
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 2: mean that in my mind, doesn't mean it much because

1352
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 2: their shit's gona wind up there anyways, because people are

1353
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 2: going to take this stuff and trade it. We talked

1354
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 2: to one researcher on it and he's like this, We're like,

1355
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,920
Speaker 2: what would satisfy what would sad by you about what

1356
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 2: happened to someone? And he said it's cool because it's

1357
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 2: like identifiable. He's like a Christian burial, a Christian burial

1358
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 2: not on Roanoke m someone because all the tribes had

1359
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 2: burial rituals where the bodies would be buried in a

1360
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 2: curled up and fetal positions, you know, very different ways.

1361
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: He goes to find a because he's like, they might

1362
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 2: have you know, they might have been integrated into a tribe.

1363
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 2: The last thing to go would be religious practice. Yeah,

1364
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 2: you know in his mind, the last thing to go

1365
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:45,719
Speaker 2: would be burial rights and a mother bearing her child,

1366
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 2: a child bearing its mother or someone would would would

1367
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 2: have laid them out on their back, flat prone head

1368
01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: to the east.

1369
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, a Christian style burial done by Christians is what

1370
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 4: they're looking for.

1371
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 2: And he's like, if someone can present that, they can

1372
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 2: say here's where here's where they ended up.

1373
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 4: Uh.

1374
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 2: A detail about that we get into is to kind

1375
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 2: of show you what's gonna happen to these people when

1376
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 2: they land. It's within days. One of them goes out

1377
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 2: to get oysters. They got they got like nothing. They

1378
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 2: got their heart up from the minute they're there. They

1379
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 2: got very little food resources. Crabs, right, he goes crab,

1380
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 2: he goes blue crabbing. It just gets filled full of arrows.

1381
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 4: His head smashed.

1382
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:37,680
Speaker 2: Now because the dudes that were there before him, the

1383
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,880
Speaker 2: English explorers that were there before him, do all this

1384
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 2: ham handed antagonistic ship to the tribes and piss off

1385
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 2: a bunch of the tribes, and then you later bring

1386
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 2: a bunch of women and children and turn them out

1387
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 2: on an eye.

1388
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 4: Let him go.

1389
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 2: You see anybody, uh, I don't know, don't mention me.

1390
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 3: And there aren't any like oral true from those communities

1391
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 3: around there.

1392
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 2: About the strangers, I'm kind of shocked by how it's

1393
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 2: kind of shocking how how little there is, how little

1394
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 2: there is there.

1395
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 4: Again, there are those rumors of like you know, blue eyed.

1396
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:23,759
Speaker 2: Right, square houses too, tribes like like traders would encounter

1397
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 2: people and they'd be like but in wild places, you know,

1398
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 2: they'd be like hundreds of miles inland, there's there's people

1399
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:33,759
Speaker 2: in square houses living with such and such a true

1400
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 2: and to have a square house. But it's just just

1401
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 2: like it's ephemeral. It's like rumors and glimpses as we

1402
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 2: dug into it. Like I'll tell you one of things

1403
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: for certain, and I can't say much of certain. One

1404
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 2: hundred and seventeen of those guys didn't go somewhere and

1405
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,879
Speaker 2: like set up shop and build houses.

1406
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,759
Speaker 4: That was too much of an imprint.

1407
01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:00,479
Speaker 2: It was whatever happened was like quick. It was ugly,

1408
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 2: and I think it was scattered.

1409
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 4: They panicked and scattered to the wind.

1410
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 2: And I'm sure some of them because they did write

1411
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 2: on a tree. They wrote on a tree and on

1412
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 2: a fence post, crow atin and then kro on one signe.

1413
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 2: They finished it on one sign. One sign did and

1414
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:17,760
Speaker 2: now was the agreement. If you go somewhere write it down.

1415
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 2: But then like did they make it? How many of

1416
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 2: them made it? How many went to crow at five? Right? Yeah,

1417
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 2: you don't know. And then there's been fraudulent evidence, like, uh,

1418
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 2: there's this thing that came out called the Dare Stone.

1419
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 2: This woman Elizabeth Dare wrote this like fairly plausible on

1420
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 2: a rock. Don't laugh, No, I writes a rock like

1421
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 2: some shit, right, And a guy finds the rock. But

1422
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 2: the timing of him finding the rock was that a

1423
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 2: timing of like heightened the public curiosity about this is

1424
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 2: when the legend started to emerge. And then you have

1425
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 2: a dozen copycat rocks. So all the copycat rocks are obviously,

1426
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 2: and then the one rock is suspicious, and now people

1427
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 2: don't accept that rock to be true. But that rock

1428
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,440
Speaker 2: basically said like we've been whittled away and killed and kidnapped.

1429
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it was written to her father and

1430
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 4: to me though the love I like, I like the

1431
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 4: you know, so wait, like she was running around running

1432
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 4: from these hostile Native American tribes.

1433
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:34,639
Speaker 2: No, she was in their captivity at the time and.

1434
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 4: Carrying a scratching rocks the pound rock around slowly story

1435
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 4: into it.

1436
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it seems implausible.

1437
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 3: We need to go quickly get the rock.

1438
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 2: It seems implausible. We talked to these one authors. They

1439
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:53,600
Speaker 2: they kind of laugh about that. It's called the Dairstone.

1440
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 2: They laugh about the Dairstone. You gotta have a pretty

1441
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 2: sophisticated understanding of the language at the time. But one

1442
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 2: of the things they laughed about the Airstone is it

1443
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 2: like a decent analogy would be, let's say I were

1444
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,760
Speaker 2: to talk to you in a Southern accent, right right,

1445
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 2: and a Southerner doesn't think I have a Southern accent.

1446
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 2: They're writing on the Dairstone is so like stereotypically.

1447
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 4: Ye old English, Yeah, yeah.

1448
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 2: And yeez, you know, like all over the place. They're like,

1449
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:28,400
Speaker 2: it's just it's like someone who's like read some Shakespeare

1450
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 2: or something trying to write a note in Shakespeare language.

1451
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 2: You know or whatever. And that's one of the better

1452
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 2: indictments of the other indictment to be this play comes.

1453
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:39,360
Speaker 4: Out right right at the same time.

1454
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, this very popular performance comes out. It's still running

1455
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 2: today and and and the fervor of the popularity of

1456
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:48,440
Speaker 2: this they're low and behold as the daarstone.

1457
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, but again, I mean like, these are not selected

1458
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 4: because they're like finite mysteries. They're they're selected because they're

1459
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 4: they're there's they're mystery with all kinds of possibilities, and

1460
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:03,840
Speaker 4: that's what makes it fun, you know.

1461
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that one will be solved, and

1462
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 2: just a spoiler alert, that's what I say. In the end,

1463
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't think there's like a thing when

1464
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 2: you look at it, like there's a lot of people

1465
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:16,640
Speaker 2: looking and a lot of people ask the question, but

1466
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 2: there's not it's too there's not a clean answer. I

1467
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 2: don't think there is a clean answer, right, but.

1468
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:27,439
Speaker 4: In the questions I'm asked for a long time. But

1469
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 4: I think what was like, what was really cool about

1470
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 4: this concept and really unique to this concept is no

1471
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 4: one's really asked those questions from an outdoor standpoint. So

1472
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:42,600
Speaker 4: these are all mysteries that have a element of the

1473
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 4: outdoors right in the in wilderness, and no one's really

1474
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 4: approached them from from that point of view. And it's

1475
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 4: a lot of what we spend our time in the

1476
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 4: show doing is like living these things and and going

1477
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 4: through to the best of our ability, the things that

1478
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 4: those people went through, or it's suspected that they possibly

1479
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 4: went through.

1480
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, going but going to the real places kind of

1481
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:10,639
Speaker 2: blows your mind because there's this one theory that emerged.

1482
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 2: They said, even though they had written that stuff on

1483
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 2: the thing, there was also an expression of intention that

1484
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:21,720
Speaker 2: they moved fifty miles to the main which you can

1485
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 2: take it different ways. One interpretation is they went fifty

1486
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 2: miles inland, which lands you in this place we went to,

1487
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:33,439
Speaker 2: which is called the Great Dismal Swamp. And you go

1488
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 2: into that stuff, you're like, oh, yeah, you guys under

1489
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 2: like kids and stuff, and you're all wearing like petticoats

1490
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 2: or ever the hell they ran around it, and like

1491
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 2: you're navigating that, you know, you're like wading to the

1492
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 2: Great Dismal Swamp.

1493
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 4: And what's kind of amazing though, is when when we

1494
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 4: went you go there now and there's a bunch of

1495
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 4: dry land. There a bunch of agricultural land, but all

1496
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:59,639
Speaker 4: of that land was was drained. That was all just swamp.

1497
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 4: When you think of the prototypical swamp like Kermit the

1498
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,719
Speaker 4: Frog at the beginning of the Muppet movie, level swamp,

1499
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 4: like that's what it was. Lily pads and cypress trees

1500
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 4: that whole area.

1501
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:15,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, we I mean, you know, it's an hour long show.

1502
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:17,719
Speaker 2: You can't explore any avenue of this and this would

1503
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 2: have been like way down the list for how sort

1504
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 2: of outside of the story it was. But that area

1505
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 2: some of the most harshest slave conditions, Yes, in the

1506
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 2: history of slavery in the South, some of the most harshest,

1507
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 2: like high death rate slave conditions was making that dry land. Yeah,

1508
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 2: they were put to work draining that land. Yeah, and

1509
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,240
Speaker 2: these mallarial you know, and mallarial conditions.

1510
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 4: Those canals are also just criss crossing the land. You

1511
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 4: see those canals that they dug, and the imagine the

1512
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:57,320
Speaker 4: conditions under which they were.

1513
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 2: Looking at just many many, many many square miles upon

1514
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 2: square miles upon square miles. It was hand dug trenches

1515
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 2: to drain that ground. It was just like a disposal

1516
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 2: place for humans that you just pour into like you

1517
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 2: like you're pouring them into a war, pouring slaves into

1518
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 2: that job, which, like I said, wasn't a lot of

1519
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:19,879
Speaker 2: room too. Maybe a future maybe a future episode. Uh.

1520
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 2: Another one of going to the spot, we'll talk about

1521
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 2: this one, we'll wrap it up, is going to Donner

1522
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,639
Speaker 2: Pass where the Donner Party, where that all went down.

1523
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 2: And one of the funniest things just happened in a

1524
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:36,600
Speaker 2: parking lot. It's not in our show because it just

1525
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 2: happened in a parking lot. Someone we ran into some guys.

1526
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 2: They were filming. They were doing like some ski stuff

1527
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 2: or something. I think what they're doing. We got talking

1528
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: to them. They were talking about So this is like

1529
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 2: a third third hand story because we're out filming a

1530
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 2: dinner Pass and they're filming like some skis nothing to

1531
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 2: do with Donner Party. We're feeling about the dinner party

1532
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 2: and they're filming some ski stuff and they share it

1533
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 2: with us. These people that they hadn't counter who were

1534
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 2: in Donner Pass because they were doing a thing about

1535
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:13,759
Speaker 2: places with Christmas names, right, you know, Donnor and Dancer.

1536
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 2: That's the funniest thing the world. Amazing. Uh, that was

1537
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 2: pretty amazing background on Donner Party. Donner Party was well,

1538
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:25,599
Speaker 2: first off, I'm gonna talk about what before I get

1539
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:27,439
Speaker 2: into what it was, I'm gonna talk about However, what

1540
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 2: everybody knows, including me, what I know about the Donner

1541
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 2: Party is it was an American horror story where people

1542
01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 2: ate each other full stop. Right, They're like, yeah, they

1543
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:44,040
Speaker 2: got stuck in the mountains and ate each other. Mm hmm, yeah, right,

1544
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 2: that's the story there there in the story. It's a

1545
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 2: very short episode. That's the story of the Donner Party.

1546
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 2: That's what That's what I went into it knowing about.

1547
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 2: You know, I was actually like a little skeptical because

1548
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 2: I was like, what is it? You know, what is

1549
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 2: it really to do? You know?

1550
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 4: So no, I think we were all like that was

1551
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 4: a show that we pitched many times, like a concept

1552
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 4: that we pitched many times. And the question we all

1553
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:09,400
Speaker 4: had was like, well, like what's the story? Like what's

1554
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 4: the mystery? What's the story? You know, they got snowed in,

1555
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 4: they ate each other. I don't you know, what are

1556
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:16,280
Speaker 4: we gonna do?

1557
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 3: Seems pretty straightforward?

1558
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 2: It ain't. It ain't. There's a lot like who's to

1559
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:30,080
Speaker 2: here's the questions who's to blame and what could they

1560
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 2: really have done different? Right? And why did what happened happen?

1561
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 2: And now I'm gonna say a little bit of the

1562
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:42,720
Speaker 2: scene is like eighteen forty six, so pre Gold Rush,

1563
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 2: Like everybody's heard of the forty nine ers, ye, right, member,

1564
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 2: we had Elliott west On, he goes. Everybody's to talk

1565
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 2: about the forty nine ers, But the lucky ones were

1566
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 2: the forty eight ers. The forty eight ers got all

1567
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 2: the gold. The forty nine they were late. We're a

1568
01:26:59,000 --> 01:26:59,639
Speaker 2: little late.

1569
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 4: So these folks were hopeful forty eight ers.

1570
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so these guys, uh, the dinner party, they're coming

1571
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:08,799
Speaker 2: over in eighteen forty six. And the way these emigrant

1572
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:12,720
Speaker 2: trains worked, as I learned through this project, is like

1573
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:19,320
Speaker 2: they're they're like there's a fluidity to how these groups

1574
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 2: come together. You know, there's a kind of rough timeline.

1575
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,080
Speaker 2: Like if you're going to cross the Great Plains, across

1576
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:27,320
Speaker 2: the Rockies and across the Sierra Nevada, it's like you

1577
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 2: gotta get going as early in the spring as you

1578
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 2: can to have the maxim amount of time so you

1579
01:27:31,479 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 2: can cross the continent and get there before snow. But

1580
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 2: you can't leave until the ground dries out. So it's

1581
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:40,759
Speaker 2: hard to get going in March because you're gonna encounter

1582
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:44,719
Speaker 2: flood swollen rivers. Right, there's mud everywhere, so you gotta

1583
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 2: be like, shit's got to dry out, and there's a race.

1584
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 2: It's like stuff dries out, water levels come down from

1585
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:53,599
Speaker 2: snow melt, and all of a sudden, it's a good

1586
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,559
Speaker 2: time to go, and then you haul ass. And then

1587
01:27:56,680 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 2: on the other end, you're bracketed in by the coming

1588
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:01,040
Speaker 2: of bad weather. So there's like you pick your window

1589
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 2: and and groups come together and they meet in these

1590
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:09,200
Speaker 2: certain spots and uh, what was the big town everybody

1591
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:15,240
Speaker 2: took off? These guys all took out of us, not Springfield, Springfield, Missouri. Yeah,

1592
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 2: what's that independence? Yes, I think that's it where they

1593
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 2: took off from. Anyways, you come together and you form

1594
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:28,719
Speaker 2: your your parties come together in family groups. Family groups

1595
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 2: form up, right, so you when you cross in a

1596
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 2: wagon train, you might be with your extended family. It's

1597
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 2: it's you, you know, it's your brother, it's your brother's

1598
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 2: wife and kids, it's your mom and dad, it's your

1599
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 2: uncle and his family. But then you you join up

1600
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:49,360
Speaker 2: with all these other family units. So you're in a party,

1601
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 2: but you're loosely bound.

1602
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:54,639
Speaker 4: Family units and bachelors and you know, all all kinds

1603
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 4: of different.

1604
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:57,759
Speaker 2: Things and guides and hopefully a guide it's been there before,

1605
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 2: and there's like, uh, you're literally taking votes to to

1606
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,320
Speaker 2: to put forward like a leader. So when we say

1607
01:29:06,360 --> 01:29:08,719
Speaker 2: the Donner Party, you know, winds up being it winds

1608
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:14,759
Speaker 2: up being ninety some individuals of like two primary clans,

1609
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 2: but then a bunch of other people kind of surrounding

1610
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:21,560
Speaker 2: these clans. And they get all the way out to uh,

1611
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 2: they get all the way out to Fort Bridger, and

1612
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,960
Speaker 2: they are fed some bad information about a thing called

1613
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 2: Hastings cut off. It's super funny about Hastings cut off,

1614
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:39,479
Speaker 2: as it was billed to them as shorter and easier. Okay,

1615
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 2: this is this is the great part of this. It's

1616
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 2: way harder and now that you can like measure stuff accurately,

1617
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:50,280
Speaker 2: it's not stronger Hastings cut off, which is shorter and easier.

1618
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:51,679
Speaker 2: It's longer and harder.

1619
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:54,280
Speaker 3: Pretty rare in the world of cutoffs.

1620
01:29:55,320 --> 01:29:59,439
Speaker 2: It's like a shitty long cut. Yeah, and they have

1621
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 2: a lot of an internal division. Donner's wife, for instance,

1622
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 2: is like I don't think we should do it. But

1623
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 2: this is crazy because Jim Bridger gets rolled up in

1624
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:12,840
Speaker 2: this whole thing. Jim Bridger. He all these wagon trains

1625
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:15,920
Speaker 2: are taking a route that's causing them to bypass Fort Bridger.

1626
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:21,040
Speaker 2: Bridger who's already a compromised individual in some ways because

1627
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 2: famously it was Jim Bridger who abandoned Hugh Glass and

1628
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,639
Speaker 2: the whole Revenant incident. Right, so Bridger is or isn't,

1629
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:30,640
Speaker 2: like the world's greatest guy. Bridger is like, shit, now

1630
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 2: no one goes by my fort anymore. And he's like,

1631
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 2: Hastings cut Off sounds great. It goes right past my fort.

1632
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,599
Speaker 2: You guys should definitely take Hastings cut Off and stop

1633
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 2: by well trade, I'll sell you some shit. And they

1634
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 2: do this and uh and when they leave on Hastings

1635
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 2: cut Off, here's the crazy part. So like other wagon

1636
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 2: trains at the time they go south on Hastings cut Off,

1637
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 2: which is going to go over the wall Satch Range

1638
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:01,000
Speaker 2: and then through Dinner Pass. Well it joins back up

1639
01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 2: before Donner Pass. Anyways, when they there's other wagon chains

1640
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 2: that they're with, the wagon chains they're with that don't

1641
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 2: take Hastings cut off, make it to California just fine

1642
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:17,520
Speaker 2: going over Donner Pass. So they do this south loop

1643
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 2: and it sets them back so far and encounter so

1644
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,879
Speaker 2: many weird problems that they wind up behind other parties

1645
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,680
Speaker 2: when they go up Donner Pass. So they're not pioneering

1646
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 2: Donner Pass. Donner Pass has successfully been used.

1647
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:33,599
Speaker 4: Been used in years prior.

1648
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and they start up in the snow and

1649
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:40,680
Speaker 2: they get uh the.

1650
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 4: They well, it's it's like important to note to you.

1651
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:47,200
Speaker 4: It's not that they actually don't arrive at the bottom

1652
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 4: of Dinner Donner Pass particularly late, despite all of their problems.

1653
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:53,080
Speaker 4: It's it's the end of October.

1654
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an early storm.

1655
01:31:56,439 --> 01:32:00,040
Speaker 4: Right, parties had crossed as late as December.

1656
01:32:00,080 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're in years past. I forgot that detail. Yeah,

1657
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 2: that's anar thing. Is like, that's a great point because

1658
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 2: you also start there's this kind of narrative that they

1659
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 2: were like I was just laying out like stupid to

1660
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:14,679
Speaker 2: go up there. Yeah, they were late, they were late,

1661
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 2: but it had been done. They were late, but it

1662
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:19,599
Speaker 2: had been done. But then they got up in the

1663
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:24,439
Speaker 2: mountains in a situation where it was just insane snow.

1664
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,599
Speaker 2: It was an abnormal snow year. Yeah, and they lingered,

1665
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:32,719
Speaker 2: they got up there. It was an early snowstorm. Perhaps

1666
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 2: they could have backed out, but they felt that they

1667
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:38,160
Speaker 2: would get a thaw. Right, what are the odds that's

1668
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:40,160
Speaker 2: going to keep happening? Right all the time, like living

1669
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:42,680
Speaker 2: in the Northern Rockies, you know, also in October, like

1670
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 2: what big old storm, and then like a month later,

1671
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:47,760
Speaker 2: it's like seventy degrees and you're like hunting in your

1672
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 2: t shirt and you're like, God, it isn't that weird.

1673
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 2: It was like, you know, two feet of snow here

1674
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. They thought it'd be that,

1675
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 2: but it just got worse, deeper, worse, deeper, and they

1676
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 2: lingered too long, and then it became impossible to back out.

1677
01:33:01,640 --> 01:33:03,600
Speaker 4: And when you talk about worse and deeper, like the

1678
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:08,200
Speaker 4: numbers are astounding, like the amount of snowfall in that area,

1679
01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:12,559
Speaker 4: they'll get sixty feet a snowfall in Donner Pass.

1680
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:16,320
Speaker 2: They're climbing, they make these all these little shelters. We'll

1681
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 2: talk about those in a minute. They're getting to where

1682
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:25,759
Speaker 2: they're climbing tunnels up out of their shelters. You climb

1683
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:29,040
Speaker 2: out and pop out on the surface and they're cutting wood.

1684
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:31,679
Speaker 2: There's pictures later where there it be a dude standing

1685
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 2: on dry ground. Yeah, and way up above his head

1686
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 2: is a cut off tree, Yeah, thirty feet and he

1687
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:39,880
Speaker 2: realized that's where they were cutting wood, walking around on

1688
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 2: top of all that snow. But here's where all this

1689
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 2: whole Donner party shit changes for me, is it's ninety

1690
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 2: people over half a little kids. You never think about that, yeh,

1691
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:52,839
Speaker 2: No one ever thinks about it's little kids.

1692
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, And.

1693
01:33:56,560 --> 01:34:00,839
Speaker 2: Like, statistically the little kids were more likely to survive,

1694
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 2: and also statistically parents of little kids were more likely to.

1695
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:09,559
Speaker 4: Survive, and statistically women were more likely to.

1696
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:11,240
Speaker 2: Survive, more likely to survive.

1697
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:16,719
Speaker 4: That the people who did who fared the worst were

1698
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 4: unattached bachelors.

1699
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, a handful of reasons, like supposed reasons why they

1700
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:25,200
Speaker 2: were already working their.

1701
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 4: Ass saatigued from the trip out that far that.

1702
01:34:27,840 --> 01:34:31,120
Speaker 2: They were assuming all this work, doing all this stuff,

1703
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 2: so they're going into it very lean. Meanwhile, people who

1704
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:36,880
Speaker 2: had been able to ride in the wagons weren't as

1705
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:39,519
Speaker 2: physically depleted. There's also like a little bit of a

1706
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:42,719
Speaker 2: psychological element there winds up being this group decides eventually

1707
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 2: to make a break for it, and it's called the

1708
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:46,519
Speaker 2: Forlorn Hope Party. And they make a break for it

1709
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:50,160
Speaker 2: in the California direction. They're going to cross Dinner paths.

1710
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 2: They're almost to the top of Donner Pass. They're going

1711
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 2: to cross the pass and go for it on foot. Yeah,

1712
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:56,800
Speaker 2: on foot. They make no issues. They think they'll do

1713
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:58,639
Speaker 2: They think they'll be there in some number of days.

1714
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,760
Speaker 2: It takes weeks. Of the people that left on that

1715
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:09,840
Speaker 2: Forlorn Hope Party, parents lived, people with, people with relatives

1716
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 2: at the camp. Yeah, other people just are like fuck

1717
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:16,120
Speaker 2: it and just died, you know, because they probably got

1718
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 2: where there was no point, you know, And there is cannibalism,

1719
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:24,080
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, these people were condemned for

1720
01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:25,720
Speaker 2: a long time for it, but when you start looking

1721
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:29,599
Speaker 2: at it, was like you start getting it. Like they

1722
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 2: did everything they could possibly do, everything they could possibly

1723
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 2: do to keep their families alive. And I don't think

1724
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:40,360
Speaker 2: anyone would do anything differently.

1725
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 4: I think the only thing that would be done differently

1726
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 4: in a modern context, and I mean this in all seriousness,

1727
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,400
Speaker 4: is that cannibalism would have started much earlier. I think

1728
01:35:50,439 --> 01:35:54,640
Speaker 4: that you're talking about a time when people are you know,

1729
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,519
Speaker 4: we talk about in Roanoke like the last thing to go,

1730
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:01,480
Speaker 4: or religious practices. These are peopleeople who are highly religious

1731
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 4: and highly driven to live by that code, and that

1732
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:09,840
Speaker 4: code is very specific about eating other folks, you know,

1733
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:15,200
Speaker 4: and they hold on for what would seem like forever,

1734
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 4: just a torturous amount of time of starving to death,

1735
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 4: trying to scrape food together in any way they can

1736
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:26,920
Speaker 4: before they before they start eating people.

1737
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:33,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one dark element to it. They it seems

1738
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 2: like no one really knows all the details. But if

1739
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:37,880
Speaker 2: you look at all the journals and evidence and all that,

1740
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 2: it seems like cannibalism with one exception. Cannibalism was limited

1741
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:46,879
Speaker 2: to people eating people who had starve to death. Okay,

1742
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 2: they're eating people would starve to death. But there's a

1743
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 2: guy in the dinner party who's kind of like, throughout

1744
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:54,200
Speaker 2: the whole story kind of emerges as a real asshole.

1745
01:36:56,120 --> 01:37:01,200
Speaker 2: He murders two Native American guides that they have. But

1746
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:05,840
Speaker 2: at that time that was not illegal. It would have

1747
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:09,320
Speaker 2: been illegal to shoot someone's cow, it was not illegal

1748
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 2: to murder two Native Americans. He outright murders two Native

1749
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:18,760
Speaker 2: Americans to eat them, and then later everybody knows that

1750
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 2: he did. He just lives his life.

1751
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, not picked up.

1752
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:25,639
Speaker 2: They talked about doing something. No one ever did anything

1753
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:29,080
Speaker 2: to that dude. And there's also all these other crazy stories,

1754
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:33,720
Speaker 2: like one of the search parties, as it's told, like

1755
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:36,320
Speaker 2: it was quite a sight when search parties started to come.

1756
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:38,080
Speaker 2: But when search parties came, they had to kind of

1757
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 2: ferry them out. Like a search party shows up and

1758
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 2: they can only take a handful of people, so they're like, okay,

1759
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:46,480
Speaker 2: everybody wait here. They take a handful of people to California.

1760
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:48,800
Speaker 2: Come back one time. They come back and as the

1761
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 2: story goes, here's a guy holding walking along with a

1762
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:57,160
Speaker 2: human leg and sees the search party people and has

1763
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:03,160
Speaker 2: the wherewithal to throw it down in the snow. My

1764
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 2: dog tries that trick, like you got busted. We met

1765
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,439
Speaker 2: with an archaeologists that dug one of the camps. They

1766
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 2: were at two different camp two primary camp locations, and

1767
01:38:16,160 --> 01:38:21,599
Speaker 2: they dug one of the camps and found the remains

1768
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 2: of all kinds of stuff that they were they were eating. Uh.

1769
01:38:26,120 --> 01:38:28,360
Speaker 2: At one point early on, they killed a bear, they

1770
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 2: killed a grizzly early on, they killed dogs, They had

1771
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:32,880
Speaker 2: oxen they killed.

1772
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:37,600
Speaker 4: They had lots of small games, deer.

1773
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:42,960
Speaker 2: Rodents and stuff they were killing, and they were they

1774
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:44,599
Speaker 2: One of the things they were doing is they were

1775
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:47,160
Speaker 2: eating animal hide. So early on they had no way

1776
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:49,479
Speaker 2: to feed their oxen, so they were killing the oxen

1777
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 2: and just eating the meat. And then later they started

1778
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:54,960
Speaker 2: revisiting it and they started eating the bones. But when

1779
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,040
Speaker 2: they killed them, they used the hides to help them

1780
01:38:57,080 --> 01:38:59,760
Speaker 2: make roofs and doors on structures. They were making like

1781
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:01,840
Speaker 2: ten like structures with hides. We made one of these

1782
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:05,519
Speaker 2: structures with this rotten ass cow hide, uh, and slept

1783
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 2: in there. It was one of the worst smelling rotting cowhide,

1784
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 2: and we use it for a shelter. It was a

1785
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 2: great shelter. I mean, you could keep a lot of

1786
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:18,160
Speaker 2: warmth in that thing with a fire, like you could

1787
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:22,640
Speaker 2: make a warm in air. But stank. We got like

1788
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:26,479
Speaker 2: a little chimney and stuff coming out there. Uh So

1789
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 2: how was I getting in with that?

1790
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 4: We were talking about the animals that they.

1791
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:37,920
Speaker 2: They started eating the hides, and then they started boiling

1792
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:40,720
Speaker 2: the bones and crushing the bones and boiling and eating

1793
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 2: the bones. And there's a thing I read after the

1794
01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:45,360
Speaker 2: fact that I really wish I had read before we

1795
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 2: did it. A guy happens to give me. One of

1796
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:51,280
Speaker 2: our podcast guests, Randy Brown, gives me a book called

1797
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:55,679
Speaker 2: Death on the Barren Ground, and it's this journal of

1798
01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:57,960
Speaker 2: of It's a journal of one guy who was in

1799
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 2: a party of three people and they all starved death.

1800
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:04,080
Speaker 2: The youngest guy lives longest, and he keeps a meticulous

1801
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:08,200
Speaker 2: journal chronicling the starvation death of his two companions and

1802
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:11,840
Speaker 2: then chronicling his own death of starvation. Okay, and they

1803
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 2: all die in the nineteen twenties in the Canadian Arctic

1804
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 2: along the Thelon River. It's so crazy because they wind

1805
01:40:18,520 --> 01:40:22,000
Speaker 2: up eating that exact same diet they had been trapping,

1806
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:25,599
Speaker 2: so they had wolverines and stuff, and they're eating wolverine hides,

1807
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:27,880
Speaker 2: weasel hides that they had built up before they started

1808
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 2: to starve to death, and they're eating bones and what's

1809
01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:37,040
Speaker 2: killing them Like they're dying of starvation, yes, but what's

1810
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:42,719
Speaker 2: really killing them is these terrible bottle obstructions because they're

1811
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,160
Speaker 2: eating that boiled, crushed bone. In the absence of other stuff,

1812
01:40:46,200 --> 01:40:51,720
Speaker 2: they're trying to build makeshift enema devices and they're literally

1813
01:40:51,880 --> 01:40:56,960
Speaker 2: digging out of each other's rectums, dried gobs of crushed

1814
01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:01,080
Speaker 2: bone and like that are forming in of these gelatinous

1815
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 2: balls from that boiled animal hide. And then the hair follicles,

1816
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:07,840
Speaker 2: because you're eating, you're scraping the hair away, but there's

1817
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 2: all that hair follicle, and that hair follicle is joining

1818
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:14,240
Speaker 2: up into balls of hair. When they find these guys'

1819
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:17,280
Speaker 2: bodies a couple of years later, the Royal Mounted Police

1820
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:20,479
Speaker 2: do like a report. They are nothing but skeletons, but

1821
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,880
Speaker 2: there's still what he describes as a plate of excrement

1822
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 2: in the cabin of this bone ball.

1823
01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:30,640
Speaker 3: Concrete.

1824
01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they talk about And so we met with an

1825
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:40,519
Speaker 2: archaeologist who worked on this bone project. And then I

1826
01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 2: later was like after we met, after we got done

1827
01:41:42,920 --> 01:41:45,840
Speaker 2: film in our episode, I sent her, I was like, hey,

1828
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:48,639
Speaker 2: for your work. Here's this great journal of like what

1829
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:51,280
Speaker 2: happens when you eat these diets, and like that's what

1830
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:54,639
Speaker 2: killing that's what's killing those guys, these guys, these Canadian

1831
01:41:54,720 --> 01:41:57,599
Speaker 2: Arctic guys, what's killing them? They would have died anyway,

1832
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:02,080
Speaker 2: But what's like the immediate biggest problem them is that

1833
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:06,800
Speaker 2: that the bowel obstruction and digestive problems of eating, like

1834
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:11,240
Speaker 2: non edible. Yeah, needing eating non digestible stuff in a

1835
01:42:11,320 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 2: state of desperation.

1836
01:42:12,360 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, they talk about, you know, in in dinner, they

1837
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:18,880
Speaker 4: talk about boiling those bones so many times boiling and

1838
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 4: reboiling that they get something called pop polish, which is

1839
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:26,680
Speaker 4: like they basically turned to porcelain in that pot as

1840
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 4: they try to extract whatever nutrients they can out of

1841
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:32,599
Speaker 4: out of what's left of the bone.

1842
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:35,479
Speaker 2: We boiled up some raw hide. Yeah, and its like

1843
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:37,560
Speaker 2: you can make it pretty edible, man, when you boil it.

1844
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 2: Actually it's actually not that. It's like, why is it

1845
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 2: being like quite flavorless and has a most out of umi.

1846
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 3: More of the broth that that wasn't the rotten that.

1847
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:56,360
Speaker 2: We talked about.

1848
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:59,240
Speaker 4: It safe for consumption.

1849
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had had. We had a handful.

1850
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:02,040
Speaker 4: If you're starving out there, you need it.

1851
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. We did some snow shoes. They made snow shoes.

1852
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:07,000
Speaker 2: We mocked up some snow shoes. We worked with the

1853
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:09,280
Speaker 2: guy that spent some time, spent a lot of time

1854
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:10,120
Speaker 2: hiking the path.

1855
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:10,439
Speaker 4: You know.

1856
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:17,040
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, man, being in the dinner pass, you're

1857
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:18,479
Speaker 2: like there eight, I can tell you one thing ain't

1858
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:19,320
Speaker 2: ship to eat here.

1859
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 4: We tried to hunt like you know, squirrels, small game.

1860
01:43:24,439 --> 01:43:26,880
Speaker 4: You end up like in an hour, you burn more

1861
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:30,040
Speaker 4: calories than you could possibly hunt, you know, for the

1862
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 4: whole day.

1863
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,400
Speaker 2: It's just like it's just it's like it's a subalpine.

1864
01:43:33,439 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 3: It's like like it's rocket.

1865
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:41,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's not like that. It's but it's i mean,

1866
01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 4: at a certain point it's like almost like what's the difference.

1867
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's subalpine. It's like fifty percent of

1868
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:50,960
Speaker 2: every surface is rock and you got little like dwarfed

1869
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:54,160
Speaker 2: up spruce and fur and there's some there's some pond

1870
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 2: of roses here and there, but it's just like a

1871
01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:59,680
Speaker 2: very poor ground. And you talk to guys there, like

1872
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:03,360
Speaker 2: we talked the hunters there, and hunters are like, dude,

1873
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,080
Speaker 2: the first whiff of snow, yeah, everything they do not.

1874
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:09,839
Speaker 4: Snowf on the country.

1875
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're like you come up in the summer,

1876
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:16,560
Speaker 2: but they're gone, they're gone early. Yeah, you know, this

1877
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:19,000
Speaker 2: is nothing. There's nothing. I mean they killed like a

1878
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 2: like a some crows whatever here and there.

1879
01:44:22,760 --> 01:44:25,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, but again nothing nothing that was enough to replace

1880
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:28,920
Speaker 4: the calories they were burning on it. So it's a

1881
01:44:29,120 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 4: it's what was fascinating to me about that story is

1882
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:34,120
Speaker 4: like you go in, you know, and I think this

1883
01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 4: is like throughout the series, you go in like with

1884
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:40,240
Speaker 4: one concept. Yeah, you're like dinner party, you know, cannibals,

1885
01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 4: like I get it, Like you don't get it at all.

1886
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:47,040
Speaker 4: And you when you when you do the research, and

1887
01:44:47,160 --> 01:44:50,920
Speaker 4: in conjunction with doing the research, spend time in the

1888
01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:54,840
Speaker 4: place trying to do the things that they have done,

1889
01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 4: you have a completely new perspective on it. And so

1890
01:44:58,040 --> 01:44:59,720
Speaker 4: you go into the story being like, Wow, what a

1891
01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 4: bunch of like fools that ended up eating each other

1892
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:05,080
Speaker 4: in the mountains, And you come out of it being like, well,

1893
01:45:05,120 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 4: what a bunch of heroes. Yeah, you know, this is

1894
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:11,000
Speaker 4: the level of heroics that went into saving those kids.

1895
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:15,679
Speaker 4: There's a great story about one of the women who

1896
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 4: stayed back at h at one of the two sites,

1897
01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:22,040
Speaker 4: which was Donner Lake. Is right at the at the

1898
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 4: end of Donner Lake, she's basically responsible for all these kids.

1899
01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:33,000
Speaker 4: You know, she delivers as the story goes, she delivers

1900
01:45:33,040 --> 01:45:36,640
Speaker 4: the last kid to that rescue party and then just

1901
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:40,600
Speaker 4: leans up against the cabin wall and and dies, you know.

1902
01:45:40,640 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 4: And it's and it's the story is like full of

1903
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:49,040
Speaker 4: these little, these little sub stories like that that that

1904
01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:54,200
Speaker 4: just I find like incredibly moving and like a total

1905
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 4: rewrite of what I understood of of that history.

1906
01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:00,960
Speaker 2: Now, I kept vowing that I was gonna stop making

1907
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:07,759
Speaker 2: any and all Donner jokes, Donner Family, Christmas, Donner Dinner Party.

1908
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:12,559
Speaker 2: No I stuck to it. Now, you know, we were

1909
01:46:12,640 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 2: joking like, did you know that Saddam Hussein has books

1910
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:20,960
Speaker 2: of poetry? So just like you could say, like, you know,

1911
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,760
Speaker 2: the poet Saddam Hussein. No one says that, right, he

1912
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:27,040
Speaker 2: has a novel, so you can say the poet novelist

1913
01:46:27,080 --> 01:46:30,559
Speaker 2: Saddam Hussein. You'd never say that. So now when someone

1914
01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:35,360
Speaker 2: say from now on, I might actually yeah, when we

1915
01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:39,600
Speaker 2: overthrew the poet novelist Saddam Hussein. Uh So, now you

1916
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:41,960
Speaker 2: know you'd be like Donner Party. You know, I'm gonna

1917
01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 2: start doing something similar, but the opposite. I'm gonna say, oh,

1918
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 2: the heroes the Donner Party. Yeah, I'm not gonna say, oh,

1919
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:51,280
Speaker 2: dirty cannibals. I'm gonna say, you know, the heroes the

1920
01:46:51,320 --> 01:46:53,759
Speaker 2: Dinner Party saved all those kids, saved all those children,

1921
01:46:54,200 --> 01:46:56,240
Speaker 2: wonderful story of hope.

1922
01:46:56,960 --> 01:46:59,560
Speaker 3: You know, one of our finest moments.

1923
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:01,559
Speaker 2: There's an half of them died, half of them.

1924
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 4: Lived, almost half of them died, more than half of

1925
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:10,600
Speaker 4: them lived. And the other little sub note, And you

1926
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 4: don't make this the last thing on this, but like

1927
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 4: I love the fact that his name the Donner, you know,

1928
01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:18,479
Speaker 4: the Donner Party and Donner Pass, and we know it

1929
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 4: as the Donners when you get into history. George Donner

1930
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:27,759
Speaker 4: stopped because he had he had wounded his hand trying

1931
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 4: to trying to build a wagon wheel. He cut his hand,

1932
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:37,880
Speaker 4: and uh, and it was festering, so he stopped six

1933
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:43,679
Speaker 4: miles short. George Donner after which the entire fiasco is named,

1934
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:46,320
Speaker 4: never even saw the pass. YEA.

1935
01:47:48,760 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 2: He died of an infection. He got a somewhat superficial

1936
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:54,040
Speaker 2: caught on his hand. He thought he'd be fine. Dies

1937
01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:57,559
Speaker 2: of an infection, that's great, and never lay his eyes

1938
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,439
Speaker 2: on the pass. Gets rich and there's there's a lot,

1939
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:03,000
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much more like they had. You know,

1940
01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 2: they had gotten into an internal fight on the way

1941
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:13,840
Speaker 2: and had like a fatality from internal squabbling, and they

1942
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:17,639
Speaker 2: the I believe it was the Piute as they were

1943
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:23,639
Speaker 2: approaching the past, the Piute in Nevada where really whittling

1944
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:26,599
Speaker 2: the way on their livestock. They had all these all

1945
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,200
Speaker 2: these normal problems, should say no, yeah, yeah, all the

1946
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 2: problems typical of people trying to cross right. They weren't.

1947
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:37,960
Speaker 2: They weren't like exceptional in any way. And then then

1948
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 2: doing during the gold Rush, people resumed flooding over that thing,

1949
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:46,120
Speaker 2: man flooding over that past. And now you're standing there

1950
01:48:46,120 --> 01:48:48,479
Speaker 2: and there's like the highway doesn't go that way, there's

1951
01:48:48,479 --> 01:48:51,519
Speaker 2: a highway that goes over it. There's another highway over it.

1952
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:53,840
Speaker 2: And you standing look and be like, who in the

1953
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 2: hell would think you could get a wagon through here?

1954
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:58,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I've seen the signs.

1955
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:00,840
Speaker 2: It is a wicked it's unreal pass.

1956
01:49:00,920 --> 01:49:03,280
Speaker 4: It's unreal. I mean they they took the wagons apart

1957
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 4: and block and tackle pulled them up, the pulled them

1958
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:10,880
Speaker 4: up those cliffs. And now it's like, you know, you're

1959
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:14,760
Speaker 4: within earshot of people going eighty five miles an hour

1960
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:16,519
Speaker 4: on a freeway.

1961
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:19,439
Speaker 2: That's just so funny, just driving in to do our work,

1962
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,400
Speaker 2: driving into film, Like I get into the airport, find arena, Yeah,

1963
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:26,760
Speaker 2: find arena and start driving up the highway and you

1964
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:29,799
Speaker 2: get to a sign and it says like Sacramento seventy

1965
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 2: two miles.

1966
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:31,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, like what fuck?

1967
01:49:32,080 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, better make a reservation. What's exactly problem?

1968
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:39,240
Speaker 3: Af chang there?

1969
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, seeing that signe it'd be like in your mind like,

1970
01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 2: oh shitting hour will be there. Yeah, we'll be over

1971
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 2: the mountains and out the other side and down in

1972
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:50,000
Speaker 2: the valley of the hour. You know, imagine the ship

1973
01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:53,639
Speaker 2: that like what that seventy two miles meant? Back then?

1974
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,639
Speaker 2: It's so funny you're on that highway. Also, I had

1975
01:49:56,640 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 2: this like deflated feeling. I'm like, oh, cool story, what pansies?

1976
01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:10,000
Speaker 2: Anybody could make it over there? Watch over there in

1977
01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:13,880
Speaker 2: an hour? Man. That was great. So that that's we

1978
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:14,479
Speaker 2: covered three.

1979
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:16,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's five more.

1980
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:20,280
Speaker 2: So. We did one on the oldest shipwreck in the

1981
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:22,960
Speaker 2: Great Lakes, the first ship to sail the Upper Great.

1982
01:50:22,800 --> 01:50:24,519
Speaker 4: Lakes, another fascinating story.

1983
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:28,160
Speaker 2: We did one on the mysteries of the first Americans.

1984
01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 2: We did one on we should have got well, we

1985
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 2: should have got into cattle mutilations.

1986
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:37,360
Speaker 4: Cattle mutilations is a lot of fun. It's a lot

1987
01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:40,120
Speaker 4: of fun too, because like that. There's another one where

1988
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:42,639
Speaker 4: I like, I know I went in with one perspective,

1989
01:50:42,760 --> 01:50:46,680
Speaker 4: it was like bullshit, like you walk away man, Like

1990
01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:49,680
Speaker 4: oh oh boy, yeah.

1991
01:50:49,439 --> 01:50:51,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about if we wanted

1992
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:56,080
Speaker 2: to do a podcast on cattle mutilations. I can't think

1993
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 2: of which one of the people we talked to be

1994
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,920
Speaker 2: best to have on. Oh all good. We had to

1995
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:02,280
Speaker 2: get a cam, a panel.

1996
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:06,439
Speaker 4: Enough here for most of the people in the Yeah.

1997
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 2: True.

1998
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:07,400
Speaker 4: I don't know if you can.

1999
01:51:07,320 --> 01:51:11,120
Speaker 2: Say community, but uh what else we got?

2000
01:51:11,160 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 4: Man, it's a big community. I mean, there's a lot

2001
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:16,240
Speaker 4: of people out there that have had these experiences.

2002
01:51:16,320 --> 01:51:19,760
Speaker 2: Here's one for people. We did one. We did one

2003
01:51:19,920 --> 01:51:23,240
Speaker 2: on a thing now known as the Alaska Triangle, which

2004
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:26,760
Speaker 2: is a portion of Alaska that some argue has like

2005
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:32,000
Speaker 2: this insane rate of disappearances aircraft, missing people, ships. But

2006
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:34,720
Speaker 2: we we examined it through the lens of a particular

2007
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 2: flight called the Beggage Bogs flight again from the seventies,

2008
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:44,040
Speaker 2: where the speaker of the house Hailbogs. Who if you're

2009
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:47,760
Speaker 2: an NPR fan, the journalist Koki Roberts who recently passed away,

2010
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 2: Kochi Roberts. Have you ever listened to NPR news and

2011
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 2: you heard the journalist Cookie Roberts her father was Hailbogs.

2012
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 2: He was the Speaker of the House. Alaska had one Congressman,

2013
01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 2: Nick Beggage, and the speed of the house. So like

2014
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:08,800
Speaker 2: the Speaker of the House, who's it now, Johnson uh

2015
01:52:09,320 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 2: Baggage and Bogs? Or on a plane with a congressional

2016
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:17,920
Speaker 2: aid in a pilot and the plane goes missing and

2017
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 2: is still missing today has never been found. Most of

2018
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:25,240
Speaker 2: the search area focused around. The search area for long

2019
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 2: time focused around a glacier that they thought perhaps it

2020
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:31,040
Speaker 2: had gone into a glacier, and you'd be like, what

2021
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:33,400
Speaker 2: do you mean by that? But we went to in

2022
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 2: doing it, we went to a place where a plane,

2023
01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:41,120
Speaker 2: a much bigger plane with many many more passengers, did

2024
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:44,000
Speaker 2: get eaten by a glacier and then many years later

2025
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:46,160
Speaker 2: regurgitated at the toe of the glacier.

2026
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:53,600
Speaker 4: It's absolutely fascinating. They crashed this, this globe master, you know,

2027
01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:58,679
Speaker 4: big prop plane, military transport members on it, on top

2028
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:03,599
Speaker 4: of this mountain. It falls into a crevass, snowed over,

2029
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:10,599
Speaker 4: and seventy years later, this massive glacier, colony glacier spits

2030
01:53:10,640 --> 01:53:13,839
Speaker 4: it out the bottom just as just piece shredded pieces

2031
01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:14,719
Speaker 4: of metal.

2032
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:18,640
Speaker 2: Every year the military every summer, the military goes and

2033
01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:21,080
Speaker 2: they scoured the tour of that glacier and there's still

2034
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:24,439
Speaker 2: identifying it would be just finger bones, and there's still

2035
01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:28,360
Speaker 2: identifying service members. And when we went, we flew over

2036
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:31,400
Speaker 2: in a helicopter. We didn't want to land there because

2037
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:34,320
Speaker 2: it's like, oh you know, it's almost like a gravesite.

2038
01:53:35,680 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 2: We flew over after it did this summer's work and

2039
01:53:38,200 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 2: there's orange spray paint circles. Wow, all along that glaciers,

2040
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:44,920
Speaker 2: not all on, but through good chunk of that there's

2041
01:53:44,920 --> 01:53:48,000
Speaker 2: like orange spray paint markers and arrows and circles where

2042
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:51,599
Speaker 2: they were recovering debris. The engines came out in big pieces,

2043
01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:54,479
Speaker 2: but a lot of it's just it's just like it pulled,

2044
01:53:55,200 --> 01:53:56,439
Speaker 2: it pulled, rides it to gravel.

2045
01:53:56,600 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know, just a massive garbageposal and you

2046
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,960
Speaker 4: think what it does to mountains. Yeah, yeah, there's this

2047
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:08,160
Speaker 4: a little plain man made a small aircraft.

2048
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:11,479
Speaker 2: But what's crazy is what's crazy is on this one,

2049
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:14,800
Speaker 2: the baggage Bog's flight, the glacier they were looking at.

2050
01:54:14,880 --> 01:54:16,880
Speaker 2: They spent a lot of time on this glacier. The

2051
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:20,600
Speaker 2: glaciers receded so much and it's been so long that

2052
01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:22,919
Speaker 2: when you look at the rate of flow of the glacier,

2053
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:26,559
Speaker 2: you can now rule out that it was in that glacier,

2054
01:54:27,160 --> 01:54:28,960
Speaker 2: because it was in that glacier to spit it out

2055
01:54:29,000 --> 01:54:33,400
Speaker 2: by now, but except the bottom of it.

2056
01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:35,560
Speaker 4: So this is this is what like, and this is

2057
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:38,360
Speaker 4: what's so cool is each one, each little facet of

2058
01:54:38,400 --> 01:54:42,040
Speaker 4: each one of these mysteries has all these permutations, all

2059
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 4: these possibilities. Like what's cool about that is that glacier

2060
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:52,040
Speaker 4: as as it as it, you know, kind of came

2061
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 4: down the mountain and into the basin, dug out a

2062
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:00,320
Speaker 4: lake that's eight hundred feet deep, dude, just.

2063
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 2: Like you can paddle a canoe crosses like some bitches,

2064
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 2: eight hundred.

2065
01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:03,840
Speaker 4: Feet eight ft pep.

2066
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:05,440
Speaker 2: It's in one edge of it is just a wall

2067
01:55:05,480 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 2: of ice. So yeah, it could have spat it out

2068
01:55:09,680 --> 01:55:11,600
Speaker 2: into eight hundred feet of water and a little crumpled

2069
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 2: up pieces. My guess to spoiler alert, I think it's

2070
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:21,760
Speaker 2: a Prince William sound, yeah, which is deeper, yeah, and

2071
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,880
Speaker 2: muckier and way bigger. Yeah, I think it's a Prince

2072
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:27,200
Speaker 2: William sound. And I'm not like out on a limb

2073
01:55:27,240 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 2: when I say that, But Uh, they focus very heavily

2074
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:37,080
Speaker 2: in one pass and one glacier at first and this doue.

2075
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 2: This pass we go through it with a plane. There's

2076
01:55:40,480 --> 01:55:42,400
Speaker 2: a pass where you're like going it's like the worst

2077
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:44,920
Speaker 2: pass in the world, like you know, a passion everything

2078
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 2: like a straight thing. It's a pass where you like

2079
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:49,920
Speaker 2: when you're the worst part of the past, you gotta

2080
01:55:49,960 --> 01:55:51,960
Speaker 2: take a forty five. You gotta not sorry, you gotta

2081
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 2: take a ninety degree turn. So you're going like sharp left,

2082
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 2: sharp right, get out there into a head wall and

2083
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:00,520
Speaker 2: it's takes incredible you fly.

2084
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:03,920
Speaker 4: To the end of this this you know of turning

2085
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:08,240
Speaker 4: and arm right, this massive kind of valley. It's first

2086
01:56:08,280 --> 01:56:11,560
Speaker 4: at first a body of water and then this valley

2087
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:14,839
Speaker 4: Portage pass and then and then Portage glacier and Portish

2088
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:17,080
Speaker 4: Lake who we were talking about. And as you get

2089
01:56:17,120 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 4: to the very end of it, you make a ninety

2090
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:22,760
Speaker 4: degree turn and only then can you see whether or

2091
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 4: not the pass is open. And if it's you.

2092
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:29,160
Speaker 2: Gotta check for oncoming aircraft too, Yeah, And if it's

2093
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 2: not open, you just got to keep turning and and

2094
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:33,440
Speaker 2: and do a one eighty and.

2095
01:56:33,400 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 4: Go right back to anchorage.

2096
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:36,160
Speaker 2: When we're sitting there. In the past. We hiked up

2097
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 2: in the past and we went down this lake. We're

2098
01:56:37,640 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 2: sitting there. After a while, we watched a plane. He

2099
01:56:41,320 --> 01:56:44,920
Speaker 2: gets up there, comes back, comes back and his head's

2100
01:56:44,960 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 2: back to anchorage. He's like, Nope, not today, closed up

2101
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:53,520
Speaker 2: that day the sketchy pass. Yeah, but yeah, man, on

2102
01:56:53,680 --> 01:56:56,160
Speaker 2: the what date? Yeah, January twenty eighth, if you want

2103
01:56:56,200 --> 01:56:56,800
Speaker 2: to watch the show.

2104
01:56:56,840 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 5: If people are listening to this, the day it drops

2105
01:56:58,960 --> 01:57:02,200
Speaker 5: it is the twentieth, So it'll be weekend a day

2106
01:57:02,240 --> 01:57:03,160
Speaker 5: from now, the twenty eighth.

2107
01:57:03,240 --> 01:57:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, molds gonna do credits.

2108
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 4: It wasn't quite the it wasn't quite the setup. I

2109
01:57:11,040 --> 01:57:13,080
Speaker 4: was like, I was like kind of hintings, like, let's

2110
01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:14,400
Speaker 4: kind of steer the last part of.

2111
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 2: The contents poved in this and I'm not listening. I

2112
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 2: want to say for you, I want to still yeah Mo,

2113
01:57:24,840 --> 01:57:28,480
Speaker 2: and I'm joking yeah, talk about who, talk about who

2114
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:28,960
Speaker 2: he worked with.

2115
01:57:29,560 --> 01:57:32,680
Speaker 4: I mean it is again as we talked about it,

2116
01:57:32,800 --> 01:57:34,120
Speaker 4: like the beginning of the show, I'll try to make

2117
01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:36,120
Speaker 4: a seguay. Now you're not going to do the work.

2118
01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:39,840
Speaker 4: As we talked about the beginning of the show, it's

2119
01:57:39,880 --> 01:57:42,360
Speaker 4: like there's a lot that goes into these shows. This

2120
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:45,200
Speaker 4: is not just like it's like, oh, you got to

2121
01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:46,880
Speaker 4: show greenlit, you go out and make it. This is

2122
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:51,000
Speaker 4: years and years of like grinding in what's called the

2123
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:54,720
Speaker 4: development process. You take a show concept and you develop

2124
01:57:54,800 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 4: a deck on it, and you pitch it to various

2125
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:01,600
Speaker 4: networks and and so I like, it's we got to

2126
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:03,920
Speaker 4: give credit to the people who did that work. It's

2127
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:05,320
Speaker 4: the hardest part of making TV.

2128
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 2: Like going way back would be the constant attention of

2129
01:58:11,400 --> 01:58:12,840
Speaker 2: Ben Ford and Mark Pierce.

2130
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:16,480
Speaker 4: Exactly ben Ford, Mark Pierce, Bridger Pierce, Chris Richardson and

2131
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:19,240
Speaker 4: all the people over at Warm Springs who really like

2132
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:24,200
Speaker 4: shepherded this project from concept to like something that actually

2133
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:25,520
Speaker 4: has funding and you're gonna go.

2134
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 2: Out And on my end, it was my wife Katie. Yeah,

2135
01:58:28,480 --> 01:58:31,160
Speaker 2: that's right, drove it on my end for a long time.

2136
01:58:31,320 --> 01:58:34,040
Speaker 4: So I also I need to thak because she's the

2137
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:34,800
Speaker 4: one that called me.

2138
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:38,960
Speaker 2: I's like, God, don't call.

2139
01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:44,840
Speaker 4: You know. So you have this tremendous group of people

2140
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:47,680
Speaker 4: here that we got to partner with and work with

2141
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:49,400
Speaker 4: and like the part that we do, like that's the

2142
01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 4: that's the fun part. And got on the field and

2143
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:54,000
Speaker 4: hang out and go to the cabin and you know,

2144
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:56,360
Speaker 4: get to do all the fun stuff fly around on

2145
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:00,400
Speaker 4: you know, glaciers and and all that. But on the

2146
01:59:00,440 --> 01:59:03,440
Speaker 4: other side, when we talk about the network, like, what

2147
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 4: was really great about this experience in this show is

2148
01:59:06,080 --> 01:59:08,480
Speaker 4: like we had a tremendous team at the network too.

2149
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:13,080
Speaker 4: I've had a lot of network experiences. It often is

2150
01:59:13,320 --> 01:59:15,680
Speaker 4: the case that you're getting network notes that are like,

2151
01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:18,160
Speaker 4: don't like this, don't like this, don't like this. It

2152
01:59:18,200 --> 01:59:24,400
Speaker 4: don't like provide any constructive path forward. What's really unique

2153
01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 4: here is working with like Max Mcaliffe, Mary Donahue, Alexander Hicks,

2154
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:38,080
Speaker 4: Eli Lair. Their notes are their notes are very, very

2155
01:59:38,120 --> 01:59:42,200
Speaker 4: pointed and very constructive, and it's a huge part of

2156
01:59:42,240 --> 01:59:45,800
Speaker 4: what has made this show successful. So I've never worked

2157
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,720
Speaker 4: for this network before, you know, and instead of coming

2158
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:51,600
Speaker 4: in and having to like just operate in the blind

2159
01:59:51,640 --> 01:59:55,280
Speaker 4: and figure things out, this is like incredibly you know

2160
01:59:55,640 --> 02:00:01,280
Speaker 4: response of an adept team that's got a blueprint for

2161
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:04,160
Speaker 4: how you make these you know, these shows. And it

2162
02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:07,760
Speaker 4: was a real, like real learning experience for me telling

2163
02:00:08,120 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 4: these kinds of narratives.

2164
02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:10,320
Speaker 2: That's great, man.

2165
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:13,240
Speaker 4: So it was all around. It's just been It's been

2166
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:17,080
Speaker 4: an awesome experience. I hope we get renewed and you

2167
02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:17,760
Speaker 4: can do it again.

2168
02:00:20,640 --> 02:00:24,120
Speaker 2: It comes out the show's hunting History comes out on

2169
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:29,600
Speaker 2: History Channel ten pm Eastern. I could do the math

2170
02:00:29,600 --> 02:00:36,800
Speaker 2: all across the whole country, nine Central, What happens eight

2171
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:39,720
Speaker 2: miles Mountain, seven dollars.

2172
02:00:43,880 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 4: Ten o'clock in the Lost Colony.

2173
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:49,160
Speaker 2: Five or something like that. You figured it out, You'll

2174
02:00:49,160 --> 02:00:52,440
Speaker 2: figured it out Alaska on the History Channel, and it

2175
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:54,880
Speaker 2: follows the show. That was funny is a lot of

2176
02:00:55,040 --> 02:00:57,000
Speaker 2: most people we talked to when we're working on our

2177
02:00:57,040 --> 02:01:01,040
Speaker 2: show and we talked about working with History Channel, they

2178
02:01:01,080 --> 02:01:03,520
Speaker 2: bring up how they can't. They don't like to miss

2179
02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:06,800
Speaker 2: Curse of Oak Island. So it's right after curseve oak

2180
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:09,840
Speaker 2: Island on his channel premiere January twenty eight. Then you

2181
02:01:09,880 --> 02:01:10,880
Speaker 2: can watch for eight weeks.

2182
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:14,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, next year we'll make eight more.

2183
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:16,560
Speaker 2: You'll watch the whole thing and never get to ce Mo.

2184
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:19,200
Speaker 2: So you have to watch here if you want to

2185
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,320
Speaker 2: see Mo, check him out. I trust that Moe was there.

2186
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:26,800
Speaker 4: It's actually technically not true. I'm really I'm really bothered

2187
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 4: by one shot in uh Alaska Triangle where I'm like

2188
02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:33,840
Speaker 4: I'm in this sweatshirt. I'm trying to I don't know

2189
02:01:33,880 --> 02:01:35,640
Speaker 4: if I can get over my headphones, so I'm trying

2190
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:38,960
Speaker 4: to trying to hide in the back of the helicopter

2191
02:01:39,200 --> 02:01:41,520
Speaker 4: like this as we're had a cameo.

2192
02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool.

2193
02:01:42,920 --> 02:01:44,920
Speaker 4: And you can see. Man, it's just like, who is that.

2194
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,560
Speaker 4: There's a weird dude in the helicopter.

2195
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 2: Your lives are at risk. There's a skyjacker. He's gonna joke.

2196
02:01:57,320 --> 02:01:59,000
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for tuning in man, and I hope you

2197
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:00,880
Speaker 2: check out the show, and I hope you have as

2198
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,520
Speaker 2: much fun watching as we had putting it together. Thank

2199
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:05,200
Speaker 2: you and thanks, thank you,