1 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Yuess what, well, what's that mango? Do you 3 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: know that people in medieval England used to pay their 4 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: rent with eels? I don't know why anyone would want 5 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: multiple eels, much less accept them as a form of payment. 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: What is this all about? 7 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: Well, this was back before coins were widely available, when 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: most people just settle their debts with in kind payments. 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: They usually traded things like eggs or corn or ale, 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: but one of the most highly prized tender was smoked eels, 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and the long snakelike fish was super plentiful in British 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: rivers back then, so for a stretch of about five 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: hundred years they were caught and traded as makeshift currency, 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: and in fact, by the end of the eleventh century, 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: more than half a million eels were being paid as 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: rent in England each year, specifically and rent so that 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: you get the first. 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: Of the month and you could just send your landlord 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 3: a sack of dead eels and they wouldn't kick you 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: out of your place. 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: More than that, they would be thrilled about it, because 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: eels were a tasty and nutritious food source, and they 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: were especially nice to have on hand during Lent, which 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: is when practicing Catholics would abstained from eating meat. But 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: if a landlord didn't want to eat all of their earnings, 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: they could always just use the eels to pay their 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: own debts instead, and the fish were desirable enough that 28 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: just about anyone would accept them as payment. 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 3: I do imagine the turnaround time has to be pretty 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: quick on these, right, Like, I'm not sure what the 31 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 3: shelf life is for eel. 32 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: I mean that is true, but in most cases the 33 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: fish would be salted and smoked and dried so that 34 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: they could be swapped around and stored more easily, and 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: for added portability, they were typically tied together into bundles 36 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: of sticks or twenty five eels apiece. 37 00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 3: You know, this really does feel like one of those 38 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: that's just too weird to be true. 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Gabe showed me all kinds of written records 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: to back it up. For example, one of the highest 41 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: eel rents that we know came from the village of 42 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: Harmston in Lincolnshire, and according to the town ledger, the 43 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: residents owed the Earl Hugh of Chester seventy five thousand 44 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: eels per year for use of his land. 45 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: It's a lot of eels where I don't know, maybe not, 46 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: I don't really have a reference point. 47 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like one eel is too many eels 48 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: to me. But I love the idea of briefcases full 49 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: of eels that you're just dropping on your landlord store. 50 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: You know, we were trying to figure out the conversion 51 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: rate for something like this, like how much was a 52 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: single eel or a stick of eels worth? There is 53 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: no way to know for certain, but the lead historian 54 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: on eel rents his name is doctor John Wyatt Greenley. 55 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: He came up with a pretty solid guests and based 56 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: on the numbers found in medieval ledgers, he worked out 57 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: that a single eel would be worth about forty three 58 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: to eighty five cents in today's money. So if the 59 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: upper end of that range, then the residents of Harmston 60 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 1: were paying about sixty three grand in eel rent per year, 61 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: which isn't too bad for an entire village. 62 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: I guess, I guess until you think about all the 63 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 3: work that had to go into harvesting and curing seventy 64 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 3: five thousand eels, Like that's a lot of extra labor 65 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: on top of your actual day job. 66 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's kind of amazing the system held out 67 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: as long as it did. Eel rents remained commonplace until 68 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century or so. But it wasn't the hassle 69 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: of sourcing them that finally killed the practice. It was 70 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: the bubonic plague. So after England's population was decimated in 71 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: the mid thirteen hundreds, much of the empty farmland was 72 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: repurposed for raising livestock, and once red meat became more 73 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: widely available, the demand for eels fell and disappeared almost 74 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: completely by the year fifteen hundred. But that's just the 75 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: first of nine strange stories we're sharing today, all plucked 76 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: from the debt ledgers of history. Let's dive in. 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 78 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 79 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 3: friend Mangesh Ticketter. And on the other side of that 80 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: soundproof glass wearing a green visor. 81 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: And this is a beautiful green visor. 82 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 3: Cranking away on an antique adding machine. That's our friend 83 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 3: and producer Dylan Fagan. Now I don't know what kinds 84 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: of numbers he's crunching over there, but he is crunching 85 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: them up fast. 86 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Mega, moving so fast. I think he's just pushing random buttons. 87 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 3: I think so, but he looks like he knows what 88 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 3: he's doing. But all right, Well, since today's episode is 89 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 3: all about the history of debt, I thought it'd be 90 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: fun to trace the concept back to its source and 91 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: find out where and when the first debt was actually 92 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: racked up. 93 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: I love it, so did you figure it out? 94 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: I did not. 95 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: So it turns out there's just no way to pinpoint 96 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: it with any real degree of accuracy. And that's because 97 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: debt is as old as history itself. So as soon 98 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 3: as humans began putting pen to paper or wedge to tablet, like, 99 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: we started keeping track of things like storehouse inventories or 100 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: bills of sale private loans. Even in fact, the earliest 101 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: known examples of writing come from Mesopotamia. This was about 102 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 3: five thousand years ago, and they aren't works of poetry 103 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 3: or fiction. 104 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 2: They're actually bookkeeping. 105 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: Which is not nearly as romantic as it feels like it. 106 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: H It doesn't. 107 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 3: But you know, there is surprisingly a sweet side to this, 108 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 3: because these tablets didn't just log the accumulation of debts. 109 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: They also tracked its cancelation. So there's evidence of wide 110 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: scale debt cancelations in Mesopotamia as far back as twenty 111 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: four hundred BCE, and the practice continued there periodically for 112 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: about a thousand years. 113 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: So what kind of debt was being canceled? Like, is 114 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: this private debt? Is it national debt? 115 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: Well, actually, the concept of national debt or public debt 116 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: is is really much more of a modern invention than 117 00:05:58,440 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 3: you might think. 118 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: So in the ancient. 119 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: World, all debt was private debt and this is how 120 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: it worked. So in agrarian societies, the state would provide 121 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 3: the peasantry with farmland, tools, livestock, and of course water 122 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: for irrigation, and at harvest time a portion of the 123 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: food they produced would be paid to the state as rent. Unfortunately, 124 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: when a harvest was worse than expected, the peasants had 125 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: to secure private loans from the upper class in order 126 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 3: to feed themselves and pay the state what they owed, 127 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 3: which of course led to an accumulation of debt, and 128 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: if the borrower wasn't able to pay it off in time, 129 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: then either they or their family members would be enslaved 130 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 3: by their creditors. Now, obviously this wasn't a great system, 131 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: because over time, more and more people were becoming slaves 132 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: to their fellow citizens. 133 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is not a great recipe for a healthy society. 134 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: Not so much. 135 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: And that's why it became customary for the state to 136 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 3: wipe the slate clean every few years. This typically happened 137 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 3: during a big public festival in the springtime. The sitting 138 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 3: sovereign would proclaim that everyone's debt was erased, and any 139 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 3: peasants who had been enslaved for unpaid bills were restored 140 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: their full citizenship. 141 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing, But it sounds like this was a 142 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: kind of a cyclical process, right, so after a few 143 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: more lean harvests, a peasant might find themselves right back 144 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: in bondage again. 145 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 146 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: And it's clear from that on again, off again approach 147 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 3: that the rulers of Mesopotamia didn't oppose the practice on 148 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: moral grounds. The cancelations were actually away for them to 149 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: keep the peace and preserve the status quote, you know, 150 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: so that society wouldn't break down altogether. And on that count, 151 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 3: the debt cancelation system actually worked remarkably well, so well 152 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: in fact, that it was eventually adopted by neighboring kingdoms, 153 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: so you're thinking about places like Assyria, Egypt, Jerusalem, and 154 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: Debt cancelation even became a core component of the Jewish 155 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: faith as well as early Christianity. For instance, the Book 156 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: of Leviticus calls on Christians to hold a quote year 157 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: of jubilee every half century. 158 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 4: Now. 159 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 3: This occasion is meant to correct any economic inequalities that 160 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: may have arisen over the years, wiping out long standing debts. 161 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: And offering families a fresh dart. 162 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: It's wild to think that was like such a common 163 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: practice in the ancient world, because it it feels like 164 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,119 Speaker 1: such a difficult thing to push through today, like whenever 165 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: we talk about canceling college loans or things like that, 166 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: there's often so much political pushback. 167 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure, And I haven't seen on anybody's 168 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: calendar a year of jubilee coming up. But it actually 169 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: might be the perfect time to try it again, because 170 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: according to a papal bull instituted by the late Pope Francis, 171 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 3: the next jubilee year should. 172 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: Be twenty twenty five, which is right now. 173 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: I feel like my bank must have missed the memo 174 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: on this, but I am glad you brought up debt 175 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: forgiveness because there's at least one person who's taking the 176 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: Jubilee year to heart, and that is Welsh actor Michael Sheen. 177 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: I did not see that one coming. 178 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: So he's the guy who plays Tony Blair and all 179 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 3: those British docu dramas, right. 180 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: Uh huh. And he's also played the broadcaster David Frost 181 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: a few times too. But he's not keeping all that 182 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: Blair Frost money to himself because earlier this year she 183 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: used his earnings to write off the debt of nearly 184 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: nine hundred people in his hometown of Port Talbot, Wales. 185 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: And this is actually a story that our good friend 186 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: Simon Brewe told me about. But the decline of the 187 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: city's steel industry had left many residents struggling for years, 188 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, just to make ends meet, and after learning 189 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: that many of his former neighbors were deep in debt 190 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: as a result of this, Sheen decided to lend a 191 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: hand by buying up a million pounds of their collective debt, 192 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: which he then canceled. 193 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 3: So the million pounds actually came out of his own pocket. Yeah, 194 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: but he definitely used his own money. That said, he 195 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: didn't actually have to pay the full million, because by 196 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 3: the time she stepped in, many of the residents' debt 197 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: had been bundled together by creditors and sold off to 198 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 3: debt buying companies, and this often happens at the lower price. 199 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 3: So after a lengthy process, the actor was able to 200 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 3: set up his own debt buying company, and then he 201 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: acquired Port Talbot's debt for one tenth of its actual value. 202 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 3: All right, so he paid one hundred thousand pounds for 203 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: a million pounds worth of debt. 204 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: How does that actually work? 205 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: So I yues. The other debt buying companies didn't think 206 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: there was much of a chance of anyone actually collecting 207 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: on that debt, so they were willing to sell the 208 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: rights for a much smaller lump sum. And in most cases, 209 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: the residents would have still been on the hook for 210 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: the full amount they owed, but thanks to Sheen's generosity, 211 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: now they don't have to pay back a single pound. 212 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: That is pretty amazing. 213 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: That's really sweet. And if any listeners want to learn 214 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: more about Sheen's experience and his motivations for doing this 215 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: whole thing, Channel four produced a documentary chronicling the whole campaign. 216 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: It is called Michael Sheen's Secret Million pound Giveaway, and 217 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: the show makes the case for reforming the UK's credit 218 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: industries so low income families won't have to resort to 219 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: high interest payday loans. 220 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 3: All right, Well, jumping back a bit further in time, 221 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: the next fact is about a guy who also paid 222 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: off somebody else's hefty debts, but in this case the 223 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: tab belonged to the US government. So this was back 224 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: in seventeen ninety five, about twelve years after the American Revolution, 225 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: and despite Alexander Hamilton's best effort, the nation was struggling 226 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: to pay off loans that it had taken from European 227 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: allies during the war. Now, the debt totaled over two 228 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 3: million dollars, which is more than fifty one and a 229 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 3: half million dollars in today's money. And even though we 230 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: owed all that money, the US was actually trying to 231 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: negotiate new loans along the way, which wasn't going over 232 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 3: that well with everybody in Europe. But that's where a 233 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: man named James Swan came in. So in seventeen ninety five, 234 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 3: the Scottish American banker used his own money to privately 235 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 3: assume the entire two million dollar debt that we owed 236 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: the French. This was hailed by many as a patriotic gesture, 237 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: and Swan was indeed a patriot. He actually took part 238 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 3: in the Boston Tea Party, was wounded not once but 239 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 3: twice at the Battle of Bunker Hill. But taking over 240 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: the national debt wasn't a completely selfless act on his part. 241 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 3: In fact, he actually managed to turn a tidy profit 242 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: from it. 243 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: So he didn't go full Michael Sheen and cancel everyone's dead. 244 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: No, no, no, he definitely didn't do that. 245 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: Instead, Swan resold America's debts at a profit to domestic 246 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: private investors. This meant that the US still had to 247 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: pay back the money eventually, but at least we didn't 248 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 3: owe it to foreign governments, and so Swan's payoff helped 249 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: the young nations say face on the world stage, also 250 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: convinced other countries that it was safe to keep lending 251 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 3: the US money. 252 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible, And it's strange to think about a 253 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: banker bailing out the US government instead of the other 254 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: way around, right, right, right, Yeah, it's not typically the 255 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: way that goes. But all right, we've got five more 256 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: debt ridden stories left to share, but first let's take 257 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where 258 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: we're exploring the lighter side of one of humanity's first 259 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: and worst inventions, financial debt. Now, before the break, will 260 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned that James Swan had participated in the Boston 261 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: Tea party raid switch, if you'll recall, didn't result in 262 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: any debts or serious injuries, But that doesn't mean there 263 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: weren't victims. So the British tea merchants whose ships were 264 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: raided lost a fortune in merchandise, and amazingly, one of 265 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: those companies, Davison Newman, is still trying to recoup with 266 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: losses today. 267 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: And like, who are. 268 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: They trying to recoup this from? Like are they shaking 269 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: down the partygoer's descendants or what? 270 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: No shakedowns, but they are accepting donations. So back in 271 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy four, sixteen chests of tea belonging to the 272 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: Davison Newman company were chucked into the water during the 273 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: Boston Tea Party and while the company's founders petitioned King 274 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: George to reimburse them for its value, which was four 275 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty British pounds. The Crown actually declined to 276 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: pay that. They ended up losing more tea in other raids, 277 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: and appeals for those claims were also rejected. And that's 278 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: how it went on for seven generations of the company 279 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: until finally, in nineteen sixty one, the residents of Jackson County, Oregon, 280 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: decided to make amends. 281 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: Wait, Oregon. 282 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: Last time I checked, it was nowhere near Boston. So 283 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: what did they have to do with the Boston Tea Party? 284 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: Nothing? Apparently it still was weighing on their consciences. This 285 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: woman named missus Burt Free. In nineteen sixty one, she 286 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: spearheaded a local campaign to pay back her county's fair 287 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: share of the company's losses. After adjusting for inflation, they 288 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: determined that the long lost shipment was worth just under 289 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, So they divided that number by the 290 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: then current population of the United States and calculated the 291 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: portionate share owed by residents of Jackson County, which was 292 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: like what five dollars or a dollar ninety six? So 293 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: the money was contributed by seventeen residents and was delivered 294 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: as a check along with the letter of explanation from 295 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: the mayor of the largest city in Jackson County. 296 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: That is such a ridiculous amount. 297 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: It actually reminds me of the scene from The Jerk 298 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: where Steve Martin's having to sign the checks for the 299 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: class action lawsuit her life four dollars and twelve cents 300 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: or whatever it was. But it is such a ridiculous amount, 301 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: like it almost feels like an insult. But do we 302 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: know what Davison Newman thought of all this? 303 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: Well, they apparently appreciated the gesture because a spokesman accepted 304 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: the check in person. His name was Leslie Simons, and 305 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: he said the company hoped this would be the first 306 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: of many SUSH payments. The last yeah quote, the government 307 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: never gave us a peep. Bostonians simply smiled. But Jackson County, 308 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: oh they are fine folk. Now we are waiting to 309 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: hear from the rest of Oregon's counties and from the 310 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: other forty nine states, right right, right? 311 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: So did actually anything come from all the waiting? 312 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: Nope, the company hasn't received another direct payment from the public, 313 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't think they're really expecting to 314 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: write oh. 315 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 3: Wow, which makes that bug ninety from Oregon just so 316 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 3: much sweeter. 317 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: That's pretty wild, all right. 318 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: Okay, speaking of long standing debts, did you know that 319 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: Finland is the only country to fully pay back its debts. 320 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: From World War One? Did you know that? Did you 321 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: have your listen? 322 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 3: Really, most of your borrowed money from the US during 323 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 3: the war, but by the time the first payments came 324 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: due in the nineteen twenties, most of them were actually 325 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: still too cash strapped to afford it. Now, this situation 326 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: only worsened with the onset of the Great Depression. So finally, 327 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty one, President Hoover granted a moratorium on 328 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: the collection of war debt. This postponement was only meant 329 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: to last a year, but European borrowers treated it like 330 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: a permanent pardon, so much so that when the repayments 331 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: were scheduled to resume in nineteen thirty three, only a 332 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: single country cut the US. 333 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: A check, and that was, of course Finland. 334 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: Now, the country continued to make regular payments until nineteen 335 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 3: seventy six, when its loan was paid in full, and 336 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 3: that was right on schedule. 337 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's cool that they paid us back, 338 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: But did Finland just not know that everyone else had 339 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: stopped paying or what. 340 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. 341 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 3: But you know, they didn't do it by accident or 342 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 3: even out of a sense of moral obligation. Instead, it 343 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: was actually part of an effort to improve Finland's reputation. 344 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: As a reliable debtor. 345 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: Now the country had earned a bad reputation in the 346 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty after borrowing a large sum of gold from France, 347 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 3: only to pay it back with devalued Finnish currency. Now, 348 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 3: the French wound up losing money on the deal, and 349 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 3: the international markets took notice, so Finland's foreign ministry actually 350 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: had to go into damage control here. Now they knew 351 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 3: that other European countries had no intention of resuming payments, 352 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 3: and since Finland's debt to the US was a fairly 353 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: small percentage of its annual GDP, they decided it was 354 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 3: a good idea to just go ahead and pay up 355 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 3: in the hopes of scoring some good press. 356 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: And did it work. 357 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: It actually worked really, really well, So between nineteen thirty 358 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 3: three and nineteen thirty six, nearly three thousand stories were 359 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: published in American newspapers, all of them praising Finland for 360 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: paying its due when no one else would So one 361 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 3: of my favorites is this nineteen thirty five piece from 362 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: the Indianapolis Times, and it says, quote, on December fifteenth, 363 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 3: Finland will pay her semi annual war debt installment of 364 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 3: about a quarter of a million dollars. It's sure nice 365 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 3: to think one nation will drop a remembrance in the 366 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: lean old sock this year. Now on our best finish, 367 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 3: we wish for a merry Christmas housekoo yalua. 368 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: I said it just right, Ma, didn't I love it? 369 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Nailed it? 370 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: You didn't know I spoke Finnish. 371 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: I did not know that. But I'm guessing after that 372 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: Finland could borrow money from whoever they wanted, right. 373 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: I mean pretty much. The pr campaign works so well 374 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 3: that a fact about Finland's reliability was written into American textbooks, 375 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: and decades later, many people still refer to Finland as 376 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: the country that pays its debts. 377 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: So the Finish are basically the Lanisters of the EU, 378 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: that's right. 379 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think they'll get along quite so 380 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: well with their siblings, but otherwise sure. 381 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: Well, here's another story of a debt repayment, or at 382 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: least a partial one. So do you remember the early 383 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: nineties when Willie Nelson owed the IRS like tens of 384 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: millions of dollars in unpaid taxes. 385 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: And they I think they like raided his house for 386 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 3: something too, right, Yeah, it was worse than that. 387 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: So the IRS actually seized Nelson's property in six different 388 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: states on the same day, and the federal agents who 389 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: raided his primary home in Austin, Texas also stock thousands 390 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: of his personal belongings, including instruments, master recordings, studio equipment, 391 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: and the idea was to sell the items at auction 392 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: to help settle the singer's enormous tax bill, but things 393 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: didn't quite go as planned. So Willie had seen the 394 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: writing on the wall ahead of the raid and made 395 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: sure he was away golfing in Hawaii when the IRS 396 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: agents arrived. 397 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 3: Wait, Willie Nelson played golf. I didn't know that. That's 398 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: almost episode. This episode needs to go in a different 399 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: direction now. 400 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 401 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: Anyway, when he was golfing, he also had his daughter 402 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: remove his favorite guitar from his Texas home and chip 403 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: it to him and Maui for safekeeping. And at the 404 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: time he told the press, as long as I got 405 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: my guitar, I'll be fine. But he didn't know how 406 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: right he was, because not only did he get to 407 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: keep his beloved guitar, he also got back most of 408 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: his other stuff. The IRS held several public auctions in 409 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: Texas to sell off his property, but they didn't make 410 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: nearly as much money as expected because most Texans were 411 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: fused to bid out of respect for Willie Nelson, and 412 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: although his branch did sell, the bidder turned out to 413 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: be a fan who gave the property right back to Willie, 414 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: which I'm sure the IRS just love. 415 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 2: To see, right, Yeah, not so much. 416 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: But the agents realized the auctions were getting them nowhere, 417 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: so they sold off his remaining items as a lot 418 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: price that just seven thousand dollars. This meant that the 419 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: bulk of the debt was still unpaid, so in nineteen 420 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: ninety one, the IRS worked out an unusual deal. Nelson 421 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: agreed to record a two disc compilation album, with part 422 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: of the proceeds going toward what he still owed, and 423 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: to keep recording costs as low as possible, he decided 424 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: to record stripped down acoustic versions of some of his 425 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: pre existing songs, plus a few new ones. The album 426 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: was called Quote the Irs Tapes, Who Will buy My 427 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: Memories question Mark, and it featured titles like remember the 428 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: Good Times and what can You Do to Me Now? 429 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: Wow? Okay. 430 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: It was released in December of nineteen ninety two and 431 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: eventually chipped away at about three point six million dollars 432 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: of Willie's tax debt, which you know, still wasn't anywhere 433 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: close to what he owed. His full tab was closer 434 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: to thirty two million dollars after taxes and penalties. But 435 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: I think the IRS was sick of chasing him by 436 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: that point, because after he made a few more payments, 437 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: the agency retired his remaining debt in nineteen ninety three. 438 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: I mean, Willie Nelson's great in all, but I'm not 439 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: sure how fair this whole thing feels like you don't 440 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 3: hear about the IRS retiring. 441 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 2: The debt of many non Grammy winners. 442 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Willy obviously knew he'd gone off light, because 443 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: two years later, in an interview with Rolling Stone, he said, 444 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: quote mentally, it. 445 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: Was a breeze. 446 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: They didn't bother me. They didn't come out and confiscate 447 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: anything other than that first day, and they didn't show 448 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: up at every gig and demand money. I appreciated that 449 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: and then we teamed up and put out a record. 450 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: It's nice to know there were no hard feelings in 451 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: the end. All right, Well, here's a story about one 452 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 3: of the most unjust and contentious debt repayments of all time. Ango, oh, 453 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 3: I'm excited to it's it's pretty much a doozy. So 454 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 3: I'm sure you're aware of that Haiti among the poorest 455 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 3: nations in the world. But did you know that's partly 456 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: because it was forced to pay an exorbitant independence debt 457 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 3: And this was to France. 458 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: So I vaguely remember this. I think the Times did 459 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: a piece on this a while back, but it had 460 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: to do with like the revolution. 461 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 2: Right sort of. 462 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: So back in eighteen oh four, the enslaved Haitians defeated 463 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: their French oppressors and claimed independence. But two decades later, 464 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: France came back with a fleet of warships and demanded 465 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 3: that Haiti pay one hundred and fifty million francs to 466 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: officially purchase the territory. Now, they basically forced Haitians to 467 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: choose between crippling debt or another war, and the price 468 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 3: the French king demanded made it crystal clear that he 469 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 3: was just doing this out of pure racist spite. 470 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 4: You know. 471 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 3: So Haiti's only about ten thousand square miles, which is 472 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 3: roughly the size of the state of Maryland. Yet France 473 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: wanted ten times the amount it had charged the US 474 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 3: for the entire Louisiana purchase, which if you remember, pretty 475 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: much doubled the size of the US at that point. 476 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: That's really horrible. So how did the Haitians respet onto this? 477 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: I mean, they didn't really have much of a choice here, 478 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 3: so they were still finding their footing as an independent nation, 479 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 3: didn't have the resources to fight a second revolution. But 480 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 3: that also meant the country couldn't afford to pay France's 481 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 3: ridiculous price upfront. So to add insult to injury, Haiti 482 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: wound up taking out loans with these sky high interest 483 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 3: rates from of course, a French bank, and it took 484 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 3: Haiti one hundred and twenty two years to pay off 485 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 3: the debt, which at final tally was somewhere between twenty 486 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 3: and thirty billion dollars in today's money, so an enormous 487 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: summer money. 488 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: It is incredible and horrible. Well, here is a bizarre 489 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: one I just heard about in twenty fourteen, A whole 490 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: mountain of ancient Roman debt was discovered during the construction 491 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: of a Bloomberg office building in London. More than four 492 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: hundred wooden writing tablets were found at the dig site, 493 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: and most of them turned out to be contracts and 494 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: loan notes from the first century CE to. 495 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: Like two thousand year old. IOUs. 496 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: I'm actually surprised the wood was even lessible after all 497 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: that time. 498 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: You know that you said they were underground. 499 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. It took archaeologists about two years to translate the 500 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: eighty eight best preserved of these tablets. The slow process 501 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: was partly because the text was written in Latin and 502 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: also incursive, but also because each word had been scratched 503 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: into a wax coated wood with an iron stylist. None 504 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: of this made for the neatest penmanship. But what is 505 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: interesting is that debt records can tell you a lot 506 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: about the people who made them. So for instance, apparently 507 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: Titus of London got duped into lending money to some 508 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: shady characters, and now he is the laughingstock of the marketplace. 509 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 1: So is that from one of those tablets. But by 510 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: the way, I do love that you're spreading first century 511 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: gossip here. I mean, it's not gossip. It is all 512 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: there in wax and wood. It was plain his day. 513 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 3: But since you introduced this to Eel Rents and the 514 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 3: good people of Jackson County, I think you're going to 515 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: win today's trophy. 516 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: Now. 517 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: The only thing is I don't have it with me, 518 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: So if you don't mind, can I can I give 519 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: this to you later? Can I just owe you on 520 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: this one? 521 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? Let's say six and a quarter interest the quarterly 522 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: sire Pretty good? Right? Well, that is it for today's episode. 523 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for the trophy. We'll be back next week 524 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: with another brand new episode. In the meantime, if you 525 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: enjoy the show, subscribe on your favorite podcast stapp leave 526 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: us a five star rating and interview, and give us 527 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: a call if you have a question or just want 528 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: to say hi. The number is three zero two four 529 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: oh five five nine two five. And actually I just 530 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: want to play you a message we got because it 531 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: really made me smile. Hi. 532 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 4: This is Christina, the Curator of Fun here in Spokane, Washington. 533 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: I am the owner of the friendliest store in Spokane, 534 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 4: the Plucky Deck. So I am calling because I am 535 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 4: a big fan of part time Genius. I have been 536 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 4: listening to you guys for over five years. I really 537 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 4: do believe it's right when you first began, and each 538 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 4: time you come back into my feed, I get so 539 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 4: so excited. I love your show. Keep up the good work, 540 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 4: and if I can ever be of service, just let 541 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 4: me know. 542 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 3: All right, I think Christina Win's best job title the 543 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: curator of Fun at the Plucky Duck. 544 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no topping that. 545 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: I know. Every town should have a curator of fun. 546 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: So thank you so much Christina for calling in. We 547 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: love hearing from you all, so please keep them coming. 548 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: And from Dylan Gade, Mary, Will and myself, thank you 549 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production 550 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will 551 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: Pearson and me Mongashtikler and research by our good pal 552 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by 553 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klan. The 554 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and 555 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gate trustee 556 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: Dara Potts and Viney Shore. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope 557 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 558 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.