Speaker 1: Hello, Brian Goldsmith. Hi, Katie Kirk. Well, I know you
Speaker 1: are very, very excited about our I can't even contain myself. Seriously,
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking to Stan Greenberg. Why don't
Speaker 1: you give a quick bio of stand for our listeners. Brian, Well,
Speaker 1: he's definitely in the Polster Hall of Fame, which is
Speaker 1: visited slightly less frequently than the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: Who that sounds like a fun saturday, you know for
Speaker 1: some of us he was. He was the top polster
Speaker 1: for President Bill Clinton, Al Gore in two thousand, Tony
Speaker 1: Blair in the u K. Nelson Mandela Israeli Prime Minister
Speaker 1: Edhud Barack. He's really had an amazing career, both as
Speaker 1: an academic and as a political strategist, and he has
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time recently talking to one time
Speaker 1: Democrats and Obama supporters who switched to back Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: Would you say he's a wise man who says only
Speaker 1: fools Russian? But Brian can't help alright, I'm getting a
Speaker 1: little jealous. Actually, I think he's a fascinating guy and
Speaker 1: it was fun to talk to him about everything what
Speaker 1: happened in the two thousand and sixteen election, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: how people are feeling about Donald Trump these days, specifically
Speaker 1: people in Macomb County in Michigan. He really has his
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of people who are white working
Speaker 1: class voters and how they're feeling about Donald Trump. Today.
Speaker 1: We're also going to hear from a voter in Chicago,
Speaker 1: a lifelong Democrat who supported Obama who switched to Donald
Speaker 1: Trump last year. Find out what she thinks about how
Speaker 1: he's doing in office. And uh, we'll get to that
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But first here Stan Greenberg. Stan Greenberg,
Speaker 1: it is such a thrill to have you on our podcast,
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you my friend Brian Goldsmith
Speaker 1: is completely gegeging out right now. Why Brian, Because if
Speaker 1: you care about politics and polling, you know Stan is
Speaker 1: a bit of an icon in those worlds. He's probably
Speaker 1: the most important progressive poster ever and he has some
Speaker 1: really interesting stuff to say about the voters who supported
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. So I'm really excited about this conversation. But
Speaker 1: stand before I'm with you, well, but before we talk
Speaker 1: about this latest focus group that you did in Macomb County,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask you quickly Stan, you have
Speaker 1: a very impressive CV, I must say, for somebody who
Speaker 1: is in this line of work, can you just tell
Speaker 1: us briefly kind of how you got here. Well, it
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't part of any plan. And I always thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I was going to be a professor. I
Speaker 1: got my PhD. I began teaching very early at you know,
Speaker 1: at Yale. You know, I was very active politically, but
Speaker 1: my academic life was separate, um, you know, from my
Speaker 1: you know, political you know work. So I began studying
Speaker 1: what was happening in poor neighborhoods and working people, you know,
Speaker 1: at at an early end, at early point. And gerally
Speaker 1: broke through in politics with the study you did in
Speaker 1: of the so called Reagan Democrats. I mean, some people
Speaker 1: have given you credit for inventing that term, but these
Speaker 1: were people who historically had voted for Jack Kennedy, for
Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson, even for Jimmy Carter, and they broke for
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan. And you were sent there to investigate why
Speaker 1: and how that happened. And can you tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about what you learned then? In I was
Speaker 1: while I was still teaching a Gale Um, I was
Speaker 1: asked by the U a W and the Michigan Democratic
Speaker 1: Party try to understand the Reagan Democrats starting in McComb County,
Speaker 1: and McComb County was a one of the most democratic,
Speaker 1: unionized Catholic counties that have voted overwhelmingly for John Kennedy UM,
Speaker 1: but cast a very big vote for Ronald Reagan and
Speaker 1: really shattered UM for the North. A lot of illusions
Speaker 1: UM about where the party stand and how they'll be
Speaker 1: shaped in the future and stand in a way, was
Speaker 1: this election like deja vu all over again? Yeah, I wrote,
Speaker 1: I wrote. I wrote a piece after you know, you know,
Speaker 1: Obama's election in which I basically said, goodbye Macomb County,
Speaker 1: you know, because we have this first African American president
Speaker 1: who carried McComb County. And so if that was true,
Speaker 1: it's it's obviously time to move on. Particularly if you
Speaker 1: look in Oakland County, which was the affluent suburb next door,
Speaker 1: you wish it was an even much bigger majority for
Speaker 1: or Democrats. And so the signal was We've done a
Speaker 1: lot to win, you know, to win these kinds of voters.
Speaker 1: But you know, but if you look at what's happening
Speaker 1: in the most affluent and best educated parts of the country.
Speaker 1: Democrats are building up bigger and bigger majorities. They are
Speaker 1: also becoming more diverse, you know, more you know, immigrant
Speaker 1: and ethnic as well. UM in the future lies there. Well,
Speaker 1: Macomb had a you know, made its point now because
Speaker 1: the margin in MacComb in two thousand and sixteen was
Speaker 1: by far bigger than the statewide margin that Trump won
Speaker 1: UM and part of him winning and this say is
Speaker 1: something really interesting about our politics more broadly, because you
Speaker 1: have working class Macomb County, Michigan, which is historically Democratic,
Speaker 1: and that went for Trump by almost twelve points. And then,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned next story, you've got more upscale, business
Speaker 1: oriented Oakland County, which is historically Republican, and that went
Speaker 1: for Hillary by eight. And so you've had almost this
Speaker 1: flip in our politics where the the kind of the
Speaker 1: auto executives are now voting Democratic and the former line
Speaker 1: workers are voting Republican. Yeah, which is why I decided
Speaker 1: to go back to Macomb and all and to listen
Speaker 1: to these voters. The I decided we can organize for
Speaker 1: you know, groups with all Trump voters, all were working
Speaker 1: class white Trump voters UM in an environment where they
Speaker 1: would be comfortable speaking about their lives, you know, and
Speaker 1: their values and uh and you know, and try to
Speaker 1: make sure they get hurt again. I know. It's very
Speaker 1: clear that they have not second guess that vote. That
Speaker 1: very strong, you know reasons and you know why they
Speaker 1: cast the vote for Donald Trump, you know, but they
Speaker 1: feel under assault. They trust him, you know, but they
Speaker 1: you know, they feel the country, um is so polarized
Speaker 1: that the opponents have not accepted the election results. Give
Speaker 1: him a chance is almost the first thing, you know,
Speaker 1: out of out of their mouth. And they still think
Speaker 1: we're in a period where he's trying to govern and
Speaker 1: they feel like they're under assault in their own families,
Speaker 1: in their own commun reduce their own kids. Well, let's
Speaker 1: drill down a little stand on how you conducted these
Speaker 1: focus groups. You conducted four and all? Is that right? Um?
Speaker 1: I did? I did? And the focus group that worked
Speaker 1: is homogeneous. It's comfortable and you know, and people feel
Speaker 1: revealing dynamics that they would not otherwise do. It's actually
Speaker 1: you know, you know how I started initially when I
Speaker 1: did the Macomb focus herps because I would have only
Speaker 1: union people, only men, you know, working class, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: are non union and and them feeling free to talk
Speaker 1: about it. And at that point that was really that
Speaker 1: was you know, Republicans had been doing focused but this
Speaker 1: was kind of new UM, and so I was kind
Speaker 1: of inventing that methodology, you know at that time. But
Speaker 1: I but I almost had to like go back and
Speaker 1: say start over, you know, the you know, I listened
Speaker 1: to the focus groups and other people are doing and
Speaker 1: they're testing different attacks on Trump. You know what, these
Speaker 1: voters really do want to be heard, and they do
Speaker 1: have reasons why they voted the way they did, and
Speaker 1: so I thought it was really important to listen to them,
Speaker 1: not fight them, you know, let them, you know, express
Speaker 1: their views on why UM, and then we can get
Speaker 1: to the question of, you know, how you can begin
Speaker 1: to win them back. And I'm so curious to hear
Speaker 1: your views on the differences and similarities between these Macomb
Speaker 1: County voters thirty years ago and today, because thirty years
Speaker 1: ago you wrote at length about how they believe Democrats
Speaker 1: were serving special interests. UM. There was a heavy racial
Speaker 1: component to the way that they had felt alienated from
Speaker 1: the National Democratic Party. They felt like it was out
Speaker 1: of step with their cultural values that welfare money was
Speaker 1: going to other people, not them. Were these some of
Speaker 1: the same motivations behind their support for Trump and their
Speaker 1: their feelings of alienation from the establishment or was there
Speaker 1: something different happening? Now? Yeah, I mean something very different.
Speaker 1: First of all, what not what's not different is their
Speaker 1: hostility of the establishment, hostility to be able empower both
Speaker 1: corporate power and political power. They're very much focused on
Speaker 1: political leaders who have sold them out, you know, for
Speaker 1: special interests, cut bad trade deals for America while their jobs,
Speaker 1: you know, we're lost. And so there's a commonality to
Speaker 1: the kind of political economic argument that no one is
Speaker 1: recognizing it, and you know, and fighting that race was
Speaker 1: just so central. Detroit was central. Um the black politicians,
Speaker 1: you know that they talked about who were dominant in
Speaker 1: in politics in Michigan. They would talk about how you know,
Speaker 1: they used their power over with Michigan government in America, uh,
Speaker 1: the U. S government, you know, to make government work
Speaker 1: for them. Affirmative Action was you know, aimed at you know,
Speaker 1: at them. They paid a real prices um they believed
Speaker 1: um for you know, government, you know, policy. And so
Speaker 1: race was absolutely central. So if race was central, then
Speaker 1: what is central now? Stan immigration and Islam. Immigration, as
Speaker 1: you recall, was the number one issue that the first
Speaker 1: issue that Trump ran on, and I was focused on Mexicans,
Speaker 1: and but he was focused on an undocumented and you know,
Speaker 1: not having control your borders, citizens, not having preference over
Speaker 1: non citizens. What he was doing, what Trump was doing
Speaker 1: and saying this was his central issue, and he was
Speaker 1: the only one willing to speak about it, both in
Speaker 1: the primary and in the general. So I think part
Speaker 1: of what you're saying is politics in Macomb County is
Speaker 1: still about us versus them. Them is just no longer
Speaker 1: African Americans. It's it's Muslims, it's immigrants who are documented
Speaker 1: or undocumented. And the Democrats need to come up with
Speaker 1: a message on immigration that resonates with working class people
Speaker 1: who feel like they've lost out. And I want to
Speaker 1: just interject because I read an interesting column stand and
Speaker 1: I think Brian, you and I discussed it that was
Speaker 1: in the New York Times that said the mistake for
Speaker 1: Democrats and liberal Democrats is to say all immigration is good.
Speaker 1: Remember Brian, we talked about that column and that it's
Speaker 1: much more complex and for them not to say we
Speaker 1: have to tackle this issue one way or another. They
Speaker 1: do that at their peril. Do you agree with that stand? Yes,
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree that Democrats have to have to
Speaker 1: have a perspective on immigration because we, in fact our
Speaker 1: advocates of immigration, people are very comfortable with a system
Speaker 1: of comprehensive reform that that's managed and has controls and
Speaker 1: demands responsibility that people get in the queue they learn
Speaker 1: English that in that context, they are willing to support
Speaker 1: immigration that increases immigration. Democrats are going to be for immigration.
Speaker 1: We think it's a better country. We believe in a
Speaker 1: multicultural country. We believe in finding unity out of diversity.
Speaker 1: But as you said, stand not completely unfettered with some
Speaker 1: kind of structure, some kind of responsibility, some kind of
Speaker 1: system in place. Yes, and they, I mean they people
Speaker 1: are very open to reform that increases immigration, but in
Speaker 1: a context where they are rules and we're and we're legal,
Speaker 1: immigrants have precedence over you know, illegal citizens over non citizens. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's a normal thing to want and expect in
Speaker 1: any society. But this gets to a bigger issue about
Speaker 1: the difference between perception and reality, because the reality is
Speaker 1: that immigration and trade two of the real bugaboos for
Speaker 1: the voters you studied have been positives for this country
Speaker 1: if you look at all of the data on income
Speaker 1: and jobs, but they're perceived as very negative by a
Speaker 1: lot of voters who are critical and presidential elections. And
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that struck me about
Speaker 1: the report you wrote is that you know, these voters,
Speaker 1: you said, except Trump's version of the news and the facts.
Speaker 1: And so you know, on the one end, you've got
Speaker 1: real news and real facts, you have fake news and
Speaker 1: fake facts, and it seems like the latter are winning out. Well, look,
Speaker 1: there is a there is a reality um that these
Speaker 1: voters that America's dealing with. I mean, we have, you know, increasingly,
Speaker 1: you know, farm population thirty seven pers in New York
Speaker 1: City is far and born. I think you know, it's
Speaker 1: about thirty five percent of California's you know is far
Speaker 1: is farign Born. And all those numbers are growing. There's
Speaker 1: a huge growth in migration globally, one in five of
Speaker 1: migrants globally or in the United States. There is a
Speaker 1: big growth of farm population and it's change. Asian population
Speaker 1: has grown dramatically as well, obviously, as well as Hispanic
Speaker 1: and there is a you know, it's part of what
Speaker 1: America is and if we are actually going to get
Speaker 1: the most out of it and be economically competitive, we
Speaker 1: also have to manage it. And by the way, when
Speaker 1: we presented to this focus group with Coca colad you know,
Speaker 1: in which they had America the Beautiful sung you know,
Speaker 1: in multiple languages, because we use that as a you know,
Speaker 1: a test for sassacious guys. Lasting gu about half kind
Speaker 1: of accepted it with you know that, you know the
Speaker 1: and we're comfortable with it. You know, some I'm saying,
Speaker 1: that's the way it should be. We're gonna be unified,
Speaker 1: We're you know the so you know so that Now, look,
Speaker 1: there's some that aren't going to be. But there's a
Speaker 1: you know, a significant number that you know, they're living
Speaker 1: in America that is amority majority. I know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know that ad you're referring to. And it's sort
Speaker 1: of a celebration of pluralism. And what you're saying is
Speaker 1: some of the folks you were talking to celebrated it,
Speaker 1: but plenty of them didn't and felt that this pluralism
Speaker 1: quote unquote is threatening to the country and to its values.
Speaker 1: Let's remember the countrywide, you know, about two to one
Speaker 1: people believe immigrants are helpful to the country, not that
Speaker 1: they create a heavy burden on jobs and public services.
Speaker 1: And by the way, you need to cut across race
Speaker 1: on this because it's you know, lot of African American
Speaker 1: groups that I do. There's you know, there's concern about
Speaker 1: you know, immigration as well. Don't assume it's only white
Speaker 1: working class voters, you know, who are focused on this.
Speaker 1: This has been such a tumultuous period. It seems to
Speaker 1: me if you listen to the news, radio, television, you
Speaker 1: read your information online. But most accounts indicate that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump has had a very tough few weeks. Russia, wire
Speaker 1: tapping his tweets, healthcare reform, alienating allies, striking deals with companies,
Speaker 1: turmoil and the White House. Uh, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of infighting, leaks, unprecedented leaks happening. But these voters, um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be affecting them because there's no
Speaker 1: buyer's remorse, is there. Well, look, let's let's accept that
Speaker 1: it's two months into this, even as tumultuos, as crazy
Speaker 1: as this period is, you know, it's still two months
Speaker 1: and they look, they think there's a civil war in
Speaker 1: the country. They think that people that are protesting, you know,
Speaker 1: in the streets, you know, or just to have not
Speaker 1: accepted the election. And so they still think that they
Speaker 1: are trying to stop him from governing successfully. And they're
Speaker 1: not convinced Republicans and Congress are really for him either.
Speaker 1: They feel in casting their vote for Trump, they were
Speaker 1: voting for huge change. It was a major slap in
Speaker 1: the face at the establishment of both parties, and they're
Speaker 1: looking for big, big, big change. They could be disillusioned,
Speaker 1: you know, but not now. Certainly. When I did these groups,
Speaker 1: you know, a few weeks ago, this you know, this
Speaker 1: is still playing out in their minds. And my guess
Speaker 1: is when we go out and listen to voters and
Speaker 1: again in the next couple of weeks, that will still
Speaker 1: be true. You know, that they are defending the you know,
Speaker 1: their vote for Trump. So I think this will erode
Speaker 1: it in time, but not now. And this goes to
Speaker 1: an interesting question stand about how they're going to judge
Speaker 1: President Trump moving forward. That is, does he actually need
Speaker 1: to deliver for them personally in order to be perceived
Speaker 1: as successful by them? You know, I actually do think
Speaker 1: it needs to deliver. I mean, I don't think they
Speaker 1: were faked into vote voting for Trump. They think he's
Speaker 1: a strong leader, they think he'll go after the establishment.
Speaker 1: But i've you know, but there's some evidence here that
Speaker 1: if in fact, the health care law you know, ends
Speaker 1: up making I mean they're I mean they're counting health
Speaker 1: their premiums, they're deductibles to the penny, and they go
Speaker 1: around the room. I mean, they know what their healthcare costs,
Speaker 1: what their insurance cost they they're they're not going to
Speaker 1: be fooled by health care plan you know that raises
Speaker 1: their deductibles. You know, they think he's gonna make health care,
Speaker 1: their insurance both better and cheaper and more affordable. And
Speaker 1: if that doesn't happen, Stan, I thought it was interesting
Speaker 1: that your reports said they would blame Congress, not Donald Trump. Well,
Speaker 1: they blame Congress if if nothing happens, I think if
Speaker 1: you know the you know, I think there, yes, I
Speaker 1: think the reason to think that they will blame Congress
Speaker 1: because they you know, they we put pictures of Ryan
Speaker 1: and McConnell there for them to look at it, and
Speaker 1: they're really quite hostile to them, and they know they
Speaker 1: you know, that the establishment didn't support him, and so
Speaker 1: I think they have a ready interpretation for stuff not
Speaker 1: getting done. But I don't think that's the same thing
Speaker 1: as if they actually passed this Ryan bill in the House.
Speaker 1: Once you've passed that and he's fought for it, I
Speaker 1: think maybe I think he owns the specifics of it
Speaker 1: in very different ways. Obviously, if it were to be enacted.
Speaker 1: If in fact, the healthcare replacement is what Donald Trump
Speaker 1: has supported and ultimately it hurts those voters rather than
Speaker 1: helps them, do you think they'll have a change of
Speaker 1: heart about him specifically? Yes, I do, And I keep
Speaker 1: in mind, these are if you look at the voters
Speaker 1: who came out for you know, Trump, they are about
Speaker 1: half of them are you know, we're ad voted for Obama,
Speaker 1: but about half of them hadn't voted in the in
Speaker 1: the twelve presidential election. So he brought out people that
Speaker 1: were new voters. Not a new registrants, but you know,
Speaker 1: but a lot of new voters. You know that he
Speaker 1: really got their attention, you know, particularly in the rust
Speaker 1: belt where he promised him change on trade and immigrate
Speaker 1: and other things and and and repealing and replacing the
Speaker 1: Affordable care at I think that, you know, they're more
Speaker 1: likely to not vote than and certainly in the off year.
Speaker 1: You know, it's gonna be I think challenging for Republicans
Speaker 1: to get these voters to come vote, to support the
Speaker 1: Republican members of Congress, you know, to make sure they
Speaker 1: can stay there, you know, doing Trump's agenda, because they
Speaker 1: don't think they're with him on his agenda. They don't
Speaker 1: like them, they don't they view them as part of
Speaker 1: the establishment who fought you know, fought him so so
Speaker 1: I think the first effect, you know, is to pullback
Speaker 1: from the Republicans in Congress, which hurts in the midterms.
Speaker 1: The second effect is just to disengage, you know, because
Speaker 1: they were you know, when they began to see the
Speaker 1: negatives that we were testing, you could you know, I
Speaker 1: felt almost I felt badly having presented them because some
Speaker 1: of them got really angry, saying that means they're not
Speaker 1: going to be any change. You know, if this is true,
Speaker 1: there's not going to be any change, and they won't change.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take quick break and when we come back,
Speaker 1: we're actually going to hear from a voter in Chicago
Speaker 1: who was a staunch Democrat her entire life and jump
Speaker 1: ship for this election and is very passionate about Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: and stand will get your reaction to her feelings. That's
Speaker 1: right after this, we're back with Polster Extraordinaire Stan Greenberg.
Speaker 1: Do you like that title? Is that what your cards are?
Speaker 1: Stand Change, I'll change my website. Well, let's talk to
Speaker 1: someone who supported Donald Trump in the election. Her name
Speaker 1: is Janet Saulisbury. She's from Chicago. She is white, she's
Speaker 1: a single mom, and she's not the classic rural, white
Speaker 1: working class voter. But she has a lot to say
Speaker 1: about weis she switched from Barack Obama to Donald Trump. Janet,
Speaker 1: are you on the line. I'm here, nice to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Thank you so much for spending some time
Speaker 1: with us on our podcast. Tell us about why you
Speaker 1: decided to vote for Donald Trump and why you still
Speaker 1: support him. Um, you know, it was I've been a
Speaker 1: lifelong Democrat, grew up in an Irish Democratic Catholic family. Um,
Speaker 1: so it was a very very difficult decision. But it
Speaker 1: was actually summer when I was at a reunion with
Speaker 1: my college friends, and it was right when Trump had
Speaker 1: come down the escalator and everybody was just kind of
Speaker 1: like making a joke about it, and it sort of
Speaker 1: just to think, you know, and um, the more and
Speaker 1: more people like ruled him out, I started listening a
Speaker 1: little bit more to him and then saw the whole
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders Hillary thing go on. And I'm probably in
Speaker 1: the category of what woman call exasperated. Um and so yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was exasperation. I felt nobody's listening to me,
Speaker 1: nobody's trying to reach out to me and my concerns. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I just it was a shaker. So it
Speaker 1: was let's shake it up because what we're doing isn't working.
Speaker 1: And one of the things you were most concerned about
Speaker 1: was your health care. Oh absolutely, Um. I worked for
Speaker 1: a very small family health company. UM. So we don't
Speaker 1: you know, our health plans change year to year, and
Speaker 1: I'm lucky that I do have some employee contribution to
Speaker 1: my health care, but I still pay a fair amount um.
Speaker 1: And I have a lot of I have a couple
Speaker 1: of friends who are like in business, other women in
Speaker 1: the business for themselves and just the way that their
Speaker 1: costs have been skyrocketing the last three years. UM. And
Speaker 1: nobody was willing to admit that Obamacare are Affordable Health
Speaker 1: Care Act isn't working and it needs to be fixed,
Speaker 1: you know. And and and then then one day when Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton stood up and I saw it on the news
Speaker 1: and he said, it's not working. The deductibles are skyrocking,
Speaker 1: the premiums are skyrocking. I thought, finally, finally someone's you know,
Speaker 1: hearing what's going on. So hey, Janet, I'm I'm Brian
Speaker 1: and Katie's co host, and I was just curious, how
Speaker 1: do you think about the way the media is covering
Speaker 1: President Trump right now? Um? You know, I have a
Speaker 1: hard time. I'm kind of a news junkie. UM, so
Speaker 1: I used to watch a lot of it. I'm just
Speaker 1: having a hard time even watching it because I just
Speaker 1: think it's so unfair. Um. You know, they're just like
Speaker 1: running after the latest Twitter for the latest thing, and
Speaker 1: just I just want to say, chill, just step back,
Speaker 1: and UM, I think it's just making it even more
Speaker 1: divisive than ever. So I'm very frustrated with that. Stan,
Speaker 1: is that how a lot of your folks you talked
Speaker 1: to him Macomb County felt God And you know, indeed,
Speaker 1: I mean the same. I think the same level kind
Speaker 1: of frustration with the with mainstream news. And it's not
Speaker 1: likely they're going to other news it's more of a
Speaker 1: you know, turn it off, come on, but they I
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's exactly capture is exactly right,
Speaker 1: which is people have not settled. The election is a
Speaker 1: civil war going out there, you know, give him a chance.
Speaker 1: Ll Do you have anything you'd like to ask Janet
Speaker 1: stan Well, what I'm actually focused on is, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're watching what's happening now on healthcare, you know,
Speaker 1: given how important healthcare was, you know, to your vote,
Speaker 1: and the costs and high deductibles, which is exactly what
Speaker 1: people were struggling with, and the Yeah, I absolutely am
Speaker 1: watching that, um. But I am turning it off. A
Speaker 1: lot of other times when I hear Russia, I turn
Speaker 1: it off, um, because that's just to me, that's a distraction.
Speaker 1: That's just throwing a firecracker up in the air and
Speaker 1: making everybody look over there. But I am watching the healthcare.
Speaker 1: I am concerned about what I've heard so far about
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm fifty eight years old and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: like how people in my age group are come out
Speaker 1: on the short end of the stick. But I haven't
Speaker 1: seen a lot of specifics, and maybe I haven't searched
Speaker 1: them out UM, yeah, I am concerned, and that's I
Speaker 1: am definitely watching that with a very close eye. And
Speaker 1: if you don't like a health care plan that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump is supporting, do you think that will be something
Speaker 1: Janet that will change your mind or will you stick
Speaker 1: with him on other issues? UM? I'm kind of a
Speaker 1: wait and see to give it time. UM. I keep
Speaker 1: looking at what was the alternative, and I think the
Speaker 1: alternative would have been gridlock too, But you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'll just have to see what I want
Speaker 1: to see this fleshed out a little bit more. Jenny,
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a question about the budget that
Speaker 1: President Trump put out recently. I'm not sure if you
Speaker 1: follow the news on this, but a lot of the cut,
Speaker 1: a lot of the cuts in that budget, you know,
Speaker 1: affect Trump voters. There are cuts and after school programs
Speaker 1: and counter terror programs and rural development and job training.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just the National Endowment for the
Speaker 1: Arts and foreign aid and traditional areas that m Republicans
Speaker 1: go after. And so I was curious whether that budget
Speaker 1: seemed like a series of good ideas to you or
Speaker 1: did it cause you to question at all your support
Speaker 1: for the president? Um? I frankly, I haven't heard a
Speaker 1: lot about it. I mean, unfortunately, I think you know, again,
Speaker 1: this is where I kind of like get like the media,
Speaker 1: because I'm I'm hearing is, you know, sesame streets out
Speaker 1: and um, different things like that. I have a nineteen
Speaker 1: year old son, so sesame street being out really doesn't
Speaker 1: like play highly into my verdiculous. But then I hear
Speaker 1: things about like meals on wheels, and I know so
Speaker 1: many people. I mean, my mom, you know, God rest
Speaker 1: her so but when she was like she used to
Speaker 1: help deliver her wheels on meals or meals on wheels,
Speaker 1: and I know that that's like like more than just
Speaker 1: providing food to people, it's also you know, giving them
Speaker 1: a lifeline of support. So those types of things concerned me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not like a conservative Republican. I've always
Speaker 1: been more of a moderate Democrat. Um, So I think
Speaker 1: there needs to be some entitlements, um, but those types
Speaker 1: of things to concern me. I wanted to ask one
Speaker 1: last question because Brian stan and I Janet we're talking
Speaker 1: about this. It seems to me for the past week
Speaker 1: and a half or so, since there was a Twitter
Speaker 1: storm about President Obama, wire tapping Trump tower. The media
Speaker 1: has been very, very focused on that allegation, and I'm
Speaker 1: curious if allegations like those and other things are not
Speaker 1: proven true or don't have any basis in fact, would
Speaker 1: that change your opinion of Donald Trump? Or is it
Speaker 1: just not significant enough for you? This is not significant
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, that's just again a distraction, Um,
Speaker 1: I kind of you know, kind of operating the world
Speaker 1: that assume every email could be read, assume everything. So I, um,
Speaker 1: it's just not a big deal to me, And I
Speaker 1: think that I just want them to get to work.
Speaker 1: I voted for Trump as a wake up call. I
Speaker 1: thought it would be a wake up hall for both
Speaker 1: the Democrats and Republicans to get their act together. And
Speaker 1: there's still little children fighting over the sand box. So well,
Speaker 1: I think stan is Janet pretty representative of the voters
Speaker 1: with whom you spoke. I think she looks these people.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I appreciate Janet being so frank about it.
Speaker 1: They're at the edge economically, they're you know, they're they're
Speaker 1: struggling there, and they're angry about a politicians and politics
Speaker 1: that just doesn't listen to them, hasn't listened to them,
Speaker 1: you know, in years and finally someone has spoken to it.
Speaker 1: And there are issues that are really central and healthware
Speaker 1: you know is you know, is one of them, and
Speaker 1: then it raised it. It was a critical piece and
Speaker 1: maybe the dominant piece, you know, in terms of what
Speaker 1: people raised on their own terms of you know, why
Speaker 1: they voted the way and they they're watching. I believe
Speaker 1: they're watching what's happening there. I think they see the
Speaker 1: other stuff. I mean, first of all, they trust him
Speaker 1: on interpreting you know, you know, events and facts and
Speaker 1: what news is right and what facts we should trust.
Speaker 1: They think so much of this is about the nine him,
Speaker 1: the opportunity to bring change um and not accepting the
Speaker 1: election result. And so I think it's probably being interpreted
Speaker 1: in that context, even though I understand that you know,
Speaker 1: you're accusing someone of a of a felony is an
Speaker 1: extraordinary thing. But I think for voters, it's what's happening
Speaker 1: on bringing American jobs, what's doing done for my healthcare?
Speaker 1: And what are we doing to change this corrupt in
Speaker 1: a in a grid locked system which doesn't work for
Speaker 1: working people? Well, Janet, does that sound about right to you?
Speaker 1: That pretty much? Well, we so appreciate you talking to
Speaker 1: us on the phone and giving us your views. I
Speaker 1: I so appreciate your perspective and it was really nice
Speaker 1: to talk to you. Thank you, Janet, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: To stand before we leave this topic, I really wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about your views on what went wrong for
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, inten why she lost the election. And I
Speaker 1: know that you wrote in this memo it you thought
Speaker 1: that her message was too sort of satisfied with the
Speaker 1: status quo about building on progress rather than delivering a
Speaker 1: new economic agenda for swing voters. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you think she should have
Speaker 1: done as opposed to what she actually did. Well, I mean, look,
Speaker 1: there was tactical and strategic malpractice, you know what, every
Speaker 1: which I've written about an others have written about, and
Speaker 1: you just you just want to strangle them when you
Speaker 1: whenever you think about the consequences of of the things
Speaker 1: they got wrong. But at the heart of it, she
Speaker 1: I think maybe overlearned, you know, the lessons of two
Speaker 1: thousand where they think Gore distanced himself from Clinton and
Speaker 1: cost you know, the election in their view and her
Speaker 1: And incidentally, you were the senior strategist to that campaign
Speaker 1: at the end, or the Polster to the campaign at
Speaker 1: the end. Uh the but the they were so determined
Speaker 1: not to have any gap between herself, UM, and the president.
Speaker 1: I think that was important as a primary strategy in
Speaker 1: terms of winning the nomination. But that's what she believes.
Speaker 1: She thought it was a successful you know president and
Speaker 1: his you know, his message to the country as the
Speaker 1: country is doing well, we're moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: you know, build on the progress, um. And you know,
Speaker 1: at critical points she mostly identified with that, and that's
Speaker 1: how she closed the election. And you know, you can't
Speaker 1: listen to you know, Jenny, you can't listen to the
Speaker 1: voices in Chicago or Macomb County without knowing this country
Speaker 1: desperately want to change. I didn't want to just build
Speaker 1: on the progress that you know, for most people meeting
Speaker 1: incomes below where it was in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: You know, they still think about TARP as a corrupt
Speaker 1: deal in which the political class took care of themselves,
Speaker 1: you know, and not working people, not the you know,
Speaker 1: struggling working people in the country. UM. And you know
Speaker 1: she in the convention when she by the way, when
Speaker 1: she united with Sanders and uh, you know, and Warren
Speaker 1: at the convention and her convention speech. In the debates,
Speaker 1: she actually she adopted a bold economic change agenda. UM.
Speaker 1: That won her very strong support, and that was her
Speaker 1: strong Those were the points in which she was viewed
Speaker 1: most strongly and had her biggest lead. UM. But you know,
Speaker 1: after the debates, she never mentioned the economy again. She
Speaker 1: never talked about what she was gonna do with the country.
Speaker 1: She never talked about change. UM. It was more about
Speaker 1: how Trump was unfit to be president. Unfit UM not
Speaker 1: not the right temperament, not the right experience. Is the
Speaker 1: fact it was offending different groups. They purposely did not
Speaker 1: attack him or just qualify him. UM on screwing small
Speaker 1: businesses and workers, using Chinese steel, musing you know, undocumented workers,
Speaker 1: all of the kind of attacks that would undermine him
Speaker 1: as being a job creator, and on the economy, they
Speaker 1: purposely did not do those. I saw some of those
Speaker 1: ads though, stand that said Donald Trump, you know, fixed
Speaker 1: his golf course up or his golf club, whatever it's called,
Speaker 1: and never paid the employees that did it. I saw
Speaker 1: a lot of ads about that. Um. Not it was
Speaker 1: it wasn't how either their campaign or the or the
Speaker 1: outside super practical. Closed. All their ads were about um,
Speaker 1: you know, temperament. The way he treated other people was language,
Speaker 1: why women, That was the whole close. Maybe that was early.
Speaker 1: And also if you look at also the President's closed
Speaker 1: in the final two weekends, which was incomes are up,
Speaker 1: poverties down, We've created millions of jobs. Build on the progress.
Speaker 1: She'll finish the jump. It seems to me though she
Speaker 1: was a bit between a rock and a hard place,
Speaker 1: because people want to change, but she had to associate
Speaker 1: herself with Barack Obama, hoping that the same people who
Speaker 1: voted for him would come out and vote for her her,
Speaker 1: so she couldn't really distance herself from him. And yet,
Speaker 1: as she said, the overwhelming sentiment among many voters was
Speaker 1: throw the bumps out, let's start over. You're absolutely right
Speaker 1: in terms of how conflicted she was, but she she
Speaker 1: created a campaign that had all of Obama's consultants um
Speaker 1: and which was which was self conscious, was to be
Speaker 1: as close as possible to Obama. He had a very high,
Speaker 1: you know, job approval at the end, and what you
Speaker 1: you know, would have thought, would you know it would
Speaker 1: translate you know into you know, strong vote. I'm sure
Speaker 1: she expected to win. Everyone else expected her to win
Speaker 1: in part because of the state of the economy overall approval.
Speaker 1: But you know, underneath the not just underneath, you know,
Speaker 1: had a huge majority saying the country needed, you know,
Speaker 1: big change. And these voters that went for Trump, I
Speaker 1: wanted big change, and a lot of voters pulled away
Speaker 1: from her at the end in the last week. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you look at the data and the exit polls
Speaker 1: that our own polls was in the last week that
Speaker 1: a lot of these working class voters pulled back from her,
Speaker 1: uh and moved to Trump when she did not offer
Speaker 1: anything on the economy at the end. It was very polish.
Speaker 1: It was difficult, obviously, you know, given we're you know,
Speaker 1: the issues you raised, but it was very winnable and
Speaker 1: the country needed that. She needed that kind of endate.
Speaker 1: And what do you say to Democrats who just blamed
Speaker 1: James Comy for the result? Not very helpful. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm look, there's no doubt that she would
Speaker 1: would be president but for Comy and what the FBI
Speaker 1: did in those weeks, there's no doubt at all that
Speaker 1: but for Comy, she would be president today. I believe that.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't but that, but but campaign's campaign's face
Speaker 1: you know, you know, October surprises face huge issues. A
Speaker 1: focused campaign has a direction as a mission is giving
Speaker 1: is telling people where they want to take the country,
Speaker 1: is telling the is making a choice between the candidates
Speaker 1: that is compelling, that gets you to be able to
Speaker 1: win in the key states at the end um, they
Speaker 1: aren't giving that kind of central direction and mission and
Speaker 1: vision that allowed people to look past the other pieces
Speaker 1: of the hacking in the combing. And so while it's
Speaker 1: true that they had an enormous impact, and I think
Speaker 1: decisive impact, that doesn't mean you lose. You still have
Speaker 1: a You still need to give people a reason to
Speaker 1: vote for you and a choice, which they didn't do ultimately,
Speaker 1: So Stan, let's close our conversation by talking about the
Speaker 1: future and what Democrats should do now. And this kind
Speaker 1: of takes me back to Macomb County. Are white working
Speaker 1: class Midwesterners really the future of the party or should Democrats,
Speaker 1: as some have argued, turned to the sun belt because
Speaker 1: I mean they point to stuff like, you know, Hillary
Speaker 1: only lost Arizona by three and a half and she
Speaker 1: lost Ohio by eight. You know, I've written a book
Speaker 1: about them called America send you know that talks about
Speaker 1: these trends, and these trends are accelerating. You know, everything
Speaker 1: we're talking about is accelerating. That is the concentration of
Speaker 1: the GDP, you know in the metro and the metro areas.
Speaker 1: You know, the growing farm population, all of these trends
Speaker 1: are accelerating. Growing diversity, multiculturalism in this you know, in
Speaker 1: the cities. All these things are the future. There's no doubt.
Speaker 1: Millennials are increasing, you know, you know, part of the population,
Speaker 1: and any you know, democratic strategy has to embrace you know,
Speaker 1: that majority. But there's two pieces of that. Those voters
Speaker 1: themselves are also struggling economically. We're not if you look
Speaker 1: at millennials and and and being weighed down, you know,
Speaker 1: by debt. If you look at the parts of our base,
Speaker 1: the working class parts of our base included unmarried with
Speaker 1: single women who are quarter of the electorate, you know,
Speaker 1: they are struggling economically, and they're looking for Democrats to
Speaker 1: have an economic message and to be doing addressing issues
Speaker 1: that matter to them. So I don't I think it's
Speaker 1: a false choice. There was I embrace the New America.
Speaker 1: And that's where you know, that's where we're gonna you know,
Speaker 1: build our majority, but we don't get them, we don't
Speaker 1: maxim mize our support even there unless we understand what's
Speaker 1: happening to working people, you know, black, white, you know, brown.
Speaker 1: You know, this is a you know, a broad problem
Speaker 1: you know that's still you know that runs through this
Speaker 1: country and they are they do feel forgotten. And so
Speaker 1: part of Democrats winning is also being seen to recognize
Speaker 1: that working people you know, are you know, are you know,
Speaker 1: are struggling And this is a we are fifty states
Speaker 1: now there are a lot of Southern states which we
Speaker 1: aren't going to win. But this is a you know,
Speaker 1: a constitutional system, and would you have lots of states,
Speaker 1: would you like senators and do reapportionment in which rural
Speaker 1: areas and and and and small town areas play a
Speaker 1: big part in those states. And you can't win in America,
Speaker 1: you can't govern in America unless you both embrace the
Speaker 1: new America but also find ways to really represent working
Speaker 1: Americans who feel unrepresented. Do you think stand the secret
Speaker 1: sauce for politicians of the future will be understanding this changing,
Speaker 1: rapidly changing job market, how people can earn a living
Speaker 1: and how they're going to move from manufacturing to a
Speaker 1: different kind of economy. Yeah, I do. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's a secret. I don't know if it's a
Speaker 1: secret sauce. But you're you're right to raise it. And
Speaker 1: so Democrats, I think, do have an opportunity help because
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure what Trump is real. You know,
Speaker 1: I know he's talking. You know, he'll badge your companies
Speaker 1: into building plants supposedly, you know, in America. But the
Speaker 1: question is are there really going to be you know,
Speaker 1: mind coal mines, you know, reopening you know under Trump,
Speaker 1: how much auto employment is going to come in these
Speaker 1: new factories a trivial amount if you look at the
Speaker 1: projective job growth in manufacturing, you know, even with Trump's
Speaker 1: you know scenario. And so the bigger opportunity for progressives
Speaker 1: is recognized that Trump is not real. He's not real
Speaker 1: on trade, He hasn't you know, he didn't do what
Speaker 1: he said he would do in currency manipulation. Trade barriers
Speaker 1: are not the answer. Tariffs are not the answer, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, going forward. So I think I think we're
Speaker 1: gonna find that the Republicans that maybe even Trump, are
Speaker 1: pretty empty in the end when it comes to how
Speaker 1: you address these issues. And I do think then it
Speaker 1: will turn to Democrats, um and I think this is
Speaker 1: a real opportunity. I don't want to have Donald Trump
Speaker 1: as present for years to get that opportunity, you know,
Speaker 1: But think about had she won and what a struggle
Speaker 1: that would have been in office and what the off
Speaker 1: year and twenty elections would look like. I actually think
Speaker 1: you are going to have both an eighteen and twenty
Speaker 1: in particular, a chance for Democrats to really be pretty
Speaker 1: bold and real about how you really do have a
Speaker 1: prosperity that you know, raises all you know, all ships,
Speaker 1: you know, not the kind of prosperity that Trump is
Speaker 1: talking about. And stand there's obviously a big debate within
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party about what the message ought to be
Speaker 1: going forward. You've had a lot of praise about the
Speaker 1: Warren Sanders wing of the party. You wrote in your
Speaker 1: memo that that's the kind of change the voters are
Speaker 1: hungry for. But Democrats, as you know, are increasingly dependent
Speaker 1: on college educated professional voters in the suburbs and metropolitan areas.
Speaker 1: And are you concerned that the Democrats are going to
Speaker 1: move too far to the left and alienate voters that
Speaker 1: that the party now needs. Well, will that be interesting? Look,
Speaker 1: I think this is a Uh the problem you're talking
Speaker 1: about is is one that comes from riches of opportunity
Speaker 1: because you have an increasingly diverse American and and Donald
Speaker 1: Trump is not going to you know, change change that,
Speaker 1: and and many of those look to a Democratic party
Speaker 1: that's open to you know, multiculturalism, um, and a kind
Speaker 1: of economic dynamism which riches you know everyone. Um. It
Speaker 1: also includes the affluent suburbs, which are voting increasingly Democratic,
Speaker 1: not just in this election but over time. But also
Speaker 1: it has to include a lot of working people, a
Speaker 1: lot of people in our base, you know, our work people.
Speaker 1: It was not you know. The what we have to
Speaker 1: recognize is that a majority of whites art without a
Speaker 1: four year degree. They pulled back under the Obama presidency.
Speaker 1: And part of the deal has to be you know,
Speaker 1: winning those voters. Otherwise you can't win you know, across
Speaker 1: the country. Uh. And even can't be assured of the
Speaker 1: kind of electrical electric college majority, you know, the landslide
Speaker 1: they would like to achieve. But can Democrats win those
Speaker 1: voters without alienating the more moderate professional voters that they've
Speaker 1: increasingly come to rely upon. I'm skeptical that that that
Speaker 1: is that big a trade off. Bernie Senators was very
Speaker 1: strong in the in the primary, mainly because he made
Speaker 1: reform his central peace. Uh that he you know, he
Speaker 1: said he was going to clean up politics. If he
Speaker 1: said it was one policy that he would address, it
Speaker 1: would be going after money and you know, money and politics,
Speaker 1: because that's what corrupts it. That is like a point
Speaker 1: of entry for everyone in the Democrat coalition. You gotta
Speaker 1: clean up money in politics. You gotta reform politics. And
Speaker 1: so I think there's a reform agenda um that you
Speaker 1: know that you know carries uh, you know across It
Speaker 1: is true the college educators are more pro trade. But
Speaker 1: when you get to a whole variety of other policies,
Speaker 1: you know, including education, job training, investment, and infrastructure. UM,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's such a such a trade off.
Speaker 1: I'd be surprised, you know, if those who are running
Speaker 1: from that wing you know, of the party, um, you know,
Speaker 1: aren't able to reach voters across the primary elector Well.
Speaker 1: I think one thing is certain. Stand these are fascinating times,
Speaker 1: and I think unsettling times for Americans all across the
Speaker 1: political spectrum because the country is so divided, and it
Speaker 1: will be really interesting to see how this all shakes
Speaker 1: out and what's going to happen in Maybe you'll come
Speaker 1: back and do our podcast. I promise, I promise. After
Speaker 1: the after the landslide, old reformists win for Democrats are
Speaker 1: now going to be under pressure to deliver. Stan. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Brian. Would you like to whisper sweet
Speaker 1: nothings to your friends Dan, because as I said at
Speaker 1: one point, you, Bryan and Stan, you need to get away.
Speaker 1: It's so excited about that. She gives me more abuse
Speaker 1: for respecting your work over the years. It's really you know,
Speaker 1: she's created a hostile work environment. I have to say,
Speaker 1: we have to talk about this on the side. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a different conversation. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on the show as usual. A huge thank you to
Speaker 1: Giana Palmer for producing our show and for editing the
Speaker 1: hell out of this one. By the way, also to
Speaker 1: Zack diner Stein not Dak zeiner Stein, Zack diner Stein
Speaker 1: for mixing and engineering, and to Ryan Connor for engineering
Speaker 1: assistance in l A and Dave Shaw for his help
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And thank as always to our
Speaker 1: social media maven Alison Bresnik, and to Emily Bena for
Speaker 1: her part in producing the show. Thanks to our fantastic
Speaker 1: intern Nora Richie and Mark Phillips. Thank you for our
Speaker 1: fantastic theme music. I know that Katie sings it in
Speaker 1: the shower. I love it. I'm going to buy the CD.
Speaker 1: Do they still make c ds? You can buy it
Speaker 1: on iTunes or something. Katie Currik, Mitch Simul and I
Speaker 1: are the executive producers and we're not just saying this, folks.
Speaker 1: We really do love hearing from you. And remember you
Speaker 1: can also email us at comments at correct podcast dot
Speaker 1: com be nice, or you can find me on social
Speaker 1: media to be nice there as well. I'm Katie Curic
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram and Katie dot Kuric on Snapchat.
Speaker 1: For the four people who are interested, I am at
Speaker 1: Goldsmith Be on Twitter. And best of all, you can
Speaker 1: rate and review the show on iTunes. We really appreciate
Speaker 1: your feedback and uh we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 1: Bye everyone, Bye, Brian, Bye on Cotten. Move to w
Speaker 1: U